513: Rethink Resistance: Using Neuroscience to Help Clients Move Forward with Travis Hahler

Hi, this is Meg Wrenschler, host of the Star Coach Show. Before we get to today's episode, I'd like to personally invite you to something special. Are you a coach who's still the best kept secret in the room? You've got the training, the heart, and the drive, so why isn't your business growing? I have mentored more than 2,000 coaches, and I've seen it again and again. Talented coaches who think they've done everything right, but cannot figure out why they aren't filling their calendars. And it has nothing to do with their skills. That's why I'm hosting a free live masterclass from Secret to Sensation. In 60 minutes, you'll learn the real reason great coaches struggle to build their businesses. How to create a message that really lands and draws people to you? And why going it alone keeps you stuck? Because as I always say, you cannot be a secret and a success at the same time. It's free, it's live, and I'll stay for your questions. Save your seat at starcoachshow.com/masterclass. Alright, let's get into today's episode. I use this word, it's a scary word, Mike, really it is. Curiosity. Curiosity. And there's a lot of ways you can go with this. But one of the things that you can do to battle that kind of natural instinct push is to become almost weaponizingly curious. And to go and say, I want to know why. Instead of me taking in and assuming I know all the answers and assuming it's me and it's on the problem where I know exactly why they won't do it. Going and being aggressively curious and saying, what is it that you're feeling? I feel that there's some resistance here, what are you feeling in this moment? What does that look like? Welcome back to the starcoachshow. I'm Meg Wrenschler and if that clip just made you think of someone, maybe even yourself who's been digging in their heels about something, you're exactly who today's episode is for. My guest is Travis Hailer, author of "Rethink Resistance," embracing neuroscience to lead to transformational change. Over the past 15 years, Travis has guided more than 100 companies, including Google and Salesforce, through major change efforts. That track record has earned him a nickname that I just love. The resistance fortune teller. Now, the core idea of this conversation is that resistance to change isn't something to eliminate. It's your brain giving you information. Travis walks us through six specific neurological barriers and how to respond to them. As he puts it, every change is lost, even changes that we want. We get into why high performers are often the most resistant people in the room, not the least. We talk about what happens when an organization skips the rest stage of learning. And I even shared a story of my own, my son holding onto the banister of our old house the day we moved. And I think that that story will stick with you the next time you're coaching someone who's leading a change. Travis is going to leave us with a framework that we can start using today. Six barriers, six questions, and a completely different way to sit with a client who says that they want something and then can't seem to move forward. And as always, there's a bonus. After we wrapped up the main conversation, I asked Travis about vulnerability. What happens when a leader feels like they have to act like they know or that they're comfortable with change, even if they're not. His answer is honest and maybe a little uncomfortable in the best way. Now that content is available exclusively to the star coach community. If you're not yet a member of the star coach community, check it out at starcoachshow.com/member. If you would like a home base for your coaching, a place to lean into being the best coach you can be and have support and guidance along the way, you might very much be looking for the star coach community. So check it out at starcoachshow.com/member. All right, it's time to get into it with Travis Halor. Travis Halor, welcome to the star coach show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Well, everybody's going to be glad that you're here in two seconds when we talk about the fact, okay, ladies and gentlemen, as I welcome you to the show, I just want you to know that what Travis and I are talking about today is resistance. And I got to tell you Travis before I welcome everybody as I'm welcoming everybody that just the other day in the star coach community, the coaches were like, how do we deal with resistance? It is like, oh my gosh, and I told them, I've got a guest coming up that you're going to want to hear because this whole concept of resistance. I happen to think that we as coaches get wrapped around the axle and like tell ourselves stories about it. So excited about what you and I are going to talk about. And all of you listening, I just want to welcome you to the show, let you know that each and every week we're going to dive into some strategy tool or resource to help you as you navigate your coaching conversations is you help your clients reach their goals. And this whole concept of resistance isn't that something that can potentially get in the way, especially if we get caught up in our heads about it or we get wrapped around the story with the client. So that's what Travis is here to help us talk about today. If you like what we do here at the star coach show, take a second and subscribe wherever you're listening. So let me tell you about this incredible guest we have today because I was super excited when Travis and I got connected and then I got to learn about the work that he was doing and then got to like bring it to all of you. So that's sort of the path that we walk Travis is the author of a new book rethink resistance embracing neuroscience to lead to transformational change transformational change isn't that the very thing that we try to help our clients do. Travis is bringing unusual combination of backgrounds to this conversation so imagine this he's conducted EEG research in Denmark. He studied neuropsychology at Harvard he's earned an MBA and then he's led transformational work with companies like Google Salesforce just small little companies you'll want to look up just in case you've never heard of them he's done some real incredible work so over the past 15 years. He's guided more than not 10 companies not 50 companies he's led more than 100 companies through change efforts and that has earned him the nickname of the resistance fortune teller we're going to talk about what that's all about and how he got that but he's got this uncanny ability to look at where transformation might stall. Now this core message is and then I'm going to shut up and let Travis talk with this core message is one that I think every coach needs to hear resistance to change isn't a problem to eliminate it's wait for it it's your brain giving you new information information that our brain is sharing oh my gosh Travis welcome to the show I know that was long but you just like have. Such a path that you've walked and such an incredible message to share with our audience so i'm so excited that you're here well thank you so much for such an amazing introduction I can't wait for this conversation I absolutely love the coaching community and I think the work that she all do is so amazing and I can't wait. We to kind of peel back that onion of resistance for all of you because I know it's the frustration of your day isn't it if we choose to look at it that way absolutely so let's turn that on its head and start with like your book it starts with the idea that human nature. Fight change and you said it's like trying to teach a cat to such which I thought was was kind of fun we had to share that we had to open up with that so where does that instinct to fight resistance come from and then we'll talk about how we as coaches can help people kind of deal with that yeah well and if I think about you know the coaching community and the people that you're typically coaching right their leaders they're wanting to do great amazing things they have teams. of teams. sometimes it might be their first time in a real leadership position. So that instinct to kind of push harder and to fight against that resistance is really a knee-jerk reaction to their own fear of inadequacy. And sometimes they're ego in that and thinking, oh my gosh, like, is it me, is it my ideas? Do they just not trust me? You know, they start to really get very into themselves and your natural reaction when you're kind of turning inward and looking at some of yourself and saying, I, the problem is to say, I don't like that conversation. I'm just gonna make them do it. They're gonna do it because I'm gonna say, and I'll prove 'em wrong. I'll prove 'em wrong that it's not me that they should have done it in the first place and it was always a good idea. And so we get that immediate fight to battle it. And that's just so natural in us and so natural in the way that we as I think leaders feel when it comes to driving large scale change. - Oh, so good. - And I just wanna, like, zero in on that for a second. For all of you listening who are coaches, that same concept that Travis is talking about, be honest, does that bubble up inside of you when you've got a client who says, I want to do XYZ in this coaching? And then you're getting close to a new revelation or a transformation and all of a sudden the client starts backpedaling and you think, I'm a great coach, why is this happening? It's not about you as the coach, just FYI. So the ego that Travis is talking about leaders is the same ego hit that we can take as coaches. And what do we wanna do with that instead, Travis? - Yeah, so I use this word, it's a scary word. Mike, really it is, curiosity, curiosity. But one of the things that you can do to battle that kind of natural instinct to push is to become almost weaponizingly curious. And to go and say, I wanna know why. I feel that there's some resistance here. What are you feeling in this moment? Oh, how does that show up for you? What could I do to help you through that feeling? What is it that you need in this moment? Being very curious about what's happening and then to yourself too, right? You do that to other people, but you do that to yourself too. So when you feel that push to say, oh, I'm gonna battle this and I'm gonna go to war against this resistance, take a minute and get really curious with yourself and be like, why do I feel that? Why is this coming up for me? Is it something I'm fearing? Do I have a fear here that this is a fear response? Is it something that I feel like I just don't have what I need to be able to go forward? And so I'm just gonna battle instead. I'm not gonna try to move through it. Getting really curious with yourself and with others is the next step in battling that resistance in truly battling that resistance. And what I mean by that is understanding it because we don't fight it, we understand it. And that's how you actually break down resistance. So you work with some major companies. Whether it's a small company, a large company, you're basically asking the leaders step into curiosity. So our audience here is primarily coaches who I can imagine are thinking, how do you go into an organization and say, I want you to be more curious. And how is that being received when you do that? - It's a great question. And yeah, the organizations I work with are huge, typically my current organization at Salesforce is 80,000 at Google. When I joined, they were 80,000, when I left, they were 180,000 I think. And so they're growing a lot. But the thing that I find with a lot of leaders and people who are truly leading others and that could be coaches or could be corporate leaders is that their internal instinct and desire is to do good and to help others. And I've never met a leader that says like, oh, I don't care at all about my people. They all do. And so appealing to that, part of being able to appeal to that is talking to them about, hey, instead of us versus them, instead of getting into that mentality and that's what battling resistance puts you in. It's a you versus them. Instead of that, let's put us together. And the only way to do that is through empathy. And the only way to be empathetic is to understand. And the only way to understand is to be curious. And so if you can get that curiosity, you can build that understanding with that understanding you build empathy. With that empathy, you actually get to help people through the challenges that they're facing with the work that's happening. When it's framed that way, leaders are very, very willing to try it. Maybe they're not willing to say, yep, I'm all in, but they're at least willing to try it. And they can see where it makes the difference. And that's where to go back to the book for a second. The book lays out a framework, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, but it lays out a framework of barriers and understanding those barriers helps drive that curiosity and helps drive that empathy and understanding. And that's kind of how those two things play together. So I wouldn't say that people are jumping up and down every time we talk about the curiosity, but once you put it into perspective, what curiosity buys you, which is connection, most people are really willing to play with it. - You know, and in my experience, leaders tend to be promoted because they're really good at doing a particular thing. They're promoted from individual contributor to leader because they're a great engineer or they're a great ops person. And they want to be able to be good leaders. So often they're like, oh my gosh, if you have a way for me to be a better leader, let me explore that. But they still have that skepticism about, really, is this really what's gonna get me from point A to point B? So in your book, you walk through several parts of the brain and how each gets tied to a different reason that people resist change. And that's where that neuroscience comes in. And I know that the audience is like, ooh, how does the brain work within all of this? So if you had to pick just like one thing that leaders tend to get wrong or maybe even like, it's framing it more positively instead of the part that they get wrong. Well, what's the piece that tends to be maybe the low-hanging fruit that you can help them step into this concept of how our brain is engaging with this whole thing? What might be a low-hanging fruit you can give us? - Yeah, and this is the question I get all the time in terms of what's like the one thing that I could change? I call it the Monday move, right? What can I do Monday? And one of the things that we as leaders and I think people who help leaders too, what we experience a lot and we don't do it well in our corporate roles or in our professional lives, because we've been told, right? I mean, you've been told this, Meg, where personal and professional, they're separate, right? They're separate people, right? And our world kind of accepts that as like normal. That's not normal. It's the same person that shows up at home that shows up at work and you can't tell me that they don't intersect, right? So we've been told that though for a very long time. And so one of the things that we've kind of put into our personal self and not brought into our professional self most of the time is this idea of empathy and understanding. And what I mean by that is most change and most transformational change, especially one of the biggest barriers to being able to actually make that change happen for someone is rooted in fear and loss. And that loss, and I say this with all of my chest, every change is loss. And there's a lot of leaders who will come up to me and say, well, what about a promotion or the new house you've been wanting, the new car? I'm like, yeah, that old car had your memory seat. It knew exactly where you loved to be, right? You had to give that up to go to the new car, right? It's little things and maybe it's small, but there's still losses that you have to move away from in order to move towards something else. And as leaders in professional settings, we oftentimes don't acknowledge that loss and we don't acknowledge that fear within that loss, that people are experiencing as we're trying to get them through changes or we're trying to get them to transform themselves. And there is fear there. And you know, one of the things that I talk about and I like in some of those two is if you think about weight loss as an example and that's a big thing right now, we're always talking about it. I mean, we've been talking about it for decades at this point, but people are like, well, what would be the loss of losing weight? It makes you healthier, objectively makes you look better, all those things. But that weight was something to you, whether that was, you know, a coping mechanism or that was something that protected you or something you felt comfort in, there's something there that you still have to give up to move towards the thing, even though objectively you know that you wanna be healthier and you know that you wanna make those choices to be healthier. And so when you even want it, there's still that loss that exists. And I think this community knows that maybe. better than anyone. As you brought up that example of like as a leader we're making a decision but it impacts other people as well. I thought back and I haven't thought about this in years Travis but it's an example that might help the audience years ago like my children were in fifth grade and second grade and now they're adults out on their own. We made a decision to sell our house and to buy another house like just we needed to have a house that was better for teenagers in my mind. So we are trying to get the kids out the door and finish they were going to go spend the night with some neighbors while we were getting the house done and out we had to turn it over at 8 o'clock the next morning and my oldest child literally held onto a piece of the banister and we just the day we got a nice new house that we're moving into and he held onto that banister and he said you don't understand this is the only house I've ever known and here in my mind it was like we've got this great house that we're moving into but my decision was impacting him and his perception was you're moving me out of the only home I've ever known and it was just heartbreaking and also I was like but you need to go I've got to get got to get that also but it was just that perspective right like for him it was such a loss and the way I was looking at it was this is a new exciting thing that we're going to do and so you know like as a leader are you like this is a new exciting thing but your people are like you're making me like go of something that was that's a heart wrenching thing for me so yeah absolutely and Meg if I can dig into your story for one second I'm curious as you're trying to get everyone out of the house and all the boxes packed and and all the things out of the cupboard and you know make sure you didn't leave anything somewhere right how I wonder how long after that did you kind of feel your own little bit of grief maybe the first time that you're like oh I do miss that one thing about our last house because oh and it was a view you know because it was a house that we built together and it was the house that we had both boys in yeah but it did take like in that moment it was like we're under a deadline here we got to get out the but there were many times I looked back and thought oh that backyard was so awesome or we did this or we did that so there was there were stages of grief of letting go of that house and obviously they were feeling that grief because when one boy gets upset the other boy gets upset right so they were just like and we were feeling like the worst parents ever that we just like sold the house oh yeah so that's oftentimes what our leaders are dealing with too is that they're sometimes so focused on getting their people to move that they also haven't taken the time to move themselves and so we read that resistance that sometimes they didn't even know existed and it comes up later and so sometimes it's really interesting as we're helping others through some of these you know transformational stages and those people that do have teams sometimes like no I'm good I just need you to help me with my team and so again getting back to that curiosity a little bit asking those questions where are you at with this too because don't leave yourself behind in that process as well because you definitely don't want yourself to feel the grief a month later when then you're struggling to stay above water because you have just now felt all the things that you should have been feeling throughout the whole journey are all coming crashing in on you as a leader because you spent all your time helping everyone out right oh yeah so I think we set the stage beautifully to walk into your framework where do you want to start oh this is a great question why don't I give you the overview how does that sound like that sounds awesome lift notes version of kind of the framework so the framework itself is made up of six barriers and neurological barriers and this is all about natural resistance and I think that's an important framing because oftentimes we get into a conversation about resistance sometimes we're talking about two very different things there's natural resistance and this is what happens in our bodies and we don't have to necessarily think about it and it's just the way we react to change and how we resist things and then there's actual resistance which is I've made a decision to resist something very different things very different we're talking a lot about natural resistance here and so the six barriers are the natural ways that our bodies react when it comes to change and how that shows up as resistance and it talks about six different areas of our brains that activate through this journey so and each one of them is paired with a chapter that talks all about that one barrier and all about how good how to overcome it so to walk you through we've got the basil ganglia and our routines we are in love with our routines it's efficient it's effective and our brains love it it saves us a ton of energy so that's our natural resistance to changing they don't want to give that up so then on the other side we have to rebuild those habits through things like repetition and learning and time all of that you've got this would be maybe where we hear what we've always done it this way right exactly exactly because it's easier it's easier for people to say this is what I've always done and I like it and this is especially impactful for your high performers that you're coaching because high performers and oftentimes this is the myth I'll bust the myth oftentimes high performers are seen as the ones that aren't resistant ever they're the easy ones right because they're the overachievers not true their routine has led them to success it is the formula for success so they actually feel more resistance than others in the workplace so when you've got a high performer that you're coaching and you're just like why can't you let go of this like you're so good at everything and they just can't it's because they they're clean to think yeah for success and it's their routine right yeah so that's your routines that's number one the second barrier that goes hand in hand with it is that our prefrontal cortex and learning need a ton of energy in order to be successful so in order to move away from routines we have to learn something new and in order to learn something new we have to expend a lot of energy because all of our routines go out of the go out the door so we need to enable real learning through pacing and actually giving people time to go through the learning modes and what a lot of people don't understand is that there are stages to learning it's learn do let it sink in and then rest and we always forget that fourth one the rest it's important that people rest in between to let it's actually become part of their new routine and their learned way of doing something so that's when you see a lot of people who are really struggling with trying to learn something new it's usually because we've jammed all the learning into a day or a week and it's just not enough time for people to really take it all in and so you meet that resistance right there right but how does that also when organizations are like we'll give you a two day training and then just like look they don't have any time so they do a training Tuesday Wednesday they're back to the regular job on Thursday when does it even sink in or that rest piece to let it kind of anchor in yeah and it doesn't give any time at all for that and as we know and as we experience this people when pressure gets high we revert back right right so when you've got to go right back to the grind on Thursday and you spent Tuesday Wednesday learning something brand new and all of a sudden you got to go do work what are you going to do you're going to use what you've always go back to routine exactly so the learning doesn't actually get a place and you don't actually get the time to do it so that's your second barrier so that's what I call the energy levels so that's all about energy it's all about our routines and about learning and how much energy it takes to move away from those routines now we get to what I call the protection modes which are the very first one is our interior singular and exclusion and so exclusion for our bodies is a very very difficult thing to have and that goes back to early us as humans if you weren't part of the group you didn't survive right and that was ingrained in us we have a biased towards grouping together and becoming a group of people and so when we feel that exclusion which changed naturally is exclusionary because someone else made a decision that they're then asking you to do we immediately resist that we feel that exclusion we feel that other ring from someone else and so the only way that we can actually overcome that is by creating ownership through inclusion and a lot of folks get really concerned about this one and especially people that I work with because we have 80,000 people how do you include 80,000 people in a change right the short answer is you don't but you make it an option that someone can be included if they need to be so it's things like okay I'm going to you know provide everyone with a place to give feedback just the ability to provide feedback All right, feedback. and it's inviting. It's inviting. It's providing that open door, right? So if you don't just sit down and have focus groups with 80,000 people, but you do need to create moments of inclusion throughout that process. So that's that exclusion. And then we move into the the big one ambiguity, right? And that is what I'm going to say everyone on this listening to this podcast is probably saying, oh my gosh, I hear about ambiguity every single day from my people that I'm coaching because it's oftentimes why we're going to a coach, right? Because we don't know what we don't know. Yeah. That ambiguity exists. So again, our fun anterior single it doesn't love that ambiguity because when we are in an ambiguous situation, we make it up. Our brain says, what do I know? What's the data tell me? And I'm going to make a story up because we need to know if we need to prepare for the worst case scenario, right? Right? So we deviate towards negative. So the only way that we can overcome that ambiguity is through trust that we build with frequent and transparent communication, the way that we talk about the change, the way that we introduce change, the way that we interact with our teens. And so ambiguity becomes a major barrier to people moving forward because we're preparing for the worst all the time, right? But transparency is what I'm hearing you say, transparency can help kind of with that fear with the what do I not understand? What's not being said? Exactly. And how am I being excluded? Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of folks are like, well, I'll be transparent during this one and then it'll be all different, right? No, it has to be built through trust, right? So you've got to be transparent time and time again. And it has to show up that way. And then you've got your migdala and anxiety. We all are in these anxious states. And your migdala is the area of the brain that has your fight or flight response, right? And so that is in itself probably the biggest determinant of whether or not someone can actually change. It is how much change are they taking in at one moment? How overwhelmed are they by all the things in their life that build up to having to do different things? If they're completely overwhelmed by too much, they are not going to be able to move forward. That anxiety will become crippling until they can determine how to move forward. And when that happens, we can't actually change because we shut down the processes that allow us to change. So in order to overcome that, we have to inspire adoption through modeling. We have to show that it's safe. We have to reduce the fear and anxiety that exists around that change. And we have to lead people through it. And that brings us to our last one, which is our limbic system and loss. And we already talked a little bit about that. And that's really driving that resilience through that empathetic connection and how we provide that empathy and acknowledging the loss that exists within change. So good. So you go into organizations to help them walk through change and to acknowledge with your framework. So often the audience is very curious about like what kinds of results do you get? Like when you're able to bring in a framework, make it make sense, included as something that people can use to navigate change. What are you seeing in the organizations that you work with? One of the things that I think is the most beautiful about bringing neuroscience and understanding of neurology into the way that we lead people through change and the way that we help people transform even themselves is that it creates incredible connection because you see someone for who they are in the journey that they're going through. And in doing that, people then respond back with connection. When you feel connection, you respond with connection, right? So what I'm seeing is leaders coming back after implementing this framework and saying, my team is so cohesive. The psychological safety is really high. Like we're able to have conversations we've never had before. And I feel like I know them at a deeper level than I've ever known them before just by understanding where their barriers typically show up and what their hot button is. So for me as an example, my big one is exclusion. And I know that about myself. That is the one that really immediately kind of turns me into a resistance. And I know that. And as a leader, I also know that there's an individual on my team who is very much in the space of ambiguity is their hot button. When anything's ambiguous, they're immediately the resistance is, well, we can't do that because XYZ is like they start listing out all the reasons, right? I know that about that person. I know approach that person so differently when we have to do something and how we get it across the board. And I go with all of the information I can provide and I acknowledge the information I can't provide or I don't know yet. And it makes a big difference in how we move as a team together. And so I see it show up in that way time and time again at organizations. And what it does because you're building that connection, it builds culture at organizations that inherently already start to reduce their own resistance to change. And they can move quickly faster, more agile. They can be more innovative. And they feel safer. And down the road, if you go play that all the way out, that improves mental health. It improves how people show up in their homes, in their relationships, in their families. It does make a huge difference not just at the organizational level, but at the personal level too. And I think that's the beauty of this framework is that it truly does change all the way across a person's life, professional and personal. So good. And that just speaks to my heart. So many of the listeners know that after 20 years of being a psychotherapist, I transitioned into executive coaching because so many people coming to see me for psychotherapy, were coming to see me because of dysfunctional workplaces, because of lack of safety, lack of psychological trust and safety. And just, you know, I thought, I've got to be able to do something different to help create safer workplaces. And that's exactly the kind of work you're doing. So that definitely speaks to my heart. I could talk to you and talk to you, but I know that we've only got so much time. So as we're wrapping up, if you had all the great work you're doing and all the research and putting things in practice has taught you, if the listeners could just do one thing, just to begin. So the lowest hanging fruit for working with their clients, what would you recommend? Well, I would really lean into the curiosity that we talked about. And be prepared to ask those deeper questions. When you've got someone across from you and you're trying to get them to do something that they've asked you to do, right? That's the essence. I want to work with you to do x, y, and z. Yes. I want to do this thing. And you're saying they're going, you are the one wanting this. Why are you resisting so much? And having those questions ready to say, okay. And I use this as a framework. I use this as a checklist. When I start to look at someone that's sitting across from me and I'm like, I'm feeling the resistance. What could it possibly be? And there's a question with each of those pieces that you can be prepared to ask that helps kind of target in to say, ah, this is a routine issue. I see. Okay. How do we help you through the routine that you're trying to build from the routine that you have today? So really being prepared with that deeper question beyond just, well, why are you not doing it that if you want it and you acknowledge it? You said, yeah. And we don't want to start parenting our clients or shaping them. No. And that's actually you gave a great example of that, Travis, in that you know that you have a member on your team who has an issue with ambiguity. And so because you know that about that person, you can engage with that person through that lens. And so being able to kind of go through these six potential barriers and determine, is this the sticking point for this client? Then how can I help them with that sticking point? So, so, so good. Travis, we've got a rethink resistance as and it is out now, correct? It is out now. Yeah. Everywhere you buy books. Excellent. So you want to be sure to look that up. We will have links to connect with Travis in the show notes. If you're watching us on YouTube, they're right below this video. Thank you. Thank you for bringing this really important work forward to us and just being willing to sit in that space of here's if you're thinking about it as a leader. And here's you're thinking about it as a coach working with you. I mean, I really made you stretch in lots of directions and I appreciate that. No, no, this has been so fun and so great to talk to you about this work and you know, it's something I'm so passionate about and I love the work that coaches do and I think it's so important and I love my coach. So I appreciate all the work that you all do. It's really incredible. So thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. And for all of you, remember that this topic that Travis is talking about sits right in with that thing that I close each show with and saying that, you know, we're all here on the earth together for a reason. And sometimes it's easier or maybe our knee jerk reaction to look at what makes this different. But let's realize that we all have similar threads running through us and these ask aspects that Travis is talking about, we all have some level of those six barriers in us. And being able to look at what makes us similar rather than what makes us different is what makes us do the heavy lifting together. So, remember that and be kind to yourself, be kind to others. Thanks again to Travis for joining me. And until next week, this is Make Renshler, wishing you the very best for your success. Thanks Travis.