Rethink’s Global Chief Strategy Officer: Showing up with a point of view – Sean McDonald

Do you ever feel like the agency business needs a little bit more optimism and maybe a few more fresh ideas? Welcome to the Mortal Life of AsiCes. This is the podcast that spotlights the visionaries and changemakers who are shaping the future of our industry. Here we don't dwell on the doom and gloom. Instead, we celebrate the leaders who've been there, done that, and are happy to share what they've got right, as well as what they've got wrong. Each episode delivers short, punchy conversations with some of the biggest, boldest and brightest minds in our world. Along with practical takeaways, you can put to work in your agency today. So if you're looking for stories of positivity and progress, you're in the right place. Welcome to the show. My guest today is Sean McDonald, the Global CSO and Partner at Rething. This is a conversation about commitment to what you believe in. Sean starts by talking about how he broke the habit of needing to be right in every meeting. And how that's bred real confidence in his team and better collaboration with his clients. We also talk about the value of envy to drive standards up in his business. He name checks the agencies that he most respects, and we talk about Mark Carney, the Canadian Prime Minister. Sean also talks about the value of showing up with a point of view. albeit one that he's willing to upgrade. As he puts it, sharp as a reporter, not just an observer. He talks about why having a point of view as an agency is hard, and he talks about the long-term value of holding on to that core belief as an agency. This is a really optimistic, opinionated, joyful conversation. So Sean McDonald, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Good to be you. I am delighted to be having this conversation for lots of reasons, not because I'm aware and so many of the listeners will be aware of everything's work. But also because of something I particularly enjoyed about our prep call that we had a little while ago. And you described yourself as the bluntest guy in your agency. Right. Now just tickled me. So tell me more about why you're the bluntest guy, why the agency needs a bluntest guy. Tell me more. I think I'm lucky that it works so well. I rethink. So I think sometimes being blunt can be too sided. But I think as an agency, we do well by being very candorous with each other. We don't want to waste time. We have a clear bar that we're trying to reach, you know, our goals is at the standard. And I think if you don't say the thing, you don't know whether you're being honest with each other, how long is it going to take to get to the point? And so I think you know, I've learned a lot in being blunt at rethink and I have to really say the agency has scaffolded me and helped with my ADD fueled impatience and periodic red energy. But I think what makes it all work is that we can say the thing in terms of where the quality of work is that how we're feeling in the process of doing the work feedback in terms of how we're giving feedback. So I think in every moment of rethink, we're really dead set. Everybody comes in with the goal of setting a standard and that allows the rest of the conversation to be clear. It's on an individual intent. It's a group focus. And I think that allows for a lot of candor, a lot of direct conversations because the intention is clear and aligned. And so being blunt at rethink is not a way that everybody has to be, but it's certainly something that works within the agency when done with manners. Yeah, I think that's a crucial thing, isn't it? The sort of directness with kindness as opposed to niceness. It's, you know, it's manners. It's not about being endlessly insensitive. I guess that's implied. But let's talk more about that in a second, but I'm curious about you personally, first of all. So you sort of, it sounds like you've sort of become that guy in the business. You know, there's a degree of psychological safety. I'm kind of inferred from what you've said. So I guess you've been on a bit of a journey from kind of coming in and, you know, to where you are now. So just maybe just characterize that a little bit for us. Yeah, it's true. So I mean, I've worked in in parts of our industry and beyond where that kind of directness is not welcome and then you know, ended up at rethink where it's very welcome. So my career actually started in politics. I worked for a member of parliament in Canada advising generally, you know, to the degree that I could in terms of communications and everything else. And I think, you know, in that area, we're having very direct conversation with each other, but you're wrapped in the bubble of politics where, you know, you're certainly building up a member of parliament, you're supporting your team, your party, etc. So, you know, you learn a little bit there and it was always the communications that was more interesting to me than the politics themselves. Moving from there, I ended up working in the thing tank and then in PR. And I'll say in PR, like you learn a lot about the consequences of being direct, but you also learn how to make sure your message rises to the top. And so there's a balance between how you're advising and how you're behaving. I think it's less of an idea is based industry and more of a council based, you know, industry. And so that's a little bit different in terms of the, the kinds of conversations you're having are more rational, strategic. But when you work in advertising, when I jumped into working at taxi and then subsequently rethink, it's all about the idea and it becomes a creative vulnerability there. And I think that was something that was new for me because I've always, as I said, I came from a world of council and strategy and recommendation, not that it isn't creative, but it's still on that side of the brain, where it's you're a little more rational. Now taking that direct conversation over what's the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do, but working in the fragile moments of creativity where you can kill an idea or a point of view by being too direct too early or too insensitive too fast. That was a real adjustment and I really, I think it's taken me about, you know, 15 years to get better and better at it, but, you know, working with incredible creatives, you'll learn what they're looking for and you get a sense of how to get across what you're looking for. So it's been a really interesting mix, but you know, transition from one low to the brain to the other, but I've enjoyed it the whole way through. I love that one low of the brain to the other. Just on that very contrast, maybe there must have been some moments where you, you know, got it wrong or you put your foot in it or you realize that the, you know, that more kind of council, that irrational approach kind of wasn't going to work in in that more creative environment. Maybe it kind of providers with a couple of examples just to kind of really drive that contrast home when it worked really badly with the old approach and how you knew you'd made it with the new. Well, I mean, to be more direct, I think, I think this has impacted me, this conversation in particular, has impacted me as a manager more than even just as a strategically creative person in the industry. And I'll say that because, I mean, in a different phase of my career, I think part of the allure in the strategy world is, you get asked what to do a lot. And I think people enjoy being asked, you know, it's an honor to have somebody say to you, what should we do? But I think you have to know that you have to have a healthy dose of reality that you may not be right. And I think earlier my career, it felt like I had to win every conversation with my colleagues and my clients. And I think that comes from an era of billable hours where you need to make every moment worth it. And you think that you have to be the person that's called upon and that you do that by never being wrong. And I've come to realize and learn in my career that though I may have been lucky enough to be right more than I was wrong, the percentage may have only been 51 or 52%. It certainly wasn't 80, right? And so when I think back to it, that took space away from my colleagues. It also took away the opportunity for me to listen and to hear more and to learn. And I think through agent experience, you learn that by giving more space, I'm going to take more and return. I really, like, when it worked well, I think I was a great colleague. When it worked terribly, I was a really bad colleague. You know, I was, people in the room wouldn't feel the space. Clients would probably feel they're nervous enough about how to spend their money or how to solve the problem we're talking about. And I think at times, maybe I was winning through, not winning, but I was pushing the wrong kind of energy. I think what I've learned specifically, rethink and I will espouse it to our culture, having a strategy, having a deliberate point of view around collaboration. But I've also learned with my team, I have no interest in being right because there's probably a better answer out there amongst us. And I think what I've learned, you may give you a tangible example, any head of strategy or rethink working with myself and the team will say this to any strategist, everything. You don't need to have the answer. You just have to find it. And I think that subtle switch of thinking that you have the answer and that your job is to have the answer versus you have to discover the answer. It can come from somebody else. It can come from a friend, family member, colleague, it can come from anybody anywhere. If you feel like you don't need to come up with the answer and that you can calmly just focus on discovering it, you can see how it might come from within you, but it also empowers the listening side of that. And I think that imbues confidence in people that if they don't know, that's not a panic, it's an opportunity. You don't have to know, you don't have to win the conversation, you can lean to it. So I guess what I had to learn is this is not a competition and to be generally collaborative, it's take a little pressure off yourself and to know that you may not know the answer, but you might discover it around you. That's been my biggest lesson and I think it now has built the infrastructure of a way more confident team. I see my role is not winning, but building confidence. Yeah, that's nice. That's really nice. It reminds me that classic coaching question that every new manager should be taught in my opinion. If someone in their team comes along, it's just regulated or they need an answer to a question or is it looking for something to be handed to them, just be able to take a moment and turn around and say, look, you know what, it's a great question. What do you think? And just get people to show up with a point of view, and it's so valuable, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the basis of power strategy and works. We ask everybody to peer review their work with each other because you have to recognize your blind spots and see the opportunity in your colleagues. And I think bringing a point of view is important, but then also bringing a vulnerability and opportunity just to make it better. And again, I'm saying this, there's a lot of words that we have in conversations like this, like be vulnerable. All that kind of stuff, but I guess the bullshit I want to cut through is The city of law of strategy is thinking that you have the answer and that your job is to be the person with the answer If you think that you're not going to be the best strategist If you sit there and you create the foundations for an answer to be discovered because you brought it or somebody else That is better and I think what I've learned and what I see as a competitive advantage is if I with my colleagues create the most collaborative Strategic department in the world. It will therefore be the best Because we're multiplying the brains that are solving a problem and we're not focusing on the ego Subsequently though the work will be better and everybody will be proud and we're seeing those tangible results I think I really you know, I part of my I think a lot of people do this, but I try to like repair some of the things that frustrated me when I was coming up And I think one of them is the is the full of shit eloquent strategist that thinks they know the answer And I'd rather create a department that can find the answer with really eloquent people in it, but It's I'm really motivated to resolve the sort of veneer of What's perceived as the best that individual who knows the answer versus the team that does It's almost like an Emperor's new clothes thing, isn't it where the I've often called this in the parts like the cult of the strategist Where you know, everybody's working late. It's pitch days tomorrow Let's say as an example and the strategist says, you know It's just as tired as everyone else is just as kind of emotionally kind of you know, no one resorts and The first sort of coherent thought that comes out of the mouth of someone with a word strategy in their title Everyone is so willing to imagine that that's the answer even if they were literally just thinking out loud So of course it puts a huge amount of pressure on the strategist to kind of shut up less. They be held up as the hero equally it puts a huge amount of undue kind of responsibility on their shoulders. So if that kind of cult of them being the person that has to have the answer goes away then It's like any other brainstorm, isn't it? Anybody might say anything but it might spark a good thought from the most junior person in the room It doesn't have strategy in their title and so on. It's a much more collaborative vibe It is and I think it also creates a different endpoint and focus so When you describe that cult of the hero moment that'll win a meeting, but it won't win the moment, right? So if being eloquent in a room gets you through a meeting I think a lot of agencies are focused on let's have a good meeting But that might not lead to the best work or creative so that eloquence That moment where that person says the rational thing or drives a point of your heart or Rises to the occasion of the hard question if you weren't answering that question in a way that will actually create better creative outcomes Better solutions, but you've just given people like the temporary satisfaction of of a comfortable meeting conclusion That's a problem as well. So I think we have to watch out for it I think we've talked about being transparent candor as saying the thing getting through a meeting can't be the goal And so therefore we have to have a culture of getting to the best solution no matter where it comes from I mean heaven forbid someone even a client might find out we don't have all of the answers all of the time immediately Without having to do any work. I mean come up again. I'll tell you though I mean, I'm sure we've all done this but I think people don't do it a lot I have worked with Nina Patel at Kraftheim's for years for a long time and it's been great to watch her ascension at Kraftheim's But I will tell you there was a moment when I was developed I was delivering some strategy you know earlier in my career rethink and I'm trying to remember the exact brand But Nina asked a question and it kind of was the thread that pulled the sweater apart and you know I the emperor had no clothes in that moment say to go back to your to your reference But I accepted Nina's point and I told her this is wrong I have to now reconsider based on what you said Let me come back to you and she has studied that conversation with me as a foundation of trust for a long time and Again, it's not about being right in the moment. It's about guiding the moment in the right way So I think back to that example all the time of saying you know what you're right I was wrong and it doesn't have to be so binary as right and wrong But she made a point that fundamentally adjusted where we were going and I think If I'd wanted to protect my ego, I might have debated that longer selfishly But in a really trusted relationship with Nina. I was like you're absolutely right. This now requires some reconsideration and We'll come back with that in mind and I think that has led to a million more comfortable conversations since Yeah, yeah, yeah, and again I mean that that's so archetypal of isn't it of the the agency that feels like they have to You know, maniacally hold on to you know being the author of success or that the idea they brought has to be the right one Whereas actually if you took them out of that that situation and said hey, wouldn't you love a lot a really collaborative peer-to-peer relationship with your client where They bring ideas you bring ideas you kick stuff around the work gets better You know regardless of your discipline or your agency size or ownership That's a pretty good meeting to be in and yet you've got to allow yourself to show up to be ready for it And you've got to set that up from the start of the relationship I guess that's right And then how different is this than any other relationship in our life? How good of a friend are you Robin if you expect to always be correct in your group of friends with your partner with your family? Out of various holiday dinners. I mean you're not gonna get invited back and I think there's no difference In this we've been reading my diary. I Just think sometimes These things feel hard because we're paid to be correct But at the same time you just realized it's just a professional version of every other relationship that we have yeah Cool. What's that lovely relationship phrase? It's thinking between romantic partners It's like sometimes like even when you're right you're wrong It's not about winning the argument. It's not about you know who accurately remembers what was said or wasn't said It's just about getting to a better outcome That's my lifelong lesson in life and in work because I am a very competitive person I want to win not disrespectfully win not not win to smother everybody else But I grew up you know playing a lot of sports where you sort of tip your head at the competition you learn from it but You have to realize when a moment isn't a competition. It's an opportunity And I think it depends how you are you know I'm very oriented towards the competition of the industry world that it reminds me of sport. I like You know one you know agency brand competing as another people in positions But I mean it in a way of respect. I mean I and I've learned that from creatives. I appreciate when you go to Can or one show whatever a word show you're at and people are talking about the works and seriously This isn't I'm not even talking about the moment of winning the awards I'm talking about it in the hallways and in the dinners and the drinks afterwards where People are talking about the work the why the story of it. That's what motivates me and But you still have to learn like when is it not a competitive moment? I think it's important to know when to let go Yeah, yeah, I mean again without sort of stretching the point too far And I'm sure I've mentioned this on the show at some point before but it's going back to that as I understand it The sort of original socratic idea of debate would be about making both of us smarter and moving to a point beyond which both of us started And as opposed to where we are now, which is like if you disagree with me and I disagree with you then we obviously both have to hate each other and And generally I think there's a pretty healthy competition our industry There isn't too many dicks that I've come across and I'm sure I've been that dick at certain points But there isn't too much of the I fucking hate those guys. I don't want them to win rather than you know what I just I really want to be the best but if we're not wow, you know, I'll be jealous of the work they did But hats off to them. That was amazing and I think generally that's the spirit I come across I think so and I think as we get to know each other more that goes away even faster I mean what my experience has been listening Competitively there have been times where I'm like, oh fuck those people like why they win that or whatever But I don't mean it like I don't mean them harm. I'm motivated by it in that moment I'm saying to myself what did I miss out on what did they do Generally it's a shortcoming in myself that I'm I'm challenging or in our agency that I'm realizing that That competition didn't have in that moment I think what I've learned in many ways is talking to those people and getting to know them You generally have a ton in common you're motivated by the same thing So I think the more we get to know each other the more that goes away, but I also think Um, you take things more personally the more fragile you are about it and I think uh I really generally yeah nice true because I think you have to have a confidence in your stability I mean if you're going to hold on to one thing so tightly it means that the rest is pretty weak and so Everything over the past my 10 years, but over the past six seven years that have been particularly intense for us And sort of moving from like working in one part of the agency to looking at the whole agency It creates some calm as to what are the bigger trends where we going versus this one moment this one pitch this one campaign This one award show yet to look at it much more broadly and in some ways that creates more intensity But in others are creates a calm that so long as we're training the right way wins and losses You know aggregate over time. It's not every moment isn't Liver died. Yeah, let's come back to that. We're going to go away for just for a short break right now, but we'll pick up on that in just too sex Forgive the interruption. This is your host Robin Vaughn briefly swapping my podcast hat for my consultants one Now here's a question for you. How will your agency consistently command a premium in the age of AI? Well step one is to create what codifinary calls a market of one That means becoming so tangibly different that you're the obvious choice for the clients you want most Because only once you're seen as different do you earn the right to price differently and that's what changes the game on profit So perhaps that's you already But are you really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out take five minutes to complete codifineries diagnostic questionnaire It's quick free and thought provoking And you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge You'll find our diagnostic questionnaire at codifinary.com/dq And don't worry there's no spammy automated follow-up. Just clear personalized insight that you can act on today So head over to codifinary.com/dq and see what you can uncover Right podcast hat back on. Let's get back to the show. Okay, welcome back everybody. We're just going to dive into a deeper part of the conversation, just talking more about the, I guess the competitive context that Rethink sits within. So you mentioned a little bit about that kind of competitive envy and that motivation to be better, but let's just kind of take stock a little bit about where everything is, but who your competitive set is, what do you see when you kind of look out the windows of the agency and you see the rest of the business? Well, I will dive right into that question specifically, but I will tell you, I think it's important that we're often competing against ourselves. And I'm saying that because our actual goals in the agency is our vision is to set the standard that all creative organizations seek to emulate. And we did that knowing that we're never going to sell. And so we have to look at ourselves and say, what's the watermark for success and what are we focused on? We also had to do that because as an agency born on the west coast of Canada that has grown to be relevant globally, there's something about Canada where you have to make sure that you don't just think about Canada. It's important to think about all of the competition there. But I do think there's a reductive quality to the Canadian pride where you forget that you can be as good as any brand in the world, not just the best one in Canada. And sometimes there's a culture of being humble where you don't think that big. It's not necessarily in our nature. But some of us do. And I think we had to say to ourselves, okay, what is the high school we can have? Now, getting past that to answer your question directly, we look at an agency like Wyden in Canada and we envy them for their principled point of view, for their longevity, for the creative of the creative caliber that they work at, for the longevity of their relationships. They've got Nike's an incredible example, but not the only example of longstanding relationships. That's something that we've experienced as well. And though we've found our own reasons to be independent, to choose not to sell, it's really lovely to look at an example like Wyden that has more offices in us around the world right now and feel the companionship of, there's others out there that are doing this, they can do this. And so we look at that and we say, that's a great example and we compete with them there. We work alongside with uncertain brands and compete with agencies like uncommon and mischief and really, really envy those. Mischief came in and, you know, brought humor and energy into the industry that I think for an agency brand, I look at that and I go, it's great. It looks like they're having fun. It feels like they're having fun, like we're having fun and be that. And then uncommon to me seems like I think other than rethink, that's my favorite agency in the world. I look at them and they feel like the unrethink to me and I'll tell you why. I think rethink in our ideas, we tend to be very right or driven and I think uncommon is very design in our direction driven. And that's just my perspective in seeing their work and I think British Airways is one, just one example. But if you look at all of them, there's a very visual concept that's driving the witch, the insight and the humor of it all. And I just find it's the inverse to how we look at it. And so I envy it. And I'd like for us to, not that we never have. I mean, we do a lot of work that's designed driven and visually driven. But just predominantly, there's usually a concept that you might say came from a writer more than they came from a, the, our direction of design side. So I think, you know, those are the kinds of agencies where you respect the brand, you respect the style, you respect the purpose and vision of a widen. And we think we're in good company, though. Yeah. I mean, you undoubtedly are, you know, there's a reason why those types, those are the agencies that get name checks often among others as well. I'm curious about the, you know, the design and the sort of art direction, the lead execution work that you've name checked at uncommon. Have you spoke with Niels Leonard, for example, about that? So no, we've met, but I haven't spoken with him at depth, but, you know, I would start off with a litany of compliments and envy, should I get the chance? Fascinating. I find it really interesting. I've heard him speak many times, of course. So I've heard it the way to have the work. Yeah. Well, it was very fortunate. Niels provided, quote, that went on the front of my book last year. And he's, and also the anecdote at the end of the book, which I was very grateful for as well. But, I mean, he's a great speaker and I think a brilliant advocate for what it means, not just to be creative person, but also I think he's a really great advocate for what it means to, to sort of think broader than our industry. And I mean, it's funny, just as a random reference point to go slightly off track, you're talking about growing beyond Canada, we're recording this not long after Mark Carney speech, Davos, just talking about the nature of power and being visionary in a way that I don't think I can remember from many politicians in recent years. So it's fascinating that that would come from a nation known for its humility to take such a sort of humble, but strong leadership position, a huge respect for that. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mentioned to you my roots in politics and without getting into the politics of it, let me get into the communications of that moment. You know what I think was so refreshing about that speech outside of the topic and it comes back to what, where we started this conversation. He didn't come out and just speak to the attitudes. He came out with a point of view and it was clear, it was distinct, it was balanced, and but it was a point of view. And I think in this world right now, especially in moments that are on a podium or in public, people are afraid of having a point of view that some people might disagree with and politicians, say, most often round the edges of anything, so as to indicate their political leanings, but offend no one anywhere. And I think that's a very conservative way of playing, but I think what Karne did, and I think it's unexpected from such a close neighbor and from a Canadian Prime Minister on a global stage in Davos, all of those things unexpected, but everybody is quietly having an opinion without getting into them. And Prime Minister Karne just declared his and there was a strategy and a reason for it. Now, I'll jump right out of politics and get into the advertising space. This is what we get paid for, an informed opinion that one agency, you be it, you know, mischief or widen or rethink or in common, they'll come in there and tell you why they think what they're thinking, rather than just placating the moment and winning the meeting. And I think, you know, it's funny, in strategies specifically, we're so often told to be unbiased and I appreciate that in terms of appropriately interpreting the audience, but I often speak to the team. I'm like, forget that. Have a fucking opinion. Be biased, not in your research, but in your rationale. Tell them why you feel this way. You feel this way. Be an investigative reporter more than an objective observer of the world. That's where the excellence comes from. And so I think this is, you know, we talk about this a lot. I think people coming up with an answer and having 50 slides that don't matter. And one, and one that does, I'll tell the team, like, what is your point of view? Why is that point of view and be clear about it, but also be open to changing it, but have that point of view. And I think Prime Minister Karin, you know, for a big example, strong opinions, a weekly held, a love lap phrase. Well, that's it. And that's one of our principles, obviously not our words, but that's what it is. Like, I reserve the right to change my mind if you say something motivating. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His fascinating, you talk about the example of kind of going out there on a podium and being willing to be divisive and not to jump back into the politics example as a distraction, but as he credit where it's due for Prime Minister Karin, but the one of the exercises that we often take agencies through, you know, we talk about creating a market of one, it's like, what is the point of view of this business? You know, what is it that gives us something that we can rely on to be a guide or, you know, the kind of lighthouse, if you like, or North Star, whatever you've preferred metaphor, but something that shows us the way when, you know, when push comes to shove. And, you know, every agency, I think, has the capacity to do this really well, but, you know, sometimes it takes more pushing than others to get them to really recognize that it's important to be divisive on some level. So we do, we have something called the podium test, which is all about imagining you're going into a room full of your, all of your ideal clients, they've all got money, they've all got like real desire to work with you. They think you're great. And, you know, the urgency, but you've got to say that we believe XYZ and you've got to, you know, alienate half the room as well as excite the other half the room. And, as I say, sometimes that, that sort of, you know, that unwillingness to stand for something and that, um, weariness of being anything other than just sharing platitudes. Sometimes we have to push pretty hard to get past that. And it still surprises me. Having done this for 10 years, it still surprises me that agencies are not willing to start with a point of view more. What's your take on kind of what's in the way? I think there are structural things. And then I think there are strategic things. In the conversations I have, I've come to think about this a lot to understand the structural things. I think the reason that independence are doing so well right now is they have the point of view. We're fucking nailing the podium test. Summer, summer. Because again, I have a strong point of view. So I think a lot of indies are saying we're great. We're independent and they're not going much further than that. Okay. That's fair. But I think there's a lot of network agencies that aren't even saying we're great. They're saying yes. We'll do that. And so I think a little bit of it is revenue retention, billing hourly. Because if your goal, like oftentimes we think in the past few years, we've grown quite a bit. And I often get questions about growth. And my answer is always the goal is in growth. The goal is good. That point of view will at times cost us money. But if we're diligent to it, it always comes back and we grow. But it's important at what order you look at these things. It means saying no. We have the ability to do that. And I guess to your point, Robin, some agencies maybe are saying it and not doing it. I'm telling you, we've done it. We've walked away from over $5 million clients over the way it's working and what it's doing to our agency. And we have walked this walk many times over. We've walked away from pitches. We've created processes in terms of how to manage relationships. We've actually, like, we've got to be honest. walked away from a client and then years later come back because conditions change and we're always open to it. And this is not a bristle frustrated approach. It's just saying, if the goal is good, you have to be true to that. If the goal is big, well, the good's gonna go down and you're gonna have to say yes more often and your point of view is diluted. And so I think if your focus is on good, the potency of your point of view tends to rise but it has to rise in proportion with your ability to listen to not having the point of view doesn't mean you're right. So that's just another thing to recognize. - Well, let's literally it, it's need to believe. And I think that's another hurdle that agencies have when they're thinking about, what is our overarching perspective on the market, on the audience, on the way the world is evolving on what great work looks like. It's not something that needs to survive, the rigor of an in-depth interrogation from an army of lawyers. It is just your point of view. Now of course you need to stand it up but it doesn't mean that you can't be influenced or evolved around it. You've got to show up with something, right? You do not invite Sean McDonald into a room so as to placate the situation. That's not what the fuck I'm there for. I am there to, I will have a point of view. I will have a strong opinion loosely held but I will do us the favor of committing to something. - If only to get the ball rolling as opposed to like you say to win the meeting, right? - And this isn't a game. I'm just telling you, my ADHD brain arrives at things quickly. It also means I can process things quickly. I think it's a gift, not a challenge. And so I will offer a point of view, a focal point for us to either pursue or to push off of, right? And I think that done well and I've learned to do it better and better through my career. And I'm trying to lead a department of people that can have that point of view. People are grateful for it. If you come in and you are just runestly empathetic and we just want everybody to say the thing and make no calls, that's gonna be inefficient. It's gonna take forever. And though you wanna appreciate everybody's learning and communication style, you need to work at a pace and a point of view will drive a pace. Allowing everybody's point of view to be heard in some ways important. But I think if you're not making a bet, I think you're wasting some time, frankly. - Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting. I wanted to cover off one more area, perhaps before we bump up against the time that we have. And it's really a kind of an emerging point of view about the ongoing case for network-owned creative agencies. So again, it's a very lumpy average that gets smoothed out but we hear a lot about how network-owned creative agencies are not where the money is made within the holding company businesses. And we could talk about the reasons for that until the cows come home. But I think broadly that seems to be a reasonable trend. Given that there is more work being in-house than ever before, given that AI is gonna automate a lot of, continue to automate a lot of work as well. It's certainly at the low end of the market, or bottom end of the funnel, however you want to characterize it most loosely. When we look at often the most creative, the most well-regarded, the most influential agencies of the day, generally speaking, we're looking at independence at the moment. And again, there are a variety of reasons for that. But I'm curious as to, you know, if you look at the ongoing client demand to have a creative agency on hand, whether it's on retainer or just sequential projects throughout the year, is there an argument that there is no value to be had in that agency being network-owned anymore? If your agency is network-owned, the goal is growth, not good. And therefore they will always choose, and this is not even an opinion, just the evidence is everywhere. They will choose to displace people with more affordable options, to consolidate brands don't matter, scale matters more. I think there's a bit of a reckoning happening there. I wouldn't be as explicit as what you said. But I think in arriving at an agency, some agencies will come and tell you, "Here are all the attributes that you should buy from us." But I also think you should look at the intention of that agency and what philosophy you're buying into. And I don't know why I personally would choose a network agency if their philosophy is growth primarily. Because that means their primary goal is revenue extraction from my business, not the success of my brand. And so if you want a long-term relationship that's focused on good, the in-going assumption is they're going to be obsessed with the success, quality of work, and impacts of that work, the relationship. And so I guess I look at it overall, and I guess I just structurally say, what's the in-going motivation of your agency partner? If I were a marketer, I would be looking for the people that want good, not growth. If people are good, they get growth. But if your goal is good, you might not sell the best recommendation. You might look to just grow your services before you increase the effectiveness of it. I think the motivations of your partners are really, really important because they may not be cleared every meeting, but they are in every action and in every choice that happens throughout your relationship. And I think when I look at independence, not every single one to your point, but generally they're there because the alternative was unacceptable. The way of working, the focus on the work, something irritated them. And that's where we think came from, is that this is not going to help us set the standard. And so if you're working with rethink, we can tell you and show you how and all the ways and why we're trying to set the standard. And I think that is worth more money than somebody who just wants to extract revenue from your business. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to challenge you back slightly on that. And the reason I asked that question because I wanted your point of view from your perspective. But I suspect it's perhaps more of a gray area in between, because inevitably, rethink wants to make money uncommon, didn't stop wanting to make money when have asked for them. There is a balance to be struck between absolutely focusing on doing great things and recognizing that, you know, higher revenue and higher profit will come off the back of it. But actually, I think it's a fascinating time for the industry is we're so good at these binaries is India versus network as if that's a clean distinction and clearly isn't a clean distinction. It's not a clear distinction, but here's the one I'll challenge you back. You had to name me an agency that got better after I was purchased in all of history. There isn't one. But again, I don't know if that's true or not, but there are certainly network agencies out there doing good work. - No, no, they're doing good work. I'm just saying it doesn't lead to, listen, just so you know, many of my friends, colleagues, the work at network agencies, and they, I appreciate so much. It's the philosophy they're surrounded by that I worry for them and I look at them because it doesn't allow an absolute focus on the best work, the best outcome, the best use of their talents. And all I'm saying is it's clear when you're not in a publicly traded scenario because the nuance to your point is, we are happy to decline in revenue so as to say good. It is not an unacceptable, like if we think we're to have a year of contraction, that's an unacceptable outcome. It's an unacceptable outcome for a network agency, but if it was in the service of our goal of setting the standard, we would accept it. Now, listen, not in perpetuity, but what I'm saying is our motivations even in the face of loss would remain focused on setting the standard. Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I love the commitment to this notion of setting the standard. And I think probably I can certainly feel it. People listening will certainly be able to feel it. But if you don't stand for something, then what have you got at the end of the day? At best, the hot streak and the sort of maintain consistent standards and to make the improvement of those standards the thing. That's where that consistent personal growth, fulfillment of professional fulfillment. And I agree with you in as much as I think the better you do, the more the commercials follow. Very fascinating time in our industry. And I really appreciate your challenge back. I think we're pretty much at time in which case, I'm gonna ask you one more quick question we often ask our guests to wrap up. So Sean, what makes you most optimistic about the future of agencies? I think when I look at the faces of my colleagues and those are the marketers and within rethink and my friends and colleagues in the industry, when I see the gratification of standard setting work of surprisingly good outcomes, I think we're all motivated in various ways by that. And I don't think that the tools that we use to get there are gonna demotivate those that are focused on great outcomes. And so when I look at most frequently distressed in terms of AI or independent versus not, what remains true is there's a core of people that are obsessed with finding any process, tool, methodology to make the work better. And that emotion is, for those of us that really care, is irresistible. And I think that remains. And so we're going to see continued innovation, technologically, procedurally, creatively. And I have seen absolutely no change in our appetite for that. And so I find myself completely like unafraid of the future and just really motivated by all that we can do with what arrives in our doorstep every single year, be it technology or a learning or something. So if that energy doesn't fade, then I think, like, you know, nor will our creative outcomes in this industry. So that passion is certainly very probable and present. And that gets me very optimistic. - If I had to guess, I probably could have bet my house on getting a great answer from you. (laughing) - Appreciate it. - I love the tangibility of that. If we keep the thing the thing, then we don't need to worry too much about the rest. I love it. In which case, Sean McDonald, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a tour de force of passion and commitment to what you believe in. And kind of, it's a good way to run an agency. It's a good way to run a life. So hats off to you. So thank you for being on the show. - Thank you very much, Robin. I appreciate it. - See you soon. Bye-bye. - Thanks for listening. This has been the Immortal Life of Agencies. If you've enjoyed the show and happened to see one of our social posts, then please do hit Repost to help us reach a wider audience. And if you do, I will personally buy you a pint. And if you're curious about creating a market of one for your own agency, visit codifinary.com by the link in the show notes. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next time.