Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 109: Project Artichoke

[MUSIC PLAYING] This is exactly right. It's Chelsea Handler from Deer Chelsea. This season, we've got some awesome guests ready to dole out advice, guests like Tiffany Haddish. Kind of slide into people's DMs. I like Bumble. Also, girlfarmersonly.com. Like, at states, sales, funerals, options are usually good. There's a lot of good men there. Grocery stores near gyms. Darcy Cardin, Sheri Oteri, Anna Ferris, Dave Franco, Madeline Klein, Adam Scott, T.S. Madison, and more. Listen to Deer Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My first guest is Paris Tolkien. Shakira, Luke, and Yerin. We have surprises, many surprises. Welcome to the Sweetfield Five Podcast, where the give-tech comes to light. Welcome! You're the only person I know that loves the Yellow Starburst. Lemonade. Listen to Sweetfield Five with Lelepons. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Sweetfield Five, and listen now. This is Chelsea Handler from Deer Chelsea. Every week, the news gets worse. The world gets crazier. And Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible, you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Swini was? If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men. Do better, or do less, so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamanika, and I'm out. Listen to You're the Problem with Yamanika, starting on July 15th on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪ Not for you ♪ - Hello. - Hello. And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is that show where we recap our early episodes with new case info and old feelings. Today we're rewinding the episode 109, which we named Project Arted Choke. Oh yes. This episode came out on February 22nd, 2018. Let's listen to the intro of the episode 109. It's getting more uncomfortable at the top of the show. The more the longer we do it. Every time I hear our intros as we're doing them, I think of the person in a car with her friend, who's like, "You have to listen to this podcast. Just please listen to it, Mom. You're going to love it." And then the opening comes in, and it's like, "It gets better." And it's like, "It gets better." "It gets better." And then the opening comes in, and it's like, "It gets better. It gets better." They do this all the time. It's like funny because it's always uncomfortable. It's funny because it's so bad you don't want to listen to it. And that's what they call irony, Mom. Mom, stop judging me. Mom, stop gripping the steering wheel like that. Can I tell you a mom story? Please. I'm going saga of my relationship with my lifetime relationship with my mother. It's always for life with those women. For ever. It's just, hey, they're just there all the every holiday. Oh my god. Until they're not, and so depressing. My mom's mom lived to be 104, so I've got a fucking wild girl. Yeah, that's really heartening. So I told her, I sent out an email to my family being like, "Hey, we're playing the Orpheum on, you know, in March in LA, where you guys want you to come." It's like a big fucking deal, you know? It's like LA, hometown show. The Orpheum's a gorgeous theater. I'm like excited. It's so good. And my dad wrote back, "Oh, be there, you know, plus five." And it was, you know, this person, of course we're going to go. And then my mom wrote back literally, "This is all she wrote. What time?" No, I'm saying what time? 'Cause it was a question mark. What time? What time period? Yeah, what time? I'm saying it as it was written. That, and you know that was her inflection. You know that was her. And I know that's how 71 year olds write emails. Yes, you know what I mean, like they don't. It's just get any letter out that you can't hit son. This was coming from a woman too who went to fucking DC for like a trip and called him and left a voicemail and said, "I won't have long distance, so call John if you need anything." (laughing) How was she getting hold of you? Long distance isn't a thing anymore. Did she mean cellular service? I don't think so. No, I don't think she knows that everyone has long distance. Like that's a thing. This isn't a fucking 10, 10, 3, 2, 1 anymore. (laughing) Mom, I'm calling you on a calling card. So I have to make this quick. I only have seven minutes left. Oh, Janet. Janet, Janet, come on. Standing okay, Janet though, or a few minutes. She goes if it's not past her fucking bedtime. What time? What time? What she, I think really what she was saying is please Georgia, when you communicate with the family, get really specific. I think so too. Let's get organized in these emails. So it's my fault? Yeah. That you're playing the Orphan. Hey guys, we're playing the Orphan on March 16th. Hopefully you can come. It's not sold out, is it? I don't know, but I've released some tickets so it might not be completely, I don't know. Hey, look, I mean, if you're interested in look into it, I don't know. You don't have to. I mean, do your thing. We feel like you've given us enough already. We don't want to make you do anything. My family on the other hand needs to fucking be there. They need to step up. What have they done for me? Now do you know that my father actually-- my sister called me along the same line. And my father called her and said, when he heard we were playing the Orphan, I said, let's go down and be there for that show. So my sister's like, oh my god, dad wants to come down. It's a big deal because his hips all screwed up so he walks like an orangutan. I got it. You see that. So then my sister's like, so I think we're going to come down and shoot my sister to getting all excited or whatever. And then I said, that all sounds great. We'll make it all work for dad. And I said, but you do know that we're coming up back up. See, San Francisco in the fall. And the second I sent the message of, there's a possibility-- this won't be the last show that you possibly could come to. My dad goes, oh, forget it. Just immediately-- immediately bails on the plan. I want him to come, guys. It will be like our families are there. I know. I know, Marty and your dad could hang out. Oh my god, my dad will just shout over Marty's head. Could we talk about our double date with your dad? Please. One of the most romantic evenings that I've experienced in a while. Fucking-- he was down here. And Karen, sheepishly, one of those-- you don't have to do it. It's really fun if you don't want it. I know it's weird, and it's like, do you guys want to go in and do dinner? And Vince and I, of course, like, yes. It felt like we had just gotten off like a nine-day tour together where I was like, hey, how about you make more plans with them? No, you guys don't want to see me. And I also another killgareth. But please come. Please come. Oh my god, it was the best. We went to fucking fancy pants. Mooseone Franks, which is like the fanciest thing. My dad has a special occasion. He's obsessed with Mooseone Franks. I love it. We went there-- he also has great memories because we went there, I think, it might have been 15 years ago. And I was with some of my friends, one of whom was my friend, Kevin Sesha, who decided he was going to drink whiskey neat as his drink. So everyone else was ordering beer and wine or whatever in the orders. He basically orders a double shot of whiskey and my dad goes, Jesus, do you have a gun fight in the morning? And then that was, like, legend for a while. Oh my god. And when my dad said, make the reservation, I want to go to-- he kept joking about it where I'm like, that if you actually want to go to Mooseone Franks, we can. He's like, well, I would like to go there. And then he goes, remember, we went there. And your friend was drinking all that whiskey. I was like, yeah, for someone who drinks that as much as my dad does, it really stood out to him that my friends were doing whiskey shots. You love it. Little did he know that that's all I drank constantly. It was the best. It was so good. And then, like, meeting someone's dad and, like, this is why you're this way. Not even, like, he didn't do anything or say-- he said some funny shit. But, like, just to be like, oh, this is what we're raised by. OK, this is good to know. Yes. And then I could see you getting embarrassed when he said certain things, did certain things that I didn't give a shit about. Well, there was points where he was talking directly over Georgia. Like, Georgia would go, stedadah, and he would just-- well, and then I finally-- and I was mortified. And I realized, oh, he can't hear her, because-- It was really out in the restaurant. My dad has such bad fireman hearing that if you have to have-- No, it's over 70-year-old hearing. Yeah, it's over-- but also all the bells. That's why he started telling you guys that story of all the bells going in all the houses every time there was a fire. That's how the bell system was set up in the firehouses in San Francisco. So the bells just were going off all day long in the years. Oh, I see what you're saying. So they basically all of hearing damage from like 60s to the 80s or whenever they put in their new system. But like, I get it. You were like so embarrassed about it. And I don't care. And totally understood what was going on. Well, it just-- I didn't want you to think he was a blowhard, because he's really not. But he just kept starting conversations, because he did - I didn't look at Georgia, like he would start it and look up and say, "Oh, I'm trying to ask him a question." - I loved it. I just can't sit in silence. - There wasn't, it was actually, it was really, really fun. - Yeah. - Vince and I adored him. - Okay, good. - Adored him. - No, he really is an American classic. And just a good time. - Yeah. - There are a few people that don't have fun with Jim Kilgara. - No. - Jim is our favorite. - Unless you wear a keep America make America great again, and then he'll tell you to take it. - Well done. - You're dad and my dad are not going to get along. - We'll just make a no hats rule. - Okay. - And everybody will be fine. - Okay. - Great. - Do you have any? - Yo yeah. It's the corrections corner that has needed to happen since the moment the last episode dropped. - You practice it twice. - It's so far. - Because it's so unfair. - You practice it twice at the Salt Lake City shows over the weekend, which we're fucking awesome and fun and thank you, Salt Lake City. - Thank you, Salt Lake City. - It's so much fun. - It was an amazing weekend. We had already just had so much fun and Cleveland and Columbus, like we were just having every show is so fun. - And it was like our last shows on tour until Europe, and it was just, it was great. - It was so fun. It was so gorgeous in that city. - Yeah. - But the interesting thing was the, we actually did a show Thursday night, which we almost never do. So the episode had dropped that day. So we were real time with the podcast. - So weird. - We got to do basically a real time, hours later, Corrections Corner, explaining that, yes, in fact, the reason that Georgia had didn't hear about the tree trimmer murder, the Matthew Hoffman guy that had all the leaves in his living room, and that creepy story. - That had happened in November. - And I was like, how do I not hear about this? - And I was like, you know why you haven't heard about it? Because it's so fresh off the process. Well, actually. And in truth, it had happened in 2010 in November of 2010. So I was eight years off. And that's why you hadn't heard of it. And I actually went and looked at the, thank God I still had the article on my like reading tab. And I opened it up like, I bet you this is one of those articles that has a current date, but then they're re-quoting. There's some lie I made up to myself. - Yeah. - No, right there, it was, the article was from 2011, reporting back to a couple months before. - How did that happen? You think one time you put in 2017 on accident and it came, no, it's purely, I wanted it to be, I wanted it to have just happened. - And we're so excited, like this fresh murder, like we always do old shit. It's gonna be like exciting. - Yes. And I feel like with the way the murderino community is, with the way people tell us stuff, the way Twitter is, if there was, like it just felt like to me, like I had stumbled upon a thing that I found first, which is insanity when you think about like, how quickly those stories go up on the face, how quickly people share things. - One person will like, tweet us about it, and then you just hear about it again. So I could see that. - I just think I got so obsessed with those leaves that everything else kind of went faded out around it. - It was pretty fucking great. - I mean, it was great, either way, it was great. - It was a fun experience. Sorry, you had to, I'm done apologizing for it. This is the third time, third and final. If I can, did it live, to everybody. - I'm never talking about it again. We're taking that upside down. We're gonna take it down. - This is the last episode. Steven accidentally deleted it. - That's right. - Oh no. So I hope everyone's happy. But now, you know, I'll be better at checking dates, and everybody, it was really funny. The people who did post on Twitter, we're trying to be so tactful and light about it. It was like, so I don't wanna be this person, but you're a fucking decade off friend. - It was just like, oh man. - Now it happens. - Can't get it right. - I wanted to shout out, oh god, what am I fucking BJ? - Yes, you are. - Didn't you know? - I didn't know. - Your day, Jay Jackson. - One of the gifts we got, of course we got a ton of stuff in Utah, because everyone's Mormon, and they just like craft, like-- - Not everyone is heard. - They're all Mormon, they're wizards. So one of the things we got was like, beautiful, there was two earrings and two necklaces. I found out it's called Quilled, where you take a piece of paper and you turn it into like a flower or whatever the fuck? - Yep. - Quilled, so this girl named Mandy Lee took pages from my sweet Adriana, and made us gorgeous jewelry out of it. - Gorgeous. - And so she, you can buy it at Artsy Heart Sea Botique on Etsy and see it, and so I was looking her up. She also did that adorable line drawing or like stick figure-y drawing of small foreign faction of us in a band, and you and I are planned. - Yeah. - They're both on Elvis on the drums. - Yeah. - She made that too. So she sells mugs and t-shirts and shit of that art print, as well as my sweet Adriana quilt jewelry. And like, she does, the quilt jewelry is like her thing, and she does a ton of Harry Potter book pages. - Oh, nice. - Oh, I know a bunch of people who are gonna like that. - Yeah, it's like really pretty fucking jewelry, and then it also is from my sweet Adriana, which is-- - There were little strips of paper on the back. Like, it would be the thing that the earrings were like pressed into or whatever. And then there would just be a strip of like my sister, Vera said it was like these lines. - So you knew what it was from. - I love it. - And I mean, we get so many. We're sitting amongst a pile, like post-steve and stopping by the PO box, picking up boxes, like fucking cool shit gifts. - Yeah. - Someone, someone drunkenly accidentally, went on it, eBay, and drunkenly bought six packs of true crime trading cards. - Yes. - Only to find that in their state bought six boxes of packs of trading cards. So sent us each a box of a cool box. - I don't know how many are in here, but it's amazing. - A ton, right? - A ton. - Yeah. - I'm just, it's just, we're so lucky. - It's like this is the box they would sell at the store. - Yeah. - It's so cool. - It's really cool. - Also, this is another additional crash in this corner that somebody pointed out that we weren't just talking about the Terminator and Robocop. - Oh. - But you would also fold it in a little bit of total recall into that story as well. - I wasn't even gonna correct that because I feel like that's not, none of that's a mistake. It's just fucking fake. And it's how this, well, what did you say to the podcast? You said someone tweeted you and was like, I hate to tell you guys, but you're, you were talking about two different movies and you said like, you tweeted back, are you new? - Oh, no, no, no. It was like, it was basically a guy who, and I'm sure he was a fan of it, but he was, yeah. He was just going, they were talking about this, but then they actually turned it into this and then this. And they never stopped, it was like this, basically a statement that we never acknowledged it. Or even knew it was happening. And I just wrote back, you must be new here. - Because when doesn't that fucking happen? - That's why I wasn't kind of in corrections quarter that thing. It's because like, we just fucking kept going. And I believed you and you believed in me. - I could see it all in my head. - That might have been a little bit of men and black in there too for all we know. - Here's the thing. We can't wait to hear your podcast and how great that's gonna fucking go. - And how zero mistakes. - I have a fucking maid. - Let us talk on the cuff. - Let us fucking talk. - And one of you has whiskey. (laughing) - Oh, I just also wanted to say, I just wanna give a public formal apology to my dog, George, who, oh my God, George! - Did you see this, Stephen? - George, fiercely private. - My fiercely private dog, George, who doesn't wanna be a part of this podcast in any way. I did a little video of her 'cause she always drinks my fucking water. - She didn't just drink, you made a video where she basically, if dogs could double flip you off. - Yes. - She fucking did a walk-by drink out of your mug and then Karen dryly going, "That's mine." - That's mine. - That's the best. - She, and it's only a four-second video. I highly recommend, if you want to express yourself in any way, do it under five seconds. People really appreciate it. - Totally. - But she looks right at me and then when I say that's mine, she wags her tail and walks away. 'Cause she knows she's supposed to be doing it. It's very cute. But then all these people. - She's also gorgeous, so it's like. - She's a lovely lady. I like that dog because she looks different. Like, when she's drinking the water, her ears are all long and flat and she looks like a hound. But if she hears like a squirrel in the backyard, then her ears flap up and she looks like a lab. Like, she just changes constantly. - She's like Ted Bundy. - Sometimes she wears a really big turtleneck and then sometimes she wears a mock turtleneck. - She's a real fucked up. That's what got her. - But she ended up becoming a Twitter moment and then so all these people that-- - Twitter moment. - And like, her's are like, "Haha, Georgia's famous." - You got so mad. I saw your response to, "What, this is fucked up?" - I know, it was, well, whoever sent it to me first, I thought they were making a joke. And so then when I looked at it, it was like, "What the hell, like what is happening?" 'Cause I don't understand how-- - I don't either. - The moment's being judged. - Yeah, it's like this is just for you. Well, I mean, while I'm sitting here with Elvis petting him and all he's been doing is whole life, he's trying to get fucking famous. - Go viral. - From the internet. He's like this fucking bitch. - This fucking bitch comes in off the side. - Uh-huh. - She's very mad and she's not talking to me. - Yeah, Elvis will ride her down the set of stairs. You know, he did that once with a dog. - Really? - I found a stray. I brought it into my backyard. I lived up a staircase and I went in to get some food for this stray. It was like, like George, like a dog that size. And then I came out to like squeeze through the door to bring the dog to the food. And Elvis, you know, Elvis broke through the door and the dog was at the top of the stairs waiting for the food. Elvis jumped on the dog's back, rode it down the stairs and chased it. Rode a dog and then just chased it out of the yard and the dog didn't come back. And he's like, I'll take that food, please. That's mine now. Oh, what a good boy, okay. And we're back. We're back. I'm trying to remember. Remember your dad coming to the live show. I remember my parents coming to live shows. My sister's still never been to a live show. What? I mean, should I call her on the phone? Should I call her and just be like, listen, let's talk this through? It's so my sister and I that she doesn't want to participate and I won't ask her to. Yes. And I won't expect her to go above and beyond for me because I would never expect someone to go above and beyond for me, even my own fucking sister. You know? Yep. Of course you're not supposed to have needs. You're the little sister. You're lucky to be in the room. And I bet she'd be so happy if I said, I really want you to be there. It's so important for you to be like, why haven't I been vulnerable enough to tell her how I bet that would make her feel really good if I'm like, I don't care if you're there. You don't have to come. You're so right. It's nice. But I'm doing it for her. She's doing it for me and we're both not doing the things for each other. Well, just I think that she would get a real fucking kick out of what she sees when she's there. Absolutely. And I'm sure she's like, my life is what it is, therefore I'm not going to be like trying to push in where I mean, I can completely see what you're saying, where she's just kind of like, if you're not going to ask me, I'm not going to go and vice versa. Yeah. You don't want your sister there. Yeah. It's very sisterly though, because that's just history. That's just like you anticipating her telling her what she thinks and feels and acting from there, which was what we were raised to do. Yeah. And next time we have a live show, we're going to make her come to matter where it is. Fucking Iceland, whatever. Oh, we're going to bring her on stage and then what please have a live show in wreck your neck, Iceland. A fuck yeah. In that fucking hot in sauna thing, the blue lagoon in the fucking from the blue lagoon live from the blue lagoon with our hair covered in mud. We fucking come up out of the water covered in mud. Just our eyes. This is going to be incredible and Lee, you get to, you get to come, you will be a guest on that show. Guest of honor. And then Janet is the second guest. Oh, Jesus. And of course. Oh Jim is going to close it out. I'm sweating now. We did go to Moose One Frank. Yeah. And says it remember. He doesn't? No, I totally remember. I feel like the background setting at Moose One Frank always looks exactly the same. So when I think of dinner there, I'm like, ooh, that could have been this one, this one or this one. Hold it. Cause I think we did sit in the same booth that we later sat with my mom and my stepdad in. So it's like fill in the blank. You've had a couple whiskies. You have a fucking gunfight in the morning. So you're not going to remember one or the other, you know, what do you get a gunfight in the morning? Right. Yeah. Home Jim really, he flourishes at Moose One Franks for some reason that really is the setting for him. And then I'm not the oldie here. Me. So cute. I love it. He's very good at faking it when he can't hear. I absolutely have still in that from him and just pretended like I can't hear people many times. It's my favorite. Love that guy. Love that gal. Kill Gareth's all around. What a team. What a group. What a group. And we can say the same about the hardstarks if Lee would just show up. We wouldn't know. We just don't know. All there is is lore. It's just lore. Just lore. Lee lore. I do still have the quill jewelry. I still have it. I still think it's gorgeous. I still think it's like such a good gift to get someone. Their favorite book turned into beautiful jewelry. Artsy Artsy Boutique is still in action on Etsy from Man to Lee. So definitely go check that out. I think, yeah, like what book would you want jewelry from? Like this is so meaningful. I love that. I guess the art of war and it would be like a crown. It would be the center jewel on a crown or motorcycle maintenance and the art of motorcycle maintenance and it's spray painted on the back of a jacket. That's yours. Those are our two items that we're going to get. Great. Great. Leather jackets are jewelry, right? Definitely. I did like the question, which is what's your favorite thing anyone's ever given us that people have made for us at a live show? What's yours? I mean, I will say this, when things really started getting really tury for us, when we would get into a dressing room and they would already be a gorgeously decorated dozen cupcakes or cakes or like we have come into dressing rooms where the murdering knows in that city. Yeah. But like made it this beautiful setting for us. I mean, things like that where people are like clearly have taken a lot of time and care. Yeah. Or the baseball bats from what's it called slugger baseball bats? That my dad has hanging in the foyer of his home. Wow. Up on the wall. Get in in the guest bathroom. No. My mother would fucking kill him. She would never, my sister walked in and goes, "Did you see what mom wasn't here to sit here back?" Oh my god. That's so sweet. I know. It's very sweet. I love that. Wow. So crazy. Thanks, Louisville. That like he did that is so sweet that he did it and your mom would hate it is like dabbling down. You know? Wow. He's kind of like, "I'm going to hang up what I like." Right. It was, it's Nora's soft traveling softball team photo and then that baseball bat about it. Okay. There's a theme at least. He's got a theme going. It's generally bad for a part. You're so right that like live show gifts are in a different level because we are surprised in the moment in front of that person or backstage or whatever in a way that like someone else getting in from the PO box showing us. Yes. The look in the eye or like call out in the audience of what someone made is so and then or them handing it to us is so fucking special and what about the time they brought you this stuffed animal of Elvis, but they weren't giving it to you. Yeah. I mean, also, it's funny too. The snapshots of like when we talk about live shows and we like, there's, there will be one thing and you just be like, "Oh, it's like it just happened." It's very strange because for me anyway, that being it's at the end of the day, it's at theaters that big doing so well. I mean, just killing kind of killing by definition of showing up on the stage and then afterwards getting to like, "Enjoy it and sit in it was just for me such a like stand up comedy dream come true." So then just any of the gifts onto it was all like cherries on top. I feel like it was such a gift in a weird way early on that I was drinking a lot before the live shows because I was really nervous. I'd never done anything like that before. You said, "I need you there with me," which like really hit me hard. And so like, aside from maybe like a shot once in a while before the show, like right before we go on, I haven't drank or you know, I haven't been drunk at all. I've been mostly totally sober on stage, which I never would have done on my own. And so I can remember every part of it, which is so like what a gift. That we gave me together because we did give it to you though because what I will give you full credit for is you asked the question before that show. Right. I think it was like one of the second or third ones we did. I think it was in the Bay Area. It was. And you said, "Is there anything you want to tell me?" And I feel like maybe you were thinking about it yourself and wanted me to confirm or something. Sure. But the fact that you fucking did it, like I basically was going to be like, "Hey, a word to the wise, you've got to get through this the way you can because this isn't easy." And this isn't like standard and. And you don't want to do it alone. It's such a like, "Yeah, I'm there with you, but everyone does when you're drunk, you're not with you and you're not there." Yeah, you're like standing five feet behind yourself, thinking you're right there. Right. And that, especially for when the audience, when we are engaged, they're right there with us. We're not connected. They have nothing to latch on to and that's when it's all like from the back. Yeah. No one wants to see a drunk girl doing her own thing, you know? We've seen it. Yeah. I don't want to see that. We've lived it. Yeah. No, it's great. And I fully commend you to do such a hard thing sober when that's, believe me, I'm fully on board with not doing things sober and like getting through things that are especially hard things, but that one, it was like, please trust me and come in mainline life performance with me. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Good. Great. Great. Fine. You win that one. We did it. I didn't. We did it. We asked. We received. We did. We opened up. This ability is hard. Yeah. And podcasting is hard. Podcasting is hard. Life shows are hard, but it's harder to not remember it or to feel like you don't know what happened and to have shame over that. I'd rather have shame over my sober performance than shame over not remembering my performance. And when have you ever felt shame about your sober performance because you kill it, you know how to do it. You've done it. Yeah. And even if I don't, it's, it came from me. It's okay. That's right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. All right. Should we get into our stories? Yes. Right now, we're going to get into Georgia's story about the death of nurse Cindy James. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast "Hollywood Land," I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Like how the story of Marilyn Monroe isn't just the story of a Hollywood icon. Marilyn Monroe has become so iconic that her death can only be explained through conspiracy theories. And for some fans who can't let go, these stories have metastasized from conjecture to accepted fact. So on August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died, then the rumors started, and she died again. And now, we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died. The third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession, and conspiracy collide. Just into Hollywood Land, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Who's first? Uh, yeah, it's you. Yes. Drinking. I love going first. Drink if you're first. Drink if you're wearing a house dress. Absifekin, you know what, I left my favorite house dress in a Cleveland. You did? How? I just left it on. There was a bath, and I left it near the bath. Oh. That sucks. I'm so sad. So this is my replacement. Okay. So this is, this is something I found or rediscovered, I should say, from one of the articles of like, I just found like the 10 weirdest unsolved mystery segments. Okay. Are you going into, are you doing the thing where now you're googling like bizarre, murder? Yes. Okay. There's a lot of good, there's not a lot of good YouTube videos, but there's a lot of YouTube videos of those like the top five, whatever, for some reason people use voiceover, like computer voices, computer voices, yes, but you can find a lot of interesting stuff there. And so this is one of them that I had forgotten about, but I know I saw when I was a kid. It's creepy as fuck. Here we go. Okay. On June 8th, 1989, sidebar, my ninth birthday, whatever. In the Vancouver, British Columbia suburb of Richmond, the body of 44-year-old nurse Cindy James was found in the yard of a band at a banded house. Oh, I forgot to say that this is about the death of Cindy James. Okay. Okay. Cindy had been drugged and strangled, and her hands and feet have been tied behind her back. Her feet have been tied behind her back. Well, if she's hog tied. Yeah. She wasn't. The police weren't sure if Cindy's death was an accident, or a murder, or if she had committed suicide. What? By tying her hands. Okay. Okay. Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. All right. Cindy, who, if she were to be played in a, you know, recreation of fucking unsolved disease story, yep, or would be played by Vanna White, oh, 1980s Vanna White. So just like ideal, everybody's 80s ideal blonde. Beautiful blonde, vivacious, bright woman. She's 19 year old nursing student when she meets at her, the hospital of Vancouver General Hospital. She meets Dr. Roy McPease, sounds fake, right? He's a psychiatrist, and he's 18 years older than her and married with two kids, but they fall in love. Oh. So 19 year old Cindy falls in love with him. And sorry, he's 28. How? 18 years older than her. Oh, 18 years. So it's 18 plus 19. I mean, 41. I'm truly the last person you should have asked that question, right, Steven? No. And it's that out. Oh, 41. Nobody here knows numbers. It's, it's 37. It's 37. 37. Okay. Go to college, kids. Oh, sorry. Can I quickly side? Always. There's somebody that tweeted and was like Karen, keep anytime Karen wants to name something boring. She calls them an accountant and it's like, it's like the third accountant we've heard from that's like, we're really not as boring as you say we are. And I feel really bad. I apologize to that person who tweeted and I just want to say, what's going to be the next one then? It has to be something else. I'll think about it. And it'll be something maybe Jokeer, more lighthearted and the one that'll hurt people's feelings less. But they'll still be mad at you. Whoever those people are. We're going to take true majors. They'll have an homage. That's boring. Okay. But they can't, contact me. What about candle makers? Correct. Good. Yes. That's a hobby. Okay. Fucking, it's tidal wave of candle, make your emails. I make good living. I make good living. Fuck you. Oh my God. Oh my God. I haven't sure. Okay. Okay. Here we are. Yes. They fall in love with each other. Within four days of Roy's divorce, he and Cindy are married. Four days. So 19 year old Cindy and 20, 37 year old Roy are married. Okay. So I'm 37. If I were boning a fucking 19 year old, you'd be like, what are you doing? Right? Yeah. That is too young. Too young. And also. But it's also the 80s. You know, you're just having a midlife crisis obviously. His wife and two kids are like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah. Okay. He's a doctor, you say? He's a psychiatrist. Okay. Okay. Okay. So they get married. Cindy graduates from nursing school. Later she becomes an administrator at a program for children with behavioral and emotional issues. She's like the best. So after 16 years of marriage, they didn't have kids. Cindy ends things with Dr. McPease. This seems to be amicable. That's in 1982. They split up. And that's when her life hits the fan. So four months into their trial separation, Cindy starts to receive anonymous phone calls from a man who knows her name, knows where she lives is like threatening her sometimes or just breathing into the phone sometimes. And it was really scary. The shit out of her. It's very scary. Yeah. After a week after the call start, someone smashes her window and breaks in, well, or breaks and smashes her window while she's out. And later that same week, an intruder somehow has a key to her house, gets into the house and stabs her pillow over a dozen times, which is like, shit, man. I just realized I think I saw the headline for the story and the like, getty image for the story because there was a knife on a pillow and it said this was like recently. And it was like, this is the most fucked up X story all over here. X story? Yeah. I don't know. What's X mean? X has been I was like, is that MK ultra I don't know, I was X stands for a word I don't want to say. I got it. I'm wrong. I'm wrong. Yes. No, you might be right. OK, but you're not. OK. But it could be. Got it. Is it? We don't know. We certainly don't know. We're not going to say right now. Is it? It might be an unsolved mystery. Oh, we don't know. Shit. Context. That has been like this came, this was like the fucking 80s. So like, you know, we're 90s from 90s. OK. 16 years away. They break up. Should hit the fan. Threatening stabs or pillow. OK. bizarre notes written in kidnapping font, AKA my favorite murder. That's a logo font. Yeah. Begin to appear on her doorstep and on her windshield of her car. One card has a picture of a woman who looks like Cindy, aka Vano White. The woman's eyes have been scratched out. And another time the woman's throat, like there's red ink around her throat. The police investigated but couldn't track anyone. And the phone calls she were getting were too short to be traced. So they can't figure out who's doing this. Maybe somebody who knows how tracing calls works, though. Ding dong. Great idea. Thank you. Other things happen, like her porch lights are smashed. Her phone lines get cut. All these things keep fucking happening. She freaks out. She decides to move. And on January 27th, 1982, the first physical attack occurs. Fuck. Cindy's good friend and neighbor, Agnes Woodcock. Leave it a laws for a dramatic effect. Pause for conversation throughout the office. Had a grief to spend the night so Cindy would feel safer. So Agnes gets to say-- Sorry, how old is Agnes? I mean, 72. You'd hope. That's a non-solution. Or is this going to become another Bonnie? Where we at? It's a non-solution inviting an Agnes over, isn't it? Yes. Come on. What is Agnes a fucking Navy SEAL? Then get her out of there. You don't need company if you feel threatened. Get someone that's threatening. I mean, maybe Agnes is a fucking bodybuilder. Perhaps. Let's see. I'll let you tell me. Let's not cast aspersions. OK, this ends with Agnes being a bodybuilder. No. No, it doesn't. That's the big reveal. That big reveal. OK, Agnes gets there around 9.30 at night. Cindy's not answering the door, so she goes around to go to the back. Oh, no. And she hears a moaning. And Agnes finds Cindy on the ground with a black nylon stocking tied around her neck. And there's some scratches on her body. And they also find later a needle mark on her arm. So Cindy tells authorities that she had been taking a load of boxes out to the garage, because she's moving and shit, and finds that the light was out. But in the dark, someone grabs her from behind. She felt a pin prick on her arms. And she thinks she must have been drug, because that's all she remembers from the incident. And the police are like, this is crazy. We're going to look into it. They look into her ex-husband, ex-- Right. --like stands for your ex. remember right he's got an alibi for the time of the attack and investigators aren't able to find any signs of any attacker at all and there are never any calls when the police are doing 24-hour surveillance there's never any attacks when that's happening they always happen when the police aren't around and again the calls are untraceable so the police are starting to doubt Cindy stories her parents thought the attacker clearly is smart enough to fucking not come the fuck around when there is surveillance yeah her friends and family try to convince her to move into actually like an apartment building where there's more people around maybe to get a vicious dog or something but she's like I'm not fucking letting this take over my life no and they also word because she would take she had a small dog that she loved and she would take the dog out for walks at like 3 a.m. I wouldn't stop doing that and they were like we're freaking out about it but they thought it was weird that she wouldn't stop doing that yeah you have to adjust a little bit if you are being threatened in some way right that whole thing of I'm gonna live my life exactly the way that's not yeah unfortunately but she doesn't move into a new house she paints her car and she changes her last name and that's how she becomes Cindy James so she also hired as a private investigator named Ozzy Caban Caban Ozzy Caban which is like the best private investigator name ever it's pretty Rozzy why like i.e. Osborne i.e. like Davis okay he says that she would be a vase of it times and was withholding information from him and police but he did believe everything she was saying he did think that she had a stalker and an attacker her mother thought that because she was being a vase of because she was threatened and feared for her family's life and that's why that was happening her private investigator installed the security lights around her house and gave her a two-way radio and a panic button just in case oh that's good yeah so one night Ozzy hears strange sounds coming from the radio and rushes to Cindy's house he finds Cindy lying unconscious in the hallway it's like break down the door she has a pairing knife through her hand and it's also like a note in it so like the pairing knife through her note in a hand you know what I'm saying yes like stuck through to the ground I don't know how deep I don't know what or like wherever she was though yeah she was lying unconscious and then they put a note in a pairing knife in her hand the note said you are dead bitch fuck all she remembered from that attack was that a needle it was put into her arm and also she seemed to remember that it was more than one person like there might have been two or three assailants oh at the time like a couple of the attacks no fingerprints are found there's no clues there's no leads aside from Cindy's injuries there's no evidence anyone else have been in the house so investigators are frustrated with Cindy and they are like this chick is fucking doing this on her own they think she is staging all of this so hoping they convince investigators to take her more seriously Cindy's like giving a fucking polygraph she fails a polygraph twice oh no the operator suggests the stress she was under might have affected the results and she's too embarrassed she's embarrassed so she wants the investigation to be shut down she refuses to sign her statement and she says it's because she's afraid her family then December 11th 1985 a cyclist finds Cindy lying in a ditch six miles from her home she's dazed and semi-conscious she's suffering from hypothermia has cuts and bruises all over her body and she again had a black nylon stocking around her neck fuck all she's wearing is a man's workboot and glove she doesn't remember anything that could help with the investigation man and then one night she has her friends Agnes our friend Agnes and her husband spend the night to keep her safe her husband's there all right but he's tiny he's so he's pocket sized little baby they they are all woken up in the middle of the night because the basement of the house is on fucking fire no yeah the phone line had been cut so Agnes has been fucking Mr Agnes fucking runs out and sees a man standing as a curb and yells to him to call the fire department but the man just runs off which is like but everyone says like the man just ran off and everything you listen to and then it's like maybe he ran to fucking call 911 oh that's true you know what I mean yeah he doesn't he's like okay yeah I'm doing what you told me to do yeah I'm gonna run off yeah maybe he ran off and call 911 maybe we don't know maybe he didn't maybe he started the fire maybe he didn't maybe he was scared of yelling I mean he just ran like he's walking his dog in the middle of the night we don't know police determine that the fire was started from inside the house because they saw no fingerprints on the window they think the per the perp would have used that window to get in there's no fingerprints it's fucking Jean-Banale over again they determine that Cindy must have staged the incident and there was also another fire that happened another time that they think she staged letters and phone calls continue Cindy's like fucking no one will believe me that I'm being stalked and threatened and attacked she's freaking out about it in June 1985 she tells she's like going crazy she tells her physician that she wants to die so she's diagnosed with severe depression and committed to the psych ward at the hospital in North Vancouver wow yeah so while she's there she's examined by psychiatrist who says that Cindy's he determined Cindy's troubles are quote self initiated he said she'd fallen into a quote a psychogenic fugue an altered consciousness stemming from a deep-seated trauma and that she wasn't even aware that she was behind everything mm-hmm so she's there for 10 weeks and then is released okay what do you think so far I don't like that okay it frustrates me here's a thing and this is this is clearly just off the top of my head but you don't cut your own phone line you don't stab your own hand yeah like people there are people who do things like this all the time and they do it in a way like the idea that you would be going past the point of normal like I'm trying to swindle people but like I think personally psychopaths or people that try to manipulate a bunch of people at once by like oh my life isn't terror will not harm themselves to do that or will like not you know what I mean okay but that was I get they they harm their children 1000 yeah but that's not them that's an extension of them you mean there is a munch house in their hand does not get stabbed yeah well also munch houses would be that would be an additional kind of issue but this is that thing of like if they're trying to say like because what would the point of that be getting the attention of the police like she wants police attention I don't know or emergency attention or something what would the point of strangling yourself with a nylon B and wake up in the ditch with hypothermia like what is she getting what would the benefit be yeah is my that's a good question I'm couldn't be furring my brow further in total confusion and what the fuck okay let's keep going cuz it's fucking weirder oh um boop boop up don't know okay hold on okay she gets out after 10 weeks then on October 26 26 1988 she's attacked for the fifth time and RCMP officer mounted police Royal Canadian mounted police officer discovered her unconscious in her car nude from the waist down her hands are tied behind her back and she's squeezing the panic button over silent alarm there's duct tape over her mouth there's bruising and swelling over one of her eyes and she has a black nylon stocking tied around her neck again she's dressed to the hospital and but no one else's fingerprints are at the scene there's they bring in a fucking police dog there's no scent to pick up at all there's no indication that anyone else was present okay she finally tells police that her tormentor is her ex-husband Roy make peace they encourage her they want her to phone him and confront him and take the conversation he recognizes any involvement during the conversation and in fact he had he gave the police a recording from his own answering machine that contained a death threat do you want to hear it yeah wait okay yes do you want to yes okay mm-hmm what now I do okay no hello everyone who's podcast is that oh shout out to the trail and cold with a wrong and word sorry so that what the fuck and so everyone I mean reddit loves this fucking story like it sounds like a woman read about it before yeah it does sound like a woman it does so Roy thinks that Cindy has multiple personalities and isn't even aware that she's doing these things to himself but he's like I but I'm not behind this okay and they tend to believe him mm-hmm the psychiatrist yeah Hold on. Incoming. Here's Roy. And then a train comes by. OK. So she had been given those two lie detector tests and had been showing deceit in them. But she's given a third one. And when she's asked if she staged one of the attacks, she says no, and she's judged to be truthful. So there's like a little bit of both going on. So after almost seven years, after the harassment started, Cindy is now 44, goes missing on May 25. Shit. Her car is discovered in the parking lot of a small shopping mall where she have gone that day to deposit her check and to do some grocery shopping. In fact, her groceries are found in the car. There's blood on the driver's side door of the car, and items from her wallet are found under the car. So this is after nearly 100 well-documented cases of harassment, including threatening phone calls, and notes, vandalism, and arson, three dead cats were found in her yard. Oh, I know. Sorry, Steven. And me. And five violent physical attacks between 1982 and 1989. Cindy's body is found dead. Two weeks after her car had been found, Cindy was found-- her body is found by a construction worker in the yard in an abandoned house. A mile and a half from where her car had been parked. There's a fucking photo of it online. It's an oscarous one, but she said, just horrible. Yeah. A black nylon stocking was tied tightly around her neck, and the autopsy showed that Cindy died from an overdose of morphine and other drugs. There was a needle mark in her arm, but they had been taken orally. Yeah. So the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, they believe that her death was an accident or suicide. They think she was responsible for her own death. OK. So there's a fucking crazy corner's inquest, because they're like, did she? Was she killed by her stalker finally after six and a half years? Or did she do this for herself? It becomes the lengthiest and most expensive public inquests in British Columbia's history. Wow. 84 witnesses are called a testify. There's a not specialist who comes and is like-- so her arms were tied behind her back. And the not specialist shows how she could have tied up her legs, then tied up her arms in front of her, and stepped through to tie them up behind her back within three minutes. She could have done that. Also that-- so she had an overdose of morphine, but so people are like, how could she have done those things after taking morphine, but she had taken them orally, which meant she would have had like 15 to 60 minutes before that kicked in to tie herself up, and to walk to that spot, a mile and a half from her car. So it was still possible she could have done it, and maybe put the needle mark in her arm as a red herring. Yes, that's the word, thank you. But also they didn't find a needle or a vial or anything near her body or near her car. And sorry, the idea is she ties herself up and then takes a mile and a half walks. She takes a mile and a half walk or whatever gets to this place somehow, and then does the tying. Then does the tying, maybe takes the morphine then, and then dies. OK. So da, da, da, da. But also the weird thing too is that the place where her body is found in the abandoned yard is really close to this treat. You can see in an old video, like an old interview with Ozzy, her fucking police dude. It's close to the street almost like someone should have smelled it or saw her and nobody did. So that was where Ozzy, who still believed her, was like, that must mean that she had been dumped later close at the time when she was found. Yeah, because somebody would have watched her walk in or seen her around or smelled a body or seen her body lying. Oh, because of the leaves there. Yeah, got it. So maybe. So, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now, well, OK, after three months of this coroner's inquest, the jury couldn't decide and called her death due to a quote, unknown event. Whoa. And the death is classified as undetermined and still is. So, of course, there's a shits on the theories on the case and on Reddit, especially no one agrees. I'm like, did you-- OK, did you have a mental illness? Just associated with identity disorders, one of the things, among chausans, schizophrenia, some people are like, maybe it started with an actual stalker and no one believed her. And so she kind of escalated it to make people believe her and accidentally did these things to herself. And then they look into every single time she was found bound, it was near a place where she would have been found quickly or she had the panic button in her hand. So she would have never been left long enough. She knew that Agnes was coming at 9.30 at night. She knew that she had the walkie-talkie with Ozzy. And so he heard weird sounds and came over. She put her own body. She expected to be found that last time when she died, because she was near a walkway. Oh, it just that no one actually found. No one actually found. I mean, it's like, this is one of those cases where there's so many reasons behind both of the answers, either she did it herself or there was an actual murderer and stalker. And you know, even when I was writing this and everyone has their own fucking opinion, even when I was writing this, I found myself leaving shit out because I thought she did it to herself. So I found myself leaving stuff out that didn't support it. And I made myself put it back in because it's not fair. Yeah. So it's really easy to do. Sure. Well, and also you just want to make sense of it. Yeah. And also to me, I'm like, obviously this, but it's not obvious. Also, I feel like she would have had and maybe no one's talking about this part because it would be so disrespectful of the dead. Did she have any signs of any mental illness before this stalking thing started? Because if not, if she was just regular pants and going about her day and handling things, then that idea, it is so easy to call somebody crazy and be like, oh, this is a thing. Oh, I can write this off because it's something, she's just doing it to herself. Which is like, what, like what for? Well, that's a great question. And what's frustrating too about this case, which probably makes it so interesting too, is that you really only have these facts of her stalk, of what happened to her after her divorce. So we don't know. I couldn't find anything about her before she met her husband. Right. So it's hard to tell the psychiatrist that she went to and she got committed, said that there was, it's from past trauma. So who the fuck knows what that means? And she had this, you know, like everyone's saying that she had this traumatic life event with her divorce. But they, by all accounts, they had an amicable separation. So it doesn't seem like it was totally traumatic. Right. Well, and also one of the things that that psychiatrist said, it sounded like was something along lines of multiple possible, multiple personality, which they've proven isn't a real thing, right? So there's those things where like 19, there's a lot of like 1980s old school shit terms. I just think cutting your phone line is such a dramatic way to turn your phone line. Just like, just you, it fucks things up. It's, you don't just get your phone turned back on. Yeah. Like that's kind of, you won't have a landline in the 80s for like two weeks until they come and fix it. Well, maybe she fucking likes that 'cause then she can get these calls anymore. I mean, like, I don't know, I, but that's, yeah, that's dramatic and people have to come to your aid and it is a big deal and so, but it also isn't harming you. So it's this like, someone cut my phone lines, seems like a big deal. So sending it like, I guess nowadays it would be someone stole my phone, right or whatever. Yeah. So all these things are, these things that are, and I don't know which one it is. And I can't say so. I can see the point of why it's, why she would do this things to herself for attention. It makes sense to me. Yeah, it just, it doesn't. The attention part doesn't make sense. Although I'm not denying that's a thing people get. Yeah. Where it's almost like, then the ambulance came and it was so exciting or whatever. But yeah, it just seems like. Well, to me, it's so much more likely a woman, especially a woman if she looked like something like Vanna White in the 80s or 90s, had a stalker and a person who was trying to make her go crazy and torture her. But how, how did they find no trace of him for six and a half years? Well, to me, it sounds like, I mean, clearly out. That the cops discounted her really early and so didn't bother looking for shit. Also, could have been that. Could have been that the stalker was a cop and knew all the inside shit. Well, we got some shit then to talk about. Aw, shit, y'all. All right. Because also that thing where you, when you said the thing about the dog's not getting a scent, but they have to know what they're smelling for to do it in the first place. So yeah, if it's only her smell, they need a sock from the person they suspect. So like, you, I don't, they don't just find a scent and run to a person. No, that makes, that's very true. I only know that from our friend and someone knows something. I know all about those. You should be a dog. A real Canadian mountain. Oh, I will. Okay. So let's talk about a couple suspects. All right. Constable Pat McBride was the first investigator to look into Cindy's claims way back in 1982. He ended up getting involved with her romantically, pretty quickly and moved in with her for a brief period. Their relationship ended when he asked her to marry him and she said, no. - Oh, okay. - So he was a fucking cop and spurned. But he was only police who believed and supported her that she had a stalker. But it's like, of course you're like, no, yeah, I totally believe it, you know? - Yes, that's the perfect hiding place. - Right, so maybe to his friends, he was like, she's fucking crazy. - She's a nut, yeah. And so he was looked into as a suspect and cleared four years after Cindy's death, Pat pleaded guilty to two incidents of sexually assaulting women and he had been under psychiatric care since 1984 because of a personality disorder. - Okay. - Which is like, I mean, who isn't? (laughing) - You would hope not all police, right, people, and people that are supposed to uphold the law. - Right, Jesus ate. - So he was looked into and cleared, but that's some shit to consider. - That's a real swamp, yeah. - Also, okay, here's, okay, here's the fun part. This isn't fun. - Here's the part. - Well, when Cindy was under hypnosis at one point to try to remember who had attacked her in more details, she had a memory of being on a trip with her ex-husband, Dr. MacPiece, shortly before their divorce. They were with a doctor named James Tyhurst and she said she witnessed them doing something sinister, including cutting up bodies, like had killed people and were cutting up bodies. She remembered that during hypnosis. So it turns out, this fucking dude, Dr. James Tyhurst, will come up, Tyhurst, he had been sexually abusing his, some of his female patients, and he was arrested just four months after Cindy's death. And in 1991, he was convicted on five counts of sexual and indecent assault and ended up paying one of his victims half a million dollars in damages. He was, he was one of those psychiatrists that would do that thing where he would make them sign a fucking master and slave thing to be like, you have daddy issues here to, here's how to get past them, like you need to let me take over your life. And then some occasions, he would like have them take their shirt off and whip them. He was like a fucking psychopath and he was a psychiatrist. And basically leading these women to believe he was healing that part of their process. Yeah, dark. So, here we go, conspiracy theory time because I just finished fucking warm wood on Netflix. Highly recommend everyone watches all the way through. It's so good. It's so good. OK, so I totally believe this part. Dr. Tyherst worked with the CIA in the 1950s. Uh-huh. In experiments involving brainwashing, including he worked on a project called Project Artichoke, which turned into. M-K-O-T-E-Z-S. M-K-O-T started as Project Artichoke. So for everyone who doesn't know, the project studied hypnosis, forced morphine addiction. She died from a fucking morphine overdose, right? Did I say morphine? Yes, you did. And they also studied the subsequent forced withdrawal of morphine and the use of chemicals, including LSD, to produce amnesia and other vulnerable states and subjects. Fucking A. Go watch forum wood if you think that that's bullshit. Right, fucking now. We're just going to fight you. I will fight you. I just want to be in the meeting where people are like, "Look, we're doing some pretty great sinister shit, "we're dosing everyone with acid, "we're making people pretend to commit suicide, "we cannot call ourselves Project Artichoke anymore. "It doesn't suit us. "It doesn't suit the project." But one guy goes, "What about the layers you peel "one artichoke like leaf off?" And they're like, "Stanley, you've had your time at the table." Now we're talking about the future. M-K-O-T or a bust. And they're like, "That sounds creepy." All I want is for future fucking Trichran podcasts to have a cool name and not laugh at Project Artichoke. That's right. M-K-O-T or I-B-S. But now, so. I want a Project Artichoke. That's our new fucking business venture. Project also happens to be Elvis' favorite food. Artichokes, it's a fucking full circle. So did she witness her husband and they broke up pretty quickly after and fucked Dr. Tyburn, fucking doing some sinister shit. And Dr. Tyburn is like, "Well, I'm going to fucking mind control the shit out of her "for six and a half years so she doesn't, "no one believes what she's saying." And we make her seem like a totally crazy woman that would do this thing voluntarily to get attention, therefore she has no credibility with her family, with her friends. Do we call it fucking Constable Pat McBride and give him $10,000 to be in on it? This goes all the way to the middle. They are the choke. Oh, no. Dip this shit in garlic butter and put it to fucking bed. God. So either way, if she was doing it herself, which I believe 60%, she didn't know she was doing it. It's horrible and sad. So you think it was a puppet master situation where she wasn't doing it because of a psychotic break or some kind of thing. It was because of that. No, I think she had some severe mental illness that dissociated, I don't know what, I don't know what. And listen, everyone knows I'm not fucking saying that people who have mental illness are fucking crazy 'cause I have, I have my, I have my welcome. Welcome to my life. But it does seem like there's a lot of, a lot of, everything that happened can be reasoned that she was doing these things to herself and didn't know about it. And if that's true, how sad is it that she had to live through that of her own mental or a sign? If it's fucking not true and there was someone doing these things to her and no one believed her and thought she was crazy, how fucking sad is that? Every direction. It's an insane case and I don't think we'll ever know because you know, there's just not, there's not enough. Especially if you start to link it to the CIA or MKALT or something that you can, these days it feels more and more like, oh yeah, that's possible. Oh yeah, some deep, some terribly shut. Well they did this shit, man, like they really did. They really did it. Have I mentioned Wormwood? Do I have to say it again? How many times? But it's funny 'cause I've heard this story about her and you really, not you personally, this story gets told really with this thing of like, here's this horrible thing, but also isn't even, isn't even crazier if she was doing it to herself. So you almost get served this worst case scenario, you know what I mean? Like it's a more interesting story if she was doing it to herself or it's twist. It's, I think what's so interesting about it is that nobody knows and it feels awful either way. Either place you land on it, it feels awful because she's still, you know, she's still was tormented. And no matter what, I'm just saying, you don't cut your own phone line. Okay, I'm just saying no one cuts a land line. First of all, how do you even fucking do it? I love the thing that you have fucking a problem with. It's the only thing that I have in this life. It's, but it's so like for people who have never had land lines or didn't rely on them, you don't know how serious you are about this. It's kind of like how, I don't know if it's still this way, but like, I mean, I don't know if it's like a known thing or whatever, but it's like you just couldn't get anybody to get anything taken care of in a short amount of time. Yeah. The whole thing of like the windows between Tuesday and Friday and they'll come whenever they feel like that. I don't know, for something like a phone, I just don't see it happening. Also, the other day I was sitting at home and all of a sudden my power went out. And of course the first thing I think is I didn't think everyone thinks that and, but then it came back on and then it went off again. And it was like three o'clock in the afternoon or just laying there watching TV. I was like scared like white hot scared 'cause I'm like someone's outside turning my power off. Oh my God. And yet the bomb dropped finally. Yeah. I took it more of a one on one. I was gonna have to like get into a knife fight with somebody but it just shows what the things were scared about. And they're always with us. And they're always there and Xanax doesn't help. Well, you, it'll still happen. You just don't register anything. Well, there's so many nuances to this case too. And I urge people to go to fucking Reddit and unexplain message boards and just look, look up everyone's series because it's so interesting. Yeah, everyone has these theories and then they, and every comment is fucking, yeah, but, you know, and they're all right. It's just, yeah, it seems like it could truly be, it could go any direction. Like people answered the phone when they were at her house with her standing there and no one was on the line. Yeah, but no one ever answered the phone and there was someone talking on the line. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, that kind of thing. Also, I really fucking hated that phone call. Oh, somebody's standing there, that's why I play that. Somebody's standing there trying to be threatening. It's like, it's not the voice or it's the idea that a person is on the other line thinking to do that to someone. Who's trying to scare the shit out of you? Yeah, it's just so fucking weird. Soon phones won't exist. That's the dream. Talking to anyone won't exist. Just let's, it'll all be podcast. Text. Text me like two emojis, get it, get the idea across. If you want to tell me anything, make a podcast. Podcast about it. Send me the podcast. If it doesn't get, if it gets under top 10 and I tunes, I'll listen to what you have to say. Nice. Yeah, that's getting lost. What time? You wanna know what time? What time? Make a podcast about it. Don't mean a podcast. So that's the story of Cindy James and her death. Well, that's fascinating. I definitely have heard of it before, but I didn't know her by now. Okay. We're back. Are there updates for this? No updates. And I did some digging and it's just everyone is still debating the, quote, evidence. But in September 2021, the podcast called Death by an Unknown Event was released covering this case. And it was narrated by actress Pamela Adlon, of course, who's so great. She's, you know, in the show, better things in Greece too. And there's also a book about it that I haven't read. It's called Who Killed Cindy James by Ian Mulgrew. And I don't know what side it takes, but I'm very interested in reading a whole book about it because this case is just such a head scratcher. And so fucking tragic. Yeah. Let's get into Karen's story about the tragedy of the next day family murders. I'm Jake Brennan. And on my podcast, Hollywood Land, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. So on August 4, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died. The third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession and conspiracy collide. Listen to Hollywood Land on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. This season we've got some awesome guests ready to dole out advice, guests like Tiffany Haddish. I like Bumble. Also girl farmers only die kind. Like a state sales, funerals, options are usually good. There's a lot of good men near grocery stores near gyms. Darcy Cardin. Remember being like, I know this is good advice, but like I really don't want to do that. So you didn't take her advice. Are you still friends with that woman? No. She actually was kind of toxic. Neil to Grass Tyson. I spent my whole life looking up. I was a geek kid. I had a telescope at age 12. And so. So you didn't have sex for a long time. Terry O'Terry. Were you a soap opera person? Young and restless. Okay. Well, first of all, you should know it's the young and the restless. I can't even believe you're mispronouncing the title. Some of us abbreviated because we've been so way too many years. T.S. Madison. Are you into Polly? No. No, I don't think so. I could have told you. No, I'm not. Okay. It's a Polly just based on what she's wearing and the way her hair is style. She was not in the Polly. On a Ferris, Dave Franco, Madeline Klein, Hannah Gatsby, Adam Scott, Wanda Sykes, and more. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Chelsea Hamler from Dear Chelsea. Every week the news gets worse. And Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Sweeney was? If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men do better or do less. So I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamanika and I'm out. Listen to You're the problem with Yamanika starting on July 15 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. But it's funny because the way you said that and unsolved mystery style, right? It was unsolved mysteries. My murder today is also one that I was like, hey, whatever happened to that story. Love it. Did one of those. Yeah. And also I did, and this I understand I've been leaning on a lot lately, but who fucking cares? The way I'm trying to find stories is to go on iTunes and then just look under true crime and see what they have. Like what? Because the ID channel at this point now, they have every water feature style murder. It's like swamp murders and cool murders and fucking a shallow puddle. And somehow they're able to turn it into a half an hour show when it's really like, that has been killed her. Right. But it's, but because it in essence, it's so fascinating that you don't, you don't need much. So I can't keep up with a lot of those ones. But there's a really good one water feature. Take a minute for the water. It comes up in the story. That's why it was on the top of my head. But James Patterson has a new like a reenactment crime series that I found like I think I stumbled upon. I highly recommend it. He's at the top. He does this goofy introduction. You know, James Patterson is the novelist and he like, he has his own commercials will be like my new vocal drive. You're crazy. He looks like someone's grandpa. So I started watching this because I'm like, I bet this is going to be real cheesy. It is so wonderfully produced and acted and really well written and they're true, they're true crimes. They're like, it's not fictional. Is it called waterfall murders? It's called what water feature? It's called who didn't turn off the hose. Drinking at my dad murdered everybody in the house because you left the hose on her name. Drinking poison out of the hose. Hot water out of a green garden hose. Wait, what's the what's the show call? James Patterson, Colin, Steven's going to tell us in a minute. Out of the corner of my eye, I see him. I love that you did. I love that you tried to avoid it. I was like, wait, Karen, tell us. I didn't help you. I just put it into my t-vo though. So I thought if I started to say James Patterson, the rest would come out. It doesn't do that in real life. No, we don't have t-vos in our brains yet. It doesn't. I'll read it. It's called murder is forever. Yeah, and that's really true. I mean, how many times have we told you guys? But now that James Patterson's saying it, he's right. So he's good, but there was another one I found, and this is what got me to this story. So also we know people in my magazine right there and always has been with the true crime. Four front. That's the four front. It has been all over John Bonne's death since it happened. That's what they did it. That's what they do. And now they're devoted and they have a dedicated team. So this is the mixed day family murder. You're doing it. I'm doing it. I love it. Mixed days. It makes me so crazy because when I saw this was one of the choices when I was looking at all the choices for the people magazine investigates. It was that thing where I went, oh, I remember that. I remember that happening. I remember it being breaking news here in L.A. I remember them talking about this family of four went missing. And then the follow-up reports in like the following same month or so, they all led and told this weird story where I started to go, oh, they probably brought it on themselves. Oh, they probably, oh, they're escaping. They did this, they did this, they did this. They did it to themselves or they're running away because they're the criminals. Right. Really that narrative got into like the media pretty strongly. Yeah. And then it made me go, oh, well, then they probably just ran away and they're tax evaders or some weird thing. And then I just never heard anything else about it. So when I saw come up as that choice, I was like, I bet you that ended way different than I remember. And I need to know what the whole story is. Oh, this one hurts. It's bad. And it's Southern California, of course. So it's Falkirk, California, which is 100 miles north of San Diego. So it's that weird space between 100 miles north. Yeah. So you know, like as you go down towards San Diego and there's like Temecula, whatever, it's right. I think it's right south of Temecula. From what I remember, I looked at the map a couple times. But it's basically kind of just I know I can read maps. Google maps. Okay. So Joey and Summer Mistay are happily married couple. He, he designs custom made water features. Oh, my God. That's why that was in my head. Um, fucking circle, full circle. So basically it's like these really high end is it's kind of an amazing business. And you know people like that that are like their artists, but then they applied their art to actually make something functional that people need. So it's like water fountains and water features that were all like waterfalls in the pool that go under the pool. Exactly. Just fucking you just need more shit in your house. Very high end business. And reminds me of something that would be like now an HGTV show. Totally. The Mistay family. Water features. They bring in, they're the specialists that the like those weird Las Vegas rent brothers bring in the property brothers. The rent brother. They're rental brother. They're a little bit more low down than the property brothers. Property brothers are about buying. The property brothers are like we're not going to fucking Las Vegas. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The rent brothers are like yeah. If you have a part-time job and you love beer, wear your guys. Yeah. Okay. Las Vegas is where to go. So okay. So, uh, so that's what Joey does for living. It's really fancy, great business. He started himself and that just is doing better and better. And so they just bought this really nice house in Fallbrook. And summer is a full-time real estate agent. So they're doing very well. well. And they have two young sons, a five-year-old, and a three-year-old. So they, on February, I believe it's around like February 8 or 10th. Joey is what everyone calls him. Joey McStay's father Patrick notices that he's not answering his calls. Every time he calls Joey, he gets, it goes straight to the mailboxes full. He cannot get a hold of him. And he finally calls his other son Michael and says, "Will you go check on Joey in the house because he's not answering like what's going on?" And then they start getting calls, complaints of people that are looking for their water features or their orders or say, "Want a question," or whatever, and no one's answering. So, and Joey was a really astute businessman. So they knew once they started hearing complaints through emails that like calls weren't being returned, that's when they really started getting worried that something was going on, because it's just not like him. And actually, the webmaster for Joey's company was the one that called and said, "I got all these emails, it's like I can't get a hold of them." So then the whole family kind of gets together. And Michael, Joey's brother, and then Joey's business partner, who is the guy that took the designs and actually made the water features. His name is Chase Merritt. He's like the construction did. Yeah. He's like, you designed it on the paper, and I take all the tubes twisted around, make a water feature. We shove it out. Boom, we've all made $10,000. They go over to the mixtape's new house, and they're looking around. They see that the family that Joey's truck isn't in the driveway, but that the family car is gone. The family car is in the Zuzu trooper, and it's not there. They look over the back fence. The dogs are out in the backyard. They haven't been fed. They're going crazy that people are actually there, and then Michael finds an open window, and he goes into the mixtape's house, and they look around, and there's no blood anywhere. There's nothing amiss. There doesn't look like there's been a struggle, but it looks like people were just there five minutes ago. There's two little bowls of popcorn on the couch that are just sitting on the couch. There's glasses on the counter, reading glasses, sitting on the counter. There's open cans of paint from a room that they were repaint. No one leaves a can of paint open. Not even if they were going to run to the corner. It's like, what if the dogs get in, dead, dead, dead. Or the kids. I'm so anal retentive about that shit. There's no fucking wayers leaving us, but I don't have dogs or kids. And they said, later on, they say that they're the kind of people that they brought their dogs everywhere, so they wouldn't. The idea that the dogs were out in the yard, not fed, was really upsetting to them that they knew something was terribly wrong. On February 15, the family reports the entire family missing to the San Diego Sheriff's Department. Because they try to contact them in every way, they look everywhere, and they're like, no, this is like, we need the police to start investigating this. So the police narrow it down to the last, anybody heard from them. And the last traceable phone activity was on February 4th of 2010. And February 15th is when they got all the cops. So they, yeah, they basically was like, oh, they're so busy. They're just not getting back to us. And then it got to the point where it's like, somebody's got to look into this. So I think and also February 15th was like, may have been the official day that it started. So they could have been talking in the cops the second after they went into the house and it looked like everyone had just walked out of the bridge, which is such a creepy feeling. But anyway, so they see that they that on February 4th at 828 p.m., a cell phone tower pinged Joseph's phone. He made a call to employ an employee in Rancho Cucamaga to talk about work. And then they find out that a neighbor, their neighbor had a surveillance camera that caught the edge of the mixtape's driveway. And so they have video footage of the mixtape's Isuzu trooper backing out of the driveway at 747 p.m. on the night of February 4th. I forgot about that part. Yeah, but you can't see. So all you can see are the wheels going down the driveway. You don't even see where the windows are on the car. It doesn't go up high enough. So you can't see who's in the car. But you just see that the trooper is leaving the house. And then on February 8th, they find the family's 1996 Isuzu trooper. It had been towed from a parking lot near Sanucidro. And the security guards later tell investigators it may have been parked there sometime between 530 and 530 p.m. and 7 p.m. And so then they start looking it's basically a parking lot that's right next to the border. So then they start watching video footage because they're like, well, what if the family just went into Mexico and something happened? Because that's basically what the car being driven there tells them that. So then they find this. What year is this again? I'm sorry. This was in 2010. Okay. So, um, so, and I know that for a fact. I should have questioned you. I guarantee it. I wrote the year down on every single one of these lines. No. So, um, so they start looking at video footage and they think they have found around 8 o'clock on that night. They think they found it's like surveillance footage of people walking into Mexico from the California side into Mexico. And it's a family of four and it's a guy and a girl and then two little children. I have watched, I back then watched that video over and over and paused it and started it and paused it. And it's just shadows. It's shadows. You can't tell what it is. And it's walking away. So you don't see their faces. But it looks like a husband and a wife and two little boys. And it actually is probably. It could be. I mean, like they were saying something where it's like both of the little boys had these hats on like beanies and which is what those little boys did wear all the time. What are they calling them and not that uh, tukes. Tukes in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. We're like not in California. Yeah. Beanies here. But yeah, or you know, some just kind of a little hat. Yeah. But the thing is lots of little kids wear them. So it's it's that thing where it's like. But what are the chances of that same night at that same time? And this happened. They look, you know, it's far away, but it's like she's skinny. It's all they they fit the body types all of it. They do. So then the police find on um, summer's computer in looking into like from Jan, the beginning of January searches on do you need uphazards to take children across the border into Mexico? And different questions like that about taking kids there. So then they were like, okay, maybe this they've been planning some kind of escape. And that's where this part of the narrative comes in. Yeah. Um, and then the father says in the people magazine investigates the father talks about how um, Joey has he was doing so well in business and stuff. He ended up buying land in Belize because he had this retirement plan. He loves surfing and he loved it. The water. And so he had this land. He was going to build like a house on in Belize for when they were done. And they just wanted to go down and, you know, live the easy life. Well, he yeah. And he looked like the Margarita. Oh, dude. Yes. He's very Sammy Hagar. He's like a he's like a young Sammy Hagar. She's just like beautiful. Like looks like she hang out the beach all the time. Totally. She's like share hair. Yeah. They're both like surfies chill out looking the kids are like sweet. So those little boys look like the cutest kids. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a very beautiful, very Southern California family. So Southern California. Yeah. Just kind of like we've and successful. Yeah. Doing well because they've worked hard. Yeah. Yeah. So then this idea that then seeding this concept in that they somehow were on the run or they're trying to get away from something or whatever. Then they start theorizing, okay, was the cartel involved in this water feature company where if they were exporting that somehow they got they ran into like the wrong element exporting these water features into Mexico or internationally or something where they're just trying to theorize of like why would you run with your whole family or why would you cross over into Tijuana and just disappear? Like what could be happening? Yeah. It's like I get it. It makes sense that that's one of the things you think about. Sure. Well, and I also think that sometimes those people come up with those theories because they're trying to think how can this family still be alive? Right. Because the underlying creepiness is you don't you want to go there's got to be some other thing that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. On May 13th of 2010. So this is like, you know, February, March, April, three months later. They send investigators down to El Rosario, Mexico because so a waiter sees little kid sees the birthmark and reports it that he think this is this is the kid because now their pictures are everywhere. And it's and it's missing family. Yeah. There's no homicide element in obviously in the beginning of this family. So it's these and also it seems like when those pictures of like have you seen this family there it immediately puts them in that they could be criminals. Yeah. Or there's something questionable about like, you know, there's a whole family disappear. unless they're giving it on their own. - Unless they're, it's not like a husband and wife or one or the other. - Changing their identity or whatever it's like, yeah, they obviously. - You don't usually run away with a three-year-old and a five-year-old. - Right. So a bunch of, they sent seven investigators down to look into this, but nothing came of that. And then the brother, Michael, starts the find the McFae, McStay family website. And it gets a bunch of attention and they actually did a, they featured the story on America's most wanted, just saying this family is disappeared and nobody knows what's happening. The problem is that the family finds that in their personal bank accounts, they have $100,000. So they're like, why would you escape and leave behind a bunch of money? - And it's not touched. - Right. - It's just sitting in their bank account. - I remember that amount being like, like if they left $10,000 and didn't touch it, it'd be like, they're, you know. - Okay, like, if you're trying to make it seem like you didn't run away, but you left that. - $100,000, $1,000. - Why wouldn't you bring that if you're on the run? - Right. - Whenever coming back. - Yeah. - That doesn't make sense. - That's so much money. - Then they also find that Summer had in her email, the family starts going through the email, their personal email and finds that her abusive ex was a guy named Victor Hanson. She hadn't spoken to him in five years and actually she was like the bad, that was the bad relationship she was coming out of when she met Joey and they were like, and he like turned her life around and it was suddenly like, I believe in love again, type of thing. So they find an email from that guy. They hadn't spoken in five years and the email was, they didn't like the tone of it or the sound of it. So suddenly they're like, where's this guy? - Yeah. - So they start looking into Victor Hanson and it turned out, in the time that they had broken up, he'd been arrested twice. Once was for threatening to kill his neighbors and claiming that he was a marine who was trained in like killing people and so like, I'm coming for you. He was arrested for that. Then the other time and more recently, he was arrested because he was refused to leave a bar that Joey's store was, it was next to Joey's store. - What? - And so they were like, and then they find out that Victor Hanson lives in an apartment two miles away from Joey in summer's old apartment. - Oh, shit. - So they're like, oh, this guy's in the mix and nobody knew it. - For sure. - Understood it. But then Vic knows that he's going to be suspect and so he calls the police preemptively and says, I understand they're missing. I just want to let you know. This is where I was. Like here's all the people that can prove it and it all proves out. So he has an alibi that seems to be solid. By August of 2010, the beginning of August of 2010, the family just starts taking all the mixed-day stuff out of their house. And then they see that, so Joey's company was called Earth Inspired Products that was the custom made water features. They see that the company is for sale for a million dollars and the CEO listed is Dan Kavanaugh, the webmaster. - Shut the fuck up. - Who had set up the email when the company first started. I'm not sorry, the website. - Not the email. - I'm sold. So basically, in this in people, magazine investigations, they say that Dan Kavanaugh believed that he was one of the main reasons that this water future company got so successful because he made sure that any time you searched custom water features or any, he was like one of those early Google manipulators. So that Earth Inspired Products Inc. would come up first when you were searching for that. And because of that, they got all this business and he felt like he never got his fair share. And they found old IMs of Joey and Dan, like fighting and Dan saying, you owe me money. And so Joey ended up buying him a BMW. Just like as a thank you for all your service and I'm doing well and you know, you helped me. So-- - Steven, don't get an idea. - Steven, the BMWs are too fast for you. - You got caught. - It's not in yes. And also they tracked that he kept coming to Joe, this webmaster kept coming to Joey and being like lend me 50 bucks, lend me 100 bucks, lend me 200 bucks. So that, you know, they were like really starting to look at that guy and then he was like, I was on a surfing trip. What, when that family just like look it up. - Can you please story? - Well, they, you know, it was the truth. But I think it's insane that he tried to fucking sell that company with himself as the CEO. Like, sure. - Dude, what an idiot. - What are you doing? - Red fly. - And also the case is still open. Like, why would you put yourself out there? So, anyway, that basically all of those leads go cold. The whole case goes cold for three years. Then on April 9th, 2013. Basically because of that surveillance video. - Yeah. - Which one, the, at, sorry, at the border, with the family grainy from the back saying it's them. The San Diego Sheriff's Department investigators announced the mixed-day family left for Mexico voluntarily. - They're like done. - Yes. - So they come out and they're just basically like, look, they're gone and we don't know what happened now. - Say goodbye. - They're just went to Mexico. - Shit. - So. - I don't have frustrating for the family. - It's terrible. And also, so this is April of 2013. In November of 2013. - April to November, got it. - Right. - A solid six months. - Okay. - Or so? - I don't know, math. - I mean, we could just pause it and add it up. - Why would we? - So. - It's not this part. This isn't a math spot guy. - British math. - This isn't an accounting podcast. - For fuck's sake. This is not a calendar podcast. Clearly. On November 11th, 2013. - Okay. - There's a guy writing in the desert, the Mojave Desert, he's writing a motor cross area. - But it's, it's your new boyfriend. - It's Jimmy Buttons. He's just, he wants to get back on the bike and just kind of experience the whole time. - Sure. - He's out there and he hits, his tire hits something weird. He goes back. - No. - It's a human skull. - No. - Yes. He calls 911. I'm pretty sure it's the real call that was on people magazine. - Shut up, what does he say? What does he say? - He just goes, yeah. I'm running my motorcycle out here back behind the dump. And I think I just found a human skull. - Holy shit. - Like he just sounds like the most bummed out motor cross guy of all time. I just wanted to fucking top some wheelies. - Yeah, I'm just trying to have fun like a kid because you know how hard life can be sometimes. And I found a skull. - I bought a save some money and I bought this thing for myself 'cause it brings me joy and it's the only thing I have that brings me joy to life. - And of course death is around every corner. - Sure. And we all know that. - So can I get some help out of here? - So I found a skull. - Oh, all the poor Jimmy. - But now here's the thing. - Okay. - Jimmy Buttons, exo exo. The San Bernardino sheriff's office takes over. 'Cause it's up, the where that skull is found is up in the desert and it's not ins, like it's not San Diego sheriff's office anymore. - Different place. - And so San Bernardino's two separate counties. - Different places. - So San Bernardino's like, yeah, we got this. Everybody else came back. - Yeah, you remember San Diego? You were like, no, they walked away. - They walked into San Diego. - San Bernardino's like, yeah. They're like, so we're on this and they send forensic investigators to the site, including an anthropologist, and they work all night and into the morning. And then the next day, November 15th, San Bernardino County Sheriff, John McMahon, identifies the bodies found as Joseph, Summer, Joseph, and Johnny mixed day. The whole fucking family's been murdered. - How did they know it was them when they were digging? - Because they, lots of bones were broken, but they had the dental records and the dental records identified everybody. But they wouldn't know to check the dental records until they knew what to check them against. - Yeah, because there's two adult bodies. - And two children. - And two child bodies. - Oh, God. - And two separate graves. - So tell me what happened. - So awful. Okay, so the family's house has been sold. There's a new family living in the house. So they, San Bernardino County Sheriff's, wanna go back in, but then they're like, anything that could have been in there that could have possibly been a clue is gone. But the Azuzu trooper is still in, I guess, somehow in police custody. So they go back and they fucking pull every ounce of forensic evidence that they can out of it. And what they find is there is trace evidence of Joey's business partner, Chase Merritt, in the fucking Azuzu trooper. So they start to look into Chase Merritts. Chase Merritts. - Chase Merritts Merritts? (laughing) - And his D Merritts turns out he's next con with a mile-long rap sheet. - Oh, Chase. - He's been chased down. - That's right. - So many words that are other words. - Chase has come to an, I don't know. There's something there. - So he had served time for burglary grants after receiving stolen property. And he also had a gambling problem. So as Joey's company was getting more and more successful, he was borrowing larger and larger sums of money from Joey. And by 2010, Chase Merritt owed Joey over 30,000 dollars. - Holy shit. - Yes. And when Summer found out that amount that he owed, she was like, what the fuck are you doing? That's too much money to find somebody and that's crazy. And I think Joey was in that position where he had all the success and all this money and everything was going great. So all the people that came and were like, yeah, well, you owe me because he'd be like, sure, here, how much do you need? And was really generous and just wanted everyone to be like happy like he was. - And it was like, he's grateful for everything he has. And so he's making sure he's paying it to people who helped him. - Right, exactly. - And Chase Merritt's there going, well, I'm your business partner and I'm your guy. And I just have this little please hold me over for a little while, I just need $10,000. So basically as they continue to look in, they know summer was really upset about that amount. She wanted to talk about it. Like, it was like a real issue. Then they look at Chase Merritt's phone records and on the night the mixed-day family went missing. His cell phone was shown being used right near where the bodies were found. And they found out that Merritt's sister lived close to that location as well. They had grown up. It was, I think, near Victorville. It was like Mojave Desert somewhere. Basically that's where he knew the area very well. So-- - Why didn't they know that before? - I know. They didn't look into it, I guess. Because they were like, oh, they are in Mexico. Everything, that's fine. So then I like to think forensic accountants found this out, but I don't know who did. - I bet they did. - Some super exciting, wonderfully dressed, chic, hot, exciting, forensic accountants, find that Chase Merritt had written a company check for the amount of $21,000 after the mixed-days went missing. - Oh, shit. - Which is just fucking stupid. So I would think that would be the last straw, but the chronology could be wrong. So any number of those things could have been the last straw, finding out that his sister lived nearby, all those things. But basically they're like, oh yeah, okay. So on November 7th, 2014, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Investigators announced that they have arrested Charles Chase Merritt, and he's charged with four counts of murder in the mixed-day slangs. Okay, so prosecutors alleged Chase Merritt has a gambling problem. He killed the family for financial gain, and basically he wrote checks totally more than $21,000 on just the mixed-days business account in the days after the family was killed. Then he went on a gambling spree at nearby casinos. - Which one, Marongo? I bet I was Marongo. - Go Marongo. - Don't do it. - Where, of course, he lost thousands of dollars. - Dude, on what? What are they gambling on? - You know, fucking like-- - Buffalo, am I Buffalo machine? - High stakes Buffalo machine. - High stakes Buffalo and fucking Wheel of Fortune. - It's just like that thing of like anything else where you're like, so you couldn't stop playing fucking 21, so you killed four people. - Including two little babies. - Like the cutest. - Oh, monster. - On January 30th, 2015, Chase Merritt request to represent himself. - Always a good son. - Great idea. You're fucking sane as shit. - He said he only had six to eight months to live that he couldn't afford an attorney and he had to represent himself. So this turns out is very sad for him. - I hate him so much. - So the trial is delayed because he keeps on firing these attorneys and he tries to represent himself, but I'm sure he couldn't do it. February 2016, he had already gone through five attorneys. - Shit. - July 2017, his trial is tentatively set for September 25th, 2017. A month later, a San Bernardino County Superior Court judge sets a November 13th, 2017 trial date. November 13th, 2017, the trial is way-- - Wait, that's like a month ago. - Until February 23rd, the trial starts tomorrow. The trial of Chase Merritt, who fucking killed the McStay family starts tomorrow if they don't wave it again. - Holy shit. - Yeah, let's go to it. - Dude, the cool thing about the way people magazine investigators set up that thing was I was like, oh, it's totally that ex-boyfriend, clearly. Then you go, it's totally the way-- - Well, I'm like that too, which anything I watch, it's them. It's like, it's an ex-person. - But within that world, the police had so much work to do and so many people to like peel away. The really awful thing though, is this family, their Joey McStay had electrical cord around his neck, but the whole family was bludgeoned to death. - Oh my God. - And they found the, you know, the sledgehammer where the bodies were buried. - What did he do it? - Right, and like, he, whoever did this, and if it was him or somebody else, sledgehammer to death of family. Like, it's a monster among us. It's so horrifying. - Ah. Oh my God. - Yeah, it's just like, I think what always bothered me, and I followed this case obviously not until recently because I didn't know that was going on, but I think once I found out that their bodies were found, I was like, I can't. That's anymore because you didn't hear so much about it. - Yes. - Like, I knew what happened, okay, I'm done. But I've always pictured, you know, their house and the two bulls of popcorn, like little kid popcorn on the couch, they had just sat their kids down so they could watch something on TV with some popcorn. - And the theory is. - So that the parents could have a conversation with Chase. - With the business partner to say, hey. - You can, this can't happen anymore. - You're not doing this anymore. - And he fucking lost it. - Or he was like, oh, we should all go to a, let's all go out to dinner or let's all, like something to get everybody together in the car. - Oh. - Yeah, there was, like, it didn't happen in the house 'cause there's no blood, there's nothing. - Yeah. They don't end the defense attorneys in the beginning, we're trying to say that the prosecution is trying to say that the house is where the initial attack took place because there's not a drop of blood there that can't, it must be wrong or whatever. When obviously, there's, because there was no broken glass, there was no doors were broken, there was no forced entry, there was no sign of a struggle. They left of their own accord with the business partner/friend that they thought everything was fine with. - That they trusted? - Yes. - So they don't know where the murder took place. - But I think if he, I think it took place out in the desert, I think he got them into the car and then drove them against their will. - Because, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. - But then, yeah, but then you wonder like, if the dad had then the rope on his neck, 'cause he probably would have fought if the dude brought out a gun and was like, you're coming with me, so he subdued him somehow. - Yeah. - I mean, because I think it's that thing, and all the people that are suspect, it's all these people that are your good friend, your business partner, the person you talk to every single day. So clearly it's someone, couldn't be more on the inside that turned. And the idea that this guy has like a rap sheet of my along work, clearly he doesn't have a huge problem with breaking along, doing what he needs to do to get his. - Right. - I don't know, it's, I mean, it's fascinating. And also just at the beginning, and that was, you know, years ago, he was like, oh, I only have six months to live. Or it's like, sorry, what? Like, he said he had like, what? Cancer or some shit? - He, like at first his lawyers were like, yeah, he's very unwell. And then he fires the lawyers and is like, I'm sick. I'm just gonna represent myself. Like it's just that whole psychopath thing of like, this is about me and how hard it is. The struggles of my life. - Yeah. - And nobody else matters or counts. - Ugh. - So crazy. So we'll have to keep our eyes peeled and. - For sure. - See what happens in that case. - Fuck, man. - I know. - That was good, Karen. - Thank you. - I'm just a messenger. - You're just a messenger. - I don't wanna take credit for the worst fucking story of the time. - You don't wanna try credit for people magazine investigates, but I will, 'cause man, that's a good show. - Shit. - Well? - That's creepy. I also printed up a picture of the leaves. (laughs) That was what I was trying to print last week, or the week we did. - Oh, no. - It's just reminding you, yeah, 2010. - Never forget about 20 times. - Well, shit. - Thank you. - For sharing that. - Of course. (crickets chirping) - Okay, we're back, Karen. Are there any updates? - There are updates for this one. On April 7th of 2018, Chase's attorney filed a motion in San Bernardino Supreme Court claiming that Joey's business records were hearsay evidence, making them inadmissible. That trial began on January 7th, 2019, and then in June of that year, he was found guilty and he was sentenced to death on January 21st, 2020. But there's a moratorium on the death penalty in California, so Chase is currently incarcerated at a correctional facility in San Diego, and he has no eligibility for parole. He maintains his innocence. He says he's preparing a habeas petition to prove his innocence. He claims he was the victim of prosecutorial misconduct, abusive discretion, judicial error, In fact. of assistance to council. He's got a whole list of complaints. In 2025, the book down to the bone came out that details the murders and this trial. So that's everything about the actual case. Also, we mentioned Jimmy Buttons during my story, and he, of course, got made into an MFM animated entitled Jimmy Buttons. And so you can go watch that on our YouTube channel right now on youtube.com/exactlyrightmedia. All right, good job. Okay, let's head back in for good things of the week. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Hollywoodland, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. So on August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started, and she died again. The third way. Listen to Hollywoodland on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I like Bumble. Also Girl Farmers Only.com. Like state sales, funerals, auctions are usually good. There's a lot of good media grocery stores near gyms. Darcy Carden. And I remember being like, I know this is good advice, but like I really don't want to do that. I didn't take her advice. No. Nailed to Grass Tyson. I was a geek kid. And so. Sherry O'Terry. Young and restless. Okay. Some of us abbreviated it because we've been so weird for some years. T.S. Madison. Are you into Polly? No. No, I'm not. Okay, it's a Polly. Just based on what she's wearing and the way her hair is styled. She was not in a Polly, okay? On a Ferris, Dave Franco, Madeline Klein, Hannah Gadsby, Adam Scott, Wanda Sykes, and more. Listen to Dear Chelsea on iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On Boxing Day 2018, Joy Morgan was last seen our secretive chart six weeks later she's reported missing. I'm Charlie Brent Coast Cough and after years of investigating Joy's case, I need to know what really happened to Joy. This is the missing sister, the true story of a woman betrayed by those she trusted most. Listen to the missing sister on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. To wrap up the show, do you have some kind of a hooray? I do have one. Okay, you go first. Mine's stupid. I'll go first. Okay, the other night I couldn't sleep. I was laying in bed thinking about the hometown murders and how crazy they've become. And I thought of another one that I want people to send in. So it's just a random I would I want to hear this now. Okay, because this is my hooray. Great. I want people to send me, not me. I want people to send us at my favorite murder, Gmail stories of how they found out after like grandpa died. We went through the fucking basement. Yes. And that's how we learned. So there's this article and vice that I recently reread called my grandmother, the Poisoner by John Reed that I say everyone needs to read, but like one of those. Yeah, we realized my grandma might be poisoning all of us, but we just acted like it was normal and like don't eat grandma's food. There's a real good article. What the fuck? Yeah. So it's one of those what the fucks? How did we not know? We found out this after I want those those are our new hometowns that I want. Please, right? And if anything involves an attic, an attic, we were going through a thing and we found out. Yes, dot, dot, dot. And a trunk, microfiche, whatever it is. And a lot of drawers. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like murder. I'm just talking about like weird shit. Like we didn't realize this about my mom and tell or whatever the fuck. Yes, that's great. I love that. It's that's a great idea. I was going to say this my hooray for this week is these fucking kids from that high school in Florida who are standing up and fucking taking the mic away from these inept fucking leaders of this country and the rotten shitty toxic adults that are so fucking greedy that they don't care about human life anymore and they are taking it back. I am so proud that the way they're handling themselves and I just want to say to all these kids that are watching other kids be this empowered and just know this is the world needs you so bad right now because these adults have gone insane and you are the voice of reason. And anyone trying to tell you you can't talk or you're being over emotional. You don't have to listen to any of those old fucks at all and you can do you're not over emotional. Your opinion matters more than other people's because once you stand on the other side of a fucking AR 15 and almost die in your high school, you get to say what you think about gun control and your opinion matters and you have to you don't be stopped by fucking closed doors of senators and governors don't be stopped by internet trolls don't fucking fall for any of that shit and do what you know is right because those old fucks are they're locked up in greed and they're locked up in fucking shitty like they don't even know what they're they've gone insane truly and we need you so badly right now so congratulations and I'm so sorry but also fuck yet like rise up children yes and I and even the people who the teenagers who you haven't had a shooting at your school yet to me the thought you know I graduated the year before Columbine and now the thought of going to high school knowing every fucking day that that could happen is terrifying to me and I'm not in my school so everyone who's in high school and in college and in these in these situations like why why is the world the words school shooting so normal yeah shouldn't be no it's all these kids who need to fucking do something and you're totally right and it's not just the fucking people it's the adults as someone who's 37 we stop giving a shit and we go fucking dead in the brain and we don't know what we're what to do yes so you we need you so badly it's your fucking future we support you I saw some thing today that was like schools are fucking threatening to to um suspend students yeah I got suspended in high school guess what it doesn't fucking matter not only does it not matter but guess what if you get shot by a fucking AR 15 because some fucking it all right racist piece of shit runs through your school trying to shoot people it won't matter suspended or not this is a we are at a really crucial time where these what these kids are doing you're standing up and going no fucking more because we almost died yeah they're not spoiled little activists children they're not like these pieces of shit that are trying to talk shit about them they are people who say survived and be now have a clarity that you can only get when you fucking almost get killed where you step forward and go I know it matters I know it doesn't matter and I'm about to tell you something and these old men that run this country they're so obsessed with being in a fucking yacht club that they don't give a shit about human life that generation is dying off I mean I can't imagine how fucking scared the NRA is that they're coming after them I am so fuck we are fucking rooting for you we're behind you and also your 17 a lot of you are 17 are up in that area in one year you can start fucking changing everything yeah and you will mean time your shit's gonna be expunged so just fucking get out there yes and keep going on social media keeping the things that you know how to do that they don't know how to do just communicate on social media there was that brilliant thing where people started to try to accuse one of those survivors of being a crisis actor yeah and he fucking came back on wolf blitzer and was like if any of you saw me in our high school productions of filler on the roof you would know I am not a crisis actor it was like how genius are these they're all trained by TV yeah they're all trained by social media they know how to do this thing they don't need fucking old people telling them what to do anymore and they don't need pieces of shit like school people going oh you'll get suspended hey guess what we're tired they're saying we're tired of dying yeah my sister has lived on the front lines of school shooting culture since it started and she has a teacher when people are saying teachers should walk out teachers should be armed teachers right my sister goes how come we have to fucking do everything this is both like yeah teachers aren't going to be armed this is a school that what we need is less guns not more, that the fantasy of arming everybody to the teeth, did you see that thing online where they showed a picture of moments before Ronald Reagan got shot? And there's just all these arrows to all the CIA going, good guy with a gun, good guy with a gun, good guy with a gun, and he still got fucking shot. He was surrounded on every side. So drop the fantasy that arming everybody is the answer and start looking at the fact that this country has too many fucking guns, wait, what am I saying anything, let the children listen to them? We're not in the thing too, and I've gotten an allowed fight with my mom in a fucking fancy pizza restaurant about this, because we're not trying to take away fucking the sky, Eric's fucking gun, his fucking 22, have it, fine, basic fucking regulations, especially on automatic fucking rifles, and automatic weapons, and fucking army grade fucking assault assault rifles, and it's just basic fucking regulations in the same way drivers license to, in the same way you and I would have to fucking have if we wanted to get an abortion or wanted to get birth control, like we, you know, like what the fuck is the difference, the difference is it's a big big money, lots of money, you've been fucking brainwashed, and if you're not on the side of fucking, of protecting children, then you're on the wrong side and you need to fucking know that. Yes, and that idea, the threat of they're coming for our guns is like an NRA based fantasy of this government takeover, like your boys in office, like you can let go of, they were saying if we just got rid of 100,000 guns, there would still be 300,000 in the mix, like this is a, it's a crisis, it's a fucking crisis, it's a real crisis. I've been worrying about it and worrying about it, and to see fucking teenagers actually doing something about it is, it's overwhelming to me, to see it happening, and someone doing something about it, and I, and all we can do is say that we support it, 100%. Please keep, please keep going, and please know that you, the fight, and they know, none of this needs to be said to them, but we're talking about, you know, not teenagers who support it as well. Exactly. What we can do is just get behind it. As we said, as James Patterson said, murder is forever. You fucking lose your 14 year old in a school shooting, the fucking end, look around your house, look around your family, and say, who am I willing to lose so that somebody else can have a gun? Because I bet you that answer is fucking nobody, but it's totally fine for these other families to lose babies, to lose children in the hallway of their high school. That is bullshit. We need to start golden rolling some shit in this country. We need to take back this, like, I got mine too bad for your family, like, and guess what? These kids are the ones that are going to do it, and it's fucking electrifying. I'm an awe. I'm an fucking awe of these kids. God bless. I love them. And we're back. Okay. So this episode originally was entitled "Project Art of Choke," one of the greats. What if we weren't ending it today based on something we said in the episode? Maybe we would call it third and final, Karen's last apology ever. I really miss yelling at the audience and being rude to people on Twitter. Those days are so far behind me now. Also, R.I.P. George, we could name it "Fearlessly Private Dog," which people really took to when I declared that she was "Fearlessly Private," even though I'm the one that posted the video of her. That became a shirt. That was so important. I feel like we have to, and George's name called it "Fearlessly Private Dog." We could do Jimmy Buttons, of course. Yes. Classic. Yeah. Or never forget about 2010 when you basically remind me how I fucked up. Never forget. Never. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening here in what is it? 2026. Let's go back to 2018 to say goodbye. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis, you want cookie? Good boy. Good boy. Good boy. This season, we've got some awesome guests ready to dole out advice. Just like Tiffany Haddish, kind of slide into people's DMs. I like Bumble. Also, girl farmers only die kind. There's a lot of good men there, grocery stores near gyms. Madison, and more. Welcome to Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. On Boxing Day 2018, Joy Morgan was last seen at her secretive chat. Six weeks later, she's reported missing. I'm Charlie Brent Coast Cuff and after years of investigating Joy's case, I need to know what really happened to Joy. Listen to the missing sister on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. This week on the podcast, hey Jonas, we're hanging out with Michael Bubley. After Kevin's recent, interesting confession about Michael. We figured there was only one thing to do. We must invite Michael Bubley on the podcast and we want to know what's on his sexy time playlist. You know, I did an interview and they're like, did you heard about this Jonas Brothers thing? And they're like, what did you think of it? I was like, well, I mean, it's reciprocal. And talk about Kevin's confession, Michael's reaction and a whole lot more. Our conversation with Michael Bubley is out now. Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.