[music] This is exactly right. [music] [music] [music] Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia. This is the show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case updates and topical cultural references. Today, we're rewinding to episode 119, which we named, "Fingers Everywhere." [laughter] This episode originally came out on May 3rd, 2018. Let's listen to the intro of episode 119. [crashing noise] - Oh, hello and welcome. - Oh, hello and welcome. - Hi, welcome. [laughter] - Are you saying that to me? - I'm reiterating. - Oh, because welcome to you. - Welcome to you, Karen. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Everyone, to my favorite murder, the podcast. - This is a podcast where we talk about true crime, you know, and everything else under the sun. - Everything we can even imagine. - Oh my God, we're getting into a lot of religious stuff, aren't we? [laughter] - Spirituality. - I'm more spiritual than religion. - I'm not religious. - Is it more spiritual? - No, but I hear people saying that on dates behind me at restaurants all the time, and I just want to punch them in the face. - I love to sit behind a date where they were like, I am strictly religious and I think spirituality is wrong. - Yeah. - I'm here for the rules and the books, and I don't care about the soul or the feeling. - I would be relieved to hear that. - Yeah, that's right. - In LA, you'll never hear that in LA. - I witness, I feel like in LA, in LA, I witness so many Tinder dates or like coffee mites. - Yeah. - And I get, I get so involved. - Oh, like how? - Well, I'm a humongous eavesdropper. - Oh, yeah. - I'll fucking eavesdrop on anybody too. - How can you not, like, it's not eavesdropping, it's listening to the conversation going on. That is going on way too loudly. - Always, me or you. - Because it's a city full of actors. And everybody thinks they should be heard. - Right. - But then they're talking about stuff. - That they think is unique and interesting. Like us, for example, on this podcast, right? Like true crime. - Well, let's talk about it if you're not gonna record it. - No, it's murder. - No, it's murder. - You know what makes me, it's because I have a problem with vulnerability. So when two people are sitting in front of each other, trying to present themselves as fears my most interesting, it makes me want to vomit into the closest garbage can for seven hours. I'm sorry, the garbage can, 'cause there's also a composting can and there's also a recycling. And there's also the coffee place I go to has an area to put your coffee sleeve in to recycle the sleeve. - Oh, okay. - Which I think has to be definitely against health codes. But I do it anyways. - Oh, well, my, first of all, my vomit would definitely go into composting. - Sure. - 'Cause that's just gonna churn up all of the-- - You don't need plastic bottles. - The acid is gonna break down all of those egg shells. - 'Cause every place you go into here has three bins and you sit there and stare at them and I'm going on a tie-rate. Go on. - Three bins, 17 actors. Everybody's trying to hook up. - Yeah. - And yeah, and then if you want to reuse a coffee sleeve, wait, now, is that voluntary or they're just going to reuse those coffee sleeves and you don't know about it as the person buying what you think is a new coffee with a new sleeve? - I bet you think it's new and it's not new. - You think that's true? - Look, with dirty fingers all over it? - No, I'd rather burn my fingers. - Your fingers are where you put, you put your fingers everywhere. - I put my fingers everywhere. - Do you know? - Do you know? - You know that about me. - I'm confronting you. That's how I meant that sentence. - God damn tour with me. - I meant to see me in airports. - Putting your fingers everywhere. - Oh, shit, okay. All right. - Speaking of which, and I'm sorry for the segue, someone started a hashtag Hot for Holes and it is wrong, it's filthy, it is, it's making us look bad. - Say what you think of. - And it is the funniest thing I've ever seen. - Hot for Holes is obviously our love of our lives. - Paul Holes. - The criminologist who solved the Golden State Killer among many people. - But you know he would defer, oh no, oh no, no. I didn't do anything. - He did. - You know anyway, someone made like a, it looks like a science project poster board thing of just photos of him, cut out photos of him all over it. - I believe I can find that under the hashtag Hot for Holes. - I bet you fucking can. He's wearing all different kinds of Oakley blades and all different sun settings. - Someone else made a really good point. They posted a photo of him. They saw him in an old episodes of like forensic files and said he's aged well 'cause he doesn't look so hot as a young man. - Oh shit. - I agree. He looks, I would have, I would have fucking punched his pukeshell wearing face in the fucking face. Like he just didn't look that hot. - You're not into early Paul Holes. - No, I'm in the later stages. Like he looks like he's been hanging out on, what's the island with the tequila, what's the guy sings in Hawaii? - No, Margaritaville? - No, yes, no, no, no, no, the one with Steven's Island, Margaritaville? - Steven's Island. You know the one with the Cabo? - Yes. - That don't feel it. - That's an island. - We gotta go and turn to Mexico. - Edit this out. - Yes, he definitely has vacationed along Baja California. - But here I have to say, first of all, I was talking to my sister on the phone this morning, and she called Paul Holes the Indiana Jones of criminology. And she got, I couldn't stop laughing at the cheese. She goes, I'm not kidding. I like, wrote, I love you on my eyelids as I was watching this interview 'cause he gave, she gave some hour long interview on KTVU, which is our channel to our home station of a Pokemon, which we grew up watching. There's only one too. - That's amazing. - And so she called me this morning to give me the basically the love down. - That is the best description of anyone I've ever heard in my life. - Am I right? - Yes. - Laura. - Laura plus. - Laura plus. - Also, it's funny because Laura is not interested in true crime whatsoever. She's just taking this ride with us. - Love it. - But so she gets into it 'cause she knows we go crazy. - My sister too, I don't think she gives two shits, but she's happy that I'm finally getting my need for attention meds. So she doesn't have to deal with. - We really are. - We don't have any guys anymore, yeah. - Have you ever wanted more attention in your life? - Oh my God. - Anyway, salute to Paul Holes. - Yeah. - Speaking of what? - I don't know, a pick one. - DNA? - Just a couple? - Yeah, go DNA. - Okay, so Stephen just sent us as we walked in to class. That's what I'm calling this today. A link, so people are losing their ship because it comes out that they found the Golden State Killer by getting the familial DNA off some fucking person that was like, "I wanna know what. " - Yeah. - You know, like, from fucking wherever. - Just tell yourself your Dutch Spanish. - Yeah, whatever you think you are, I learned this by submitting my DNA to 23 and me. You're whatever you think you are. What else is there? So someone was like, "What am I?" And they sent their DNA in to a half rate fucking company that didn't have the protection that 23 and me has and all these other, and andstustory.com has that are like, "We won't give your fucking DNA away." - Well, they actually said though, I read an article where they had in their disclaimer, it said, "If you're afraid you may have committed a crime "or you don't wanna be searched, "we do not keep these DNA profiles out of that." So don't submit your, and that that's always been their customer service thing. - It really annoyed me that last week, so I took myself off Twitter 'cause I just couldn't handle it anymore, but so the last thing I saw was like, what does this mean for our public safety, a blah, blah, blah, and it's like, no, it wasn't a big fucking company. It's not like a big deal, it's not everyone, calm fucking down everyone. Let's talk about this murderer and what he did instead. That'd be great. So, but they're gonna run Zodiacs. Steven told us DNA through this company. - Yes, that'll be fine. - No, they, I saw that article. They said they aren't saying what company they're running. - Oh good, 'cause someone's gonna kill them. Some old man is about to kill himself tonight. - Right. - Only sees that. - Well, let's keep our eye out for any. How old would it be now in his late 90s? I mean, that would be exciting. It would be very cool. I agree with the people who are worried about there have to be restrictions or there has to be privacy. If you are spitting on a piece of cotton and sending it to some company, 'cause you wanna find out just how Dutch you are. Fuck you, you're on it. You're, then you're in the mix, you're in too late, you're done. And also, you know, like if they, they have to have probable cause. You know our boy, Paul Holes, lined it up so that it's like this thing. If they were gonna do it and get the answer from a certain, in a certain way. And I understand how outsiders don't trust this. I trust Paul Holes. He did it by the book 'cause they don't want it to fall apart in court. - Well, you know Sally, yeah, exactly. And you know Sally Holes, or Sally Holes. Oh my God, who's Sally Holes? - I was gonna say that you know Sally and HR at whatever fucking DNA company who like Paul Holes came up to her and was like, I'm gonna tell you why you're gonna do this. Like I need this. And she was just like, "I love you!" - There was no chance. - I love Sally Holes. - And then she wrote Mrs. Sally Holes over and over again.
That's what I was gonna say. My favorite. My favorite thing is so many people are now writing dirty jokes. Like, I got one the other day where I was like, what, I thought I was being trolled. Whereas like, I'd like to investigate some of these holds where I'm like, oh, I get it. People are really experimenting with their blue comedy with this specific combination of nouns. - Well, all we need to do is add them to Karen's list of men she loves with last names that are. - Nouns. - Nouns. - Yeah, it's just, we've got Jimmy Buttons. - Buttons. - We've got Paul Onions. - Onions. - Now, we've got Mr. Holes. - There's one other one. Someone made it really gay, like Jackets. - But Jackets was a bad guy. - Oh yeah. - I don't love that guy. - Okay. - Well, he was one of yours. - He was one of yours. - He is one of characters in my universe. But he's not canon. Oh, what I was gonna talk about is yesterday in Los Angeles we had a high speed chase. - Right, I didn't see that. - With a Winnebago. - And it was. - Explain that to me. How high speed does this, like what is high speed definition? 'Cause. - Well, think about it in LA. You can't fucking get anywhere over 35 miles an hour. So there was a Winnebago going 55 up. I think it did a 5134-170 transition. - Oh, you can't do that in more than 10 miles an hour. The whole time. - Well, this thing was flying us. The Freeway. I saw it Brandy Posey, our friend from the great podcast lady to lady. She tweeted it, we've got a live one and then posted the link. And I was at the mall and I pulled out my earbuds, sat down and watched the live feed at the mall because I was like, what? - I did not know you were that kind of girl. - I love a high speed chase. - They worry me. - I don't like them, they worry me. - They're worrisome, that's part of what I love. Like I can't take my eyes off it. And Steve and I were just talking about, they happen in LA a lot because we've got a lot of freeways and a lot of action, but it turned out. So my friend, Dan Telfer, was also a comic. - So I like him on Twitter. - He's hilarious. - He's a great writer. He used to work on Atman Night and he's just cool. And he's listened to us from the beginning. - Thank you, Dan. - And supported. So anyway, he got in. - What if he was unsupported about? - He's listened to us highly critical most of what we do. - He hates us. - No, he was in a, my name is Brandy's conversation and then at one point sent the follow up article about what had happened and it's very dark because it's this guy who was a registered sex offender running sex with children under the age of 14. - Stop it. - And he was in that when a begot with his three year old son and 11 month old daughter. They had been, they were from, I wanna say, they were from Washington state or Oregon state and they were down in San Diego, I believe, and there and something happened and he took off with the kids. And he was on the phone with his mother and his wife the whole time and he got ended up getting arrested, the kids are safe. - He's at that Bell and he has a mother and a wife? That's not fair. - Oh, sorry, can I do a sidebar? - Absolutely. - From that story. I had just gotten a coffee at Starbucks in the mall. And as I was ordering my coffee, the girl I was talking to, I saw her writing, you know, Starbucks, they write your order on the dirty sleeve. - Can I say before he say anything? I know the other side of the story because she posted it on Facebook. - Oh, then I was gonna tell you the other side's story because my friend Vicki, as I was shopping, sent me what she posted. - Oh, okay, so you're in, okay, so you're in Starbucks, you see it's writing a thing down on the dirty sleeve. - I see her and I'm like giving my order, which is a little bit confusing. - But it's a double tall, one pump mocha. - Okay. - So as people are always like, what? But it's like, they put too much double. - If it's that small, they put too much. - Yeah, you want a double, you want it, not that big. 'Cause you don't want them to come out. And you want only one pump of mocha, please. - Just a nice suggestion of mocha, don't drown me. - Yeah. - So she's writing it down, but I see that she does all that, you know, M and one and all. And then I see her write SSD. Then she does a weird thing and then throws it away. - And I was about to go, wait, were you gonna, and I was gonna do the confundee confrontation. But then she, I don't know, something else happened, there was, there was a lot happening. So I didn't confront her, I thought it'd be funny, but there was a bunch of people in line, whatever. Then, so in her new one, she just rewrites the order, again, and sends it. Then the order goes through her boss, I'm standing over there waiting, and then her boss, or the person making it, and I found it, it was her boss after. Goes, do you want, we're cream on this, and I said no thanks, which the person who was ringing me up already asked, and I said no. But she didn't remember to put it on the second sleeve. So then she gets yelled at for not putting it on the sleeve. And I was about to go, again, about to, but didn't do it. I was about to go, oh no, she asked me, I just, she, you know, like she did ask me that. Then I was like, I can't get involved. Then high-speed chase, I'm drawn away. Then my friend, Vicki Ernst, who lives in New York, it's those the funniest part, and was far away from me. She sends me a text that goes, I don't understand what your life is now, and then it's the Facebook post from Rachel. - What does it say? - She says, I normally don't get rattled when it's celebrity comes to Starbucks, but it's LA and it happens. - No brag, no brag. No brag, yeah, now reading this on stupid, but she basically said, I lost my mind on the inside. My hands were shaking, that's not true. I didn't see any hands shaking. I was so nervous, tried to sneak an SSDGM on the cup, but couldn't. Worst of all, my supervisor chastised me in front of her. Embarrassment level, 10,000. Well, that was my Tuesday, maybe next time I'll be cooler. Rachel, you couldn't have been cooler. There was no indication on your face, or anywhere that you knew who I was or anything, to the point where, when I saw you starting to write SSD, I didn't want to be the asshole who was like, are you writing my thing, so I just didn't say anything. That's how cool you were. So don't worry about it, you'll be able to handle it. - Yeah, next time, just give Karen a free coffee. - And it'll be fine. - Next, I always appreciate people are just like, I'm not reacting to you whatsoever, and thank you for calling me a celebrity. What a joy, Rachel, what a joy. Between that and the high speed chase, fuck. - I mean, I had a power day at the mall. - Power day. - Power day. I was just gonna say a quick corrections corner. I made fun of the posting that was on next, the next door app. Lots of responses about the next wrap, hilarious. I mean, there is so much crazy hilarious stuff on there. People posted some really funny stuff. I made fun of somebody for posting Raccoon in the daytime. We immediately got a response. Again, I'm going to get better about writing people's names down, but day of, oh, for a second, I thought Stephen was holding up a cue card that gave me the person's name. Somebody immediately responded, if you see a Raccoon in the day, they probably have Ravies. (laughing) - I am one member. And then I will go ahead and say, call the non-emergency police number, not 911. - No, do not call 911 if you see your day Raccoon, but don't approach, do not approach a day Raccoon. - You almost gave people Ravies, Karen. - I, if you got Ravies, we want to hear about it. It's like Mori Povitch. Do you have Ravies and your boyfriend cheated on you? - If they're in the fan cult, is there a forum of what we've done, how we've done you wrong? - Yes, we want to, we want to know that I think that does exist actually. - Does it? - Oh shit. I think that's all my current business. - I got nothing. Let's forget the fuck out of here. Steven, who goes first? - Well, last week was the Golden State Killer, but then the week before Karen went first. - Okay, all right, I want to do over. I want me to go first. I want to go first. - You go first. - Okay, great. - And we're back, Karen, the birth of hot for holes. - How do you feel? - What a debacle. What a cultural sinkhole that was. (laughing) - I think this is a great example of us finding out how big our audience was in a very real way. This and that crazy Buzzfeed meltdown about our book announcement, where all of a sudden, people are getting like swarmed. - There's all this reactivity. But this was like the best version of that. - Yeah, yeah, this put Paul holes like front and center where he belongs in his tank top with his, with his fish tank in his, in his facts. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - And just a real person that's about the facts of the case, please. - And the brains totally. It is very satisfying to watch that, even though it wasn't embarrassing at the time, 'cause of the hot for holes itself. - I know that it sounds dumb, but it's hard to remember that this is not a private conversation. (laughing) - So, especially back then in my apartment, like right now, I'm in my little quote office. It's not an office. It's just a fucking room. But like, yeah, it's hard to remember that people are actually listening to this. - Right, we don't hear from anybody. - No. - I mean, except from the Gmail. And if you have stories about Paul holes, please write to us at my favorite
[email protected]. - Well, this is also when you got recognized at the mall at Starbucks. - Oh, yes. - When she wrote us SDGM on the cop. - Yep.
that was the first, like, that was, was 2018, so like two years in and it was like just starting to happen regularly enough. Yes, you know. And from the fashion square mall, which was my home mall for so long, I'd gone to that mall at some of the saddest Christmas shopping I've ever done was at that mall alone. And like, you know, when you have to go do an errand like that, so you just like put a bubble around yourself of like, you know, one will get in and I will get out alive. Yes. There was so many years of that kind of living. And so I really feel like that experience was a special that person was very like seemingly emotional or whatever, but I was too because I'm like this changes the plot here. This is the material way you feel that you are no longer the loser you once were for many fucking years. Yeah, when it started happening regularly in a point like I could expect it in a certain setting like, you know, out to dinner here in LA or whatever or like at an airport for some reason. Yeah. Like that was just this like, I just felt like this huge shift in my life completely. Yeah. That's like been Lizzy and I were at Twain's or whatever that diner is on the corner. And just I was just talking shit. And the girl and the only other people were in the booth behind us. The girl comes up after it's like, I love your podcast. I was like, did I use names? What was I just saying? Why was I saying any of that fucking watch your mouth? But then here's the thing about that. And this is the lamest kind of complaining or whatever, but it is a weird thing to then later have that experience. So then later tell people like, Oh, don't keep your voice down. And then they're like, Oh, really Elvis Presley? Like it makes you look like an asshole. Yeah. Yeah. Or like change names or change information. Yeah. Yeah. This is when I found out about you loving car chases. Oh my god. There really was a period of time. And maybe it's because all of journalism has been suspended in this country. But there really was that local news breaking into television shows to show you a criminal just trying to get away from the LAPD. And it is. It's a very L.A. thing. I think because we're so car centric here. Yeah. You know, there's so many people that like, of course, there's going to be a lot of criminals. Yeah. And a little car crime. Yeah. I hate it. I love it. You hate a high-speed chase? Oh, yeah. I get so nervous about car accidents. Yes. And I just don't. And they never fucking work. No, they never work. They almost never work. They're so fucking dangerous. And like, there's lately, there's been a couple where on the news live, there's like a horrible, you know, killing everybody collision that, like, can't watch that. Isn't it's not the same as that kind of OJ level. Oh my god. What's happening on the 405? Right. Right. It used to be fun. And it can't. It's not fun anymore. They really ruined car chases. But I was just going to say, remember the car chase that ended right behind my house into locally. Yes. Yes. They did get away. That's right. That was the one I saw where they did. Where I was like, I can't believe this is happening. Did I ever tell you about I, this is so weird, but there's a short time in my life where I lived in panorama city, which is like deep, deep valley, like nobody fucking lives there. It's very weird. Was your apartment hot all the time? It was so hot there. It was disgusting. And in the middle of the night, there was a car that drove into a park, a bunch of parked cars like right outside our house. We go outside and X and I. And these two dudes are getting out of the car. And they're like, oh, we'll be right back because of all these neighbors and they clearly had stolen the car and then drunk drove it into a bunch of parked cars. And just fucking casually walking away. Guys, thank you so much for your support. We'll be right back. We'll be right. Yeah. They like really just like good, naturally pieced out. It was like, yeah, they were gone. I mean, I don't know if they ever got caught, but like the cops weren't there, right? George has their citizens arrest just sauntering away from the stolen car accident. Another weird thing about like, you know, if we're going to go on the theme of reflecting on old true crime is the, the DNA conversation back then versus now. Yeah. Like the, oh no, is this going to be a privacy issue thing? Yeah. Or that the reason everyone, like the reason the informed few were so keyed up about data privacy is now making sense to everybody. Right. Right. Where people, you know, identities being stolen, all the things that no one really got before. So then it's like, oh yeah, and then they have your DNA. Yeah. I never, it's funny. I never put my like results into Judd match, which is the one they use for catching, you know, for what's it called genetic genealogy. Right. I just like, something made me stop. And I don't know what it is. I partly that I'm like, there's no way anyone in my bloodline in my fucking like pacifist Jewish bloodline. This is serial killer. Like, I feel like if I were a little more mainstream in my bloodline, I would do it. But like, it's the chance is I can't be high. Or am I being naive? Or are you afraid you're going to get arrested now for shoplifting at thrifty drugstore? Right. For them. I did that when I was a kid. You're lip balms. What were they called? The lip smackers? Bonnie Bell. Yeah. Yeah. Had to have that doctor pepper. Okay. Now let's get into Georgia's story about William Hirons, the lipstick killer. All right. This is one that I hope you didn't do at a live show. Well, let's find out. This is the lipstick killer. William Hirons. Hirons. What's that face? I'm trying to remember. I don't think you did. Okay, great. Yes, there's our own question. Okay, great. It's exactly how I do that. It's a lip balmy thing. I'm like, it would look like I have something bad to tell you. You know, here's here's how I can't tell anymore because we've gone to a bunch of different cities. Yeah. And we've looked up all these people. Yeah. And we've researched these people and then chosen not to do that. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. So we didn't do it a bunch. Yeah. I don't think we did it. Okay, cool. And then there was a time before we had Stephen was with us that we did Chicago or a couple of Chicago shows. So I can't ask Stephen because he wouldn't know. I don't. Fuck it. Fuck it. Once our fucking biography comes out, then we'll also William Hirons is super famous. Is that the correct pronunciation? I've heard of him. And you've seen a million photos of this too. Okay, he looks. They're old photos of him. He looks scary. And you're like, oh, that guy's a murderer because you've seen his photo a million times. Oh, is he? We don't know. Let's find out. Here we go. Right. All right. So the lipstick murders started in Chicago just after the end of World War II. So World War II is over. Everyone's fucking stoked. It's like a great time in America. Oh, this bullshit. So the first murder took place on, so we're at June 5th, 1945. 43 year old Josephine Ross is found dead in her apartment by her daughter. Her apartment's close to Rigley Field in Chicago, obviously. Josephine had been repeatedly stabbed and then her body had been washed by the killer. And all her wounds, this is fucking weird, had been covered with tape. So each of her stab wounds. So if someone was like, oh, fuck, washes her. That sounds like some serial killer shit, right? Yes. Washes her covers each wound with tape and then places her back into bed. Her head had also been wrapped with one of her skirts. Almost like, can't look at your face. But this is the time when they didn't have, you know, criminal profiling or like serial killer wasn't even a term yet. Right. So she had been washed, but her investigator still found a dark hair clutched in her hand. Like she had ripped his fucking hair out of his head as he attacked her. The blood spattered apartment, it had been ransacked, but nothing was missing. And police found no fingerprints and no obvious motive. And they assumed that she had surprised an intruder, but nothing had been stolen. So I don't know about that. Josephine's murder at the time didn't even make front page, the front page news. And at the time there were five big Chicago papers led by the Chicago Tribune, and they all competed for circulation, especially post-war when less shit was going on. But it didn't even make the front page. About six months later on December. Crazy. I know, right? Yeah, that's super crazy. Also just the detail alone of the tape tape, if that was in the newspaper, a million people would look crazy about that. Nope. Not about six months later on December 10th, 1945. A 32-year-old woman, she's a stenographer and she's a former Navy wave, forgot to look that up, who had served during World War Two. Her name is Frances Brown. She's found slumped in her bathtub in her apartment at the Pine Grove Hotel in Chicago. Her, she had been shot in the head, and this is horrible. A bread knife had been driven sideways through her neck with such force that the blade had emerged on the other side. Whoa. I know. She was nude and just like Josephine, she had been washed after being murdered, but he left her at the side of the bathtub for some reason. And her head was wrapped in towels. Ooh. So it was kind of a similar thing. And again, the apartment had been clear, had been wiped clean of fingerprints, but this time someone
had left a message on the wall of the apartment, written in lipstick, and it said in like crazy person writing. - Yeah. - It said, "For Heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more, I cannot control myself." Do you wanna see the photo? - Yes, please. - Okay, here you go. We'll put it up on her. - And this is like insane. - I love when any story is parallels the movie seven. - Oh yeah. - It does exactly like that. - That's, I didn't even think about that. - Okay, here's, it's like written like a crazy person. - Okay. - And we'll put it up on Twitter and all the places. - You know why, can I just say? - Yeah, 'cause as a handwriting analyst. - Expert, yeah. - It's combining capital letters, lowercase letters, and cursive, the cursive parts creepy. - Curse of Ls in the middle of like a regular block. - Yeah. - Everything about this says, I don't know what the fuck is going on from second to second. - Right, right. Or am I trying to make it look like I don't know what I'm doing from second to second? - I guess that's true, but it's very effective. - It is. - I don't like a loose cursive L is very inert. - Right, and is it some of the letters like fucking Toys of R.S. style like backward and forward too? - No, I mean, R.S. like corn style backwards to upset you? - Corn, yes. - It's for heaven's sake. - Yeah, read it. - 'Cause it's like for heaven's sake, curly QC catch me. - So this C is like a spatial spiral. - It almost looks like a lowercase cursive E. - Yes, that's exactly right. Catch me before capital B, capital F, everything else lowercase. - I kill, kill is an unconnected cursive, yeah. - It's all crazy. It's written in fucking lipstick and the press then goes fucking crazy for it. - Also, no punctuation. - And the other thing about this is that because at the time women use the term for heaven's sake a lot, they thought it might be a woman who done this. Which everyone's like, what are you fucking talking about? - That's some poor theorizing. - Everyone now's like, what the fuck? Okay, so this note earned the killer, the name, the lipstick killer by the media, of course, who are now obsessed with it 'cause they have a catching name and two murders that are supposedly linked. Four weeks later, all right. So they're going crazy. They're like, who the fuck is this killer? We don't know. And at the time, it was kind of an innocent era. And so people are doing the whole lock in their doors for the first time thing. Then four weeks later, not about 730 in the morning of January 7th, 1946, in a wealthy section in the north side of Chicago called Edgewater. It was discovered that six-year-old Suzanne Degman was missing from her first floor bedroom. - Did you say six-year-old? - She's just a little fucking sweet, little blonde baby girl. - Young thing is missing. Her window is open and a ladder is placed underneath it outside, so like someone had climbed in and taken her. When they search her room, police find a crumpled note, and this is another fucking psychotically written thing that I have a photo for you. The note says, tells the family to prepare $20,000 ransom, not to notify the police or FBI, and to wait for a word from the kidnapper, but they didn't find it until after, so look at that fucking psychotic note. - Oh, no. - It's similarly written, right? - Yes, it's kind of-- - It's kind of-- - It's kind of a curly-cue ease, but also-- - But the ease are curly. I mean, it's an ease, not a sea. I looked at them and I tried so hard to tell if they were connected or not. - Oh, that police sea is not the same. - Yeah, I don't think it's the same, but it's still capitals and lower cases. - It is. - What a fucking crazy note. - But not like bills, the L's and bills are not cursive. They're not blending the cursive. - To me, that note seems like it was written by someone uneducated, and the lipstick killer one looks like it was someone trying to seem crazy. So that's just my bullshit. - Yeah, this looks like someone who didn't write well. - Yes, and it doesn't look planned because it's so sloppy. - It's really sloppy in the message. - It looks like it was hard to write, right? And words are misspelled too, which the other one isn't. Okay, so they find that note. And then on the reverse side is written, burn this for her safety, right? Okay, so by the evening of her disappearance though, they received some hang up calls about ransom, but they never, they never let go through and they never give details. And by that evening, police receive an anonymous phone call suggesting the police look in the sewers near the Degman residence. Okay, this gets fucked up, ready? - Yes. - Only a block away from the Degman home, they find the severed head of little Suzanne Degman in a storm drain sewer. - Jesus Christ. - I know, this is 1940 fucking six. Like shit, like this does not happen. - This is Chicago? - Yeah. - Wow, yeah, it's so awful. Then they found Suzanne's right leg in a catch basin. They find her torso in another storm drain and her left leg in another drain. Each piece is found further and further away from the home. Like the person was just hiding them along the fucking way. And all the drains had cast iron manhole covers that weighed at least 110 pounds each. - Whoa. - Yeah. Is that heavy? That's heavy, right? - 110 pounds? - Yeah. - It's like picking up a fifth grader. - Okay, I can bench like, pretty, you know. - You could bench like a second grader. - Yeah. That's awful, I'm sorry. This is the whole fucking city goes crazy. This is not, this does not happen. Little girls like this. Like adults, people can deal with it. It's not even front page news. - Well, also this is, this second you said this hurt. I think it, I'm positive I've read this, but when it comes to something, like when the details are that bad and gory, it's hard for us to do those at live shows because it's just so awful. - That's why I was like, I bet we didn't do this because I would remember us talking about this. 'Cause it's so quiet and sad and horrifying. - Yeah, and it's just like, you're right, it was that time where because things were so, things were so, I mean, I feel like we are experiencing this societally, not to get too broad about it, but these days we all know everything. We're desensitized. - Yeah, and we're in it. We're in the mix, which I think is part of the reason this kind of true crime thing is like kicking up in the last 10 years so strongly is because it's like basically going, I'm not gonna pretend anymore, this is real and it's happening. - Yeah, I wanna pay attention to it. - But back then, this was like the war is over by a car, by a house, get a wife, have two kids. - Totally. - Be white. - You can be whatever you want, if you're white. And yeah, so it's that, and everybody's kind of locked and focused on that and not letting go of it. So this is a real aberration. - And it's also the time, and I think you can't tell this story without making it, that with making that a big part of it, what you just said, and also that, you know, it was of course the time, even in fucking Chicago, where children just walked around and worked out all night, and out all day, whatever they wanted, there was, you know, partying and throwing dice and alleys. - Right. - Yeah, but there was, there was a lack of supervision because there wasn't a need for supervision because it was a, you know, a safer world. - Supposedly. - Supposedly a safer world, and it was though, but you know, then something like this happens and it just changes the fucking landscape. - And well, yeah, people can't tell themselves that lie anymore, essentially, is what it is. - Right, and worse possible way to do it. - Exactly. - So they search an apartment building near the location where Suzanne's head was found, and they uncover, and somehow, this is fucking crazy that they found this to me, but whatever, a basement laundry room. And in there are tubs, 'cause it was like, not, I was like, well, what about, why are there four tubs in there? It's like, oh no, they didn't have washing machines. (laughing) A tub is the laundry room. - Yes. - Oh God. They find four tubs, and in the drains, they find blood. - Oh no. - So they find, they think that Suzanne had been dismembered there. The press began to refer to this as the murder room. And that day, Chicago Mayor Edward Kelly also receives a note, and it says, this is to tell you how sorry I am, not to not get old Dignan instead of his girl. So not to kill the dad instead of Suzanne, like I'd rather kill the dad. Roosevelt and the OPA made their own laws, why shouldn't I, and a lot more? So, this is what this means. At the time, Chicago was home to the largest stockyards in the nation of meat animals and shit, you know. - Yep, meat packing. - Stockyards is all about steer. - There you go. - Yep, I'm from Orange County. - Okay. - Yeah. - There was a nationwide meat packer strike going on at the time, and the office of price at administration, so the OPA was their enemy. That's who they were fucking. - Oh wow. - Striking against. - Shit. - Suzanne Dignan's father was a senior executive with the wartime meat regulation board, and had just recently, and so he was part of the OPA, and just recently another OPA executive had received.
the rights against his children. - Fuck. - Yeah. Also, a man involved with the black market, with black market meat, which sounds just horrifying. - I mean, no, but if you marinate it just right, you can barely take it. - That's good for your intestines. - You can really put some meat on your chest. - Old rotten meat that's been sitting out. - Yeah. So he, a man involved with the black market meat, so basically a fucking, what's it, line crosser? What do they call them? Strike breaker, line crosser. - Scab. - Scab had recently been murdered by decapitation. - Oh no. - Yeah, so police considered the possibility that the Suzanne's killer was a meat packer, obviously. Seems to make sense. - I mean, sure. - About the dismemberment, the coroner's expert said, quote, not even the average doctor could be a skillful with the dismemberment, you know, like those. There weren't any hacking marks, that sort of thing. And then he said, it had to be a meat cutter. Like everyone in town, and then this time a period is like stirring some shit up without facts. Like everyone's fucking doing it, including especially the media. - Well, again, I feel like the time that existed before the internet existed when you could immediately fact check that it was just a glorious time for us liars, where you could just kind of say whatever, no one could check it. And if you were a person that was like talking to the media, so you're the mayor, you're somebody high in power, nobody would check it. - You had, there was so much good faith. - And the media and the fucking, this is the time when the media and the police were fucking besties. So the cops would want to like get some shit out to be like, we need to catch this person and hear some information. That could also not be true. - Right. - And it would be printed. - Right. - So it was just a lot of bullshit. So saying that, whatever. - Also the perfect setup for like, - Right. - It was a meat packer. - See where they are. - They are the bad guys. - Oh, you mean the working class guy, the people that don't have a lot of money. - They're striking. - So that they could not work fucking seven hour, seven hour days, no, seven days a week. - Yeah. - You know? - Yes. - Isn't that what they did? Okay. - So, all right. So then with no direct evidence, and this is a time before Miranda writes existed too. - Really? Wow. - Yeah. - They're that recent. - Yeah, I think shit. - Okay. - I should find out about that. - Yeah. - With no direct evidence, police, police were like, you know what? Okay. The janitor at the building where Suzanne lived. Let's fucking get his wife to pressure him into confessing. He's a 65 year old man named Hector Verberg. Verberg, Verberg. She's like, implicate your husband. And she's like, fuck no, what are you talking about? Still, the police told the press that this is the man. Like the police kept, or the press kept him like, we got our guy, we got our guy. He's held for 48 hours of questioning during which time he's been severely and had to spend 10 days in the hospital afterwards. - Oh shit. - He said that any more and he would have confessed to anything. So it's later determined that he is actually a Belgian immigrant. So he couldn't even write English well and have children written the ransom note. He sues the Chicago police department for $15,000 at that time, $15,000. And he's awarded $20,000. - Oh shit. - No, no, no, you're gonna get even more. - The people have spoken. - Yeah, so this is how poorly this investigation is going. A month after Suzanne's body parts had been found and after she had been buried, then her arms are found by sewer workers. So her body is buried without her arms. It's not a month until they find them. - Horrible. - How horrible is that? - By April, 370 suspects had been questioned and cleared and the press is starting to criticize the police's ability to catch Suzanne's killer. So they're turning on each other. - Right, and they're like, they've got the heat on them. Investigators say that they had found two partial fingerprints on the ransom note and one smudged fingerprint on the doorknob at the second crime scene and that experts match the handwriting and fingerprint. They linked everything together. So the two, the murders of the two women who are so different in every way to the murder, the kidnapping and murder of Suzanne are linked. They say that they're all linked. - Yeah. - Which seems impossible to me. - It's almost just like, these are the three most upsetting things that have happened in the city recently. - Right. - We have a more killer. - Yeah, the cells papers. - We're gonna take care of everything at once. - Yeah, I mean, it's a nice idea. - Right, and it's like, it's weird evidence, even if there were like the experts say that the handwriting matches. It's like, that's clearly bunk science. We fucking know that now. And that's not, that's circumstantial evidence. It's not true evidence. Anyways, in late June of 1946, police questioned this fucking creepy ass dude named Richard Russell Thomas. He was a nurse at the time of the investigation. - No judgment on male nurses? - No, no, no, no, no, but he has medical knowledge so he could, oh, he could dismember. - Yeah. - At the time of the, here's judgment time. At the time of the investigation, he's in prison in Phoenix from molesting one of his own daughters. - So judgment. - So full judgment. - Full judgment. - From now on. - But he wasn't Chicago at the time of Suzanne's murder. And a handwriting expert, again, says there's great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the ransom note. And that many of the phrases that was used in the ransom note, the stewed, Richard Thomas, had used previously in an extortion note years earlier in an attempted kidnapping. - Oh. - So he fucking had tried to do it before and has similar phrases and writing. - He pulled down his crime file and he was like, what's my other hand copy, hand paste? - Right. He pulls out his, his like pre-computer, what's a font, murder or serial killer font? - That's right. - Oh, and he had medical training as a nurse. - Blah, blah, blah. - Okay. So, and then during questioning by Chicago, please, he totally admits to killing Suzanne. - Oh. - But I don't know, I don't know about this guy. - Well, 'cause we do know that the other guy got beaten for hours and was in the hospital. - Exactly. - So it could have been just one of those situations. - Right, grain assault. - So they think they have their guy. That is until authorities get a new suspect reported to the paper the same day that this Thomas dude is happening. They find out that a college student was caught fleeing from the scene of a burglary and that when cornered, this guy had pulled a gun on police. And at this time, this Thomas dude had recanted his confession and police let him go. So they're like, this other guy must be our guy. So let's talk about this guy. 17-year-old William Hirons. Hirons. 17. - Yeah. - 17. William Hirons is born. He was born in November of 1928, grew up in Lincolnwood, which is a suburb of Chicago. He's the son of a poor immigrants from Luxembourg and his parents argued constantly as when he was a kid, which made him just leave the fucking house and wander around town. And eventually he started committing petty crimes like burglary, just for fun. He said just to release tension, he would break into houses and steal shit to release shit. It's like, all right, bro. - I mean, have you ever heard of baseball or making a friend? - By 13 years of age, he's arrested for carrying a loaded gun, which he had stolen from a fucking Jesus. - Yeah, he's on a bad path. - That very bugsy Malone. - It is. A search of his house discover, they discover a number of stolen weapons in an old storage shed, along with first suits, cameras, radios, and jolaries he had stolen. He admitted to 11 burglaries and was sent to school for wayward boys for several months. But here's the thing, he never sold anything. He never stole from money. It was almost just like he was bored and wanted to see what he could get away with and do. - Yeah, it was the thrill of it. - Yeah, and he was poor, but he still didn't sell the camera on the street or anything like that. I think he still stole money, but it didn't seem like that was his intent. - So he wasn't a cat burglar. He was like a weird, break-in, peeping tom, maybe type of guy. - Yeah, I don't know about the peeping tom part, but just like-- - Well, like a, how about a nosy Nelly? - A nosy Nelly kid who just like, yeah, who wants to break through rules and get up into people's business. - Exactly. So he gets released and then William Hirons is again arrested for theft and larceny. This time though, he sentenced to three years at a school operated by Benedictine Monks. - Uh-oh. - No, that's what I thought too. It turns out when he's at the school, he fucking flourishes. And it turns out he's smart as fuck. He's an exceptional student, excels in all kinds of crazy fucking subjects that I couldn't do. - Like what Latin? - Yeah, electronics, I don't know. At the time, I could probably do this. - Like, the 1945, you know. But this wire here and that wire there. - Use the phone. - You're now an electronics major. (laughing) - He's super fucking smart. His test scores are so high that he gets admitted to the University of Chicago's experimental school for gifted students. - Oh. - He's enrolled for a Bachelor of Science wanting to become an electronics engineer. So he can use the fucking phone. - He loves that phone. - Calling people all the time. - Hello, it's me, Richard. Can you believe this shit? - Oh, boy, boy. (laughing) - Saying a hoi hoi in a business like voice is the best. - Oh hoi hoi. I mean it.
Right. So he starts in the fall of 1945. He was 16 years old at this point and he started at this fucking school. That's college. A college. Yeah, smart guy college. Yeah, yeah. This is a little mandate situation. Yeah. Okay. Congratulations, William Hirons, what happened? Yeah. Well, here's what happened. Okay. He, of course, couldn't afford any of this shit. So he works several jobs, but he's also like, I'm going to go back to being a serial burglar because it's fun and I can make money. So he keeps doing that. He kind of like lives his crazy double life. But at school, he's known as like a good dancer. He's handsome and charming. He goes on dates and shit. Like people love our friends with him and love them. He's pretty cute too. You want to see a photo of him? See when he pulls the photo of him? That's what so much trick was like, there was like a. It can't be him. Well, there was dance club. So like, it wasn't like they'd go dancing. It would be like, let's all learn how to like do the london. Yeah. And like, and this trick was like, everyone wanted to dance with him because he was like charming and a good dancer and a good dancer. Right. Which is like, it's the perfect comment. That's not what we say anymore. Okay. Now we're like, and he rides a motorcycle. Yeah. Exactly. So the afternoon, all right. So the afternoon that he, that cops are like, maybe this is the guy, he, it's June 26, 1946. He's 17 years old. He goes to the post office to catch a thousand dollar savings bond, which he had purchased with the money from previous burglaries. He had a date that night and he needed money. That's why he was doing this. He burglals. Then he takes that he buys bonds. Yeah. He invests. Uh-huh. And then he needs the money to take a lady on a date. Which a thousand dollars for a date. I'm like, fuck and take me out, bro. There he is. He has your forehead. He has a three head for sure. No, it's just like a strong, a dark hairline, caring forehead. Yes. Killgara forehead. Also, he has very great, great hair, great eyebrows. Uh-huh. Good features. He, you know, he looks the first, you've got, you're getting text even. I want to read those texts out loud, so bad. Oh, don't you? Who, who'd play him? Um, Rob Briggle. That's the first person I thought of when I looked at that picture. If Rob Briggle, I feel like he'd have to be a little smaller, but he definitely has like Italian shorter Rob Briggle. We do Rob Briggle. We do a door phone golf thing where Rob Briggle stands on his knee. Totally. And then we shoot around it. You know, we just make it work. Yeah. We just make, we do a being John Melchvitch kind of small down the set. He gets on his knees. We're off to the races. Okay. I figured it out. I'll call some people. Great. I'll be there. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, and so he, okay. So he has a thousand dollars on him. He's like, fuck, I'm going to bring a gun with me. This is a lot of money. That's why he has a gun on him. Um, the, he's making, listen, look, this guy, listen, he's making bad decisions. Okay. Yeah. Consistently. Consistently. This isn't, before I fucking tell why he's innocent about other shit, he sucks. And like he's doing some shitty stuff. Yeah. Because when he finds out that the bank is closed, he's like, well, I'll just rob a place real quick and get some cash for the state tonight. So like, you're not, and you have a gun on you too. You're not the best fucking dude. Well, yeah, because if you're smart enough to go to college when you're 16 years old, be Mr. Gifted, we, but you're not, and none of those, uh, abilities are applying to the any other part of your life, right? Or like, it's not even about being smart. It's just like, fuck everyone. Fuck everyone else. I want what I want. I'm going to take it. Yeah. Like, you're stealing money from people who probably need that money too, dude. Well, right. And it's, yeah, that's all power moves and stuff where it's like, the, you know, those breaking people turn into murderers because they don't give a shit. Exactly. And they're doing everything. It's like the thrill of it. And I'm, it's what I'm interested in. Yeah. I want to do with narcissists. Like, there's part of you that wants to be like, well, you're 17. You're going to like straighten your shit out and be a good person, which I think a lot of people sitting in this loft have done their lives. Straight mission too, Steven. Two of them, uh, yeah, but, you know, fuck. I mean, yeah, he's so young. Right. But okay. So he goes to burglar a place to get some cash. He goes to a place he'd been stolen before. And it's just a few blocks away from the Degnan House apartment. He's caught, well, trying to grab the money. This Jason Seuss, blah, blah, blah. He's cornered by the cops. And then he fucking pulls his gun on the cop. Yeah. He doesn't shoot. But it's like, what the fuck are you thinking? Is he suicide by copying maybe? And I don't know. Okay. Um, and then there's like a sc, the cops gun jams or some shit. There's a scuffle. And then it turns into a fucking Laurel and Hardy or like three stages pick because another cop grabs a fucking clay flower pot and smashes it over his fucking head. It says three of them like takes three fucking flower pots and smashes is it's fucking for real? Yes. That's hilarious. That's how he gets stopped from fighting with his cop. He was stopped by officers Tom and Jerry. Exactly. Exactly. He goes unconscious. They take him to the hospital. He drifts in and out of conscious. He says that he remembers someone saying that he's a suspect in the Degnan case and he feels his fingerprints being taken. Oh, okay. They raid his houses and shit where he lives. They find all the stuff from his previous blur, blur glories. I'm calling them blur glories. A couple blur glories? They were called blur glories until 1950. There were just a blur of burglaries. Oh my god. Yes. Blur glories. Blur glories. Karen, that was amazing. Thank you. I'm really trying. A couple things that are recovered are a scrapbook containing pictures of Nazi officials that have that he had stolen from a war veteran. That was taken when he Blur glared at his place. Yeah. The same night that Susan Dignan was killed. Uh-oh. Which I want to fucking know about the studio who had that photo album, like what a psychopath. Or did he liberate some, for some French city Nazi occupied and then grab shit? That happened to me. You know what? His name was Harry Gold, so I'm going to guess your right. Yes. Harry Gold was on the right side of you. Harry Gold was not a Nazi. Harry Gold's people came through Ellis Island. They're like, why don't we clip that burger off? Yeah. Let's move to Chicago. Act as white as we can. Oh, World War Two. We have to fight Hitler. Let's go for it. Let's do it. Okay. Harry Gold, I apologize. Okay. Also in his possession in William's shit is a stolen copy of the psychopathia sex hue alias. Yes. From 1886. Great shit. It's the one. It's like the fucking, it's like the psychology of sexuality. Sexual psychopaths. Yes. Sexual psychopaths. Yeah. Right? You know who's read that book? Who? Mr. Paul Holmes? Oh. Sorry, Steven. He never got past chapter one. Sorry, Steven. He played the fifth. You played chapter fifth. The fifth chapter. That's what's wrong with it. It just starts reciting everything in the fifth chapter. Well, it turns out in Latin. In addition. Okay, but blah, blah, blah, they find that. And then they also find a stolen medical kit. And they're like, oh, it's this shit, this, this membrane stuff. But it's like, it's not. He's interrogated. Okay, so then here's what happens. Then William is interrogated around the clock for six fucking days. He's beaten by police, refused food or water. He's not allowed to see his parents and or a lawyer. He's 17. Yes. And like, they beat the shit out of him. Yeah, they did. He's subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence of sodium pentathal, which we know as truth serum, which we also now know is fucking bullshit. Sure. And it's not, doesn't work. Well, under the truth serum, he like, and it's like a psycho. What is it called? Sexualist. It's just like that. It's just like it. He like concocts this person like an alter ego named George Merman. That's his brother. Yeah, Merman's brother. Eugene's grandfather. That's right. Who authorize who it's basically like has this alter ego that makes him kill people, whatever, like makes it up on truth serum. Maybe another people like, or he did, he make it up. Is he the killer? Is it true? Yeah. You know, me. And then the fucking media is like, oh, Merman must be short for murder man. And then like, just go with that. It's just so stupid. I would have tabled that for a little bit longer. Yeah. I mean, like, I understand why you're excited about that idea. Let's keep working. Not the worst that definitely out the worst and feel great about it. Like go, move, go forward with that. But it's too, it's too open. Why aren't you just saying Merman like a mermaid? On the fifth day, he's given with okay, no anesthesia given a spinal tap. No, no, no, that's torture. Holy shit. Then they drive into police headquarters for a polygraph test, which they couldn't do because he wasn't so much fucking pain. And to this day, they still don't understand the, we still don't know why they give him a lumbar puncture. They, they was like, for a reason, but nobody, but it's like, they didn't write the reason down. No, fuck, sorry. They did that in a hospital and then drove them behind. Of course, she's the epidurist too, right? No, no, I'm sorry before that. But it's still, it's stuff getting shoved into your spine. Yeah, they gave him that. That's okay. I hear that with with anesthesia, ladies who have had babies. This is the most, like, when they have to fucking shove that shit in your spine, you don't want a needle in your spine. I mean, I don't, I know I can be really controversial, but I'm a part can say it you don't want to need it.
Karen, are you sure you want to leave it in steam, and how dare you? Oh my God, all right, when the polygraph is administered, results are inconclusive, they're declared inconclusive, although the people, and this is part of him being taken a trial, but later in 1953, the people who had had said it was inconclusive, published the findings in their book, which I'm sure was just a fascinating read, and they say that his test quote clearly establishes him as an innocent person, so like, people are lying, handwriting analysis that is writing as the same as the the lipstick message and the ransom note, they say that his fingerprints match the fingerprints on the smudge on the door jam, even though it was a smudge fingerprint, and they say that it's his fingerprint, there's also another fingerprint found on the the ransom note that they say is his blabbed a boi. After being intermittently tortured and held with that food sleeper access for five days, he is finally indicted for assault with intent to kill robbery. 23 counts of blurglory, blurglory, Jesus Christ. How's that candor is there? I wish I could blame it on that, but I haven't had that much of it. Blurglory, blurglory, blurglory, and three counts of murder. Bobbady bought. He's transferred to the county jail. His lawyer, who's hired for him, is like, no, man, you're guilty. Let's figure this out and keep you out of the fucking chair. That's his plan. He said that he thought he was guilty, and that the burglaries alone he would face life imprisonment. So he's like, let's just keep you out of the chair. Well, that guy's pretty negative for a defense lawyer. Are you supposed to be like over the top optimistic and fake it in the real world? Yes. Yeah. So there's a plea bargain, a blurglory in a plea bargain. If he pleads guilty, he'll get a single life sentence. And then, but if he, but then he refuses, all this shit happens where he like is like, I didn't do this. They're not mad at him for saying that. And then finally, he's threatened with death penalty. If the trial goes, if the case goes to trial, he says later that I confess to save my life. So he sentenced ultimately to three consecutive life sentences for the murders and, um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, then the handwriting expert recants an early January of the next year and said that the handwriting on the ransom note and a lipstick message had, quote, few superficial similarities and a great many dissimilarities. Okay. Doesn't matter. He's fucking too late prison. Yeah, too late. And then some have question, the legitimacy of the lipstick note completely saying that, quote, it wouldn't, it would be, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a man to pick up a piece of lipstick and write the message with it. Basically, they think of fucking crime reporter when in there was like, this story is boring and wrote the, the lipstick note. You know, what's boring about a woman getting stabbed then having her wounds taped shut? That's like, that was the first murder. Oh, that's, the note was on the second murder. Yeah. She wasn't boring either. None of this is boring. It's not boring. Yeah, I mean, that's, I don't think that hurts true, but I just don't, and I don't even know if those two murders are, are even connected the first two. But it does make sense because there was that, it was the pulp era where it wasn't enough to have a murder. Yeah. You did have, it was that sensationalism. Yes. Exactly. You had to, you had to have a nickname and you had to term things. Totally. You know, lipstick on the wall is like, what's more upsetting and crazy? Also, that's stolen straight out of Jack the Ripper. Oh, right. Right. It on the wall is some weird writing of like, I'm crazy. And also, it's the Jews who did it and all that stuff and make people run in every direction. Well, it's, it reminds me of the case of the Weepy voice killer. Remember him who calls and is like, make me, make me stop doing this. He, his fucking voice. It's so annoying. I was just talking to my friend about that. Oh, my God. Oh, and I'm not your friend. You're talking to me about right now. No, I'm telling you right now. I'm talking about it right now. If you just informed me when I were talking about shit, that's my new way of going crazy where I'm like, we're talking now. Anyway, go ahead. I'm talking to my brown-haired friend right now. Go ahead and keep talking about what we're talking about. Okay, I'm almost done. I swear this is long. No, no, it's good. And I apologize. People, but oh, also they're like, okay, the fingerprint that you guys found on the door knob, that's a role to fingerprint, which I didn't know about this until later. Yep. Explain the movie you just did. I just basically, it's the thing you see in every movie when someone gets booked at the police station and they roll, they put your thumb in the black ink and then they roll across a piece of paper. Exactly. Which is a fingerprint expert. It's like, that's not how you find fingerprints. Yeah, you don't touch the door by going like, oh, do you know how many times I did this move and tried to, and when I heard that and was like trying to open a door knob in the air to be like, would I do that though? But I guess I could do that, but maybe I'd roll it. Whatever. You can't do it, right? It's not a thing. It's just like not normal. Because you have to grip it. You have to grip it. So it would just be the top of your fingerprint. Anyways, so William had been eligible for roll. I don't know for nearly nearly every year since the 1970s he's been eligible for parole. The Center for Wrongful Convictions mounted a clemency campaign on the grounds that he had served longer than required and that the evidence used to convict him was unreliable. But nothing worked. He just like, they wouldn't let him go. Wow. Constantly, these things kept happening. Right. In 2012, when he died in 1980, nope, Jesus, in 2012, he was 80, he was 1983 years old. Got it. He was 83 years old. He was the longest serving inmate in the Illinois Department of Corrections in 2012. He's the first inmate in Illinois to receive a college degree. And he like learned all this crazy shit. He helped all these fucking other inmates with, you know, he helped the fucking library and the school system in the, you know, so we did a lot of good stuff inside. Is there a school system in the jail? Now there is, but there wasn't. There's a grammar school and there's, well, you have to like get your EGDs. Yeah, you couldn't do that then. So because he was the first one to get his college degree. And he was in there basically as a child and he was super genius. So he's like the very least I can do is help other people. Right. So that's a good design. Yeah, it is. Not what I don't, I don't think most psychopaths think that way. Right. Right. So, um, all right. So Robert Restler, our fucking friend, who's the former FBI profiler. Yep. Meaning we have our fans of him. That's what I always be when I say that. Yes. Our fucking friend. Our fucking friend. 100%. He's one of us. Robert Restler, former FBI profile, credited with coining the term serial killer. Mine hunter did. You guys remember him. So he was a nine year old living in Chicago at the time of those murders. And he says, quote, it changed the innocence of neighborhoods when where people had taken for granted that they could have unlocked doors and walk alone at night. And it's those events that inspired him to become a criminologist, the lipstick murders. Wow. Yeah. The Suzanne's murder itself became a key element in his landmark theories about serial homicide. And they actually interviewed him. He and FBI profiled John Douglas, interviewed him in prison. And John Douglas remains convinced that Shoddy evidence, Shoddy evidence management prosecutorial overreach and media frenzy led to false accusations with these horrible consequences. Wow. That's the lipstick killer. That's also every time I think of that too. There's obviously like the idea of going to jail and staying there for the rest of your life is a nightmare. And people live it constantly. And that's horrible. But there's I also always think somebody fucking got away with it and is sitting out there. They just went to a different town and did it again. That's what I was trying to look at is like, are there like it's so hard to find info on this. But it's like, are there any, you know, other murders that could be attributed? What if he just went over to Boston and changed up his mouth? That's what I was thinking too. Something like that where that's what I mean, I do love that when things happen and you know, luckily it's been happening lately, you know, to where we get the satisfaction of like, they catch the golden state killer. And that means they have now solved by Celia Ransack or a hysteria rapist. And then all those the, you know, totally the original, they were calling it the original night stock. It's so satisfying that now I think about that all the time. What if they pull up this DNA? Yeah. And it's just like because they don't stop. They don't just know. Just stop. No. I can't wait to hear more information about, I mean, I'm going out of my mind, which is why I had to stop fucking going on Twitter. Yes. Of like, give me more information now about the golden state killer. Like, they know this about it. And they don't, and there's nothing coming up yet. So I know. But I can't wait to know like why and what happened after 1986, you know, it's just crazy. Yes. What were the jobs were? I mean, yeah, we just want to know everything. It's so crazy. Well, one of the things that they said that made sense about, you know, when he was like, you had to spend the rest of your life in prison. How awful would that be? But at the time, in 1946, if he did get sent to the electric chair, it would have been a matter of months. Yes. So now it's like 18 fucking years of appeals. It wasn't like that then. Right. So it's almost better that, you know, at least he had this time to make something of his life, even if it was and help other people for a shitty. He had a chance at getting out. It just never worked out that way. You have to hope.
that nowadays something would have happened, but to get him out, but. - Prison reform, it's important, it is. - It's so crazy. - But then like, what if he did do it? - Yeah, but. - I don't think he would have helped people in prison if he did it. - That's not, that's not a, you can't figure that. That's like, he was so nice. - It's too late already figured it in its fact. (laughing) - But it's the same thing if he was so nice. I never would have assumed Ted Bundy would have done this. - It's the same thing. - You're right, you bundied me and you're right. - No way man. - People who are fucking into books and reading and smart and helping other conducts aren't less likely to murder children and women, but you want them to be nice, smart people. - Well I just, but it is that thing of psychopaths only do what's good for them. Well what looks good for him is helping other people in prison. - Except for, yeah, I guess that's true. - And look how smart he is. How, how, he didn't Ted Bundy get off on fucking guys coming and getting legal help from him in prison. - He was, that's how he fucking didn't get beat up and killed. - You've convinced me. - Yes, I love convincing. - Oh hey look, there's a spider on the ceiling. I just threw my head back in the fucking happiness and there's a legit spider on the ceiling. - I'm sure I left my glasses downstairs. - Oh my god, Karen is coming closer to you. - Yeah. - Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for this story? - No updates, but buried bones were released. A two-part series titled The Lipstick Killer earlier this year, so definitely go listen to that. And then let's get into one of your classics. Like, I feel like top 20 of MFM as long as we've covered, yeah. Let's listen to Karen telling the story about the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. - So somebody suggested this on Twitter and I was positive I was going to write her name down today when I was like, "Oh, I am gonna do that one," she suggested. - It's a theme. - And she, yeah, exactly. And she suggested it in a terse way. So I imagine she's the kind of person that's gonna be very pissed off that I took her idea and didn't give her name. - Well good. - She said, "Have you guys ever done the blah, blah, blah case?" I think you should. It was something like that. It was basically like, come on, get with it. And I was like, "That's actually a great idea." Thought I could look her up while we were sitting here and my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't go back very far. So I couldn't look it up. So full apologies. Hopefully I'll hear from you. - Mess it, email Twitter first. Tell them to fix their shit. - Let @Jack know to stop letting Nazis run free on his website and then that we need to be able to go back a couple days just for the podcast. - I'm like, search a word and, okay. - You know what, also editing. It would just be nice to get one more pass before you send your ideas out anyhow. Guys, this I am going to do the crime of the century, the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby. - Girl, I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis who's sitting on me right now. - Yeah, don't worry about it. Also, it's not my applause. It's this girl's whose name I'm not saying. - This girl. - You're amazing. - Also, I, woman, we should be say woman. You don't know, I actually could be misremembering and I'm just attributing like a feminine aspect to like whatever picture, maybe she had blonde hair. - Who knows? - Humans. - We're going to, that human is going to let us know just how pissed they are about not getting credit for, you know, a case, I also can't believe that we haven't done yet. And as I was doing it, part of me was like, what if George has done this? And I was like, yeah, at this point, I just don't care. I just want to do what I want. - I think that, yeah, I think that's our new, our new theme is, did she do this? - I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling now and just do better each time. - Oh my God. - Less and less corrections corner. - Love it. - And then in like seven years, we're going to get to that journalistic level people have been wanting us to be at this altar. - No, we're not. - Never. - And then we'll give up on the podcast. - Yes, that's then we'll quietly walk away in the night. - Yeah, 'cause you know how quiet we are. - Yeah, walk away. - So I got all this information from an episode of Nova. - Oh, thank you. - Fucking God for that. - PBS. - Baby, it's like, and you can get an education for free on PBS. And the funniest thing is this episode of Nova featured John Douglas, FBI profiler John Douglas, who you just mentioned. He's the main, basically, they pulled John Douglas all the way through of going, the Lindbergh baby case was, and murder was presented in this way. And they got to this conclusion, John Douglas doesn't agree. - John Dougie, so we call him, you know? - In there with his super reasonable face, our friend's glasses, holding his glasses in his teeth, our friend of the show, John Douglas, solving problems. It's very, very cool. So that's a good, that episode of Nova, you can get on iTunes. - Or you can hear it right now. - Or you can hear me, so tell it word for word. Although it's not a exact, I survived word for word steal, as I usually do, because there's another, there's a Netflix series called Conspiracy that is good. And I got, and they do the thing where they do, it's compilation, so it's like three stories in each episode of this one. - So you don't get bored. - What's that? - Yeah, they keep it moving. And this one is, the episode is Disappearances. It's also the other, I can't remember if the third crime is, but the other first crime in that is the Lord Lucan. - Oh, you did that guy. - Disappearance, yes, I did do that. - I love it. - Loving it. So here we go. - His little backstory for you. - Why anybody cared about Charles Lindbergh in the first place? - On May 21st, 1927, a 25-year-old US airmail pilot named Charles Lindbergh touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France, in his plane, the spirit of St. Louis. When I read that name, I'm like, "Oh, that's what that is." - What? - You know, the spirit of St. Louis. - Oh, yeah. - Like if you had asked me that, I would have confused it with the spruce goose. I would have, you know, maybe an Amelia Earhart. - Exactly. - Just by the list, you know, it's a plane. - We know it, maybe it's a plane or, but now we know exactly. That's Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him. He was the first man to ever make the non-stop flight from New York to Paris. It was 33 and a half hours. - It was 3,600 miles. - Is that like in one of those planes that doesn't have a face either? So it's just like winding your face. - I'm pretty sure it had a face on it. Although, why would I say that? If there were two years in, why would I fucking say that? - 'Cause you're not going to start now with not knowing shit. - I look, why brain shows me movies? And that's reality to me. And I just report to you, yes, brain shows me movies. And that's reality. - And that's my reality. - I love it. It was 33 hours. We complain about four or five hours to New York City. - 33 hours and 33 hours alone in all day, all night. - And all you hear is me. - And time. - He couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit. Stephen's on the plane. - Stephen's got it. - The plane. - And do you know, thank God, the spirit of St. Louis is closed in the front. - Thank God. - But I bet it's loud as fuck still. - Oh, the whole thing, it looks like a big aluminum can. - No temperature control. - No toilet. - No, it was freezing. You know, he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle. (laughing) I mean, throwing it overboard. (laughing) Throwing it overboard for the first time in human history. Okay, so when he sits down in Paris and he does this thing, so just to give you a little oop, did that fucking. Huh. God damn it. I cut and paced it and then lost this piece of information. - Okay. - But like six other people had tried to do this and three of them died. - Two. - So this wasn't a thing, this was not, this was something because there was a prize. It was, these people said, whoever does this first gets $25,000. - Jesus. - So lots of pilots and different people were trying for it. And it's really hard and some people like had to ditch out and whatever, but like people lost their lives trying to make this flight. So when Lindbergh landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was immediately an international superstar. - He was the most famous man in the world. He got carried around the people that were waiting at the air stream. - He never had a walk again. - He never walked again. His feet became curled and after feet. No, they said they held him, this is the Wikipedia page, they carried one, their shoulders were over a half an hour. - Jesus. - He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for the past 30 hours. The first three were great. Put me down. - Yeah, he's like, this is the exact position I've been stuck in for 33 hours. All right, so he gets the nickname Lucky Lindby, gets that $25,000, he also gets $1000,000 more for all these promotions. - Oh, yeah, I bet. - Because apparently Pepsie Company, Pepsie is like, we want that bottle. - Yeah. - But apparently this really opened up aviation in general, but also for air mail. So he was like, either kicked it open over like FedEx and everything. Or it's like, you want to get something to Europe, we're doing, now we're gonna be able to do that. And that was kind of what the whole contest was about. - Okay. - Was to kind of focus on aviation, but then like, you know, opening up. So that suddenly people were thinking, you know, business in terms of aviation. I don't know I'm talking about okay.
He was, he'd given the Medal of Honor, which is the military's highest award. And he was given, he was Time Magazine's first ever man of the year. Wow. And still the youngest to this day, he was 25 years old. So yeah. Yeah. And he was kind of hot, too. Well, do you know who he looks like? Yeah. Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr. Charles Lindbergh at age 25 when he made this flight? Don't tell me until I see it. Okay. Who is it? Okay. You're going to tell me who you think this man looks like. No. Please, take your time. I'm just killing time. We'll see if we find it. Was he tall? He looked tall. He was tall. Yes. He was tall. He was blonde. He had a dent in his chin. Love it. He was, his coloring was very like caramel, but with blonde hair, which you know those people. Those people always tell me, they always win. Okay. Let me pull up. Oh. It's such an old man of the year thing that it's illustrated. That's how long ago this story took place. Oh. Come on. I'm sorry. I did this. No, no, it's okay. Okay. Because why don't you look at this picture and tell me. Oh. Hello, handsome. Who do you think this looks like? I'm going to get this wrong. No, you're not. He definitely looks like he's in a Brit pop band from the 60s in this photo, doesn't he? Yes. He look like, God, he's hot. Tell me. Paul holes. Look at the face. Oh, man. He does look like Paul. Paul holes. This is the holes episode. Well, let's just work all this Paul holes stuff out now. This is the holes upon holes upon holes at the sand. Okay. So. He does look like Paul holes. So Limburg being the most famous man in the world and like he's being, he's been brought everywhere. He's like, he's been fed in this really intense way and he's making a ton of money. Okay. They said that for everything that kind of he got paid for around that flight, he made a like almost half a million dollars in today's money. Okay. So, but still a lot of, I'll take today's money half a million for fuck's sake. It's pretty nice. So that he gets a financial planner, a financial consultant from JP Morgan, a big company. And it's a big company. Did you know? Um, the planner's name is Dwight Morrow and he's also the ambassador to Mexico. What? Fuck. He was, you know, this was when they gave an important job, a ton of important jobs to one white guy. It was the twenties. So when Morrow invites Charles Limburg to come on a good will tour of Mexico because he's famous and everyone loves him, well, just by chance Morrow's daughter Ann is down there. Oh. And they fall in love, rich people falling in love, rich, good looking people who have their own planes falling love all the time, they deserve everything, they deserve to fly. Okay. He teaches her how to fly. My buddy does. Yeah, girl. And then he teaches her how to, I don't know, love, um, they get married immediately start a family. Charles Limburg, uh, was very vocal and verbal insulting or criticizing, I should say. Other, uh, pilots of the day, there was lots of, you know, pilots like, it's the Amelia Earhart era where it's like being dashing, being, you know, being a pilot was a big deal. He was a trash talker. He was because he said that Air Force cadets and pilots of the day, they were all, um, they were, had fast style attitudes about women, and Terry, how dare, whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable in long term with a woman with keen intellect, okay? Good health. Whoops. And strong jeans. Oops. Oh, so you're a Nazi. Uh-huh. Good one. Good eye. Um, his, quote, experience in breeding animals on our farm taught him the importance of good heredity. Good breeding. Oh, dear. Hey, Chuck, no, no, no, that's just a little, that's your, that's your, um, foreshadowing. Okay. So let's go to the crime. This is 1932. They, uh, Anne and Charles Limburg have been married, um, and they now have two kids and newborn and their baby Charlie, their first son, who is two years old. On March, on Tuesday, March 1st, 1932, um, the family staying at their, as yet unfinished new house in Hopeville, New Jersey, or right outside of Hopeville, New Jersey. Uh-huh. They only visited this house on the weekends. They were, they were living full time at Anne Marrow's family estate called Inglewood. Um, so no one except for the family would have known that they would have been at this house because they, they were full time living at the Inglewood estate, but they would come to the Hopeville house and live there just for the weekend, just for fun of like, this is going to be our new house, um, there was, of course, full staff at both houses. Um, so sometime between eight and ten o'clock on March 1st, um, one or more, they're still not sure kidnappers, um, lean a homemade folding ladder. So it's a ladder that has three pieces that like slide into each other, an extending ladder, I guess. But it's homemade, um, lean it up against the wall of the house underneath the baby's window, the windows unlocked. The, um, kidnapper breaks in, grabs the two-year-old, um, they say they theorize that they subdued the two-year-old somehow because no sound was made. No one in the house heard anything. Everyone was still awake. So it's not like everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen. Everyone's up and awake downstairs, um, the baby doesn't make a sound. They go back out down the ladder and off into the night with Charlie and, uh, they leave a window, a letter on the windowsill. So there's another ransom, um, demanding $50,000 to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery on April 2nd, and they warn not to contact the police or they'll kill the baby. So, um, basically, Charles Lindbergh takes over this case. Now, it seemed to me that what they were kind of insinuating in both of these specials is that Charles Lindbergh really kind of believed he was the shit that the world was saying that he was for, for making that, uh, that transcontinental flight. He was cocky. The transatlantic flight. Yes, he, some people believe he was a narcissist, um, you know, whatever. But, but essentially, once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody. He didn't trust the police. And he basically told everybody how it was going to go. And in doing so fucked up this investigation, that then also some people afterwards kind of theorized, maybe he was doing it on purpose. Oh my god. So there's, there's suspicion cast, but he basically told the police, like, we're going to make this ransom drop. You will not tell anybody. You will not follow that. Just to it. Yeah. But, but we're going to do it. And so the police said, okay, fine. Just let us, let us organize the money, the cash that you're going to drop because what the police wanted to do was, um, essentially, they're using, uh, goal. It was like, they're, the gold, they used to be bills that were like, it was gold standard money. Yeah. And they were beginning to phase it out. Like if, if we just to use only money, uh, with these serial numbers, it'll be easier to track what, if these people try to spend this money after the fact, right? So they put together $50,000. They put it in this wooden box. Now, of course, when the kidnapping happens, it's, it's everywhere. It's the huge story in the nation and remained so, of course, it got even worse after. But yeah, it's the huge story. So when they know that there's a kidnapping and there's a ransom note, a retired school teacher named Dr. John Condon, who idolized Charles Lindbergh, puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers to be the go between and make the ransom drop at the cemetery. No, don't trust him. Lindbergh and the kidnappers both say, good, sounds good. So then. What is this world? You have to see it in the, in the Nova special. The Nova special is really good because it has so much footage. It's so crazy. I love it. There's footage from, there's footage from the trial. Like it's, it's intense, yeah. But this old guy, it's just another one of those things where like it's a guy in a three-piece suit. So everyone went, yeah, do whatever you want. Come on into this thing. And he is a blow hard. And he, you know, they say he had good intentions, but he made himself, he's one of those people he was like looking for the spotlight. So basically he goes, he goes to the cemetery to make that drop. And he hands over a box full, and it's a wooden box full of $50,000 in these special bills. And he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie can be found. The kidnappers take the box of money, they give the note, they disappear, and the information in the note turns out to be incorrect. So it was all of that was for nothing. Yeah. So they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers have gotten away, Scott free. Yeah. So. Yeah. You saw it coming? Yeah.
So six weeks later, on May 12th, a truck driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he has to use the bathroom. He walks into the woods a little bit. No. This is five miles away from the Hope-Linbergs Hopewell estate or home. And this truck driver finds the decomposing body of Charlie Lindbergh. And the police and the coroner and everybody determined, eventually determined the baby was killed the night that he was taken. So it turned out that his skull was fractured on one side. And then there was a hole in the other side of the skull, the opposite side, kind of back by the ear. And so the police report said that the officer that went and tried to get the body, you know, like pull the remains out of the mud, had used a stick and the officer thought he had poked a hole through the skull with the stick. But in this episode of NOVA, there's a man named Dr. John Butts and he's the North Carolina Chief Medical Examiner. John Butts. John Butts. He's a retired medical examiner, but he's also an expert on the death of suspicious death in children. Oh my God. I want to talk to him forever. Right. And he's so, I love when those guys come on and they're just like, nope. And it's basically he's saying you could not the way, especially children's skulls are, you couldn't poke. There's no way to do that. And so even if whether or not this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out or they were trying to mislead, he believes that the original wound, oh, oh, because the theory was from that, the theory became that when the kidnappers were coming back down the ladder, the story has stuck this part. I know. And it fucking is horrifying. Yeah. They they thought at the time the kidnappers were coming down the ladder with the baby and dropped the baby or fell forward at the because wasn't one of the ladder rounds broken. Yeah, this ladder is the ricketyest dumbest looking thing you've ever seen. It's truly like if we went and made our own ladder. I mean, anything's possible with a homemade three tiered ladder in Stain. And when you see this thing and you can see it in the Nova thing, it's like it doesn't even make sense. But the problem is with that theory, the fracture, that only accounts for the fracture on one side. And it doesn't include just the baby had more injuries than that. And they I think probably maybe in the hopes of simplifying, but basically they weren't taking into account. And so Dr. John Butts was like, that baby must have been laying down and there is a blow to one side of the baby's head, which caused the whole by the ear and the pressure of that caused the fracture on the other side. That's that's his theory personally. Yeah, no buts about it. Is that a TV show? And then he just goes through and it's talking about horrible child death. I was like, wait, I thought this was he's like, and this sound went and there's no buts about it. And it's crying. I don't want to talk about this anymore. Two and a half years after the body is discovered, it's basically goes cold for a little while. A man in New York State buys 98 cents worth of gas, but he pays with a $10 gold certificate with this old money. Yeah. And the attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number not because he knows it has anything to do with the Lindbergh kidnapping, but he knows that money is that currency is going out of use. And he wants to make sure he writes the license plate number down because he wants to make sure he can get a hold of that guy if the bank doesn't take his money. What a crazy world to be living in that that certain currency is going out and not it going to exist anymore. Yeah. Imagine just living it so old timey. It is, but it all looks exactly the same. It's the same design as modern money. It just had yellow like gold things on it. I don't I didn't look up what the gold standard was. I didn't. But you know, if you're interested in currency or the US meant I urge you to take a tour and educate yourself. I can't do it all. So the cool thing is then he immediately calls the bank, the bank recognizes that it's on this list of the Lindbergh ransom money and they call the police. So why do I think I can hold a huge cup of coffee and do this at the same time. So that license plate is tracked back to a car that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hopman. Hopman is a German immigrant carpenter who lives in the Bronx. And when the police searches home, they find a little less than $14,000, which is exactly two thirds of the ransom money. No way. I'm sorry. One third of the ransom money. That's what I thought. Yes. 50,000. Half is 25. Yeah. A third. I wrote two thirds. Well, the other person has two thirds. Right. It's the non. That's what you meant. It's the third that's not the two thirds. Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say. So basically he has the money with the serial numbers in this house. He also has a handgun. They're like, it's this guy. Then they look up that he has a criminal record where he's from in Germany. He had two arrests, one for climbing up a ladder into the second story window. What? To break into the mayor's house. Just a fucking face. As Germany? To the whole mayor of Germany. And the other crime was for holding up two women who were pushing a baby carriage. Dude, you're like to a map. It's a map and it's like, here's one thing I'm not afraid to do. Right. Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing. Also, I love ladders. Also, god damn it, I love to make a ladder. Now on that very topic, if you picture, so this ladder needs to be told up to reach a second story window. So it's like, he made a normal ladder. Then he made a slightly smaller ladder that would slide up within that ladder. And then a third one. Like, that's how Rickety and Janky this ladder wasn't claim that thing. And they find that the third section of this ladder, there's a piece of it that's made from yellow pine. And when they look up into Richard Hopman's attic, the floorboards of the attic are made of yellow pine. Dude. They pull that shit down. They pull that piece of the ladder off and they match exactly. So it's one more piece of like confirming evidence that this guy was there and had something to do with it. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Also, the bottom legs of the bottom part of the ladder broke. And that's that's what led them to that theory that the baby fell and and cracked it's okay because that the part of the later ladder that he left there, the bottom legs were broken or had cracked is Rickety is shit. It's like why even yeah, just get four people to and climb on their backs would be safer. Okay. So all of that all of that to combine gets Richard Hopman arrested on September 19th, 1934. And talk about this like how it all went so fast back then and there was no but also the world was watching this. Yeah. Right. I mean that when that baby was found dead, they said the the nation hadn't mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn like that again until JFK was assassinated. Right. It was like if this was everybody's baby and it was this hero, this American hero's child. Yeah, but we still have the it's it's almost why we have, you know, um, the peels and shit today is because you didn't have that back then. Yeah. Just fucking killed Ethel and Julius Rosenberg out out the fucking bat. Yes. They were their solution to everything was just okay, great kill him. We get we solved it. Now, now we don't do the paperwork. Kill them before they ask any questions about what happened. Yes. Quick kill, quick beat them for 10 hours and then kill them as quickly as possible. They confessed killing, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. Okay. So he stood trial January 2nd, 1935. And he's found guilty on February 13th of the same year and given the death sentence. Now at one point, he maintained his innocence throughout the whole time, including when the cops were like, if you give us the names of your co-conspirators, we will reduce your sentence. We'll make sure that you don't get the death penalty. And he, he, he just maintained his innocence and didn't give any names. So on April 3rd, 1936 Bruno Richard Hopman is put to death in the electric chair by the state of New Jersey. Yeah. So now there's all kinds of theories, of course, about this murder. That was it. So that case closed. Case closed. They got the guy. And you can see in this Nova Special, they have clips of him on literally on the stand during court. And the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly. Like there's no microphones. Obviously, it looks like he's just sitting on a chair raised up above everybody. And the lawyer is like, and don't you tell me. And he's like yelling the places packed. It was a total zoo like that the the the surrounding area was packed.
with like thousands of people going just being at the courthouse every day is super crazy. So yeah, they just wanted it over. They were just like done and they were like, oh, he's doing the thing a guilty person would do, which is like, no, no, no, I didn't do it the whole time. - And like even the phrase the Lindbergh baby, like that was like, it was a huge story. - It was a huge story and people wanted someone to pay. - Yeah. - This was like this tragic thing that seemed unnecessary and they wanted someone to pay. So here's the theories. Of course, the first and strongest is that he didn't act alone. Nobody thinks he acted alone. The liquor, the liquor, the ladder was too rickety. Somebody needs to hold that stupid thing from the bottom, 'cause it was like, the dumbest ladder of all time. - Yeah. - Once he got inside, there's a baby that would make noise. So you have to have, they're gonna have to subdue that baby somehow and then they have to get back out and back down the ladder holding it still. Nothing about, it just couldn't, they just don't see how it could be done by one person. And there's just so much organizing and stuff to do. Also later they do hand writing comparisons. There were 15 overall, the police don't know officially because Lindbergh was like, you don't get to be a part of this. But there were 15 different ransom letters that were written. - What? - Yeah, they communicated a bunch. And you know, with the old retired school teacher, Lindbergh, they were masterminding all of it. And at the time, and in court, they proved, the hand writing expert at the time, proved that it was Richard Hopman's handwriting on all the letters. But of course, modern day and in this episode of Nova, they're just like, yeah, it is inconclusive. And it's that super cool, modern hand writing analysis where they're taking the, you know, like two letters that always get written together, like a E and a T or whatever. And then they're showing how it's like all percentages. It's very scientific and exact of like, this matches, this doesn't. Because of course, in every letter, a couple things match and then, and then some things don't. So it's all total like percentages. - Yeah, and it depends on what letters are written before and after them and where they place in the word. - Right, I love that shit. - Yeah, it's very cool. And you can kind of see that it doesn't match, you know, from a distance, but they needed it. They needed it to be at the time. So they believe that other people were involved. Also, they, because of how many things had to go right with a kidnapping like that, they believe that it was somebody that worked on the staff in one of the houses. - Oh, shit. - It was an inside job. - Oh, shit. - And they believe that this is a man named Lloyd Gardner, who's a professor at Rutgers, and he has, this is his theory. And it's a very strong, interesting theory, strong, strongly interesting. So it's his theory that there was somebody inside the house that was helping set it up. And they're the only, also the only other people that would have known that the Lindberg family would have gone to the Hopewell House, 'cause they were full time at the other house. So that's like very few people would have known that, would have known to go to the unfinished house that they didn't live in yet. - Right. - The police interviewed a servant who worked at the Inglewood estate named Violet Sharp, and they interviewed her twice. She gave contradictory stories between the first and second one. When they went back for the third interview, she runs upstairs, drinks silver polish, and dies within minutes. - Oh, that sounds so. - She just immediately commits suicide. - Oh, my God. - So then that's very suspicious, right? And it's like, well, something's going on in this household. Okay, so Lloyd Gardner's theory, and then maybe other people's too, and this pulls in some dark shit in Charles Lindberg's life. He had, okay, so Charles Lindberg had a sister who died of heart failure. And he started, he was a researcher, he was an inventor. He did a bunch of other shit, just besides being in the, like, he was in the Air Force and being a pilot and all that stuff. He did a bunch of other stuff too. He started working with a Nobel Prize-winning scientist named Dr. Alexis Carroll. And Dr. Carroll had won the Nobel Prize 'cause he did all this work in vascular surgery. And so Dr. Carroll, Lindberg went and worked with him as a medical engineer because they were trying to figure out, essentially, how to build a heart pump to keep people alive if they had heart failure. And that's the work they did. But the work that people didn't know so much about is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics, and if you don't know, eugenics was this kind of pseudoscientific belief that got very popular in the '30s in America because of this doctor, that human beings should be breeding to make that basically genetically superior people are the only people that should reproduce. - A master race. - Yes. And that we should sterilize anybody who's physically or mentally imperfect. It was gaining tons of popularity. And Dr. Carroll told Lindberg he was the perfect example of the uber man, super man, that eugenics was aiming toward. Which of course, you know our boy, Charles Lindberg, was like, oh, really, tell me more. I love this idea that I am the one everyone should be like. And I already was the international superstar. - And then you got to hear J.P. Morgan's fucking daughter. - Like Jesus Christ. - Master race. - So he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics, which basically becomes a very shrouded pro-nazi anti-Semitic movement. But it just has this super creepy face of like, you know, the American dream is almost how they, they were trying to market it, it's super gross. Okay, so the theory is that Charlie Lindberg, Charles Lindberg's first son was not a healthy baby. He had a mild form of rickets. There's rickets is the disease in little kids. If they have it bad enough, it basically makes their legs, their knees touch and like their legs are bowed and they're really deformed. Charlie's wasn't that bad. So that's some people argue that this health argument isn't strong enough for like the case can't be made. But the theory is that they wouldn't have, that the family was very secretive about what all these medical problems were. He also didn't have a closed fontanel, which I love that word 'cause that's what Holly Hunter says in the Raising Arizona. - Something about, I swear that you mentioned that just now because there's something about this case that's always reminded me of Raising Arizona and that they take a ladder and climb up to the fucking second floor and steal a fucking baby. - Yeah. - It's kind of exactly, it's like the comedy version of this horrible story. And my little fontanel, mind his fontanel, I love him so much. Mind his fontanel, mind his fontanel. - So, okay. So the fontanel wasn't closed, which is a soft spot on a baby's head and he was two years old. - Okay. - So it's very late for that to be happening. - Okay. - Also, there's a doctor, I think on the conspiracy show, who was talking about that when the baby, when the remains were found there were deeper inner organs that were missing and at the time, I think the medical examiner, they wrote it off as well as exposure and wild animals. I've gotten to it and this woman in the conspiracy one goes, yeah, but you wouldn't be missing your heart. You wouldn't be missing half of your lung, but not your heart. - Right, you wouldn't, they're not gonna be like, I'm a big fan of lungs. - Yeah, now I'm gonna take this piece and I'll say. - It's not a pick and choose situation, it doesn't make sense. So they're saying they think this baby had a bunch of surgeries that there was a lot of things wrong and just nobody knew about it. It was like the secret and that the plan was because this was the thing that got done a lot back then, that the plan was that it was Charles Lindbergh's idea to quote unquote kidnap the baby than the baby's missing and then meanwhile, they can anonymously check that two-year-old into an institution and basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever have, the world will never know that his genes are not perfect and he is not this super bench. - Oh, I did not know that. - Yeah, well, this is a theory. So this isn't obviously proven and this isn't real. - No, it's true. - Take it up with Nova if you don't like it, but I think it's fascinating because it would, there's nothing about that story that makes sense. Like the mystery of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping is why would you kill a baby if you got the money for it? What monster would just immediately same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off anything, just kill the child, it doesn't make sense. - Yeah, and then keep going with it. - Yeah. - And also then just that those behaviors are connected. Like if you're into eugenics, there's something going on inside you that is really gross and really creepy and it continues.
So, basically, after the kidnapping and then the body being found, the public attention and pressure was so great on the Lindbergh family, and apparently, in one of these stories, they said that there was another kidnapping threat against their baby, John, their new baby. So, they were given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed names and they took a boat like they left in the middle of the night and took a boat to England and ended up going to live with family that they had there in Wales, is where they ended up going to Wales and then they went off to some island off the coast of France. They were just like, tried to get away from everybody. But so, they lived in Europe for the next three years, but the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking Europe, and the Nazis were coming to power, and the Nazis had heard all about how much Charles Lindbergh was into eugenics, and they were like, "Guess what? We're into eugenics, too. Why don't you come and take a tour of the fucking factory?" So, that basically, he came out as a very huge anti-Scimite and a big pro-Hitler. Like his whole thing was like, "I don't know why Hitler has to be so extreme about everything, but they do have great ideas." He was that guy. Yeah. And nobody was talking about it. Like I'm not a Nazi, but yeah, but I do love their ideas, and they're organized or all that bullshit. Okay, so basically, he gets, he gets asked to return to the United States to be a consultant for the U.S. Air Force, because I think the military was like, "We're about to get into this thing." Yeah. So, at that point, when they come back, they have, he and Anne had had five children, and they say over the years, his kids only saw him a couple months a year, that he was really detached distant father. And then, so none of that explains the kid now, and none of that attributes anything, and there's lots of distant fathers that need to be able to do that. Sure, sure. But then here's another weird twist. In 2003, these people in German, these German citizens come forward and announce that they are secretly, they were secretly fathered by Charles Lindbergh in the 50s. What? Seven adult people. What? So, what happened was, and this turns out to be fucking true, that in the like late 50s, he goes over to Germany, and he starts having an affair, he has an affair with a woman named Brigitte Hess-Hamer, she has three children with Brigitte, and then Brigitte's sister Maryette, who's a painter, he has two kids with her sister, and then with his private secretary in Europe, he has, her name is Valesca, I just have the name Valesca, that he has a son and daughter with her. Oh my God, yeah, chill out. All seven kids, they're born between 58 and 67, and in 1974, Charles Lindbergh died of lymphoma, and 10 days before his death, he wrote letters to all three women begging them not to reveal the secret. And so none of them did. And the only way they found out was one of, I believe it was Brigitte's daughter, I could be wrong about that, but I believe it was Brigitte's daughter, found, they all had suspicions because he told them, they met him, and would see him once a year, maybe twice a year over the years, but he said his name was, shit, I won't be able to remember it, I don't have it written down, it was something weird, like Carl Kent or something like that, just a weird fake name, that's the only way they knew their father, oh, Carl Kent, C-A-R-E-U. Make that shit up, man. It's, Carl Kent would show up and be like, it's me, your dad, Mary Christmas, bye. So Brigitte's daughter finds love letters and photographs, puts it together, they all get their DNA tested, and then they find out there's, it's seven children, the few fathers. It was busy. And it goes along with his eugenics thing of, I am the one that needs to propagate and have tons of kids. So I'm going to go and have all these affairs and just have kids all over them, we have to, it's for the fucking greater good, it's for the greater good of fucking Germany. So that's just kind of like an interesting, weird, creepy thing where just like, who is this person? Who is this mystery man that the world held up as this great human being because he made a solo flight across the Atlantic, the good part about this horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the huge story, like it's all anybody talked about for years and years, is that the day after this baby was kidnapped, Congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense. Wow. So that's when they put it into effect that if you take a person over state lines. Yeah, it's a capital offense. And basically that's, it was and it was called it then and you know, though remains popular at the time it was the crime of the century. That's incredible. They never found any, the other two thirds people that it could have been there. If you watch this Nova special, there's a guy on there that, and it reminds me of like a lot of the black dolly stuff, where there's a guy on there who's like, my father knew a person and he overheard this conversation and it could have been this guy and it could have been this guy. It feels like it would have been that someone related to that, the dude, the one third dude. Yeah, brother. Does he have a brother in law? It's always the brother in law. Well, because he was this German immigrant, there was other people on this city block that he lived on that were from the same city that he was from in Germany. And so the landlord of this guy who says his father overheard a conversation, that that man's landlord was from the same city as hot men. So the theory, it's very strong theory, but it is just theory and it kind of goes all over because it's basically this guy's father overheard a conversation where they all talked about, they use the word, "Englewood" and they said the name Bruno and did it, and then there's pictures and whatever, but it's, it, nothing is conclusive. So I didn't include it. They never found the other money, right, like no one ever spent it. Well, but there's the one guy that they suspected, one of the two people that they really, this guy knew and they suspected, took a, what, at the time would have been a $70,000 world cruise with his wife and there's pictures of him on the cruise and they came, he came back from Europe after hot men was, was found guilty. So basically they took a cruise, got the fuck out of Dodge, went around the world on a boat and then when they heard that they got the guy and they were sending him to the lecture chair, they're like, okay, we can go back now. He was, it was him. I think it was him. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy. It's, but the, it's a very sinister and definitely unproven, but the idea that he just wanted this not perfectly out of the house. Yeah. So, or maybe what they were going to do is like take, take the baby out, put him in a facility, something accidentally happened and he died. Maybe they were going to replace him with like a adopted, perfect baby that they were going to say was him. Oh, maybe, you know, could be, I mean, when you see, there's lots of, they have lots of home video and these black and white videos of this baby. It's not like this baby looks like anything is wrong, but I feel like if he was under this pressure to be the perfect human being and that that's the whole theory of eugenics is like perfection, perfection. Yeah. Then you can't have a baby that has turned in knees, rickets, you know, like is, that is even in any way development least level. Yeah. Maybe the baby that they found that was dead wasn't Charlie. Maybe they put Charlie in a fucking institution, killed some other baby to be like, no, Charlie's dead. And then they could like have this sick baby that they visit whenever they want. Maybe. That's, I think that's it. You've done it. I did it. You know what I mean though? You've acted in, you've, you've added another twist. Yes. Well, but that basically they, they did it. Yeah. That's even darker because then they're killing a baby. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, the whole thing is it would be nice to have some answers. Let's see. Let's see. And I test that shit. Go on genealogy. NET. Test that shit. Right. Get on there. Well, fuck. That was great. Oh, thanks. I love it. I mean, it was fun. It was fun to watch a TV show and then just write down what they say. I got it. I got to give that a shot sometime. I, I feel like I'm going to get better about not doing that. I remember my friend who had never heard the podcast before. He listened to it. We were at the work. We worked together. And we went to work the next day because you just re told a TV show and I was like, yeah, I do that sometime. I always hear, I had his voice in my head when I sit down to do that, but that's all I want to do. We've been quite busy. Listen. Look. Well, look and listen. To us. Always. And we're back here in Emmy
Lindbergh baby kidnapping story updates? - There actually are. In 2025, a lawsuit was filed in New Jersey, aimed at allowing DNA testing of the stamps and envelopes used by the kidnapper. Under the presumption, they would contain the Purps saliva. So the plaintiffs that filed that lawsuit are Jonathan Hagle, a University of Kansas professor, Michelle Downey, a retired school teacher, and Catherine Reed, an author and psychologist. And as of this rewind record date, the status of this lawsuit is unclear. But there was a previous lawsuit with a similar aim, but it was dismissed by a court because it had, quote, not sufficiently established a public interest in analytic testing. End quote. But hopefully that's something that enough time has passed where that's evolving. - Yeah. - And Barry Bones also covered the Lindbergh kidnapping on their podcast. It's an amazing episode. It's entitled An Aviator Kings Ransom, and it's from 2022. - Man, what if that one got solved? And like, solved meaning no one thinks that what happened actually happened or did it? Who knows? - Right, like the real answers, the real what was going on. There's also three books that you could read about this. I mean, this is a true crime case that has been around, like this is just early days true crime. - Yeah. - The first book is the Lindbergh kidnapping, suspect number one, the man who got away by Lee's Pearlman. It was published in 2020. Then there's the Little Lindy as kidnapped, how the media covered the crime of the century by Thomas Dordy, also from 2020, and the Rise and Fall of Charles Lindbergh, which is written by Candice Fleming, in when, in what year? That's right, 2020. - Oh man, but the tension between the three of them, in that year, like Kirkus reviews conferences, and the laser eyes. - Yeah. - All right, let's get into our fucking arrays. - Yeah. - What's your fucking hooray this week, Georgia? - I have two. One of them is that I took Twitter off of my phone. (laughing) Well, fucking hooray for you. - Thank you. It didn't even cross my mind that that was an option. Like I was like, I just can't stop looking and scrolling and seeing this news and bad news. And then when it's just like dumb news, like shit about Kanye, I get angry. - Yeah. - Like I just got, and then it was like, someone wrote like, I'm taking Twitter off my phone, and I was like, oh my god. I didn't even realize that that was an option. So I did it, and I'm having withdrawals, but I think it's for the best. - And then when you're missing some quality content for me, because I'm procrastinating so much, all I can do is tweet, 'cause I'm like sitting there, just supposed to be turning something in. - Yeah. - And then I'm like, but I have this good idea. - Okay, let me know if anything that comes up. Let me know if there's any quality golden state killer updates. - I will for sure. - The only place I was getting updates from, but then I couldn't stop checking. - Okay. - My other one is the TV show Barry. - Oh yeah. - But I'm enjoying so much. It's so good. It's what's his name? - Barry. - Bill Hader. Barry. Bill Hader. It's so good. And charming and funny and dark. I love it. Bill Hader plays a hitman who has super Chinese on a hitman. He pretends he's an actor in LA, and I wanted to say it earlier, but it's basically every conversation we over here. It's like, it's this TV show in that. It's so fucking funny. - Yeah. I only seen the first two, but I loved it. And there's so many good Henry Winkler. - Henry Winkler. - Henry Winkler. - So great in that. You know, I went to camp with his daughter. She was in a cabin. - Was she nice? - Yeah, everyone wanted to be friends with her 'cause she was the fondest daughter. - Yeah, that'd be tough. She was nice. I think she's like a preschool teacher now or something lovely, you're just like. - I'm sure I've already bragged to you, but when we worked on Hollywood squares, when we wrote for Ellen, we were just like two writers that came with her, and he was the EP. And when you do stuff like that of like, bring your own writers, there are people who are hired to write for that show that do not like it 'cause like, who the fuck are you coming in. But everyone was super nice to us, but I was always just like so uncomfortable. And Henry Winkler came and was like, are the carons in here? And he acted like he did the exact opposite of that, like he basically came and pretended like we were special. And I just remember looking at him like, you a did not have to do this. Being no one ever does this and see, it's like he's the mayor of Hollywood. Like he knows how beloved he is. - You know what's so funny? Is I remember, is like a fifth grader after when camp was over and we all got taken back to the meeting where the parents would pick everyone up, like after two weeks of being away or crying. And then she was like, come meet my dad. And I look up and I'm like, Henry Winkler. And he shook my hand and looked down. I mean, nice to meet. Like he was so nice. - Yes. And he's so fucking funny. - Yeah. - He's so good in the show. - It's the parts written perfectly for him, but like that intense acting, he's just so good. - He's really good. - Yeah, it's a really good show. - Yeah. - Okay, what's yours? - Well, I have to say mine is, I tweeted about this, but I was watching, my friend Bridget told me to watch a chef's table pastry, which is a new season. - Right. - And I think it's slightly shorter than their normal ones. It seems like a little special T1 they put out. And there's, say there's five, the third or fourth one is this guy in Spain named Jordi Rocca. And he is, basically has been named the top pastry chef in the world a bunch of times. - Does he make those beautiful, they look like apples or pears and they're like glistening and gorgeous? - And then they crack open and there's stuff inside. - And there's like meringue inside? - Yes. - I follow him on Instagram. - Oh. - Like he's super beautiful. - Yeah, but his, I don't know, I didn't see him, but his pastries are gorgeous. - No, they're, it's art. It's not, it's, it doesn't seem like a dessert in any, it doesn't look like you're supposed to eat it at all. - Yeah. - And the first one. - So he's super hot. - He's, well, he's just, it's the thing I, it's the thing I have. He's very swore the, with the big Patricia nose and he, but like, but very soft eyes. And he talks about, so his older brothers own the restaurant. His, his one older brother is a sommelier, his older brother is the head chef. It's this Michelin, it was a one-star Michelin-rated restaurant already. And they tried to get him to work there. He's 12 years younger than them. - Oh my God. - So they were like, you have to come and be the waiter. Well, he was like a party guy. And he was just like, whatever, I don't care. And he never really like caught on. And then he finally asked to get moved into the kitchen because the waiter's worked so late and worked so hard. He didn't want to do it. So he was like, I'll be in the kitchen. And he was just kind of like messing around the kitchen, kind of sucking. And then he got moved into the pastry section because they had this shoot. I'm not going to be able to remember his name, but like really world famous pastry chef who was like, here, haven't been in my department. Then he's not being like hounded by his brothers all the time, like he always is. And he can come and I'll teach him how to do pastry. Well, then, and they show this thing he makes. And it's called the city that this restaurant and in is like, it's called, I'll never remember how to say it, but I thought it was, I thought we were in Italy. The first two times I watched it, I assumed we were in Italy. Because it all looked like Italy and felt like Italy. But it's Spain. And say it's like it's Genoa or something like that. And the first thing they show that he made is called the Flowers of Genoa. And he makes, he takes the strip of what looks like fruit roll up. And he cuts it out. It's the skyline of their city. And then he makes it, it's 3D. So he's having part of it stand up. But then he paints the plate underneath. So that when you look at it, it looks like this 3D trick of the eye, where there's flowers, there's these little things, you have to see it. When I was watching it, they do the thing where they show them making it. And then it just says, Flowers of Genoa, whatever the name of the city is. And I, on the couch, went, oh my God! Like, it's that incredible. And then he's like, he's talking in it about how his brother, he had a really big nose growing up. And his brothers would always make the joke of calling him. And then he would turn his head and everyone would duck. And it's all, the man is beautiful. And you can tell he doesn't know that or understand it. And it's that thing you just go like, that's how it is with everybody. Everybody thinks these horrible things about themselves because of their asshole bullies and semblings or whatever. And he's like this magical artist. So his desserts basically made this restaurant go from like a one-star Michelin, which is a huge accomplishment, anyway, to a three-star Michelin-rated restaurant where it's just incredible. I'm telling you the whole episode, and I don't need to. - Yeah, I love it, I'm gonna watch it. - I had a ton of coffee. I just love him. I love the idea that he didn't even know that that's what he wanted to do, or that it wasn't like he was trained for it all his life. - Yeah. - He discovered it and is so good at it. - I love it. I love it. I'm gonna watch it. I love him, also he was first the whole time, which is kind of my jam. - Anyway, a chef's table is always, it's just one of the best-made television shows there is. - Okay, I'm gonna watch it. - Okay. - Yeah, that's it, right? - I'm gonna hooray. - Okay, we're back. We have fucking hooray updates. I love it. - Oh yeah, Barry ran for four seasons and concluded in May of '12.
2023. Man, I was really disappointed with that last episode. Oh, now we're far enough a way that I can say it. Like, oh, I don't know. The series received 44 Emmy nominations in both Hader and Henry Winkler, one Emmy is for their performances. Yeah, deserved. Hey, my old camp buddy, Zoe Winkler-Rinus is no longer a preschool teacher. In 2018, she co-founded This is about humanity and non-profit supporting separated and reunified families and children at the U.S.-Mexican border. Wow. She's a really good person. You know, one of those incredible. We need to, we need to put a little post-it note on that This is about humanity, not totally. Totally. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh, and also, so the pastry chef I was talking about, Jordi Roca from that episode of Chef's Table, had developed a neurological voiceless order called Distonia. He eventually lost most of his ability to speak. And then he, after years of treatment, he announced in 2023 that he had recovered his voice and he could read stories allowed to his young daughter. Oh, that's beautiful. I love him. I love him. The restaurant that he and his brothers work at and run still holds three Michelin stars in 2026. So it's been like years. Yeah. It's also the restaurant's 40th anniversary this year. So congratulations to El Celer de Canroca. If we ever go to Spain, maybe we can go there. Hell yeah. Okay, so this episode was originally entitled fingers everywhere, of course. But if we were naming it today, we have lots of great choices. Blur glories. Blur glories. For sure. It's got to be Blur glories. Blur glories. That is perfection right there. Three bins, 17 actors. Loose cursive. That's a nice classic title. That's a good band name. Yeah. Sure. True. A glorious time for liars. Mrs. Sally Holes. There's an embarrassment of riches here. Yeah. All right. Well, and with that, that's this week's episode of Rewind. Let's go say goodbye from 2018. Go to my favorite murder.com for whatever. I don't know if you need something. For your needs. That's right. Thanks for listening. And stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis, you want cookie? Bye. Bye.
PodcastTranscript AI