Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 116: Robot Grandma

This is exactly right. For this week's rewind, we're skipping episode 115 and jumping straight into 116. Formar contributors were part of the network at the time these episodes originally aired and were choosing not to platform them in any way moving forward. Thank you for understanding. [Music] Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case updates and SEO search terms. This episode originally came out on April 12, 2018. So let's listen to the intro of episode 116. [Music] Are we doing it enough? Let's do it. Here we go. Ready? Okay. Were you a cheerleader? Do I fucking look like I was a cheerleader? Were you? Yes! Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And looking back, I shouldn't have been. But if you start anything, ready okay is a great way to start. Ready? Okay. This is my favorite murder, the podcast. Do your, hey cheerleaders. Hey cheerleaders and cheer, don't. And cheer, get your herkies on. It's time for your favorite true crime cheerleading podcast. My favorite murder. It's time for the first 45 minutes of your first true crime podcast. Where there's no true crime, a lot of personal issues. That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen Kilgarin. And there's Stephen Ray Morris. Hardstar Kilgarin. We're calling him now. Stephen Hardstar Kilgarin. Yeah, we've changed this now. Stephen would legally change your name. Stephen. Cool. Stephen? We also enrolled you in a Monastery kindergarten. Just so we could get the experience of being hyphenate parents. That's right. Can I watch my feet? Yes. Did you see someone today on Twitter was like, Georgia, I found this on a library and you weren't wrong. And it's called, it's like a children's book called, like, can I watch my feet of Monastery? No. I'm fucking weird. Like, next level. I quickly put it out, just to prove you wrong and it worked. You self-published, which is awesome. That's right. That's right. And to did it in a library. I was like, someone's going to look in here. I'm random murdering it with a Twitter account. Love it. I think, as the kids say, this podcast has blazered itself. I think this podcast has ripped the back out of its own blazer. Yes. They're cheap mermaids blazers and needs to calm down. I just had a flash. Yeah. Of shopping, mermaids. So anybody that's not from, I think it's California only, I'm sure there's like equivalence at someplace. We'll hear about it. If mermaids was in your town, we'd like to know, but we pedal in my head of mermaids, which is one of the only like larger stores in my town. It's like a mini department store. Right. It's like a mini cheap department store. It was almost like the original target, but it didn't have cool things to buy. It just had like, just department store stuff, though, like a JC penny. Exactly. But almost like lower rent than JC penny, like JC penny was for the rich kids. We were over at Mervins. And that's where you bought us where everybody in my school and town bought their first bra. I was going to say I stole my first bra from Mervins. We were just trying to pass the fucking time. The most boring thing in the world was going shopping with your mom at Mervins. At Mervins. At Mervins. Today. I learned real quick that my mom would be like, come shopping with me. I'll buy you a lipstick or what I should buy me a little trinket. Which is great. And I'd be like, okay. But then I didn't realize I've met four and a half hours of my mom in the fucking dressing room. Yes. Like four and a half literal hours for trying stuff on a trinket on and a fucking Mac lipstick is not worth it. So she would get that out of you when you were like Marvettine or a teen. I think that last time it happens when I was 16 and had a fucking nervous breakdown on the floor of the fucking changing room of like the beige changing room at like fucking gloomy. What was it called? Blooming. Yeah, Blooming Dales. Blooming Dales. Yeah. Can't. Oh god. I'm sweating. I'm now sweating. What's funny is with my mom it was the inverse or she would be like, you need a new blank for school or whatever. Mm-hmm. So we go to close time. Which was actually down the strip. Well, my mom worked. Close time. No, really? She worked at the corporate office. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I told you about it. I told you about it. I told you about it. And then we were meeting jokingly like did the kick her leg up. Close time thing, but she was wearing a tight skirt and fucking flew out her legs are underneath her and landed on her fucking ass in a corporate office. Did people go crazy laughing? I don't know. Which was so. I can't see Janet handling that well. I love her, but she's a very formal lady. Yeah. She's like, she's very like always blown out. She's good with like a, you know, like I love Lucy's style. Gaffa. You know what? A gaff. Stunt. Stunt. That's it. Oh, okay. I have a corrections corner. Hold on. I'm telling my close time story. I'm sorry. I forgot. I'm sorry. Go. Now I can't remember what it was. It was just that my mom would always be like, you can get a new thing and that we would be in close time for like 17 minutes. Because I had to look at every item on every rack because things didn't always look on me. I had wide hips. I'd big, a big butt, big boobs. That's fucking Irish back. I had that fucking Irish back early where I was like, what's happening? Yeah. So I'd try things on. I'd be like, I want to wear a plaid this and checkered that because it was the 80s. And everyone would be like, no, no, no, no. Sales girls. Truly after like 15 minutes when I would be like, Karen, I've been at work all day. We have to go. And I'd be like, this. You wanted this. I can't shop this way. I can't find my pet Benatar. Love is a battlefield outfit. That's right. And that's why you hate shopping today. It is. I was truly scarred. I was reverse scarred from you. I'll go with you. Shopping. I'm really good at. This is going to look great on you. No, it's not. Try it on you. Oh, you're right. Okay. Can we make that plan in three months? Sure. Okay, great. What's going to happen in three months? I just personal stuff. You'll stop. You'll stop. You're stopping your compulsion of ripping clothes to shreds and clothing stores. In the dressing room with me. Just to slap out. She likes to bring a pair of scissors to clothing stores and just absolutely shredding everything around her. And she doesn't even know about it. If I try something on it, it has like a weird bump for the buttons. Don't close. I'll just cut it up with large scissors. So it'd be great if you could come with me and help me. I'd love to. Okay, awesome. I'd love to. Corrections corner. Just real quick. Remember how I kept yelling about. Just call 911. Just call 911. Oh, yeah. All these like people. All of these probably one person who works at 911. You know, yes. Emergency services was like, can you please tell everyone not to call 911 for non-emergency things? And instead to find their non-emergency police number. Actually, that's not only is that a great point. Program. I have. Yeah. Is that what you were going to say? Yes. Go ahead, sorry. No, please. Emergency police station phone number into your phone. That's right. Says police so you can hit it as fast as 911. But you're not clogging up. Have you ever called 911? No. No, yes, I did. When the gap that I worked at in San Francisco and Market Street got robbed, I had to call 911. I couldn't tell them what streets we were on. I couldn't give them a specific address. And basically what these guys did was just really fast shoplifting and they pushed our security guard over as they left. So it was so like grab and go kind of a thing. It was a grab and go that it doesn't I don't think really count as a robbery in a major metropolitan city. So they were kind of like, yeah, I guess call us back if, you know, like call us back. If you remember if they had a knife or something. Exactly. It wasn't really a true emergency. Okay. All right. What about you? I've called on like car accidents. Oh, and maybe a couple, you know, a girl I lived with. This is not funny. I don't know why I love it. I lived with like five girls one time and I was like 20. And one of them locked herself in the bathroom and proceeded to have a seizure. Oh, no. Like, yeah, it was not funny. Why am I laughing? It's pretty crazy. Maybe it stresses you out to tell me a person who has seizures. Yeah, that story. Yeah, or maybe I'm traumatized from it. But everything was fine. But you didn't see it. She was fine. It was bad. Was there a bloody mess? No, no, no, no, no. She was fine. My thing is I'm always afraid. Yeah, you can't, if you're, that's a thing that happens. She's like, I was embarrassed and wanted to hide it. Exactly. You could all tell. Yeah. I'm going to like kick the door down. So she's like, can I please privately slam my head against the tile? I don't want to seem ugly in front of my friends. That also happens when people are choking. People always, if they start choking, they get up from the table and go to the bathroom, which you should not do. If you're choking, stay around people so someone can give you the Himalayan. Oh, they're so scared of choking. Have you ever eaten something alone? And you're like, the way I just laughed when I was chewing, that should have, I should have choked on that and died. No. I don't think a lot when I'm eating alone. It's a blur. There's a lot of noises. And like crying. Speaking of being alone, this is my other thing I wanted to tell you. Okay. Okay, here's, this is what's wrong with me. And I feel like this is a safe space. Everyone listening has been there. I was, I'm listening again to the audiobook of "All Gone in the Dark." Yeah, I'm Michelle McNamara because I can't believe it. - Yeah, fucking it enough of it. - Yep. - And I'm listening to it as I fall asleep at night. - You do? - Yeah, I know. As I don't fall asleep at night, I should say. So like last week, I'm trying to fall asleep listening to it, which is like the woman's voice she reads, it's like really kind of, it's really soothing and monotone, but the writing is so deep and you're like in it and I can imagine everything. And so I'm like imagining someone breaking in and how do we do it, which is really, I don't wanna challenge anyone, but it's kind of fucking hard in this apartment, right? - No, I'm laying next to Vince who's sleeping. And then I remember that he's leaving the next day for four fucking nights and I'm gonna be alone doing this. - Oh, he is. - So the next day I texted my dad and I, I, a 37 year old woman, had my daddy fucking stay at my house while my husband was at it. - Oh, so you're so sweet. - So you're so sweet. - That's incredible. Well, that's a testament to how amazing that book is written, but you know what's really funny and you'll feel less alone. My sister's best friend, Adrian, who's like my sister. - Yeah. - Who has been a listener since episode one and then I think I found out she was a murderer, you know? Like we both were like, wait, what? And we've known each other for 20 years or so. - Well, now 40 years. - Good God. - But, but she called me specifically to say, I am halfway through, I'll be gone in the dark. And I am freaking out. She goes, Karen, I have read every true crime book there is. She goes, I've never given a single shit. No, I've plowed through all of Ann Rule. I've done it all. She goes, I don't understand what's happening. I'm laying awake at night. I am scared, shitless. I can't stop thinking about how fucked up this guy was. She's like, do you think he's still alive? Like, we were having this conversation where I've known, she's the coolest, most, well, she's in fucking, she's in Northern California too. - That's right. - See, that would scare the shit out of me. - But she's down here if he's alive. - You think so? - Yes, yes for sure. - Why? - Because that's the last place he kills. - I keep going through my head being like, go through your head of jobs and what would he be that would make sense of why he was in those specific cities. So I keep going through jobs and I keep going through like, maybe he was a teacher, maybe he was a teaching assistant, maybe he was a pilot because there was an air force base in Irvine, when I was a kid, like, which comes up in the book. - And because there was also one right where, like I think in Carmichael, right? - Or Relita too, there was like, read the book, my God. - So listen to it, I think, I feel like everybody has. - Yeah, we're all, we're all with that. - You're all, Steven just turned his notebook over and I thought he was holding up like a cute card before it will be gone in the dark. 'Cause like, you got the fuckin' maverone. - You assholes, you were so stupid. - What if it just said, they caught him. - They caught him, guys, it's happening right now. - Georgia, it was your dad. - Georgia, you invited him into your house. - No, but it is such a good book. It's like, and what I said to Adriana is, because she is so good at boiling it down. There's no extra writing, but also, it's not sparse. It's just the most concentrated boil down. Here's how it happens, here's this experience for people. And it's all that stuff, which I feel like, part of this true crime wave that's just happening to everybody right now, is because this is my personal theory, because it's all about the monster's hiding in plain view as like the wolves in sheep's clothing. I'm obsessed with that thing, where we are now starting to see our government crack apart. Like, people who claim to be on one side, claim to be on the other, but in truth, they're bought by somebody and they're about, you don't even understand how. - They have no fucking, they're no moral compass. - It's none. - Just sociopaths at large that were everyone's going, oh no, it can't be this way. Like, and that's not even, that is not partisan. That's like, I feel like there's a different level of something happening where people are starting to culturally publicly acknowledge that we have people, men and women in our society that are true monsters, that do not seem like anything at all. They speak in low tones. They look very pretty or attractive. - They say the right things. - They make you feel great. Nothing about, it's that annual ted-buddy thing. - Totally. - And I see them coming and it's the scariest fucking thing in the world. - Well, it's the same thing with Anne Ruehl that Michelle and McNamara has where it's like, well, she's one of us. Like, I just like, I want to, when I finish listening to it, I want to go have coffee with her and talk about it. She's just so, she's herself is so, and you can tell how, like, the book, she describes how obsessed she is and I totally fucking get it. We totally get it. - Remember in the book when she talks about getting that big, crazy amount of files, something kind of like, snuck out of your building? One of my last conversations with her, she told me about getting the mother load. It was at a patent show. I was on, she was in the dressing room, and she was like, we just got this thing. And like, I just remember, it was a very brief conversation. And also, I want to say this. It's not like we, she and I were best friends. I don't want to try to portray that as we had some amazing relationship. I just knew her. We had this conversation. I just remember her, like, total excitement, but also it was this thing of like, like, now we have, we have 30 times more information. - Yeah. - And now we're really gonna start to get into something. - This is so fucking nuts, oh. - Okay. - Anyway. - What else do you have? - Oh, this is very important. We found this out from Steven. - You and Steven? - Steven and I have started a band. (laughing) - Small porn fashion. (laughing) - Yes. No, this got sent to us as a story, I believe, today. - Okay, I haven't seen it. - And it's so amazing. So of course, on the mini-sodes, we've read a bunch of stories about people finding things in walls. That's been a whole conversation that we've been having. Then there was that story that came through that's incredibly tragic of a woman who fell into her wall and then her body was discovered years later. - Oh, baby. - That story came through a lot of people sent it to us. We didn't really talk about it because it's just pure tragedy and it's such a suffocating, terrible feeling, literally. But then this one came through today. - Okay. - The headline of this story. - Oh no. - Mystery monkey mummy. Surfaces in Dayton's demolition. - No. - You overwrote that fucking, what is it called? - A "literation"? - No, yeah, but also what do they call them? - The headline? - Yeah. (laughing) - That's not what I meant, but then you said, I'm like, yeah, that's what it's called. - Okay, let me read this to you. - Okay, okay. - So this happened in Minnesota. - Minnesota's long-new Dayton's as a store which is just about everything. And it's proving even more so. - Oh no. - Tim Nelson wrote this by the way. So Tim, you're just doing a great job. We're only two sentences in. It's proving even more so. As Chris demolished the interior of the iconic downtown Minneapolis store for redevelopment, the latest, a dead monkey. - What? - Quote, we don't know a lot about this monkey, but I can't say that there was a monkey found during renovation, what? We continue to find a lot of pieces of history like this in the Dayton's project as we redevelop the building. - What's historical about a monkey? - Unfortunately, this was one of the recent discoveries. Chris had previously discovered a wallet long ago stolen from an employee in 1969 and found during demolition of a wall. - Oh, that's fun. - A demolition worker submitted a photo of the dead monkey to the Facebook group Old Minneapolis. So go join that. - So a bunch of like old women, old ladies who were like, - No, it's Donald, the old Minneapolis. - They're trying to, they're trying to enter stuff on Facebook. Like, how does this work? That was a robot grandma. (laughing) I don't know why I said it like that. And long-time customers and employees respond with tales of pet shop on the store's eighth floor and a monkey that went missing in the 60s. - Can you imagine how depressing a 1960s fucking pet shop on the eighth floor of a department store? - It was? - They create, imagine you're in a department store. Like, Mervin's style, but it's the 60s and they're like, oh, you can buy a monkey there too. - Yeah. - Do you need a broad? Do you need some place? - No, it's happy it loves department stores. - It loves, it loves a cage. It just loves two feet of room. We really don't know the story or the origin behind this find. There are a lot of ideas and theories right now, but none that we can say we understand to be true. - I bet I bet they're funny. - Oh wait, interestingly, Robin's Dale Mayor, Reagan Murphy says he may know the riddle of the monkey. My dad once stole a monkey from a Dayton's display back in the 60s. - What? They decided to bring it back after it's shot all over my dad's friend's bedroom while they were at school. It says the word "shat" in this newspaper article. - Explain my face right now. - Georgia's bath or if I'd confusion, I would call it. - Yeah, that's right. You just don't know what's going on. They returned it by letting it loose in the store. That is probably, this is probably that monkey. He just outed his dad so hard. - It's hilarious. And now they're having a huge influx of leasing increase. Congratulations everybody at the Dayton's renovation. That's the best fucking story of all time. - I am baffled and I love it. - I wonder if it's shadow over that room, they released in the store. The manager gets there the next morning. It's shadow over the store. He takes the monkey, he strangles it with his own hands, sticks it in the wall. I don't think that can a man overpower a monkey? - No. Scratch his fucking eyes out. - Monkeys are 10 times more powerful than people. - Second question. Why is he in a display? Don't put live animals in a display and if fucking pets store on the sixth floor everyone. - Yeah, but remember when Melanie Griffith's mother Tippi Hadron had her own tiger, there was a weird chick going on in the 60s and so on. - That was for sure. - Like exotic pets that couldn't actually be controlled. for sure. Goodbye, everyone. Let's go think about, we're gonna go look it up. See you later. Don't laugh into your coffee mug. Don't laugh into your KCRW coffee mug. (laughing) Now it's a horse. Click clock, click clock. Karen, turn in no demon horse. - A cool clock, cool, cool. - Listen, look, look and listen. I put some extra oxygen in the air for us, so we get a little wacky. - Hi everybody. - Okay, we are back and there's updates. - I know. It is so bananas that 12 days after this episode aired, authorities arrested Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. on April 24th, 2018, and were able to identify him as the golden state killer, which. - The ultimate update, actually. - Yeah. - That's the one everyone's always looking for. - Totally, I mean, I can't believe it. It's like in this episode, I'm we're saying like, what was his job, what did he do? Turns out he was a cop, not for long, but he fucking was. And that is like, I remember just wanting all the information when this came out. - Yes, oh my God. It was like all the theories that we had heard over the years, all those discussions, what a fascinating kind of like thing to lit. It really actually felt to me like a timeline shift. - Yeah. - There were so many big things that happened around that time, obviously, but huge things. Not just like, oh, one big thing or one big change, but it just felt like, it just kept coming. - Yeah, and I remember like, what, like just, it opened this door to solving these cases, and it has a lot of them, I wish there were more, but and I think there will be, but these like suddenly cold cases had a way of being solved without ever needing a suspect, which I think, well, I mean, you need a suspect to get their DNA and compare, but you can get that suspect by whittling down their family tree. I mean, it's like suddenly evening, the playing field with these monsters. - Yeah. And there's now people like Michelle McNamara, who they take it upon themselves to apply their expertise and what they do best to help move these cold cases along that would otherwise just sit there. Like, this was a predator, a serial rapist, a serial killer. So many, I mean, just like this man, it was just a, just destruction. And it was like, oh, well, it's a cold case. We'll never know, maybe he's dead. That was like the main theory that people, it's, he's probably dead now. And instead he's just hanging out in citrus heights or wherever his house was, like, living life. - So bonkers, it's so bonkers. And yeah, if you haven't read, I'll be gone in the dark. I mean, you need to listen to the audiobook, read the book. It is terrifying, but the fact that he was caught makes it a little less so. And I remember having my dad spend the night when Vince was out of town while I was listening to this book. There was a window up in the loft, that loft window that I was like sure he was going to fucking come through and kill me. Like, I was so scared because the book is so incredible. - I mean, and this is a predator who made his specialty, this exact kind of break-in idea. Like everyone's worse nightmare. That's the thing you lay in bed at night, just go out of here. And this guy played on all those fears times a million. The thing, I remember Pat and talking to me about when he learned about would they would find the rope in the couch cushions and that idea that he'd already been there. He was planning this for days. Like, yeah, it's just so beyond. - That and like people who he never intruded into their homes found that stuff too, because he was planning it just like knowing he'd get a chance at one of the houses. - Yeah, so it wasn't just the victims that found that. And then that one is crazy. Also the fact that the thing that he would do where the victim would think he left because he'd be quiet for an hour. And then they'd start to stir and he'd like clear his throat. Like pure fucking, like levels of evil, I just can't wrap my brain around. - It's like he figured out how to scare people the most. - Right. - How to scare women the most. And just what an insane kind of before and after for that case and the way that case turned out. And the fact that we had anything it like had anything to do with it at all in the conversation is so weird to me because it's so old, we watched it on cold case files. We watched it on forensic files. Like we all knew this case in all different parts and pieces over the years, since the '90s. Totally, that piece of like, and I think you and I probably brought it up on our first, like during our first true crime meeting of the guy who would put dishes on the back of the spouse of the man. I mean, yeah, the fact that we started this podcast right when this was all happening and coming to an, you know, a Christian know is so fortuitous and so interesting. - Yeah, it's just, it's such a time and place. It's almost like smelling a perfume, but it's this story. And so you're just like, oh my God, yes, I remember being super stressed and feeling like, oh my God, we have to answer this. We somehow have to like be in this conversation because for me personally, the East Area rapist was such a thing in Sacramento. - Right. - And that then becoming the Golden State. Like that two separate people, the cases that were done in San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara and further. - It's just so weird. It's like, if you wrote it like that as a movie, people would say it's not realistic that that Southern California serial killer is also the East Area rapist. And it's like, no, yes. - Well, that and the fact that you knew Michelle McNamara and I was such a big fan of hers already in her blog. - Yes. - Just that like kind of, I know. Just that weird little. - That blog was the only hit I would get if I wasn't watching like, cold case files or something. Like, and it was so innovative because she was basically applying her brain but also her passion for this, what is going on here? Why aren't people talking about it? Or whatever she would do, all those cold cases and all those, or just kind of those hanging unsolved ones that bothered her. - Yeah. - It was such good work. - Totally. Should we just really quickly give an update on the very much less serious mummified monkey? - Sorry. - We got mummified monkey and really quick, I have a correction corner. - Oh, okay. - So old, such an old concept that we have to bring back because I said Melanie Griffin's mother had a tiger and I was incorrect. She had a lion in the house. - How did you know though? - And also it's different in a way of like the MGM grand thing where it's like, to me, almost crazier, scarier. 'Cause it's more cartoonish. - That's like, there's photos. Go look at the photos online, you guys, of like this cute little child, Melanie Griffin, like diving into a fucking pool with a full grown lion. - A lion. - A tiger. - Just like Malibu in the 70s, it was a crazy place. - I think of Moe. If Moe were that size, I would be gone. Like even just his playfulness, he'll like hit me in the face in the morning. - Yes. - I'd be, I'd bleed out if he were that size. - It was a cat scratch fever epidemic that would break out. - Ridiculous. - There's no reason in the world to be like, I think I should live with a lion. - I think any wild animal, like, you know what I mean? Like any of those wild animals when people are like gung ho and like, I collect whatever it is. And it's like an illegally obtained like animal that needs like sources of heat and food and like entertainment that you, we have to like buy on the dark web. - And other animals to feed them. - Totally. - You have to buy on the dark web. - Yeah, I'm trying not to piss off snake and reptile people because I do think that makes sense. But when you're getting into like, you know, a fucking crocodile over here. - Okay, so, but back to what you're trying to say about the mummified monkey story, which I completely forgot about. - Same, same. - There's still no concrete explanation for the mummified monkey that was found. The best theory is that the animal was a squirrel monkey. So that's a lot smaller than what I was picturing. - I was picturing like a silverback gorilla. - Totally. - Just in a while. - Just in a while. - Got tigers and we've got gorillas. All the big ones. The best theory is that was a squirrel monkey from Dayton's old pet shop or pet display in the 1960s 'cause that's what they did. Possibly the same monkey that two boys once stole brought home and then released back into the store. - They were like, sorry, we didn't mean it. - Oh shit. - Too hard. Can you imagine? It's hard enough to have dogs or cats. You have a fucking monkey in your house. - No. - It's like a person that just is slightly less reasonable than like a five-year-old. - I have a problem too with like diapers on pets. - Yeah. - Even I know it's necessary for a lot of animals, but it's just makes me sad. - I know. They don't belong there. They should be able to free shit and piss wherever they want. - That's right, then cookie does. (laughs) - Okay, we should get into these stories 'cause both of these stories from this episode are amazing. But this one, that's the wrong word. I always use the same words over and over when I describe these horrific, brutal cases that are just, we've just described them all. This one though, a child killer, essentially. - Yeah, in the 1800s. - Let's get into Georgia's story about Jesse Pomeroy. Who goes first tonight, Steven, on this lovely hot evening? Steve? Shit, I don't know either, Steven. I think I went first last time, didn't I? I wanna go first. Can I? Yeah, of course. Just 'cause, look, this is a can in a half of sparkling wine, so I can tell the story still. Yes. Alright. Okay. Yeah. Can in a half of sparkling wine. Classy as fuck. That's who I am. Congratulations. Congratulations, Steve, because I have to tell you something. Okay. You were right. About something. You know what? Can we just sit in that for a second? I know. I know you don't want to. It doesn't happen that often. Just hearing the words. Oh. Okay, thanks. Karen, you were 100% right. The alienist is a good show. Yes. You were right. It's fucking great. I have two episodes left. I can't wait, but I love it. I mean. That's what I watched while Vince was out of town. So good, right? So good. 'Cause it's giving you enough of your true crime or your crime. Yeah. It wasn't true. I don't think. Maybe based on true, but also there's like the visuals of that show. It's gorgeous. And fucking fanning Dakota. She's nailing it. Nailing it. You think she puts drops in her eyes to make her pupils be cartoonishly large like that? I wonder if it's a little fighting guy. Lying. Lying human. It doesn't have to be a guy. That's right. Well it is based on true shit. Because here's how I know. They went and did something. And I was like, what is that thing they're talking about? Looked it up. This is the story of the Boston boy feigned Jesse Parmeroy. Holy fuck. Yeah. I'm going there. What's wrong? I didn't do this guy. Did you? Did you? I looked it up and you did the smiley face. No, no. Tell it into this. Okay. So Karen and I. Hold on. I just even tried to go off Mike with this. 'Cause he's like, I don't want her then. I don't want to fucking throw it. You, Karen and I both today apparently had a text even to go, did we do this for the right? Did we do this for the right? Let's hear it. Well no. It doesn't matter anyway. I know it doesn't. Yeah. The visuals I sent. 'Cause I think you originally wanted to do this. And then you didn't. Because it's horrible. And the final visuals were the giggler and the smiley face cover. And it doesn't matter too because the episode we posted from Boston isn't this one. Right. So it's only to those people in Boston and the audience who are turning this off right now. Right. But they wouldn't. 'Cause now it's your turn to tell the story. That's my turn. This is almost like, uh, what is it? That's the first time I want to be. The first time I want to be. Wait until you have the show. Did you think you did this? You did the smiley face cover. I know. No, no, no. I mean, anything's possible, you guys. I think all I know is I know the Jesse Palmori picture where he's got one. Yeah. I think you did it. But I could have just looked at it. I would do that kind of thing where I'm like, look at that weird illustration of a bad boy killer and the end. I don't remember. But I was so deep into this by then, it was five o'clock. I want to hear it all. Okay. I want to hear you tell it to me because I, here's, I don't remember it. So perfect. 'Cause I don't either. Except for the eye. Okay. Except for the eye. You know this, this photo, this drawing, not some photo. It's a drawing of a boy who's got like a milky, weird eyes, like a, you know, looks 12 or 13 in the photo. Okay. This is where we're talking about. Yeah. Um, this is Jesse Harding Palmori. He was born into a lower middle class family in one of the worst slums of South Boston at the time in the late 1800s. Charles Towne had to look it up. So I didn't say Charleston. Oh. Charleston Towne. Good one. Massachusetts. It's the oldest neighborhood in Boston. Oh. So Jesse is born in November, on November 29th. 1859. Let's go back and go back there. That's all the way back. That's way far back. Uh, he's the second of two children. His dad Thomas is a fucking asshole and a veteran of the Civil War drinks has a horrible temper. He beats Jesse with a horse whip or leather belts all the time, often making him strip completely before he beats him. Ruth Ann Snowman was his mother. She was a seamstress. She adored Jesse and throughout all of the shit going on. She never fucking wavered on her thinking on defending him. Oh. But come on. Okay. Lady. I can sometimes denials helpful. That's true. Okay. So he had been a sick baby, left him kind of, there's all these different accounts of what. Okay. Here's what I'm going to tell you. I found that the most times about what was wrong with him, because there's so many accounts. It said that he was sick as a baby, which left him scrawny and frail. But it also said that he had a large body, oversized body, huge fucking head. His dome was like banana side, like so large. His had some large, like weird features. I just watched the Andre, the giant documentary last night. So I'm like lecturing his hand holding a fucking, a fucking beer bottle. When it looks like a Barbie toy in a big hand, bless his heart. How sad would it be if you had a huge body, but you were still scrawny? Yeah. That sucks. Maybe his head was normal size and his body was scrawny. So it looked like he had giant head. Maybe he was a gray alien. Anyway, maybe he was a psychopath. He was scrawny and frail. It's reported that, quote, many people, according to some accounts, including his father, it said, could barely look at him without a shutter, because his right eye, maybe due to illness or a reaction to a smallpox vaccine. One thing says about an accident. It's just hard to tell. I'm sure historians yelling at me right now. He had a thick white film covering his pupil. So he had one white milky marble eye. Got it. Might have had a cleft palate. He was fine. I just want to say really quick, that just made me think of Jimmy Pardo and his smile train. You know, Jimmy Pardo, a never-not-funny podcast. He does all this, like, every year he does the podcast with on, and he raises all this money for smile train. And smile train goes out and gives anybody that can't afford the surgery to fix it. They go fix them. That's the most gorgeous thing I've ever heard in real life. It's very, very cool. It's very sweet. Hey, sorry. I just wanted to say that. No, slightly positive thing. Can you just every couple, every page add in a fucking positive thing, please? Because this is not really the present story. This is a bad one. Yeah, but I'm doing it. Okay, do it. So everyone said that there was something wrong with Jesse, that he wasn't quite right. He got bullied and teased while at school. A neighbor said that at five years old, and here's where I lose all fucking sympathy, Jesse stabbed a cat and threw it in the river. Oh, goodbye. If he had a bad eye and a cleft palate, he had a shitty time at school in South precinct Boston. I agree. You're right. Every day in South fucking Boston, he got teased mercilessly. Shitty. Yes. So, and pets also disappeared from their home all the time. That's a bad sign. He was a loner. He never played or really spoke with other children in the neighborhood, maybe because they fucking believe you because there were assholes. Yeah. He preferred to spend his time alone reading dime novels. His favorite was a series based on a man named Simon Gurty. He was a renegade white dude amongst the Shawnee Indians, and they all went on a front-tier settler massacres in the 1780s, and they made a fucking like serial dime store novels about this. Wow. Yeah. He was on Native American side. Yeah. Well, that makes massacres. Yeah. Which is like something they talk about in the alienist. That's exactly right. It's so creepy. Oh, so they took pieces. They must have. Awesome. Off of this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And the stories are full of blood and sex, and gore, and wars, and battle, and crazy shit. And this kid is, little kid is reading this stuff, so it's like video games now, like did it do it or did it not? We don't know. Or us with Stephen King. I mean, I read Stephen King way too young. Yeah. Yeah. But that wasn't real. It was like campy and kind of, it was someone that told me that. Oh, shit. Karen. Wait, so you didn't know cars can't talk? I've been trying to light shit on fire with my eyes for a year. I know. That's why you got headaches. My daddy actually used to say that when I would get mad, he'd go, don't give me those fire starter eyes. Oh, shit. Um. Okay. Okay, so Jesse's first reported attack took place in the Boston suburb of Chelsea, which was across the river from where they lived. He goes over Chelsea. Um, Jesse had just turned 12 years old. Oh. He's a fucking baby. He's a baby. It's around Christmas time of 1871, and Jesse somehow enticed as a small boy named Billy Payne to come with him to a remote area. And as soon as they're alone and don't worry, don't get too detailed. Okay. Jesse forces the child to take off all his clothes, just like his second dad does. And then he ties him up and takes a rope and flags the child. The kid once he's, and then Jesse leaves once the kid is found, he's too traumatized to give police a good description of who attacked him. I think he just said he was a teenager or something like that because he also looked, he was tall and looked old for his age two months later. And this is like, this is so crazy because it's such a quick succession of attacks. Yeah. Two months later in February of 1872, Jesse led seven-year-old Tracy Hayden to the same area, promising that they were going to, quote, see the soldiers because that's where they were fought. repeated his first assault on Tracy as well as on his neck. Next victim in May of 1872, eight-year-old Robert Mayer, who he lured away by promising him a trip to see the circus. In this attack, the boy said that he's a saint, that the silent, who he couldn't describe, sexually pleasureed himself while afflicting his beating. And he achieved sexual satisfaction at the height of the boy's suffering. Oh, God. He's so young. He's doing that. Something is going on at some other places. Some bad, bad stuff. I feel like it takes years for people to equate pain and sex, right? You know what I mean? It happens when kids are older and their teens and twenties because it takes so fucking long to get to that place where your brain is like, these are the things that turn me on and make me come. Except for, if your dad is stripping you and beating you, well, that your dad is stripping you and beating you so often that it happened by the time he was 12. Yeah. So I'm not sure myself. Something is going on his entire fucking life to get him there. Yeah. It's so dark. I know. And I'm doing it. It does look like Stephen keeps holding up a fucking -- no, a fucking cue car for us. It literally looks like -- in the car of our -- it looks like Stephen's like 30 seconds to commercial. Yeah. I think it's because this -- I upgraded my notebook to be a lot bigger. Oh. So it looks like -- Well, it starts. Right. Yeah. It's fine. Tell me anything. Just right. You're doing great. George. But no one is horrified by this. No one thinks -- no one's going to stop listening to this podcast because of this, sorry. This is actually what people listen for. Oh, great. Okay. Great. Not great. However. Okay. So then he took off, left the boy alive. So keeping with his 16 and 90-day cycle, Jesse, then in mid-July of 1872, Laura's 7-year-old Johnny Bulk to the outhouse on the powder horn hill in Boston, excuse me, with this promise of two bits for running an errands, who's like, come on over here. Two bits, two bits. Don't know how much that is. The assault was similar to the previous one. The boy was stripped bound, whipped and beaten until Jesse achieved orgasm. Then he said he'd kill the boy if he ever told anyone and he got the fuck out of there. The public starts going bananas. They flip out. They start calling him the mysterious boy-fiend. The police are under pressure to capture him, but they didn't have very much of a description to go on other than the attacker was a teenage boy with brown hair. That's all they fucking had. Wow. Yeah. So like all the teenage boys got rounded up and they were like parading them in front of the victims and they couldn't identify any of them. The city of Chelsea offers a $1,000 award and the police launch an investigation. Okay. The text stopped at this point just for a little while in late July, possibly due to turmoil in the Pomeray House when Jesse's father takes off and leaves Ruth to provide for herself and her sons. There's like not information about why he left or what, but kind of good riddance. Yeah. For real. But it could also be, so they ended up moving and that could be because the dad left, but it could also be because there was a description of the, quote, boy, torture in the paper and she possibly read it, recognized it as her son and was like, "Eee, we're getting the fuck out of town." We're getting out of town. This neighborhood. And this was long ago enough that if your description got put in the paper and you left town and just moves like a neighborhood, no one would find it. And no one knew you. Yeah. And the next neighborhood. Yeah. Totally. That app we have where we can talk to our neighbors about weird shit and I will fucking next door. Do you love it? My neighborhood. It's filled with paranoid lunatic retirees who are like, who's stealing the oranges off my tree? It's insanity. I read it. I read, laugh and delete them every single day. Well, this wasn't happening. Okay. Then. She. Okay. So Ruth rents a small storefront in South Boston for her dress making shop. She opens a dress making shop. In August of 1872, the three of them, the mom and son's moved to a flat across the street from the shop and the boys held out in the shop and the move coincides almost exactly with the end of the Chelsea attacks and the beginning of the South Boston attacks. So. Yeah. And this is where Markey Mark comes under this story. That's right. Do a fucking, I dare you to do it, except right now. And then the good one, man. That's all I can do. Who's the best? Anyone's ever done. I don't understand the Boston accent. I can't do it. I can't hear it in my head. I don't get it. I had it when I was trying to get Charles town, but it's gone and I won't try it. Okay. On August 17th, 1872, seven year old George Pratt was wandering around South Boston shoreline looking for treasure, little boy looking for treasure. Oh, sorry. I ruined that word for you. That's okay. When he was approached by an older boy who offered him $0.25 to help him run an errand. He binds and tortures the boy, and this time it so it starts to escalate at this point. Okay. Um, he bites chunks of flesh from the boy's body and also stabs him with needles. Back. I know. And this kid's 12 who's doing this less than a month later, Jesse kidnapped an assault six year old, a sexual boy named Harry Austin stripped and beaten like his previous victims. But this time it escalates. He takes out his pocket knife and stabs the child under each arm. I guess it wasn't, but wasn't a deep stab. And he, he goes to try to castrate the boy, but gets that someone comes by just at that moment. And he runs off. Good God. Thank God. I know. Right. And then six days after this. So six like this is a fucking fiend. This person is mad. He's a sexual psychopath. That's right. At 12 doing these things. So six days after Austin was attacked, Jesse Ler's Joseph Kennedy was seven into the marshes near the bay and viciously beats him like Austin attacked with a knife and Jesse forces the boy to kneel and recite the Lord's prayer, but with obscenities, which is such a childish, weird thing to do. You know what's funny is in the, when you first started talking about this, I was like, I wonder if this guy's Catholic, this boy's Catholic. I wonder like maybe something was going on in his home, like not just with his dad obviously, but in his school or at church, some creepy priests somewhere along the line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As much as people want to think like you're born this way, you're born evil. It's not a thing. I mean, if he's a sociopath, he wouldn't care if he's hurting people, but it does. Maybe you don't become a sociopath. You don't, you're not born a sociopath. You become a sociopath. No, I think you're born a sociopath. Is it nature or nurture? Let's decide right now. Let's debate it. Let's, let's debate it. Boop. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. Good lead. Okay. Six, okay. Six days later. Like the fact that he thought that reciting the Lord's prayer, but with obscenities was like part of the torture, it shows what a child he was and how and how, how off his understanding of. I don't know. I just, I have to say when you just said that fact, it kind of made my heart race a little bit. Because it's like you're going to get like the fucking saved the boy who was during the Lord's prayer. The boy refused to do it. Yes. Yeah. That's very, like that's, that's so taboo. It's, it's like a consecrated, that's not the right word, but it's a holy thing. It's like you're talking to God. So it's like you're saying, fuck you God. Oh no. Which is not allowed in 1860, whatever. When you, I'm, can you sample that track of care and fucking God and just for the fucking hard techno being to send it, send it to her school that she went to her Catholic school training. Oh my gosh. Fuck you. Oh my gosh. That would be amazing. This is not funny. Okay. It's not. Six days later. Five-year-old rock. It's actually stressing me out. I'm sorry. I don't know. I mean, because it's just, it's bad. It's bad. I know. No, no, go ahead. I'm just stressing in a good way. Six days later, five-year-old, a five-year-old boy named Robert Goldes found lash to a post near railroad tracks in South Boston and told, and he's told about an older boy who learned him to the remote area with the promised to see soldiers. And then when they were alone, the boy stripped him and beat him and slashed him. And this kid Robert was finally able to give the police their first good lead in the case after all these victims. He described his attacker as a large boy with an eye like a white marble. Oh, okay. I wonder why none of these other boys, he must have hid it from them somehow. I think they were really traumatized too. Yeah, I guess that's true. I don't think they could talk about it. Maybe. Yeah. Who knows? So horrible. The Boston police. Okay. So then they're like, great. They fucking conduct a classroom by classroom search of the Boston school system. They even go to Jesse's fucking school, but somehow they didn't see him. And then for an unknown reason, maybe guilt, maybe toying with them. Who the fuck knows? Maybe he was 12 and didn't have, wasn't thinking the way we think. But on his way home from school that day, Jesse walks into the South Boston police station where Texas are sitting and questioning the victim, Joe Kennedy. He's Joe spots Jesse from across the room. And in the meantime, Jesse's like, for some reason, like bad ideas, like fucking crab walking out of there. - Yeah, but fucking Joe. - Kennedy is like, that's fucking him and starts yelling that that's him. And so the police grab him. Okay, a few other victims were able to identify Jesse as their attacker, including one from the Chelsea neighborhood of Oaksland. That's the boy who cut me. - Shit. - Later that night during questioning, he confesses to all the crimes, but he later recants all of that. But he is arrested. And due to his age, he sentenced to the state reform school at Westboro for the term of his minority six years. - Oh. - So he's 12 years old and they're like, you did all this horrible stuff. You're going over a formatory school. - Okay. - That's it. - The end? - No. - Unfortunately. (laughing) Do you want it to be? - No, no, no, no, no. - Jesse is a star inmate. He applies himself to his studies, but of course he's bullied by the other children and his mother is like, how can I know he didn't do it? And she hardcore petitions for his parole. And it's confirmed before he even spent two years there. So Jesse, he's now 13, is quietly paroled into his mother's custody on February 6, 1874. - These pieces of the story are coming back to me. Like the thing of the in the police station, where I'm like, I think I did do this at a live show. - I think you did. - But my brain is such that it's also a very new experience to where I'm like, he did not get parole. - Did you do it in New York? Be in New York? - I don't fucking know. - Who cares? - Let's just talk. I mean, let's just talk. That's what our podcast is called now. - That's what it's about. - Let's just talk. - We love talking. - Okay, so he's parole. - And then in April, on April 22nd, 1874. - All right. - This, let's get spumber. - Okay. - I mean, not that it hasn't been. - Two boys playing in the marshes between South Boston and South, near South Boston. - Say it. - Savon Hill. - A spell it. - S-A-V-I-N. - Oh. - Savon? - Savon or Savon? - Savon Hill. - Or a third option that we could never anticipate. - That's not spelled the way it sounds. - Or yeah, it's seven. - Okay, go ahead. - They discovered the body of a young boy lying on his back in the mud. - I know. - So little boys find a dead little boy? - Yeah. - Police are summoning the boys, identified as Horace Millen of South Boston. He's four years old. - Oh, yeah. - I know, I'm sorry. His throat's been cut and his body had been, had numerous stab wounds, around 33 total. - Whoa. - He'd also been sexually mutilated. - Fucking poor lady. - Escalation. - Escalation. - Yeah. Police found footprints nearby that led back to a wharf a half a mile away. And there, they like follow the fucking footprints and they're like, "Hey, anyone around here "seeing anything this morning?" And a bunch of witnesses recall a young teenager walking around with Horace. The boys, the two boys, the teenager and Horace then jump from the wharf. The older boy helps this little companion down. And then he takes the older boy's hand and together they walk away across the marshes towards where Horace's body had been found. - Awful, I know. - And also very Mary Bell? - Yeah, Mary Bell is like always mentioned in this kind of, in his articles. - Yeah, it's that same thing. And she was, she was being basically sexually tortured - Totally. - There's no way he wasn't. - Yeah. - Even just like, his, what his dad was doing to him, it was way more than that. - Yes. - Not that, that's an excuse. This is Horace. - Okay. - Here we go. - All that. - Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. - Okay. This time because of his record, though, the police fucking were like, we know who did this. They arrest Jesse at his home where they found blood on his clothes, scratches on his skin, and the soul of his boots matched. The imprints left on the sand, and there was also marshmallow on his boots. And so when the police confronted him and asked him if he'd done it, he replied, I suppose so. Oh, non-class, I suppose so. His only request was that the police not tell his mother of his, of the latest cry. So I think his mom was like crazy, probably religious and overprotective of him. - Yeah. - And, you know, that made him crazy, too. - She also, I bet maybe, had some guilt 'cause the dad was so awful. - Right. There's no way that he reads correctly, parent a child. I'm sorry to tell you guys. - Georgia, with parenting advice. - She cuts. - She cuts. - That equals one child. Right? That's what we agreed upon. - One silent child. That's what we agreed on. A few days later, though he takes back his confession, denies any wrongdoing, et cetera. So he's waiting trial. He's sitting in fucking jail, waiting trial. And Ruth Pomeroy, his mommy, fucking dearest, she continues to river racially insist Jesse's innocent. She's forced to close her dress shop a month after Jesse's arrest. And because the public was pissed the fuck off, probably. - Yep. - And her shop's now vacant. - Hi, how are you doing? - Her shop's now vacant. I'm gonna give you a clue. It's not a monkey that they find. - Oh, no. - Shop's vacant. It's rented out by the owner of a nearby grocery store. He starts renovations. Don't do that. Do it, though. In late July, a worker knocking down a wall in the cellar, noticed some bright fabrics sticking out of a pile of ashes and rubbish. He reaches down and gives it a pull and a child's skull rolls out of the, rolls out. - Ugh, and the scream could be heard for blocks away. - For decades. - Oh, yay. The police were summoned. They're not called. - They are summoned. - They're not, 'cause there's no phones. - The police have a long letter written to them that they received two months later. - A tin can is held up with a string. And police are like, a line of children yelled down the street in grape, you know, what's that called? - Oh, telephone? - Telephone? - No, it's not called that, though. - Yeah, when you whisper into people's ears. - Yeah, but there's no such thing as the telephone, so it's not called that. - Yeah. - Is this pre-telephone days? - Isn't it? - I don't know. - Someone assigned a telephone person email. - A telephone scientist. - We'd love to hear from you. - Is that a thing? - Email us. - You're just gonna be some person. Actually, I am a telephone scientist and you're correct. It's gonna be some sweet email. - It's gonna be how we deserve. - My name's Jan Edison and my great-grandfather was Thomas Edison. - Do you want a tour of the, 'cause everyone who emails us is nice. Like, we don't deserve how nice everyone is to us. - No one attacks us. - Never. - Everyone's like, "We think you're great." We get what you meant. And we forgive your stupidity. Here's the fact, so you should be saying. - Oh, God, we're so lucky. Okay. But police are pretty sure the skeleton belongs to. Because earlier that year, on March 18th, just six weeks after Jesse got out of that reformatory before his first murder of Horace, nine-year-old Katie Kern had disappeared while running an errand in the neighborhood of the dress shop. The cops had searched the entire neighborhood, including the pomeroy store, but stopped searching with another kid in the neighborhood, told him that they'd seen a girl matching Katie's description, get into a buggy with a strange man. Plus, they were like Jesse likes boys, so. - Oh, right. - It's not his Emma. - Right. So, but Katie's mother identifies the clothes that they found as Katie's and an angry crowd gathers around the block. So they take Mrs. Palmer and Charles, the brother into custody for their safety. They end up being there for like six fucking weeks. - Whoa. 'Cause people are just like, they had it. - Yeah, yeah. - And they need to be witnesses in the trial too. - Jesse confesses to Katie's murder. He tells the chief of police that Katie had gone, so Katie had gone out that morning to buy school thing, a school supply thing. But had gone into pomeroy store by mistake. She had asked Jesse if they had one. He was manning the counter alone. Remember how she was like, you guys gotta work here. - Yeah. - He lied and told her there was a store downstairs. And then he said that when she went downstairs, his quote, "I followed her, put my left arm around her neck about her neck and my hand over her mouth. And with my knife in my right hand, I cut her throat." I then dragged her to and behind the water closet and put some stones and ashes on the body. So fucking crazy. - It's so bad. - And it is reminding me of the alien-esque like. - Yeah. - It's so parallel. - Well, they go and interview him. Remember in his solitary confinement to try to find the killer in the show? - That's right. - Remember that's why I found that chain. And oh my God. - Yeah. Guys, watch it. The Katie's body had, did show signs that he had done more to her than he said. There'd also been wounds, sad wounds and mutilation much like the millen kid. Later when asked it in quest why he'd done it, Jesse said, I don't know, I couldn't help it. It's here, said pointing to his head. It is here, he said. Well, he pointed at his head. - You said that twice for, 'cause I said underlying it. - It's here. And that's not a quote. It is here. - It's just so awkward. Okay. - That's how people talk back then. - I know. - Especially in Boston. - Especially in Barra Promba. - Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Okay. Okay. In December, Jesse's tried for the millen murder and people are like, how the fuck did this happen? I guess this was not a normal thing. This, there had never been a boy serial killer before. - He's the first fucking one. - Yeah. in America. They wanted to know why it committed such atrocities, tons of experts were hired and they all hypothesized wrong with him, but also like it's crows back then no one knew what the fuck was going on. It's the telephone and that person was a witch and got drowned. So there's no such thing as lamps they're trying to put into our homes. Exactly. There's no such thing as telephones or a witch. They ultimately though didn't think he was insane just evil and had no feelings for his victims and felt no remorse for any of his acts, which we all know of that now. Come on. And Ruth continues to fucking be like, he's innocent. And she was even like Katie's body would just put in the cellar after she left the store by someone else to like frame her kid. She just wouldn't fucking buy it. Honey. I know, sweetie. The Jerry Convicts, Jesse Amp for a story murder with a recommendation of Mercy because of his age. So he could have, they could have recommended death by hanging, but they were like, he's fucking 14 at this point. God. But then the judge was like, nope. I sent him to be fucking hanged. Yep, hanged, which and everyone freaked out and was like, you can't hang a child. And so eventually his sentence is commuted to life and solitary confinement. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So on September 7th, 1876, just three months shy of a 17th birthday. Okay, I was wrong about the age. Just three months shy of a 17th birthday, Jesse was taken to the state prison at Charlestown, where for the next 16 years, he lived in a 10 by 8 by 8 cell built in 1805 to house the insane. So you can't imagine it was fucking choice digs. In that, and in that TV show, it's awful. It's like a dungeon basically, totally. And he's so fucking scary. How about that fucking actor who I didn't even think until this very moment was an actor because he was so scary in that part? Is he? Who is he? Who is he? Jesse Palmer? Job, fictional Jesse Palmer. That's right. Okay, so he tries to escape all the time. Doesn't happen. But he also becomes a voracious reader reads all 8,000 books in the prison library, which is like, you got time on your hand. Yeah, that's right. He learns French, German, Greek, Latin, all this other shit. And he becomes what? And then he becomes Hannibal Lecter. I mean, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. That's also insanely tragic, isn't it? Because if his fucking father left him alone, he could have been in my theory, associate path, who doesn't write people, but who was incredibly intelligent and then just kind of didn't care if he saw bad things happen. Or it's like, too, that you think like, if he hadn't had these, these oddities about him, that kids didn't fucking mercilessly bully him about. He wouldn't have been so angry and have so much anger to get out on children that were smaller than him. You know, he, they took it out on him, whatever's going on in those kids house. He took it out on smaller children. Yeah. But the difference is like teasing and being mean is right. But what this guy did was like, he's a psychopath. Totally. Yeah. I mean, between home and school though, he never had a moment of not being, because they didn't just tease him. I'm sure they beat him up and shit. I'm not defending a fucking site like, no serial killer. No, no, no. But you are arguing nature versus nurture. I am never, I am doubling up on my birth control tonight, because I am never having fucking children. Just take two extra. I'll be fine. I do think nature versus nurture. I think nature and nurture, but I don't think you can have. I don't think. All right. Anyway, as a theory, how many semesters of psychology did I take at community college, do you suppose? Did you do half and then drop out? I probably took level one, like three times and dropped out each time. You heard that story of the guy that got this, the fencing sword up his nose that touched his front of lobe. And no one loved that. Lost his right. Long-term memory or whatever. Great. It was very fascinating. Phineas Gage. Is that him? Yeah. Okay. And he'd come to me. Phineas Gage is the guy that had the full-on railroad tie. And I said, though, what were you talking about? There's one guy that got a fencing sword. Oh, I don't know. This one. Up his nose touched his front of lobe and then every time you walked in the door, he'd be like, hi, good to see you. And then you'd leave in one minute later. And he'd be like, oh, my God, hi, good to see you. That must have been level two because I don't know that guy. Karen, you must have gone further in. I mean, but also, I don't think we even have to say this anymore could be completely wrong about that. But we aren't. Okay. Pretty glad. And he becomes obsessed with learning about law and attempt to get himself the fuck out of prison. Wow. All this shit happens, but it never works. Obviously. Later, a commission of three psychiatrists, maybe are fucking dude from the alianist. Oh, yeah, that's right. And a prison physician studied him. And in 1914, after he'd spent 38 years in solitary, they found him to be sane and intelligent, but a cold paranoid manipulator utterly obsessed with his pardon. So not only person who visited him was his mother who visited him every month and tell her death around 1915. Wow. And then in the late 1920s, Jesse was the state's oldest prisoner. Whoa. Which is like, and there's photos. There's like photographs of him. He looks like just an old man. Yeah. Cause he was just an old man. I wonder what would happen if he'd let him out? He would have murdered people. Immediately go kill a guy. An Albert fish would be like, what's up real? We're gonna be roomies. I've got your needles. This is a fucking sitcom. Yeah. I got your needles. Um, did you do? Okay. Okay. In 1916, 41 years into his fucking sentence. So he's like, double the time he was alive or out. Right. Jesse's solitary confinement is lifted. He, he had spent the longest stretch and solitary confinement. Second only to the Birdman of Alcatraz. Oh, that's right. Yeah. The Birdman of Alcatraz is a good movie by the buy. I should watch it again. Clint Eastwood Alcatraz San Francisco birds. What, what more could you want? Listen, we're offering you so much. Look at that movie. Um, okay. We're coming to an end here. Guys, come down in 1929, 92. And then he wrote books and showed two in 19. And I'm going to read you one now. Yes. In 1929, 71 year old Jesse Pomeroy is removed from the general population at Charlestown, taken by automobile. His first and only ever fucking automobile ride. Oh, it's taken by automobile, automobile. Yeah. To an automobile. To an automatic, uh, to auto bridge water prison farm, for medical care, uh, first only car ride. First time being outside the prison in about 55 fucking years. Jesus. And everyone was like, he seemed non fucking plused by it. He just didn't give a shit. Didn't give a shit. Which is like fair enough. Your brain at that point has to be mush two years later, uh, after 58 years in prison, um, almost all of it spent in solitary confinement. Jesse Pomeroy, the boyfein dies at bridgewater. He was, uh, dismissed in the press as, quote, the most friendless person in the world and, quote, a psychopath. Um, his final wishes were that his body be cremated and his asherds. That's my brother's name. And his ashes scattered to the four wins. Wow. That's the story of boyfein Jesse Pomeroy. Ah, Boston. Sorry. That is the most nuts-o-story. I know. I tried to do my best, but not it was great. Okay. Um, it was fresh and new for me. I just wanted to change the age of this podcast. It's always a new story for me. Jesus, I pull something out of my nose. I just really wanted to tell you you were right about the alien. I kept going back to that and like, why are you doing this story? It's so horrible. It's like Karen will like the start of it. A hundred percent. I like the whole thing, but also because I feel like those are the stories. Those are the stories I like to talk about the most because it's long and long ago. So we don't have to be as sad as we normally feel. Right. Even though it's awful. And then there's that interest of like the way things were set up. This was like probably right when like police forces began. Right. It's all that kind of stuff where everyone was learning. And I'm sure no one was going to go, oh yeah, 12 year olds killing these kids. Like no one there. I'm sure they were like a wolf is loose and I'm in Boston. I mean, I didn't get into how fucking bananas the press went over this at the time. Yeah, it was it was unprecedented. And I think stories like this and fucked up stories like the candy man and shit are like important because you can't just like you have to this exists. And this is what happened. And we, you know, you have to I don't have to tell you exactly what he did to his victims. But I, but it's a crazy fucking story that and it's a real thing that right. This is a human condition. Exactly. Dream and rare. This is something people human beings can do. Yeah. Which people have been in denial about. Right. Which is why we're obsessed with true crime is that where you can't believe that humans are capable of this. So we want to know as much as possible because we're so compounded by it. Yeah. And so you can't skip over the really, really worst ones because those happen too. I mean, you can't ask people are tuning in for that shit. Nobody wants that. Everyone's like, tell me the worst please. Well, I was just thinking like all the people who were like, I have a baby that's boy and I can't, I can't listen to this stuff. And I'm like, all right. Why have two baby nephews? And I want to know about this shit. I'm fascinated. It horrifies me. I want-- We all know babies. Quit bragging everybody. [LAUGHTER] Please, put that on your shirt. We all know babies. Let's quit holding your baby friendships over my head. I like what I like. Enough. Oh, wow. [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, we're back. Are there any updates for this one? There are no updates. But there are some books written about him, one by him, an autobiography, which is very surprising. Yes. And a documentary called Jesse Plomeroy, The Boston Boy Fiend, which I haven't seen it. It looks like it's an upcoming independent documentary. So look out for that. That's very interesting. No other updates. So let's get into Karen's story about Issae Segawa. [MUSIC PLAYING] Mine is another one of these stories, interestingly, that so famous I had to contact-- as we said, contact Steven, because I was like, how do we not do this? Yeah. And as I read it, I was like, I could hear you. I could hear your voice saying it. It's like, this could be. I could be making a huge mistake. It's the story of Issae Segawa, the Japanese cannibal who walks free. Do you know? I don't. And I know if I would have known if you'd done this. Get ready to fucking scream. On the night of June 11, 1981, by the way, Steven helped me with most of this research with chronology. Today, thank you, Steven. But then I also watched the beginning of an amazing documentary from Channel 4, Britain's Channel 4 channel that makes incredible documentaries for TV. And there was a really old one that they had made about this guy. And it was called, "Excuse me for living," which is the name of one of the books he ended up writing. That's a great name. Isn't it the best? But then when you find out what-- I don't want him to own it. I know it's so good. But it really goes crazy in depth on his side of things and kind of whatever his experience. But it's really, really fascinating and really well put together. And very old. It looks like you're watching footage from the '50s. I love it. The older the better, because then they can't-- shit doesn't get clouded and facts don't get factored. Yes. Let me hear-- I don't know anything about it. OK, cool. Also, in this documentary, there's British people from what look like the '70s always a joy. There's people named Colin with wiery, crazy hair that's going over to one song. The eyebrows. Yes, there's a lot of action, a lot of tweed. Love it. Highly recommend. OK, so on the night of June 11, 1981, 25-year-old Dutch student, Renee Hardveld, was studying at the Sorbonne in Paris. And she arrived at her classmates flat, thinking she was there to help him translate some German poetry for him. I never trust a German poet. Ah, there you go. She met the small, quiet 32-year-old Japanese student in one of their classes that they had together. She noticed he was isolated at the French University. He seemed awkward. He was slightly odd. He was very small. He was four foot nine. Wow. So she felt compassion, being alone in the foreign city. She could empathize with, so when a group of her classmates made dinner plans, she invited him along. She's a sweet baby angel, right? They had a long conversation that night on a full range of topics. And overall, for everybody, it was a success. So soon after, he asked Renee for help translating the German poetry that he had been struggling with. So she went over to his apartment to work on it with him. Go to a public place. Well, she thought they'd already hung? I know, I know. But the society never-- It's very small. She's like, he's pocket-sized. There's no threat to public place. So the first night she goes over to help him translate his German poetry, the night ends very abruptly and oddly. Send her a letter saying, sorry about everything last night. Can you please come back over tonight? I really need this help. And I would really appreciate it. So she goes back over. And that's the night of June 11th. OK. So she feels like she gets that this guy might be uncomfortable, maybe uncomfortable around women or whatever. So she's like, it's fine. She goes back over. She sits down at his desk, which leaves her with her back to the room. And as she is looking over, the homework that he needs help with, he walks up behind her with a gun with a silencer on it and shoots her in the back of the head. Holy shit. He immediately faints. Oh my god. When he wakes up, he has sex with her corpse and then tries to eat her. Because it turned out he was not a awkward-- 4 foot 9. He was 4 foot 9, though. But he was not a tiny, powerless, awkward little man. He had been planning to kill her for quite some time. Oh my god. Because he wanted to eat her. What? The man's name was Issei Sagoa, and he had a lifelong obsession with cannibalism. He was born in 1949 to wealthy parents in Kobe, Japan. He was very premature. So premature that when his father held him for the first time, he held him in the palm of his hand. Oh god. That tiny. That's so sad. Yeah. His strict but loving parents had another son one year later and raised them as twins. Because he say was so small that he, being the older brother, looked like the younger brother. And as his brother grew up normally and fully, he was very skinny. He just was tiny. And he was very, very self-conscious of it from a very early age. Aren't we all so fucking self-fucking conscious of our bodies? All the time. And from a very early age. I'm watching this documentary. And I'm like, it would be great to be tiny, skinny, and for nine. Isn't that always the fucking thing? We're all now at this moment in time just learning radical self-immolation. Acceptance, excuse me. I've had two cans of fucking sparkling wine. If we could just learn to spontaneously combust ourselves into the stratosphere-- Think of all the way you would lose. Think about the universe loving you if you were just particles on fire. That's right. OK. So he is obsessed with the fact he repeatedly in these documentaries talks about himself being ugly, being tiny, and being skinny. And also oddly, and they have home movie footage in this channel for documentary of his uncle used to come to their house. And they would put on a play where the uncle played a man-eating giant. And two little boys would play princes that he would-- the giant would then grab up, put into a pot, and cook alive, and eat. And so I have fucking chills. Really? That's creepy. Yeah, you had to see it. And he in the documentary, when he talks about it, kind of makes this face like, why did he do that? They're interviewing him? Yes, dude. Yes. OK, go on. It's part of how disturbing this story is. He is-- he basically becomes famous for being a sexual psychopath. How have I never heard of this? Go on. OK. So he attributes that experience. But he also was-- he so he became obsessed with this idea of man-eating giants, monsters that could eat men, human beings, the idea of eating human flesh. To the point we're in first grade, he asked his teacher about the moral repercussions of eating human flesh. Imagine-- now imagine those chills that you would get. How old is a first grader? Is seven? OK. I'm looking at my seven-year-old nephew. Hey, anti-Georgia. What's your stance on eating other people? If I wanted, I would feel like-- Oh, my god. You'd be shaking. You'd be like, excuse me. I'll be back in one second away from you, Micah. You'd pull a clearly starling out. Now use your phone, please. Oh, my god, that was-- That was beautiful, Karen. Thank you. He thought the idea of the reason he was so obsessed with it is that he thought that if he could eat other human beings, it would fill him out and make him bigger, stronger, make him-- he felt like he was only half there. Oh, god. And then everybody else was fully formed. Oh, man. So he got this idea and it became a subsession. If he could just consume someone else, it would fill him out and make him whole. I mean, I get-- I think it's crazy, and he's mentally ill, but I get from first grade on having this subsession. Yeah, the logic of it. Right. Yes, for sure. The logic of the crazy I fucking get. Well, Anne-- I've been crazy and obsessed with a specific thing in my life many fucking times. Yeah. Well, Anne, to the point where, like, when you've body dysmorphia, when you see yourself one way, you literally cannot see yourself in any other way. Everyone sees it. And obsesses on it when, in fact, everyone's just obsessing about themselves. Exactly. But when you also have then some kind of a psychopathy, then that obsession doesn't, you don't, don't get distracted by their things, you, you continue to obsess on it to the point where then you begin to fantasize about it. And so then when he moved into adolescence, the obsession on the fantasies, it, they became intertwined, the sexual aspects, and the cannibalism became intertwined. So this is level three of psychology. This is, I am pretending to know what I'm talking about to the point where I'm starting to believe it. And it feels. Sounds great. Fucking great. Yeah, it sounds great. It's a true victory for me tonight. Okay, so when he's 15, he actually, it gets so bad he reaches out to a psychiatrist. Okay. It explains that he is having sexual fantasies involving murder and cannibalism. And. Oh my God. He also tells them that he's, it's, it's focused on Western, they keep referring to them as Western women. But it's basically white women, tall, blonde, kind of Marilyn Monroe type women that are fully curvy and curvacious. And that's what he's seeing is that would fill me up, that would make me whole. Got it. It's also symbolic. Once he spills the beans, he's too scared to go back. So he just never goes back again. And at one point, maybe a little later on, he also goes to his brother and confides in his brother that he wants to eat human flesh and his brother's like, you fucking nut and never talks about it again. Isn't that great? Because I was going to be like, well, he's so crazy. Or like mentally ill, he doesn't know to go get help. But then he fucking did. Yeah. Like when I am starting to obsess about a thing, I know to go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Right. He did that. And he actually, and he was young too, which is really hard. It's hard when you're younger to be like, I'm going to get some professional involved in any of this. Probably in the Japanese culture too. Yes. That can't be a big thing. Right? I don't know, but I'm saying yes, very authoritatively. I bet someone will very nicely correct us. Hopefully. Okay. So it's not until he's 23 and he's still living at his parents' house that he finally acts on these obsessions. A young German woman moved into the neighborhood and he sees her and he's like, this is my chance. He starts obsessing on her and he's obsessed with biting her butt. Okay. So one night, he breaks into her apartment. He only has an umbrella in his hand. He's wearing a Frankenstein mask. But remember, he's four foot nine. That's scary. It's horrifying. He goes into her room. She's asleep and he's standing there trying to figure out what to do first and his knee touches her leg and he wakes her up. So a tiny Frankenstein with an umbrella is standing next to her bed. She starts screaming. He freaks out. He goes to run away. She grabs him by the hands and wrestles him to the ground and calls the cops. So the cops come. They arrest him. What the fuck? He's on attempted rape charges. But then he says father is very rich and Vera has a big influential fancy job. So the father pays off this German woman to drop the charges. So she takes the money and she's like, see you later alligator and nothing else happens. Except for they send him to a psychiatrist again. Okay. But like this time now, the whole family knows. He goes to the psychiatrist. The psychiatrist gets downloaded and all the shit that's going on with him. And the psychiatrist comes back and tells his or his parents or whatever that he is a sexual psychopath and extremely dangerous. Oh my God. They're like, thanks a million and they do nothing. Later days. So five years later in 1977, he say moves to Paris to pursue his PhD in comparative literature at the Sorbonne. I mean, I didn't graduate. I didn't finish community college and I'm not a sexual sadist. That's both of those things are true. Two truths in a line. Let's hear that line. That's crazy. Well, also he's clearly very high level intelligence. So there's so much going on. Okay. So I don't feel bad. Yeah, don't feel bad at all. Okay. But now he's in Paris, though, surrounded by the object of his, the objects of his sadistic, murderous fantasies. Everywhere he looks, there's these big, huge, comparatively Western women that he has been spending all of his young life in Japan obsessing over and thinking about and rarely seeing. Now he's fucking smack dab in the middle. Oh shit. In 1979, he basically is, he's of course still thinking about it. He's like, he wants to do it. He knows he has to. It's his obsession. Then in 1979, the American actress Jean Seberg commits suicide in her car in Paris and it's right near his apartment. And so he sees that as a sign that now it's time to start committing the basically to make his fantasy. No, it's not. Yeah. So throughout that year, he started hiring sex workers to come back to his apartment, but he never had the guts to do anything out of control in any way that anybody reported or anybody knew about. But then one day, Renee Hartfeld walks into his classroom and he is immediately obsessed with her. He thinks she's beautiful. He starts drawing pictures of her and he begins to plan her murder so that he can eat her. Um, so, so we skip back to the night where he shoots her. He faints. Perfect. When he comes to rape the corpse, then he tries to tear her flesh with his teeth, but it doesn't work. He can't do it. So he leaves and he goes and buys a butcher and I he comes back to his apartment. He cuts her up and cooks some of her flesh and then on the night of June 12, he takes a cab carrying two big, huge, heavy suitcases to a place called Bois de Boulin. I think that sounds outrageous. Thank you. It sounded right. Boulin. It's a public park. Okay. In Paris, that has a big lake and his plan, it's 8.30 at night. His plan is going to take these two suitcases that have her cut up body parts in them and put them into the lake. No. But he doesn't know that there's a restaurant lake side. Oh, shit. So as he is struggling with two huge, heavy suitcases trying to pull them down to the lake, all these people witness him. And they're like eating their fucking chicken dianne and they're like, look at their French onion soup. Tiny Japanese men. And their baguettes. That's right. And they see a tiny Japanese man struggling, struggling, struggling with two suitcases. To the point where he struggles for so long to get them down into the water, he finally gives up near the edge of the lake, lays down on a bench and goes to sleep. When he wakes up, he sees an old man opening one of the suitcases. When the old man sees what's inside, he starts screaming and he say, gets up and calmly walks away. Holy shit. And disappears. How the fuck have I never heard of this banana story? Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I've heard large swaths. Yes. That's it. It's because I was waving my hand at my own like thing, a paintbrush. I've swathed it, but I never knew these fucking not so details. So he just fucking high-tells it out of there slowly, which just creeps me out. So basically all those witnesses call the police, the police. They all say, yep, we saw a cab drop the sky off. He tried to do this, whatever. They find the cab driver, the cab driver is like, yeah, I assumed I was taking him to the train station because he had these two huge suitcases and they're like, what's his address? So they go to his address. He's walking out as the police are walking up and he just immediately confesses to everything. So they don't, he's just arrested and taken in. But then the police have to go up and do his apartment and what they find up there is the grisliest grossest scene. There's more. Yes, because, well, because he'd cut up her body and so there was wrapped up body parts in his refrigerator and there's cooked body parts on plates on his kitchen table, along with a plate of peas. No. It was like he had set up this whole dinner and he had been like kind of you know, eating, eating four days. Oh my God. So he is held in prison in Paris, but his father is rich father, gets him a high-powered attorney. He comes in front of the judge, Judge Louis Brougierre, I think, Axante Gu. And that judge declares that anybody who would prepare in advance to kill any someone could not be mentally sound. And so he believes that Asagawa is suffering from advanced dementia and he orders him to be confined indefinitely to the Henri Coulain asylum for the criminally insane, there's no trial. So while he's in the asylum, Japanese writer in Hiko Yamota, hopefully, interviews him about these crimes and about his life. And they have a bunch of conversations, talk a bunch, and eventually they turn all of that into a biography about Sagoa called In the Fog. And when that biography comes out, in Japan, it fucking sells out nationwide. Holy shit. What the fuck? Since no murder charge is ever brought against him in France, the French authorities end up deporting Sagoa back to Japan. And he sent to a place called the Matsuzawa Hospital. His father's forced to resign from his high power job, his mother attempts suicide. So this, of course, is horrible for the family. But ESA is becoming a cult phenomenon. So when the book sells out, people are fascinated and they say that they think the theory is because Western women are just a kind of a conceptualized object over there. He became like an anti-hero. Oh my God. So it was like this thing, it wasn't personal to anybody because none of these women looked like any of that. So it was just this kind of, yeah, it was just kind of the perfect objectification where people could just be fascinated by the grisly hideousness of the crime. Like it was the murder of an idea, not an actual woman whose family was mourning her. It was like, you want to murder this idea. And with that, the media went berserk. And at one point, it's a French magazine called Perry Match. And it publishes previously unseen shocking photos of her of Renee's dismembered corpse. It's such a scandal. A reporter actually gets arrested for it and a million copies of the magazine are seized by the authorities. Oh my God. So they fucking go round that shit up. Can you find it online? No, I didn't look at it. I would never, I wouldn't look either. Yeah. But I saw the plate of peas in one of the documentaries and I was like, I just, I'm never going to get that plate of peas out of my head on that dinner table. Sure. That's plenty for me. But it was that it was that kind of insane media frenzy that kind of was making it popular and so well known. Well then on August 12, 1986, Sagoa is set free from the mental hospital that he was sent to due to lack of evidence against him, because the French authorities have all the evidence and they locked it up and locked him up in Japan. It's not. Yeah, it doesn't. So basically he's got that he's got the juice to get him out. Shit. His family gets him out three years later, a man in Japan abducts and kills four girls. He basically, this guy goes on a murder spree and the media goes to Sagoa and asks him to weigh in on the killer. And from there, he becomes, he starts to become like a media celebrity. He starts becoming a columnist for newspapers. He writes, after in the fog, which was his first book, he writes 18 more books about himself, cannibalism, his murder, all of it. He got to be a psychopath if you can write 18 fucking books for real, but I'm not like joking about writing books. Like that's crazy. No, and also all about himself, so like so crazy, crazy self obsession. He also appears on television shows and begins to work the lecture circuit. No. Yeah. Eventually, and this is the part where I watched the Channel 4 documentary and then there was another, another documentary from 2007 and I think it was also a British one from Channel 5, but I might just be saying that because the other one is from Channel 4, but that also interviewed him and much older. And he started starring in Pornow, Sadomacicistic Porn, where he would be getting beat up, tied up, slapped around by big Western women, white women, one of the Pornows that he stars in featured him having a relationship with a Dutch woman, where they actually go to like this theme park that's Dutch themed. So it is like beyond the bounds of good, a bad taste, beyond the bounds of exploitation, like he enjoys the fact that he is, he is like this disgusting celebrity for this crime. Family. Yes. Yeah, that's what everyone, all the people, the talking heads in these documentaries, the cops. And there's a, there is a really amazing, a professor, a professor that they talk to from Cambridge, who's like all of his books are immoral garbage. So does the judge who, in France, does he get, talk shit on, who like, was like, he's just crazy, let's send him away. I doesn't seem like it. No, none of those things really seem to be connected in any way, like he had been brought to trial in France then maybe. But basically, I'm not fucking blaming French people, just that one judge or it's like, you got to let other people decide if he's crazy or not. Maybe it was his theory and there wasn't enough like psychological evidence to argue it. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, that's, I think that that was the beginning of the breakdown. Also, it is dad having had enough money and this is again, just a theory of mine I'm making up in the, on the spot, he might have just paid that judge off and he's just like, yeah, it's that or he would have gotten, he had the trial, if it had gotten to trial, he would have had a fucking great attorney and would have gotten him off anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered. I mean, the whole, but the whole thing is so insane and disgusting because he did it. He said he did it, the evidence, he did it. He took this life and then defiled it the worst way he possibly could and then just kind of nothing happened. Yeah. So in these documentaries, he's, he's telling people about him, he's taught, he loves talking about himself. You know, laughing and he says, he, he claims that he has no desire to murder anyone, but he still wants to eat a woman. So it's not the murder he tries to rationalize, but it's just the eating of the flesh. And he also, you clearly, he has romanticized and rationalized this idea that whole theory of if I just eat someone that I will be whole and all that stuff is basically kind of his like calling car of like, here's why I did it and it's almost poetic how I needed this because I'm so small and ugly for me. Yeah. I want to say. Yeah. Okay. Come on. In 2009, he gave a vice and interview and vice, so vice did a whole story about him, which I didn't watch because after the second documentary I watched, I was like, I've had it with this guy. Yeah. But Steven told me a super hilarious part. Do you want to tell everybody about part? Okay. Yeah. When I was reading or looking at this interview, the part that really stuck out to me was the interviewer at some point, I think like a third of the way through, he said, I'm just going to plot ahead with these questions so I can get the fuck out of here. That's how creepy this guy is. Oh my God. Like, and at the beginning of the, excuse me for living documentary, it's really beautifully and amazingly shot. He's getting a haircut, but he's just staring into the camera as someone cuts his hair. And I swear to God, he doesn't blink for like two minutes. Oh my God. It's really, really fucking unnerving and very strange. I don't want to watch it. I want to see a photo. Yeah. You have to look at it. But when Steven sent me that text, I was just like, holy shit, it must, he must be so much even more of his life after, because he's still alive, he's still free. He's both his fans. He's fucking famous. Yes. He doesn't have any money, like he had to pay off his parents' debts and he was like living in whatever state run housing for a while or whatever, but basically he's living free and he's kind of doing it every once and people are still talking to him about his crime even to this day. Oh, also, in that vice interview, I read a thing where he said he would love to be killed by a beautiful woman or he would love to drown in female saliva. And that, my friend, is Japanese, cannibal, Issei, so go on. What the fucking fuck is that, not? Yes. There's lots of things you can watch with that guy in it, talking about himself. I just want to say a photo of him, but I don't want to watch anything. Okay. We'll get you a photo. Okay. I'll email you a photo later tonight. I love that. Okay, perfect. Wow, Karen, any updates. The only update to this case is that in November of 2022, Issei Sagawa died from complications of pneumonia at age 73. That's it. It makes me a little relieved for, you know, like deep down in my heart that he's not walking the earth anymore in a way that was like freaky that he was. Him getting away with it was just unsettling. Yes, it is. And weird and like, it's what makes me fascinated about like trying to learn about psychopaths and sociopaths where it's like they don't like they can do stuff like that keep on going write a book beyond talk shows like that's the idea there's still admit. He's still interested in what is like on TV shows. Yeah. Not changing. Not knowing that he needs to keep that to himself. I keep meaning to read that psychopath book, you know the um not a biography what is it called is it the sociopath next door? That's the one. I keep wanting to read that. It's so good. It's really skinny. You can it's incredibly good writing But technical like you're really learning something. Yeah, but it's not long which of course that's all that's all I can do Then welcome to the 80 HD book club 50 page. I'm literally reading an 80 HD book right now from scattered mines 80 We'll do Jesse Palmer's autobiography. Yeah, this short a sociopath next door very short and whatever you're reading an 80 HD workbook Every page has one thing on it. They're like wait. No, no, no, come back. Yeah stop. Yeah. Okay. Let's uh, let's get into our fucking arrays Oh God. Yeah, I need a fucking hooray silkwood shower after this episode. How about we fucking hooray ourselves out of out of all those bad vibes right now? Let's do it. Okay. This is something that I found a guy that I follow on Twitter name Adam just go it Just go it. Yeah He tweeted this This afternoon and I I can't stop watching it. So apparently on the Lakers I'm about to talk about basketball, which I know nothing about get ready. Okay. We're going into a totally new territory. I'm ready I'm scared. I'm here with you. Stay with me. Let's do it The apparently the Los Angeles Lakers heard of them. That's a team here in our city. They there is a guy who Last night played in the game of basketball. Okay He spent 10 years in something called the G league. Okay, so he basically was like a farm team is what I'm assuming. Okay for basketball Spent 10 years playing in it and last night played his furt. They brought him up to the big leagues and they he played his first Game as a Los Angeles Laker against Houston. Mm-hmm. He scored fucking 19 points people were chanting MVP He just keeps hitting threes. They have to see there is all good things. I don't know. Yes, it's the best amazing There's a one minute video that I retweeted onto my Twitter that I started watching and I couldn't stop crying and This is what I love Adam just go itch who tweeted it originally wrote even if you don't enjoy basketball This is pretty lovely dude fought for a decade for this moment and when it finally happened it was perfect He's also a volunteer tutor to kids and seems like a genuinely good person and in this video His his teammates are up off the bench fucking screaming It is like one of the most inspirational beautiful things I've ever seen and as someone who like You know, I've lived in Los Angeles for 24 fucking years I have tried to do things and given up about four different times Oh, yeah, and to see a thing like that where this is a guy that just plugged along and then walked out on the court and nailed it Mm-hmm, and he's there he's in his 30s. I think so which is you know for NBA player. Yeah, not young Just fucking incredible like if you get a chance even if you don't give a shit about sports look it up You will fucking love this story. Okay. It's the best. I love it. It made me so happy you're crying right now It's I did a light cry. I just fucking really relate his name again Andrei Ingram and he congratulations LA Laker Andre Ingram because the world fucking loves you right now Suddenly we care about fucking basekip all they made us care I have I too want to shout out to Instagrams that are making me happy or like social media things One is this I've it I follow this fucking body positive model on Instagram name Allie Tate who post these photos of herself that are so she's What one would call a plus size model, which means she looks like a normal woman right and she posts photos of herself in Beautiful clothing she posts photos of herself in bathing suits and she has my body She has a normal woman's body and she's so positive about it She posts these photos where she's naked and bending over and there's rolls and it's just made me Look at my own body and be like you that just because you have those things doesn't mean it's unattractive And it's it's been really wonderful and she seems really sweet. So that's allie Tate the other one that's Not body positive, but it's been making me fucking crack up and I think It's brand new. It's called honest couple and oh, yes. That's Jake. Why is Jake? Why is he fucking Instagram account so funny? He takes back in like stock photos of couples that just look like the most annoying couples You've ever seen your life and posts the honest caption of what one of them is really thinking and I just cannot get enough of it And I love it so much. So I think he needs to it needs to be a thing. Yeah, it's so hilarious It's like two people it looks like they're on a hike and they're taking a selfie of themselves They're both smiling and just like stock photo and then underneath that it says he hasn't made her comment to you Or say he made me cry three minutes after this photo was taken. Yeah, it's just like or her friends are the least funny People I've ever met in my like it's just this He was like I'm sick of these photos of like perfect couples and then you find out they broke up a week later So it's really fucking happening so hilarious the best he's so funny and also watch corporate on Comedy Central because he's one of the when the stars That's right. Yeah, great stand-up comic. He is really funny. Oh Matt Englbritzen too. Of course Yeah, Matt come down. Matt you're tall. You're tall. You got it Okay, we're back and I love how obsessed we are with basketball Here's the thing though if you get a good like underdog story I I'll pay attention to any sport because you love those. That's my favorite and just a quick update about Andre Ingram Which I know you've been waiting on pins and needles. Yes, but he did get a little more NBA time after that perfect Lakers debut He scored 19 points in his first NBA game on April 10th 2018 played one more game that season His full NBA career was brief But the story didn't disappear and the NBA still lists that 19 point debut as his career high He also kept on playing in the G league where he started so coming in getting it done in a couple games And then leaving again not the worst thing you can do for professional sports career in a young man's game, too It gives me hope about whatever skills. I don't have yet getting back to roller derby the way you've always talked about Exactly so this episode was originally titled robot grandma But if we were naming it today, there are just a plethora of choices that we could use like of course ready. Okay, yeah, you must we could do Steven Hardstart I'll care of Which is what we would do absolutely team and horse, which is what you said I sounded like when I was laughing in my coffee mug Radical self-imolation Yes, that's right. You know what that word that pops into your head when you can't think of You meant radical self-acceptance. I don't know what that is Listen, we used to speak so freely on the show. God. We really did so fun Well, that's it for this episode of rewind. Let's go and say goodbye from 2018 Thanks for listening you guys was this a three fucking hour episode that was not it feels like it It was a three-can fucking sparkly wine episode. That's how you know Georgia's through half a six pack of wine and Feeling fine feeling myself feeling Sink it Georgia sink it. That's a basketball tube. It's all full fucking circle. It comes back to fucking cheerleading We always bring it back around for you the listener. We love you stay sexy and don't get murdered. Good. Hi. Oh Elvis Right there. Elvis you want cookie?