Rethinking Casting and Studio Culture with Marina Muñoz Fortuny

does this at value? This question would be very nice if we could all do it before we launch a message to the world, because really the images we create shape society. Welcome to the flow show, a podcast for the brightest and most innovative creative minds in the e-commerce industry, powered by pixels. Hello, welcome to flow show. We have a new episode for you today and we have a guest who I'm super excited to talk to. Marina Munoz for Tune. Audiovisual production manager at Camper. We also know Marina from the previous career adventures and also from previous flow events since 2022. Marina, welcome. Hi. Thank you so much. Hello. Yeah, it's been a while since I discovered the flow community and then we met each other already. Yes, and I'm very, very happy about that fact and that's back in 2022. You joined Flow Barcelona. I feel like you've even been a face of flow for quite some time. It's true. There's like a picture that's been with Samuel and my friend and colleague that's been around for a while already, right? Yeah, I feel like it might have even been on the Timescorer billboard. Yeah, it's true. It's true. It's true. It was a very funny moment because actually it was because we knew the photographer. It was a while we haven't seen her and so we were pointing and her super excited like Nicola here and that excited moment was captured and that was the image, you know, super spontaneous moment and super fun. Yes, you could definitely feel the emotion through that shot. Yeah. And this is what we're here to talk about today. How to create amazing and memorable visuals. Marina, we always start with our speakers on the flow show was a little journey down the memory lane. Can you share a little bit how your career in photography industry started and when was that pivotal moment for you to really take it on as a job? Actually, I would say it was started when I was a kid. Like my favorite games and my favorite activity to do with my friends was to take photos of them to organize video. So I always say that we need to pay attention on which what were our games when we were kids, you know, because they gave us signals of what we could actually enjoy as a job later. I say that I was practicing since I was a kid editing. I was spending hours there, you know. So I always had this kind of approach for the audiovisual feel. Let's say I actually studied audiovisual communication. I also had a passion for fashion at the same time. I worked as a model while I was studying and that also allowed me to discover a new segment of the audiovisual world that's saying and to learn a lot while I was doing those studies. Yeah, I started with casting in the beginning from modeling agencies and then I had the chance to join Nikon Studio, which I felt that met many of the things I loved about the job in there. It all started. Now that all makes sense that we had your images, the face of flow, because you actually did start as a model. Yeah. Why and when did you pivot for being more on the other side of the screen? Actually, the reason why I started was because I had the chance and I thought it would be an amazing opportunity to learn from the other side about the audiovisual production, let's say. So for me was like another learning tool that I had and another way to accelerate my growth. So I was there, but I was not only doing that. I was studying. I was working in a communication agency back then as well. So it was for me. I was an observer, let's say. I met people. It was a super interesting thing to do. Once I started then for me became more interesting than what I thought. I discovered the craft of design, like all these things about the fashion field that are also super interesting. Also, it's some dark sides there. Discovering that also the people who embody or portray the beauty standards are not as confident as we think was also a big discovery for me like then. So yeah, it was just another part of my learning journey, let's say. And so right now you are building production processes and implementing tons of innovation at Camper. What were this major milestones in your career before joining this brand recently? Before that, I was working for Aloha, like another brand from Barcelona and before I was at my Theresa in the ECOM studio. So it's interesting to navigate through a more sustainable approach, more local company, one that it's more towards luxury, position in the market. It's been giving me a kind of 360 perspectives. Also the fact that I almost in all these occasions, we had to start from scratch as studio, which I think it's super interesting. It was always like the challenge of, okay, we have to build this from scratch as studio in Milan, as studio in Barcelona. It was always like building processes and creating something new. In that case, for example, it's been another scenario, no? Like there are already processes built. And now we need to redefine or to understand how we do things. So yeah, this would be the previous things that I was working. So before embarking on that path of working and leading studio teams, is there something that you wish you knew before you started? Let's say before that first job at my Theresa at the studio, some learnings that you could also share with someone following your past, so to say, right now. The main thing I would have known is that this job existed because in fact, when I was studying, I had no idea that this was a position, that the production in fashion, it was a place was like actually a title, something to have as a job. So this would have been amazing because it took a while to understand that this was an opportunity. So that's the first thing that I would have, that I wish I'd know before starting. I definitely need to learn more about the part of modeling experience and how it impacts your work now and your perception of work, because honestly, you're the only person in this industry who I know who has modeling background, but also now really leads studios and kind of designs the process of how you interact with talent as well. So is there something in there that you can secretly impact the way you work, the way you structure the processes at your studios? I think I developed a level of empathy for who is in front of the camera that I think it's very unique. I think I know, I can really understand what the people are feeling and how we should treat them to give the best out of them, knowing to have the best performance. So I think that's really an added value that I think I got from the modeling experience 100 percent. I also give a lot of value to the energy and set. I think it's super important. I think it's it's a must to protect that. And I think it all comes from that moment. And I know that when preparing for this episode, I ask you, what are you passionate about right now in the industry? And you said building safe spaces and healthy modeling career, which leads to a question, what are the things that you see right now in the industry, in the production space that aren't safe or healthy? I think there are many risk factors. And I think there's always in all the industries that are like risks of like creating a toxic environment. Of course, it happens everywhere. But in studios, there are some particular elements that I think that make it a bit more risky even. For studios, especially I think the fact that sometimes companies have the studio a bit separated from all the rest of office departments, like it's kind of a space by itself where this is created, and I think it's easy when there's some kind of dynamic established. It's difficult for people to realize or for others to see what's happening there. So that's what I saw. Like it takes time until people really understand what's going on in a studio. You know what I mean? Because the fact that sometimes it's a kind of bubble can be amazing and can be really a disaster in terms of energy and dynamics. So that is one of the particularity that I think we need to be super careful when building a studio. For models that are, I think I find the higher risks, you know, like the higher amount of risk in that profession. I think it's very vulnerable starting from the age when models are usually hired. Basically, it's a very vulnerable age for any job, but especially for modeling, I think it's even worse. The judgment based on physical appearance, I think it makes it also very delicate, like very complicated, especially in a niche where you think that this is like you value this the most maybe that you will do in all your life, basically. Like it's the moment where you give more importance to the physical appearance, what you show to others, how you are perceived outside and all of this. Then I think this idea of the big dream job, it's also not helping. Like the fact that we realize this kind of the modeling thing, whatever, as if it was like a dream job. Then people are related to do anything to get that and they have an idea of what this will be that then it's not the real and also there are many people taking advantage of this and making scams and, you know, trying to cheat people, you know, with this selling the big dream idea. Then there's the lack of control over results. Like it's this thing, it doesn't happen that the idea of is by studying more, I will get higher marks. It's like, I am, this is me, do I fit in or not? So then to have control over these some people take action on their bodies and this can be done in a healthy way or in an unhealthy way. So this is also problematic. Then other things like the lack of protection of their work conditions, high risk of sexual abuse, unfortunately, and all of these with lack of psychological follow-up that I think it's super needed considering all these aspects. Yeah, there's definitely a lot to unpack there and a lot of that unseen side, as you're saying, like it's been so glamorized, especially probably thanks to like this supermodel era that is pretty much over and it's a very different job when you think about e-commerce, right? It compared to a client fashion and runway. These are different stories for sure. What do you think that we as industry as the ecosystem can do to improve on these aspects and maybe some particular examples from your work and from what you are implementing that someone can take and try to adapt? Yeah, for the production, studios and set, I think it's super important to hire managers and team who really protect these good energy on set. I think it should be not a plus, you know, it should be something like mandatory to really protect this kind of atmosphere when no one's watching, you know? The respect, the good team players, I think this is the most important to stand for professionalism and respect for people. And then for models, the first thing we need to keep in mind is that we are dealing with human beings. Like soon maybe things will change, we know that, but right now, mostly we are dealing with real human beings and that involves boundaries, fears, insecurities, and we need to be aware and like to have this empathy for who we are working with. Sometimes there's this kind of the humanization of objectification of like the models for what they represent and we are like tweeting with their image, but that doesn't mean they are like just objects. So we really need to understand this idea. And there's like like quick, very easy things that we can apply, especially for people who work on set and there are other things that agencies could do or should do, but as from the set from like while doing castings or on set, there are super simple things that we do and we don't realize that are maybe a problem. Like something that we should not do is to share opinion on the bodies or of the models. It's super simple, but sometimes when something doesn't fit well or something, we just comment, oh, but the model has whatever, we cannot say these things out loud while the model is in the room at least. So this is like should be for a video, for example, not touching the model by any circumstance without asking permission not even to adjust clothing or anything to check now and then if they are feeling okay and to involve them in the creative process so they understand what is going on. So they can also add value to the shoot and they can know what's expected from them and we can allow them to do a better performance and also try to speak a language that they can understand. This is something that also happens a lot. Everybody is speaking a language and the model doesn't know what's going on at all and feel totally out of context and not part of the team that we created for that project specifically. These are examples of things that we can apply super easily just considering a couple of things. When do you normally bring in the model in the process? Let's say you have a campaign to shoot or in maybe it involves some more editorial like on location should then the similar or the same products that are shot in the studio. So when is the model getting involved? When it's already on set or a little bit early in the pre-production as well? The ideal would be that the agency already has an idea of what's going to happen but the minimum we can do is that when their model arrives we start explaining. It depends also on the level of difficulty or complexity of the production but if it's not such a big deal that we need to prepare at least knowing if that's going to be swimwear or not or the kind of clothing that that's going to be needs to be known in advance. It is super important but then on set to at least understand the kind of posing well expecting the mood a bit of the brand as well that this as a model also should do by themselves when they know that they are working for a brand should do a bit of research. But also make sure that they are aware of these things and put them in context so at least they can be ready for what's going to be expected from them. You've already touched upon that. We don't know how things are going to involve and that we are clearly entering a new era for e-commerce content creation in general but also for the models with all the recent developments with AI models with digital twins. I was curious to hear your thoughts about it and whether you see it as something good, something threatening or potentially as an opportunity. I think it's going to be that's going to be a before and after with this new era of the digital models when I still don't know which part or which segment of the photoshoots will cover or will be most useful for you know. I don't know if it's going to be more for the e-commerce, for the campaigns, for the tutorials, for the I'm still not sure what it's going to take part you know. I don't see it as a threat honestly. I see it definitely as something new that I'm still like curious to see how we'll develop you know. But I don't see it as a threat or something bad at all. And if you think about some of the comments that we've been seeing in general in the industry, for example, on the posts on social media by the brands that used AI or also in general in conversations on LinkedIn, for example, that I think I'm very good. We need these conversations. There is a threat of people saying that AI is setting unrealistic beauty standards. Is that really so? Is AI to blame? The problem of setting unrealistic beauty standards doesn't come from AI 100%. This is a problem that we've been having since we create images. And actually not even unrealistic standards. The fact that we have a beauty standard is already a problem in general. So not even unrealistic or not unrealistic. But something from that point, images have been manipulated for decades. So we never know like it's not that we've been seeing raw images all the time. We've been seeing retouching, we've been seeing make up, we've been seeing like creating a creative process that has like some steps and we're not aware that would be the work behind those images. So the images have already been manipulated. This on first hand, but then after like also the other part is that like the casting choices are the one responsible for setting the beauty standards and for creating this collective imaginer like idea of what a beauty standard is. So it's not on AI. It's about casting choices. It's about who decides who is in this image, right? Yeah, that really reminds me of what Laura Vincent shared here on flow show, a few episodes back that she's curious and a little bit worried about everything happening, but also doesn't see it as a threat for example for their business about inclusive and like diverse models because they're simply not enough imagery in the world to properly train AI models on that and that we simply the casting choices have been such that AI delivers a very particular standard because that's what has been most popular across the visuals. Yeah, that's a very good point. It's a pity that AI takes the information that already exists because it's more difficult to create new scenarios, but I mean diversity also doesn't only rely on who is in the picture or it's also the role they are playing in that picture. So it's okay, there are women on pictures which is the role of women. There's disabled people in images, but what's the role of these people? This also defines a lot like this also is what helps opening new scenarios, opening new perspectives, right? And also the threat that happens with AI like with any other tool that we have is to use it properly. If AI we use it for like some purposes will be a threat, can potentially be afraid, but the responsibility is who's behind taking the decisions in the other direction, right? But let's say they are direction, it has happened. It's been happening for the past, you know, 20, 30 years is a very certain body type that has been mostly featured in all of the advertising campaigns. What are you seeing now is casting because I feel like there has been that light in the end of a tunnel where there's been more conversation about diverse body types and plus models really got more of that spotlight and real people. But now it seems like we're kind of rolling back a little bit on that. Or is it just my perception? Am I wrong? No, it's not only your perception unfortunately. It was what I was afraid of. Like I was like I hope this is not just an illusion of some years of a trend. But yeah, it unfortunately became a trend and now we are back to the skinny chic whatever and it's happening. We are seeing it in the fashion shows in the like percentage of models non-conventional or with non-standard features in images in general. So yeah, the problem is that it was not done from the base. It was not added to the e-commerce properly, like it was not everywhere. It was only used for campaigns kind of to show off. We are defending something but not really added to a layer that was really impactful, especially for body diversity. I think this is like the topic that is more behind right now and that we didn't like properly establish. And what do you think is the reason for that trend? Let's say not really go in deep into your saying e-commerce visuals. For example, is it the complexity of production? Is it someone's decision-making or is it bottom line? It's a very complex question. First of all, I think logistically, there's a problem with samples being created because everything that is industrial has certain like patterns and like the more standardized it is, the easier it is to produce. So if we have the standardization that we produce a sample S for all the clothing we produce for the shoots is easily that if we produce clothing, especially for each project, it's much more complex in terms of company. So that from the point of view of the company, it's more complex. It's an additional problem or additional that for me it's worth it. For me it's worth it but there has to be a whole process involved and a whole development for companies to develop these kind of areas in terms of logistics. Then consumers are used to see a certain type of person. So probably in the beginning will not translate into sales right away. We talk about that oh we love to feel identified but sometimes no, sometimes we just want to see my idea of what I could potentially look like if I wear this and I will be like this person like there's the aspirational and the inspirational or the feeling related to. So sometimes it's aspiration to be that what I'm seeing in the image and sometimes it's oh I feel related but the aspirational in reality sells more than the feeling related to sometimes, depending on which products. Products that we don't need as fashion play more the role of the aspirational. Okay so this is also and that's and another topic if we want to go a bit more social, I think it's not an interest of like the capitalism like doesn't want us to feel good with our bodies because this is also making us buy more like as soon as we establish a with standard that it's and achievable will keep buying more if we promote models with diversity we will feel better with our bodies better with ourselves therefore we will buy less. So I think it's also a system interest. Yeah it's like that hamster will that just keeps going and yeah not exactly everyone is interested in turning trend into just a common reality and commonly accepted and used thing which is a shame but the truth. Yes honestly I wish that images would be in favor of people right in favor of mental health or in favor of a better world but sometimes since we use it for commercial purposes it's not always matching the needs. And that really leads us to think about the power that actually creatives have over creating that social impact right about empowering someone to feel good about themselves about the right positioning of diverse body type or different ethnicities in the shots. Do you feel like creatives really truly realize the power that they have of creating this visuals that can impact so many people and so many people's lives? I don't think that many of the creatives are the people who are behind the process of creating images that are aware of the power and the responsibility that we have and the power that this can have you know in the world. It's very easy to focus on as I said the commercial needs the commercial data which is part of the game. I mean we are all in this game images that create it also for this purposes but we could have a mix that would be very beautiful but it's sad that we are sometimes blind by these only commercial needs or focusing only even only in aesthetics. It's very comfortable to go for what we know it's already cool, what we know it already works and the difficult part is to create, to make new scenarios, to take risks and to do something new to the table and it would be amazing if we can ask ourselves every time we create an image. Does this add value? You know when what we're communicating has an extra value or I'll just perpetuating an stereotype. You know so this question would be very nice if we could all do it before we launch a message to the world because really the images we create shape society create this collective understanding of the stereotypes. Do you have any brands top of your mind who are doing this already who you feel like yeah these teams are asking themselves what value we are creating, what message we're sending to the world. Since I don't know what's behind because every company has their own I believe that camper is doing something like this so I really am really happy to be part of it because I think they are really taking risk with the casting and they are really going for uniqueness and features you know that also showcase personality and I think that's super interesting. Yeah I remember seeing some of your messages about looking for models that are actually my yorkine and that leave in the environment where the brand is created where the brand is from and I thought oh that's a very cool way to portray transmitted authenticity. Can you share a little bit more insights into how the casting process at camper looks like in general? Yeah I think the nice part is that it's taken as a very important part of the creative process so we really take in consideration that decision what I said the values of the like the features that we take in consideration of the uniqueness personality I think it's super important and break up with the standards you know every project is different and of course there's not always the level of boldness you know but there's an intention for it and then internally I think we know how to treat and we know we have a clear mindset of how we need to treat the models so that's also super important as we were saying before we also take in consideration a lot the expertise of the model some models come to the studio and they say that it's their first trip out of their country or one of their first jobs you cannot treat the same this person that this will be a super remarkable experience for them and we need to be good partners for it then another person that has a lot of experience and that is another job that they are doing you know among others so we really take each case you know and try to adapt depending on the model and it's to have some recipe needs to be like from them as well but like we need to take in consideration where they come from who they are what's their age what's their experience to really have a good follow up on them and obviously the things that you're saying about establishing more contact with the model spending time on appropriate brief taking consideration their expertise having maybe a casting manager or kind of on set manager who is in charge of that relationship atmosphere and so on that's all comes with the extra cost obviously how do you advocate for that for the brands and I do understand maybe it's a brand value is a kind of part of the DNA for Kemper but for someone who isn't the environment of we got a shoot at 200 looks today and we have two models to do that so go go go like there are no pauses no breaks no nothing how do you approach shifting that mindset and showing look if we do this in this way this are the benefits that we're going to see as the brand first of all we need to understand the limits and put the conditions like you know what I mean so if we already have super bad conditions that maybe we'll make it super difficult to have a proper dynamic on set maybe the problem relies also on the first condition like you know the first condition of all if we by once we arrive to this point make sure you get a model that can deliver like that will not get frustrated like get the experience you need like don't only focus on like then on the selection if that's a condition don't only get the selection based on how the model looks or how he's gonna fit on these clothes make sure you also select or hire a person who is quick who is like you know how has good level of energy so depending on the conditions of the shoot you will be able to be more flexible with things or others that first thing and then what you were saying about having someone the extra cost comes from having the team super aware that this is a must really like if we all treat well and every interaction with every person on set is good if the stylist is treating the model properly the makeup artist is doing them probably if everyone is having a good interaction that's it we don't need anything else than this so it doesn't have to be big investments but small things also can create a big impact 100% as we approaching the end of this episode one thing that I really like asking our guests about are the next big things that you have in mind for yourself and maybe for your work or some dream projects that you're working on and I'm ready to share with the world I would love to go more deep into this thing of the follow-up of models in a psychological way that thing I think is there and I would love to explore more of it I think it's super necessary and one day maybe I can develop something more into that direction that would be amazing will definitely follow you along and provide the platform to share with the world as much as possible and share it with the industry because that's definitely something that don't want to go to for cliches but yeah makes it a better place for everyone exactly if we all do the effort I think it's totally feasible thank you so much Marina for this conversation for coming on the flow show and sharing your thoughts about such important and critical topics for the industry appreciated thank you so much Alexandra was a pleasure thank you all our listeners for joining for yet another episode of flow show don't forget to follow us on Spotify our Apple podcasts and you'll hear from us very soon thank you and goodbye