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736: Reuniting Justice & Righteousness with Charlie Dates

93m 10s

736: Reuniting Justice & Righteousness with Charlie Dates

The episode opens with a discussion of Dolly Parton's death and the remarkable breadth of the public mourning. The hosts reflect on how Parton managed to be universally beloved across ideological lines, attributing this to her authentic kindness, extensive philanthropy, refusal to be sanctimonious, and joy in her own flamboyant persona. They note that her faith was personal and unorthodox, yet she avoided both cynicism and self-righteousness, staying true to her roots and her own sense of calling rather than seeking approval. The conversation shifts to survey data on moral self-assessment, showing that older adults report being more satisfied with their moral character while reflecting less on their actions, whereas younger adults are more self-critical and reflective. The hosts discuss how evangelical culture has historically equated extroverted activism with holiness, creating guilt for introverts and narrowing the definition of faithful Christian vocation. The main segment features an interview with Charlie Dates, author of *What Hath Justice to Do with Righteousness*. Dates argues that American Christianity has falsely separated a right view of God from a right view of humanity. He critiques both white evangelicalism's retreat from justice work and the tendency of some progressive activism to pursue justice without righteousness. Using the example of MLK50 and the backlash from younger Black protesters, Dates illustrates the generational disconnect from the moral foundations of the civil rights movement. He also examines Billy Graham's withdrawal from civil rights advocacy as a warning about how fear of losing social standing and economic security can derail prophetic witness. Dates calls for a faith that is secure enough in its convictions to love neighbors across deep differences, and he challenges Christian leaders to prioritize obedience to God over institutional preservation.

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Speaker 1Hey, before we jump into the show, I want to tell you about this quarter's Holy Post Book Club pick. We're reading Charlie Date's new book, What Hath Justice to Do with Righteousness. I interviewed Charlie on today's episode, so you'll hear more about the book soon. But here's what you need to know now. Holy Post Plus subscribers can get a free digital copy of the book, and right now we're offering 30% off of a Holy Post Plus subscription if you want to join us and our community as we read the book together. You can head over to holypost.com slash plus to sign up.
Speaker 2Hey there, it's me, Phil. Welcome to the Holy Post Podcast. I'm here with Sky Jatani. Hi, Sky. Hi, Phil. I've been saying that for how many years? 14? Well, on the air? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I said it for a couple of years before. I hope so. Before that. I don't know that I ever said, I'm here with Sky Jatani before that. But hi, you said hi, Sky. Yeah, I would say hi, Sky. Yeah. Eh, Caitlin Schess. How long have I been saying that? How long have I been saying that? Three years? Ooh.
Speaker 3Oh, no. Like six?
Speaker 2What? No. Yeah, six.
Speaker 1She was first on in 2020.
Speaker 3What? Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Wow. Time flies when you're having fun.
Speaker 2You know, I forgot that you were 18 when we met.
Speaker 3Exactly.
Speaker 2Doing your book tour.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Like, you know, like any good evangelical star youth.
Speaker 3Exactly.
Speaker 2Like a dugger, except her book wasn't about dating and marriage advice.
Speaker 3That one's coming next.
Speaker 2You were a girl. You were a girl. You were a girl. You were a girl on that dugger trajectory. Mm-hmm. Okay, it's time for the theme song.
Speaker 4What's the news that you like the most? Who's your favorite podcast host? If it's breakfast, get your toast. It's Sky, Phil, Caitlin, and the Holy Post. Sky, Phil, Caitlin, and the Holy Post. And sometimes other people.
Speaker 2The Holy Post is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing, what would that be? I'd love to be better at having hard conversations with my kids, my friends, with employees and co-workers. When I know a conversation will be tough, I just get a little freaked out inside. And my own stress level can make hard conversations even harder for everyone involved. What would you love to be better at? Controlling your temper? Communicating clearly? Not letting your emotions get the best of you? Better is a goal defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on global emotional well-being. With thousands of therapists and millions of members in over a hundred countries. It's progress toward being a healthier version of you. What are you waiting for? Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash Holy Post. That's BetterHelp.com slash Holy Post. Faith doesn't only show up in churches, sermons, or theology. It also shapes the stories we tell, the politics we argue about, and the way we understand the world around us. On the Esau McCauley Podcast, Bible scholar, pastor, and author, Esau McCauley brings faith into conversation with culture. Joined by a rotating group of writers, scholars, artists, and friends, Esau explores everything from movies and literature to race, politics, technology, sports, and the stories shaping our lives. These conversations begin with culture, but they lead to questions every Christian has. With wisdom, humor, and pastoral insight, Esau helps listeners see the sacred in unexpected places and think more deeply about what it means to live faithfully in the world. In a culture that often leaves us angry, divided, and exhausted, Esau offers a more faithful way to engage. These conversations will challenge your thinking, strengthen your faith, expand your capacity for grace, and still give you plenty of reasons to laugh. Listen to the Esau McCauley Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. So now that you're getting married, you can continue the Duggar trajectory.
Speaker 3Which is what? Have a reality show?
Speaker 2Quiverful.
Speaker 3Oh my gosh, Phil.
Speaker 210, 20, 30 children.
Speaker 3Gracious.
Speaker 2Little. I love kids. Little Caitlins. I know. We know that. We know that. We missed this last week. This was, there was big, big news last week. It actually ended up being considered bigger news than... I thought it would be, and I thought it would be big news. But shortly after we recorded, Dolly Parton died.
Speaker 5Yeah, that was sad.
Speaker 2Yeah. And it was unexpected, too. It wasn't like, oh, she's not doing well. She's declining. She's, oh, she's in a wheelchair at the Oscars now. Oh, it was like, just, no. Gone. How old was she? 80. I mean, she wasn't young, but she... But not old. She just recorded a message for her fans on camera in full makeup like three days earlier. 80 is middle-aged in the Senate. Yeah. Okay. Sure. We'll let you run with that joke. Sure. Is there anything that has surprised you about the reaction? Because I knew she was popular. I didn't, probably didn't appreciate how universally beloved she was, you know, because I saw immediately people from... Right to left lamenting her departure and praising her. You know, Daily Wire journalists praising her. New York Times journalists praising her. Some of the most liberal people I know on Twitter praising her. Some of the most conservative people I know on Twitter. Christian Twitter praising her.
Speaker 3Crazy.
Speaker 2Did that surprise you?
Speaker 1No. I think there's two things that maybe surprised me. One, it wasn't that she was so beloved. It's that the outpouring has been even more than I expected. And I think that's maybe a reflection of the moment we're in where people are looking for something to really latch on to that is positive rather than divisive. The other, the one thing that did surprise me is that some of the people who have dared to say anything negative about her have faced an avalanche of backlash. Yeah. And you expect some comedians to be provocative and push the envelope. I think Bill Maher... Said something?
Speaker 2Yeah, he said something negative.
Speaker 1Got him just destroyed. So she's untouchable.
Speaker 2Yeah. Okay. So now, obviously, she's really talented. She sold 100 million albums in the top, I don't know, 10 for all artists. So there's that. Amazingly philanthropic. Yeah. She did so many things for so many people. Her Imagination Library has given away more than 300 million books to children around the world. She's helped reduce the dropout rate in her home county by giving money to kids who promised to finish high school with a buddy. And if they both made it through high school, they each got 500 bucks and dropped the dropout rate from, you know, 40% down to like 6% in that. So she's done so many stinking things. She doesn't make a whole lot of noise about it. She put up a million dollars to help research a coronavirus vaccine. Which ended up being the Moderna vaccine. And she was one of the first ones in. She does disaster relief. And yet, she's a country-western singer who never appears without rhinestones and big hair, you know, and a whole lot of makeup. So it's like Mother Teresa crossed with a Vegas, you know, showgirl. Yeah. Mother Teresa of Gatlinburg.
Speaker 3Oh, I love Gatlinburg. I do. I love Dollywood. I love Gatlinburg. But that seems important, right? Like, I think part of the reason she's so universally beloved is all the philanthropic work. Like, it's so interesting to have someone who did so many other things in show business, but when she dies, what people so consistently talk about is what a kind person she was.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 3Like, that's incredible to have all these other accomplishments. And one of the main things people say when you die is like, you were just a kind person. But also, I think the... clothes and the hair and the makeup i think people loved that both some people loved it because they liked the clothes and the hair and the makeup yeah but i think a lot of people liked it even people who otherwise if it was someone else doing it would not have loved it so much was because she was such a kind good person but also she so clearly did it and talked about doing it in this kind of like i i'm doing this for fun and because i enjoy it and it's what i wanted to do and i don't really care what you think about it and a lot of people in in her business make decisions about what they look like based on what other people want them to look like and i think to sky's point about being drawn to a universalizing kind of figure i think people are also drawn to someone who's just like i don't actually need your approval i'm not interested in meeting your standards and it's not in a buck the trend way it's in just like a i enjoy this like i think we're starved for people who genuinely enjoy things instead of being too cool for them and she just was like i wanted hair to look like this i wanted bigger better sparklier and i think especially for women like this is a turn that's happened even in the last 10 or 15 years where a lot of women i think felt pressure to downplay those stereotypically feminine parts of themselves in order to be seen as serious and successful and i think a lot of women loved dolly parton because they were like she's very successful she does very good things she's also like funny full of life sparkly and we all love her and she's like she's like she's like she's like i love her for that and it doesn't take away from what she does yeah and and she's witty and self-deprecating right she pokes fun at it herself i think
Speaker 1Part of her secret sauce is she avoided two ditches. The ditch on one side was cynicism. She's just endlessly joyful, happy, positive. Like you said, really enjoys life, enjoys all the flamboyance of her persona and all that. So she's not cynical, but she wasn't sanctimonious either. She had her causes and things she cared about, but she didn't shove it down your throat. And I think there are some celebrities who do that, not just celebrities. Plenty of us do that. But celebrities who do that, they get a level of notoriety and fame. They use their platform for their cause, but then they make everyone feel bad that they're not on board with their cause. She didn't do that. And I think that combination and also the fact that she was a celebrity of enormous fame and multidisciplinary talent who remained in her roots. Like she didn't go to California. She didn't go to Hollywood. She didn't go to the East Coast, New York scene. She stayed in the South. She stayed a country west. She stayed in L.A. for a while. I know.
Speaker 3She stayed married to the same person her whole life. All of that, right. Like.
Speaker 2Right. Who you never saw.
Speaker 3Yeah, a private person. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2Father James Martin said, I think we saw in Dolly Parton something more than talent, something more than wit, and something more than even charity. We saw holiness. Thank you, Dolly, for helping me to see what it means to be a Christian. Russell Moore said, Dolly Parton didn't need us to love her. And that's why almost. All of us did. There's a lot of conversation, particularly on more conservative Christian Twitter. But was she a Christian? Was she, you know. Yeah, let's get to the real important matter here. Where do we put her? Yeah, where is she today? Where did she wake up?
Speaker 3Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 2The next morning. Dolly Parton spoke about her Christian faith often and in fairly personal, unorthodox terms. She called herself very spiritual, but not. Religious and grew up attending the Pentecostal church where her grandfather preached. She's one of many country artists who embraced faith forward music as part of their brand. She was singular, though, in her insistence that there was no dissonance between what she referred to as her three passions, God, music and sex. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. She was singular, though, in her insistence that there was no dissonance between what she referred to as her three passions, God, music and sex. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. In her autobiography, she wrote about her childhood habit of finding solitude to sing and pray in an abandoned church that had explicit sketches on the walls and her belief that it was a place of seeming. After feeling judged by fellow churchgoers over how she dressed. In a 2016 Vogue interview, she said that she explained every day she asked God to let her say or do something meaningful for someone, letting love pass through her. She pushed back against judgmental Christians. Her own approach to faith, she said, was simply wanting to be loved and trying to love everybody. Okay, so there's some contradictions. There's a dissonance that people are struggling with because she promoted Appalachian culture. She promoted traditional Southern culture. She was also an icon of the LGBT community and refused to judge anyone and somehow maintained complete popularity among both.
Speaker 1That's what I mean. She wasn't sanctimonious. Somehow she was able to do her thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, but she also took positions that conservatives don't like at all.
Speaker 1But they found something to like about her.
Speaker 2But she also said it kind of in a funny way. In 2009, she was on CNN and was asked about same-sex marriage. She said, sure, why can't they get married? They should suffer just like the rest of us.
Speaker 1Poor Caitlin. You're just saying that to her a month out from her wedding.
Speaker 3I'm not worried. Listen, I'm not worried.
Speaker 2So that's six years before. So that's six years before the Obergefell decision that legalized gay marriage. She was advocating for gay marriage.
Speaker 3What I think is telling about that response is not just to Skye's point. Like she wasn't sanctimonious. She does it with like a wink and a nod. It's not totally serious. I think she had a good sense and obviously I don't know her, so I can't know if this had been actually true in her life. But it seems like she had a good sense of what her lane was and what she was supposed to do and what people looked to her for and what would be wrong for people to look to her for. I think one of the problems that we have with celibacy. Celebrities who proclaim Christian faith and identity is that we suddenly make them into spiritual teachers or theological teachers and some of them lean into that. Like it was not that long ago we were talking about James Tallarico and some of the other Christian Democratic candidates and I remember thinking at the time like part of the problem is you can be a Christian in public office. You can be a Christian in Hollywood. You can be a Christian and make music and I'm not going. To hold you to a really high standard of theological truth because you're not a teacher if you step into the role of teacher like if you start instructing people on theology and you're not qualified to do it and I think you're teaching really wrongly I want to I want that to be criticized but what I think Dolly Parton did really well is it seems like she had a sense that she wasn't a theologian she wasn't a pastor she was going to be a Christian the way that she understood it to be she was going to be true to herself and be kind to people and even that response is like the kind of response I've had.
Speaker 1I would respect I would expect from someone who regardless of their convictions just felt like it's not my role to tell you what a Christian should believe about XYZ political issue to that to that and I saw an interview with her recently obviously a recorded interview from years ago where she was talking about how she's an entertainer and she wants to appeal to as many people as possible and she doesn't want to get into divisive issues which is to your point she understood her lane and I think the other side of I wonder. How would people feel about Dolly had she come of age in the last 25 years rather than the end of her career in last year because like a lot of the really divisive cultural controversies of recent years she's so well established by that point it's almost like well it's Dolly who she's not right but if she had been a young person trying to make her way in the last 25 years and all these issues arose people may have cared a lot more about her opinions on this stuff she promoted COVID vaccines.
Speaker 2Right. And not 30 years ago I know during COVID I get it but she was she was already Dolly Parton at that point right yeah okay I think that makes okay and if you have you been to Dollywood no have you been Oh yeah I love Dollywood oh you'd never been to Dollywood I've never been to Dollywood okay yeah I've been to Dollywood do they have roller coasters big yeah oh yeah they invested significantly in some major roller coasters and pink sparkles and good food butterflies. Yeah good food that's made right there Dollywood yeah it's it's it often ranks as the most popular the highest rated theme park in the country in terms of another reason the visitors voting yeah for it so huge huge following is going to be buried there I don't have that answer guy no she's already been buried and it was not there it was a private ceremony okay oh shoot I don't know if they're going to make well where what yeah where where is she buried I don't know. I can look it up but I see Mike knew that he knew that he knew that she'd been buried he was watching for it in 2016 to Larry King she said we're all God's children if you're gay you're gay if you're straight you're straight and you should be allowed to be how you are and who you are in 2011 she publicly apologized after a lesbian visitor to Dollywood was made to turn a marriage equality t-shirt inside out saying at the time that Dollywood was a family park where all families are welcome. So when her park employees got a little culture worry and said no you can't come in with that t-shirt because you're taking the wrong position this is a conservative family park well they're probably worried about backlash from I was going to say yeah other people so she said no no we're all families not just traditional families it's just like she's just full of surprises you know and surprises that would sink other people. Yeah.
Speaker 3Right like a Branson superstar who you know Yakov Smirnoff yeah exact no he's Russian so I don't think he's Branson doesn't even he is Branson yeah he's a comedian I do think I don't think this fully answers it at all I do think some of it is what Sky said of like when she became popular and by the time some of these controversial questions were posed to her she had established herself I do think a lot of the philanthropy makes a difference in terms of if you've done so much good you've done it in such a genuine way it hasn't been a PR thing. stunt. It's like you're really committed to making communities better. Obviously, there are still extreme people, people on the internet, faceless people on the internet that are going to critique you. It makes it a lot harder for reasonable people to be too upset when you're someone that has so established yourself as just seeking the good of communities when you don't have to. That's not your main thing. You could just keep doing your main thing, but instead you're doing all
Speaker 2this other stuff. Okay. I'm thinking of Fred Rogers, another fairly universally praised, beloved, popular culture figure who also took some more aggressive positions than he's remembered for on race relations in particular, but died universally praised. Maybe part of it is the authenticity. Yeah. You know, that you... The more you learned about Fred Rogers, the more you realized that that is who he was on and off camera. And the more you saw Dolly Parton pop up in other places, you realize
Speaker 3she is her. I mean, so many people after she died didn't just say, oh, here's all these good things that she did. They said, my one random green room interaction with her. She was kind and warm and she paid attention to me. Like that goes a very long way. You know, I had a green room interaction with her. With Dolly Parton? Yeah. Did you see my post? Was it with the... No.
Speaker 2It was me and Mike Narocki.
Speaker 3I mean, I figured it was... I've seen a photo of her with Bob.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, there's one with me also.
Speaker 3Oh, yeah. You as you.
Speaker 2And me as me. Yeah. Yeah. Not wearing my Bob costume. Was she nice? She was nice. She was in a big hurry. She had someplace to go. She had a schedule. It was a day where she was at Dollywood and days where she was at Dollywood. And they were doing both introduction of Bob and Larry to Dollywood and also an introduction of Garfield to Dollywood, who was doing a... Okay.
Speaker 6Something or other.
Speaker 2Okay. The cat. The cat. Yeah. Yes. Not the president. No, no, no. He had been there for years. He's buried there. Garfield the cat. And it was Garfield's, I don't know, 30th birthday or something. I forget what. It was Garfield's birthday. And so I was kind of... Like the focus of the stage event was happy birthday to Garfield with Bob and Larry singing happy birthday to Garfield. It was a little weird. And Dolly in the middle of it. That sounds like some kind of... Dream induced by a bad Chinese dinner. Yeah. Right. And they wheeled out a giant birthday cake for Garfield that was in the shape of like submarine sandwiches.
Speaker 3See, this is why I like Dollywood. This is wild and I love it.
Speaker 2Shouldn't it have been a lasagna? It should have, but it wouldn't have read from the audience in a fairly large auditorium that that was lasagna.
Speaker 3I love that. Wow.
Speaker 2Yeah. Anyway, so what do we learn? What can we learn? What can we apply? What can people say? You have a Christian podcast and you're trying to have a... You're trying to help people have a cultural moment. What can we learn? I'm talking like Jiminy Glick.
Speaker 1Yeah, you are. I'm not entirely sure here because I don't think our goal should be to be universally loved. Oh. Oh, that sounds like a good... And not that that was necessarily your goal, but... Yeah. Sounds like a good goal. I do think we can emulate the consistency of her convictions. She was who she was. She looked how she looked. She did what she did. She advocated for who she advocated for and she didn't seem to be totally driven by the naysayers or the people who were against her. She didn't listen to her critics all the time. Otherwise, she probably wouldn't have lived the way she lived. So that's admirable. I mean, I didn't know the woman personally. I admired her from a distance, but what more am I supposed to take from that?
Speaker 2What if I wore more rhinestones and you wore big blonde wigs? I would totally go into that.
Speaker 3Halloween costume? This year? Hey.
Speaker 1Dolly Parton? Wait. We've got some news coming on that front. I'm excited. That we can't disclose yet.
Speaker 2Okay. I'm excited. Okay. I'm excited about that. Well, never mind that. I guess I will be dressing as Dolly Parton this fall. I didn't know that. Yes?
Speaker 3Well, I was going to say, I feel like one important thing for us to learn is that you can't fake that kind of joy and love. One of the reasons that I did not know Dolly Parton, I'm not going to pass judgment on her faith. One reason I found it very plausible the whole time was that it's really hard to manufacture that kind of joy and peace with yourself and love for other people and sacrifice for good in your community. And I've had interactions before with people in public where I sort of just without asking or until I found out later, knew that they were believers because it was just like, you know, lots of people are kind, lots of people sacrifice for other people. But sometimes you'll meet someone that you're just like, there is something really unexplainably warm and kind coming from an inner place with you. And I don't know how everyone gets that way. I don't know what level of sanctification that is, but I think it's good to recognize that you shouldn't try to fake that to be like Dolly Parton. You should seek to grow in faith with God to the point where that comes from you, from a source that you couldn't create yourself.
Speaker 1Yeah. Do you remember after Mother Teresa died? I don't know how many months or a year or whatever, somebody published some of her journals and we find out that she actually struggled with a deep dark night of the soul for decades of her life. I wonder if something comes out about Dolly Parton, where her journals, the very joyful, compassionate, giving person, and then those are all genuine things. But what if internally she had, you know, like a deep inner life that was really tormented
Speaker 2in some way. She wrote like 3000 songs. I was going to say. There's probably some journaling in there. Yeah. And there's a whole song about wrestling with God, wrestling with doubt about whether God listens, is he here? So there's some seeming honesty, you know, and I'm not doubting that. I just, I'm curious. Whenever somebody is
Speaker 1a very well-known public figure, there is always a performance aspect to that. Totally. And she's literally a performer. Yeah. And she loved it. And she loved it. And she was really gifted at it. You know, there's a whole lot more depth behind that. And I'm just curious. Some of that might come out now that she's gone.
Speaker 2Well, that would be interesting. It's very clear that she was bright. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And just because some of her comebacks. Right. She was sharp. Yeah. She was really, really sharp and really, really quick-witted. And someone said, does it offend you when people assume you're a dumb blonde? And she said, no, it doesn't offend me because I know I'm not dumb and I'm not a blonde.
Speaker 1You know, this is the other thing. There are some celebrities out there or well-known figures. And I mean, in the Christian world, I've met a lot of these people because of my prior work. But sometimes you meet them and you realize you are actually not as good as the size of your influence. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, how did you get so much influence when you're kind of a knucklehead? Yeah. Really? And then there are other people, and I think Dolly is probably this, where you go, oh, no, she deserves every bit of the influence. Right. The real deal. She is as intelligent and gifted and witty and savvy as all, like she is, I totally understand why she had the influence and magnitude of her career that she did. And then there's some people you meet and you're like, why were you never a big deal? Because you're amazing. Right.
Speaker 2Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's because they couldn't sing. That's why, if you can sing, you can pull it off. Holy Post is sponsored by Sundays for Dogs. We love our doggie. You love your doggie. We want to keep them happy and healthy and we have to feed them something. Reading the ingredients list on a typical bag of dog food is a little frightening. Sundays for Dogs is different. It's human grade, real food you'd feel good eating yourself. Sunday's recipes contain 80% or more all natural meat, roughly twice the meat content of some leading frozen brands. Plus nutrient rich ingredients like kale, ginger, and blueberries, gently air dried rather than exposed to high heat. No fillers, no synthetic additives, no chemicals, just simple complete nutrition. And the best part? It's easy. No first aid kit. You don't need a food processor. It's easy. No fridge, no freezer, no prep, no mess. Just scoop and serve. You get the quality of a home cooked meal with the ease of kibble. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to Sundays for Dogs dot com slash Holy Post and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use code Holy Post at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundays for Dogs dot com slash Holy Post. Sundays for Dogs dot com slash Holy Post. Or use code Holy Post at checkout. Holy Post is sponsored by Tyndale Publishers. If you've ever wished for a Bible that is both beautiful to hold and a joy to read every day, I'd love to tell you about the NLT Select Large Print Thin Line Reference Bible. It's thoughtfully crafted with premium goatskin leather, a durable Smith sewn binding, and edge lined construction so it's made to last for years of reading and study. And even with its generous ten and a quarter point large print, it is surprisingly thin and easy to carry. Inside you'll find the New Living Translation, which is trusted for its balance of accuracy, accuracy, and readability, making it easy to understand without losing the meaning of the original text. Plus, it's filament enabled. Just scan any page number with the free Filament Bible app to instantly access thousands of study notes, videos, maps, devotionals, and other resources, all connected to the passage you're reading. If you're looking for a Bible you'll enjoy opening every day, and one that is built to last, learn more at Tyndale dot life slash NLT Select. When do we become the person we ought to be? What age? What age? Skye, when did you become the person you morally... Morally? You've added a big qualifier on there. Morally. Ryan Burge is looking at some new data. He's always looking at data. Oh, you got to give it to Ryan. They asked the question, how close do you feel you are to being the kind of person you ought to be, morally speaking? And they discovered there's a distinct age effect on the question when it comes to people reflecting on their moral character. Among the youngest adults, a significant portion, 38%, say they are very far or somewhat far from being the person they ought to be, morally. But when you go to people that are 55 or older, instead of 38% saying they're far, just 6% say they're far. About half of them say they're pretty close or already there. Older folks seem pretty content with the person they've become. That's interesting. Huh? They also asked, how often do you make a deliberate effort to improve your character? And how often do you reflect on whether your actions were right or wrong? Older folks are about 11 points more likely than younger folks to say they're trying every single day to improve their character. Interesting, because they also say they're pretty happy with their character as it is, but they also say they're trying to work on it every day. Huh? Among those who are 55 or older... Only one-third of them said they were reflecting on their behavior most of the time or always, much less than younger folks. So younger folks spend more time reflecting on their behavior morally and think that they're falling short. Older folks spend less time reflecting on their behavior, more time working on their behavior, and are generally happier with their moral character. Does this mean anything to you?
Speaker 1I don't know. It kind of reminds me of like when I just filled up my gas tank today. Good job. And when I have a...
Speaker 2Thanks. It's good to... When I have a full gas tank... Glad America knows about that. You feel a little happier, don't you?
Speaker 1I do. But when I have a full gas tank, I can be a little bit more aggressive on the accelerator. Oh. But when I'm down to like a quarter tank, now I'm thinking more about it and I'm not being as aggressive and I'm more careful about how much because I don't... You know what I mean? Interesting. You don't have that much gas left in the tank.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the younger people are less...
Speaker 355 plus?
Speaker 2The younger people are less happy with themselves morally. Yeah. Is it because they're just... They know they're stepping on the gas too much? Maybe.
Speaker 1Maybe. Maybe. I think it's also because they probably realize their decisions could have longer lasting consequences.
Speaker 3Ooh, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1Like a bad decision when you're 20 could set your life on a trajectory that... Right, right.
Speaker 2But you don't know because you think you're immortal. No.
Speaker 3I mean, I think especially right now...
Speaker 2All the stupid decisions people make.
Speaker 1When you make a bad decision and you're 70, you go, "Well, that doesn't... Other people are gonna deal with that one."
Speaker 3Well, the anxiety that young people have about every decision and college acceptance and...
Speaker 2But are you also less affected as you get older by just passions and hormones and, "Oh, I wish I hadn't said that. I wish I hadn't done that." Because you care so much and you're ambitious and you're striving and... Time sands off the edges. Like Caitlin here. So young, so ambitious. Striving and in all your passions and... In all the bodies under the bus of Caitlin's chef. Oh my gosh. She's just run over in her pursuits. We should take the survey. We should take the survey.
Speaker 3Oh, the three of us? Okay. That's my thing about this data. It's interesting and I actually think the religious angle on it, if we get to that, is more interesting. But all of this, you have to remember, is self-reported. So older, younger people are... Yeah. They have to know what they say they are doing or what they say they believe. And we know from other studies that people are not totally honest or accurate in their self-reporting of things like this. So I think this is interesting, but I don't know that it's interesting in terms of actual reality as much as it is about what people think they should say about themselves.
Speaker 2They should make their spouse or partner report on their moral development. Whoa. Okay. Well, how about each of us reports on the moral development of the person to our right?
Speaker 3We'll rate each other.
Speaker 2Yeah. I'll do you. And then you do me. No. I'm sure that'll be totally accurate. You do Mike. And then Mike does me. And then we report back. And then...
Speaker 3So we have to observe each other for a little bit? Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. We have to call Ryan Burge... In our home lives and... And give him our raw data. Yeah. So that he can make a graph. There we go. And send it back to us. How about I do all three? Oh, that's a great idea. There's also an unmistakable pattern among religiosity. Active religious folks who attend once a week or more are much more likely to think about the morality of their actions than those who are either non-religious or religious. Either non-practicing or non-religious. I hope so. Shocker. If you... Because I was thinking about the morality of my actions all the time growing up because I was constantly hearing about the morality of actions, particularly for teenagers. Yeah. You teens, you youth, stop thinking those thoughts that you're thinking. Jesus doesn't like those thoughts. But is it fair to...
Speaker 1Think good thoughts. Is it fair to say though that the moral concern was pretty narrowly defined?
Speaker 2Yeah. It was the flavor of the day or the decade or the quarter century. Yeah. It's like, "Be careful, little hands, what you do. Be careful, little feet, where you go." You know that song. Did they sing that song when you were a kid?
Speaker 3No. I know that song.
Speaker 2But I don't know. "Be careful, little eyes, what you see." We were... Oh, I was trying to be so careful. That's like terrifying. It is. Like any moment of any day... Yeah. A misstep and boom, I sinned. Yeah. Now I have to do it... I just... I have to say, "I'm sorry again. God has to forgive me again." And he's going to say, "Seriously again? Seriously? Are you back here again?" I did not grow up with that anxiety. Me neither. I know. You had a different... It's pretty evident, Skye. Why didn't you have that? I mean...
Speaker 3Your family was very evangelical.
Speaker 2Yeah. And I also just think the churches I was in had a strong grace emphasis. Oh.
Speaker 3Like I was... I mean, I definitely... That's where I went wrong. I definitely... Yeah. I was... I mean, I definitely... That's where I went wrong. I definitely heard more about certain sins than others as a teenager, for sure. Yeah. But I remember... I mean, the fear I remember feeling, the only time I remember feeling that intense fear was I had been told, "If you take communion in an unworthy manner, then you'll be smote or whatever." Yeah. And so I remember walking down the aisle. We did not take communion very often, and it made me more scared because it was irregular. And being like, "Do not think anything bad. Do not..." Right. Right. "Do not think anything about God," to just like fill my brain so that I wouldn't accidentally think something bad. But that wasn't... It wasn't like part of everyday life, and even especially as like after college seminary to now, when I hear reflecting on your actions, especially as a practicing religious person, I think about confession. I mean, the last 10 years of my life, the churches I've been in have done on our knees confession every week. And that wasn't... That didn't feel like smacking your hand with a ruler. That felt like grace. I mean, you stand up and the pastor says, "You are forgiven in the name of Jesus." Like that gave more freedom to be able to reflect on what you have done than fear about
Speaker 1reflecting on what you've done. It normalizes the process of self-reflection, confession, absolution. Yeah. That's just a normal rhythm.
Speaker 3The pastor does it. Right.
Speaker 2The pastor repented of some sins. Yeah. So... Oh, yeah. We didn't do that. If a pastor had sinned to repent of, we would have ran him right out of town.
Speaker 3Yikes.
Speaker 2Because you're the pastor. Yeah. Yeah. When I... Here's a thought that I had when I was... Oh. When I was reading this. I had a thought. Exciting. Bear with me. I think I felt that I was pretty far from where I should be morally. And I think a big part of it was because I was an introvert. Because what I was told I was supposed to be doing was going out and sharing the gospel, was going to old folks' homes and serving. It was... Yeah. And it involved interactions with strangers. So you were guilty of sins of omission? Yes. Yeah. Because I... Because if I had been doing what I was supposed to be doing, then I would have been a more moral person, but I would have been out among a lot of people that I was very uncomfortable with. And I'm... So I'm wondering if that's a thing. Like if introverts in the church, in my generation in particular, feel like they're doing it more wrong than extroverts. Because they're not doing enough. Yeah. That makes sense. Because so much of it is about social outreach. Are you inviting more people to Sunday school? We had contests when I was a kid. Which kid could invite the most friends to Sunday school and get them to show up? And you got a prize if you invited the most friends. And I'd never even... I don't know that I ever invited anyone. And my grandpa ran the contest and gave out the award. So how does little Phil feel about it?
Speaker 1Phil's... Someone wrote a book not long ago about introverts in the church. I was just looking that up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there is definitely something too, at least within American evangelicalism, that extroversion is seen as godly.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 3Adam McHugh, Introverts in the Church: Finding Our Place in an Extroverted Culture.
Speaker 2So there's a reason that I turned to Christian filmmaking, because I had to be doing something that was good, but I just didn't want to be out there. Mm-hmm. Meeting strangers. And that was the best thing I could come up with, because I tell stories in my room and I fling them out the windows, wee, and then I hope that they reach people, and then I show up at a... different church and they ask me, they assume I want to teach Sunday school. And I say, I absolutely do not want to teach Sunday school. That's why I make videos. You can show the video to the class
Speaker 1full of third graders. This gets back to Bebbington's quadrilateral. Uh-huh. Does it? Tell me how. This is the Bebbington historian, sociologist. Whatever he is. Defining evangelicalism and one of the four components is activism. Activism. Yeah. And so you're, you raised in that. You were supposed to be an activist for the gospel. I had to figure out how to be an introverted activist. Exactly. And it was a huge challenge. And so, but you did it. You did it by
Speaker 2making films. I did it. Good job. But I still is like, oh, but I'm not, you know, working in a soup kitchen. I'm not, I should be doing more social things. But other streams of the church haven't
Speaker 1put as so much emphasis on activism. Like you could be a contemplative. A monk. A monk and a Roman Catholic. Yeah. And that's considered a genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, genuine, valuable Christian vocation. Yeah. That's not true in evangelicalism. No. Uh-uh. And it depends. I
Speaker 3mean, church by church, culture by culture of like what kinds of faithfulness are most honored, valued stories are told about them. They're held up as examples. There are churches. I mean, we were talking before about a really popular Christian author who really values the contemplative life. I have seen churches where that is so highly valued. I mean, it's like the quiet time thing. I've heard a lot of people will be like, I'm too loud for quiet time. Like that is not how my brain works. That's not how. So I, I think every church is at risk of picking certain forms of faithfulness
Speaker 1and saying these are the most valuable. Yeah. This, this is, I, this gets my undies in a bunch, but the, the good visual image, the, the idea that there is a hierarchy of activities. And if you do the ones at the top, you're holy and blessed and sacred. Your mansion is bigger. Right. And if you do the ones at the bottom, you're not good. And what that mistakes is it, it, it values people based on their calling rather than based on their obedience to the one who's called them. And that's the major error. If God has called you to be a filmmaker, then be a filmmaker. If he's called you to be a social activist, be a social activist. If he's called you to be a contemplative monk, be a contemplative monk. And we ought to honor each of those callings because they're in obedience to Christ, not because the calling in and of itself is inherently more value than enough.
Speaker 2We squashed the list of callings down so small.
Speaker 1Which is because, especially in evangelicalism, we have such a bankrupt theology of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2Yeah. I was also not good at selling magazine subscriptions for my Cub Scout troop door to door. I'm shocked, Phil. I did not exceed that. Oh no, there were tickets to the Boy Scout Jamboree. They were Jamboree tickets. I was supposed to be selling door to door tickets. I was supposed to be selling door to door and there was a certain number minimum you were supposed to sell. And the only way I made it over the line to be acceptable, to be a good upstanding Cub Scout, was that my grandma stepped in and
Speaker 3bought all the ones I didn't sell. Aww. Are there any other things you're sad about from your
Speaker 2childhood? Oh, I got lots. How much time do you have? Hey, introverts, do you resonate with what I'm saying at all? Do you ever feel like you're not doing enough that it has to be more social? Do you have to be an extra? Do you have to be an introvert to be holy? Discuss amongst yourselves. Or discuss by yourself since you're an introvert. Okay. A new book coming out called Covenantal Pluralism, the Geopolitics of Interfaith Religious Freedom. I smell bestseller. Wow. And I can't pronounce his name. Do you see the name of the... Do you know how to pronounce that name, Sky? Hold on. I-Q-B-A-L. What's I-Q-B-A-L? Iqbal. Iqbal Akhtar. Hold on. Where are you? Yeah, what? I'm on the Dispatch homepage. Okay. I'm not there. This is in the Dispatch.
Speaker 1I have had at least two friends named Iqbal. Really? Yeah.
Speaker 2You have at least two friends named Iqbal? Yeah.
Speaker 1In the US?
Speaker 2You have at least two friends?
Speaker 1One in the US. One in the US. It's a Muslim name. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Sometimes abbreviated to Icky.
Speaker 2Oh. Really? Yeah. Oh, well, that must be fun in middle school. Religious tolerance isn't good enough. He's writing about our use of the phrase religious tolerance and how he finds it not nearly thick enough for what we actually need. To tolerate something is, etymologically speaking, to bear it, to endure what you would rather not have around. Then he quotes a rabbi. A rabbi who wrote the book, The Home We Build Together, makes a point of distinction between tolerance and true unity. He says, Tolerance does not require us to agree with our neighbors, but it is too weak a virtue to unite us with them. Mere tolerance leaves us strangers living side by side. Iqbal? Iqbal. Iqbal. Says, A covenant is different in kind. It's a mutual promise to seek the good of the other, made across the lines of deep difference. Made across the lines of difference. Made across the lines of deep difference, rather than by pretending the difference is a way. Covenantal pluralism does not ask a Muslim to become less Muslim, a Christian less Christian, or a secular humanist to soften his convictions. It asks something harder, that each hold fast to his own account of the truth and commit himself to the flourishing of neighbors who hold a different one. Tolerance can be withdrawn the moment it becomes inconvenient because it was never more than agreement not to fight. A covenant knits difference into a structure. Covenantal pluralism does not ask a Muslim to become less Muslim, a Christian less Christian, or a secular humanist to soften his convictions. It asks something harder, that each hold fast to his own account of the truth and commit himself to the flourishing of neighbors who hold a different one. Covenantal pluralism does not ask a Muslim to become less Muslim, a Christian less Christian, or a secular humanist to soften his convictions. It asks something harder, that each hold fast to his own account of the truth and commit himself to the flourishing of neighbors who hold a different one. Surveilled that it curdles into the militancy the realist fears. The believer worries that pluralism requires him to treat his convictions as one option at a spiritual buffet, but it does not. Covenantal pluralism asks him to believe no less and to love more. What?
Speaker 1Okay, I mean, there's so much here. What do you like about this? I love so much about this. But what strikes me is this is exactly what Jesus calls us to. Yeah? Yeah. Deep fidelity and commitment and allegiance to him.
Speaker 2And kicking all the Muslims out of Texas.
Speaker 1And deeply loving our neighbor, including the neighbor who is very different from ourselves. And this is the antithesis of what Christian fundamentalism does. Because what Christian fundamentalism says is, my faith is so fragile and weak that I have to isolate from anyone who could pose a challenge to it, which then prevents me from truly loving those who are different or opposed to what I believe. And it's a barometer for genuine faith in Jesus that I am secure enough in my allegiance to him that I am not threatened by the existence of a neighbor who disagrees with me. In fact, I will go so far as to love that neighbor and seek their flourishing.
Speaker 2So, okay. So I heard recently somebody say that the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees was the Pharisees held the position that if they interacted with an unpure person, they would become unpure. And Jesus held the position that if an unpure person interacts with me, I will make them pure. So he had zero reluctance to eat, you know, eat a meal with the unpure, to go into the house of sinners. And it feels a little bit like we, in the fundamentalist movement in the U.S., we very strongly took the Pharisaical position of I got to keep my kids away from those kids. I got to keep my, you know, my wife away from those people. I got to keep my family away from those people because they are unpure and they will make us. So we're always in danger of being deformed by what we are infected by what we come in contact with.
Speaker 1It's a fear-based view of faith that sees my faith and my identity and my community as profoundly fragile, which I think is a betrayal of who God is and who Jesus reveals himself to be and who he's calling us to be. So when people are that angry and isolated from anyone. Anyone who's different. It's a tell to me that your faith is actually very weak.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. So is it possible? This is a question for Caitlin. Is it possible to pursue covenantal pluralism in a country where so many of the people who are the most religious are immature? Wow. It's a religious maturity. To be secure.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think it I think there are some structural things at play here, too. Like you all have very well described the the ditch on kind of one end of this, like the way that religious people can fail to understand that they can hold to their convictions in a way that is not coercive of other people. That doesn't require the absence of other people. But there is a problem on the other end that this article points out can kind of mutually reinforce each other. Right. Like the point about repression, it's it's it's religiously repressive. that tend to create the most reactionary religious movements. That's not at all to say that America repressed religion that's not true but we have had some institutions and some cultures within some institutions that have said yeah we're not gonna be upset that you're religious but you need
Speaker 2to leave your religion at the door i don't want to hear i don't want to hear about it and having
Speaker 3been in one of those where where people kind of had a learned discomfort with anything that even smelled like not just religion but any kind of deeper value claim any kind of metaphysical claim It was like, no, no, no, we filter that out.
Speaker 2That was at Liberty?
Speaker 3Yeah, right. I understand. I mean, I watched people become, go from being kind of a moderate, like politically moderate evangelical Christian who believed in Orthodox Christian faith, but was not anywhere near a Christian nationalist or anything like that. But go further in that direction in response to being in environments where any mention of religion was treated as inappropriate, immoral, a violation of some social norm.
Speaker 1Caitlin, the funny part about that, though, is what you're describing is secular fundamentalism.
Speaker 3Oh, totally, totally.
Speaker 1Where they're so fundamentalist in their non-religiosity that they have no tolerance for religion, which actually drives the semi-religious person to more extreme versions of it.
Speaker 3Totally, totally. My point is just there's kind of two ends of this. There's the word. There's the word that needs to be said to religious people, sometimes Christians, sometimes other religions, who have learned that to keep their convictions, they need to kind of annihilate other people or exclude other people or be separate from other people. But then there's a word that needs to be said to those who think the way that we keep the peace is filtering all religion out of all conversations. You need something more robust than that. The challenge we have today, and this article talks a lot about how this kind of covenantal pluralism was more in line with what the founders had in mind. The challenge we have today is we got here because we said, let's kind of get to the lowest common denominator of what we can believe. There was a time when, for the most part, not everyone, but for the vast majority of people, the lowest common denominator still had some pretty significant claims involved. Like many people, while they had great differences in how they believed Christians should act or be governed or what kind of church polity you should have, still believed a lot of the same basic Christian ideas. Now we're trying to figure out how to do this in a world where we're still having this idea that we should find the lowest common denominator. But we don't have any lowest common denominator, so we're left with nothing. And then when we try and have something more like this, like I've been in a lot of interfaith conversations, conferences where we try and do this, but the struggle is like there is so little common ground in terms of our religious beliefs that it's no longer even just like Abrahamic faiths where it's like, okay, we have some general ideas about God that are the same. We have lots of big differences. We're not even coming with that kind of common ground. So I, like Sky, really loved this, and I've been kind of beating the jump for a long time. Like, we will have better interfaith conversations if we're honest about what we believe instead of leaving it at the door. But I also think this presents a really beautiful picture, and the on-the-ground reality is really messy and really hard, and it gets into all of these places where we conflict. I mean, I was at an interfaith conference a few years ago with a lot of people who really believed in this idea that, like, we should seek common ground with each other by being very honest about our convictions, holding them well, but trying to figure out how to live well together. And there was a significant. group of this conference that were egalitarian Christians of some denominational background, but there were women pastors there and many women at the conference. And then there were some Muslim leaders who wouldn't shake their hand, not because they didn't want to be in relationship with them, but because by their conviction, they shouldn't touch the hand of a woman. And the women Christians in this group were horribly offended by this and thought, like, no, we should have a norm in this conference that those beliefs about women are incompatible with this conference. Okay, well, then all of a sudden you've excluded. Yeah, you've excluded. And that's not to say one or the other was right. I think that's one of the examples of just, like, it is very hard to do this well. We've got to continue trying to be able to learn more and make mistakes and try again. But I think the idea of it, I've been one who on this podcast has, like, said this is a great idea. The on the ground reality is really hard.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'll tell you what worries me is this desire for a shared lowest common denominator base of decision making or community based decision making. It's scary when it comes back to the only thing we share in common is economics. So we're going to base all of our decisions on what's best for the financial bottom line. And I think an awful lot of American politics, of American culture, of moral decisions are simply coming down to that. Like, I was at a debate a few months ago between David French and Governor Chris Christie about online gambling. And so much of what Governor Christie was arguing, he was one of the people who helped pass the legislation and fight the corp out that has made sports gambling. And so I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing.
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Speaker 1And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing. And I think that's a really good thing.
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Speaker 7I was probably 22, 23, and we might've been in the same neck of the woods. We'll leave that nameless around that time. And I was studying the history of American Christianity, and I was feeling some of the blowback from non-black writers and peers who basically were naming much of what I grew up admiring, namely the civil rights movement and preachers who carried a kind of thus saith the Lord in the public square. They were naming that as a kind of social gospel and putting it under Walter Rauschenbusch and a number of other names that were derogatory in that community. And I just, I would find myself scratching my head saying, well, that doesn't actually reflect where I come from. And then a light bulb went off. Oh, you know, for the people who claim a high view of scripture, high view of Christ, They have been conspicuously absent in the fight for equity and justice throughout American history. And I don't know if it's because I'm a glutton for punishment or if I just like history. But the further I went down that pipe, the more that hypothesis became a thesis.
Speaker 1It seems like a self-reinforcing argument, though, because if you are in a community that says we take the Bible seriously, we take doctrine and theology seriously, we care about orthodoxy, and that's the foundation of who we are, and you encounter a Christian or a Christian community that has some different perspective than you do, then you have to dismiss that as not legitimate because we're the ones who take the Bible seriously. So all of my blind spots, prejudices, idiosyncrasies are automatically baptized by the label that we're the ones who take it seriously. Yes. Did you encounter that when you tried to make others around you aware of like, wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, I'm going to take the Bible seriously. Wait a minute, maybe you're misrepresenting what the civil rights movement or the black church has done here.
Speaker 7Absolutely. So I think rather than it being the supremacy of God in preaching and theology, it became the supremacy of white evangelicalism in theology and in preaching. And that's the problem, Sky. It is whoever does the doctrine, the theology, or works together with formulating the doctrine is going to, is going to land at a different point of emphasis. And so when you do not have certain voices locked in that study or talking through theology or even reviewing history to cover the gaps, then it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy because you think, and that's the way, if I may say, we were trained, you think that you've got it all right. It may be accurate, but it's not exhaustive. And I think that's what my experience was. In that community, it's an echo chamber. Yeah.
Speaker 1Speaking of our training, I was encouraged to see in the middle of the book, you quoted Bruce Fields, who was a significant influence on me in seminary. His quote in your book is, many think that social, cultural, and religious factors do not affect theological formation. Many do not understand that the formulation of doctrine, the exploration of the relationships between doctrines, and the commitment to applying theology to life can lead to different, different emphases. Yes. You're talking about how that's clearly been the case within white evangelicalism, that there's a blindness to recognizing how the white evangelical social, economic, political location can inform their sense of theology. How is this also evident for good and ill within the black church tradition as well?
Speaker 7And before I answer that, let me talk about the locus and focus in one sense of for which I'm writing. I was in writing about that, thinking about the more dominant strand of Christianity in America. To be clear, that group that gets the microphone, that has the largest voting bloc, as it were. And so that line in particular, and knowing Dr. Fields, who's a blessed memory now, that's exactly who he was talking about. For me, to answer your question, let me say it this way, Sky. Typically in a black church and in black America, to survive, you have to learn about white people. And you have to learn. You have to be conversant with white ideas or ideas that emanate from white thinkers, even especially white Christian thinkers. So a person like me doesn't come of age without knowing who Jonathan Edwards is or who George Whitefield is. Even, I mean, as early as seventh and eighth grade, you know, you hear about the great awakenings and all of that kind of stuff. Sinners in the hands of an angry God. Sinners in the hands of an angry God. Man, when I finally read that, oh, my gosh. I think I had to read it like three times. I fell asleep once. But anyway. You don't come of age. There are certain groups in our culture who have the privilege of never having to have been conversant with black people or women or brown people in their matriculation. That's the robbery, the thievery that takes place in theological education. I got to know about you in order to survive. You don't even have to hear about me to earn a degree or to go public in ministry. So part of what I feel like. And answering your question is I already had that when I when I came in. So some of those blind spots, I'm not saying that I don't have them, but I culturally I had fewer of them. And then if you add to that, like you become part of a campus crusade for Christ in college or you go to intervarsity or something like that as a black kid who grew up in a black church, you are almost trilingual by that point. And so that's. That's one thing. But but there are things there are blind spots. And I think even in my pastorate, I run into them. And one of them that's not necessarily covered in in that text, I think, is fair critique of the book is that there are very powerful movements within the broader strands of evangelicalism that are not black. They were very sympathetic.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 7That that were very forward facing and even fueled and energized abolition and reconstruction and the deconstruction of Jim Crow. And a kind of regard, a warmth comes alive, I think, in the heart and makes a student or a pastor like me not give up on everybody who doesn't look like me as a result of learning those.
Speaker 1One of the things that I appreciate about your book, this is not just throwing stones at white evangelicalism. You are you are standing, I think, in a prophetic posture, looking at the entire spectrum of the American church and pointing out calling balls and strikes, strengths and weaknesses. Page 12, again, very early in the book, you said this. Our seminaries are lying to us. Both evangelical and progressive camps make it seem like you have to choose between a right view of God or a right view of humanity. And this struck me because one of the more common conversations I have with with people in the Holy Post audience, many of whom grew up in white evangelical subculture churches, things like that, who have been really dismayed and frustrated over the last 10 years, at least over the last 10 years. The idolatry, the political idolatry, the acquiescence to MAGA, all that stuff that's going on in white evangelicalism, they feel like their only option is to abandon that subculture and completely immerse themselves in a progressive, perhaps Christian subculture that carries perhaps the politics and justice posture that they want. But then they feel like I have to give up on a high view of scripture or some orthodox Christian doctrines because you can't find that. You can't find that package together. What do you say to people who share your concerns about white evangelicalism, but then say the answer is progressive Christianity?
Speaker 7I know of 100 churches I could list right now that whose pastors you need to be listening to. And that's part of the argument of the book. I think there's an entire swath of the African-American Christian witness that I think has lived faithfully in the middle. I'm not saying all black churches have done it. Like you and I were talking about before we start recording this book, if I may say so. It's going to piss everybody off. I mean, all the camps in one sense. However, there have been traditions that have lived kind of safely in the middle. And this is where I think the African-American church in America bequeaths to broader evangelicalism a more faithful witness. Actually, if I may use the language, a more faithful Christian worldview. And that is you can be, as a Bible-believing Christian, sometimes you're going to sound conservative. And sometimes you're going to sound progressive. The problem is when you only sound conservative or you only sound progressive, then that framework has kind of hijacked your theology. So to that end, I would say what church you go to might matter more than what school you go to. Because the church has a way of forming Christians and discipling students and readying people for the marketplace in a way that they can do it. But the academy does not. And so there were filters through which I had to process what I was learning in the academy. And even when I read now, that came from the church.
Speaker 1Let's talk about one of the stories you tell in the book. And that was your role in 2018 at the MLK50 event.
Speaker 7Okay.
Speaker 1Oh, you're chuckling. A lot of people, I'm sure, don't remember what MLK50 was. Talk about the event. Who was behind it?
Speaker 7and how you ended up there. - How I ended up there. So in 2018, our nation marked the 50th anniversary of the assassination of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who, in my mind, is the greatest American yet to have lived. It was remarkable that a number of organizations started lining up to mark that moment. And of the organizations lining up to do it was the Gospel Coalition and the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. I had some proximity to the Gospel Coalition because I was in one of those early meetings. Dr. Don Carson, who was a faithful mentor, a professor of mine, actually was my advisor, if I may just say it plainly. He and Tim Keller, you know, were leading the Gospel Coalition and Russell Moore was leading the ERLC. And so they gathered together and they put their speakers together. And they had some black people on there. All right. So let me go on record and say that. And the black people who they had lined up were probably not the voices of the churches where I serve, the people that they would recognize. So I'm saying that as plainly and as generously and as gingerly as I can. And so when the black pastors in Memphis. And this is generally. I'm making a whole nother statement as I say this. But when the black pastors and the white pastors, especially in Memphis, found out that TGC and ERLC were coming to Memphis, they basically put a full stop on it and said, we will not cooperate.
Speaker 1And for those who don't remember their history, Memphis is the city where Dr. King was assassinated. Exactly. So there's a lot of symbolism to the timing and the location of this event. So why did they rally to go, no, we're not doing this?
Speaker 7Because they felt like, actually, it was the white pastors from what I understand. They felt like the ERLC and TGC were coming to take a moment that historically they had had no real sweat or skin engaged in. And they were going to somehow pay homage to the memory of King without yet laying a framework of respect and regard for the lineage that has continued King's work.
Speaker 1Yeah. And these are organizations. The Gospel Coalition, Southern Baptist Convention, that to put it delicately, their antecedents in the 1950s and 60s, they were not participants in the civil rights movement. They were standing against what Dr. King was doing. So what do you think was the motivation behind this event?
Speaker 7Well, I can't speak to the heart motivation, but what I can say is I think somebody like Russell Moore was very courageous. Totally. He was trying to lead that arm of the Southern Baptist Convention into reconciliation and repentance. And I think he was made to suffer for it. The Gospel Coalition, I'm not sure, because at that time, it seemed sexy, if I may, to venture into that lane of reconciliation and repentance. Some of that I do not feel lingers. But I do feel that in 2026, if I may say so plainly, I actually feel like, oh, I'm in trouble. I may as well say it. I feel like that wind or wave has regressed. I don't think there's any denying that. And I think it was in vogue. It was almost a risk. And I remember when I delivered the message there. And again, the only reason I got on platform is because the black pastors in Memphis said, hey, you need to give us these people. But the governor of Tennessee. The governor of Tennessee was sitting right there in the middle on the front row. And he could have not been more uncomfortable with my delivery at that moment. In fact, I remember thinking, I had to stop looking at this guy because it's going to throw me off. That was the sentiment. It was hot and cold in that room. And when I got going, it was more cold. And then it warmed up. And I think it took off beyond what the ERLC and TGC. We're ready for. Okay.
Speaker 1The reason I wanted to talk about that story, which is relatively recent, is in your way of putting it is, I think, perfect. There was momentum. There was energy. But that has ebbed, right? That's just dissipated in the last eight years. It parallels a significant part of your book where you compare the work and ministry of Dr. King with the work and ministry of Billy Graham. The most famous black preacher in America. The most famous white evangelical preacher. And early on in Graham's ministry, he seemed to be on a trajectory of coordination with the civil rights movement. He was desegregating his evangelistic crusades. He was a friend of Dr. King. You mentioned that he's the one who bailed him out of the Birmingham jail, which a lot of people don't know. He was challenging some of these ideas. But as time went on, Billy Graham backed off on all that in a significant way and actually became pretty. He was very outspoken against some of these efforts towards justice. Is there a parallel between what may have happened in Graham's ministry and more recently what you've seen in white evangelicals kind of getting energized around justice and race and then suddenly cooling off?
Speaker 7This guy, this is why I read your emails. No, I'm serious. That's a brilliant observation. I hadn't put those two together, but I think so. I just don't know why. I can hypothesize with you. I can hypothesize with you. But I do not have a firm answer as to why that is. Let me begin by saying a lot of the pushback, by the way, that I got from that Billy Graham piece is that Billy Graham wasn't political. You know, Christians ought not be so political. I think Jesus was pretty political in a lot of what he said. He might not have been partisan. And I feel like the Graham Association went partisan. And you cannot do full justice work and be partisan. Whatever your party. You have to have the ability and the dexterity and the audacity to turn in on your party and to say, we're wrong about this or you're wrong about that.
Speaker 1Well, it's another way of saying your highest allegiance has to be to Christ rather than to a political party, regardless of what your party is.
Speaker 7Yes. Yes. But I do think that there is that regression. And I think what we can learn, though, from the Billy Graham incident is, and this is documented, he wrote that like one of his greatest regrets is that he was not more political. He was not more present at the March on Washington one, but had a presence in the Civil Rights Movement. So there comes a time. But he said that, I think, 2005, roughly. Like, it was very late in his life. Very late. Very late. It wasn't like the week after. And I wish I had been in Washington. No, no, no. You're right. Very late. But that's my point. You end up living long enough to see the error of your ways. And rather than just being courageous and standing on principle, rather than going along with popularity, rather than doing... Some people are doing that. Some people acquiesce. I don't want to live with those kind of regrets, Sky, if I may. Like, that's what history gives us, is the benefit. I don't want to be 80, saying, you know, I should have spoke up for women. You know, no, no, no. Let's do that now. Okay.
Speaker 1I appreciate it in the book as you were talking about Graham and his story and how he backed off on these things. Like, you didn't try to assign him motives that you didn't know, because we don't know exactly why he did all these things. But you do speculate broadly, not about Graham, but in general. Why is it that some Christians back off on these causes? And, like, for example, on page 101, you said, to preserve their social standing and fear of economic loss.
Speaker 7Oh, man.
Speaker 1Another quote, you say, The power of the gospel has been choked out by the cares of the world and the love of money, lifting from the parable of the sower. I think I put an exclamation point and an amen in the margin on that page, because this is what... This is what I have bumped up against over and over and over again. Christian leaders, evangelical leaders, pastors, whatever, organizations who get excited about these justice issues, maybe because it's in the air, it's in the media, whatever it might be. But I think they have a genuine scriptural theological motivation for engaging this. Yeah. And then there's a cost. Yeah. Then it's the biggest donor is not happy about this. Yeah. A significant... A significant portion of their constituency who's politically motivated is upset. Yeah. And then there's a price. Yeah. There's a significant price. And that's when things cool down. And I've been in the room and heard this where, I don't want to give them the details again, but a significant leader will say, I'm with you, but my organization is not really called to this. We're called to that, and we are going to lose money. We're going to lose donors. We're going to get sidetracked. So you all have... We're with you. We're praying for you, but we're not going to get involved. How do you deal with that challenge? Is there anything other than prayer to exercise a demon like that? Or what do you say to people?
Speaker 7Can I ask you to answer that first? I know I'm the one being interviewed, but I'm curious from your vantage point and your social location, is there anything more powerful than money that motivates people to do the right or wrong thing?
Speaker 1Ah, goodness. I mean, I don't want to over... stated, there should be. - Yes. - There should be. - Yes. it's muddled is our allegiance to Christ should be paramount and the realization, regardless of what our leadership role is, we all have to give an account one day. We will stand before him and give an account. I think where it gets confusing to people is they confuse their institutional position with their standing before the Lord. That I'm responsible for this institution, this university, this school, this ministry, this church. And if the budget gets cut in half because I take a difficult stand on a justice issue, well, then I'm failing my institutional
Speaker 7role. And isn't that what God's gonna judge me for? Now, see, and that's a surgical analysis that I think hits at the heart of the issue. I would dovetail it in this way. One of the benefits of poverty is that you learn not to give a dog. Right. You honestly say, "Hey, like the Apostle Paul, I've learned how to manage with a lot, or how to manage with a little, but in that learning, I've managed to find contentment." And I think when you go from having a lot, your sense of security, even organizational leadership is in that plenty. But when you have had to make bricks with no straw, you're not afraid if you start... Yeah. ...losing straw, 'cause you've been there before. So I fortunately don't know what it's like to have a lot of money. I fortunately don't know what it's like to lead a big institution with significant reserves. I just don't know that. So I'll be honest with you, I've only known the Lord as a provider in that way. I've never known people as a provider. In fact, even some of the larger donors at our ministry who've gotten frustrated with me and have walked, "Man, I cried." This is the first time, "I cried when I saw I wanna go." But then it occurred to me, the earth is the Lord's. I mean, as a pastor, the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, He founded it upon the seas. And you know what I've come to discover? I say this as a word of encouragement in case... Man, not only did the Lord replace it, He tripled it. And not just with one person. So if God is really provider for the leader, then there has to be some sense of solace there. But it's like Paul's testimony. At some point, you gotta be comfortable in poverty in the same way you are with plenty. Amen. Yeah. It is a... Do you fear God or do you fear man?
Speaker 1I've heard these excuses many, many times. So I just... I'm trying to figure out my own response, and it depends on the circumstance.
Speaker 7Yeah. And I also think, do you fear God or do you fear man? And who really is the supplier? Right. Is it God or is it man? And I think, again, when you're down to the dregs and the Lord puts food on the table, you go, "Oh, it's the Lord."
Speaker 1I know you mentor a lot of young people and you have interns at your church and people who are exploring ministry vocations. I've done a little bit of that, probably less than you have, but I always have someone in my life in that role. And one of the things I've had to say to them is, "Look, if God's calling you into ministry, wonderful. Obviously, obey that call and follow it. But don't go into ministry if you're not prepared to leave it."
Speaker 7My, my.
Speaker 1Because I've... Just met too many people my age who went into ministry and get locked into these circumstances where they feel caught between what their conscience, the Holy Spirit is telling them to do, and what's good for the organization that they're a part of. And they're unwilling to walk away from the organization because their identity is all wrapped up in that. And they justify it with, "Well, I'm called to ministry. This is part of what you have to do." And I think we make a mistake
Speaker 7and we're not willing to let go. We've made an idol out of it. Yeah. It's the idolatry of success. Totally. And it's success narrowly defined. Jeremiah, by every stretch of the imagination, was an unsuccessful prophet. 40 years, basically, no convert. I mean, people don't like him. Even the little kids don't like him. They call him... I forget the name that they give him. Oh, Megor Mezabeb, or something like that in the Hebrew text. And yet he sticks with it. Mm-hmm . Through and through because of that arrestive opening line in all of the prophets, "And the word of the Lord came to..." So when the Lord constrains you with his word, you may not be a roaring success in that regard, but we're still reading Jeremiah. We're still quoting him because some good came out of that. And I wonder when you use the line, "Don't go into it if you're not afraid to leave it," you have to have the... I can't use the word I wanna use. But you have to have the fortitude to be able to say, "This is not what I thought it was. It's not going to... But I'm going to do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may, even if that means I'm last in my class."
Speaker 1All right. In the time we have left, I wanna pivot from the excuses and shortcomings that we often hear in white evangelical circles to your book's critique of what you see happening in some more black progressive circles, especially in the activism. Another story, after the Laquan McDonald murder, the police released... People can look up some of the details of that horrific story, but the police finally released a video in 2015 of what really happened. And the city of Chicago kind of erupts over this. You and a number of other black church leaders organize a rally, a march, Michigan Avenue. North Michigan Avenue. Yeah. I mean, it's a magnificent mile. This is the center of... Yeah. On Black Friday. Yeah. And it's obviously designed to get attention and call the city to account for this whole thing. Explain what happened though, 'cause in the book it's remarkable,
Speaker 7'cause there were other protesters there. Yes. And I didn't know that. I thought when I showed up, Sky, everybody was together. The Reverend Jesse Lewis Jackson Singer, who's a blessed memory now, his funeral was held at the church I pastor, was at the front. And kind of the older guard of black clergy and some black and some non-black leaders. I was in like the middle section. So it's me and it's Otis Moss III, and it's Reginald Williams, it's a few others. And we're going down, all of a sudden the march stops. So I'm like, "What's going on? It's cold, it's time to go." And I look up and there are hundreds, and I may be understating it, but hundreds of young black people standing up in those big flower planters in the middle of North Michigan Avenue. And I thought they were yelling with us. Mm-hmm . They were yelling against us. So they start turning over at us, and they're pointing, and a few of them are chanting at Reverend Jesse Jackson, "You don't belong here. Get out." And that's when I was like, "Oh my gosh, this can't be real." Then it was like time slowed down, and I got a picture of the ignorance of history, or the absence of history, and how ignorant it can make one. They did not even know that the blueprint for protesting was laid by the people who were right in front of us. The more insidious, the more ignorant component of it that struck me is, even if they got, Scott, the justice that they were after, they were ignoring the righteous underpinning, it would collapse underneath their weight. Because there's something about the oppressed becoming the oppressor without the restraint of righteousness. And that's my critique of any movement, black, yellow, red, green, that strives for justice apart from righteousness. Once you get it, what you going to do with it? You will do the same thing that everybody else has done, and you will let power thoroughly corrupt your decision making.
Speaker 1This is the great contribution of the civil rights movement is it was deeply tethered to the spirituality of the black church, the gospel. We will not meet our enemy with hate, but with love, all of that. And we're seeing not just in young black activists, but in all kinds of different activists movements in this country. And I think that's what we're seeing. We're seeing a complete disconnect from that righteousness, or that moral foundation, that grounding in the gospel. All right, this was another statement in your book, page 106, that just arrested me. You say, "When the church abdicates its responsibility, it leaves space for justice to be pursued through unrighteous means, means that never produce justice." I think, having read the whole book and many other accounts of 20th and 21st century American Christianity, I understand how a lot of the white evangelical church has abdicated its responsibility to pursue justice. Are you seeing that part of the black church has abdicated its responsibility as well?
Speaker 7No question about it. Because those weren't white activists shouting at you guys. No, no, no, no, no, absolutely. Every community activist now that has a microphone and is gaining popularity without any connection to the God of righteousness is a part of what I'm talking about. And so I write about... And in the end, I'm like, "Well, I don't know what you're talking about." instance, in there where we were hosting a meeting at Progressive, where some community activists were platformed. We were just hosting it. And it was scary, Sky, the danger with which their ideas came forth, that really that prompted that part of the writing of that book, because even black churches per se are running the risk if we do not step into the fore to speak up truthfully, then the non-natives, the people without the Sunday school curriculum. without the ethics of love and mercy and walking humbly with God, will try to take it by force. And we have, I can't tell you the number of black preachers I have come to know who have nothing to say on matters of justice. And they are as evangelical as some of the names of the people in that book. And I think not only is it a betrayal of scripture, it's a betrayal of our heritage. But that is just as alive and well. But at the same time, that was always the case. So when Martin King comes to Chicago in the 1960s, Mayor Richard J. Daley organizes black preachers to rail against Martin King. So they come up with the press conferences and say that King is not welcome here. That line is through and through. I just think today, the greater black antagonist toward justice and equity, most of them classify themselves as evangelical. That is with a high view of scripture and a corresponding high
Speaker 1view of Christ. Interesting. Grateful for your book. I'm grateful for the way, like I said, you're standing on a prophetic position and calling the balls and strikes and seeing that it isn't like this side of the church has got it all right and that side's all wrong. It's a call to self-examination. And where does our allegiance lie? Is it with the gospel? Is it with Christ? Is it with the authority of scripture on all of these matters? Or are we picking and choosing where to give our allegiance because we don't want to lose social standing or economic power or whatever it might be? The book is our selection for this course. Man, I'm trying not to cry. Holy Post Book Club. So anybody who's a Holy Post plus subscriber is going to get either a digital or physical copy of this book. And I think we're going to be doing more with it in conversation with our audience. So Charlie, thank you for writing it and not just writing it, but I mean, you're living it out. You're leading a congregation to try to hold righteousness. You're leading a congregation to try to hold righteousness. Righteousness and justice together. Fidelity to Christ and his kingdom and the ethics of his kingdom with deep concern and care for what's happening in the world and trying to change it
Speaker 7for the better. We are trying. If I may ask of you and of your listeners, when you talk to God in heaven, call my name. Ask him to be gracious, to show us the path. We are trying to do exactly what you just described. And we need God to make the crooked ways straight. We will do that. And
Speaker 1out there. I hope you'll go pick up a copy of the book. You can get it by becoming a subscriber to Holy Post Plus, or of course, wherever you would normally get your books. Charlie, thank you so
Speaker 2much for being here. Thank you, Scott. The Holy Post Podcast is a production of Holy Post Media, produced by Mike Strelow, editing by Seth Gorvett. Help us create more thoughtful Christian media by subscribing to Holy Post Plus at holypost.com slash plus. Also, be sure to leave a review on Apple Podcasts so more people can discover thoughtful Christian commentary, plus ukulele, and occasional butt news. Visit holypost.com for show notes, news stories, Holy Post merchandise, and much, much more.

Podcast Summary

Key Points:

  1. Dolly Parton's death sparked an unusually universal outpouring of grief across political and religious lines, driven by her genuine kindness, philanthropy, and joyful authenticity.
  2. New survey data suggests older adults feel morally closer to their ideals and reflect less on their actions than younger adults, while religiously active people reflect more on morality.
  3. Charlie Dates argues that American Christianity has falsely separated righteousness from justice, and that both white evangelicalism and black progressive activism have failed to hold them together.
  4. Dates critiques Billy Graham's retreat from civil rights as a cautionary tale about allowing fear of economic and social loss to override prophetic conviction.
  5. Covenantal pluralism is presented as a more robust alternative to mere tolerance, calling people to hold fast to their own convictions while actively seeking the flourishing of those who disagree.

Summary:

The episode opens with a discussion of Dolly Parton's death and the remarkable breadth of the public mourning. The hosts reflect on how Parton managed to be universally beloved across ideological lines, attributing this to her authentic kindness, extensive philanthropy, refusal to be sanctimonious, and joy in her own flamboyant persona. They note that her faith was personal and unorthodox, yet she avoided both cynicism and self-righteousness, staying true to her roots and her own sense of calling rather than seeking approval.

The conversation shifts to survey data on moral self-assessment, showing that older adults report being more satisfied with their moral character while reflecting less on their actions, whereas younger adults are more self-critical and reflective. The hosts discuss how evangelical culture has historically equated extroverted activism with holiness, creating guilt for introverts and narrowing the definition of faithful Christian vocation.

The main segment features an interview with Charlie Dates, author of *What Hath Justice to Do with Righteousness*. Dates argues that American Christianity has falsely separated a right view of God from a right view of humanity. He critiques both white evangelicalism's retreat from justice work and the tendency of some progressive activism to pursue justice without righteousness. Using the example of MLK50 and the backlash from younger Black protesters, Dates illustrates the generational disconnect from the moral foundations of the civil rights movement. He also examines Billy Graham's withdrawal from civil rights advocacy as a warning about how fear of losing social standing and economic security can derail prophetic witness. Dates calls for a faith that is secure enough in its convictions to love neighbors across deep differences, and he challenges Christian leaders to prioritize obedience to God over institutional preservation.

FAQs

The book is 'What Hath Justice to Do with Righteousness' by Charlie Date. Holy Post Plus subscribers can get a free digital copy.

There is currently a 30% discount on a Holy Post Plus subscription. You can sign up at holypost.com/plus.

Dolly Parton's Imagination Library has given away over 300 million books to children. She also helped reduce the dropout rate in her home county and donated $1 million toward coronavirus vaccine research.

Dolly Parton called herself very spiritual but not religious. She grew up attending a Pentecostal church and said her three passions were God, music, and sex.

Younger adults are more likely to say they are far from being the person they ought to be morally, while older adults tend to feel closer to their moral ideal and report working on character improvement daily.

Covenantal pluralism is a mutual promise to seek the good of the other across lines of deep difference. It asks people to hold fast to their own convictions while committing to the flourishing of neighbors who hold different beliefs.

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15364 words