Retreat Rhythms: Monthly, Quarterly, and Annual Practices for Renewal with John Drury

Sometimes the hardest part of focus work is not the work. It's getting your brain to agree that you're going to start working now. Brain FM is functional music designed to support focus sessions. It's not magic. It just lowers the friction to the on ramp of focus. And if you go to BeyondTheTedulist.com/BrainFM, you can get 20% off with my link. Again, go to BeyondTheTedulist.com/BrainFM, get 20% off your gunna love it. Or go click the link in the show notes to get that 20% off. I've been using it for years. Trust me, this is a game changer. Again, BeyondTheTedulist.com/BrainFM for 20% off. Hello and welcome back to BeyondTheTedulist, a podcast about productivity. I'm your host Eric Fisher and in this conversation we are continuing to revisit a previous conversation that I had. This is part two with my friend Dr. John Druey. And in part two we're continuing to talk about the rule of life and move from the big picture ideas we introduced in part one, which if you miss that, go back to the previous episode and jump in there first. And then come back here as we continue to talk about the how-to of building rhythms that create space for rest, reflection, renewal, things like monthly desert days, quarterly and annual retreat rhythms, and the difference between vacation, visitation and vocation. I know you're going to love that. This conversation is full of practical wisdom brought by John and it's not a rigid formula, but again an invitation to start where you can and when you can and pay attention gain greater awareness and start to practice rethinking the Sabbath, weekly rhythms and overall avoiding burnout by building a more grounded life giving rule of life. I know I need more of that in my life right now and I think you do too. So enjoy this conversation with John Druey. All right. So picking back up here, we were talking about the Sabbath and that's the weekly. You said the daily, let's go to monthly because and this one I actually really, really like. I think this is one that might be, well, no, Sabbath would be the one that I would choose also because I really think that's important. But again, starting that's where I started. I mean, like you said two hours. That's the thing is the work week is called the work week. Yes. Right. And so that's an easier rhythm, I think. Some people might find our hearted to do the same thing every day and find a way to fit that in with like a daily thing, but like a once a week daily might be the last thing. Yeah. For some, it's early on, you know? Yeah. I mean, I did, when I started weekly, it was two hours Sunday afternoon. So it was on the first day of the week in my religious tradition, the way we would name that. And I went and like, I don't know, I read Harry Potter. It's all I knew how to do is read, right? I was in graduate school at the time, right? So all I did was just read something fun instead of instead of for work. Yes. But it's like, come on, I have a little imagination. It took me like a couple months of doing that to remember I was a musician. But I already had the time set aside. So it was easier to book. So I started asking my musician friends, hey, can we get together Sunday, two to four? Jam. Yeah. Jam, Sunday, two to four. It was like a pattern in my life for years. After graduate school, my early years teaching when I was with kids all the time, two hours is most I could ever protect. You know, the kids had me the other 22 hours of that weekend day, right? So it was really, it really stayed on Sunday, it slowly moved over because I had it to Saturday to the Sabbath for other reasons that changed. Partly as my kids got older and Saturday wasn't as horrible. Like Saturday's just really hard when your kids are little. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it felt like it worked to me. Which I could redo it and like be a little more present and just enjoy them, but whatever, you know, it's all water in the bridge now. But the pattern of like having the Sunday be kind of the first day of work, but not the first day of the job. So it was like, what's important to me? What do I want to work on a little bit today that's for my job or not for my job? But then I'm gearing up and then I'm not coming in Monday with that whole, you know, the Sunday night jitters and all that. So for me, I shifted it. But I'm not a fundamentalist about these things. It's like, like I said, I started with two hours and that was life giving and powerful. And for me, like I said, some people are right handed, some people are left handed. I haven't decided which ones which, but we'll say left handed, right? I needed to start with the stabilizing practice. And in the practice, discovered what was important to me, like music is like, has to be in my life or I'm not happy. I needed the space to even remember that, you know, because when I was young, I just did it. I just made it happen. Or music kind of is just the thing that disappeared. And I had to bring it back in with intentionality and purposefulness. But yeah, monthly, monthly is where my brother started and he learned this from my father who even wrote a little book. Now again, this is going to, I hope this isn't too alienating to some of your listeners, but it was called a day alone with God, a dog, DAWG. He wrote a little booklet, how to have a day alone with God that like was passed around among the kind of pastor world that we grew up in. And my brother picked that practice up when he was a young pastor in the 90s and always had one day every month, a weekday. He said, "Little kids, right, a weekday when he would go off and he would always did it in the woods. He's much more naturalist than me." He'd go off in the woods and just spend a day reading the Bible, praying, napping, and usually taking a long hike in the middle of it. And he did this just religiously in both senses of that word. He did this religiously for decades. I mean, he was doing this when I was still high school, right? He's older than me, five years older. And of course, he's a pastor, so that can count as a workday. But actually, the fact is, I've found that people usually can get a day off a week. I mean, it was called like a personal day. Once a month. It's once a month. It's not a big ask. And actually, it's usually built into your benefits. It most jobs. It's called a personal day. It's called a mental health day, which is code for, "I don't want to go to work today because I'm burned out." Well, maybe prevent that by having space just for you to exist, right? Again, you might need to be on the weekend. It might only be a half a day. At first, it depends. It's going to be different for different people. I did not incorporate this initially. I do it now, but I don't think in months I'm a weekly guy. Maybe that's being a teacher, so I just say. But I'm a very weekly rhythms guy. The month is like this meaningless concept to me. Bills, I guess, are monthly, but most of the things in my life aren't monthly. Maybe it's because I'm a man, I guess maybe for women. I think some people are thinking, "Okay, Sabbath is 24 hours, and that's weekly. A desert day is once a month." So, weekly versus once a month versus four times a month, that's one thing. But also, I think that the desert day, the day may be a misnomer to some people. That's, yeah, you're right. So, day alone with God, desert day is a term I learned from the Benedictines. The other name I used for it that I got from Ruth Hayley Barton is the nine to four retreat, she calls it. The nine to four retreat, nine a.m. to four p.m. And right there, some people suddenly it clicks. Oh, wait a second. That's possible. Yeah. Like, you're two hours for the Sabbath to start with. Because if your movement into a more holistic existence is just at the expense of, say, your spouse having to do more for your children, just for those who have families. I know not all your listeners do, but if it's just at the expense of your spouse, it's not actually holistic. It's just robbing from her for you. Right? Like, that's not holistic. It's got to be good for everybody. Right? And that comes back around where then you have to make up that person. So maybe I'm going to rob from my job once upon a time. And the nine to four is brilliant, right? Because what's the typical, like, I know people work way more than eight to five. But usually eight to five is the part of the reason we have to work outside of those hours is because we get interrupted so much during that eight to five. So that's another discussion that maybe we'll even get into. But that's usually when you're expected to be available, you know, is that eight to five. So maybe you have the kind of work where you need to touch base at the beginning and the end of the day, right? You need to do those emails or whatnot or those check-ins. That's fine. We don't have to be rigid about this stuff, right? But that nine to four, that says seven hours, right? That's a seven hour time. And this is more radical. This is a retreat. This is unplugging. This is radical. That's why I call it the desert day. This is the radical under stimulation day. Yes. This is the phone off unavailable thing, which sounds crazy. But again, you got a full hour in the morning and a full hour at the end of the day when you're accessible. That's reasonable. That's a reasonable request to make of your family, of your friends, of your community, of your co-workers that you would be available the first hour and the last hour of the day. In fact, this happens roughly about monthly when we have, I don't know, meetings or all those all day planning meetings, right? Right. And you're not usually as accessible during that time. You're accessible to people you're there with, right? And what are those usually for? Those are usually for more long-term, strategizing planning, right? Well, is the same kind of long-term health of the organism that is your body, just valuable, I would think so. So a seven hour retreat or the nine to four retreat, the desert day, the day alone with God, that day is so powerful. And airplane mode is your best friend. Maybe even leave the phone in the glove box if you're driving somewhere. Maybe if you're crazy, like me, even leave it behind. Because guess what? You know, we used to know how to drive places before we had GPS. Yes, I'm not going to, I'm not going to out them, but a friend of ours is father who's 20, 25 years older than us, something like that. He tells the story, our friend, that his father was suddenly freaking out because he had forgot his phone at home and they had left to go do something. And then he was like, how am I going to know how to get there? And I'm like, that's a hilarious story that we've gotten to that point. Yeah. That's a person who grew up majority of their life. I mean, and like us, like we grew up the first half of our lives at least with that. They were even dead most of their adult years with exactly. And they, and we've transitioned. And yet the habitualization of it. So yeah, that can be difficult for people. To me, I think of the monthly thing as a slightly more difficult thing, the Sabbath keeping once it's only difficult in the transition, once it's in place, it's just like, oh, this is what I wanted my weekend always to be anyway. Right. Actually, and some people already do it. That's why I'm saying like, you probably are already practicing this. All you got to do is do it on purpose. And you get more out of it when you do it on purpose. Yes. But this one, I tend to, I tend to think of as something that needs to be done with a little bit more seriousness is the benefit. I don't mean austerity and heaviness. But I mean, like have some really clear boundaries for yourself. And that radical under stimulation principle is what really that term that we used in the last episode is really key for that day. That's why I call it desert day. How am I going to take my stimulation down as close to zero as possible? And that's going to be really jarring. But it's going to be totally life giving and empowering. I mean, it seems like a waste of money, but like I always have a couple physical copies of like a little Sudoku book that you can buy at the pharmacy. Yeah. Because that's one of the things I do to kind of relax on my desert day. It's analog. It's analog. It's got to be analog though. That's I think I feel like such a stickler, but it really does make a difference because it's it's so under stimulating. It's pure just kind of like a mathematical puzzle. My wife does literal puzzles. She loves puzzles. Ravensburg or quality, those German engineered puzzles, you know, you get her in other companies like out of the paces don't fit together, right? You know, she she loves beautiful things. She'll do puzzles for hours, right? And that really does relax her mind. It's a low adrenaline flow state, right? Low adrenaline flow state. We usually think of flow state. It's a kind of high adrenaline style. Yeah. It's goal directed, right? Just a little bit more. Again, she's more goal directed than me as a person is where she gets more done. I suppose, but because the puzzle does have an end point, but the point isn't getting done. You kind of don't want it to be done. It's the process. Right. For sure. For sure. Yeah. So that kind of again, I don't know if it is low adrenaline. It might be high adrenaline, but it's it's low stimulation. It's an analog analog's key. The screens are intrinsically stimulating. It's why we call them screens. Because screens aren't evil. They're not bad, but they do stimulate physically. They have a physical impact on your eyes, your body, your brain. And so the de-screening is really powerful at that time. And you know, let's be honest, we are such we are always on our kids case for their screen time, but come on. Remember that ad when we were kids, we're the dad with the mustache finds the box of drugs and comes to the kid. And it's weird. Who taught you how to do this? And the kids say because you I learned it from you. I learned it by watching you. I mean, that's they know they're learning this from us. Yeah, they're learning this from us. Yep. We are screened. We are totally attached to those screens and we justify it. We think our use is the legitimate responsible form. You know, but it's the screen. The screen is is itself stimulative. So that radical under stimulation, some analog activities. Again, I take my discs. My I play disc golf. So I go to a town when there's going to be a golf course going to get on that location. Do we change it up? Because under stimulation, you want to maybe not go somewhere where you're exploring or but maybe you do. I don't know. You got to know yourself. Again, step one with stabilizing practices is getting them on the frickin calendar. Right. And then go find out. Find out what you are. Right. If you're someone who just gets so bored with going to the same place, you know, you might need to mix it up more. Or you might need to ask yourself, why do I need to be entertained on this day? Like what I'm I said, there could be a question you want to explore, but figure that out as you go. Lock in the time and protecting it, communicating with your coworkers and family. That's the number one. The cost does not have to be high. This is not overnight. This is just during the day. I usually go to a college campus on another town. Now, of course, I work at a college. So maybe I feel more comfortable on a college campus. But I got to tell you, it's the free retreat day is the college campus. Any adult can walk onto a college campus. And it will be assumed that you are there for some event. College campuses are going to open public spaces. Their libraries are usually almost always open. You usually don't have to show an ID to get in some do, but very few do they. You can even sometimes book one of the study rooms. Public library can work too. But there's some about a college campus. There's usually a lot of green space. There's usually a chapel. It's usually open all day where you can go and be silent for a little while. Even if you're not a super religious person, actually college campuses are usually comfortable with a variety of religious practice. Even the Christian ones kind of grasp that not everyone's cut the same way. Again, there are certainly some college campuses I would not recommend that would be really awkward and weird. But for the most part, you can walk onto a college campus and find a nice bench to sit on or a library to spend some time in. I just practice hour on hour off. I've seven hours and I spend either three or four of those hours, depending on how I structure the day, kind of doing something kind of on point as it were. So maybe that's prayer, maybe that's scripture study, meditation. I'm using a word on point so that it has application beyond the more religious kind of practice that shapes my life. I want to be honest about what it looks like for me, but I know these are human practices. So for some people, it could be contemplative thinking. Yes. It can be reading. Yes. If you don't get to read for your job, do it. I read so much for my job that I can't take books on my desert day because I read for living. I'm a teacher in a scholar. So I leave all the books behind. I don't even take my group of tests. I only take the Bible in English. It could be journaling. It could be that's where you do it. Always journal. If you're somebody who can't get into an journal all day, don't journal seven hours. Do not do it. Even set a timer. I keep a cool look and watch. I just have a junky old Casio. You might want to look into one of those for this day. It's worth it. I remember it. I told a student, you might want to get yourself a watch so that you can put the phone away because we'll use the need for alarms as an excuse to have the phone with us. Again, an airplane mode is sufficient for some, but even then you might just, I mean, you still got all your games, all the things we do to stimulate ourselves to not come face to face with ourselves. So, you know, like a little cheap watch or a little alarm clock. Take a nap. Yeah. Place it oku. Take a walk. Take a lunch with you. Fast if you want. I'm not the fasting where you're skipping a meal to get work done. That ain't fasting. That's just ignoring your body, but choosing to fast or not, I don't fast on my, I eat slow. It's like the one meal I have a month where I eat slow because I'm a fast eater because I'm usually talking with people enjoying the social life of which is fine. It's lovely, but once a month, I eat a lunch and I take my time and really taste everything and really, right? So just kind of, see that under stimulating. So you're paying attention to what the day is. So yeah, again, it wouldn't have to be college campus. I'm just describing what I do. You could go to retreat center. Sometimes retreat center is actually you'll let you come for like a 15 bucks for the day, you know, and then you have use of their grounds and then it's going to be much more silent, much more radical under stimulation. But a public park, of course, when the winter comes, that's why I like a college campus because then I can just go and hide in the library or hide in their chapel. Yeah. So you can find, you can experiment. Workplace chaos is real. That line's slip. In boxes multiply. Somehow the one person who can fix it is also the one who just gave notice when you need the right hire. This is a job for indeed sponsored jobs via to hire a new editor for this podcast. I wouldn't just say must edit audio. I'd want someone who understands conversational podcasts knows the workflow can handle chaos and lucky for me indeed sponsored jobs can cover all of that. And sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 95% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who will check all your boxes with less stress less time but more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed dot com slash podcast. Just go to indeed dot com slash podcast right now support our show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast indeed dot com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero. This is a job for indeed sponsored jobs. Even an Airbnb I think would work because the rates are so low. Even if you're not staying the night, I know when Mandy would go to her writing retreat days with her friends and she would book two nights, but only stay one night, but she booked two nights so they would have the room all the way till the right. Yeah, yes, exactly. And it was worth it. It's worth that extra money. It's probably, I mean, again, the way the rates go, they're super low. So it could be a very good like retreat kind of a thing. Yeah. So again, booking the times way more important, I think, than the location. That's an experiment. Find what works for you. And what works for you. I think the other important thing here is, and this applies to the things we've already talked about as well as things we're going to talk about, you might not necessarily walk away from a day. You look at it as an experiment and you kind of pick and choose and feel it out and do it again and again and practice. It's a practice that you practice. Multiple meanings of words. The best practice you can do is the practice you can do. Yes, but you don't get that. The one you actually can do. Yeah. So you just start doing it and you practice it. But I think the thing is, I know in talking, we've talked about just like you wouldn't necessarily look to a Sabbath, though it can happen, you're not looking to a daily, weekly, monthly, and the others will get to instance as some kind of lightning bolt moment is going to happen. In other words, expectation is the key I'm trying to get at here. The thing I always say about retreat is expect nothing, expect everything. So come in with not just low, but no expectations. This day owes me nothing. I'm just going to live it. I'm just going to be me because just my existence has value and the world's existence has value. We don't have to enter into an exchange of commodities where I give value to the world or the world gives value back to me. That's the work is a mindset and work all ism is the minor problem compared to work ism, which is an ideology that shapes our whole modern life that's deeply destructive. And one of the forms of resistance to that is is a retreat where you come in expecting nothing again, not low expectations, no expectations. And I owe it nothing. I just exist. That's the beauty of this day. And my discomfort with just existing and not accomplishing anything is precisely the thing that I'm seeking for that to be overcome. And that's one seeking to be liberated from. So that's not a problem to be solved. My frustration that I'm not getting anything out of this. That's not a problem to be solved. That's actually a disorder in me that needs to be reordered. I was like, Oh, how can I get something out of it? It's like, no, the fact that I think that way is the problem. Not the day. The day didn't fail me. And I didn't fail the day. I just have a disordered imagination about what constitutes value. And again, even if you can't do this monthly, even just do it once, although monthly is there's something about that rhythm that's against. I know some people who do kind of more like a six week just because of their life rhythms. That makes more sense to them. So there are other ways to do it. But a lot of we do a lot of things monthly, like if you if you go see a therapist, sometimes it's monthly. If you go get a massage, it might be monthly, you know, bills are monthly. There are certain things that are on that monthly routine. So if you can get it on your monthly, that can just be really powerful. And yeah, come in, expect nothing, but also expect everything. It's this wide open receptivity to surprises. So it could be that there is something significant, a breakthrough in insight that that might come. So don't fight it if it comes. But just know it to have a wide aperture to the possibilities. This might be the day when you do discover I need to quit my job and have a whole different like career. That lightning bolt could happen. But don't come in knowing what you think that's going to be. Whenever I go on a retreat thinking I want to get this question answered, or this decision made, I'm usually frustrated beyond belief. But when I come in, no expectation, but open expectation, anything can happen and not a strict plan of what I'm going to even do that day, a place and a time and the open space within it and see what emerges. There's all kinds of surprise, especially in the journaling. But again, don't journal a day, but there'll always be some some journaling. And it usually doesn't fail, but often the significance of it I don't discern until after the fact. Usually it's a week or two later. I'm like, you know what? I have different values than I had a week, you know, a month ago. And now I realize it was that thought that I had that afternoon. That was really just the tip of the iceberg expressing something changing in me. Because we're always developing and changing even when we're not conscious of it. It's not like you're only developing on that day. That's not your professional development day. You're always developing. And just sometimes you're more conscious of it. And there's a kind of raising of your consciousness that can happen on a day when you move toward radical under stimulation. Yeah. Is it bad that I when you said seeing it as a problem to solve that I thought, well, isn't seeing it as a problem to solve a problem to solve? Yeah. But through, yes, but through practice. Yeah, exactly not as oh, my goal is to solve this problem. So in the next six weeks, I mean, no, it's I'm going to keep doing this thing until it becomes me. Yeah. So it becomes part of the way my life has lived. Yeah. I mean, I won't mention this person's name, but they said to me once about a retreat feels like and they were saying, I know this isn't right, but feels like entertaining. It's like, I'm going to entertain myself and wait for a holy moment. And they were saying it as like kind of apologizing because that sounds great. But it's also like, no, don't entertain yourself. Don't stimulate yourself. Right. And don't wait for a holy moment. Right. Don't wait for something magical. Expect nothing. Expect everything. Just exist. Rest. Play. Be. Reflect. Do the practices that give you life. And what happens is what happens. Right. And it has value. Whether there were fireworks or not. Yeah. And who knows it might have more value if there weren't any fireworks. Because maybe it's your attachment to the fireworks that needed to be rooted out. Yeah. And you might not realize that. That's two months later. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that's three. Yeah. Yeah. Out of five. Daily. Weekly. Weekly. Monthly. So quarterly and annually. That's me for you. Quarterly is the one that you said you were kind of still. That's the aspirational one. Yeah. I mean, it's there. It is. I mean, it's there. It's just not consistent. It's that I do an overnight retreat. My wife and I've been talking about maybe doing that as something we do together to go on a quarterly because we've gone on a few kind of overnight more like retreat, not like an overnight like romantic date, like an overnight retreat where we're doing some more inner work, but talking about it together. Yeah. And we've done them and we love them when we do them, but we don't do them as much as we wish. So we've been toying with maybe moving in that direction. But for me, it's been on my rule of life for years. I say quarterly overnight, something where you do actually go overnight. And for me, that was just the same as the desert day thing. It's just a 24 hours instead of a 24 hour instead of a seven. Yeah. And that's totally doable quarterly. But again, that might be something to do with your spouse or with a friend or with your family, right? Just make sure it's life giving thing. Like you, you know, we went and got that we did one time. That was that kind of a thing that would fit a quarterly. Yeah, you're right to do maybe and you could mix up. You can do one with your buddies once a year, do something with your wife once a year, maybe something alone once a year, and maybe something with work friends where you do some work strategizing. Yeah. I mean, you could get creative. But some kind of quarterly, because there is something about going overnight because the thing about the one thing the nine to four is missing is waking up in that peaceful state. And what happens when you do an overnight retreat is it really, it's that waking up, you know, without an alarm clock with no kids running around, you know, like just waking up with just the freedom of the day awaiting in front of you, you know. And again, you may want to do that trick where you book both nights, even if you only spend one night. Again, just you don't have to pack fast, you know, Airbnb is your friend here. The rates, especially if you're doing it with multiple people. Yes. Like this place has four to six bedrooms. Yes. It's for each of us. It's 20 bucks a night kind of a thing. And then it's like, that's easy. And you go, we want to trade your Joe's and we went for games, trader Joe's. That's what we did. We didn't turn a TV on. Once I turned a Bluetooth speaker on just to have some music, but that way we wanted to have that. We wanted to listen to our friends. Yeah. Yeah. So we had some great meals and just conversations and just time outside and inside. And so what that looks like, but something, you know, something life giving that costs a little more money. Because up till now, everything I've talked about is basically free. Yeah. This is the quarterly would be the first one where you'd need to spend a little money because it's overnight. So again, not everyone has to do the over, but I think I think a quarterly overnight life giving practice. Again, like you can tell that one's a little less developed. But my hunch is a lot of your listeners in the business world. That's the low hanging fruit for some of them. Because that's not a big ask. They probably have some quarterly rhythms already built in just because of the, is that my correct the business world's a little more built around the quarter? Yeah. And I think it would be a little easier to fit it in and say it's a planning day. Once every three months versus even trying to fit in the desert day or the nine to four once some months, they might find doing that one. And then then with doing that, you don't even have to convince anybody. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You just say, okay, we're doing it. And the spouse is going to find, they're not going to find the quarterly and offensive to ask. That's a, you know, that's once every 12 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Even if things are a little, a little complicated with the spouse, you can probably pull off a, in fact, in fact, and this ties into it, you could almost, and I think I've actually done, actually, sneakily, I've done this where I've attached it to an existing event or conference. You're already going to, you just go a day earlier to or add a day, you know, front and back end, whatever. I mean, especially if you can say, oh, wait, so I have to already be here. Okay. Well, then let me comp that and have, you know, and work may even already cover that day for some reason. Because you're working extra hours. Yeah. Yeah. You had a conference exactly 20 hour days. I've done it. I've done it. So yeah, absolutely. Yep. So annual, what's that look like? Yeah. Well, this is where we might, this sort of applies to the quarterly, but it really applies on the annual is to introduce that distinction that we've talked about, not on the show, but you and I've talked about vacation versus visitation. And there's a third one. We'll wait on that one. Yeah. Second, but vacation versus visitation. Sometimes like from work's point of view, it's all the same. The days you don't, you're, you're using off that aren't sick days, right? But the idea that you might go on a vacation with your family, perhaps, right? But how often do we then just go and visit family? And maybe you really like your family, but it's not the same. Visitation generates different memories. It uses different energies. We've all visited family and called it vacation when we knew it was anything but. And in my experience, when the kids were little, the visitation meant a little more help with the kids. So that was attractive. You know, whereas you kind of on your own, I remember hearing a comedian talk about like on vacation when I put the kids in their seat and you know, get them all plugged in and then I go around to get in the car and start driving. That's my vacation. Just the walk from the target. I was just to say, yeah, isn't when they're little, man, it doesn't feel like vacation. Although it is. But again, vacation's not, it's time away from the job. It's not time away from work. The work of parenting is parenting is work. And there's that work job distinction. We have more work than we do just our job, but even our work's not our whole life. So yeah, vacation especially when kids are little are work, but it's the work of making memories. It's the work of quantity time. That's work that's worth the energy, but it does cost you something, but there are different memories, different energy. So remember to vacation and not just visitation and to know which is which and to value both because they both have their own value, but they're distinct. So we always try to know which is which and distinguish them a bit. And then there's the third was just the vocation. And vocation has a broader that can include like a work trip and you might take family on your work trip. Sometimes that's a sweet kind of less expensive way you only have to pay for their stuff or the housing's already covered. They just right. But as a family, we always let them know this isn't a vacation. This is vocation. One of us is working just like if we were home and one of us is working and the other one is playing with you, you know, you give them that space. We're doing that. We're just doing it somewhere else, which is fun, but it's not vacation in the same way, right? Yeah. And maybe it'll be attached to a real vacation. You'll add a couple days in the end. It'll be right. And you'll have that. I mean, when we when we would do work trips with my wife because she travels more for work than I do, we would have the clear mark when okay, now vacation proper has begun. And that's when the kids know what the expectations are of attention and affection from her. So making those distinctions can be really helpful and just know which is which. And for me, now I have the peculiarity of being a professor. So I work massive amounts of hours in my work week during the school year, but then I have much larger blocks of time of space in the summer, much of which is me doing work but at my own pace and my own self direction were instead of the rigidity of the class schedule and the demands of students during the year. So I have a lot more time, but nevertheless, in my older job, I didn't, you know, and I would take, I would always do a vacation, family vacation week, and I always fight and my wife and I would fight sometimes about this. Fight to make sure it was a vacation and not just visitation and not just attach to a work trip of hers, right? So I'd really fight for let's always have like a family vacation. Yeah. Some of that was probably just some masculine uptightness. I wanted something I was in charge of, you know, but that I was a father over. I don't know. It was probably things I should get over, but it was always important when we were when they were little or that we'd have that vacation. Most people do that, but like being intentional about that, saying that's part of my rule of life, notice this is another one where, hey, that's looking fruit. That's already there. So name it and own it and maybe celebrate it a little more as a gift that you have that week to do that. But then I always would take a full week retreat. Now that's crazy town. Most people aren't going to do that. That's okay. But I'm just going to say this, if you can go and do maybe a two nights away, you know, like a lot of full weekend, maybe at a retreat center somewhere, maybe a meditation retreat. If you're kind of more if you're more spiritual, but not religious as it were, you know, you could kind of do a meditation retreat or a directed retreat at a retreat center of some kind, or maybe go with some friends where you're going to spend the day alone and then hang out with each other in the evening and talk about what you've learned. I have a friend, I have a friend who did that. They'd go on a camping trip and they'd spend the day apart and then spend the they'd have breakfast and then they do their own thing all day and gather back for dinner, you know, and do the campfire thing. I like that. So there's lots of ways to do it. But that can't just be a buddy. I mean, they can be a buddy, but it's someone who's going to ask you tough questions. Yeah. Right? Someone who's going to ask all questions, right? And want to go deep and not just like check out in the evening, but really share from the heart what you've been experiencing that day and you both share and listen and not a lot of not a lot of crosstalk more just sharing. You may just talk for 20 minutes and they just listen and then maybe ask a pointed question. Here's what I'm noticing, you know, that kind of spiritual friendship kind of thing can be really powerful. I really believe deeply in the annual retreat beyond just family vacation. Now can sometimes be in the family vacation. I remember growing up one time my dad going off for two days. We were doing this long like two, three week vacation out west and then he went off for like two days in it and my mom and me and the kids went and did we ate fast food every day. My dad, he liked cooking camping, you know, kid cooking. So we went, we'd get fast food and junk food. It was so much fun, right? And uh, go see movies and kind of do the not because my dad was like the woodsman and like the usman we don't go do what tourists do, you know, we go to tour stuff for three days with my like two there's two, three days, two nights tour stuff with my mom and my dad was off. I think he might have been writing. It might have been a work kind of thing, but he was definitely alone. It was definitely a solitude time. So you can sometimes build it into the vacation. It could even be really healthy that way. I was going to say I know of a couple. He was a pastor. They'd go for their vacations and say, is this a his vacation or is this a her vacation? And you know, and I think it was that they were doing like one week there and one week somewhere else and it was maybe an alternating annually. But I think what you're saying is this you could do both in the same week. Absolutely. What phase one phase two, which phase are we in? Yeah. And I mean, for me, like we try to have usually our family vacation now. This this emerged over again, trial and error. I'm describing like 20 years of practice and maybe about 15 years of like really attentive, thoughtful practice. So it took time, but like we've learned, oh, family vacation, that's got to be after my annual retreat because I'm like the best dad in the world after my. I have dealt with some inner demons. I've got some clarity about what I need to be doing in the world. I've had that that solitude need that I just have as a five just met a deep level. So I'm ready to engage. I miss my family when I try to go on an annual retreat. You know what I mean? I didn't use to that was my problem that that got sorted out in 2017. Now I always miss my family on my retreat. I didn't force it. It just my heart changed. Something changed in me. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just for me, that's our pattern, right? I do my my annual retreat early July. Go to same place every year. Some people that would be crazy making. They want to go somewhere different every year. That's fine. I want the interior adventure and the stability of the familiar place. So I go the same place every year and we go on family vacation often just soon after that. And that's become a wonderful pattern, a stabilizing force in my life. And I don't count the days down to summer. I like my job, but I do have moments all year when I'm like, ooh, looking forward to having an annual retreat. Just this sense of like I need some space to I don't have space to work on that thing that I'm noticing in me. Yeah. I just don't have the space for it, but I will. And again, you're knowing it's coming. I don't inflict it on everyone else. It's like, oh, that's going to end. And you're not forcing like we said earlier, not, yeah, I've got that monthly day. I'm not going to force it and try to like hammer it to death through that time either or the quarterly like. Yeah. Of course, the great irony is that same policy expect nothing, expect everything that applies for that annual one to a man. Right. And that's what I wanted to mention and why I think an annual retreat, even if it's not as I mean, I go for eight days because I'm a freak, but I mean, total solitude. I meet with this viewer director once a day. that's it, no other human contact, it's craziness. But I'm a weirdo. Not everyone has to do that. That's not for everybody. But something annual that's a little more extended, even a couple nights, and there's something magical about two nights, I'll just say that, you can just trust me on that one. Something magical about at least two nights. So you wake up in a different place twice and you have at least one day you're waking up when you're not gonna pack your back, right? Somewhere long enough that you actually, quote, move in. So at least two nights, I'll just say it that and leave it at there. When you give yourself enough space to slow down enough, to experience the kind of slowness, the kind of natural pace the body has, when you have enough time to sink up with earth's rhythms, 'cause of course, run of the regulators of life is just the earth itself, and the way the sun comes up and down. So one of the things I do is I always sleep with white noise. You might too, I don't know. 80-D person, of course. Yes, yes. Stimulation, right? That is using a kind of appropriate level of stimulation to block out distracting stimulation. That's an appropriate practice. One time a year I don't use white noise and that's not my retreat, that's by design, okay? Interesting. And it's only hard the first night and it's fine after. Yeah. To allow myself to welcome every distraction, to not, you gotta go to a retreat center where you're not gonna get lots of stimulation. To hear the birds and I sleep with the blinds open, I always sleep with the curtains closed. I like it dark. So dark and white noise. In on my retreat, I have the curtains open, which means I go to bed when the sun goes down. I never turn my lights on in my room. So once the sun's gone, I don't have artificial light to stimulate me, keep me up. So even artificial light, though it's been around a long time, is a very foreign thing to the human body and most of it evolutionary history. It's very unnatural. Again, you need two nights to experience this. Again, if you're camping, it's almost automatic. As long as you don't, again, bring a lantern and all that easy junk, right? Maybe a fire, but that doesn't, that's the same. Doesn't stimulate the eyes the way the electric lights do. So I don't turn all my lights in that room. So I stay up late reading or doing Sudoku until I physically can't see it and then I go to sleep. And it takes a while to get to sleep 'cause I don't have that white noise. I'm hearing every little thing. And that's okay, I just get okay. I become okay with that. The fact that there's this noise 'cause I eventually fall asleep and it's fine. And wake up in the middle of the night sometimes and then find a way to go back to sleep. Not everyone has to do this. I'm giving an example of the kind of radical practices that I have no intention of bringing those back into my regular life. I love my white noise. I'm not interested in getting rid of it. It's just once a year engaging in something very different. And what happens in that space is I learn how to relax, how to exist as me without all the hats, without all the trappings. And it's on those retreats that I learn practices, activities, forms of prayer, forms of meditation, forms of thinking and being. I learn new ones that then make it easier to do these other things all year. Yes. So the nine to four, I kinda know what to do 'cause it's just a mini version of the big one in the summer. And so my monthly desert day looks different. Usually every year it changes a little based on new things that I tried out that summer. In this longer? Yeah. Oh, I learned, 'cause I usually learn one new thing. I mean, I've been doing the white noise thing forever. I haven't been doing the curtains thing. Yeah. That was a, that was, that was, No reason discovery. And I brought that in now to my quarterly overnight. I bring that curtains trick in. Yeah, just little things like that. So we talked about the two hands and you could go either direction or honestly, it's probably gonna be a mix of both at the same time. We've got all the different, you know, it was about 80% ironed out and 20% aspirational. And it sounds like that's where we're at. I think people have probably gravitated in these two conversations, well, this one conversation split over two episodes. They've probably gravitated towards one of the five. Time, structural pieces that they could try as an experiment. And so I don't think I even need to ask you. So what would you say to somebody to how to get started? Like they already heard one that I think appealed to them more. And they heard us talk about the how-to of it. And so honestly, it's really just about saying it's possible, it's doable. And the expectation thing is really, I think, the key. Yeah, along those lines I might mention, this is a little tactic I use whenever I'm to use the modern term consuming content. (laughing) I mean, from where I, you know, again, I work in religious circles, right? So like, I call this how I listen to a sermon. Of course, everything's a sermon if it's presenting. But yeah, content. When I'm consuming content, slash listening to the word, right? When I'm listening to a word from another, 'cause that's what this was, this was an exhortation. And it was inviting our listeners to say, hmm, consider some of this, right? So whenever I'm listening to a word, I always identify three things, not three points, but three categories. What's the one thing, the gratitude, the thing that, I'm being invited into that I'm already doing. And I say, thank you. That's already there, right? Then the second thing that's the challenge, okay. Yeah, I get that. That hits right across the plate. I need to grow in that area. And then the third thing, which I just call the awakening, that's the new horizon that is just foreign to me. And I'm not ready to start stepping into that. I'm opening up to learn more about it. Does that make sense? You might want to think even at the end of this podcast, like don't rush to the thing you need to do. Stop and say, which of those five, maybe a couple of those are already in place. And just kind of breathe a sigh relief. Why don't I work out every day or I go on a vacation every year and I love it. I look forward to it. Actually, I do a quarterly getaway with my buddies. Okay, you've got something, or I Sabbath in some sense, right? I just need to maybe mark it more clearly, right? You may have something and just kind of give thanks for that. And then second, you may have two things that are kind of stirring, recognize, does one seem like you could actually make a move on like this week? You could actually put something in your calendar. Within the next couple days, you could actually sit down and sort that out. That's the immediate action. That's that called action. And there might be something else that's brand new. You never even thought about it. Don't rush to do that. Just kind of sit that aside and like, ooh, I want to learn more about that, right? And just let that simmer for a while. Does that help that kind of frame work? Yeah. So it's the gratitude, the called action, and the ooh, let that one simmer. That's a new horizon. Don't rush it, you know? Yeah. Well, John, it's been great. We're definitely going to have the do this again. I love that. And you've got your own podcast. I helped you kick it off. Yes, I did. And then I eventually stepped out completely and that was, you know, I feel good about that. That's how it's supposed to go. Oh, yeah. It's not maybe not. It's hard, your producer was my producer for a long time. He also stepped away. Yes. I do not feel banned. This was all by design. No, that's the way it works. I have a new job where it fits to bring it in-house. So now it's part of the podcast network at the school. I would talk a little bit about what it is in case people are, in case it fits their niche, they'd be interested in that. It's called Fresh Text. It's been going for, I don't know, five, six years now. And it's weekly podcast, drops on Mondays. And it's parapastor scholars just discussing a seasonally appropriate scripture passage. We just discuss a passage. It's not like an interview. I'm not interviewing someone, shelling their book. Sometimes they have a book that they pitch at the end or whatever. But we're just discussing a text. Like, so it's around Christmas time. We're talking about that kind of stuff. If it's, you know, around Easter, we're talking about that. You know, we'll go through, you know, we'll do, Psalms will do, Gospels will, so it's kind of aimed for pastors, but of course, about half of our listeners aren't pastors. They just like additional material that's maybe a little bit more advanced because it's directed to a pastors. A little more substantive. It's not kind of just your standard, kind of cheesy devotional, Christiany stuff. But it's not like so high level that you can't follow it. It's meant to be relatively accessible. It's a kind of mid-range kind of scriptural study and discussion. So, I mean, I've found that usually, at least Christian folk who are, you know, church goers looking for maybe a little bit of additional meat to chew on, usually find that they enjoy the show. Yeah. I enjoyed editing it and then not editing it and listening to it. And for me, it was that hybrid of its people talking, but also mixed with a sermon. It was that kind of sweet spot, then diagram of that. So, yeah. Yeah. If that's your thing, you can search for what? Fresh text. Fresh text. Anywhere, Spotify, Apple, all of them. All the places. So, John, thank you for being here. It's been great. I loved it, thanks Eric. Well, that's another podcast crossed off. You are listening to Do List. There's a lot to take in from part one and part two. And I hope that you have enjoyed this conversation and that it got you thinking and even thinking about what your next steps will be in terms of weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual rhythms of retreat and renewal that can be found in those rituals. And it might not be your thing, but I did help John start his podcast back before the pandemic and he's still doing it. I will link it up in the show notes, which you can find it beyond thetoduelist.com. That's also where you're going to be. you can do me and John the favor of sharing this episode and actually this pair of episodes about the rule of life and how you can get started with that. You can also hit that share button wherever you're listening to this in your podcast player app of choice and send it on over to someone I'm sure you thought of while listening to these two episodes. Thank you again for sharing. Thank you for listening and I will see you next episode. [Music] you