Speaker 1And welcome back to the Apostolic Classroom podcast. I'm your co-host, Stephen Gill, joined by my co-host, Andrew Herbst and Jeremiah Zuniga. We are so happy to be back with you guys. And today we are discussing the book of Revelation. This semester on the Godhead has been a lot of fun. We've got to just, it feels like we've talked about, even though the semester has been on the Godhead, it feels like we've talked about a lot of ancillary material and we've got had a chance to go through a lot of interesting conversations about stuff that's certainly still relevant, but sometimes not always thought of with regards to the Godhead. So I've enjoyed that. The book of Revelation, I say that because the book of Revelation is certainly a book that we could easily go down a lot of rabbit trails. We could talk a lot about different theories of eschatology. And I don't, I don't, I could be wrong. I don't think that's what you guys wanted to.
Speaker 2I have a few recommendations. Records that I'd like to play backward.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of how I felt when I was working on like my paper for this section was like, there's so many, I want to address a lot of other stuff, but this is, this is about the Godhead. So I'm going to try and keep my focus narrow,
Speaker 2which I think is, is going to be super fun, especially considering the opening, which I won't read it just yet. I'll let one of you guys read it, but considering the open of the book of the Revelation, um, not, I know this is a brother Herbst, uh, pet peeve, not revelations. So I think that would be, it's going to be great.
Speaker 1Depending on who you're listening to. It's definitely revelations, plural, depending, depending on who's talking, you're going to get some revelations. They're not all going to be biblical, but you're going to get some kind of revelation.
Speaker 2A footnote. This is, uh, this is something I was revealed to me in a dream.
Speaker 1Gosh, that was funny.
Speaker 2That was so funny. Um, you should have that just appear on the screen.
Speaker 1Yeah. That's, that's a, you have, you have that screenshot at somewhere. That is a flex. I'm going to write a paper one day and do that. I'd be like, yeah, you want me with my source? Here's my source. This was revealed to me in a dream. Um, okay. So the book of Revelation, um, I'm going to let, uh, Andrew read to just to kind of kick things off. Um, obviously, um, we can just start at the beginning and kind of work our way through, but, um, I think it's important to just remember for, for our listeners. There's the book of Revelation. I know that like the temptation for a lot of people when they read the book or when they listen to things about the book, they're trying to figure out the meaning of the imagery. There's a lot of people who they, they get fixated on things like the seven vials, Gog and Magog, who are these nations? How does this relate to current events, things of that nature. But if I can, I just want to try and set the tone for the rest of the episode that orienting the listener to the fact that the revelation of Jesus Christ. That the undertone of this is not different from everything that we've discussed in the New Testament to this point about the kingdom, that this is all pointing to something that if I could say it like this, the North Star of the book of Revelation is still the millennial reign in God's kingdom. Like it's still like it is getting somewhere. This isn't just a bunch of, you know, random, like, see if you can figure this out. Here's a puzzle. Here's a puzzle. Here's a puzzle. Here's a puzzle. It has one, it has one theme. It has a track that it's staying on and it's trying to get. The reader to a point. And ironically, that point does very much serve the conversation surrounding the Godhead provided, you know, what you're looking at. So, um, could it, could
Speaker 2it also be said, y'all correct me on this, um, as necessary, could it also be said that the great theme point of this book is that the Lord is faithful to his word, to his covenant and that in, in, in the end or the fulfillment of things, he will, he will be faithful to who he is.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, absolutely. Um, Andrew, if you want to read a little bit and then I'll
Speaker 3kind of, I can just add something as far as introductory comment is that, uh, I think both of you are right. There's so many different avenues to take, and sometimes we do address those in different books, different episodes we've done. This is one that has a lot of side, side roads and everything. So we are going to try to keep it, keep that center focus on who Jesus is and God's vindication, as you were just commenting. And the old Testament revelation is so incredible to me because it, it references, or at least give, gives imagery to the old Testament more than any other new Testament book. And that's actually somewhat of a shocking book or excuse me, shocking fact, because other books in the new Testament are so heavily grounded in old Testament theology and showing what Jesus did to fulfill the old Testament and complete it. If you don't understand the old Testament, as we've been walking through things, we've been trying to look backwards and forwards. What's your word that you use the, was it the reflexivity of the text
Speaker 2reflexivity to, to look
Speaker 3forward to that in the
Speaker 2microphone for our listeners. It's under wraps for now.
Speaker 3Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. So, but, but to, to look forward and backwards in the text to show how to really understand the old Testament and the new Testament, you have to use both and go, go forward and back. And so the fact. That John is inspired of the Holy ghost and he's writing and, and looking at, at the old Testament so much, it's such a cool fact in, in just a really neat thing to keep in mind as you're, as you're working through the book of revelation, but to, to start with verse one, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to show unto his servants, things which must shortly come to pass. And he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant, John, who bear. The record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all things that he saw blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein for the time is at hand. I don't know how far you want me to go.
Speaker 2Even if you just stop there for just a moment, one thing that you pointed out to me, uh, that really, really stands out is that this is one of the only books that opens with a blessing for the reader. Yeah. I think that that's amazing. And another thing that I think is amazing, it, I like looking when I read, uh, scripture, especially for the first time, if I'm reading through a text is I look for the verbs and just try to identify, um, if there is a charge there, what's the thing, what are the things that are happening or being, uh, prescribed that should be happening. Right. And here it says that there's a blessing. Um, but it also says that the reader should keep the things that are written here. And I think that's another thing that's really important. It's, it's one thing to read. It's another thing to, to keep.
Speaker 1Why do you suppose it is the only one that opens with a blessing? Like what is, what's distinctive about this that, um, that the reader readers today should take away from that fact?
Speaker 3It's a good question. I think revelation as Jeremiah. I just mentioned it, it shows the ultimate view of God's faithfulness. It shows his ultimate vindication. It is the completion of his plan. And I feel like we talked about this some time ago. I don't remember what episode, probably multiple, but when we say eschatology, which is the study of the end, it's not just saying, or it should not just be saying the end is in the end of everything or the end times. This is the, the last, the, the last day, so to speak. I really like. I really like how, and there's a few people that talk about this, Michael Vlock is one and then GK Beale, although I don't agree with everything Beale writes, uh, I, I think these two get this point really, really well is that it's the, the completion of God's plan eschatology is the completion of God's plan, the end, meaning the completion of the fulfillment. So what we read in revelation, it ties the whole Bible together and shows how all of these things from the old Testament and even earlier parts of the new Testament. Are now going to be completed when he comes back and those steps that it's steps in the plan that are being completed here. They are, this is the kingdom he's returning with his saints. And, uh, as you mentioned earlier, the millennium, and then the coming of the new Jerusalem.
Speaker 1Do you guys think that the, uh, materials of the book of revelation that deal with, um, because there is so much very, really vivid imagery in the book about, um, destruction in about. Do you think that modern readers, or I guess maybe not even modern, just in general, that some of the dominant themes of the book get obfuscated by, uh, in obsessing over those, those portions, because like I, I, when I talk to people, most of the time when people have questions about the book of revelation or when they want to know what I think about the book of revelation, it's usually about two things. They're asking about, um, the destruction and judgment of the world. Like, is there, they want to know what's literal. And what's not, you know, literal lake of fire, um, you know, is really like this much of the world just going to be completely destroyed. What do you mean by that? Who's the great harlot? And like, they're, they're very much focused on what appear to be. And when I say negative, I mean, what appear to be like the, um, the most sobering passages like throughout it. But when, when I read the book of revelation, the more often that I read it, the conclusion I come to is that that's not, that's not supposed to be the primary focus. It's, it's a. Necessary theme and it's essential obviously to the materials of the book, but that's not really what, what the. focus is the focus is to your guys's point about um the completion of god's plan god's preservation of his people and honestly restoration is like more more than any of that and so like and obviously not to i understand he's he doesn't think anything like us but just to paint a picture of like an example of of of how this um how this comes out with modern thinkers bart airman said this about the book of revelation he said its symbolism has to be interpreted in light of what its first century author and first century readers would have known and thought rather than his hidden messages for christians living in the 21st century i think it's a horrible depiction of god portraying him as a ruthless tyrant who absolutely detests anyone who does not worship him with all their heart and soul who wants not just to crush all opposition but to torture anyone who does not believe in jesus now obviously uh airman's not uh i don't i don't know that anybody thinks of him as like a christian thinker so much anymore as a as an opposer of christian thought who used to be a christian and if that makes sense but he does drive home a point and it is a question that i get asked a lot is that uh in light of all the judgment that appears in the book of revelation what are modern christians supposed to take away from from that and is it really um is it really all that bad you know and i was asked this question recently there was a gentleman i'm having some conversations with that was asking about the literal nature of uh the lake of fire and um you know is this just a is this just a theme of the book of revelation or is it all throughout the scriptures and is there novelty in the book of revelation or is it is it testifying of things that are already written
Speaker 2that makes sense yeah um so i i i think that i think that is right to to the extent that we we should be looking at the context of every text as we look to interpret the text yeah and another another point that you have there i remember being very young and hearing those conversations uh my parents giving bible studies or talking scripture and someone in the bible study almost immediately well i want to know about revelation because that's where like that's the the spooky stuff you know it's somehow we it's probably just human nature have that affinity towards the oddities and if there's something that can be skewed toward an oddity that makes us feel like we have something secret that we know um i could imagine that lends itself towards looking toward looking for something that is unique or a unique interpretation and because there is imagery here i think it also leaves room for that allegorical approach to scripture that is probably creeps in more often uh for some interpreters of this than we would think which is why i think though as we've approached even building towards this point uh and talking staying on that that topic of of who who god is in scripture one thing that really i think helps orient the reader as we approach this is the old testament context and as you were mentioning how often the old testament is quoted alluded to reference in some uh figurative way it it's something i think is
Speaker 3crucial sorry to jump in i want you to continue that thought with quotations i i you you might remember the exact stat i i don't remember how much revelation it is said quotes the old testament but with those the imagery and and and the pulling from the ideas i say pulling it i i mean that in the sense of foundation. We know the spirit is inspiring John and John is writing, but, um, just to reinforce what you're saying, the old Testament is so much in view in revelation. And if you don't have that foundation, that, that, that, that lens to look through revelation is not going to make that much sense. So sorry to interrupt, but I want to reinforce that.
Speaker 2Uh, the, the number that I recall, um, from, uh, I think it's a Barnes chart is 605 references in 404 books. And I say recall, because I just checked. So I cheated. Um, so yeah, it, it, it, it's a, it's a book that unless you have the foundation of the old Testament, it is difficult to understand, or dare I say, make sense of, I don't know if that's the appropriate way of describing, it there. And so one of the things that stands out to me is as we start to read about in the text, the first verse you read was, it talks about the revelation of Jesus Christ. And then you already start getting language from the Old Testament, even as quick as I look at verse seven here, behold, he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him. And they also, which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, amen. So there's already language that starts to come together from the Old Testament. Even reading further, one of the things that stood out to me, I had a apocalyptic literature course, and it was really fun. We got to read a lot of it. And it was really fun to read a lot of it. And it was really fun to read a lot of of apocryphal works and pseudepigraphal works. That's not why it was fun. It was fun because of the conversation we got to have in class. And it was one of those classes where it was a destination class. And the conversations in class, outside of class with the students was a lot of fun. But one of the things that was pointed out was in that first chapter, John sees Jesus standing in the middle of this candlestick. And he's wearing a garment that's reflective of a high priest. And one of the things that stood out is when you walk into the tabernacle, that image that you get is the candlestick, right? And some of those things that are just missed that Jesus here has, he has been our high priest. And as the fulfillment of God's plan comes, it's there because he was our mediator. And so, I think that's one of the things that stood out to me. And I know we discussed this maybe a couple of weeks back with Hebrews, but we only have that invitation into his presence because he made a way. And that's, I think it's.
Speaker 3No man comes to the Father.
Speaker 2Yeah, but by me. Not me, Jesus, quoting Jesus here. So, I think that that's so crucial as we start to talk about the way that we understand Jesus, who he is, the nature of God from salvation is just recognizing that even at the beginning of the book, there are those things and things that we've already discussed from whether it was our exploration of Genesis or Exodus, talking about the priesthood in Hebrews. And then we get here and we see that where it has, it started to come full circle as the fulfillment of God's plan is being outlined for us.
Speaker 3Yeah, because it's the revelation. Of Jesus, who he is, what has been revealed. And walking through this passage with chapter one, you start seeing this is not supposed to be the revelation of the Antichrist or the beast.
Speaker 1And I think that's what I meant. That's what I was trying to get at with the way that people obsess over the wrong materials.
Speaker 3Right, right. And that's a great point.
Speaker 2And I think that, not to interrupt you there, but I think. I think that that's why I was highlighting. It's like, I think we kind of tend towards the spooky just because it's, I don't know if this is the right word, but it's fun. You know, it gives you that like, ooh, that filling.
Speaker 3Yeah. And Brother Kilman, he makes comments about some people know more about Antichrist than they do about Christ from the book of Revelation. But here's the deal. Jesus is in control. He is the one that is in control. He is the judge. He's the one. So anyways, to get into it concretely, still in chapter one, because we can move, we can move forward from here, is John sees a depiction that sounds a lot like what Daniel saw.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was gonna, I didn't know what you were writing down over there. I figured I'd let you kind of address what you're writing, but I definitely wanted to get to Son of Man, Ancient
Speaker 3of Days. Go ahead and take it from there, because I just wanted to start that point because eventually when we get to the end of the book, we're going to get to the end of the book. And I think that's when we get to chapters four and five, you're going to have a lamb that comes in and opens the seals of the book. But even before that, we get this Ancient of Days figure. And who is that Ancient of Days? Well, we see it in Daniel 7 and here in Revelation 1, we find out who that is.
Speaker 1Yeah, so Daniel 7. I'm trying to figure out which verse I want to start reading at, I suppose. We'll start at.
Speaker 3just read the whole chapter yeah i could i could do
Speaker 1that there goes our hour and a half i'll just start at nine so like daniel seven and nine says i beheld till the thrones were cast down and the ancient of days did sit whose garment was white as snow and the hair of his head was like pure wool and his throne was the fiery flame and his wheels i believe feet bottom is what that is referring to or like brass uh we're like fire excuse me like burning fire a fiery stream issued and came forth from before him thousands and thousands ministered unto him ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him and the judgment was set and the books were opened and i beheld because the voice of the great words which uh which the horn spake i beheld even till the beast was slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame and then uh later uh verse 13 skipping down he says i saw in the night visions and behold one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came to the ancient of days and they brought him near before him and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom that all people nations and languages should serve him his dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away in his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed that matters because of in light of what you were just talking about in revelation if we read in daniel seven again the way the ancient of days is described hair like wool um eyes like fire these this is yeah this description of the ancient of days reappears in in revelation but it reappears in another way so if you want to read revelation uh read that uh passage starting
Speaker 3at verse 12 and i speak john is speaking or writing and i turned to see the voice that speak with me and being turned i saw seven golden candlesticks which jeremiah you just referenced and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot and gird about the paps with a golden girdle his head and hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire and his feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace and his voice is the sound of many
Speaker 1waters yeah so the son of man is described the same way that the ancient of days is described and it's it's important for two reasons actually because it'd be one thing if daniel just said something about the ancient of days and revelation just said something about the son of man but daniel tells us about the son of man as well and and the way that the son of man is disclosed in daniel is that king who judgment is going to be given to and he will reign and have dominion forever and that matters because when he gets a revelation and the son of man is described like the ancient of days that everlasting dominion becomes contextualized it becomes it we're talking not just about any other king we're not just talking about a generic king or just just a man or even a great man but we're talking about the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end and uh those passages and at least to my mind um uh they they paint a picture together do you see this in one one and eight that is i think one and eight is the first time that you see the i am alpha and omega um the first and the last you see it again in 111 and then in 117 and 18 and every time when you see this described at 117 and 18 is uh perhaps the most interesting this is the one that says and when i saw him i fell at his feet is dead and he laid his right hand upon me saying fear not i am the first and the last i am he that liveth and was dead and behold i am alive forevermore amen and have the keys of hell and of death and that picture of christ is the first and the last that reappears again like 1 8 111 117 and 18 alpha and omega beginning and end that reappears in the 11th chapter of revelation in verse 17 um the scripture says saying we give thanks oh lord god almighty which art and was an art to come because thou has taken to thee thy great power and has reigned so this very same language that is used for jesus the king the kingly language the beginning and the end alpha and omega first and the last all the same things that are used in the beginning of revelation which i've heard people who try to dilute the divinity of christ they will say well he is speaking on behalf of god but this is not talking about he is he is not being identified or synonymized with god well that becomes bunk by the time you get to the 11th chapter because it is the lord god almighty who has said you are he who was and is and is to come you are the almighty and you reign and so the kingship of christ becomes uh not just uh kingship in an earthly sense not just kingship in a in a limited sense but we're talking about the king of glory we're talking about the creator another
Speaker 2thing that when you talk about the synonymized uh use that language i i really appreciate that too because one thing that i think should stand out to all of our readers or listeners is as you read revelation 2 i don't want to get too far ahead was there anything else that you guys wanted to cover in these in chapter one no okay but i
Speaker 3guess just just to keep building with this idea that we're going to see how you have these two somethings and jesus fulfills both of those things i don't know if that's the route for you i don't know if that's the route for you you're going but we're
Speaker 2going to see this yeah and another thing too that uh chapter two and three i i don't maybe you guys want to say something to this point i don't read those as i think i've heard somewhere that that people have maybe read those as church ages or something like that i don't know if these were letters it's a common teaching even in pentecost i don't really hear to it i don't i don't know the the extent of it i i know i've probably heard that these are letters to churches that actually existed oh yeah at one point and it's so important for us to understand that these are letters that were written to act because it gives us insight into what's being addressed in the the challenges that they faced um but another thing too it also shows i think and demonstrates that these churches had a great deal of from chapters two three they had a great deal of understanding of the old testament as well which to me demonstrates that there was a a canon that they were familiar with because when you read some of some of the text here um one of the things that i think about directly is chapter uh chapter three verse seven it says i'll go back here just a second but it says into the angel of the church of in philadelphia right these things say he that is holy he that is true he that hath the key of david he that openeth and no man shutteth and shutteth and no man opened he's quoting from the old testament so there's the expectation that the reader would have this understanding and as he's quoting from it they'd they'd get what he's what he's referring to now going back to chapter two uh as he writes to the church in ephesus he says unto the angel of the church of ephesus write these things uh or these things that are written to the angel of the he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand he who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks now i think it's very important to the language of uh reading these uh as the same he's really he's referring to what we just read in chapter one jesus who stands in the middle of this this candlestick and then by the time you get to the end of his address to ephesus we should remember who's speaking it's jesus the one who stands in the middle he says here he that hath an ear let him hear what who says the spirit saith unto the churches to him that overcome will i give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of of the paradise of god and so he has already drawn attention to who is speaking to him and who is speaking to him and who is speaking to him and who is speaking to him is speaking jesus who are we supposed to hear the spirit he has synonymized them to what use the language you've
Speaker 3just used same with verse 18 the church at thyatira saith the son
Speaker 1of god yeah yeah and that this gets back to some of our discussions about when we talk about the godhead and the way that it's presented in the new testament i don't think any serious thinker is is trying to deny that this language of distinction exists but what it discloses is that it's not the language of distinction what it discloses is not different persons of god who coexist co-equally it's a disclosure of one god and that one god is seen fully in his son the interesting thing with what you just said about spirit and maybe andrew make a note on that paper it's not on pen make a note for our next episode to bring up that scripture that he just talked about um the he that has an ear to hear what the spirit said because um that's that comes up in a early church father's writing so so um anyway yeah that that to me and to your your point about the the seven churches as well yeah i believe that they're literal um who's that guy that said the danger for most readers of the bible is to find too much meaning rather than not enough is and i think that what happens is there is a lot of imagery that um And that's in the Henry Verkler book. That's, yeah. There is a lot of imagery in the Old Testament. There's no doubt about that. And sorting out what that imagery, imagery has meaning, it has significance. Again, there's no doubt about that. But then trying to superimpose meaning and second meaning and multidimensional form and trying to superimpose that on the text where it's not there is where a lot of Christian thinkers, I think, go wrong. And that's also where like the obsession over symbols of, I was reading the other day about how during the, especially during the fourth century readings of this, you know, people would, they were taking passages like the letters to the seven churches and whether it was seven church ages or it was their immediate geography or circumstances, they were trying to find ways to say, well, like this, this word represents this nation. And this. This word represents these people right now, these, and you know, every generation that's done that has been wrong, you know, and we have it today too. But, but I'm with, yeah, I, yeah, seven churches.
Speaker 3This might be a really good time just to, to point out that your hermeneutic, how you read scripture, your hermeneutic is really going to dictate your view of revelation. And that's one reason why we're, we're not getting off into all of these different rabbit trails, as you can call them on all these issues. And we are trying to keep. This, this main view of, of how Jesus and the Godhead is depicted, because if you are open to allegory, as Jeremiah mentioned earlier, and what you just referenced now, that allegory, that everything can be a symbol. And if you just have this idea, as some people do, that revelation is a book full of symbols, therefore you can maybe make your own symbols in your interpretation. So for, I know that we we've had questions. Are you guys going to hit this about revelation and do this? And that. And the answer is right now, no, because that could be an entire series. I taught eschatology in, uh, in the spring, uh, just this last spring. And there's a lot of things to unpack. So just let it be known that if, if there are listeners in there, you're totally in disagreement with us, just know that it comes down to what is your hermeneutic? Are you open to allegory or are you trying to stick to a, there's a lot of different terms to it, but a plain reading of scripture. Historical grammatical, Stephen, you just taught hermeneutics and you do a lot of writing and different research on hermeneutics too. So just let that be something known that your hermeneutic is really going to dictate your view. So we're trying to keep this view of, of Jesus as central, this focus of Jesus, because when, when we start moving forward, or as we are progressing in this, we're going to see Jesus as the lamb in a second, we're going to see that someone is on the throne, then it looks like the lamb is on the throne too. So, uh, do we want to go into chapter four? Okay. So I remember seeing a comment, you know, cause we, we have some Trinitarian friends that are, are looking and listening to us a little bit and some people leaving feedback. We appreciate those things. We try to approach things in a, in a kind Christian manner. Um, but I remember somebody putting on there, well, we'll see how they handle revelation four and five. And I, I went and, you know, I was reading a couple good Trinitarian scholars on how did they handle this, uh, this passage of specifically revelation four and five, I guess as well, because you, you have, um, this one on the throne, you have the elders and the beasts and there's worship unto the Lord. And, and then there's this, this book, right. Uh, that is sealed. Uh, chapter five, this book written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals. Who's worthy to open the book. There's no one righteous. There's no human that can be five, five. Yes. Yep. My apologies that, that can, that can judge appropriately and righteously and open this book, but there's one, there's one that can. So going from, yep. Going from around five, five there into five, six. And one of the elders say then to me, weep not behold the line of the tribe of Judah, the root of David have prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld and low in the midst of the throne. Okay. I like that in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts and in the midst of the elders stood a lamb. As it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God. And as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God. And as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven spirits of God.
Speaker 1or that there's glory being shared, or you can read it the simplest way, which is to say that this is God with us. This is just telling the story of redemption.
Speaker 3Just a brief point, because I love this about the throne room, is that you have Isaiah and Ezekiel in the Old Testament seeing these visions of angelic worship around the throne, but who is present? It's only angels. But John, he doesn't just see the beasts and angelic beings, he also sees humans. What's the difference? There's this something that happened, the cross, that God made a way through Jesus, the man that died, and now humans can be around the throne and not just angels.
Speaker 2Which I think is so important, because you mentioned it earlier, right? The text shows us the synonymous relation or description of who God is. It describes these activities that God does in synonymous terms. Now, there are points where it's clear distinctions, and there's a point to why those distinctions. What you just raised is very important, because you have Isaiah 6, I saw the Lord high and lifted up, seated on his throne, and you have the angels that are there praising him, worshiping him. Isaiah does not see the humans, but Isaiah also does not see the Lamb. Yeah. So, here he sees the Lamb that was slain and risen, and because there's a Lamb who was slain and risen.
Speaker 1Isn't that in Daniel as well, in the same vision of the ancient days in the Son of Man, where the book is sealed? I believe it's specifically stated in the book that this.
Speaker 3This is looking back to Daniel 7 as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, that we're at a time, like in Daniel, they're at a time that has not yet been fulfilled. In Daniel, it's made very clear. That this understanding will not be open until that day.
Speaker 2And so. Maybe I could just do an alley-oop for some preacher out there, a teacher. What better thing to get up on a Sunday morning and just encourage your people from the pulpit and just say, look, there was a time where this was not realized. Yeah. But because he went to the cross and took on the burden of our sin.
Speaker 3There's a spot around the throne for you.
Speaker 2Yeah. There's room.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah, and that's kind of. There's a song like that. There's room at the cross for you, my God. And maybe that's one of the reasons why it's so easy for now that we live in 2025 and there are these competing theologies. We take for granted that when we read this, the readers of that time would have. That the readers of that time would have had this. They would have been reading it through a theological lens of like. Trying to distinguish persons and bodies and sons and trinities and what. But in reality, the revelation of Jesus Christ here, what it meant to them, if they. When you're reading this and you're seeing Daniel and you're hearing Isaiah and you're hearing. And like the picture is completely different. Like what this meant to them in that time is what it should mean to us today. And so getting back to like how you can misread the book, like you kind of rob yourself. You rob yourself of the true meaning of the text, you know? You know, I.
Speaker 2Just imagine with me, right? You have grown up. Because I am assuming that they're familiar with the Old Testament based on the foundation that we get from chapters one through three.
Speaker 3The readers. The readers, the first readers, the first readers.
Speaker 2And imagine with me, you're one of those first readers. You are familiar with Isaiah's description of what he has seen. That throne room. And then you're familiar with Ezekiel's description. You're familiar with Daniel's prophecy, right? And now you get this letter from John and you start reading it and you're like, oh, yeah, this sounds familiar. And then he sees. And then the hope that you get and understanding that there are things we face in this life. And the Old Testament prophets, these are prophets that were not just these anybody. I mean, we have Old Testament prophets where they get little airtime, right? These were prophets that. They were, to use a term, highly literate. They wrote massive books. These were prophets that preached and had massive ministries. They did not have this revelation from God. And John has written to us. And now we understand that there's room for us.
Speaker 1One thing that even like some of the language of revelation that might appear novel, because we always quote. We always quote it from revelation or it makes us think of revelation. God shall wipe away all their tears. It's like, well, that's in Isaiah. That's in Paul. That's in his epistles. And then that comes out again. These were not novel concepts. This wasn't something new. This is something old.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. There's so. Yeah. We could probably do a whole segment just on Old Testament. I was ready to start preaching. Bro, go for it. I wanted to share just a few comments from some scholars that I was reading. Just so our, you know, good Trinitarian friends. Friends don't look at us and just say, well, you're just a bunch of anti-Trinitarians. I was reading some very well-respected Trinitarian scholars. Grant Osborne was one. I was reading some Richard Baucom. And I was reading some Bill Mounts. He has the NICNT commentary. Osborne has the Baker exegetical commentary. And I think I was reading for Baucom. I think I was reading God Crucified, but I can't remember. I didn't write that one down. My apologies. But God Crucified is a great book. And these are three scholars that look at Revelation 5. And Osborne, he points this out in a few pages, that this passage is about the unity of God and the Lamb. And he stresses that. He says this is about the unity of the work of looking at God and the Lamb and how they are unified. Bill Mounts says, this is on page 133, he says, this is not a literal depiction of heaven.
Speaker 1Of course not.
Speaker 3And that's what we're saying too. Because he's saying this is a vision and this is what Jesus as the Lamb has done. This is what he is able to do. He has the right to open that book because of his death on the cross, his obedience, those things we've talked about in other times. So I'll let other people kind of dig into those books. But even these are very well-respected Trinitarian scholars. They're not pointing to this as a representation of the Trinity. They're saying you have God and the Lamb on the throne.
Speaker 1Right. At the same time. And I think that for oneness people who might be confused about that language still, it's important to keep in mind that, and I had written some of this down earlier today, but when we're talking about like getting to what we're eventually marching to, here's the millennial reign. But in its early, in this early portion of Revelation, the reign of Christ is a fundamental Christian doctrine that, and it remains a function of his sonship. And so like, that's the, that's the other part that people kind of miss is like, lest you be confused about, because I think a lot of people think of after the resurrection, sonship is over. And that's not true. We don't get that from the scriptures. We Hebrews, we can, we can get deep into that, but the ministry of sonship continued after the resurrection and continues to this day. And, and will continue until some of the events that we're getting ready to get into here, that all things are put under his feet and, and that we are made to rule and reign with him and judge the world. And so the reason why I say that is because the presence of distinction and revelation should not give you the impression of, Oh, see, well, because sonship's not just, it's not just about this world. It must be co-eternal sonship. As I will know, it's, it's still sonship still has a role and a function in Christianity. But Paul also, it says that there will come a day in first Corinthians 15. He says that there will come a day when he will be subject unto him who gave him authority and dominion power, that God may be all in all. Now it's interesting that Paul chose those words in first Corinthians 15, because he uses the exact same words to describe Christ in Ephesians four, that the one that descended is the same. Also that descended up far above all heavens in order that he might fill all things. And so I guess what I'm saying there is be patient when you're reading revelation. If you're a oneness person and you're sinning, seeing all this language of what, what you know, this distinction, okay, you got the lamb and you got the one on the throne and then you've got this, you got this King and he's got his vesture. And then it's, you know, keep in mind that what is unfolding here is still a part of the ministry of sonship that that hasn't, we're not done yet. So in the sun is the King. Exactly. Yeah. Messiah. Yeah. The last Adam, you know, the dominion over the world. So do you want to, I don't know what you guys want to do next. Do you want to talk about, um, the preservation of, of Israel or, or the, well, I don't know how far we want to go. I want to go what rabbit shells
Speaker 3we want to probably need to get to the second coming pretty quickly. I would imagine, but I think a really quick comment could be made and going back to Jeremiah's point about God's faithfulness is when you start going in chapter six, okay, the, the four horsemen, all that stuff, you get to the end of the book or excuse me, the end of that chapter, the, the wrath of the lamb has come. And I remember Steven, you pointing out that minority texts in the Greek, so modern versions, which there's, a lot of things to be said about this. that there's even corrections being made there. Jeremiah has pointed that out, but other translations says the time of their wrath, meaning the Trinity. So certain translations are pointing to a plurality, their wrath, but the King James in the Greek there points out it is singular, the Lamb's wrath, his wrath. And what's so incredible about that is as you move forward throughout the book, yes, there are demonic things going on, but it is the angels pouring out God's wrath. It is God enacting some of these things. Why? Because you get this wording throughout several chapters here where it says that a plague would happen or God's pouring out something and it says, but yet the people would not repent. And this is God saying, okay, I'm going to ratchet things down. Another Brother Kilman term, I'm going to ratchet things down that. Things get so heavy. Judgment is here, but not with the intention just to destroy, but with the intention that you have all these, these pagan people, essentially God wants them to return to him. And to me, this is a very biblical concept throughout the whole Testament. This is Leviticus 26. Israel, if you turn away from me, I'm going to bring in plagues. If you want to act like the Egyptians or the Canaanites, I will give you the Egyptian treatment. I will treat you like the Canaanites. It's the same idea here for, for the Gentiles. That judgment is coming, but not just to, to bring death, but hopefully some of them will turn to him.
Speaker 2You know, you make me think, because we spent some time, I don't do that often, but when I do get ready. So we spent some time in Exodus talking about how Pharaoh hardened his heart. He would not hear the Lord. And the result, there are the plagues, right? He hardens his, he hardens his heart. So the Lord sends plagues and the Lord hardens his heart even more. And it was that, I think that conflict of Pharaoh saying, I am King, I am God. I'm the one in charge here, not you. Now we have in, in the old Testament as well, the, the, both the blessings of covenant. And then there are also the curses of covenant that come with that. And if you read the curses, you were, I think alluding to it, right? I'll treat you like the Canaanites, the Egyptians. As we start reading some of the things, the wrath that God pours out throughout the book, it sounds very similar to what we read in Exodus when the plagues happen and the people who would not repent. It's almost like they are hardening their heart to what the Lord is trying to do to pull them back in. And it's not a thing where the Lord is, to kind of go back to your quote from Bart Ehrman. It's not like the Lord is this maniacal God who is vindictive and just bringing judgment for the sake of, of being wicked and being strong and rolling with an iron fist. It is the strongest form of correction that he could use to bring
Speaker 3people back. And the punishments match the crime. Yeah. Because when, when the two witnesses are killed, or the Jews are persecuted, the, the rivers turn to blood. Chapter 16, you look at all these things that the, the, the crime is then matched with the punishment.
Speaker 1As it was in Exodus.
Speaker 3As it was in Exodus. And you go, you go all the way down to the ending of chapter 16. And it's, it's, you see it that the people go from not repenting to now they're blaspheming God. They know who is bringing the wrath. Yeah. And they are blaspheming God. And what is the very last thing that is referenced in chapter 16? They blaspheme God and there is a plague of hail. A hundred to 200 pound hailstones falling from the sky. Why? Yeah. Because Old Testament, the Old Testament says that if you blaspheme God and the king, stoning is the punishment. So you have hailstones coming from the sky as judgment.
Speaker 1And I, and I think that's where people that, people that look at the book of Revelation and see like, oh, that doesn't sound very fair or that seems out of balance or that seems, it's because they fundamentally misunderstand that what we're talking about here is not a veil of ignorance that people are, they, oh, they, they can't see God. They can't hear God. Yeah. Because Pharaoh knew, Pharaoh knew by the time he pursued the Hebrew, there was no, no doubt, of course, that, that the God of the Hebrews had, had brought all of this destruction. And, and, you know, some of, some of what we're saying here too, and I don't know, um, we definitely don't have time to, to go down. A rabbit trail with it, but it is important to, to note that some of what we're describing here, um, it is going to depend on your view of, um, when you read the book of Revelation, what number one, what do you believe about the end times? Um, sometimes people, you know, they characterize it as pre-mid post-trib, whatever. Um, but also getting back to the, the issue of, of some, what is symbolism and what is not, what is metaphor? What is not, what is imagery and your hermeneutics again? Yeah. And, and this, there's a lot of people, you know, there's, this is probably a book on which there's, there's more. Opinions than people because, because of this issue and, and it's unfortunate. That's a case because I don't have those opinions. Yeah. And, and it, yeah, it's in, in, in some cases it's, um, you know, uh, I've, I've, you know, I'm sure you guys have heard some, some wild ones over the years, but, um, so much bonus episode.
Speaker 3Yes. Jeremiah's four crazy ideas.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, and, and that's the thing is so much of the, the thing about the thing about imagery and, and symbols and stuff is, is that it lends itself. To fantastical interpretation. Like it lends itself to fantasy and, and that's why it's so important that you'd be familiar with the old Testament before you read revelation, because that is probably going to be what keeps you most rooted, most grounded, even understanding the King. Like if you haven't read the entire old Testament, I don't think you can make sense of all that is said about the King. You definitely can't make sense of all that is said about Israel, literal Israel. You definitely can't make sense of even the very end at the very, the last chapter of the final few verses. When we're talking, we see this tree, like you're not going to see, you're not going to know any of that. And so, you know, it's, it's just important to, yeah.
Speaker 2One thing that I love too, that you, you just raised and you're, you're really emphasizing here is those chapters of the pouring out of God's wrath. It's a, it's a vindication of the saints. It's a vindication. And there is a, there is the representation of the justice of God. I think almost immediately about Psalm 137, that imprecatory Psalm. I think I've mentioned it before on one of our previous episodes, but there's that text there where Israel is recalling being by the rivers of Babylon, hanging their harps and their captors require of them a song. In imprecatory, this is an imprecatory Psalm, which means to call for, for judgment, for curses. It's a, another way of saying. It's a curse Psalm, but really it's a call for God's justice in an extreme situation, in a dire situation. And here we see where, if you understand the kinds of people that have carried the Israelites away and how they're, they treated people, it is, you mentioned the crime answering the punishment, what the Psalmist is calling for there. I don't even know if it's a fraction of the crime. Cause you have the martyrs crying out, God, when are you going to do something? Yeah. And we get that same language here in revelation that I think we miss the, it's not just the Lord sending judgment and sending hell. It's not just the Lord doing these things. You have the martyrs crying out, Lord, when are you, you have these things and it's very, it's very similar to the call that we find in Psalm 137. And I think it's something that any of our listeners can rest in understanding that in the fulfillment of all things, the Lord will vindicate his saints.
Speaker 1Well, and that's the other thing too, is like when you talk about balancing justice, um, again, like depending on what you believe about the book of revelation, like, okay. So when, when the three of us read it, I think we're all in agreement that we don't see this great wrath being poured out on just people on righteous people and God's people. We don't see that some do though. And so it's, there's just, you got a square circle there. It's like, well, you know, is it just for righteous people to endure this? Well, the questions, and it's so funny to me too, like the same people that generally are the most vocal about their displeasure with God's justice. They say, why would a just God allow these things to happen? They're the same people that are very hesitant and very resistant to the notion that revelation is literal. And it's kind of, it's kind of funny, isn't it? Cause it's like, it's like the very justice you seek. Isn't a book you resist.
Speaker 2Yeah. It's like, why would, why would a just God allow me to experience whatever it is they experience? But then when God responds, why would a just God respond that way?
Speaker 1Yeah. So it's like they're, they're, they're seeking that justice and vindication, but then when it comes and maybe the problem is, is that is, is not that we think God's justice, God's judgment and justice is too harsh. It's that we don't understand. It's not harsh enough. Like, and I, and I wonder about that sometimes it's like the, so much of the evil that's happened in the history. History of humanity and people, you know, they, they, you know, they certainly, you know, can describe it in, in immeasurable terms and, and it's the case, it's the. basis for things like theodicy the holocaust is probably like one of the most primary examples this is is like this just doesn't how could adjust god well it's like well hold two thoughts in your head at the same time adjust god didn't do that but adjust god will repay that it's like that's that's like a different way of reading revelation
Speaker 3for sure yeah god set up and still does set up so many stop signs for people yeah in revelation and they go through every single one of them knowing exactly where they're headed exactly and you know i i had a a good a good elder you know we were talking about some of these things that a good elder asked me once well haven't you ever read the book of acts kind of mocking me a little bit and and i said well i think i didn't respond verbally but but in my head you know i i said in my head i just said well in acts it wasn't god persecuting the church right yeah it was that something that was coming from outside the church that was killing the apostles persecuting and whatnot in acts yes there are demonic things going on okay the beast is in power okay but god is the one having these angels pour out the wrath god is the one causing these things from chapter 6 all the way to 16 chapter 6 says the time of the wrath it's already here yeah right and so it culminates it comes to this high point with his return his second coming and this has struck me i've i've texted you guys and a couple other friends about this when i taught isaiah a year ago now in um last fall going through isaiah and reading about in isaiah 59 you have this divine warrior as he is as he is termed and god begins that chapter isaiah is writing and he says you know i'm looking for judgment there's no judgment truth has fallen in the streets a very powerful chapter you read the first verse you know god's arm has not shortened his ear still hears and you're like wow that's incredible and then you read verse 2 and and he said maybe we reference this uh in our prophets episode but uh verse 2 says but your iniquity has separated you right then it's like oh man but all of this truth all this judgment has fallen there's no one righteous not one he can't find anybody and then you get down to verses 16 and 17 and it says god looked for a man and he couldn't find anyone so he came himself yeah and i know we reference that but to bring it back full circle that it says god came himself and his arm brought salvation and he is going to be clothed with zeal and and he's going to be vengeful then you fast forward a few chapters to isaiah 63 and in isaiah 63 there's this watchman on the wall and he sees a mighty warrior coming he has this powerful stride and this warrior his garments are soaked they're red and the watchman asks you're coming from edom you're coming from this horrible place that hates god's people and the text says over a couple times that he came in fury the warrior says i've come and i have done this by myself no one has done this but me and my garments are red because i have treaded the wine press of the wrath of god right so then with that in mind we've been talking to all of these connections and roots from the old testament when we get to revelation 19 john sees something it's almost as though he's writing through the spirit it's almost like you remember that divine warrior let me tell you a little bit more so i mean i've talked for a long time i've talked for a long time before i get into that you guys have anything to add to that no
Speaker 1go ahead you're the eschatology
Speaker 3teacher i don't know about that but verse i do i teach a class but you know just kind of get out there okay so verse 11 john says and i saw heaven opened and behold a white horse and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true and in righteousness he doth judge and make war his eyes were as a flame of fire and on his head were many crowns and he had a name written that no man knew but he himself he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood this is now drawing from that passage in isaiah 63 isaiah 63 he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and his name is called the word of god and the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses but notice here they are clothed in fine linen white and clean and out of his mouth he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and the armies which were in heaven his mouth go with a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations and he shall rule them with a rod of iron massive old testament imagery from multiple passages ruling with that rod and he treadeth out the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of almighty god and um and he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written king of kings and lord of lords wow so it's that same warrior that came to bring justice that all all of the saints behind him all those on on horses as well their robes are not red because they're not fighting yeah his garments are soaked red because he is bringing god's justice to the
Speaker 2earth here's a here's another uh point for preaching here that i think about we talked earlier about there being room at the throne just before this righteous judge comes there's the invitation to the table there's room at the table and now that the the judge has come now that this divine warrior has come there's room in his army and here's the thing is we don't at the throne we did not have to build the temple there the throne he prepared the place for us at the table we don't have to cook the meal he's invited us to the table in the army we're not going to war we're we're with him as he has won and so there are these uh there are probably more right but there are these three things that we are invited to and there's
Speaker 1room for us yeah yeah and some of this so carrying this this image of the the army with him that carries into chapter 20 with those that were given judgment and those that judge the world and they reign with him and the martyrs the the resurrection the first resurrection that's in revelation 20 again like this this all all of this was not this this was not a novelty to the apostles um first corinthians 6 paul clearly had an understanding when he writes to the church and he says know you not that we will judge the world he said we'll judge angels and it's like well what is he talking about well that only to my knowledge i could be wrong you can tell me if there's an old testament parallel but i believe the only the only parallel to that is revelation 20 and hebrews when he talks the hebrews is quoting the psalmist so i guess psalms hebrews first corinthians 6 revelation never mind there's a lot of ways in the bible so when when he said this now has crowned the quote from the psalms uh man what is man that you are mindful of him you have made him a little lower than the angels you crown him with glory and honor he's talking about who's who did he give dominion to he said unto which of the angels said he at any time say he did not give that dominion and judgment uh what does he say the world to come he hath not appointed unto angels um but he appointed it unto men and and more specifically uh talking about in christ and and then when you get to first corinthians 6 how are we going to judge angels how like we think of angels today is like angels are they're beyond us they're they're above us they're supernatural they're you know they've got understanding we don't have and i'll say right but if you understand that we're going to rule and reign with christ because we're in christ because you know because we are the body of christ because we're his bride because whatever however you want to frame it and and so when you see that in in first corinthians 6 and then again of course in revelation chapter 20 um when he talks about um he said i saw in uh 20 and i'll start at three um he says and cast him into the bottomless pit speaking of the devil and shut him up and set a seal upon him that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years should be fulfilled and after that he must be loosed a little season and i saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and i saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of jesus and for the word of god which had not worshipped the beast neither his image neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands and they lived and reigned with christ a thousand years but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished this is the first resurrection i'll just stop there and just simply to point out and there's a lot there but in 20 and 4 i saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and so that's that's um something that's i think often uh missed you know and especially talking it seems like even the pentecostal sometimes um and you
Speaker 2know what's so interesting to me too is when we think about just to go backwards a little bit here exodus 19 he promised the lord promised if you will be my people i'll make you a royal priesthood a holy nation that's that priest kingship that comes there with it we get that in first peter it's in
Speaker 1verse six there two. I just didn't read it yet, but yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. Like we chapter one of revelation, we chapter one of revelation. It's, it's in a chapter five of revelation as well. So we start to get, he's made us priests and Kings. And if we're, if we're willing to submit ourself to his authority, you mean
Speaker 1we're all Melchizedek? Sorry. No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2It's, it's the thing though. It's, it's, if we're willing to submit ourself to the authority of the king of kings how can you be the king of kings unless there are kings in your kingdom right i think sometimes we read that as like he's a king greater than any king in this world well yes but he also has a people he has made kings he has
Speaker 1made kings and this thousand year period so maybe like andrew if you want to kind of take us through from this the this thousand year period this first resurrection to the end um the way that the portrait because this is probably the most obfuscated portion of revelation um in in most of the the imagery that we have today with eschatology the left behind series didn't help but then you know you get you know even things now with um the way we talk about when we die you know like what we're going to see and who we're going to be and also a lot of this comes from kind of a mixing and matching of different parts of the book of revelation but if you want to take us like from 20 to the end and maybe kind of explain
Speaker 3a little bit more about what we're going to be talking about and what we're going to be talking about and what we're going to be talking about and what we're going to be talking about we're going to be talking about the last maybe five years i feel like god has really pressed this on my heart because it's just such a fantastic thing to to look at and we've talked about so many things that are really when i when when we say millennium we're talking about the messiah's kingdom that and so um we we talked about psalm 2 a while ago you know the the kings of the world will rebel against god and he's going to be talking about the messiah's kingdom and he's going to be talking about psalm 2 a while ago you know the the kings of the world will rebel against god and his anointed psalm 2 2 paraphrasing psalm 2 2 and then it says that god is going to laugh them to scorn verse 6 says i think verse 6 says i have set my king upon my holy hill of zion and then i god is going to say to that king to that anointed one to the messiah thou art my son by the end of psalm 2 it says he's ruling with the rod of iron that's what we just read from revelation 19 and all the kings of the earth are bowing down and worshiping this one on the throne in jerusalem so you have so many prophecies about you know another one i'm probably going too far afield but the nebuchadnezzar's dream that rock comes and smashes all the kingdoms of the earth well when when has jesus conquered the whole world well he hasn't done that yet when is he going to do that it's going to be here and so he will come back and establish this kingdom that all these old testament prophets are looking forward to and even israel as as a nation and so he's going to come back and establish this kingdom that all israel as as a nation and this issue of revelation 20 there are a lot of comments that well the millennium it's it's a spiritual millennium or that the church is the millennium there's all these these ideas and and i'm what is normally called a pre-millennialist meaning that the pre-jesus will come millennium meaning the kingdom he will come and he will start the kingdom he will begin the kingdom and so when we're looking at this and we're looking at this and we're looking at this and we're looking at this this millennium in revelation 20 i think it's incredible because it just fulfills so many old testament passages that if god is to be faithful they have to be fulfilled so when we talk about the davidic covenant and you guys jump in i feel like i'm talking a lot these last no i'll go right ahead but when when we've talked about the davidic covenant from second samuel 7 david's son is going to rule he's also going to be god's son second samuel 7 14 he will rule forever well at every stage of god's plan death gets weaker sin gets weaker to where you have the millennium this thousand year period that's it's about to bring in eternity but there are some things that need to happen first you have david's son sitting on the throne but then also looking back to this issue of the last adam is that you have to have a king god's king you have to have a human ruling the earth the way that adam was supposed to so that's why i love that steven you read it where satan is going to be in the bottomless pit another isaiah reference for a thousand years but then it says after that he might be going to be going to be in the bottomless pit another isaiah reference for a thousand years but then it says after that he might be going to be going to be must be loosed well why must satan why must he be loosed because when you compare what happened in the garden and then you compare the millennium you see that there was no satan at first when he does come in adam fails he fails to conquer the the serpent and there's a reason why revelation keeps bringing up okay he's the dragon but he's just that old serpent and he's not the dragon he's just the right which was the devil because when we get to revelation 20 and it says he must be loosed because that millennium is going to begin without a satan just like the garden but when satan comes back jesus is going to show us what adam should have done jesus is going to show us this is what happens when a true obedient son of god a true obedient man in covenant can rule the way that genesis won how it was supposed to be yeah so i i love that about true eschatology and again to bring in michael vlock and gk beal true eschatology begins in genesis because what happened in genesis is finally corrected
Speaker 1in revelation not to keep belaboring this but this does once again 21 and 6 it says and he said unto me it is done i am alpha and omega the beginning and the end i will give unto him that is a thirst of the fountain of the water of the water of the water of the life freely he that overcometh shall inherit all things i will be his god and he shall be my son it's like so once again the alpha and omega the alpha and omega language never leaves the book of revelation and it's variously used for the lamb the king for god almighty for you get you
Speaker 3know and so in genesis 1 the mandate was to to take dominion over the whole earth and be fruitful yeah and be a son well what is happening in jesus's kingdom it covers the whole earth yeah and and they're being fruitful in spiritual and physical ways so i know the millennium there's so many things we could pull in isaiah and we probably need to keep this this focused but i don't know if you have something
Speaker 2to add to that no no i do just love that that that uh bringing in that focus that high focus on genesis because one of the things that we talked about and i mentioned um a while back was if he was still or is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth then that means god's plan began eschatology begins in genesis yep and now it's realized in revelation right
Speaker 3which is why so maybe to bring this to a point to where people might say why even study this because unfortunately there are some people that love eschatology that ignore large parts of the bible primary themes of it yeah and then there are others that they read almost the whole bible except for eschatology type books if i can say it like that to be truly into eschatology as we've been stating you have to be immersed in all the whole of scripture yeah genesis 2 you have to because by the time you get to revelation 22 it says there's no more curse yeah i kind of
Speaker 1wanted to read like when i get to the when i get to revelation chapter 22 like this this image i get in my head is like absolutely nothing else around pure peace and quiet and you read those first few verses and it says and he showed me a pure river of water of life clear as crystal proceeding out of the throne of god and of the lamb in the midst of the street of it and on either side of the river was there the tree of life which bear 12 manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations and there shall be no more curse but the throne of god and of the lamb shall be in it and his servants shall serve him and then he gets into of course they shall see his faith let's not jump over that but i i really where i get where i get stopped on is this the tree of life yeah is it like how revelation 22 brings this whole thing back it's like what started in genesis with this commandment about this tree that eve is deceived and she takes and adam eats and and it meant this whole thing is messed up it's like it's restoration even down to the smallest detail
Speaker 3you know the tale of two the tale between two trees yeah
Speaker 1i think someone said once
Speaker 3yeah i love it yeah there's a lot in 22 so well i i just to to really maybe bring this high point of i feel like i just said that a minute ago but to to really look at okay how is jesus depicted because we see him as the son of man and the ancient of days we see him as as the lamb the one receiving the the book we see all these different things we he's talked about as a son of god and the spirit all these things well by the time you get to the final chapter of the bible you can ask someone what are you going to see when you get to heaven because there's one throne and that one on the throne it says is they're going to see god and the lamb and the lamb and the lamb and the lamb and the lamb but the crazy thing about seeing god in the lamb he has one face yeah it says because in his face in the face of jesus you see both god the creator and the one that became a man to die the lamb in the face of jesus you see and that's
Speaker 1Verse 4, and they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads, not their name, not their face. And, you know, just because I've hit all the others, I could find 22 and 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments and they that have the right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates into the city. So it's like, again, it never leaves the whole book. It just keeps reminding you.
Speaker 2And that big, that big, that big point has the rights to the tree of, or the right to the tree of life. In Genesis, when, so here, Jesus has conquered the serpent. In Genesis, where Adam failed to do that, the Lord says, pause, lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever. They don't have the right to this anymore. Yeah. Because they couldn't conquer. The serpent. Now, those of us. Yeah, because he has conquered. And those of us who are in him, we have a right.
Speaker 1Yeah. And that really contextualized. This is one of those cases where I mentioned it in one of our previous episodes, but it's really hard to understand what is meant by the serpent in Genesis without revelation. This is one of those few cases where Orthodox Jewish communities read Genesis very different from Christian communities because they don't accept what's written in Revelation. And so there's all kinds of wild. And so there's all kinds of wild fantasy and lore about the serpent in Genesis. But when you read it in the context of Revelation, you know exactly what it's talking about. And also to Jeremiah's point, what he just said about the trees. What is that weird verse about there? Lest they eat and live forever. It's because they didn't have the right to anymore. It's like that. That's the interesting part about that is like, but how do you know that? Well, you read Revelation. That's, you know, and yeah, that, that to me is when you, when you finally get to the end, it's people. You, you made a good point about. There are like two types of Bible scholars. It seems like those who only read Revelation and don't know anything else about the Bible and those that read every book, but Revelation, because they're annoyed by the people that only read the book of Revelation. And I, you know, and I would say throughout my life, I've probably been more on the latter side. I was very, very, I've had good conversations by the Kilman about this and like, and there's still a lot about eschatology. I'm playing catch up too. I mean, it's just been within the last few years. The beautiful thing though, is when you read Revelation with this understanding, it really starts to make sense. Why the scriptures say that he is coming back for those that look for his appearing, that those that love his appearing. And it's, and it's like, well, why, what does that really mean? And when you read Revelation with the context that we've been talking about, it is something to look forward to. It's something to long for. It's something to like that, that, that kingdom is coming. Like that justice is coming in that. Completion of his plan.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. And maybe just to keep building here is Isaiah 27 talks about the Leviathan, that, that great piercing. Serpent that the Lord is going to defeat. Well, you and I were talking about this a while ago. We just started looking at how is Leviathan translated in, into the potentially the new sentiment Leviathan is translated as dragon. So this dragon from Isaiah is this same dragon that will be defeated in the book of Revelation. And what I love. So what you're talking about with the right to the tree, I love that because when Adam sinned, he lost the kingdom. He was God's. God's representative to the earth and he lost paradise. He lost that kingdom. Well, when Jesus says the last Adam, as this obedience, son and covenant, the Messiah, all these terms that he fulfilled when he defeats Satan and fire does fall, fire falls from heaven, consumes the army. Satan is cast into the pit or excuse me, he was cast in the pit before. Now he's thrown into the lake of fire. Evil is now conquered evil's defeated. Well, what? What happens right after that? The kingdom was, was lost by Adam, but now through the victory that Jesus has, has, has brought the new Jerusalem comes down, right? Because the, the kingdom has now been gained or regained, reconciled, as you said.
Speaker 1And it kind of, it sort of, uh, recontextualizes Jesus teaching his disciples to pray that thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as is in heaven. That's so much bigger than just saying, Lord, let miracles happen. Yeah. Like, is it? And that's bigger. Yeah. And that's the way that it gets framed today. I'm not, I don't want to make you lie to that. There's nothing wrong with, with praying for, for miracles, but, um, keep in mind that when, when you say my, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. You are not just talking about seeing supernatural events in, in the earth. You're talking about this established rule. Yeah. You're talking about the end.
Speaker 2Yeah. And I, I don't want to rush without hitting perhaps one of the last invitations that we get to read of. We talked about the. You're being room, right? Uh, revelation 22, 17 says, and the spirit and the bride say, come and let him that heareth say, come and let him that is a thirst come and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely. So the spirit and the bride are saying, come, there's an invitation to, even to those who are, are not in this, there's that open invitation. Because after reading a book where the Lord is, is bringing justice and there is a, I think should be a clear call to repentance and the, the people in experiencing the wrath of God are missing the opportunity to repent. I think it's just an encouragement to preachers, to teachers, to people giving Bible studies, to maybe just our casual listeners who are incredible Christians. There's that invitation for them, for us. For even someone they encounter that we must make sure that we are repented and that we find a seat at the table because there's, there's still room in the Lamb's book of life. There's room for another name.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's interesting too. Like you said, the spirit and the bride say, come. And it's like, it's yet another one of those pictures of like, you know, all throughout, we see this a little bit in the epistles and then definitely in the book of revelation, this portrait of the bride of Christ. And, uh, and we always frame it that way when we're talking and then we get to the end here and it says in the spirit and the bride say, come. It's like, once again, it's, which by the way, is not different from Romans eight. Like I make that point all the time to people is like, this isn't isolated. Like this is, you know, Paul, Paul spoke of the Holy spirit as interchangeable with Christ for a reason. And it wasn't because he didn't understand sonship, you know, cause he's the one that, you know, gives us so much of that, but.
Speaker 3There's one on the throne. Yeah. And we're going to see his face. Right. Yeah. That's good. And so come Lord Jesus. Yeah. Awesome. Cool.
Speaker 1Well, we hit Genesis revelation. Yeah. Well, not every book, but yeah, we do. We did. We did a good job. Probably reference most of them. We referenced a lot. Yeah. Maybe not Esther. No, I've got a way to do some of you. Some of you will get that joke, but you know, it's terrible. Um, all right. Well, we'll see you guys back here. So is there our next episode is church history.
Speaker 2Yeah. But which one? The, the earliest portion of church history. Um, so we'll just be looking at, at. Early church figures that we have, uh, that demonstrate harmony with, with the closest to the new Testament.
Speaker 1Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, cool. Um, thank you everybody for being with us and thank you to truth book co for producing the show and be sure to like, and subscribe if you're not already, that really helps the channel and the algorithms and just kind of helps get the word out there and, uh, IBC online as well, marching forward, Jeremiah, just, you know, plugging away. Um, so, and we'll see you guys back here. here for our next installment.
PodcastTranscript AI