Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 108: King of Police

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you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you experience the new standard and comfort and support with honey love goodbye if audiobooks are your thing or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them you should check out a podcast called ear say the audible and i heart audiobook club hosted by cal penn each episode spotlights standout audiobooks on audible across all kinds of genres sci-fi comedy romance thrillers and more with cal talking to guests who helped break down what makes each story worth listening to it's a fun easy way to discover your next great audiobook check out ear say on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts goodbye we know so much more about our skin than we used to and we know how important it is to take care of it with sarah v sarah v facial cleansers don't strip the skin they strengthen the skin barrier from day one i've always used sarah v they have little samples at my dermatologist as i'm leaving and they don't do that with just anything sarah v is the number one dermatologist recommender and i've always used sarah v as my dermatologist as i'm leaving and i've always used sarah v as my dermatologist as i'm leaving and i've always used sarah v as my and offers a range of facial cleansers for all skin types find yours goodbye hello and welcome to rewind with karen and georgia this is that show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with new insights case updates and pop culture references today we're rewinding to episode 108 which we named king of police this episode originally came out february 15th 2018 so let's listen to the intro of episode 108 hello hi and welcome to my favorite immure dear podcast that tells you it's just about a bunch of fucking things fucking tons of random terrible things right without curse words that's right this is a this is an all christian podcast child friendly a child friendly religious based we've got fucking uh railroad or what are they called trains going by in the background ghost trains we don't believe in evolution uh everything you could want in a podcast uh wow that train's loud yeah do you know i got into an uber the other day and like there was this rock music playing and i was like okay rock music great and then it was like the lyrics were like oh fuck you're trying to sell me hard on jesus h christ and you were like i've had that a couple times in ubers where i feel like people are like they're trying to work they're trying to make a dollar but they're also like well i could kill two birds with one stone and be spreading the word of our lord i wonder if there's like a cult of you know jesus people who are like this is how we're gonna get people on is we're gonna yeah uber and play pretty good rock music pretty good passable it's so funny i did dave holmes friday 40 last friday love it chris fairbanks of do you need a bride and um he said it's first i can't remember how it came up but he goes have you ever had that thing where you you start to hear a song you really like it and then you realize it's christian then you realize you're like a hypocrite kind of what happened well i don't want to hear about how he lifts you up and you raise your your paws in the air he lifts you like dirty dancing style like patrick swayze no one puts jesus in a corner boom and end the podcast boom goodbye out fuck all y'all hey can i do can i read this because fine i've been exposed as being obsessed with bowling fine i don't care anymore why haven't we bowled yet uh i know we've had at least two days um so someone sent us a picture of the bowling socks i was talking about last on the minnesota the minnesota minnesota um exactly as i described three bowling pins a red bowling ball and what looks like puffs of air at the bottom do you think that's the speed of the ball hitting those because it's like it's like the it's almost like a bombs goes off yeah on your ankles yeah and they're um these ones uh it says this is for hard stark that's you georgia thank you oh because this is instagram okay stephen ray morris my favorite murder i believe i got the mission bowling club is that in san francisco it is gray wing this is from gray wing on instagram san francisco um p.s my grandmother is in the bowling hall of fame what i'm so proud of your grandma who is she we've please send us some more information oh yeah gray wing is in the bowling hall of fame gray wing g-r-e-y w-i-n-g san francisco california if you could please send us a very concise book report three to five paragraphs about your grandmother with photographs from from when she was playing bowling and as an elderly woman what if it's both oh my god what if she started young and went all the way into her into to modern day i want to know what she carried in her purse on a regular basis hall of fame though that's she's not just a great bowler she is of the greatest bowlers and you know san francisco i mean it's where it's that's where my people are from yeah that's why i'm so passionate about bowling it's not like they have a shortage of good bowlers so that means she was really fucking good that's right it's what everyone's like up there it matters uh we're gonna go bowling soon oh today's valentine's day oh yeah happy valentine's day everybody thank you well yesterday was valentine's day based on the when this podcast is going out based on the reality you picked up and you picked up and you picked up and you picked people live in right not the one that we truly are stuck in we're currently drinking coffee and whiskey and that's right we're having such a valentine's day party steven's drinking coffee out of a cat mug which is his lifelong dream right i'm drinking coffee out of an fbi mug no sorry la county corner mug which is my dream george is having some nice whiskey on ice out of a vintage fucking tumbler mug tumbler glass yeah it looks like something that would absolutely have been left on my grandmother's nightstand definitely and then in the background there is a train that has not there hasn't been a train that's come by here in 25 years we're living our lives um i wanted to tell you that after a 20-year hiatus i am again reading stranger beside me oh really yeah what brought you back to it us zac efron well people want to hear people want us to talk about that we have talked about it i know but they want us there's more photos now okay and i and as now that i'm reading it and like in it i see the photos and i'm like i know when that was like supposed to have happened and when did ted bundy go through a weight lifting phase that's the question i have because the first photo i really think he's too cut he's insanely cut for from what i in my limited as we all know extremely limited research he ted bundy always seemed like kind of a skinny little professorial type i think it's like a skinny but like what are the you know like a tennis player sinewy sinewy he's a this is why you wanted gary sinise sinise maybe we just happen to is it sinise or you're just saying that because i think it is there's someone you said he wanted to play him before this whole it was not gary smith um who was it yep steven you can't put your hands up like you don't work here you son of a bitch steven steven you had one job you have one job which is to memorize every word i say it's not gary sinise no it's it's oh god what's his name he looks like ted bundy who would you want to play let's let's go let's start over who do you think should play ted bundy not zach efron let me stroke my minorly invisible beard uh it's uh forget it edit this out no this is no i'm saying no this is steven's like you don't decide he looks like bill pullman okay i remember this and i remember when it hit me i was like i'm a fucking casting genius you were and he's in the movie it's not chris pine is he no okay is he in the movie with jack nicholson when jack nicholson is there are people who have been screaming at their i know machines this whole time gary And Greg, so similar. You were right there with that G. I mean, with the four-letter word and the G. Greg Kinnear is with dark hair because his eyes are little. He's good-looking classically, but his eyes are just enough close together that you are suspicious of his agenda. Is this train circling the apartment? I think the train is coming for us. Can you hear it, Steven? Okay, good. We're tight on the track right now. It's the 1920s. We haven't paid our rent. Steven is twirling his mustache as he watches us tied to the track. Oh, good Buster Keaton's here. Oh, great. You know, now, of course, I'm having Ted Bundy nightmares. Okay, because you're in that book. And I keep saying, stop reading this, Georgia. Stop reading this, Georgia. And I can't put it down. It's so good. It's so good, and it's also so dated. And Ann Rule, like, she should never have died because she just needs to keep updating this book. It's the idea. Like, when she tells that story, the idea that she was this single mother who was trying, who was working for the police department, but it was also trying to be a freelance writer. And she's like, what are the fucking chances? What are the chances? And she's, but she's also volunteering at night. Like, what a, what a badass. And then she volunteers next to pretty much one, second only to like Ed Gein or Dahmer, like one of the most. I think maybe Dahmer. Gacy. But one of the, like, yeah, no. I think Ted Bundy. I think Ted Bundy. He was relatable to everyone because he was hot. Yes. He was so tricky. He was the ultimate, like, wolf in sheep's clothing. He was, he was kind of small. Well, she didn't even believe that he could have done it for so many. She didn't believe it when it was like, it's, we've found a man in a gold Volkswagen Bug. She called the, her friends at the detective agency and was like, just look into my friend. I know this is weird. Yes. Like, she even turned him in and she was like, I don't, it can't be. It can't be him. But could you look? She was like, I can't deny this stacking up facts. Right. But still, it's not him. I know it's not him. And I'll, yeah. That's the classic sociopath, like, or psychopath. Well, we didn't know it at the, well, we, I wasn't boring. They, you know, they didn't know it at the time that that was a thing that even though someone doesn't look like a fucking murderer. Or act like it. No one, those people don't act like murderers. Yeah. Well, now we know. Well. So the movie is coming out of, with Zac Efron. I hope he kills it. I'm looking forward to it. I think he will. I think he looks like him enough. And the other thing that she keeps talking about is that he was like a shapeshifter, that he looked different all the fucking time, which is why it was so hard to pin down is that he kind of always changed his look. That's right. In fact, you can, if you look it up online and I'm sure everyone that's most of the people listening have already seen this, but there is a collage of his mugshots. And you can see how the way they couldn't, like when he went from Seattle to Utah. And it's not even like a beard or not a beard. It's just this look in his face. It's so different. And that's the spookiest part. Yeah. And then by the time he gets to Florida, he's just a fucking maniac. Good for Zac Efron, man. What a fucking role. Yeah. I think he can do it. Oh, what a dream. Well, so there's this, there's this documentary. Can I just say this? Yeah. He can't. I hope he knows. And if they're still shooting and he can, hear me, don't smile with your eyes because that's it. You got to go dead zone. Totally. With those crazy eyes. Totally. Cause Zac Efron's a big, like, he's like one of the reason he's like a Disney star is because he's one of those 12 year old boys that would wank at a grown woman. It's a, it's a specific type of Bieber. He's a, he's a Ryan. Um, let's do this again. Oh my God. He's a Ryan. Let's do it some more. Who's the one everyone loves? I don't like him. Steven. Ryan Seacrest. No. Are you fucking kidding me? Steven. He's the one, you know, the blonde one who was in drive drive, right? Oh, Ryan Gosling. Thank you. He's a Gosling. You were almost fired. Oh, he's a Gosling. Seacrest. God damn it. Um, Steven out of a job. That's how you fire Steven. What if that's how Ryan Seacrest fires people? Joanne out of accounting. Oh, Joanne, she did her best. She tried, but someone knows something. Season four started loving it. David Reagan. I love something that someone knows something so good. This new one is about, I love something, something, something this new one is about. This dude who gets sent this bomb explodes in his fucking hands, dies, still hasn't been solved. It was like 1996 and goes back to fucking figure out what happened. It's super good already. And I'm really. I'm really angry because they didn't drop all the episodes at once. Oh, wait, which is so smart, but there's nothing worse than having to wait, but I hate it. That's great. Yeah, it's good. Does he, does he crunch down any country lanes? He, he fucking does his signature crunching to the, towards the door from his car. Beautiful. He does. It's his thing. It's his signature. I see him in my mind as I listened to him do that. And it's such a delightful and yet also incredibly upsetting movie. Only he can get. Get away with that. Yeah. Cause it's such a documentary filmmaker thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so exciting that there's another season. I love it. Yay. That's all I have to say. And we are back. So much Jesus, so much Christian talk. We love it. We really do. When was the last time you went bowling? Oh, um, recently. It's a thing I do when I go home a lot. Okay. Yeah. I love bowling. I do too. Until I get like halfway through and then I'm like, this is cause I'm not good at it. So like once you know, you're not going to get over a hundred ever. Yeah. Right. You know, but those shoes are so cute. I think it's like just a repetitive action of something to do that keeps you from like standing around making awkward small talk. I always kind of love that. That's a good point. And it usually turns into something else. Like in my, you know, in my time. Yeah. Where it's like, now we're going to go to the Buckhorn. Yeah. That makes total sense. I'll always go bowling if someone asks me to go. It's like, yeah, it's so fun. I was just talking about that, how I love, I really want to do a weekly thing that repeats every week, no matter what, where it's like a thing you can always do that people will always be there where, whether it's like Mahjong or bowling or just like a dinner or something where you're just kind of like, it's just the, the gathering itself is kind of like the practice. Yeah. Yeah. That's such an old lady thing to say. No, you've always liked that though. Like game night, you know? Yes, exactly. That kind of thing. Right. I never do a show like that. I know. A book club. I'm always threatening to fucking start a book club, but. Book club is like homework club. Like you can't tell me what to do, even though I agreed to it. And maybe it was my idea in the first place. Like, how dare you? I've never, I've never been to a book club in my life. I've only seen them on the screen. I think it's really funny. I've never been invited to a book. I don't think they exist. I don't think they exist in real life. I think people are fucking lying to us. I don't think they exist for girls like you and me. I think that's what it is. They're just like, um, maybe next time. Yeah. We're reading something way above your pay grade. We want people who will do the reading, not lie about the book in the group, not get drunk first, not yell at people during, during the book. Not tell them they're wrong. No, that's very good point. I only say that because in the nineties, we started like a scene. A cold reading kind of scene class. And it was just a bunch of comics who didn't want to be so bad at auditioning. But the majority of us would just get super drunk during the class. And then the people who started it got really mad. Oh my God. How do you trying to work here? And we're like, we're having fun. It's our class now, bitch. Oh, just remember when everything was someone knows something. I love someone knows something. It's so comforting. And he's got eight seasons out now. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. He's Canadian, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's CBC. You can rely on the Canadians to come through. Yeah. It turns out they have a lot of true crime. You guys, we think they're all innocent and like, you know, like the preppy cousin of us, but no, they've got some shit on their shoes. Not all maple syrup and pie. How are you? They don't say that. Don't they? All right. Well, so should we get into your story? Your crazy, your crazy story. That's so bad. All right. Let's listen to Karen. Let's listen to Karen's story about Matthew Hoffman and the 2010 tree murders. Okay. So this was a story that I wanted to do when we were in Columbus. Okay. But it's too awful. Oh, good. So I'm going to go back. I know that these days I've been doing lots of slightly off kilter, lighter, whatever types of stories. I've gone all the way back to the ridge. This is a fucking awful, awful and recent murder. And you can't tell them why you can't do it at live shows. Well, in live shows. Well, first of all, we have to have stuff that we can talk about and riff about and like and connect over and kind of go like, wait, what did you just say or whatever? And when it's a especially if it's a recent murder, if children are involved, if it's unsolved, if it's, you know, just if it's if it's just relentless horror if it hits too close to home yeah yeah you just don't want to it's horrible yeah and also I think everyone together I mean we've had times where we've talked about really hard stuff but then but it can't just be that way the whole time so but when I was looking this up I was on I was like I think it might be worth it because there's an element to this that is so fascinating it's it kind of transcends the horror of what happened well I think we should do whatever we want when it's you and I yeah right and there's Stephen uh but at live shows it's hard to do really horrific murders yeah yeah just like look up I mean there is an interesting element to like grieving with 2,000 people at a time yeah not when they're mad at you yeah okay it's just hard but so I can just tell you this and then okay people can listen I'm just going to tell you no one else is listening Stephen please put those headphones on more so this is this happened in Mount Vernon Ohio last November holy like as in four months ago four months ago November December January oh shit four fucking months ago happy 2018 by the way did we even say that it's Valentine's Day happy Valentine's Day and then upcoming President's Day so on November 10th of last year uh when Tina Herman didn't show up for work at Dairy Queen her boss goes over to her house to check and see what's going on and when he gets there he finds it littered with beer cans and covered in blood it was actually described as looking like a horror movie inside the house oh god so of course he immediately calls the police um Tina's not in the house her 13 year old daughter's not in the house her 11 year old son's not in the house and her friend whose car is in the driveway is not in the house so immediately the police start a massive manhunt there's people walking around on foot it's in the air like the whole the whole area goes crazy the next night Tina Herman's pickup truck is found near the Kenyon College campus they actually when they found the pickup truck they did a lockdown on the school because they thought maybe the guy was nearby oh shit um the police interview people that are walking around the area don't find anything suspicious um back at Tina Herman's house the police are processing the scene find Walmart bags with with a receipt a Walmart bag with a receipt inside and the receipt shows purchasing um of garbage bags and a large heavy duty tarp never good not pulling all the police are like you know what I remember this chapter in school bad fucking news so they go to that Walmart that's on the receipt they check their surveillance and they're like oh my god there's a video the time the receipt and on it they it clearly shows a very um a young not very young but a young brown-haired man probably in his early 30s buying these items at the store and on the video they can also see when he leaves they see him drive by in his Yaris Yaris I was not expecting that that's right there are a lot of people drive Yaris's proudly and this guy was one of them so the cops go to the DMV they search the records they cross-check whatever Yaris's they they go to all the Yaris owners check yours they arrest all of them for bad taste I'm joking oh my god onslaught of Yaris everyone I know it's a good car how dare you I bought this with my own money although I had to tell you my friend Tisha and I we bought I bought my Honda Fit at the same time she bought her Yaris and she was trying to decide between the two and I was always like you gotta go with Honda Fit she was like nope I think I'm gonna go with the Yaris and I was just like I felt so like it was like smug UCLA versus USC I was just like goodbye yeah you're not we're not on the same team anymore wow I haven't spoken to her since that's how deep this Yaris shit goes with me okay so they find out through the DMV records and his driver's license this man is Matthew Hoffman he's a 30 year old unemployed treasurer he's a 30 year old unemployed treasurer he's a 30 year old unemployed trimmer then once they see the pictures one of the officers goes I fucking talked to that guy up at the college when we found the truck like one of the people he questioned yep he was right nearby so they're like call everybody we're doing the trip right now circle the circle the troops circle the wagons is what most cops say when they think they have a person gather the gather the wagon circle the troops gather our friends and let us go out together and fight crime yes so we're going to send the SWAT team to this guy's house and uh so this is this basically takes four days so four days after the family's found missing the cops kick his I I don't know how it happened kick it the cops kick down the fucking door uh Matthew Hoffman is sleeping on the couch inside in the living room and are you ready no your face looks unhappy well it's just it's not horrifying but it's this they find the entire living room is filled with leaves huge pile of leaves leaves leaves um piled so high that the police feared bodies might be buried underneath them what the fuck so many fucking leaves Mount Vernon police detective Craig Feeney told the Columbus dispatch so much runs through your mind what if somebody's hiding under that pile or in this case I thought what if that's where he's hiding the bodies what the fuck leaves leaves they walk down the hall to the bathroom no don't do it you want to pull up these pictures I brought pictures for you uh-huh this is how I found this story and it stopped me so cold I was just like what in the fuck are we doing oh my God oh my God so this is the bathroom no no I'm showing you the picture what the walls of the bathroom are lined with plastic shopping bags filled with leaves and it looks insulated like insulation like before you put on the drywall you put bags of say Kmart and thank you thank you thank you and of like perfectly filled bags of leaves perfectly spaced perfectly hung each one right up the same width same depth of you know it's not like sloppy bags of leaves hung on the wall the hiles of leaves on the ground I've never heard of this because it just happened I think oh and so that's you yeah so just it's it's not even like it's just leaves legitimate it's not dirt and it's not gravel it's just leaves and isn't that something that's absolutely from like a David Fincher movie yeah because it's one of those things where it's like it doesn't mean anything but it's so creepy yes as it is it just like the moths and signs the land right where you're like it's just moss it's not that big of a deal people collect insects I guess okay I mean you know a bit yeah the touch yeah but when that moth lands next to her and when she's like may I use your phone please um I always have to get one of those in there okay so I love it uh finally they go down into the basement the basement there's a door closed and it's barricaded with this big sewing machine cabinet thing when they break down the door they get inside they find Tina Herman's 13 year old daughter alive she's bound and gagged and she's laying on a makeshift bed of leaves this dude loves leaves I mean it's so and it's this dank creepy basement obviously she's been raped and she was wearing a plastic bag with holes cut it for legs like a diaper so creepy oh my God he's arrested taken into custody the did I not see this I don't know Twitter's algorithms are really disappointing me I mean I was so like this was one of those ones where I was just like I don't know I think it's worth I think this is the kind of thing that people that are interested in true crime when you hear a story where you're like sorry what are we doing like what is this but like I was in Columbus with you and I was like looking up Columbus murders to to do for the show and I didn't see this right okay I mean I feel like it was breaking news most of the articles that I found to tell you about this were they were waiting for like basically once they found the girl they still didn't know where the family was and they still didn't know they were like we still have three people missing thank God she's well and they and just so you guys know they they did print her name when they first reported on the story then when they realized she was a sexual assault victim they stopped printing her name so that's why I'm not saying her name okay um so they're questioning Matthew Hoffman he's not saying anything they said that this reporter that was writing this said that these stories are from the Columbus Dispatch and also from the Denver Post but they say there's hours of footage of police trying to question him and him just not saying a word and then finally um uh he tells the police that he wants to confess because he has a bad dream about being at a food processing plant oh no so he tells police he opened up the in the dream he opened up a trash bag at the food processing plant and he saw cut up body parts and he got a knot in his stomach and it all quote unquote came back to him and so finally he confesses to the murder of Tina Herman her 11 year old son Cody and her friend Stephanie Sprang whose car was in her driveway oh no he tells police that he waited in the woods across the street from Tina Herman's house the night four he was up in a tree leaves unemployed tree trimmer he's got a tree issue he's up in a tree he watches the house all night at nine in the morning he sees tina herman leave the house so he thinks the house is empty and the the garage door doesn't go down all the way so he sees his this is his chance to slip in he goes into the house um he's in he he told police do we know how or is this going to come up like how he knew who they were he just it was just a random well he had already been arrested once before for burglarizing a house by slipping into an open garage door okay so when he told police he actually had only gone in to burglarize the house they believed that it was basically an interrupted burglary because he had done it once before and only burgled the house okay um and there's other extenuating circumstances in his life that are different on this one but basically uh tina and her friend um stephanie came back um to the house and interrupted him an hour after he broke in and so he stabbed them both to death holy shit yes and then he's just dismembering their bodies and and the kids come home from school so he stabs the 11 year old boy to death in the doorway um the 13 year old daughter runs to her room he grabs her he ties her up with um an electric fan cord and he puts her in his truck or in his i can't it's it's really weird because he did this thing where um he had a jeep um but then he also used tina's truck right and that's why he's the one that left it at the college and he had gone on foot back somewhere and he was walking back to drive the truck back to her house and that's when the cops started talking to him so he had this whole play it cool they didn't even suspect him yeah so something is fucking wrong with this dude that's the old psychopath they don't get nervous they don't they can look somebody in the eye and be like yeah i'm i'm just here on the bike path chilling out um yeah so what had happened is he put um these dismembered bodies and the little girl they don't think that the girl saw the house like maybe she was blindfolded or something because she didn't know anything about her her mom was going on brother or dad or no she didn't know she just knew she was kidnapped baby so he dropped her off at his house put her in that basement um then left he drove to the cocosing i'm sure i'm saying it wrong the cocosing wildlife area uh which was apparently he's a big outdoorsman and he uh like went there a lot and camped out a lot and you know liked trees a lot um he with a rope uh and pulley system he pulled their body parts up and put them into a 60-foot hollow tree and hid them there so holy shit that like wouldn't even cross my mind yes no no no no it's like it's it's beyond the perfect and most like obscure hiding place the police were like if we didn't make the deal because he said i'll tell you where the bodies are if you don't give me the death penalty the police were like if we didn't do that we would have never found these bodies my mind because i have this you know this in mind of like what like where are all the body like there are over the whole globe there are bodies hidden in crazy forests and weird places and yeah that wouldn't even fucking cross my mind now i have a whole another fucking thing to worry about well and also because it's up so high that like it's all this premeditation it's this plan it's this everything about it and then it also makes me go like oh who put bella in the witch yeah it's that weird like the tree thing it's real oh god now i have a whole another thing to worry about yeah it's so crazy we can lump it right into just the forest issue that we always do yeah file it under that yeah it's just not going to be buried this time right basically he planned to then once he went and picked that truck up he was going to take it back to her house burn the house down and like get rid of all the evidence that was his plan um and then he told police that he also planned to he said he was really nice to the daughter and that he planned to just keep her for a little while he was gonna he they played video games they read books they watched movies he he gave her hamburgers blah blah blah and then he was just gonna let her eventually let her run away she'd be home by christmas this is what he told the fucking police like he had this whole fantasy that he was actually a good guy he was a good guy and he was and he didn't want to do these things but he was putting this what a fucking dick well and also just mental illness gone beyond rapid like just untreated terrible you know whatever so um essentially so they have of course these newspapers have interviewed the neighbors and they this guy has so many neighbors it's amazing and they all have something to say one of the neighbors said there's only two trees near this guy's house so she's neighbor jeanette colomber said he can't have possibly got that many leaves from that tree so he asked all leaves in here from somewhere do we know what the deal with the leaves are i mean he's just obsessed with them yes it's like there was a they did interview and i think this is from the um the columbus dispatch they interviewed a guy named dr ng barrel who is the director of the new york center for neuropsychology and forensic behavioral science so that guy says you would have to talk to him about it and he's like i don't know what to do with it i don't know what to do with it to talk to this guy to understand what the connection is but it's clear that this guy is mentally ill beyond what we associate with normal serial killers or murderers or psychopaths because normally serial killers um are not technically mentally ill they have these character disturbances but they know what's happening and they know that they're doing wrong they like it and that's part of the reason they're doing they get pleasure and gratification from how the terrible things they're doing and the torture that they are inflicting on other people he thinks that this guy had some other thing happening and there was like obviously lots of other issues at hand um god it it's so fucking nuts so uh the neighbor let's see so jeanette said we i don't know where those leaves could have come from because there's no trees around here then a native a neighbor named a henderson butcher says that matthew hoffen was friendly but he used to play with him and he was like i'm gonna throw ropes up in the trees and have like a hammock up in there so in some part of the neighborhood that did have trees he would go in and be in them all the time okay fine right don't fine then fine that's fine just don't just go do that yeah a lot of people like trees donna davis uh d-a-w-n-a my favorite spelling of donna ever it's all the good 70s names combined into one name she was another next door neighbor and she said that she told her children to stay indoors when matthew hoffman was outside oh that's chill yeah and she said that he had moved in alone a year before um and that his girlfriend had lived with him temporarily and then she moved out a month before the murders um and she said she this is what she said to the denver post he'd sit up and listen to us up in a tree he had a hammock and he would just sit there and listen to us oh my god he was just different he was very different and oh my god she said that he walked to foundation park almost every day and was a quote nature person who collected leaves so i guess foundation park was a park nearby that the other neighbor's talking about yeah and he would just go up in there um also his house was in foreclosure um and it had been uh it started in january so he was i think at the end of the year he was in the park and he was like a serious probably psychotic break yeah um he makes that huge confession uh-huh um and oh he also killed the fucking family dog no yeah so once he makes the confession and he said he asked the investigator if i write down the location of the bodies um he hadn't given a given away the location yet and he said uh if i write these down will can i then make a fake like attempt to escape and you shoot me and the and the cop was like no we're not gonna do it that way yeah and so then he wouldn't talk he wouldn't tell them where they the bodies were for two full days and then he finally um he finally told them that whole story that i just told you and the police of course when they saw it were just like yeah we had to we had to make this deal with them because we would have never known sure um so in the end uh matthew hoppin hoffman pledged to kill the guilty to 10 felonies including aggravated murder and rape and he was given a life sentence without the possibility of parole um and the knox county prosecutor john thatcher said um that this knox county has never seen a case like this before it has to rank in ohio history as one of the worst homicide cases ever my favorite murder history too i mean dude so like i thought those leaves would like have something about like they he buried the bodies and had to put the leaves somewhere well it's just he's but the that um psychiatrist they talked to said you know obviously this is all it's his he has some kind of a delusion and some kind of an obsession so in his mind somewhere in his mind and he would be the only person i'd be able to explain what that connection is but right now there's nobody that can say oh he did trees because murder because of trees but like just coming upon a picture of a living room filled with fucking leaves the the bathroom is more troubling to me of just perfect bags lined up and like whatever stapled to the wall it's almost like inverted hoarders like the same feeling i had the first time i saw hoarders but it's organized and only leaves yeah and on the wall and then you got to be like what happened what's going on me everything now yes meanwhile it's a grown man that climbs and plays in trees so like bodyguard but was able to buy a house and have a girlfriend and like how i don't it's so crazy and plan the disposal of bodies in a really smart way yes well yes because once he was in it it was like that is the truth like that um that psychologist that gave that or psychiatrist whatever he was that gave the difference it's like yes he was mentally ill clearly but he also knew what he did was wrong covered it up like yes he he had there was something going on but you can't he it's the insanity defense i don't think could apply because he did he covered up and hid those bodies and hit a girl yeah and raped a fucking girl like you know this wasn't some kind of like i went all over the place this isn't like richard chase that yeah sacramento vampire where you're like what the fuck are you doing dude yeah god damn it anyway that's the matthew hoffman case of mount vernon jesus i don't know how i would have acted on stage to this well i mean it would have felt like this like we're just like oh man well mine isn't much happier okay but it's but it's interesting okay good all right that's all we ask that's all we need from you people you're not what what this is our job okay oh that's a dark one we are back karen do you have any updates only the that matthew hoffman is still serving his life sentence at toledo correctional institution and he remains ineligible for parole and that's it wow yeah all right this is an episode where we both just do terrible stories that's right let's go right into georgia's it's the story about little gregory some flavors will always make you smile and 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eastern france 26 year old jean marie vilman is promoted to foreman at the car parts factory where he works so after his promotion he jean uh marie and his wife christine who's 24 like so young right yeah start uh receiving threatening anonymous phone calls from a person who knows a shit ton about their family um and he calls himself uh the raven oh no yeah what yeah so this person is calling threatening he has a this person has a hoarse voice or it's a woman disguising her voice i listened to one of the recordings from way back when and it sounds like a fucking woman to me for sure was it super creepy yeah it's not even creepy they're having a conversation oh no all right so um the person is angry with jean marie once jean marie had been promoted they think he's putting on airs he's got a lot of money he's not joining the union and so a lot of the articles about this and like every video is in french sure so it's really hard to get information i had to do a lot of google translation bullshit so some of it might be off like the the raven thing it's called the crow and a lot of different like translations which is a totally different horrible death yeah yeah so always ask me for french stuff because i took i took all the way up through french too so the long the launch is the launch it's the launches right there's some fucked up things here okay okay um so they're pissed off at jean marie uh the villamins they alert the police and they begin recording the phone calls and so at that point the phone calls stop and instead uh threatening letters start coming do you think the raven knew the phone calls were being recorded yeah okay because it sounds like someone who was close to the family oh okay maybe even do like a mole yeah that's totally a mole so these threatening letters start coming in there are these rambling letters written in quote long hand and low class slang oh um the letters are signed the raven and say such things as i'll have all your hides and i hate you so much the day you die i will spit on your grave and it's sent to the whole family like you know the grandparents and all these things god so a window of the house is broken in the villman house while christine is at home alone with the couple's young son named gregory oh no and also all the tires are slashed on the family cars so someone is threatening them and it's a small town and the person knows a lot about them the harassment goes on for three years without the villamins or the police having any idea who was behind it and then on october 16th 1984 at around 5 30 p.m christine who's inside doing some ironing goes out to bring gregory in uh he's four years old at this point and she had left him outside to play in the sand beside their house and he's not there oh god no it gets worse uh she gets in her car to drive around the small town looking for him thinking maybe he just wandered off but uh at that point jean marie's brother receives a call at work from an unidentified person telling him i have taken the boy oh so a search begins but by 9 30 that same night gregory is found in the volon river four miles from his home oh god yeah so this is like think there's so many similarities to jean benet case in this so little gregory he's this sweet boy there's this photo of him in the same way that the photo of jean benet looking all smiley and beautiful is you know known to us for ages this photo of gregory is the same thing he's sweet smiling boy with messy curly hair little little little little little little four-year-old he's found bound hand and foot he's fully dressed there's a photo taken at the scene by a journalist it's a roped firefighter holding in his arms and like taking gregory out of the river um he's fully dressed in his blue anorak dark green velvet trousers and uh his like beanie still on his head oh and it's published in the press the next day and it traumatizes all of france and everyone becomes obsessed with this case yeah so uh he's dead did i say that yeah i mean yeah you figured okay the next day uh christine and jean marie receive an anonymous letter that says to jean marie addressed to him i hope you die of grief boss your money can't give you back your son here is my revenge you stupid bastard holy fuck in the same way that the it's so similar right oh remember yes but that was a ransom a fake ransom letter right but it was like your money can't help you yeah oh that's true you know what i mean that's right like i'm jealous of your riches okay so the investigation doesn't fucking start well the lead investigator put on the case uh he's the only investigating magistrate in the district he's 32 year old jean michel lambert it's his very first investigation no 32 oh can you i wouldn't trust a 32 year old to watch my fucking purse for five minutes dude sorry steven how old are you 30 wait a second my wallet's gone steven uh no that's too young too young you need experienced people yeah it's a big fucking different you need people when it's an important thing people have to know what they're doing they have to have experience they can't be in a state of i need to prove myself that's exactly right that's it's it's less like i don't know what i'm doing then i don't know what i'm doing and i need to act like i know what i'm doing yes so i'm going to fucking overdo it i can't listen that's exactly what happens you can't help me oh yeah well it's the same thing with the jean benet when they sent the young and experienced cops on christmas fucking day so 32 year old jean michel lambert first investigation first of all he fails to secure the crime scene and he also doesn't order a full autopsy so the autopsy has been criticized because it was incomplete and sloppy so they don't know there's no bruises on the body pathologists attribute the death to drowning and contact with the cold water they're not totally sure they disagree whether he had been drowned in the river or in tap water because the lung the water in his lungs contained none of the microscopic organisms that one would find in a river oh that's awful i know but they didn't do enough but but lambert was like kind of trying to spare the parents by not making them over autopsy poor gregory it doesn't work that way no unfortunately i mean ultimately yeah so from the beginning suspicion falls on the family of jean marie the father his parents brothers aunts uncles and cousins all lived nearby and when jean marie is promoted to foreman way back when um some of the family members had been unhappy about it so they think that the person who was writing the letters the raven and the killer might be part of this family cut out of like jealousy yeah basically and he has a big family that all lives in this neighbor in this area okay so um police force hundreds of 140 members of the villaman family to take handwriting and dictation tests to compare them to the letters and phone calls that have been going on wow 140 wow um they copied pages of the writing including the text of the last message from the raven and after a month after gregory's murder the 15 year old sister-in-law of jean marie's cousin so jean marie the dad of gregory his cousin whose name is bernard la roche his cousin's sister-in-law this is confusing he's 15 years old so she's just like nerdy red-headed 15 year old totally early 80s like not much maybe a durand around shirt on but like no makeup she's not like punk rock or whatever jean jacket i see her i can see her yeah a comb holding one side of her hair yeah but like really nerdy comb yeah uh a math comb you know yep yeah it's a ruler uh-huh she says she's 15 year old 15 years old she comes forward and tells investigators that the that the cousin her her brother-in-law who's married to her sister 29 year old bernard la roche is the murderer oh wow she tells them that the day gregory was killed she had been picked up by bernard from high school and taken to the villaman's house they picked up gregory and headed for the river and then they parked and bernard went off with him and came back alone so she's fucking pinning it all on her sister's husband okay who's this like smiley big boisterous looking mustachioed messy 80s hair dude okay played by like a young um what's the rosanne's husband on rosanne john goodman like a young john goodman i was thinking vincent d'onofrio no not okay more jovial looking okay got it yeah yeah yeah good to a good time guy totally got it but like why are you smiling inappropriately in this photograph oh you know what i mean yes there's a photograph of the three of the the cousin his wife and his wife's and uh the young muriel her name is muriel boyle there's a photograph of the three of them and i just want to know if it's taken before or after the murder because it's inappropriately smiling and creepy okay you know what i mean yes like there's something about it french people are screaming they're what they think about really happen and i want to know they're like we actually were supposed to smile like this way right so why are you smiling okay um i knew i used to work with an over smiler who actually i'm positive was a sociopath because they don't know when it's appropriate so they just do it the whole time right and they it's this thing of it's almost like that weird hypnosis kind of thing where it's just like yes everything's fine like they're trying to control you with their mouth right with their teeth they learn that people they learn that people mimic things so they just do it yeah like here this is friends friends friends see yeah see it was like someone always trying to show you that they're happy and smiley right they're covering something and you know inherently but you're like but they seem so happy yeah i have to mimic what they're doing because they're setting this state this they're setting the tone of the room which is right we love everything and then when you get older and stop giving a shit about anything you realize like you don't have to do that like when i stop when i stop being that way which i am inherently like a person who will mimic a person's happiness because i'm just uncomfortable that way yeah and i don't do it then i'm like oh this isn't right yeah i don't want to be here it's well because it's like what is why is this person trying to control me this hard like what is how what do they not want me to be paying attention to right i mean this is that photograph in a nutshell from the 80s okay with a mustache steven um wait are you french steven uh-huh okay so she says that and then okay so bernard this guy bernard the cousin and jean marie had played together as children so they're from the same clan it's like a clan more than a family it's almost like fargo that second season when they're like yeah the big crime fight criming family the crimey family they didn't fight crime they crimed um but they had grown apart over the years and bernard was an unkempt often profane man with a mustache and he and his wife they also had a four-year-old child but he was had a learning disability okay so they both had four-year-old children but gregory was this beautiful smiling happy baby that everyone loved and jean marie had been promoted he was getting all this money his dad was in charge of the plant well meanwhile seemed to have a shitty fucking life right so uh they didn't socialize anymore with jean-marie and christine but so he wouldn't have known about the family a lot enough to write these raven letters but one of jean-marie's brothers was good friends with la roche so he would have known okay um he didn't like the the uh velmans blah blah blah okay so at so so this chick marie earl's like my fucking brother-in-law did it i'm 15. what's up yeah at the spot where mariel said uh they had stopped the investigators find a it's a vial of insulin and a syringe they find on the ground okay um they make the investigators think that gregory had been put into a hypoglycemic coma before being thrown into the river okay so that made him unable to so he unable to do anything right and it was also tied up yeah so but but there had been no toxicology report because the autopsy wasn't done correctly so they didn't know they didn't look for needle marks anything like that and so muriel says she wasn't aware of what her uncle was doing she had just been sitting in the car but it turns out that muriel's mother uh janine was a diabetic and that muriel was her insulin injector oh so she might have been more involved than she said she was because she would know how to do it right or she would even have provided them with it but then why would she fucking go to the cops and say he did it like if she's involved that's a no it's true why would she do it anyways there's a lot of questions here well yeah i mean like that's the first and she's 15 and feels and isn't an adult and knows there's right and wrong and your fucking bullshit fights with families don't matter yeah because that's such a huge it's such a stretch from i hate my rich cousin who gets everything to i'm going to kill a child like not even kill your cousin but to to take away the child is such a i want you to suffer specifically yes the most crazy it's so awful right so um they test bernard's handwriting and experts say he had written two of the poison pen letters including the one sent the day after the murder so they say it's it's bernard it matches it matches him and this is in the time where they knew nothing about handwriting analysis like that's back in the zodiac times where they're like no it's not him it's almost like it's in a time when they thought they knew everything about handwriting analysis and now we know that's why they're so mad at him because they're so mad at they know nothing about handwriting you know what i mean it's like the opposite where they're like you can tell everything from that and they're like no no no you can't do that right you're making all kinds of insane assumptions exactly and you sound really fucking smart yeah right so bernard is arrested and then muriel gets the the 15 year old gets sent back to her family's house and a couple days later retracts her entire statement what everyone is like muriel like was bullied by her family into retracting that statement oh everyone thinks that okay uh how dare you turn on the family how dare you on the brother-in-law this you know there's like insane like family like going back probably hundreds of years within this small community with this family right or these families uh and against the prosecutor's advice lambert the police investigating 31 year old dude so the police investigator even though um the public prosecutor's like don't fucking do this they let bernard go because she retracts her statement and they're like well then let's let her go but then that's it well there's because then there's no evidence that he's involved well they were saying there's other evidence right so why wasn't he held oh yeah okay on the day of his release jean-marie gregory's dad uh in front of a bunch of journalists vows that he would kill his cousin bernard of course he did right he vows to kill bernard to journalists to journalists the laroche family tries to get police protection but the police are like nope oh no nope you can't have it and so true to his fucking word on march 29th jean-marie waits outside his cousin's house and when he gets home pulls up he fucking approaches his cousin bernard and she's like oh and shoots him with a hunting rifle oh fuck bernard dies oh my god the cousin dies goodbye john goodman he's out of the picture john goodman jean goodman jean goodman is dead it's like if fucking john uh ramsey had shot you know his boss it's just insane yes these steps people are taking also it seems like reverse police work where it's like let them go don't like don't get details going yeah like everything is it feels like arrest someone now quickly and let them go and then try this and it's just like panic amping everyone up yes and especially small town like anywhere in the world like boulder yes you know exactly small town life where everyone knows everyone's business and there's gossip and there's pressure exactly so uh bernard dies jean-marie immediately turns himself in uh and he's sentenced to five years for the killing whoa yeah meanwhile lambert the police dude is like i know who fucking did this i'll tell you who fucking did this and he starts to build a case against gregory's mother christine whoa uh for the murder of her son at this point she's six months pregnant too let's add that in for fun because this is a fucking lifetime movie yes he's saying that the mother killed her son okay this 33 year old fucking prosecutor uh investigator he's been 31 32 and 33 they're all the same everyone knows well time is passing actually right okay so three locals who worked with christine swore that they saw her at the post office on the date before gregory's death when the revenge letter had been posted which is like i don't think it was true but also who gives a fucking like they're saying they saw her mail the revenge letter they're saying they saw her the day the the revenge letter was mailed at the post office okay all right uh graphologists argued that there was an 80 chance that she was the letter's author so again with the fucking jean benet ransom letter right and we're all like right but then they'd already said that he right but he signed that they said yeah yeah they already said that the cousin was right they're just changing it per this okay and string that was identical to uh what was used to tie up gregory is found in the cellar of the villman's home oh no but it's like does that i don't know who the bag i could have taken it there right that's the that's the one string they sell in this village sure also in the raven's letters he accuses christine of killing gregory so they start to believe what the fucking raven is saying uh because gregory had been conceived so they're saying christina had been knocked up with gregory in an extramarital affair uh and that's why she killed her son which ultimately wasn't true proven to be untrue oh that's fucked up yeah because then they're just floating salacious shit that people love to repeat and keep in mind this whole time if you were alive during the jean benet ramsey uh investigation it is the the fucking media is going out of their bucking minds yeah you know front page glossy bullshit in every grocery store i don't know what they have in france that's equivalent to that it's going on everyone is eating it up and all these crazy theories are being you know just thrown about yeah i think it's a they have one big magazine called perry match and uh it's just pictures of people smoking and then terrible stories like that that's what it is yeah it's there yeah christine is christine ends up getting charged with the murder of her son no fucking way oh because it's this guy's idea yeah he's the the lambert say the king of police he's the french king of police he is the king so the king of police lambert charges christine with this murder of her son based on this evidence places her in a pre-trial detention in july of 1985 in protest she goes on a fucking 11 day hunger strike and is released and it isn't until sorry that works i guess she's pregnant oh no yeah so she's released and it isn't until but they also i think didn't have any like anything to hold her on right uh cut to 1993 it is until 1993 when the case is taken over by another investigating judge finally someone who's hopefully over 50 maurice simon for real that she's cleared so between 1985 and 1993 people are speculating whether or not it's her constantly and he and maurice simon is like does some fucking you know judgy magic thing sprinkle something on her that's like she's never allowed to be fucking tried for this again like oh good makes it so she can never be brought up as a suspect again yeah just pretty amazing that's like isn't that double jeopardy no because she had never been brought to trial oh oh but he was just saying like this is now put to rest yeah you can't bring her up as a fucking suspect again yeah seems pretty decent yeah the mother of the dead child right yeah and like photos of her man at like at this time are heartbreaking there's a lot of photos going on and it's so 80s and so sad okay and then in 2000 the year 2000 you've heard of it the case is reopened when christine's family demands that dna tests are carried out on the fucking stamps that are in the fucking letters yes yeah yes unfortunately there's and there's hundreds of these letters uh three separate traces of dna are found but none of them are identified what for some reason none of these fucking okay not much happens until this past June of 2017. Whoa. Yeah. Okay. So we're both fucking. We're all about 2017. We're currenting this fucking episode. I love it. So in June, 32 years after Gregory's murder, 32 years, no one has been taken into custody for the murder since 1985 when his mother was fucking taken into custody. So no one has even been a suspect. Three people in connection with the case are taken into custody. Whoa. Okay. Ready for this? Yes. So okay. The aunt and uncle of Jean Marie, Gregory's father, and Bernard, the dead cousin, Jacqueline Jacob, she's 72, and her husband, Marcel, is 71, are arrested. No fucking way. Fucking old people. They were like in their 40s at the time? 30, yeah. 80s, 90s. Yeah. 40s. So, okay. It's so fucking confusing. So Marcel Jacob, the husband, the dude, is one of the younger brothers of, okay, it's basically Jean Marie's dad married Marcel's sister. Okay. It's Gregory's great aunt and uncle. Got it. Okay. Um, they're charged with kidnapping and confinement, but not the murder, saying they were responsible for the murder of Gregory since he would not have died unless he had first been kidnapped. So they think fucking this chick Jacqueline, who's now 72, is the fucking mastermind of this whole entire thing. And made Bernard uh, made was the letter writer and the woman, it sounds like a woman. She's the raven. Yeah, she's the raven. But they're all involved and all hate this family. And the day of Bernard actually did the murder, but she was like the distraction and the mastermind. Whoa. This is like the second season of Fargo. Yeah. I mean, it's totally like Fargo. It really is. Because also it's just that like, what for? What are you doing? Like, what is this plan? Totally. And why the kid? Yeah. It's such a sick. It's like to hurt as much as possible. Also questioned are Albert and Monique Vilman, the parental grandparents of Gregory, 86 and 85 years old. So Gregory's fucking grandparents on his father's side, on John Michelle's side, are questioned as well. Like everyone hated John Marie and we're in on this. Even his own parents. I mean, they're questioned. Wow. So the charges against the great aunt and uncle follow a modern handwriting and modern, thank God, handwriting and linguistic analysis of some 2000 letters of the Raven letters and voice recordings that lead police to conclude that the authors are a man and a woman. Okay. More than 100 witnesses are also interviewed. Some 12,000 pieces of evidence run through an advanced artificial intelligence program called Anachron, which sounds fucking so cool that locates potential suspects at given moments and uncovers inconsistencies and statements and alibis. How? I think it's basically like this person says I was there and this person said you were like it's and the pings are from here and puts them all together and it's like whatever they're saying isn't true. There's no way they could have been there because it's basically based on like how we're digitally and kind of in some way recorded at all times. I don't even think that at that point. I think it's just based on statements who said you were here, who said you were there. You said you were here. Oh, that makes sense because they're talking to so many people. So they put them all together and they're like this person wasn't where they said they were based on everyone's testimony. And the scary part, the scariest part about Anachron is that they're also those robots that can open doors now. Did you see that video today? Yes. That bothered me so much. It bothered me all day long. I didn't watch more than him walking because it looked like a spider. It looks like a spider and then there was a part where it turns before it opens the door with a creepy long vacuum cleaner tube. No. And it does this like click click where it moves really fast to one side and it's so unnatural. Like it looks very animal like and then it goes click click and you're like, oh, what do we I don't even know what this is. It's like we want the end days to come. Yeah, we're forcing it quick. Yeah, it's like we're begging it and creating the end days. Yeah. It's like some really smart guy that loves robots and computers also watched the Terminator 2. So many times and he's like, we got to make this happen, guys. But he never saw the beginning of the Terminator, like the first scene in the boardroom. Right. He's like, this all looks great. And he didn't watch the romantic parts because I argue that the Terminator, the first one is one of the most romantic movies of all time. It's pretty beautiful. Yeah. God. And he goes to see his wife and sees her gardening. Is that the right movie? Yes. When he goes and he walks by before he knows like he's gone. He sees something and he's like that. Yeah. Also just you gotta love a guy that keeps a picture with him of the girl that he loves. Can I just tell you that term? I don't know what year it came out in, but it was way too early for me to watch it. And that scene in the boardroom in the beginning when the Terminator just kills everyone was so traumatic for me. I bet. Yeah. No, that's it's it's it's this horrifying, amazing movie. So good, though. Can I tell you a quick can I just do a quick sidebar of Valentine's Day? Always Valentine's Day. That just reminded me the picture thing just reminded me we have family friends named named the Mulkeens. One of my dad's best friends is Kevin Gary and his sister, Marilyn Mulkeen, is the woman. Remember that high school picture I showed you where I'm leaning against a ladder and I have almost a unibrow? Always. Where you look like one of Kelly Bundy's best friends. You look like Kelly Bundy's like why Kelly Bundy got into trouble. That's right. I'm her smoking friend. Yes. So Marilyn Mulkeen was also because it's a small town. She also lived next door to my best friend, Christine Gooden. So she took Christine's senior portrait. She took mine. She took everybody. She's like a really great photographer. And when we were I can't remember where we were one time. She told me the story of how her and her husband, Tom, like got together. They were it like childhood. He was friends with her, with Kevin and with their the boys in there in the Gary family. They were all on vacation at the Russian River. I think the boys were like 14 or 13 and she was like 11 or 12. And I tell the story because Marilyn died. In November of cancer. And it makes me super sad because I hadn't seen her in a long time and she's truly one of the coolest. She was like one of those cool people. Yeah. Of your parents friends were like, oh, I want to talk to her. She's like, I'm going to tell you how it is because no one else is. Yes. Like she really was a legit rad lady. And I'm very sad that she's passed away. But but I still have this story and I love it so much. So she is a 12 year old girl is watching these boys play and roughhouse and they all they they all grab Tom and who is like, you know, her older brother's cute friend and they're about to throw him into the Russian River. And so he pulls his wallet out of his back pocket and he tosses it to Marilyn. He goes, hold that for me as they throw him into the water and she catches it and it falls open in her hands and he has a picture of her in his wallet and they were married for 51 years. And that is my favorite. That's just a little sidebar Valentine's Day story. It's my favorite love story of like when you are a 12 year old girl and they're like a boy the idea that a boy would have your school picture in his wallet like you're the girl I like love and then actually they actually end up married crush the crush you have at 12 years old will never it just never it never burns that bright never again because it's so innocent and it's also so like idealistic like you, you know, it's like when you're 12, you don't pick bad boy. You pick like yeah, it's like oh, he's nice or like he said something nice to me or something or he has freckles or some stupid some dumb shit or he's just in the living room. Sometimes it's that but I love anyway mean to me like my brother. Oh, that's my favorite Valentine's story. I just sidebar do so hard. Sorry, but that was beautiful. Okay, good. Good. I love it. Let's get back. Okay, the Jacob's alibi. So the antichrimes like beep boop bop machine and the old folks the Jacob's Jacob's alibi or quote unconfirmed and unsubstantiated so antichrime is like hell fucking now. Oh, you lying with fucking liars. We need antichrime antichrime when you're in your 40s, you're fucking lying also arrested this fucking Muriel bowl. Remember her the fucking little redhead 15 year old. She's arrested at this point for complicity and murder and non-report of a crime. So they're like you knew more than you were saying at the time. Yeah, and we're finally getting down to cases. However, so she goes on a hunger strike again for a few days, whatever a month after they're arrested. Let's go back. Remember remember Jean-Michel Lambert the 30 whatever the fuck year old investigator who got taken off of the case. Yeah in July of 2017 just a few months ago. He's 65 years old. He's found dead in his apartment from suicide what a plastic bag over his head by 1987 he had been replaced by Maurice as we said and Maurice wrote at the time in his personal notebooks that Lambert had an intellectual disorder and he said I am in the midst of a miscarriage of justice and all its horror about the accusations against Gregory's mother in a suicide note Lambert proclaims his certainty about the innocence of Bernard. but he says he no longer has the strength to fight so at this point he still thinks that i don't know if the mother is responsible or whatever the whatever who whatever he thinks that bernard is not uh not guilty right he can't let go of his own first instinctual theory right yeah uh we also learned several other letters have been sent since the restart of the investigation in june a prosecutor has been threatened with uh death by the raven what the raven's back letters are still being fucking written holy shit by 2014 nearly 3 000 press articles about 50 uh you know papers a tv movie and 15 books have been have been made about this case and it's still ongoing and so we will update you when we find out but that is the case of le petit the affair of the petite gregory the case of little gregory that is so heavy how have we never heard that i've never heard any of that i must have seen it late night in one of those listy things or that you've never heard of and saw this photo of this sweet little boy with this he's so french and cute and sweet and messy little hair and horrible it's just awful well and also just that it sounds like things are so bad so entrenched that people have just went insane like they were surrounded by their family and their competition and their small town bullshit it's like you look at this story like how could this have happened and then this happened and it's so insane and you're like well the same thing happened with jean benet and i'm still fucking casting aspersions and being like it was the brother of course it was this or it was that and then the mom dies of cancer and i'm still like maybe she had something to do with it or her letter the letter looked like her handwriting and yeah we're just we're doing the exact same thing because you want some fucking clarity you just want someone to step forward yes all this other shit has happened it's just same with jack the ripper but you just want someone to come and go we finally have the one we have who did here's the answer the answer clean clear you know not involving 17 relatives or whatever just like who fucking whose plan was this and who did it well i i think and fucking french people please let me know what everyone thinks because i have no way of knowing if everyone's like no what are you talking about everyone knew this person wasn't involved right that i'm saying is guilty i have no way you know i can't tell you i can't give my opinion because i can't fucking understand any of the fucking videos i don't understand half of what's going on half of it like literally there's like five articles in english and like two videos that you can put subtitles on bonjour francais yeah but faster but at a speed of a hundred of asking at the speed of a hundred they're all like i don't understand any of it but i want to know i know so well that would be amazing if people actually have the like insider scoop here's what we think yeah i think what everyone thinks is that the that this great aunt and uncle the great aunt especially is like the tevious fucking matriarch of the family who planned the whole thing including alibis and bernard did it fuck but your own family it's just dark i mean yeah i think it's just like this anger jealousy situation oh are you ending this with showing me those bowling socks again because everything is sad and awful and that's the only light we have in our lives what if i hold up a bowling sock every time things go so so dark into the human existence of that's all i want is a bowling sock steven look at it steven look at the bowling don't get steven was really bent over he's really bent over just now feeling those french feelings and then we just have to remember these bowling socks french feelings are strong longer than regular feelings god damn that's awful i know okay we're back are there updates for this story yes so in 2017 charges filed against jacqueline and marcel jacob and muriel bull were dropped within a year due to legal technicalities in june of 2017 muriel's cousin patrick favor told police that in 1984 her family had physically abused muriel to get her to recant her testimony against bernard muriel has denied this and accused patrick of lying in 2018 she published breaking the silence a book detailing her involvement in the case in it she maintains her innocence and doubles down that the police coerced her into implicating bernard in january 2020 a french appeals court declared muriel's 1984 detention by police to be unconstitutional and because of this statements muriel had made while in custody had to be removed from the case file statements she made while not in custody however like her initial allegations against bernard remain in it in april 2020 monique villman gregory's grandmother died from covet 19 she was 88 during the 2017 investigation investigators alleged that monique was the author of the threatening letter sent to judge maurice simon in 1990 in october 2025 jacqueline under mounting police suspicion that she too authored some of the anonymous letters was formally indicted on related conspiracy charges and as of the latest reporting a french appeals court is expected to decide this month july 2026 whether these charges should be dismissed over statute of limitations concerns and among the documentaries on this case are 2018's the curse of the volange which is french and a 2019 documentary who killed little gregory from netflix and a dramatization of the case aired as a six episode french miniseries in 2021 entitled un affaire francais or 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when you're ready to launch use offer code murder to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain okay so we're gonna end this differently right now right you and i were talking about how i just don't want to keep fucking we end the episode with thing that makes us happy and i'm just gonna keep saying my cats or that my back doesn't hurt and i'm fucking sick of myself right so like we're gonna save this for like what were we gonna either read a thing or well i brought a thing i have a thing okay great i tried to actually do something great and i have a recommendation that made that makes me really happy so like after this episode go watch this thing i'm going to tell you about because this is the worst so great so this is all new we're giving it a shot it's basically we take the film we're putting it at the end yeah because we decided we front loaded we front load everything with all everything we love and are excited about and then we drain ourselves with horror yeah and then it's like what are you like well and then we're staring at each other going what why haven't you gone to the movies you don't you guys don't know that half the time at the end when we have to say a thing we're happy about we have to make steven cut out 10 minutes of us going um i don't know suit k i don't know because it's just so depressing it's depressing but also i think that we are afraid to overly plan we just want to have this be at the most natural conversation possible I don't like the plenty, plenty of like, anytime I come with something in my pocket, it feels fake and clunky. So I always think like when we get there, something is going to pop into my head that makes, you know what I love? And then, but then you're like, I love hash browns. You're like, I just talked about a dead kid. Yes. This feels terrible. It's not enough. It's never enough. This is why Elvis meows at the end of every episode. Yeah. It's because when we did an episode once and we were like, how do we end this? I was like, oh shit, let's do the, like, let's have Elvis meow. Yes. Let's just start talking about something else entirely. Let's have something. Okay. So that's what we're going to do. Mine is, do you want me to go first? Sure. It's not that great. Do it. It's just a good thing that I like. Great. Same with mine. And fluffy. Okay. There's this Netflix show, movie. It's a Netflix movie. It's a horror comedy about vampire roommates called What We Do in the Shadows. Yes, girl. Do you know it? Yes. It's the great. Greatest. It is so good. I have had the hardest time not talking to you about it. It's Jermaine from fucking Flight of the Conchords. Jermaine Clement. And is it Taki Watiki? I don't know how to pronounce that guy's name. I panic when I see it on the page. Tycho Watiti. Tycho Watiti. Look at Steven. Steven, you're hired again. At a lower rate. At a lower rate. It is so perfect. Amazing. It's basically just like, oh my, it's perfection. Reese Darby has a hilarious, we're werewolves, not swearwolves. It's just so good. I want to cry. Reese Darby. I actually one day was sitting staring at my TV like I cannot look at one more true crime anything. Like I really hit a wall. And then I went randomly my DVR recorded Flight of the Conchords, which is almost never rerun. And like all you need to do is binge watch Flight of the Conchords and you'll be happy. I went straight to iTunes. And bought both seasons or four seasons, whatever it is, because I was like, oh, wait a second. I could watch this over and over for the rest of my life and be happy. It's the best show ever. I'm the hip hopopotamus. My rhymes are bottomless. And then nothing. It's the best. There's nothing better. There's nothing. Maybe he did. Maybe he did what? He maybe did. He maybe did what? He maybe did. He maybe did. He maybe did. Also, those posters behind Reese Darby in the New Zealand office, ambassador's office or wherever. There's the are the best. It's perfection. It's New Zealand. What we do in the shadows is an is a is an extension of that. Yes. And I think they're going to bring it to this place we call America and remake it here. Yes. But it's going to be Jemaine and Taika, who's so cute. The other thing is, I want to live in there because they're all hot. They're so hot. They're all all the vampires, except for the really old one. Please go watch it. It's the best show you movie you've ever seen in your. Fucking life. Yeah. If you haven't, it's so goddamn delightful. So that made me really fucking happy. I'm going to watch it over and over again. I told you the time I got to meet the flight of the concords. I opened for them when I very first started stand up again after I hadn't done it for five years. One of my very first sets was opening for the flight of the concords in Denver while they were like in the in their like the shit. The it was the height. I think the show was still on. Yeah. I think it was like maybe their last. They were like touring and shit. I ate it in a. Way. That was music. What were you doing music? No, no, no. I was trying to put a comedy set back together. And one of the main problems was that the microphone was the mic cord was twisted around the mic stand probably one hundred and fifty times like there was no way I was getting the mic off the mic stand. So I just stand there like Stephen Wright and deliver not set up punch jokes like conversational shit. It was awful. I got a terrible. Terrible review in one of their like local weekly papers where they said it should it should have been Kristen Schull because she's on the show and she's a Denver like local. Yeah, it was a horror show. But all that aside, horrible. Kristen Schull. Love you. That's horrible. Look, I did it because I wanted to be around those guys and meet them. No, there's no reason why you shouldn't have done it. But except for that, I didn't have an act. But. They were so lovely. And Jemaine Clement, like in my opinion, we don't have to go on and on about this and we certainly don't have to debate it. But Jemaine's hotter than I think Brett McKenzie is the hottest technically. Yes. But then we like a big guy. Well, also, when Jemaine Clement walks toward you to say hello, thank you for opening the show for us. A wind kicks up indoors and his hair. Blew back. There was a thing that happened where I was standing there like, what in the living fuck is coming toward me right now? I was. He's a vampire. In the knees. Also, like he's a monster. You've seen his David Bowie impressions. Yes. You'll just never. There's nobody ever. It's. Listen, Vince doesn't listen to this podcast. Look and listen. My husband does not listen to this podcast. So it's fine. So let her fly. And there was. We were watching it together and I kept on. I kept almost saying because the guy that they turn into. They're like, yes, that guy's amazing. They're so hot. Yeah, I couldn't do that. It's weird, too. It's weird as American girls. I think to see hot guys that are acting like sweet and innocent. It's such a strange, not of my era anyway. Combination. And then they had like, I'm just going to keep talking about they had like they had special effects that it was a low budget movie. And then these insane special vampire effects. Yes. I'm going to watch it tonight. They just did it perfectly. It was like a realistic. Docu-series almost, but I know it's so perfect. It's called I wrote down the people who eat darkness. That's not it. That is actually a really good book about a Japanese serial killer. Go listen to that, but it's actually called what we do in the shadows. That's right. A different thing. Yes, but similar. Okay. Well, my thing is, I love it now. That's my thing, too. It's that's great. I'm support. I see lotion in your hands. Well, because we were given. Oh, yeah. When we went to I believe this was in either Atlanta or Nashville. Huh? So this was a couple trips ago, so I'm sorry that I don't as I as I always say, someone pointed out to me on Twitter that I'm always like, sorry, I don't remember your name. Sorry, I don't. Whatever. It was Kim. But I'm trying to look on here because I bet you it'll tell me Nashville, Tennessee. Great. We were given a little gift bag from some people and I lost the fucking car. Yeah. But it's from a company called Love Heals Thistle Farms. Yeah. And so this is a company that's in Nashville, Tennessee. They make hand lotions and soaps and all this stuff. It's I think it's there. A lot of it is. There's like a lip balm. Lip balm. We got lip balm, hand lotion. This amazing like I can't stop using it. Body butter. But everyone listen, because there's a there's a thing. And you and I started crying when we read that, like literally crying in the green room when we saw this. All of the products from Love Heals Thistle Farms are made by women survivors. So these are women who these are women who get. These jobs because they have been either they just get out of jail or they were. They are. Had to leave their homes because of domestic violence issues. So they're going to live at this place. Yeah. And they get this career. And they get a job and they get and they make these amazing, beautiful products. My hands are always dry. I have a ritual before every show I put on hand lotion. And if I don't do it, I get I get a little bit weirded out. Oh. Every once in a while. And a mint in your mouth. A mint in my mouth. A mint in the mouth. A mint in your hands. A little hand lotion. This is my new hand lotion. It's the best. Because it's not greasy and it and it's it's curing all of my super dry cuticles. It's amazing. I'm stealing it. So it's actually an amazing product that like smells good and really, really works. And also when you buy it, you are supporting these people who are trying to get out of a bad situation. Don't just want to go. Yeah. Like they're. Yeah. They feel like they have a purpose. Yeah. That's beautiful. And it's they're making they're making a product that could be in. Fucking Sephora. I like. I like this so much better than the fact that Mimi, who's sitting right here, truly does make me happy. But I don't need to repeat that every fucking episode. Look. Sometimes it's hard. Listen. That's gorgeous. I love that. Okay. Let's do that from now on. That's a good one. Well, also, we get so many. And you guys, we talk when we meet you and you get them to us. We talk to you about it. But we are inundated with amazing, beautiful gifts. Incredible. Thoughtful. Hilarious. Creative. Artistic. It's so fun. Delicious. It's hard to. What are other adjectives? We're also traveling. So then we're shoving stuff in our bag. Like I was. I looked around my house because I had actually the card that were that described in detail about Thistle Farms. Everything gets missed. Yeah. I'm just a sloppy mess. So I'm like, I finally grabbed up this thing where I'm like, well, at least this is in my purse. I have this information. We're so lucky. People have been so kind to us and we're so fucking lucky. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Yeah. We have posted these people. We will post I will find that thing and then we'll have Steven post the Thistle Farms because it truly aside from anything else. It's a great product. We should have a. Okay. We'll talk about it later. Make some plans on the show. We should make some plans that I love that. This is so much better. Yeah. Okay. Great. Yeah. Yeah. It just takes five minutes of thinking. That's all we need to do. It's so exhausting. We're going to get there someday. We should. We should make a podcast about it. We should. We should hire a team of secretaries. No offense, Stephen. And we're back. Okay, so renaming this episode, it was originally titled King of Police, a great name in and of itself. But if we were renaming it today, what would we call it? Onslaught of Yaris. Yeah, I mean. I kind of love. And Ryan McBuff. We've got to do Ryan McBuff. Ryan McBuff is so good. It's so hilarious. But then so does Nobody Puts Jesus in a Corner. It's so good. French feelings are stronger, of course. That's perfect. Those are good. Okay, that was this week's episode of Rewind. We're going to say goodbye from the pod loft in 2018. But thank you all for listening. Yes. You guys are fucking angels. Thanks for being here. In the outfield and in the infield. And we appreciate it. You guys are like ghost baseball players in a cornfield. We built. That's it. We look outside. And you came. To her to write us. She said, we built it. She pushed her boobs together. We built it. I love grabbing my tits. Thank you guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis? Want a cookie? Hey, everybody. Here's the thing about other home security systems. They're all designed for after. After. After the window breaks. After someone's inside. After you get the notification. After the police come. SimpliSafe is the first system designed for before. Stopping a break-in before it even begins. That's right. Unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway. SimpliSafe is designed to help prevent the crime before it starts. Their cameras can detect suspicious activity at the perimeter and alert live U.S.-based agents. 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