Returning Home

[Music] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. You are listening to the Dad Still Standing Podcast. My name is Matt and I'm here with my good friend, Liam. So this episode we did an episode last week regarding the first, what was going to be the first week and what happens while you're at the hospital following baby loss. And I think we really last very, very quickly that there is a lot of subjects to cover. And we managed to pretty much feel one whole episode with sort of the circumstances around what happens at the hospital and how you're going to be feeling at the hospital right up to the point of going home. And we stopped at the point of getting home last week, didn't we, Liam? We did, yeah, that the view to carrying on. Yeah, we did, that's where we stopped it, that's where we stopped it last time around. And it felt like the right time to do it actually because there's that whole, you know, we've returned home. And that's almost like the first step or the first chapter is done, isn't it? And then it's a milestone, isn't it? I think it's there. And it's almost, I think it's at that moment you return home when you walk through the family door. When you go right now, the new life begins. Like, oh, not the new life, that's not true. Now the new normal begins. Yeah, I think that's that, I think that's the point you realize that you've got to actually start living with this loss. Yeah. And you've actually got to try and return to, return to normal. And I said last week that you will have to find a new normal because things will never be the same again. And I don't want that to sound depressing, but I just think it's important that you are that we tell you that things will not be the same again. And that you will have to find a new normal. But it's also important to say that you will find a new normal. And there are, there are, you know, things out there, there are organisations out there and there are people out there. That will be able to help you find a new normal. And I would say don't be in a rush to find a new normal. Be kind to yourself, take your time. But know that you will eventually find a new normal. So that's, I think that's important to, you know, I don't want to be all doom and gloom, but things will never be the same again. They won't, but it, you will, you will learn to learn to find a new normal. And yeah. And be happy. And I think that that's an important side of it as well. And you've gone through, and we're talking to you the listeners, if this has happened to you, but it could quite easily be a friend or family member or a colleague or just someone, you know, or you could work in the profession as well. You've gone through the worst thing you'll ever go through. Certainly one of the worst things you'll ever go through. And it'll feel like you're never going to be able to recover from this or that happiness is no longer a word that you can be associated with. But the reality is life will go on and your journey through grief will take you to a place where you're able to find happiness again in different ways. And it won't be the same as Matt was saying, but you are going to be able to live on and you are going to be able to be happy. It's just going to take you a while to get to a place where you can think that's a possibility. And then when you get to a place where you think that's a possibility, you'll be ready to start trying to make it something that happens. And it's a very, very well articulated, much better than I could. But so let's go back into that headspace then that we've returned home. Yeah. I suppose it's then telling people isn't it? Telling like who didn't you tell us you've got the initial people that you have to tell. And then I think it's that you know the series of conversations and I remember actually I did all of the telling really to try and take that away from something that Darya had to do. But there's still people you've got to tell work you've got to tell neighbors as you were saying you've got to tell. The extended family friends, how do you do that? Is it your text piece? Is it a WhatsApp message? Is it a telephone call? Is it a Facebook status update? You've updated everything else on Facebook? Do I let people know on Facebook that we've lost the child? How do we go about this? I do not think it's whatever feels right for you. To be honest, I'm not a massive fan of big announcements on Facebook. And I wouldn't break the news that I've lost the baby on Facebook. But that's because that's not right for me. It might be that there's you know, listen is out there and that is they feel comfortable doing that and they can articulate it better. Then do it. But I think we told people over the phone mainly. There's a few face to face conversations with neighbors and stuff like that. And we didn't tell all our neighbors because some of them just obviously put two and two together and what's out what happened. Yeah, and it was kind of not it was not talked about it was sort of acknowledged. If that makes sense, it wasn't a conversation that we needed to have. And I think it's probably because the neighbors realized that it would be really upsetting for us to have it. So they didn't you know, they didn't ask us questions about it. Who else would we tell them? I just a bit random. I remember having to tell. So at the time we lost Daisy, we had a load of stuff in self storage. And when we'd. But and sort of signed up for the self storage and the lab that did it with us. We were talking to him about you know, expecting a baby. And that we had I think we had a scan you know, the next week and stuff like that. And then I went into. I went into do something at the self storage. I think I was putting something away or I was getting something out from the self storage. And it was a few weeks after we lost Daisy. And I mean, oh, you know, hi. Hi, yeah, even I saw your hospital a few weeks ago. You know, I was I wasn't sure if your wife was giving birth. Oh, yeah. And I just turned around and I was like, yeah, she was. We lost the baby. And he just went, oh, I'm really sorry about that. But it was I kind of he didn't give me time to think about what I said to him. I just said it was probably quite not my opinion, but it just came straight out. And that's. And that's going to happen, isn't it? Like, you know, and people will be listening in who've gone through those similar situations. So it's just mouth and tongue moves faster than your brain does. And it just comes straight out. Yeah, people throw you off guard. And it's like that question that you'll get as well. I thought about having any more kids. And it's like how do you deal with that? How do you? We probably come onto it in a few episodes of time, but it's responding to that. And I think we just go, yeah, we do. I don't think we I don't think we told anybody close face to face. Yeah, I don't think we told anybody close face to face. We are. I remember sending a member calling a few people and doing doing the phone call rounds. I think I did most of it via text. I think I remember seeing in fact, I'm I know exactly what I did. I'll work in communications. So crafting a message is my day to day. And I remember Daria being obviously, I suppose in capacity, she was out cold basically in the delivery room with us. And Paloma was by this point, it'd been bathed and stuff and was in a car. And I remember just sitting in the chair next to Daria while she's just resting. And I'm writing this message out. I've probably got it. I must have it. I must have it on the phone somewhere. I'm not going to read it like. But I remember sitting there and I'm writing, I'm writing this message out. Telling people that that Paloma had been born but had died. And yeah, and I think we told most people that way because I kind of wanted it out because the problem is everybody's waiting to find out. Yeah. And he's waiting for good news and I remember like, we're a very, very public. Couple with everything. I remember tweeting tweeting in the morning That the contractions that happened and that it was coming. Yeah, it was coming. The baby was coming And then just nothing so I thought it's like dead silence for ages But yeah, I don't I don't remember having a lot of face-to-face Telling people face-to-face now it happens all that I mean not all designed but a lot of the time you tell people face-to-face now I'm gladly any Yeah, I'm thinking back We yet we at I actually sent Two messages I actually said because obviously we there was a A delay with us finding out and then we a few days later we had to go in And go through a delivery process. So I remember telling people We've lost the baby. There's couldn't find a heartbeat. You know been for a scan. They can't find a heartbeat We're having to go in in two days time and you know deliver and then I remember sending out a message saying Beautiful baby boy Harry Dezley Was born at this time and just part of I think I've you know born sleeping At this time so kind of still That message that people expect to receive when a when a baby's been born um, but I know certainly with Lauren's mom and dad we told We told them over the phone almost straight away but then we we They were looking after Freddie when we were going for the scans So we we had to tell them face-to-face they witnessed us telling Freddie face-to-face And then my sister we told over the phone um Purely because she was looking after my aunt at the time. We had quite serious dementia Yeah, so I wouldn't have really been in a proper thing to do face-to-face um But there we had like almost two messages with Harry and two messages with Daisy of You know that initial the shock message we pulled it of They couldn't find a heartbeat and then the message that we're later of You know Lauren's given birth to Harry Lauren's given birth to Daisy um And I think that's probably us trying to kind of normalise it thinking back about it but um Chris it's a yeah probably is me trying to kind of normalise it but um Yeah, so we didn't really have to tell that that many Family members once we'd come back home from That like delivery um Because they already knew because we'd already told them about the birth Yeah, um, it is just uh I say the random is it is just the randoms like the bloke in the self-store place that throws you or Like the bloke that you used to work with that you'd sing on the ice treat a few months ago That kind of thing um That that is that that's such a good point. It is it is those who are so out of the loop But for them they still remember that you've been pregnant. I had one at uh And we'll talk about returning to work at some point but I had one um At work in a boardroom In an external meeting in front of like Probably 10 or 15 people in the office um and it couldn't have been long after I'd been back I might have been back like a couple of weeks maybe less than that so people in the office knew but people in the um People the the the external speakers we have come in to give an presentation I've seen them about two days before um Paloma was due And then they came in and like almost as the meeting began one of the guys lent across the table and it's like oh, you know Last time I saw you it was like the day before huge from congratulations as it filled being a dad And like in front of in front of Everybody in the office. How did you do with that? I just panicked and I just kind of just went oh I was like oh um I know the baby died that was like oh and you know when like it was just like the most awkward thing And I think he said I think he said I like my condolences Or he said And I I can't remember which one it was but I remember sitting in the chair thinking Just feeling so upset and then I had to sit In this meeting Whilst all anybody's really thinking about is what's just happened right in front of you Yeah, yeah, and he kind of come up at the end and it was like look, I'm really sorry That you know that that and I was like yeah, I don't worry about But that was that was the after that's the worst time. It's happened to me Was was that time that was pretty rough Yeah, I remember A weird one for me also apart from the self-storage guy was um Tell him a magic club And when I say what where So I'm gonna get my geek on now, but obviously one of my hobbies is a little bit of closer magic And I'll belong to a club at the time Where we used to practice magic and we used to go out and do outside shows. I'll don't brush it. I don't brush it either Matt tell us more um And what I'm saying yeah Um, I'm a magician what can I say Uh, and I remember telling the guys at the magic club and needless to say at the time I was Early 30s. I was one of the youngest ones there so you can imagine what kind of magic club it was it was a like it was held in a A small conference room above a community centre in East London um And I think the average age of the people in this magic club was probably borderline geriatric um Sort of 50 to 60. Yeah, and I remember telling telling telling never about it. It just being like it just turning to like just massively awkward because as you can imagine, you know, you go in the room the some of the guys are there some of the guys are coming in And you have a little bit of small talk used to meet every two weeks She had a little bit of small talk catching up and it was always hard here Has Laura has a pregnancy And it was literally one after the other um I bet you know, yeah, that was a bit And I think I just like scripted it in the end Or just like, oh, yeah, you know Unfortunately we lost the baby unfortunately we lost the baby unfortunately we lost the baby we're both doing fine blah blah um Yeah, so It's me getting my geek on the seed this week about magic Yeah, Joe Geeker. Yeah, Joe Geek on last week about Star Trek. I certainly did um So You said we're back we're back at the house yeah And obviously you've got the Friends coming round and family coming round And it's always that kind of how when you want them to come do you want them to come immediately? Do you just want to be on your own? Every I mean everybody's going to be different and the you know People listening in will be thinking I really want my family round I want that you know that support bubble and others will be thinking I don't want I don't want anybody around me Ha what's what's the best thing to do? If they're gonna be supportive you want them round if they're not you don't It's just simple as that it ultimately like Just Share it sort of straight down the line is if they're gonna support you yes come round if they're gonna be unsuppulsive Then don't come round and what and especially I think especially with This is one of the things that really wound me up when we had Fredy and when we had Lily Was it family members who'd come round and they'd want to come around and see the baby But then you'd end up burn one you haven't we had a new ball at that point We ended up with like a kitchen full of light empty cake plates teacups Yeah, stuff everywhere with clearing up like it was almost like you're hosting a party And it was kind of almost a little bit like that with With Harry and Daisy with that we didn't actually have that many people come round um And we probably and I've got I've got to say actually having listened to your story When you told me told it you know last last week or the week before Was what really I think what was a A recurring thing for me was the amount of support you had Yeah, like from like you say about you know that you said last week about you that um, you know you and Darry were planning a home birth And then you'd obviously gone through You know Pelloma had been delivered at that that Queen's hospital and then you were at the point of going home but you had friends come around and they thought Clear away the birth and pull and get rid of everything that would have because that would have been a horrible shot So walk back in and see the birth and pull, wouldn't it? Yeah, I don't know how would a copese in that that was that was incredibly It's a boy. Do you know what the other thing which was amazing was like I think one of the Iris friends Did a load of home cooking for us and just bought it over and just shoved it in the freezer so we didn't have to cook or think about that Somebody just I think it was one of her friends. I think I'm sure it was Holly, but it might have been one of the other girls just did a massive food shop Yeah, just dropped it all off and it's stuff like that that I just wouldn't afford and I suppose what I'm saying is If you're listening to this and this has happened to a friend of yours or if it ever happens, you know to someone you know God doing something like that was so helpful Which I'd have never thought about but having like not having to go out and you've got that story Which I know you mentioned a couple of episodes ago about just going randomly into a shop afterwards and just spending loads of money on stuff You didn't can't even remember what it was But I think I think someone do that shop for you and getting those essential See you don't have to leave the house Yeah, I think I think I think that word support But I think people read into it a little bit too much sometimes and I think people I Think I think people panic when they are if they are asked to support someone that has gone through baby loss And I think people think well actually What what what was support look like in this like in this scenario? Mm-hmm And like the last thing me and Lauren wanted Was we didn't want people to come around to the house and sit there and be sad with us? Yeah, that's not supportive That's just you know, I kind of viewed that as that's just kind of dragging us down as well That's not helping to you know, although you're not going to take the pain away. That's not helping to lift our mood That's just dragging us down and just depressing us even more but like you say the things like doing a food shop Making sure that you haven't got to worry about what you're gonna cook for dinner in a Maybe helping out with the school run if you've got siblings. Yeah, that's another thing suggesting actually Do you know what I mean just a little like the little things like that Like you know, you've got picture in your car. I'll go and put picture in your car. I'll go and do this for you. I'll go and do that for you Just kind of almost you know almost kind of protecting you from the outside world That's I think what would have what would have been really helpful for us and we perhaps didn't actually Thinking about it. We didn't actually get that get that much And I think it's because people didn't know how to and that is it like Like we talk about well, I mean we frequently talk about the fact that no one prepared us for this But no one has your friends or family to do the after-muff of this no one really kind of There's no guide out there and in some ways we're kind of hoping this is that guide is saying you know These are the things that you need to do. This is what practical support and help looks like yeah And I mean what fun yeah, sorry. I mean one of one of our biggest supports was my sister And he's probably mine and Lauren's best friends and the only reason they knew how to support us was because they've been through exactly the same thing Not exactly the same thing, but they've lost a you know their baby grace was was born was was born sleeping and Yeah, so they knew how to they knew what we needed because they've been in the situation where they needed it Yeah, whereas I think you know other people necessarily Won't understand how to support someone because they haven't been through it Which is you know, and there's no there's no slight on people that are trying to support Dear loved ones for some sure they're trying to support them as best the camera hopefully if they listen into this podcast they'll They'll pick up some some tips on how to do it and I think The other thing is like don't be silent like that's yeah, like just don't don't think that I don't want to hear from me because we do Yeah, and although you can say the wrong thing Just hearing from people is really important in that moment because I've got so many friends and Family members who just didn't say anything and he just went Radio silence because they were so worried about saying the wrong thing so many of them and You know, it's taken me a long time to Move past that yeah, and And yeah, so you just kind of have to be there really show up You know, it's that first of all isn't it show up be there Yeah, and just be and that support like as you say very rightly Matt Just be support be supportive yeah, yeah, and that's all you can really do and it'll be fine Yeah Exactly exactly it's not home and that like you say people worry about saying the wrong things But I accept now that the people that said the wrong things to me We're saying the wrong things for the right reasons yeah, and But and you know, I'm on I'm up. Place now. We're actually sit back in our school Yeah, they said that but why did they say that what were they actually? Trying to say they weren't saying it to be intense to you know like that but how everything happens for a reason Like you want to tell me that's how I'm saying why give me a reason why this has happened Did you they're not saying it they're trying to give you a little bit of comfort and people fall back on cliches because when you don't have anything to say You try and think of what's the nearest thing I can say that I think sounds right? Oh Fucking no the cliches I heard yeah, but at least at least Those two little words at least you've got to at least you've got two children. Yeah At least you're all right at least Lauren's all right Yeah, he just went shut up But that's probably not not something you should ever say to someone that's lost Not what what kind of loss they come through just from our personal point of view never say at least I mean I totally get you, but that's my point. I think people in the moment just don't know what to say um And I remember I remember not long. Oh, maybe it was like maybe about six or seven months after we'd lost Paloma Someone in my family had lost a member of their family Mm like I'm dad. I think it was and I remember Hearing the news and then having to write a text message to say oh, I'm really sorry that this has happened to you And I'll sit on the couch with Daria and I was saying I've been staring at my phone for an hour and a half time to write this message and I cannot find the right words to say and All I go on about is how people don't say the right thing about the fact that we've lost And I've gone through this or I'm going through I've lost someone Exception close to me And I'm moan about the fact people don't say the right thing and I'm sitting here and I've no idea what to say to anybody And it was at that moment. I really kind of reflected and said I said so like I can't keep moaning about people not saying the right thing because I Don't know what the right thing to say is and I've lost someone and I think You just have to show that you care and that's the true. I was I was just gonna ask you what do you think the right thing to say some of those lots of papers? Because the worst thing to say is nothing Yeah, it's a worst thing to say Yeah, what do you say being silent doesn't help anybody? It just makes things more awkward and actually you can't just sit in there going like Why haven't you said anything and then actually that becomes the toxic part because you just you go from being up Well, not you go from but you're angry about the fact you've lost the kid and they just pissed off that they haven't done anything about it Yeah, I think at knowledge Agnolaging like you are sorry even though it's nothing to do with you but like I'm so sorry that you're feeling this way I think the other one is around Like oh, I you know Here's a good one so Daron up Daron. I had a I say discussion. It was probably a route given the heat of the moment and everything She didn't like it. She didn't she didn't like it when people would say I can't imagine what you're going through or I can't imagine you what you're going through and I really like that as a phrase You're shaking your head I can imagine I can't imagine Both because I think you can use but you can use both as a positive and a negative in depends on which way you're I'm not sure about that. I think if someone that's come up to me After we'd lost Harry and Daisy and said I can imagine what you're going through. I think I'd probably punch him in the throat But I think but you got like I can it but this is where we're different and isn't it because I think I can imagine what you're going through It's really difficult because I can't imagine it is I can't replicate what you're feeling But I can understand that what you're feeling must be horrific. Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think but if someone just comes in and said I can imagine what you're going through I've probably just gone, no, sorry, boom. And that, whereas I think if someone says, I can imagine what you're going for is really, really difficult. I don't know how to support you. I'm not sure how to support you, but I'm here for you. I think that's probably a good thing to say. - I'm here for you. - Oh, it's really important. - Yeah. - And also, I think in that immediate aftermath, the easy thing to say to someone is, especially for a dad, right? He's a, oh, let me know if you wanna go out for a beer. - Ah, ah, ah, ah, to the amount of text messages I got. The amount of text messages I got. Oh, let me know if you wanna go out for a beer or if you need me, you know, let's grab a pint. I thought, you think, you know what, I do really need you. I really need you. But I don't wanna have to be texting you when I feel ready. I kinda want, what I really want is someone battering me all the time, saying, how you doing today, you're right, even if you don't text back, is everything all right? Can you help? Is there anything I can do? Even if you're not texting back, because, and checking in every couple of days, 'cause I had a friend of mine who lost his dad in the last couple of years, and I'm gonna be thinking, I'm gonna be really proactive about what happens, and I'm gonna message him when it happened. I'm messaging my cup of zezet and I'm messaging him about two weeks later. And I said, I know it's been two weeks, but I know my difficulty season, you know. I actually probably said, I can't imagine what you're going through. But, having not lost the dad, so, but I can imagine what that's like. - Yeah. - And checking on him a couple of weeks later, to really say like, you know, even though you're not thinking where I'm here, like if you need me. - Yeah. Yeah. I think if you've been through it, then say to someone, I can imagine what you're going through. So if I think if I was trying to support you, then I would say, I can imagine what you're going through. Because I can imagine what you're going through. But I think if you haven't been through it, don't say that, but it's funny you say about like going out for a beer. But I can't remember how soon after losing Harry, it was, but one of my mates took me for a curry, and I'll be here. But just because I think he will only be to just get out of the house. How was that? Oh mate, it was awkward as fuck. - Was it really? - Like it was proper awkward, yeah. Because we didn't know what to talk about. Because it was that kind of, you know, he wanted to support me, but didn't really know how to support me. And then he ended up saying things like, oh really, you couldn't really afford free kids. - Oh, of course. - And it was like mate. And I thought, because it's my mate, I turned around and said, mate, shout out. - Yeah. - And there's like, oh sorry. - I see. - I think, I think I know exactly when the first time I went out was. I went to the dance. - Did you? - Yeah, Ali Pally, we had a dance ticket's booked. And it, and Palo Mord, obviously, she passed by then, and I'm trying to think if it was before after the funeral. Because the funeral was about a month later. Maybe it was a few days out. Maybe it was a week or so after the funeral. And I had the tickets and like, I hadn't been out for a drink. And you know, and you're just born, I just, and I hadn't really drunk at all, actually. I purposely didn't drink after losing her. So I didn't have any alcohol at all for a while. And I had the tickets and I thought, you know what, I'll still go because I needed to get out of the house. - Yeah, you're talking about drinking. Like me sitting here now, thinking about it. I don't think I've actually gone out properly on the piss since we lost Harry. So 2017, I've probably not gone out and got like, drunk and gone out on the piss since then. - Why is that? Is that coincidence? Is it purposely, it's hard to do that? - I've not said it's because I'm mature, but we both know that I'm not very mature. - No. - It's not because I'm mature. - I don't know if it's a penis. - Is it because you're like a friend? - Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I'm, yeah. 'Cause we've got no mates. - That's probably a little, being alone and taking it difficult to go out and so slide. - Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, thanks mate. - But I don't know, he's been trying to, especially like, it's like 17 to long time. It's a long time. - Yeah. - I'm not sure why. - I wonder what I'm gonna be, I'll be interested to hear what other people did in that respect. Especially drinking, 'cause actually, at no point did we talk about this beforehand in terms of any planning, but actually that, for a lot of people turning to alcohol or drugs, is something that they do in times of crisis and in times of real depression and anger and grief. And then-- - I mean, don't get me wrong, I drink. - I don't know. - I'll have a drink, but I've not been out with the sole purpose of going out to get drunk. I don't think, I can't think of any any examples of when I've done that. - I might be wrong, someone on my own might be listening to this podcast and go, "Oh, what about that time you went out and ended up in a bush kind of thing?" - No. - But what I think you've sparked there is the discussion around coping mechanisms for grief and depression. - Yeah. - And a lot of people will turn to alcohol, and I'll be really surprised if there wasn't listeners out there who had gone down a darker turn than we obviously went, both went down after losing a child. - So yeah, I've been keen to hear from people if that is something that they experienced. Because maybe that's something we need to, maybe that's the topic that we need to cover, Matt. - Probably is. - Yeah, the vices that help you get through depression and anger and grief and that has that sparked it for anybody. So if you are listening and that has happened to you, or you're an expert in this area, we'd love to hear from you. It's at that still standing on all the different social media channels and that's still standing [email protected]. - And also, from a, so we talked about this last time with regards to midwives and medical staff, how do they cope with going through what we've been through? - Oh yeah. What are their coping mechanisms? Because if you're advocates that, bombardment of grief every single day. - Yeah, that would be different. What, yeah, I'll be interested if there's, like I say, a midwife who's dealt with what we've been through regularly, how do you cope with it, how do you? What phrases do you use to support the family? - What are you saying that moment? Yeah, it's a great point. - Yeah. - Well, what do you do? - Yeah. - Got off in a little tangent there from where we'd sit out. - Hey, well, that's just what we like. So, that's fine. - Yeah, that's fine. - So, we can do that. It's our podcast, we can do what we want. - This is true. - What, technically, that's still standing with my idea. - Well, you may not, - You may not, you may not mention that for colour, or for the episodes. - You manage to string three words together, which is your personal best. And then I've kind of taken it from there. But yeah, that's cool. - I've allowed you to take it from there. And we are going off on the tangent, right? So, going back to, so we talked about, I suppose that what brought us onto that subject was randomly having to tell people afterwards, right? - Yeah. - But also what, I suppose in that first week, we've talked about having friends and family that come around and when's the right time to do that. And I think for everybody, that must be different. - Oh. - But the person that is, or does often come around off that point, is the health visitor. - Yeah. - So we had a bereavement midwife, Louise, that came around. She came around a few times in the first couple of weeks afterwards, I'm sure she did. And that was helpful. And especially just to like check on Dara's health as well alongside how we're doing and how we're coping. Did you have something similar, Matt? - We had a bereavement midwife, called Debbie. And then we had a health visitor called Wendy. And they were both brilliant. But then we also had a midwife from the village midwife team who didn't even bother to come around and see us. - Oh, that's right. - Basically, phoned up Lauren. And this was after we lost Daisy. So after losing Harry, we were still getting support from the bereavement midwife and the health visitor. And then we lost Daisy and we sort of carried on getting that support. But then we had a phone call. And I can laugh about it now, 'cause it's, you know, from the village and midwife team. And they were talking, into Lauren about the pregnancy of DATY and they kept using the phrase non-viable. And they kept saying, oh, so it was a non-viable pregnancy. Also, it was a non-viable pregnancy was it. Also, it was non-viable. Oh, it was non-viable, was it? Oh, okay, so it was non-viable. And I could hear the conversation just four or five times I mentioned it. And in the end, I think Lauren turned around with, no, no, that wasn't non-viable. I lost my baby. Yeah. And it's just like very, very quickly, the conversation kind of ended because I think the midwife had kind of been put in her place. And I just put that down to lack of experience on the midwife's part because I can't honestly believe that anyone that's entered into the profession of being a midwife, which is an area, let's face it, it's one of those compassionate, compassionate professions, I think, could use the phrase non-viable to describe a still path. So I'll just put it down to lack of experience and lack of understanding of the bigger situation, I think. But I'd like that to, that's a real point in memory of mine. It's just remembering to say, yeah, so it's non-viable. And this was like two or three days after we'd given birth to Daisy. It's horrible how some of those phrases stick with you. Yeah, it's a horrible phrase. Yeah, and it's up, I can't stand it now to this day. Listen, yeah, it's non-viable, I hate it, absolutely hate it. I can't think of any other phrases. Right. What about at least? Yeah, what about any of the people? That come around, was there anyone else that come around that first couple of weeks? I'm trying, all the first week was saying, trying to think if there was just family, really family, friends. Yeah. No, it was just family, friends, I think. And also, I think you said something earlier about when people would come around and like, just leave you with a mess to clear up. Yeah. Again, a lot of dark, I think, Sean in particular, and then there as well, but come and do the washing up, that was so helpful. Just like how you know, somebody can just like, because your mind's just somewhere else. Yeah. That's so important. You're just not functioning, are you? And it's like saying, lots of things about you, you know, it sounded like you had a lot of support with regards to that. You know, you, yeah, you're just not functioning. You need, you need help. But then we had, we had a lot of support from Daru side, but all in it said we had a massive amount of support from our side. Yeah. Really? I don't think bloke's that great of that sort of stuff. I'm down, it's a stereotype, but I just don't think they are. We all wasn't really, and no one was really reaching out and going, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I've got, like I said, an awful lot of, do you want to let me know when you want to go for a beer? Or, that wasn't like it. And I think I've got, well, I know I've got to make some really close to it, but just, but then it's what I said to Daru, I've been, I think I've been terrible. Like I'm a really, really sensitive guy. And like I'm, like emotionally would, you would think I would be amazing at this if it happened to one of my friends. I don't think I'd have been that good. I don't, I, I now would, now I would be superb, but I don't think, yeah. If this had happened to a friend of mine a year before, I don't think kind of any, I would have had any understanding about how hard it was to support someone, or what support they needed. And this is coming from someone in myself who I think should have known, but I just don't think I'd have been there for them. In the way that I would have wanted them to be, which is why I think a lot of people lose friendships when they're going through stuff like this. A lot of people end relationships when they're going through this in terms of their family ones. And we'll talk about how difficult it is to maintain a relationship through this stuff anyway. That's the way it is. But I, I would not have known how to help someone who'd lost their kid. I would not have known how to do it. I wouldn't have known the right thing to say. I'd have had to go at it, but I'm not sitting here in no way saying I'd have not been out of the park and I'd have been the right friend. I don't know exactly what to do. I'd have been amazing. So I just don't think I would have. And that's why I think when, especially now we're in a much better place, or both us, Dara and I emotionally, but remember at the time, there being a lot of anger and frustration around the way that friends had helped and supported us. When I was pretty quick to go, actually, I don't think I'd have done a great job. And so not holding on to that feeling of anger or frustration or disappointment even let down. There's certain people I think you should have done better, like you should have done better. But on the whole kind of going, I don't think I'd have done that much better job. I probably would have done maybe 20, 30% better, but I wouldn't have been 100% better than what people did. - What you're like is funny, you say that. Because I mentioned this before, my best mate had their daughter Grace. And that was probably a year before we had Harry. And I didn't know what to do. I wasn't very, I wasn't as good as I could have been because I didn't know how to, but if I was to do it now, I would, you know, like I say, I wouldn't smash it out of the pot, but I'd probably know how to support him better than I did at the time. Yeah, you kind of, as time goes on, you do kind of learn to not forgive and forget, but you just realize what people, that actually a lot of people feel your loss, I think. - Yeah, perhaps more than you realize initially. - Yeah, I completely get that. And I know certainly from Dara's side, some of her friends have really felt it, like really felt their loss, like losing, almost, no, it's not, but like, you know, losing one of their own. - Yeah. - But I think that's what I'd say to anyone listening, about that kind of judging friends and being angry at friends, especially if you listen to this four, five weeks after you've lost a child and you're sitting there thinking, they still haven't text or they haven't gotten involved. - He's really, be reflective. And I'm able to be reflective because it's two years later, for me. - Yeah. - But be reflective and just say actually, no one knows how to deal with this. And there's no courses in how to deal with this. And life doesn't prepare you now to deal with this. And there's nothing out there that really tells you what to do, which is why we're doing this bloody podcast, but just try not to lose friends and lose a baby as well. - Yeah. So I think the main thing to consider when you're talking about the first week and I said this at the beginning of this podcast and I reiterated it, what I think is probably a good point to end it is that you will find a new normal, but don't push yourself, don't rush yourself, allow yourself to find that new normal, but allow yourself to find it in your own time. And on your terms, not on anyone else's terms, it's gotta be on your terms. You've gotta find that new normal. Because you will, I have Liam has plenty of other people have. So it's like I said at the beginning, it's not something aimed at trying to depress you. It's just to let you know that you will need to find a new normal and you will find that new normal. Just give yourself the time to do it. So I think we're pretty much done with what we wanna say on this episode, aren't we, Liam? - Yeah, and I think what you just said, there's really poignant about taking time because at this stage you're only on week one, and there'll be a week two and a week three, and then there'll be 52 weeks. And I know we're gonna do one later on around anniversaries of losing a child, but the thing about us talking about the first week is that there will come a moment when it dawns on you, or there'll come a moment when you have the conversation with your partner. And it'll be, it was a week ago today. And that will hurt, and you may cry, and that may be a trigger for you because it was one week ago, it was seven days ago. And I'm, you know, and you'll get this, as I said, when it's a month ago or six months ago, or 12 months ago, or wherever along the way it was for you. But the first time you'll probably get that is, it was a week ago that happened seven days ago. And in that moment, as bad as that is, you're seven days into your journey of coping with grief. - Yeah. - And you've made it this far, and you're gonna make it to 14 days, and you're gonna make it to three weeks and a month, you will get through this, and we're here for you. - Yeah, absolutely. And as Liam said, where you can contact us if you wanna. Discuss anything with us if you want our support if you want our advice And that is on at dad's still standing on Facebook Instagram and Twitter And you can email us at the dad's still standing podcast at gmail.com So thank you so much for listening We really appreciate you taking the time we'll be back in No time at all with another episode where we'll be talking about all things baby loss And we look forward to sharing that with you. So from myself Liam and from Matt We really really look forward to To speaking with you soon take care of yourselves Bye Music for this podcast has brought you by Nivell