Rethinking Terroir

What if you had access to the world's leading minds of the fine wine world and beyond? What if you could pick their brains during three days of intensive workshops? What scenarios would they draft for tomorrow? What solution would they come up with to answer today's biggest challenges? Well welcome to the Yerini live sessions. I am your host, Paul Indicare, Executive Director of A Rini Global and in this series, we share some of the most impactful conversations we had during A Rini Live. Our biannual event bringing together critical thinkers from iconic and forward-thinking fine wine producers to leading academics and business leaders. Come with us as we envision the future of our industry. In July 2025, we had the great chance to host part of our biannual think tank at the Domende Lambre, iconic estate of Maurice Sandini, now part of the LVMH van der Sippsion portfolio. After a morning full of brainstorming on various topics all linked to the future of fine wine, a small group of iconic wine makers, estate owners and wine personalities followed Jack de Vouge, the estate manager, on the tour of the Claude Lambre to understand Jack's vision and understanding of this very unique site. It was almost 40 degrees outside, so the group quickly walked back to the cool and beautiful seller of the estate for a conversation about der Waar and what it means today. Leading the conversation is South African wine maker Samantha O'Keefe, owner of this more estate in Great Britain. Some in Jack have both personalities that I admire very much. Jack is to me the perfect embodiment of the Burgundy and Winemaker his calm is grounded with a deep respect of the generation that came before him and a great sense of responsibility towards the generation that will come after him. The notion of der Waar in Burgundy is somehow always linked to something that you inherit and that you will pass on with very little place for disruption in between. Samo Keefe represent almost the opposite. The sword that she farmed had never seen vine before her. She had to start everything from scratch, something that hardly any Burgundyans can say today. With this freedom came also a lot of questions and probably a lot of fear about not making the right decisions or doing the right thing. So I thought that they would make a great duo comparing and contrasting their views and their experience. But the idea of der Waar and sense of place are concepts that genuinely fascinate every fine wine maker that I know. And soon enough all the group participants jumped in the conversation to share their views. Therefore what you are about to listen is quite unusual and follows a format that is not our typical or really conversation format. Along the voices of Jacques and Sam, you will hear the voices of Ted Lemmon, owner of Litturay in Sonoma, Laura Catena of Catena Sapata in Argentina, Mike Wattlev from Villa Fontaine, South Africa, Gonzalo and Precanalys Carrión from Antric and Alice to make in Spain, Pierre Villa Paléja, owner of Lü Petit Summary, a restaurant in Paris, Rodrigo de Casas representing Argentina at the OIV and our very own Feliciticata. To grab a glass of wine, sit down and join this group of fascinating minds discussing one of the geekiest yet fundamental topic in the world of fine wine. Okay, I've been asked to moderate today by Pauline. For those of you who haven't met me at my name is Samantha Oki from the owner and wine maker of Liz Moore State Vineyards in South Africa. I think that Pauline asked me for the contrast. I am situated in one of the youngest appellations in South Africa that was created because the terroir was so distinctive to any other area in the South African one in spirit scheme. So I think it's a perfect way to begin a conversation. I think you've actually done a really good job throughout our talk by walking us through how you feel the terroir affects each one of these parcels and this place. However, you also talked about your role in it. So I'm going to begin the conversation with how you view terroir and most importantly, how do you view your role because any one of those decisions along the way could have completely changed the wines from the percentage of whole bunch to your choice of oak. So begin with your idea of terroir and talk about your role. Okay. Because I'm lucky enough to make wine here in Burgundy, I think is the idea of terroir for me and for most of us in Burgundy. It is ideas and you have all the generation before us and the future generation and we are so lucky to be in Burgundy with this accumulation of generation of experience during centuries than allow us today to play with a very precise map. You have seen a clobo leg or survey in front of the domain, right? The limitation is known and now we have all the benefits of this accumulation of experience. So today you have what we do and of course we think about the next generation. So for me terroir, especially in Burgundy, have this dimension of a teamwork but not only the team of today but the team with the previous generation and thinking about the next one. Anyway, wine is a teamwork. And after the vision I have, I'm sorry but it's not very singular, it's not very original, it's to try to work hard in the vineyard to farm the vineyard like garden, to have beautiful wines, quality grapes. After I try to be as low in terroir as possible in the winery and this is it. I will give you one example about low intervention. We never add any yeast and any bacteria. It's 100% natural yeast and natural yeast, not those kind of yeast and you give to a lab and multiply and after you put it back, no, I'm talking about the yeast from the grapes and period. So when this building has been done, the first crop we've unified was 22. So I was a little bit worried because I studied at university and my teacher told me the yeast wild yeast, it's not coming from the grape, it's coming from the cellar, okay. And as you can guess, you had not one gram of material on the cellar of 22 and I was exposed to grapes before. It's all browning even the tanks. So, but anyway, we did as usual. We harvest nice grapes, we make the good selection, we put them on the tank and we waited and the fermentation starts and we did the 22s and you've tasted the more at 22 and all our wines fermented nicely. So it is this idea of no compromise to do simple things but with this idea to be no compromise, precision accuracy and to show the terroir and not the technique. So this is another point about barrels, whatever, any kind of technique called maceration or pijage or remontage. Any technique we use, of course, we need technique to make wine, this is obvious but we try to have the technique not sensible in the wine and the terroir in front. If somebody takes a glass of clodelangré and tell me, "Oh, I smell nicely, the whole bunch of cheese and for me it's a disaster because I don't want to show the technique, I want to show the terroir in front of." There is nothing very original, it's simple but sometimes the simple things, the simplest things are the best. We have a lot of great wine, mine, tea or so. This is a discussion. So anyone who wants to follow on anything that Jacques says, "Please do you." But I was curious, especially with the transforming, from traditional farming to organic biodynamic, do you feel that this shifted the sense of place, the expression of terroir. We see the health in the vineyards but the actual expression of the wine. Yes, I think it helped us to move on the right direction. When I say that, it's once again with a lot of respect for what has been made before because the property and terroir, my predecessor, made amazing vintage of clodelangré, you will taste one of them tonight and you will see, he did very well. But I think once again this idea of improvement here, after here, is important. I think what organic and biodynamic brought in the style of the wine is probably wine, more dense, with more material. But we did not lose elegance and we had more freshness and this idea of maybe saltiness at the end of the mouth. I think this is what brings organic and biodynamic. So more concentration, better material and saltiness at the end of the mouth. A question? that Pauline suggested which I thought was an interesting one is do you see a difference between terroir and a sense of place are they the same or are they different? Wow that's her. Yeah it's typical her. It's typical she went deep with this yeah but. I think the sense of the place is important especially when you are in a domain like Domain de l'Ombre because the Domain de l'Ombre it's not only the Vignare and the wine themselves it is this place and when you see the garden and it's all that the Domain de l'Ombre and I am sure that if you take the grapes of all Vignare and you've vinify them in an industrial building you will not make the same wine so I don't know if it's on the question but the spirit of the place matters a lot and after all that is for me all that is linked together because in the terroir you don't have only the rock the soil the microclamads the vegetal material you have the human influence and in the human influence I put the history I put the building of this cave I put the team and we are working with we have only seven people working in the Vignare than in the winery once again two of them have more than 30 years of experience and all that matters about the team I think what is important for me and it's part of the terroir it is the fact that the worker technical worker here they are seven they are not specialized in a couple of tasks they do everything they do everything from the pruning to the labeling so the guy is then close the box with the bottles put the label with shipping address to Singapore or New York I think he's proud of the bottles in the case because he did everything and he follow everything and he's invests on what he's doing and we are lucky enough to have the size than a load that because after if you have more hectares it's not possible anymore and of course some guys you put them in front of the labeling machine they will not know how to make it work but it's not a big deal they take the bottle they put them on the box and it is inside is and everybody contributes to all of the process and I think for them it's much better and finally in our wine for wine it's much better because there is more love and proudness on every movement every step of the making of the wine. It's also a way to make them more responsible. Yes, absolutely. I think they are a part of their momentary career. But are they organic parts or are you a statistic or is your success sensitive to the first about the quality of the wine that might change? And also the condition of working because they use to use chemicals and the very beginning there was some really. Is it for the second part? Of course they are very sensible because they are aware they are in the vineyard all year long and I think today if somebody, not me, but somebody tells them, "Okay guys we go back to chemicals and weed killers and I'm not sure they would like it." They are very sensible to be on this environment with natural product and organic farming. And after about your first question, yes I think we all know that to make some great wine you need the great grapes and we all know it's hard work. And nowadays you cannot have a worker in the vineyard if you don't create this kind of emulation of spirits and people are proud about what they do. And me because I'm lucky enough to travel I go once a year in the US, in Asia, in whatever. Every time when I'm back I tell them, "Oh I had this tasting and I had this comment." And I try to pass the message so that they know the improvement of the demands and know about the comments of our clients. And when we have a nice article, what I give them and what it's all kind of tools to create this environment which is very stimulating. Do you have a very differential way towards the terroir, the history, the culture, which is finding everywhere. Might just say you sound quite romantic. But do you, you've spoken also a lot about your team and your own wine maker? Are you improving your terroir? Improving? It's. It would be very fun. I have always in mind those bottles that are behind the wall there, and which are spectacular. I'm talking about the back ventages of before World War number two, where even from off year the wines are delicious. So I try, yes, I try. I hope. Then the wine we will we do now can be as good as in a century as those ones. And if there are, it means yes, the terroir is healthy, it's in good health. And already I think I have one part of the answer. I told you before the wines were not growing very well, they were looking not so healthy. And now they look very healthy. So yes, I think we are improving the terroir, we are improving the soil. After it's all about ressenti, you know, feeling I wish I could make measurements. But it's not so easy to make a measurement about the bioactivity of the soil, for example. But it would be very interesting to make analysis. And to say I have this amount of bioactivity on the soil. Some measures try to make numbers on that, but it's not so easy. But what is crazy, it is on this particular place, we are sure, we have vines consistently with no interruption. Only philoxara, a couple of years, from minimum, 660 years. Of course the terroir have changed. If you are a keener to have discovered a new terroir, you did plant vines on soils and probably never had vines before. And this is an amazing adventure. And us, we have soils today that necessarily have been changed by those hundred of years of its culture. I'm sometimes asking myself the question, if we are like you, imagine once again, burgundy had never vines before. And imagine we planted the clodelon ray 10 years ago, would the wine be the same? I'm sure not. I'm sure they would be different. Would they be better or less good? I don't know. But they would be different for sure. So terroir are already the results, the soils already have changed significantly due to the hundred of years of its culture. You definitely, when you're in the vinear, I've always felt it feels like the soils have evolved to nurture vinear. In my situation, we're constantly battling. The vines want to be there, but nature wants it back. And yet, there's no way that there hasn't been just this beautiful microbiological dynamic that's been formed over 600 years. That basically the soil is there to make sure that vines are healthy and happy and grow well. So, yeah, we definitely feel that. I struggle with that a little bit because that sort of, first of all, obviously through the enormous history here in the clodelon ray, as you indicated, things have changed, right? The way people farm what they farm with, they implement the animals, whatever has changed dramatically. And it's changed even more so post-World War. Even if we forget for a moment, you know, over fertilization and all that, we still live in a post-World War I, we live in a farming world, which is utterly different from before the first World War. And so I struggle the concept to me that maybe this is not what you meant, but what I hear is sort of what I call the concept that, that vines grow in a magic pot, that we can remove the vine from its entire biological and environmental natural community. I think that we do have the opportunity to increase terroir over time in the sense of uniqueness. We just haven't discovered it yet. And it doesn't matter whether it's burgundy, napah, moral burrow, South Africa, the advantage of being virginity, it hasn't been removed from you then. Your soil has all the interaction of all these incredible planets that have been there for so long that Oakville does not have anymore, or, you know, said to me, doesn't have anymore. And I do believe that there's an opportunity by bringing plant diversity back into our vineyards to take it to the next level. We just, we don't know it. It's a language we don't yet speak. There's definitely. Great thing to have a lot. Yes. Because you're recreating the vines association with other plants in a way that in monoculture we've left. Yeah. There's a lot of work being done in South Africa with that. A lot of vineyards that can afford it are planting indigenous varieties in between the rows or at least on the boundaries of the vineyards. I just feel in a completely different way, a homeostasis is sort of found with this, this, with 600 years, this environment has almost, these are the somewhat indigenous plants now. You know, they've been here for 600 years. So they've, they belong here. And the soils for what it's worth have, with all the microorganisms and all of the, all of the magic that's in a soil has, has found a way to nurture them. Otherwise, it wouldn't have thrived for thousands of years. It's just an observation. But certainly in a, in a new environment. Just go to the idea. Go ahead. So what does it do? It does have to. And it's like having an immune rejection of something new, being planted there. So can you say that again? But the idea that if you believe that, you know, any area is a self-disstanding system and you add something new, maybe what you say is immune response to reject what's there. A hundred percent. Including monoculture. Taking, I mean, with I did, I took mountain land and I introduced monoculture that, that you intuitively know it's unnatural. You know? So I guess there's a big, big question there, which is, what extent or when does it become terror, when it's the previous state is better than the current? To what extent is there introducing other crops, for example, or other species, just changing terror versus improving it? Unless you try to measure the soil health, whether it's chemical balance, whether it's microorganisms, whether it's a gang matter, you name it. I find it's very difficult to say whether it's all subjective at least, whether you're improving or just changing. And changing doesn't necessarily mean it's better to your own opinion of what you ought to have. And it goes back to the identity. The identity of a place is, in most cases, the interpretation of the owners, of the one maker, of the generations that go through it, of what the identity and that's terror, history, other crops should be in that specific place. But I find it difficult to make it a very objective answer to that. Because they actually wrote a paper that we published in scientific reports, which is one of the nature magazines, so it's very prestigious. And we actually wrote that 24 parcels of my bag, all my sal, all unguarded, because we mostly have that in Argentina. And it was in 24 different regions. Some of the parcels were one next to each other, somewhere maybe 100 kilometers away. And what we did was we did the gas chromatography, polyphenol, profile of each parcel over three years. So we repeated every three years. We also did sensory analysis by human panel. This was in collaboration with UC Davis, and I could be 90's Davis. And then what we found was the vintage could be identified always. There was an imprint of the vintage. So you could take the 24 parcels of different vintage. Anything you gave it to the one maker that was an imprint of the vintage. So they could have identified 100% the vintage. And they was done through this technical chemometrics, what they do is they look at data points, and they put it through the statistical analysis and the statistical analysis bit something out. And for the 24 parcels, 12 could be identified every year through the chemistry. So this was actually the first publication of a large scale. There have been small studies like this, but a large scale chemical fingerprint of the vineyard. Now, we are all talking about soil and soil health. And in the end, you as the producer or the viewer working the vineyard, you can do whatever you want and you will look at all other things. I'm just saying that what we found was that this was proof of Tehran. And you know there was that book that came out calling the myth of Tehran. There was a professor from Missy Davis saying that Tehran was a myth. And anybody that farms knows that it is not a myth. The wine made from one place takes completely different, same plant population. So this for us, this was interesting proof. But one question I want to ask the whole group is, so Tehran soil, it is climate, it is altitude and it's people, that's the traditional thing. I think that we would all agree that microbial population is important because it has a huge effect on the vine. So I would say maybe it's not in the books, but most people found, especially organic, great will agree, that it's not just what they do in the roots that help the absorption, but even if you're doing a wild, these fermentation, it's that. But I think what you don't want to ask you guys because today we saw these missiles and the clones. Do you think that plant selection, you know, within a variety, you know, whether it's clones or it's a missile, which clone it is, should also be considered part of Tehran. Do you think this should be introduced? I think John's point was stated really well. It was that for him, and please correct me, that you, the notion of Tehran war here is intimately related to the entire history of the property, right? Is that fair? Yes. And as well as technological, is that, including the vegetal material. So you would agree that the plant material selection would be part of the plant. For me, yes. I also think, but I had a big fight with somebody from one sector. So I'm really ridiculous. Those are the dumbest concept that Tehran was soil, soil, soil. That person is an farmer. A farmer or a one maker, sorry. I think if you take one great variety and you grow it 50 years in New Zealand or in Argentina or whatever, the vegetal material becomes different. Well, that's what I was going to say about that in your situation, you showed us the mutations. So it eventually, again, is evolving and adapting to its space, isn't it? The space is taking over and shaping the energy of the vies. If you look at varieties, that's grown in a different place for a very, very long time. Like, like, Maria, for example, in the city of Staya Mark, it's a shawylne variety. It's been there for several hundred years. It cannot identify it as shawylne. So for me, the sense of place precedes Tehran, right? In other words, if there was no sense of place, I wouldn't be here, I'm feeling you wouldn't be here because the wine I would make would be generic Pino and wine that nobody wants to pay a dollar more for a car bottle because it just tastes like the Pino and wine from 200 yards down the road or 150 miles further south in California. So for me, the great question is, what is it about some places, whether it's in Not in Tena or California or Virginia or wherever, what is it about these places that even before the cultural dimension, in other words, let's say to the French term, we've parachuted in and done this vineyard in Sonoma or South Africa from nothing, right? It was Blair Leinet. What is it about that place that can make a special wine? There's something going on there, even without the years, the hundreds of years of human contribution. That's what's really interesting. Do you think it's even without or because of? That's the question. Well, the human contribution is just this. It just started, right? And where is the weight of the extraordinary history of Climatic El Mains, like, you know, put those two in the scale, you were eye-creating a new vineyard in the new world versus what Shonklives were, you know, or way. Yes, but I'm saying here, I think it's because of all of this and the love that he described, you know? Yes, of course, of course. And 600 years of love, 2,000 years of love. My point is more that before you can get there, and this is why I don't ever use the word terroir associated with our lines because we're basically for generations, right? I don't think that link between the number of years and the terroir and the sense of place. Many, it's, imagine you discover, while you have the luck to discover a place that can make great-wise things to many things, is there just one generation, it's okay. And there is one, and many producers are just next door with great terroir. For example, in Vongonganate, surrounded by quite all clues, one is so-so, only two have a guess of what it is. (laughs) And there is maybe as long as history as Clude N'on-Way, and of course there is, I think there is no link. If you have just a look of understanding what it means, I'm not a one producer, but I say, I have come up, I meet so many people that just start it, and there is a great sense of place, high-poly to wine, and that can age, so there is no link with generation. - What I mean is, sometimes you have the intelligence to take the best of the, what you have. - Yeah, I'm not saying that we can necessarily profile the difference between analyze the difference between quote unquote terroir and places, I call them noble places, places around the world that for whatever reason have an ability to produce great wine. I'm not saying I can give you a definition difference. What I'm trying to say is that out of respect for, and you sort of alluded to it, the years, the hundreds of years of love that have been attributed to long-play or La Hominé. I mean, that's extraordinary, right? That human interaction with that place over so many generations is so extraordinary, that for me, because that's my understanding of terroir about all cultural, regional, village, historic thing, as a new world wine producer, I have to put that aside and say, I don't have that, I don't work with that. And this is going to turn into a pretty discussion between new world and old world. (laughing) - I use that term in the book. - Exactly, exactly, that's the point, that's the point. I am a lover of history, and I also feel that when I'm sitting on a place 900 years ago or when I'm sitting on the chair, where Julie's herself was there. (laughing) Well, by all the building in my city, Mendoza, from 1876, the oldest building, so everything. The power of transformation, of taking something, of doing something where there was nothing, and creating good, qualitative and global wine that you were, that's also a sense of place. And that question is terroir gets richer, maybe, with history, but it starts with the human interaction with the given climatic conditions, the circumstances. The question is like, in the end, why, know where our price, in terms of, well, they've got more history. Respect, respect? Yes, but there are fantastic ones being in South Africa, but on the one day, in Argentina, and that's also terroir, because in the past, that's why in the end, when I mean the perceptions, I was going, I didn't want it to get into live. But this, sorry, I just want to bring it back, because that actually, what seemed like a simple question is I think coming to the surface now about terroir versus sense of place, and Pauline asked, are they different? And it's interesting, because I think in some ways, you were saying they are, and that's the question, isn't it? Is some of us conflate the two? And, and there's no sense of place, three different points of one vineyard. I mean, anyone of us who make wine or taste out of barrels, can we take you to different points in a vineyard, take you to different parcels, everything tastes exactly, it's totally different from one another, even though they were treated exactly the same. Is that place, but it lacks terroir, is that what you're trying to say? No, I'm trying to say on some level, I just, this helped me get back there. I don't know if you've had this experience or that it working, you know, but I've had the experience of walking on to a piece of land multiple times in my career in California, with no analysis, no information, whatever, and being able to say, that's gonna make great wine. But where's the human, there's no human dimension yet? Yes, you're a couple. Except me. But, right, but there's nothing as formed, it's all prehistoric in the sense. I don't want to be the human, but you are the one that's free. No, but there's something about that place that has it. Yes. Could I just throw out there, what is the difference between good terroir and bad terroir? The price? What's your situation? I don't know. If you go down L'Orestane, really on the Bulgar generic floor, there is terroir, but in a blind tasting, they wouldn't have a sense of place. We have a sense of place here. And it would be more generic. So this is more terroir, we'll discuss about the geology, all how you do with it, and good terroir, but terroir would it be? A capacity of making great wines, and more, more or less, a good capacity to manage water. You always have something about water. Is it that terroir exists and the sense of place definition is a human definition? We kind of know. If we say everything that has a terroir, you know, in a sense. But everything, not everyone has a sense of place. Absolutely. If you were to analyze, maybe Laura, you've done a bit, the terroir, let's talk about the soil, because there's a lot of semantics going on here. I think some people are talking about terroir, the soil, and others are talking about terroir, the identity, all the sense of place, it's a being more than the soil. If you were to do a soil analysis of all the great wines of the world, I would put a lot of money on that type, that you have amazing variety, and it would be very difficult to draw a conclusion of what's good and what's bad to my point. So without, I don't think, you could possibly say, this is definitely a good terroir, a terroir, you can say, has potential, appears to have potential to do something, but without the human interaction, not just at the outset, but over the years, it would be difficult to have a great wine. That's not to say that, and I'm totally with most of you, or with some of you, but I think a young project can have make amazing wines, because it can have a great identity in a very short period of time, but obviously the longer you've been around, the more factors influence your identity, and therefore if you've been consistent over centuries, people are more aware of what your identity is, and that's for everywhere in the world, I think. Now, if you're defining your identity, you're defining a style, despite the terroir that's been around for 500 years, and amongst work using it, you define 80% whole bunch, or 60% whole bunch, or fully distanced for a part of it. You define how you get a greener vine, you define when you're going to pick your grade, and you define how much new work is about, what the, the purpose, so we can't move away from the fact as much as we want to talk about terroir, that there is human interaction, and that's beautiful. And that's what makes each project very special, unique, and irreplicable. And that sense of place can change too, right, for over time. The sense of place in Napervale, kind of pre-1990s, with an entirely different sense of place. So it's the humans that made a change. I follow quite a lot of what's happening in England, and it's a really long nation for one. They had made some wine in the Roman times, but that's a long time ago. And the sparkling wine started in the early 90s, so it's about 35 years. And they defined some typo soy, which was very suitable for making sparkling wines, and it works very well for the last. And now they are also experimenting more in making steel wines. And they see that it doesn't work with the same soy. Have to find different soils for the steel wines, a little bit more clay, a little richer soils. So the salt can be a. You discover, because you try, and you make errors, and you try a little bit different, and you find something that works. My former partner, 25 years in my library, some of you know, I am Dr. Phil Fries. He was one of the original toddlers at UC Davis. It's good in the British culture. He had planted a lot of very well-known vineyards in California. And when he was doing his second PhD, on British culture, his PhD thesis was something to do with the impact of the ancient soils of the world on the greatest wines in the world. During his research, he very quickly realized that, actually, that all the soils in the world were not in the base known region. and that's one of the things that took him to South Africa. And, instead of any, at the time, the research he did was that, oh, the oldest documented soils in Africa, the soil was called the Lafonte. And he was headwind, he had a bit of culture at the Opus, so he was panoramic on holiday. And the end of the pie in this piece of land, which was the Lafonte soiled our Christmas old. And then he said, what would happen if we took classic grape varieties and planted them in the oldest soils in Africa? Oldest documented soils in Africa. And that's how the winery starts in the soil type, Scorbal Lafonte. 28 years later, we still growing the same grapes in the same soil called the Lafonte, a winery Scorbal Lafonte that soils on the label. And so I feel very comfortable that after 28 years, we're only sketching the surface of truly understanding that side. And the benefit that we've had is that almost no variable is a change over that time. And so we've been able to replicate the same grapes, the same varieties, the same wines, we haven't launched a new wine ever. And only now we're starting to, it's not 660 years, but after 28 years, one or two things are falling into place and we're going out. - Thank you. - So, going back to Taua, you mentioned that there's so many moving parts and certain interpretations and so many questions, but sometimes 660 years is the answer. To these questions. (laughing) And also, just a final comment that the risk of fogging the floor is that I'm not sure it suits any of our purposes to perfectly define Taua. And I also don't think it suits the interests of the industry to try to put it into a box. - That's good. - Here you go, back to the question of how to sell wine. (laughing) So, to bring it back to where we started, I will say for myself that I very much appreciated where we started, which was your definition of Taua, because shock, you probably gave one of the most inclusive definitions that I've heard from a Frenchman, no, a French to all Frenchmen. But just even the, which is why it's a topic for this panel because or for this group, because it's such a controversial, it's so often the answer is snapped at a customer, like they're stupid. And then you're given some vague definition of Taua, which you can't actually grab onto, which I really appreciate that when we began, you almost took the wind out of the conversation because you gave it a definition that was so inclusive of everything that is about wine, that that's something I think a customer can understand. What is Taua? You start talking about the microbes in the soil or the climate or, you know, the, you know, you lost them, but when you talk about just everything, it's everything about this wine that put it in the bottle and all of the love from every single worker and all of the history. That, that to me was exactly the kind of definition that the intimidated customer can understand. Thank you for listening to Rini Live Sessions, a podcast series produced by Rini Global, a research organization dedicated to the future of fine wine. Rini Global helps wineries, distributors and retailers to understand how the world is changing and how they create risks to be managed and opportunities to be seized. What risks, what opportunities? Well, be sure to visit our website, Rini.Global. Subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on social media so you don't miss any of our reports, events and analysis. Until next time, cheers. (upbeat music)