Rewind: Jack Antonoff | How to Pick the Artists Who'll Define Your Career

What is it that you're doing that keeps these people coming back? You have to find, in life, your person, in your art, your people. And if you find those people, everything's possible. You are in the highest level of creativity right now in the history of recorded music. Look at the Sabrina, Chapel, Charlie thing. What's the fucking lesson? Art is development. The only lesson is find something that you absolutely love and then die for it. I don't care if it takes 15 years to break. Do you feel pressured? There's no historical proof that the more songs you write, the better they get. I think the way you can most write for other people is to just most write for yourself. One trap door to stay the fuck away from is. This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to In The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's icon. And it's back. Since his last visit with us, he produced and released not songs with, but albums with, Lorde and the artists formerly known as the Dixie Chicks, St. Vincent, the 1975, and a few up-and-coming artists like Lana Del Rey and Taylor Swift. He's won producer of the year the last three years in a row, which matches the one and only former In The Writer Is guest, Babyface. And it's not like he's neglected his band, Bleachers, either. They just released their beautiful new album, A Stranger Desired. All of this in just the past five years. In other words, he hasn't really been up too much, but he's in from out of town. And this writer, producer, artist, is one of the nicest people in the business. And the writer is Jack Antonoff. I haven't gotten that yet. I like it. What, nicest people in the business? You think so. I think so. Are there people who don't? No, but I just. Yeah, just waiting to find that out. I probably told this the last time I was on, but Ross is the first person, the literal, not first in the emotional way, like literal the first person that let me come into the room with him and work on a song. First, first, first. I was always in bands. I always wrote and produced with friends. And then there was this barrier to, I guess, the scene or how things are done out here. I don't know how you, I don't know how I would call it, but I felt like I couldn't get in. And then I finally started having some stuff going on. And some, a publisher was like trying to court me. And I was like, well, I really want to write with people. And they were like, check out this guy. And Ross is obviously great, but at that time was already cooking. And we got, they got me in the room. I remember them. This is the first one. And I, and I don't know, I was probably like, definitely very nervous trying to be more confident than I was, but it was my first experience. Yeah. Just getting in a room with someone and writing a song with them, which is a very specific experience. It is. Once you get, I won't say good at it, because as we all know it, it ebbs and flows. But once you get used to it, you forget how bizarre it is. And, and then you, you kind of re-meet people who are just starting to do it. And you're reminded it's such a strange experience. But for me, it's always, no matter what happens, it's Ross. That was another crash course for me too, of being in like a non-studio studio. Yeah. Like one of these places that like, like the term writing room. Yeah. Was never something I understood growing up. Um, cause to this day, like my process is so integrated, you know, it's like when I was a kid, even from my bedroom, it's like, I had all my stuff around and I would write with all the things and all the things would inform all the things. So that was interesting to me to, to, uh, but the, but the LA writer producer scene at that point in my life was so filled with like myth and folklore because two reasons. A, I wasn't a, well, three reasons. I wasn't a part of it. So my mind wandered. I wanted to be a part of it. So my mind wandered. But I also think, um, the way that it actually gets done or the way the sausage is made, I wonder if you agree, but is one of the least like, well, reported on, um, processes. What should people know that isn't, I'm not sure. I guess, I guess the problem is, and maybe this is why it's poorly reported on is whenever I sit down and, you know, and I'm interviewed or talking about process or whatnot, I find that, um, I don't have a good answer for it. And, and maybe you'll agree with this. Cause I find that when the thing's happening, it's just like, there's like a, it's just like kind of like feverish and it's happening. And then we all know this feeling of like, Oh, there it is, there it is. And, and, you know, and, and you can go and pick it apart and be like, this, these are the things that could put it in a better outfit. But like the heart and soul of like getting the song is just sort of like, Oh my God, there, there it is. We were messing around, we were singing stuff at each other. And then there the hell it is. Um, but I think the reason why it's poorly reported on is I think there's like these, there's a large spectrum of how music is written and produced. And then there's these like, sort of like Svengali archetypes, or like good hang archetypes. And it's pretty hard not to fault the press or anything, but it's pretty hard to tell the story without just, you know, it's like Phil Spector or like hype man. And the truth is it's really neither, as you know. but so as someone, before I got into it, I was like, how is this shit happening? How is this happening? I'd read, I'd read the Max Martin stories. I read the Phil Spector, George Martin, uh, you know, like I, I, I knew the stories, but I didn't know how it was happening. Do you now know? Yeah. Same way it happened when I was a kid. People were in a room making a one plus one equals a million, trying to find something bigger than themselves. When I look back at how many times I passed on stuff without what I say, like I salted the soup, but like for sure, you've passed on artists that have turned into something. I see it a little differently though, only because, and I wonder if like you feel this way too. But there's only so much space and I get really protective of myself of like not burning out. I never want to feel like normal in the studio or when I'm writing alone or with someone else. Like I think it's um, like a magic based thing. And so like, uh, I never want to get too like looped into the place where I'm not like super excited to go in or super filled with ideas. Um, so I've had tons of experiences, where someone's like, Hey, do you want to work with this person? And they go on and do something great. But I see it more like, and maybe deep down you do too, like sort of like part of like a meant to be like, well, maybe if I said yes to this, this and this, I also would have burned myself out and then lost out on the thing that really like made me feel like, uh, made me feel myself. Yeah. I, there was a, there was a project that I was EPing when I, um, I, I quit the job because they were all on so many drugs during the experience. Yeah. And I was really bummed about it cause I had to lose a check from, from not doing it. And during those two, three weeks that I had nothing going on, I wrote one of the biggest songs I ever had in like a pitch and like, like a random session. And I was like, that wasn't that, you know, I was really bummed. I lost on like, yeah, but I feel like I'm cash. And I was like, Oh, this turned out to be the best. Maybe. If your goal is to write your, your best music, you can't, you can't lose because you don't know where you, there's no path to find that. And every, every great song has that story. Like no one's like we went in, our goal was to write the best song and we wrote the fucking, like every, it's actually sort of remarkable how every, everything is an accident. The story always starts with like, I got in a car accident that morning or like I got left at the bus stop. The session got canceled and we just went to this place. And then we saw this thing. And then we ran to the there's. And so like that randomness I think is either designed to drive you fucking crazy or on the flip side, it could give you an amazing amount of relief, which is what I like about our work is like, you know, if we're in the business of like building stools and selling them and we're trying to like perfect the model and build many of them and build many of them and then sell them and sell them and sell them. Like that's the kind of thing that you'd have to really like pace yourself or you'd lose your mind. Cause you just want to build more and more and more, but there's, there's no, there's no historical proof that the more songs you write, the better they get. There just isn't. I mean, there's, there's obviously like you have to hone your craft, but, but, but, but there's no proof that the more sessions you do, the better you do. There's no proof that there's one place that you need to be living in. You know, the best songs and artists are shooting out of the most random places in the world. And I've tried really hard cause I'm, I I'm neurotic in my own way and have goals and can get, get buzzy and whatnot, but I've tried really hard to just not lie to myself or even calm myself down, but just continuously remind myself that like I'm here barely controlling it, just sort of grabbing it when it comes to me and there's it's I just like, it's a slot machine and I just have no idea I could, I could get a call from someone I love so much and be so excited and nothing could come from it and then I could be in the shower and have the idea that, But that shit, as we know people, can drive you fucking crazy. well you say that you are protective of me not burning out and you're like but you look like shit but you look like shit you sound like shit for the record for people who don't know you just played the greek two nights in a row i'm like i look like like a like a happy piece of shit right now like that what i i would call myself very satisfied it's how i get on tour like i'm broken but i'm happy how do you uh i don't want to get like this from the studio how do you how if i look at your discography from uh that dixie chick session to now or from the last time i saw you how are you not burning out all the time it looks like you're only working in the studio it's not like those are days of sessions like if you're a songwriter and you wrote all those songs that's one thing but you're you're tightening up every single one of these albums like are you do you work six days a week seven days a week my work i work in weird like it's very well i guess i i work sort of spread like you know i just did san francisco two la shows and we go home i'll go see you for three days a few more tour dates i kind of bounce in and out yeah and then obviously i can work remote too but i i have like a pretty like firm line in my head of like things that give me energy and things that take energy from me um people love talking about um what's that thing everyone talks about like if uh if social interactions give or take away from me i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know you know right uh i think that and and it's and and obviously there's nuance to it but it's quite clear like you know think about a session you had that you loved right and think about how you felt after you know that feeling where you're like you know having a good session with somebody it's not like a good session you get a good song it's like it's like deepens the belief in like collaboration it deepens the belief in like other relationships in your life it's very inspiring and so when you leave it you know that feeling we're like i can't wait for tomorrow i can't wait to get back in oh my god i've found a person on earth i can connect with on the flip side the feeling of a session where you're like i don't want to be here i want to die what what how these people see the world is so opposite to my worldview kind of makes you want to crawl in the ditch um i'm obviously uh lucky but even when i you know before i had anything going on i just i just felt so like i know where i'm supposed to be and and it's so obvious to me if i'm being honest on my gut this work these songs these people make me almost like want to fly out of bed in the morning and if i don't have that feeling then it's like it's not even it doesn't even mean that what that thing that's not giving that feeling is bad or whatever it's just it's not for me and it'll fuck me up i'm really like very sensitive you have um you you have this ability when here you are wondering oh what's it like to like in the la scene you know granted that's probably more than 10 years ago now yeah but like wanting wanting to get in the songwriting world and seeing like oh what's this like a lot of that world is one session with this artist one session with that artist this writer this producer but it's really unusual to get five days in a row yeah let alone diving deep with an artist and then you dive deep enough with an artist where they keep asking you back one do you feel like do you feel the grass is greener when you find when you see these people who write you know song one song here and once on there or um you know and and two what is it that you're doing that that keeps these people coming back well there's definitely moments when i'm like the the deepest you know possible place into an album and i think to myself like wow i've really designed a pretty good album for myself and i think to myself like wow i've really designed a pretty good album for myself and i think to myself like wow i've really designed a pretty complicated life so i obviously have those moments but to me it's like an overarching question of where you feel yourself literally so like i love writing songs i love um writing my own songs i love writing with other people i love producing even if i'm not writing i love my band touring but there's something about the the giant connective tissue for me about all this stuff is i i really um see things in the context of albums and in the context of time periods so um it's not it's not it's not an intentional thing but i i usually i'm just thinking about you know my favorite my the worst albums that you can possibly make which can be a symptom of of you know too much merry-go-round writing is the worst thing you could do is make an album that sounds like you know 10 to 15 different groups of people attempting to get that song that's not an album that is uh uh now that's what i call 15 people trying to get that song and i think that's a really good thing to do and i think that's a really good thing to do and i think once again as as you know and as i know when you get you know quote unquote that song and when i say that song you'd call it a hit you call it the front door of a house whatever it is the thing that draws in that that kicks the tent open a little bit more and you know is the big hello to more people it's never how you think you're gonna get it you know and so i i always let that be something that comes later um it's more like i imagine a body of work with someone and then like a house i've talked about that before what's the front door and then inherently maybe it's because i'm in a band when i'm working on something i think about how it fares in the future i think about the next thing but it's just where i'm valuable like if someone was like if i'll get those calls where it's like we finished the album we don't have a single like i'm not i'm not the guy and that's not a knock on that guy that guy is fucking magic you know you know that that person who can come in i know that i'm not the guy that guy is fucking magic you know you know that that we all know them you know that that that person who can come in and get and see the whole thing and then put it into this is it's wild but but it's just about knowing your zone yeah i mean there's knowing your zone and there's the external part of the music industry that tends to push you like try to push people around and you know when you you've been releasing so many uh so much and not every album has the now that's whatever whatever that's a great reference now that's what i call 15 writers and producers going from that song yeah but not not every album has uh like a single that certainly a lot of them don't have singles that go to radio and still i like i like our you know norman fucking rockwell doesn't have like radio smashes on it um in the way that still was rolling stones like you know top 500 album like you know what um do you do you have the ability to not uh conflate your um you know success commercially versus critically or it's so separate this town specific i mean it's like there's a and r success which is really like a niche you know what i mean like you don't have to dig too deep into history of your favorite artists they all have the story that they were a failure of their label or like you know it it's almost stunning that we still believe some of the myths and the reason why we still believe the myths is because there's a small group of people that perpetuate the myths and that's how they what which myths are you talking about the myths that um album isn't god album is god period always has been there's no period in time that doesn't prove that there's no artist artist band that's existed for a real period of time and changed things and has a real audience that isn't based on albums they don't exist singles are amazing i love singles singles are pathways to somewhere a single without a great album is a long hallway that leads to nothing right so that's a myth um and it's understandable why some people in the industry perpetuate that it's very it's very time-consuming stressful can be very expensive to make an album it's very easy to make a single and service it and chuck it against the wall i always challenge myself and everyone in my community to remind ourselves what are facts or or what are concepts that are being sold to us by the people who benefit off those concepts i've been in a band my whole life i know how touring works touring is completely divorced from anything but what the fuck you do on that stage right there is a reason why you know there's that that great robin dick story at the height of blurred lines i mean it's kind of inside baseball but i think it's inspiring biggest song in the world put up this show and sold 12 tickets not to put take it down right away meanwhile my band at that time that no one's heard of you know we're talking steel train days or whatever you know is doing more tickets than that touring is an entirely separate thing that's unfakable you get a moment but it's really to live at it and then all these you know it's not a streaming phenomenon of like great music getting bigger later that's been happening forever i just i i remember that and i also remember you know what i'm what i'm trying to do and and i mean jesus it's like how many times think about how long you've been doing it how many changes in the industry in different concept remember when radio was god and everything and then this is god and this it's like there's always some person in a system who has a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what works and then when you have a very narrow parameter of what You mean just make something from the soul? Right. Great idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are my favorite A&R people, who there's people I absolutely love who see, I mean, look at the Sabrina, Chapel, Charlie thing. Like, what's the fucking lesson? Artist development. Yeah. Brilliant artists, three very different and very brilliant artists, who for decades or longer have had a vision that they've been growing and growing and growing and all of them have hilarious stories of labels and executives not getting it and mishandling it and trying to push it this way and that way. And then you get this amazing explosion, like the metaphor of pulling the arrow back. The harder you pull it back, the longer it goes. And everyone wants to chat about it on the business side. And it's like, well, the only lesson is find something that you absolutely love and then die for it. That's what it is. And what's interesting about those three examples is only one of them is with the label that they signed with from the beginning. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That through development, a lot of artists sign to a label and it's when they sign to a label that they realize who they're not. You know? Yeah. Like a little culpability on the artist too. It's like that it takes, you know, there's an artist on a label right now that, I keep saying to all the A&R people at that label, I'm like, you guys just need to drop him. Drop him. So he can now have the career he's supposed to have. I got off a major. You know? Yeah. Bleachers went from RCA to Dirty Hit and we've had like a giant lights on moment. You know, the untold story is, you know, there's making art. And that's everything. There's nothing else that matters. There's making the thing. There's playing the thing. There's producing. There's writing. There's all of it. That's the fucking art you're making it. And the amount that the artist mostly, but then even the writers, even the producers, all the other people, the amount of work after making the thing to just fucking protect it, to just fucking protect it, if you're in a big system. I mean, I'm in a small system now and it's a huge relief is, I never put out anything I didn't absolutely love or die for, but I used to have to do like, man hours, hours and hours of work convincing people that it was their idea too. I mean, the level of high school, as we all know that goes on behind the scenes is stunning. It's like absolutely stunning. How important is it for the artists you work with to be part of a system, knowing how difficult it is to, you know, when you're an artist, you can control everything, you know? But when you're a producer and a co-writer on an album, there's a little bit of, you know, most of the artists that you work with are assigned to some major label system. Yeah, but they're so independent in the, within their system. Yeah, like, and also I always think that a good way to consider, you know, I would never work with someone where I'd be worried that if they didn't do it this way, it would be a bummer. So like anyone I work with, it's like, I'm so inspired by their vision that it's just sort of like, which way are they going to steer the rocket ship? I don't care. You know, like it's so, I don't find myself in those situations if I'm making an album with Lana or like the Sabrina album that I worked on. It's like, I just love all of it so much. The things I'm a part of, the things I'm not a part of. I love her vision. I love all of it. It's like, she's just got it. She's in, and I'm a proud, a proud partner there. And that's how I feel with everyone I work with. So I feel with my band too. It's just like, we know where we're going. And if it's a little bit, this way or a little bit that way, you know, call it going with this song first or the tour goes here or the video looks like this. It's like, it's all good because the general thing is moving one way. Speaking of collaborators on the Sabrina album, Amy Allen would like to ask Jack Antonoff, and the writer is, she would like to, she says, nowadays with so much music coming out every fucking day, what's one thing today you think can still make a song timeless? That's Amy's question? Yeah. I mean, she texted it to me. I thought it was going to be more like, what's your fucking problem? Why do you have to make fun of Maine so much? He wants to know what. Okay, so how do you make something timeless? Yeah, in this era when there's so much music. I think there's always been a lot of. Yeah, there's a ton of music. I think the concept of timeless to me is defined by the artist. And so that is a esoteric, magic that just has to happen. Someone expresses their soul, becomes timeless, period. So I can't say how to do it. You know it when you hear it. But I can say that the biggest, I can say one trap door to stay the fuck away from is letting anyone in your ear who's explaining to you what's going on. Or what's, you know, first of all, the great irony of being an artist or a producer or a writer is how can you care what's going on? When something's going on that's amazing and someone's like, this is what's happening, I'm like, congratulations to them. That's wonderful. That has nothing to do with me. Our only goal is to hear or feel something and then express it, turn it into something you can hit play on. And then that's, you know, I'm not going to sit here and explain how something becomes timeless, but I know how it doesn't. And it's a little bit like that Kirk Hammett moment in Some Kind of Monster where he was like, well, doesn't not doing a guitar solo date it to now? Do you know this moment? It's like a classic Metallica argument. They're like, we can't do a guitar solo. Is there dated? And he's like, well, it doesn't not doing a guitar solo date it. And I remember watching that with my band and just thinking like, the whole argument is a nightmare because it's like, how can we sit here as like our own planet and a far off solar system and even give a fuck? And that's why I always think it's funny. These sort of like people who are at like the top of like the tastemaker thing. It's like, but you're still in the tastemaker thing. Like, who cares? All the best stuff just comes from some corner. So timelessness, final answer, Amy. And I love you, Amy. Timelessness comes from the magic place. But you can't get to the magic place if you even care what the hell is going on. It has to be a totally random expression. When you do these albums that sound cohesive in their own worlds, you know, it's like we're, I tell people like, okay, if we're working on an album, we're making a movie and each song is a scene in the movie. Don't bring scenes, don't bring scenes from another movie. Get into this out in this movie. It won't make sense here. Yeah, like Scarface is a great movie, but it doesn't work in the holiday. Yeah, we're just making, it's so random. And that's like real extreme, but totally makes sense. Because I think a lot of artists are like, oh, wait, even within a song, they're trying to write the whole album within a song. Like, no, it's just one scene. You don't need to have, you don't have to satisfy everything right now. But when I work on projects that are more extensive, I'll make sometimes like playlists and I'll listen to all kinds of music that might be within a world to be inspired. What keeps you within, you know, I don't listen to, you know, chemtrails over the country club and listen to Midnight, something they sound alike. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you, but you are the, you know, when it's often just you and the artist in a room, how are you defining that sound versus another sound? It's always the, the, the, it's always this like palette that emerges. So those are perfect examples. Like when we're working on chemtrails, it was like the stories that she was telling and where she was, especially after Norman. And it was this very like specific moment for her. It's like this palette started to emerge and there was like these like, kind of like, like a song like Tulsa, Jesus, this freak for me was a really important, like one of the first things, you know, there's a lot of messing around and then you hear something and you're like, oh, there's that tiny sliver in all of the universe and culture that we want to like dive through because it feels untouched. And there's these like, they were like punchy, but kind of like grimy rhythmic sounds. But then there was acoustics, but then there was this like, really like distonal low end, you know, you can start to actually see what the hell it is, but it comes from magic. And then completely on the flip side, you know, that magic. I remember certain songs like, I remember having that moment with a song called Mastermind on Midnights where there was this like bubbling art and it was very minimal, but then we were doing a lot of vocal production and then it was kind of like shimmering and you know, you just start to get these things where what you feel is, holy shit, that's it. That's the story the artist is telling. That's the feeling of this moment. You know, even when we're not in the studio and we're hanging out, you know, that's the, that's the feeling. I finally fucking hear it. And once you hear it, which you can't plan, you can't say, it's going to be 12 string and this and blah, blah, blah. And then the melodrama is like, that never works. But once you actually just hear it, then you can take a step back and be like, oh, I understand. I understand why these things and then, and then you have at least your starting point. But I, you know, I mean, I get literal in the sense that like, you know, not using the actual same instruments or recording techniques. Compositionally, like the, This new Bleachers album. sounds doesn't sound anything like the rca bleachers albums like it's not like this sounds like yeah i mean this sounds like um you know there's some like sea change meets yankee hotel foxtrot like i'm in like a world that feels like those are big inspirations to me yeah it feels like it feels like you're in a place like i wanted to hear there for for this and so when you're that it's all a growth thing it's like the early bleachers i'm very alone and so so when i'm alone i i can really enjoy the experience of hearing someone try to create the sound of something huge alone i think there's something lonely and beautiful about it so like a lot of early bleachers it's like you can feel me alone wishing i had people around me and now that i do and now the band has grown and grown and grown and there was a little bit of in me of like a fuck you to like you can feel me alone wishing i had people around me and now that i do and now the band has grown and grown and grown and there was a little bit of in me of like a fuck you to like a system i was coming from where it's like you know y'all are gonna think i'm i'm like you think like yeah like okay like i don't stream like so and so and so and so but look at what the hell's happening on the road i'm gonna turn around and make a album that is an expression of our brotherhood on on the road yeah um so there is that little chip that went into it but but yeah it's like it's like the characters in your life um play such specific roles in the music or the same thing with producing it's like relationships i've had for a long time the albums can sound way more um like these incredibly lonely times and being lost in one's thoughts or they could sound like you're in a party or they could sound like you're at dinner with friends it's it's really about capturing almost like the level of loneliness or community me or another artist feels at any given time and that's something that i like to get somewhat literal with the use of reverb the use of of yeah right stacking and like you know for example like is is one person doing all the backups there's nothing cooler than one person doing all the backups but it is sad we don't necessarily hear it that way even if it's a big beautiful pop song when you hear one person doing all their stacks somewhere in your soul you realize that there's one vocalist on this song and they have to play all the characters in their life that's a device whether we like it or not doesn't matter if it's the most major key high tempo pop thing and the second could be the most depressing song the most depressing song the most depressing song the most depressing song in the world but the second you introduce another voice the the loneliness bubble is popped even in the saddest songs that person is no longer alone there are two people in my headphones so these are things that i think about a lot and get a bit obsessively literal with based on how i want people feel when they hear the music nmpa is our lead sponsor yet again what is the national music publishers association what do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway well unlike artists who can be unsigned artists there's a lot of people who can be unsigned artists there is no such thing as an unsigned writer you can be a self-published a co-published or a published writer publishers only make money if songwriters make money so nmpa goes and fights for you they go to congress they go and support the community they fight dsps to get you paid more that's what they do they fight for you and they fight for this podcast so thank you for fighting for songwriters nmpa thank you for fighting for us too okay so i use splice and i'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses splice but if you don't you need to start using splice they have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of but they take care of their original creators in fact they just came out with a beta version of their ai suite unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators every time you use splice's ai tool it triggers licensing events for those original creators so there's not a better company that i can think of right now that you can use where you can use the efficiency of ai and also know that you're taking care of the creators and that is splice yeah that's cool there's there's definitely like uh just going to the new bleachers album again and not that that's why you're here but um the there's like i was thinking that there's some nashville skyline and the fact that it feels it feels live yeah and it feels um unlike those other albums that i mentioned which sound like studio albums it is nashville skyline vibes feels like you could have just gone and been like hey you're playing pianos like i don't play pianos like you are now and you're playing this you're like wait i don't even like that's perfect like you're it just feels like a vibe of friends that just kind of got in a room and played which i think was speaking of the not alone thing that's what it feels like so it's also like that really well you get to a point and i think we all work in this where it's like you want to keep yourself really nervous and it's like i know what this band can do i know how good they can play and now it makes me want to see like like how far we can teeter on the edge like how loose it can get you know when i was young yeah yeah i was all about the band's gonna be so tight tight tight tight and then like you get the band to a level of tightness where it's like well now we got to deconstruct it like where's like the dexys in us you know like that's when it gets really sort of transcendent and wild is playing with people who who have a level of expertise at something and then pushing to an even more uncomfortable place that's why i like playing things and having my guys play things they're not necessarily good at um brings like a fire to the place seriously i i write my best on something i understand the least that's why i rarely write on guitar is because once my fingers touch a guitar i love playing guitar or anything but i'm automatically riddled with all of the knowledge of every song i've ever played every song i've ever covered every friend i've ever had be like oh it's those chords and it's like but you get me off a guitar i'm just humming in my head i don't have the baggage of the chord changes as complicated or as simple as they are i'm just focused on the song bleachers is one of the few artists that you work with that has a male singer what is it is he hot he's he's pretty okay i've heard that i wouldn't say hot he's cute really uh is he like we could go to this before we go to that question though i do like that question um uh you have a personal life during all this stuff yeah how me asking you if i'm hot led you to think to yourself that i got married yeah because i feel like you like you you could be when uh you could be a guy who's just say it ross just say it i just wanted you to be single for this and you're not anymore i didn't want to be single i wanted you to be single for today oh for today yeah for this i thought you remember this phase of my life and i was like you dog i want you i want you to be dirty for today for today only no i don't um i i've i've spent my whole life trying to make relationships work and i finally um found the one that was meant to work but i've always really wanted to it's a similarity there in in a lot of the themes we're talking about collaboration leading a band these things of you have to find in life your person and in your art your people or person um but but uh and if you and if you find those people kind of like what we're talking about of the great sessions everything's possible everything's possible you know like eating better is possible like you know getting on the travel number everything's possible and when you're not nothing's possible um you're just like never gonna get there and uh so you know finding my partner has also in in in this back and forth made my work infinitely better beyond more hopeful than i've ever been do you want to uh build a family with children and stuff with you sure let's do it because in isolation you just said do you want to build a family with you me jackie and uh and you know my kids i just like the the maybe you guys isolate the clapper ross just says do you want to build a family with you want to build a family with random children with children somebody actually said that to me the other day they were like um they're like like i have one uh they were like oh your shoulders sore they're like oh is it from carrying children i said well just mine you know it's just like this weird image it's just like ah like yeah uh just carrying children like is there time for you to do that kind of thing do you i i have more time than people i mean i always i feel i feel like the only people who really understand me and understand that i'm like not that busy um which is why i resent the question from you is people like yourself because you know how i know you know how people work you know how people work and i and i work hard but i'm um there's people in this town that are that are two a day right fucking national there's there's three a day motherfuckers like their people are out i'm i'm very focused and i think um what people are really reflecting on is that uh the work is specific but yeah sometimes it makes me feel a little bad when because when people put that on me i'm like no no you should know i love i love that i like that clarity because i think that the archetype is when you were talking about the extremes um there's the 40 years ago version of a producer and a writer who doesn't know how to define self and i think one of the realizations i've had is, you know, I would, I look at some of these writers, producers, artists who are constantly on the road, constantly in studios, at least what they promote themselves as. And I know they have families. And I used to think that they showed, as workaholics, I was like, man, I wish I had that work ethic. And all they're showing is a lack of discipline and a sadness within this workaholism. And I tend to not look at those people as something I aspire to be. Even if they may have infinitely more cuts than I ever will have. You can see in someone's eyes, usually, if they have a piece in them. But I also think that it really depends. I remember when I was younger and worked with people who had this all-night spirit to them. It really is whatever gets you going. I think the idea that anyone can work in any way is absurd. I do my best work in the morning. Yeah, same. I feel a clarity. What time is morning for you? Whenever it is. Depends where I am in the world. But I define morning as, honestly, before I eat. If something happens to my soul, once I eat something, I feel awake in a way, where if I go to noon or one or something and haven't really eaten, and I'm just more getting out these free thoughts. I obviously don't just work in the morning, but I'm not someone who finds, inspiration at four in the morning, fucked up in the studio, or even just four in the morning, not fucked up. At all. I've had moments, but all you can do is, yeah, we're sold as very few other people. I think it's because there's a mythology to what we do. We're sold so much concept of how we're supposed to be doing it, so much, and it's really just extremely personal. And I've worked really hard. It's really hard to do it in my way. But I do agree that I find that people's understanding of it is sort of like the film and TV version of shooting some heroin, lighting a candle, and writing the best song, or being in the studio for 96 hours straight. You just described rent. Yeah, but no one. I think the reason why we're so poorly represented in the movies is because it's so hard to actually show that moment. It's also really boring. Because it's so internal until that moment. It's so internal. The feeling I get when I hear the thing that sounds like this part of my soul, I don't go like this. I just have the feeling, and I actually go. Honestly, I probably go like. Like that. I start, then the wheels start turning. The only time. There's that clip that Taylor had in her documentary where she happened to be filming the moment we were riding the bridge of Getaway Car, and it became something that a lot of people saw, and I really understand why, of all the clips that have been out there of me in the studio, and it's because it's the only time that I've ever been a part of something, or even really seen. I haven't seen too many examples of this in documentary or not, where the actual moment, the actual moment when we're shouting the words at each other and having that outward, not inward moment of realizing what something is, she captured, and it made sense to me that that became something that. Because that's the moment. That's the dream. That's what people. That's the dream, is that you're shouting at someone else, and you're getting the part in real time, but those are moments. Just moments. Let's talk about the Taylor stuff. There's. There are levels of success, but as people describe where she's at right now, it's bigger than Madonna got. It's as big as, at least, Michael Jackson, and Madonna, and The Beatles, and Elvis, and it's so, like, it's become something just bigger than the artist you met in the beginning, and she was huge then. Being the, you know, main co-writer with her for multiple albums now, or at least one of a couple, you know, do you feel pressure to repeat stuff? Do you. How are you coping with the fame aspect? Do you feel pressure to repeat stuff? No, I just. I feel just joy about. The world is so insular that I feel just nothing but, like, utter pride and joy in what we've done, and whenever we do it again, I'm always, like, thrilled and surprised. But it's also. It's like. Yeah, I don't know. It's very hard for me to. Sometimes it sounds like bullshit or pandering when I'm like, oh, the room is so small, but it really is, and that's where I am. That's where I am all the time. It's where she is all the time. It's, you know, I mean, the discipline of keeping one's life against all aspects normal is also one of the reasons, you know, why there continues to be a wealth of things to write about. But I really am there. So, like, when I go see the show and stuff like that, and it's, like, the most incredible, transcendent, massive thing, like, I'm very much. I have one. I have one foot in, like, the room when it's just me and her, or me, her, and Laura, and that's the perspective I come from, is just, like, oh, my God, look at this. The juxtaposition is crazy to me. So I'm pretty, like, locked in that zone. But I know, yeah, it sounds like pandering or whatever to wax on about how simple and normal it is when it's being made, but it is, and it's really the story of how all the records are made. It's the story of. of me in the studio. Like, there just isn't. There's very few people around. There isn't some overblown atmosphere. And so I'm so focused on that. And then even, like, I draw the same comparison to, like, even, like, this weekend, we were, like, playing big shows. It's, like, the juxtaposition of that and then just being with my band, who are, like, the people I, like, sit next to all day. It's, like, so much of your heart and soul is just there, and then the rest is kind of, like, something that is, like, an energy flying around. Did any of that make sense, Ross? Yeah, I mean, I think some of it's for you, some of it's for them. You know, it's, like. I just stay in my. You know, when you're. When you're with. You end up being with your friends on a bus, your friends in a studio, and you're trying to tell that story, you know there are people listening, potentially. But it. You know, the show is for them. I think a lot of the writing is for them, too, but that's another conversation. I think the writing is kind of for. Well, I think it's, like, a backwards. I think the way you can most write for other people is to just. Most write for yourself. Which is why, you know, if you try to. You know, this is why Taylor's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. She's not. She's just, like, digging deeper and deeper into her story and her soul and her perspective. And it's this belief that people are emotionally brilliant that actually allows you to reach people. It's the belief. You know, the darkest part of this world would be the belief that people aren't brilliant. Right. That's where the. The least valuable, emotionally valuable songs come from. And then the most valuable songs come from a place where you just believe, oh, I can, like, go to, like, the part of myself that's so deep that I would barely want to even whisper it, let alone put it in a song and blast it out to the whole world. That's the through line between all the greats. Her discipline to composition and math, in a way, is so different than, like, Lorde. You know? Like, the way they seem. The way they seem to write. Everyone I've ever worked with is so. I don't know if I could ever. Not disciplined in, like, they're not disciplined, but I'm saying, like, in a sense that, like. Well, everyone I work with. I feel the lineage of the Swedes when I hear Taylor songs. Oh, I don't really. That, like, yeah. Oh, it's interesting. Maybe this is just from my experience in the room, but I feel like everyone I work with has, like, their own, like, internal clock. Yeah. Where it's, like, their own, like, rhyming sequences that just, like, come out in a way that is, like, because everyone I work with and probably why I have such connection, I feel like they're all, like, it's just a little over here. Like, it's, like, it's a little this way and feeling. Just, like, one's lyrics must be completely specific to their life. I like when one's internal clock of, like, how they rhyme, how they choose to fuck up the rhyme, like, you know, is so specific to them. That's why I always sort of get so sad about the idea that there's a way. Interesting. Because just all, you know, how much. How funny is it that there's so many times that people are, like, dissecting songs? Like, one of my least favorite things is, like, when, like, a brilliant classical musician dissects a pop song and, like, explains why it works and it's like, oh, is that why? Oh, really? It has nothing to do with the just completely unfathomable magic of a few simple elements coming together to bring something that feels absolutely of someone's soul. Why don't you do it? Sorry. But. But. But. As they're in a cover. Like, a really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, cool. You know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you, like, how a lawnmower works. Like, I don't fucking know. But I feel that when I watch a lot of these things, which obviously get served to me, and I'm just, like, you know, sitting on a tarmac watching this shit about, like, people breaking down songs, they're always telling you that, like, well, this is weird. well, this is sort of against the rules, and maybe that's why it worked. And it's like, it's always funny. It's almost like the lessons are right there if you just listen to them. And you could look at past charts. You could look at touring success. You could look at just the stuff that resonates. You could look at all these things. But the point I'm making is it's always that person's internal instinct that is more valuable than any sort of proven math. Which is why that takes. This is where you've now ended up in the wise seat in your career? No. Yeah, hell yeah. Oh, fuck me, really? Yeah, because you're the one. I wanted the hot seat, and you said I was in the cute seat. Now you're in the wise seat. And then you asked me if I wanted to have a family. One of the most infuriating things about. No, no, fuck that. You're giving me more wise than I am. You have a peace in your eyes and a calmness. I appreciate that. I'm like a buzzing. Like, you know. There's no way that you, like, you in a room when you've got an artist who comes in who's like, I want to do an album. Like, you need to have somebody who's grounded enough to finish what they started. And that's like, and that's really hard. A lot of people are buzzing around so much that they can't. There's a neon sign in that room that says geniuses finish things. Huh. You know, it's like you can. Um, there's so many. You're around people who fall into this genius category because they finish the projects they start. But, you know, a lot of artists who come in with pieces of ideas and another and they start working on the next idea. If you aren't the one who's like, relax, let's finish this idea. Let's finish this idea. We can come back to this idea because this one deserves to be finished. But it needs that person who's. Helping that artist finish things. And I feel like you feel like like these these projects. I think what's so impressive is that. You do focus on finishing these projects. And not every artist has that person with them helping them. But that's navigating that. That's them. I mean, a lot. It's not to say that they like it just helps to have somebody. You are not buzzing on to them. And that's the next thing until you're done. Well, one way, I mean, I think all I think the genius comes from the work. And then I think the only part that can be learned is to block out everything else. So it's like I've always known, you know, I don't really relate to like not knowing when something's done. Like I have I've always had a gut feeling since I was a kid. I was like, that's it. You know, and same thing when it's not done. You can't. But. I think that. I think that there's. I think that, you know, all artists have this magic in them. And then there's like a protection that has to happen. And that's I guess this is a bit like the sad part where I don't like it when people get messed with. And this is why I keep my circle really small, because there's so much vulnerability. Right. So, like, it doesn't matter how massive an artist is or whatever. Like when you're creating something, it's a house of cards. And the last thing you need is some fucking person coming in there. Who's having a bad day or might not realize that they're projecting something that hasn't haven't doing anything else. Come in and be like, oh, that hi-hat blows. Ooh, like the room will just deflate. And it's like, we'll fix the hi-hat if it did blow. You know, like we'll we'll get like these are not the things that matters. We're like much like much like how a baby isn't totally formed. Like the baby's going to get formed. We're not worried about that. We're worried about creating an environment where the baby can get formed. And. I've had too many experiences, which now I will never let happen, where you let an energy or a person or a voice into a process that isn't protecting it. Almost like like a chemical or something. And to me, if you know, the artist spirit and myself and people I work with is so pure that the protection of the process, if you really just do that. This is why I think great things are made with small groups of people all believing in one thing. You know, like as a writer, I think you are at your best. If someone says, I love your perspective, let's just lock the fuck in. Let's just let's just, you know, because then like it doesn't help the writer or the producer to have that buzzy anxiety of something flying around a million rooms. And it doesn't help. I think the artist to to have a million opinions, it's like the greatest bodies of work are made by like a group of people that all see something the same way. And then like Gooney style, it's like we're going to fucking go for it together. And the more you can have that, all the things that I've ever felt were successful and loved came from like a group of people who just like we believe in each other so much, nothing else matters. And so we like walk together. And yeah, I've had too many things when I was younger and I've learned the lesson just, you know, by playing things or showing someone where because of their experience, they need to. And it's not for everyone. Nothing's forever. It's not for everyone. Go back to the question about why is it, you know, adding to that list, Florence and the Machine, these women feel comfortable opening up around you and you seem to feel confident around these women. Is it by what what what in your life created, you know, I don't know that we can curate our discography. I have no good answer. I get this question all the time. I have no good answer for it. And I don't I mean, I work with plenty of. Men also, they're obviously. Yeah, but I don't know. And every time I get it in a totally noncombative way, I'm always like, I think this is for someone else to figure out because I don't. Yeah, I'm not I'm not I don't I don't choose the things I work on ever. They kind of happen. You know, like every great relationship I've had has literally happened, like met someone randomly. A conversation leads to a thing like even the newest relationship I've had. That has meant so much to me with Sabrina. It's like I've been a fan of hers forever. I was playing a bleacher show. I literally saw her in the audience. I was like, oh, man, Sabrina's here. And then two weeks later, I randomly run into her at this thing where we had a mutual friend that and that led to a conversation which led to eventually like sitting down and talking about music. Like it's so the randomness to it is is what I think allows me to function fully on gut. So, yeah, but but but I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. See, you've won producer of the year the last three years. And, you know, a lot of these things are out of our control. How how songs when songs come out, albums come out, how they're received. You know, it's even it's even out of my control of my own brand sometimes. Like, like, I feel like it's like even within like even within my ear, like even like I'll finish a record. I'll be like, OK, this is it. This is what I want to put out. And then things will happen and vinyl pressing plants or this or that or touring schedules like it's so what we do is so fucking volatile in a cool way. But but there is. But you're not you're now in, you know, I'll say you don't say it, but like you're you're a future songwriter, Hall of Famer. You are in the, you know, you are in the. Just the highest. The highest level. Of creativity right now in the history of recorded music. But who's my first call, right? Hey, let me into the room. I let me in the room and it was and it was sweet to me and I will never say the name. But I had one other session that weekend after you and it was different and it would have broken my spirit if you didn't open the door for me. I appreciate that. Sorry to cut you off. That means a lot. That means a lot. So how do you when you know, we talked about all these people who are on extremes of what the archetype is of a songwriter producer and you don't have to compare to baby face. You guys don't write the same. You don't create the same kind of music. But in this world where there's so much music being released, are there producers that you look to that inspire you? Are you currently? Oh, yeah, very much. Like who? Soundwave is one of my all time favorite producers. I get lucky enough to work with him. I'm endlessly inspired by him. Sam Du is probably my favorite songwriter of all time. And singer. I get I get yeah, I get pretty like laser focused. I get like, you know, but but I love. I think a lot. About I know this is something that's been around longer, but I think a lot about Jeff Lynne in the sense that I find so much of his work with band music and pop music, live instrumentation, synthetic instruments, the way he brings them all together, like odd and subversive, like, like things like smashing together in this glorious way. I'm inspired by his dedication, his production work and his band. There's not a lot of people that I. I feel that sort of connection with, I love a lot. lot of um more of the like wooden organic national producers but yeah but when you say who's like my favorite current producer i the right away think is on wave he just he just has this in his words he says he likes to like i forget his perfect quote perfectly but he likes to like pull the petals off of the flower a little bit and i one time i heard him say that and then now i when i work with him i hear that where it's like he'll you know take the thing that's perfectly great and go and um yeah i guess i guess what it is i just i hear that perspective he has in it endlessly inspired by it and and sam do as a songwriter i i feel um like like i don't know if he would feel this way but i never read a lyric he wrote that didn't feel like like like a like a little beam of light out of someone's like soul um it's almost like an ability of of being anything but just the like absolute the deepest one of the things that's amazing about your production that's also infuriating is the yes ross the thought of you listen to it and you're like oh i could do that because there's not the wall of sound when you're talking about the phil specter stuff it's like the jeff lynn thing it's like oh i could i mean i can do free falling like for sure i can write that song you know it's like i listen to like midnights i'm like oh you know like this is i mean amongst obviously there's a lot of stuff but you know this this ability to make every choice count well that is like that is so that is so amazing to be able to have the confidence to not be like i'm gonna throw everything at this and then make it so you can't tell what instrument is where like that is not that is that is not the music you're doing you're doing music where it's like this synth i want you to focus on this synth right now i'm going to hear this i want you to feel this kick but i want you to focus on this synth while there's a counter melody here it's like it's so thorough in its simplicity and that's makes a lot of what you do so genius and unique to you and that's that to me is just i that that's just george martin thinking which i grew up on listening to endless beatles music and maybe it's like maybe it's the way they like paint with such a big brush with the panning where they show you that so specifically in those recordings but like i just love uh jeff lynn obviously petty it's a similar thing where um there's i i it's actually something that i've become almost like militant about because everyone is on this like quest for loudness which i think is which i think is um the most inside baseball thing ever i have never heard one person in the world be like i love this new album but it's not as loud as this album and like you know because you know what someone does is they turn it up and then they move on with their fucking life you know the way that people hear music and headphones and cars in their house is they put it on and then they adjust it to their liking and then they never fucking think about a bunch of us sitting around and they're like oh my god i'm gonna play this taking a precious precious thing and then shitting on it just to make sure it hits as hard as possible um that's really funny yeah i mean the irony of the i guess well so i it's something i've always loved is is uh space for the listener right um i just did a thing where i was walking through the portal session please please please which is a perfect example i was thinking a lot about elo and abba these vocal stacks in your head that are like beams of like you know like god's rays shooting down from heaven you know like they sound like a hundred vocal stacks right um but they're not you know that song for example is a lead and two doubled harmonies that's five and then there's three really really really quiet uh you know mirrors of the lead that are really just sort of me using actual vocals as reverbs and delays instead of uh plugging them setting them off and running into things so essentially it's not this many but at the most it's four five six it's eight but it really is more like five okay that's that's the entire chorus stack and when i was going through the session i was talking about how the impression of bigness this is the same thing this goes for writing very much too the impression of bigness is so much more powerful than bigness if something is a fact there is no longer any space for the listener right if something is a fact then no one needs to know about it it's just a floating fact like a million facts right we think about our favorite recordings and our favorite songs and very often we don't remember that we're a character in that we don't need to remember that because it's our life and when making something if you push it to the max you are literally creating no space for people like no space for people and if you want to use that as an aesthetic tool that's really cool but um yeah like if i'm putting things here and zeroing things out and and and using things in like minimal ways just to i also like you know if there's a synth line here i want you to focus on i imagine like the person staring at it and then it's like the kick starts to you know take control here i imagine the person like in it and then if like the vocals spread out i imagine the person going like that and i always for me uh i'm not trying to sell this as any kind of like hot take or anything but for me it's it's really important to imagine the listener as like a human being who's like in the sonic space with me not looking at the sonic space yeah do you write and mix with visuals like actually i don't i work with people who do sometimes um i mean when the olympics were going on i'd play that a little bit but i don't i don't i don't have a tv in the studio but i work in studios that that sometimes do it i'm always fascinated with those people who like like to have a a visual white noise no i'm a little like um i'm a little like very locked into the instrument or the screen i think so yeah no no i think i got like a little cocktail of things going on that if i grew up in a different time would have been i mean i was one of those kids like i performed very poorly in school so like i was put on those kind of drugs yeah and then i performed even worse but my music got better because i got like i'm dyslexic and i wasn't diagnosed as dyslexic when i was younger because you would wouldn't be dare be diagnosed as dyslexic when we were younger yeah i think that's the reason why i read intros slowly and why i exaggerate stuff is because i struggle reading it oh i have a very hard time reading so like it was like a compensate the way no yeah and we're of the same generation where it was like if you didn't like devour books you were a fucking moron and i really have a very i'm i can read but i really don't read in a way that um other people who enjoy reading books do it i my mind wanders but yeah when i when i when i was diagnosed with something you know i just sort of like they put me on adderall when i was younger and like i said my grades got worse but then i would go home and i was like i was basically i was like basically a 13 year old on coke i was like and i made so much music and maybe it really helped because i i had like a vs 840 which was a recording system on um not floppy disk but it was like harder yeah whatever a dad no it wasn't a dad it was a zip disk ah yeah zip disk which is a zip disk zip disk it's a thing no one will ever know about yeah in the future um but i would just come over and i learned so much from you know whatever like you know government substance they had me on um i'm gonna name five things you're gonna say what comes off the top of your head okay and then i'm gonna say bye so you can get to your next interview but five oh that's exciting fire i think it's just carbon oxide um okay um five things danger uh albums for god god ross hot singles front door taylor swift the best there is uh electric ladylamb the best there is margaret the best there is well thanks for coming hold on but hold on yeah wait let me just really quick okay one notch further on this game yeah and if anything bad happens you can cut it it's fine so now i don't know if you ever play this my friend calls it first mouth not even words whatever like just open whatever comes out ready ready eyes blotter exactly anything ready give me beard red rent red red okay ready house uh uh big face noses but even sooner oh like just like anything all right i'm gonna put this down let's play this for you okay hold on anything anything anything okay shoes gold interesting right ross tall why did i say that i want to take the kind of that's the ending no no that's that's beautiful i mean you can cut it it's your show you know it's - That's weird, my son is like in the 99% centile in height and it's not from my side maybe i just think i look at him and i think he looks just like i did when i was three but he's really tall the game worked it brought us to a beautiful place of you seeing sort of what you well okay here's a beautiful thing is like um i talk about aging gracefully a lot and i think when people think of that they think about the elders in the business and i think of that aging gracefully as the youth in the business who should look at people who are surviving for a long time and one of the things we first sat down and uh started talking before the the cameras were rolling was how one thing will keep you in this business and that's authenticity yeah that's what we're talking about yeah it's the only currency and we've known each other now long enough and every time i see you i get excited i mean i know we talked about it in that last episode too but like i've seen you out in the wild we've we text every once in a while and i think it's because from the outside i was like ah that person's authentic like we made an authentic song once totally and you know you know we made the second song we made was really important in a time when you know march march came out and then all of a sudden the me too movement happened and that song was used during women's marches in dc like yeah no natalie natalie knew what she wanted to do and like that's incredible you know that's incredible to be yeah you've never i've never seen you out in the world and you pretended like you didn't know me and that means a lot to me seriously people are weird out there i appreciate you i'm excited to do this when you win the next three years in a row all right ross do you think by then you might call me hot am i still gonna be cute to you final final question yeah take it however you want do you want to have a family with kids i could be asking that question yeah it could be someone in the past i was asking you you know what i want to be with me be with you and i want to make kids with you i don't know how that happens last one you ready we can make music ready ready ready ready hand plants nice