Reshaping Business Models: The Transformational Playbook of Patrick Svensk

Welcome to another episode of Transformers CEOs. Patrick Spensk is CEO of PodX and chairs three other companies. He's a straight-talking senior media executive who's transformed multiple companies as well as the industry. I love disability and willingness to flip between CEO and chair roles, depending on need. His take on what it makes for a great Transformers CEO in media, and his total disregard for career planning and politics, the deep passion for great ideas wherever they come from and entrepreneurship. In addition to Transformers CEOs, I run a successful advisory and consulting company working with CEOs, chairman and investors to deliver successful business transformations. I believe you're going to enjoy this episode with Patrick and please remember to leave comments because here at Transformers CEOs we love your feedback. So Patrick, a serial CEO, six times chairman, and I believe you have updated the Swedish Stock Exchange with over a hundred quarterly results presentations. So my question to you is, have you not had enough yet? No, definitely not. I think a lot of people in my position or my age now, soon turning 60, are saying, oh, it's so difficult and it's boring. It's tedious, takes so much time to either be a share or a CEO of a listed company, but I think it's pure fun. So I enjoy it immensely, probably because you get instant feedback. So yeah, I've done now probably 101 or 102 since that happened, but it's a it's a long straight line without breaking what missing one single quarter. I'm amazing, very impressive. Can you remember your first CEO ship? Yeah, as a CEO, running the business, it was a subsidiary in a today large group, via play group, which I've had some problems lately, but in those days it was part of the owners, the genomic group in Sweden. So I was appointed to sort of managing director CEO of ships at the same time. Very strange, but that was the kind of group it was. We started companies all the time. So in the spring of 1994, I was 27, I was appointed in three CEO of TV3 Sweden, the first commercial broadcasting Sweden. And at the same time of genomic media international where we're going to pick up terrestrial licenses for broadcasting in Eastern Europe. So I was 27 and I've been working for three years. So yeah, that's impressive, that's impressive. Two CEOs at 27. Yeah, one is impressive, two is something special, right? But it wasn't an interim thing on the TV3, but it was it was incredible years, you know, being we were building commercial television in in non-commercial ized countries. I mean, Sweden, for instance, was the the second last company country in Europe before just before Albania to get commercial television in 90s. So yeah, we were out there being pioneers, but it was a lot of impressions to get from from markets like UK, of course. So a lot of to pick up which we did. So we were we were broadcasting out of here for Scandinavia and the later on in Eastern Europe. And then a series of other CEO ships and German ships on the back of that. Yeah, exactly. So I did since the the change of the millennium, I've been a group CEO and or a chairman of both the listed companies product, we all equity owned family offices owned. So I think I got my fair share of everything. Yeah, and it sounds like some of the early experiences were very entrepreneurial as well, which maybe helped you later in life. I think they were and I think there's still more. I think as soon as something has grown a little bit too big, either me or the owners have gotten tired of each other and we have split the departed. So I don't think I've ran a company with more than I don't know, maybe 1,500 people or so. Then it comes to big. So I'm you know, we start over. That's interesting. So the scale of employee terms, at least scale is important for you. No, well, I think I think building is what's come to be my thing to build and scale, but then to to to administer or you know, I draw these you know, big paintings with a lot of color. And then there are better people to do the frames and you know the lightning and all of that to make it really, really good. So I let a lot of people do that. And that's, you know, I've sometimes said also now in the last 10, 15 years that I'm probably a better chairman than I was ever a group CEO. Because it's I don't have to be so much into the details. I can, you know, enjoy helping out with the with the bigger picture, rather than the frames on the lightning. And then I can do more things at the same time. Gotcha. Gotcha. That's that's fascinating. And we'll talk more about that. I'm sure I just want to stay with the CEO ship for a minute. So as you as you took on the various CEO ships and you're you're doing one right now, I believe as well. What what were some of the key experiences you picked up that made you successful in the CEO part of the role? Well, I've been in basically being an entertainment for all my life. And I think being very grounded in the entertainment space has been of great help for me. I can see, you know, CEOs, I can envy them sometimes who have gone from, you know, selling cars to selling watches or or jewelry. And, you know, I've been stuck in media, television, now audio video, and the broader parts of entertainment. But, you know, when I look at it, it probably makes all sense because I was when I was younger, when I was joined in high school and the business school, I, you know, I did did a lot of singing singing and acting and writing and all of that. So I probably wasn't a little bit of an entertainer entertainment from when I was a kid. And I didn't, you know, purposely, as I said, you know, in Sweden, we didn't have commercial television, but we have some, it started then when I was in business school. And so cable TV came some more than the state-run channels. And I couldn't have, I couldn't pay for it because I was glued to the TV set. I couldn't, you know, I would have never finished my studies. But it was a neighbor of mine who he went out in the whole way of the house where we lived in this building. And he always took away the filters. So he could enjoy some of that. And I think he was watching porn, actually, which I didn't, of course. And then, and then, but then, you know, I got stuck. I got glued into the new world of television that came. So, but when I, you know, when I, last year in business school, I was, I was sure I was going to, you know, become a trainee at TetraPack or Procter & Gamble or something like that. Like, those were the hot things in those days. That was back in '90, '91. And then I ended up in West straight and just close to Heathrow in London, outside of London, in the spring of '91, with television as a trainee in a TV station. So, but yeah. And many people would envy you that. I know. And I want to get back to selling cars, as I used to. My father was a car salesman, and my mother was selling bras, you know. So they, isn't that ironic? They kind of crossed over. But isn't that the grass screener? I'm very, very fortunate and I'm happy that I've been able to work with entertainment for them. The same site, your experience is really born out of a very deep interest from childhood up through, you know, university and into, into early adulthood. I didn't admit that at first, because I think it was, you know, I was thinking, I was into, that's a trainee for, for an aluminum company. They, you know, they were making these aluminum profiles and be trainee there. And I thought, ah, God, that's a real job, you know. It's a really industry. I was thinking Eric's own electronics. So I, I was never, it was, this was nothing that I planned, but when I got into it, I got stuck. I did blame headhunters over time, also that they didn't consider me for any other industries. But I realized that we're probably not that, you know, job chip or, ah, yeah, it's been a, it's been wonderful. It's wonderful runs so far. 34 and a half years through. It's congratulations as well. Now, what about when you were in the usuals? Because, taking on a CEO ship at an early age means that you're going to learn by doing, you're going to be thrown in the deep end quite a lot of the time. Was there any key lessons that stand out for you? Well, I had a, I mean, this is probably, I mean, you work with these kind of questions all, all your life, but I think the most obvious and important thing that you can learn as young is that, like, pick your boss, if you can. I mean, pick your boss and then pick, pick a, pick an industry that you are interested in or might be interested in and that is growing. I think it's also, you know when. When you're young, if you can manage to do a lot of things at the same time, then you'll know what you're good at, and you'll develop those skills that you need going forward. So I had fantastic mentor. He'd worked in media all his life, worked for guys like McCormack in the U.S. He was running TWI, McCormack's TV side of the things, and he was the one who started TV3 in Scandinavia, out of London, came back from U.S., so very international guy. I emailed with him last night, so we were in regular contact for our Christmas dinner. He's 82 now, but still there, he's got it. So it was my true mentor, that's important. And what was there a common motivation or inspiration along the way that kept you going in the industry for, has kept you going for nearly 35 years? No, no, I don't know. It's, I'm Vane. I love the, instant feedback, I love the stage. Keeping me, being up there as a frontrunner somewhere where things were changing all the time, must have been important to me somehow. I have to confess, I think that where I could see myself make a big difference was important, not hiding out. And therefore, I was telling a joke about me or my owners getting tired of each other, but that's true. I mean, I've been fired two or three times and I've walked out of situation where I didn't feel that I could offer anything anymore. And I think that's, that's where I want to be. I want to be at the edge. Yeah, you want to be where you want to be as well. That sounds like it's all important. Yeah, and what about family? So as family was developing alongside your career, what would their comment or commentary be on your journey through these various CEO ships and onto chairmanship? I don't know. I'm not the kind of guy who talks a lot about work, neither with friends nor with with my family, not that much at least. I rather, you know, I'm more interested in what others do than what I do myself. But of course, you know, it's, it's, when you sit down and know what is already in the 90s, when you sit down at the dinner party, if I would happen to, you know, be a CFO on that, you know, aluminum profile company, maybe we didn't have that much to discuss me in this woman that I never met who was sitting next to me. So fortunately, we can keep the discussion going by talking about television or audio or whatever. And I think when you and I first met over dinner, you talk to about our media. Exactly. Exactly. So it's, it's, from that perspective, it's, well, I think the family's just been aware that I'm, I am a little bit too much constantly on. I'm, you know, what I've had over the years direct reports from Mumbai to Los Angeles from, you know, Bogota to Stockholm and even so in Africa. And it's, it means that you're constantly on. And, you know, when the kids were small, smaller or younger, I came home for, for 30 or something, did the groceries, cooked dinner. And then I worked from 8 to 10 and then I watched the news and sports and then back to bad means bad. So it's like, but now it's changed. The kids are growing up and, you know, a much more time to both work and, and do other things. And then you also mentioned chairmanship. Yeah. So these are two very different roles and not to be confused. So, and you were hinting earlier that maybe you're better suited to the chairmanship. Do you want to say a little bit more about that? Yeah, no, I saw, as I was saying, I think it suits my personality, not to be too deeply involved in details. And also having several roles, several shares at the same time can be very rewarding and giving me the kind of inspiration that I want. Also, I must admit, also being able to give something to younger CEOs. It's not really my kind of style to, you know, I said that I've had a mentor on my life. But, you know, being mentor myself, it always feels a bit awkward because I don't feel like it sounds like old and I'm not old. But it's, I think, honestly, that I probably enjoy giving the advice, you know, trying to help them along quite often with some, some guys who are 10, 15, 20 years younger than I have. So it's been, that's been very rewarding in many ways. I like that. Currently, I have three chairmanship, two listed companies on one private equity owned and then my own company, colleagues, as you mentioned, where I was starting out as chairman and still serving on the board and being the founder, but now I'm also CEO since one half year back or something. And so maybe a little bit too much. Some of these guys could say, but I enjoyed it. I hope I can carry on. That's great. And what do you, when you're working with CEO, is what's the topic that they most need your guidance on? Would you say? I'd say it's consistency, keeping a, keeping a red line in their communication to the board, externally, internally, younger CEOs or people, but when you're younger, you want to change the world as we know and you want to be all over the place. And I think a chairman's role is to help them prioritize to make them focus and to ensure that there is a clear red line so that the message is received everywhere if it's successful. Otherwise, change it. I think that's important. I'm not being, I'm not knowing myself. I was extremely impatient, ambitious, but really impatient when I was younger. And I may still be a little bit, but then I can at least give them my views and opinions about trying to take time, be consistent, see that red line, make sure everybody understands. And so you know that you've been there. You've, you were the impatient one for a while. What about the setbacks? You have to deal with setbacks as chairman as well. Yeah, of course, of course. That's also extremely important that you've had one or two of those because there, there's a lot of CEOs that maybe do one or two stunts as big group CEOs or for listed companies, etc. And being able to do turnarounds, being able to to come back after failures is super important. I think that's also where you see the difference between those that are really made for it and those that are not. I think no really good CEO has only had success. You've got to have and go through some, some failures. And I've had my fair share. And the CEOs you're coaching, are they transformer CEOs? Some of them? Yeah, but not all of them not always have been so. I, you know, some people joke about when I become chairman of a company, the CEO should be where. By, you know, I try to work with like, you know, it's if it's football ceased and you work with the team you've got, but inevitably after six to nine months, you've got to see how to get it to the next division. And if you've got a, if you have the ability to change some of the players, like the really important one, the CEO, then you'll do it. Yeah. So your ambition continues. This time it's for the brands that you're chairman of. Absolutely. I don't mind taking that responsibility. I think it is my responsibility to shareholders to make sure that we deliver value and that we, that they get the return issued and always focus on not always on the on the largest shareholder, the main shareholder, but also thinking about the ones that are furthest away that's the the least information. And what they would, what they would ask from us. I, I enjoy actually, well, maybe that's my entertainment backup. I enjoy hosting the or sharing the AGMs myself, just to, you know, being able, being there to listen and pick up questions from, from the audience. Some very ill informed, maybe even about what we're doing, but that's, you know, that's what we have to deal with. And what about shareholders? Because as you say, in the AGM, you're the interface to the shareholders as well. Is there an expectation from certain shareholders, whether it's the PE world, the listed world, or something else of, of, of a transformative play in, in your companies? Yes and no. I mean, also as a chairman, you can play different roles. There are, or you should be able to play different roles. And then I'm talking besides sort of the normal governance and all of that. You can either, it depends a little bit on the, the people in the board and where on the journey the company is, but I have shared companies where we where we are doing so extremely well, there is more question of keeping it under surveillance and making sure that we do deliver on our promises and then I've been sharing companies that needs a true and proper turnaround and I've been too fast at times. I've been too slow, more often I think. So yeah, I don't think you should expect if I share a new company, you shouldn't expect me to, or that to be a big, big change because of that. I think if I were, when I become a CEO, that's when you, on a company, a new group CEO, that's when you can expect change. Great. That's great. Now that's a nice link to talk about what you've transformed personally yourself. So can you, can you share maybe one or two examples of what you've transformed? Yeah. So I think if we go back almost 25 years in time, you come to the change of the millennium and we had, for those who are that old, like me, maybe you, B2, okay, when we remember the dot com crisis, which was fun in many ways, when you look back at it and then we've had a few bubbles. I think we are maybe in a bubble right now also to some extent. And at the back of that, I was in, I came out of broadcasting. I moved into production instead, so television production, film and television production. Basically after the dot com bubble burst in 2020, or year 2000, 2001, advertising came down. TV advertising came down drastically and you can cut as a broadcaster is on your program's band and it takes six to 12 months before it gets affected. It's on the true original program's band. So the, that meant that the underlying TV production market, I've been growing like crazy during the 90s in Europe and US and India, other markets, became on the pressure. It was four to many players who have been making money without making great differences basically. So, we saw a lot of problems in during those years with companies going under, the audience, great need for, for consideration, et cetera. And what we did, what I did then was I took over as well group of production companies in Scandinavia and then built a large group where we were 30, 35 production companies in TV and film across 12, 15 countries. And what we did was that we, we really made a huge change from, from, I think we took away 75% on average of the fixed employees of these production companies and went from a focus on having, you know, being steady producers, having all of these, you know, the makeup artists, the cameraman, the audio producers, whoever, that they were, they were permanent employees. And the KPIs and everything was like on, on manning these studios. So I stored it off, we, you know, I sold all technology, I sold all studios, I fired 75% of the people of this Scandinavian group and made sure that we transformed into a developing company that developed ideas and generated new ideas and formats into, and sold those into production and then manned everything basically with 90% of freelance. And that changed the whole culture of the industry. And then we, you know, continued to do that across Europe and other markets. And it really changed the industry from, from being focused on producing, to being focused on developing content. And then our big soap. So okay, yeah, we did, we couldn't scale in the same way so that you see the, the margins on, on a bit level growing immensely, but we had a much more flexible workforce. So we could turn down certain productions, et cetera, and only work with our own IP. And that meant an incredible difference in terms of flexibility, lower risk in many ways, higher risk in terms of, of developing our own shows, but then also being able to self formats internationally and get hub productions of everything from like survivor and paradise hotel and all those kind of big reality hits across the world. And that really built a big group. So yeah, that was a transformation of an industry. Well, I was going to say a lot, lots of things. I guess, you know, it sounds like that built you some huge amount of flexibility you didn't have in your fixed costs where we, we below what they, what they had been. Certainly means you can take a downturn far easier in the competition, maybe slightly slower to come up. I don't know because there's a lot of demand for, for the freelance talent. But at the same time, I, I think, you know, that there's also a number of, there were so many people in the industry, right? That not maybe all were fit for it. So I, you know, being a little bit harsh, I said to people like, right, some of you will make more when, sort of, when we made these changes, some of you will make twice as much nine months a year and then you'll be enjoying your summer. And some of you will have to, you know, drive buses or work in a kid's care or whatever. And that's a harsh reality that you, we became fewer, better, faster, more flexible. Yeah, fantastic. And it sounds as well like, as you said there, you changed an industry, not only your Swedish production company. No, but I think it, I mean, we were in Europe, we were very early on. I think we were one of the, one of the first ones to really consolidate the industry and making the value chain in industry to specialize also because when we got rid of technology, production technology, we got rid of studios, all that. It meant that somebody else had to become best at that. And we worked with them. So, you know, we rented it back and we others became, you know, very good at, at hiring out, free those people, et cetera, et cetera. So together we build various parts of the value chain and we made sure that they were, the companies that were in each part were the best role that them being, you know, owning everything, controlling everything. I think that became a overtime in the industry standard. And of course, I mean, the industry has gone through those kind of changes after that. Well, I mean, I'm doing it now also in, in the podcast world with my company, PodExper, we're basically seeing the same thing. We first come together as a group to share the formats, the ideas, the IP, but we also now see that we can start sharing resources to a greater extent, but especially learning from each other, which are the key competencies that you have to have inside your company and which can you outsource? So, not every podcast company needs a studio definitely not. All of them had in the beginning, not really anybody does. Right. Fascinating. Fascinating. And so these, you said you talked about businesses coming together. That sounds like it's a feature of the transformations you've been part of when you build the value chain. Or does that happen after you've taken the position with your own business? Do you have a kind of first mover advantage in that sense? I think, you know, maybe I'm just the impatient side of myself or that I know that I'm not one of the, you know, the brightest guys around, so I might not be able to invent something that is, you know, totally unique or something. So I often end up in buy and build cases, but that's also a little bit of a skill set, I guess, on how to, I think if someone were to, like, say, in 20 years when I do the last audit of my work life, I'd say that what I managed to prefer, you know, reach the best, the highest perfection was probably how to manage M&A in different, with different company cultures, different national cultures and in creative industry. And that's, that's not like putting together two, two, two factories and just tearing one down and moving over the rest to one, it's, it's a little bit more difficult. So maybe that's where I, I acquired the skill set needed for that. And have all your transformations required M&A? Well, that one could say that that's also when you have to, when everything else fails, you can store to M&A. I mean, there, you know, there's a lot of people think that M&A is a failure, but I think the bigger mergers are sometimes very difficult to justify, but bolt on acquisitions, when you have a very clear strategy or what you can achieve from these acquisitions, I think it's, it's fabulous. I see you all these companies now that are sort of these serial acquirers that are listed companies, they don't, they don't extract any synergies, they that there's, there's hardly anything in a red line between those companies, it's just that they acquire, they, they manage to buy on a low multiple and release on high multiple when they're in a stock exchange. Yeah, that's what I want to do too. But beyond that, I think we often have a strategy that takes us further. And for us, it's always super important to think about the next generation and how to, how to be sustainable and because that's always the kind of question you ask when you're running a company like this in a creative industry. So, so what happens when they leave and they leave, yeah, but I can, I can. tell you 25 stories that's gone sometimes even better when they have left. There are companies, you know, my chairman now at Potex, old business partner and friend of mine, he started the company back in the 90s called Jarowski, Scandinavian producer. I think there's Swedish companies today is bigger than it was at the peak when he was there 20 years ago and that's what's part of our what we were doing and today nobody, they don't even remember him. And so we managed to build sustainable companies through processes thinking about the next generation through incentives and building it all in from the beginning. And that's a skill set. Great, I'd love to come on to that. That sounds fascinating. So just sticking with the idea, because you sound like an ideas man as well, you sound like you come into industries, adjacent industries or existing industries and you see opportunities. Is that a fear? Absolutely. Yeah. Is that the role, is that the chairman role, the CEO role, both doesn't matter. No, I think it's more the CEO role. I'm trying to shy away from probably because of age, but yeah, no, I see I kind of like seeing and that's what gets me go, you know, I haven't again 34 and a half years. I've never ever either been offered or taken up a role that has been sort of published or through the head hunter. Never ever. I've created my opportunities myself by, you know, coming up with an idea or seeing something needed to be done, talking to an owner, talking to, you know, you should put these two to companies together and then, okay, but who's going to run it? Can you run it? No, that wasn't like, okay, I'll do it for a few years and then I do it for more. Yeah, you know, that's I've never, but that's a very impressive fact to get in that. No, I mean, I'm as cool as well. You know, I'm a car salesman, but, you know, still, it's, I've created my opportunities myself. And I, you know, I could sit here and, you know, bloody head hunters, they never, they probably never had anything that I was, you know, I'm probably exaggerating. I know that I haven't gotten one, but I might have been offered something that I turned on, but we'll never know. I can't remember. And what it's so, so you have the idea, you take us through what, what's your kind of playbook, if you're like, you see an idea, maybe it's an industry consolidation idea, maybe it's a major cost play, maybe it's a content creation play. What's your, what's your playbook? How do you, how do you get it from an idea to a reality? Well, if we take the latest one, then I'll put a script. I came out with it, the saucer's ending. I ran a script CEO for a company called Bright Group. And I was on the board first of this company from 2015, I think. We had to let the CEO go. It was a buying build case in the tech side of the entertainment business. So it was basically tech, the solutions for, for big tours, events, concerts, that kind of stuff, consolidator, Northern Europe, fine. So I was on the board, could offer advice. It was private equity owned, but it wasn't doing well. So we had to get rid of the CEO. I got on the board of that, ran that for three years. It wasn't doing super great. I must admit, but we were making progress. We made it ready to for sale. We were about to sell it. Or we had signed everything. We're going to sign the final documents on the 13th of March, year 2020. And the buyers were saying, we need a break close here. And I was home because I had this bloody flu that came from somewhere in the Asia. And I said, okay, yeah, show me the documents. And we'll see what they have. They want this break close because they were afraid of this flu, too. And I said, that's going to be fine. It's just going to pass. And what happened was COVID came and we had to fire 85% of our work force, all our contracts for the summer, all tours and festivals, everything was canceled. And obviously, they pulled out. And then they acquired this one and a half year later. But that was the year 2020. That was a tough year. So I basically, when I couldn't fire 85% of people and justify myself being there. So I handed over to my CFO and left as well. I was still a shareholder. And then they sold it one and a half year later. But that's when I was sitting there thinking about coming out of COVID, looking at what happened in the podcast world, where the consumption made up very much thanks to people, you know, isolating. So they started listening to, I mean, podcasts at that time, it'd been around for five, 10 years. But it really took off. And then at the same time, for old friend of mine, stuff on had decided to leave. He was running bar media in the Nordics radio and done so for 17 years or something. And they were first out launching the podcast platforms, etc. So I said, let's go and have lunch. And we had lunch in November 2020. I told him, listen, I've built three groups, two groups in television and film this one in there. We consolidate the Northern Europe. You've built audio businesses across the Nordics. And you've seen the podcast industry come. This is what I see now. This is what's happening. And so we took a few, a few launches more. And we decided to have a go at it. So we started building the business plan and spring of 21 thought we were going to do it a smaller play in the Nordics. We thought we were going to have friends and family coming, shipping some money, money ourselves, shipping some money. And companies were going to be smallish. And then meeting one of those friends and families, the guy who's now my chairman or our chairman, Saki, who I worked with before he said this is far too good to be on the smaller scale. Let's do a big time. It took us to to Connie Johnson, the equity founder, his family office called, which is like says family office is a huge conglomerate today. And I the pitch, it was still COVID time. So so so Connie was in his summer house in the summer of 21. I pitched it 20 minutes. He was making sandwiches and he said, fine, we'll do this. And then we started building it. And it's now become, you know, much, much bigger than we thought. Well, in North America, South America, across all of Europe. And we've been sort of expanding the plan, but still is the same, it's the same idea again in a new wrapping in a new environment with new people. But I think this one is, this one is going to be the greatest. Yeah, it's so funny. And then also I become the CEO again, stuff I wanted to stand by back. He is older than I am. And we're probably going to take it to the stock exchange in two, three years. And he said, okay, I don't have that in me. And I said, I have it. I'll do it. I'll take it. I'm going to be the best one. A lot of story. That's amazing. It's not going to be the biggest, but it's going to be the best. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Fantastic. Great. Now that's another nice link. Because we had to something you mentioned before that says, you know, this is we're talking about concept and deal making here and funding and ideas. But of course, it's the organization that brings it to life. And I know that's something you're very thoughtful of. And particularly as CEO, you know, you lead, you lead the team, you've been building the leadership team. How important is getting the leadership team right? I have an old saying, you know, when when we start putting companies together in a buy and build case, which is very much private equity language. I don't use that that much. But I say, hi, you know, I come to a producer in a country. Hi, we're here. I've heard about you. You're the best at what you do. It could be a specific showing area or in a specific country or whatever part of the value. I say, we come here because you're the best at what you're doing. We're not here to tell you what to do because you know it down well. But we're here to offer you some enhanced opportunities by joining our group. And we're not here to offer you an exit. That's a side thing that happens. You will be rich, but but that's another thing. I'm asking you to help me build the group. And if I then start sensing that it's the exit side of things that is important, that's not an entrepreneur for us. We want someone who is sort of the local king of the hill to be now a regional or global king of the hill with a lot of other kings on that hill, of course. And that's my job to manage all these. And you could end up with a lot of kings using that. Absolutely. But it's fine. You know, we make them regional kings first and then we'll see take the battles up there and someone is going to replace me eventually. But you know, asking them to do what they're doing. Continue with that. But jointly, way before we sign the papers, start identifying the next generation, finding incentives for them. Because the founders, the entrepreneurs, they're always going to be, you know, if they continue what they're doing and then use the opportunities that we have in our group, then I think they will always be do well financially, and they will come up and work and build the group and inspire everybody else. But it's the next generation who's going to make it sustainable. And that's, I mean, sounds like bullshit, but it's true. That's what we're really trying to do. It is true, absolutely. Because you know, when you have your exit, the owners will move on and then who runs what's left. And so these people are important and it's refreshing to hear a CEO talk so quickly about the reward side of things. So what does that solution typically look like? How do you look after the next generation? generation and I suppose it sent them to perform. Yeah, if we take the entrepreneurs at first, I mean, they could be in their 30s. This could be the first company, the only company that they've ever worked in, their own company. And then looking at what's happened in the last couple years, I mean, we've been building products now. You know, we hadn't bought our first company when Putin invaded the Ukraine. We were on a really good growth trajectory when Trump, this year, you know, threw everything up in the air with the liberation speech and the tariffs. So we've been struggling and for many of these guys, it's the first crisis they've ever spaced. I've had four big crises, you know, having to handle. And that's also, you know, quite reassuring. I think both for the owners and for the younger generation. And then the generation below these guys, they are, they're not maybe entrepreneurs to begin with, but they haven't taken the same kind of risk, but they are very entrepreneurial in their way they operate. Okay. So that's super important to identify. And for the, for the first entrepreneur, those kind of guys, we want them to, we want to own the majority, but not the full, very seldom buy everything in the first three years. We buy 51, 65, 70 percent doesn't really matter. We pay some of that in shares in the group so that they have incentives or cooperating globally and being part of building the group. But they still own a chunk of the business locally. So that's, you know, some of our, several of our companies are making dividends. And they still enjoy the dividends like we get our dividend, they get theirs. But they also have shares in the group that they can see develop a favor, of course. And for the next generation, we try to, we, with option schemes locally and globally try to make them also feel part of the journey by mirroring the same kind of success as their predecessor, their owners are having. And I think that works. I, you know, it's, but I think, you know, we shouldn't be concerned about talking about money, because a lot of, I mean, most people want to get rich and famous. And when you're young, it's 70 percent rich or sort of famous and 30 percent rich. And in my age, it's at least 64 in the other way. You know, it's like with how you do your savings. It's like, no, it's 60, 70 percent getting rich. No, but seriously, I think in, especially in the entertainment industry, people want to create success and being part of creating that success. And that is enough to some extent. Winning awards is great. And getting pads on your back in, you know, in a great night club at the only Friday night, say, oh, did you produce that? That we shouldn't underestimate it. Absolutely. But they also should be rewarded. And, and for us to have the consistency to stay on because they could, of course, move on and do stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, they've got choices. And you talk to make the kind of talent that does well in, in your kind of business. So what I think I heard was a strong entrepreneurial focus. And also somebody who's not just wanting, you know, to cash out, but he's here for the growth journey as well. What, what else would you put on that list? What else do you look for and the people you bring in? Creating success. Success starts with the audience success for us. So we just launched here in the, in the UK, we just launched a new football show called Good Bad and Football with the, yeah, good, good, good, with the pool schools and the Kibats. And they are doing, it's doing tremendously well with the audience. And I was, I was worried because it's a crowded space football in the pool space space or big. And, and a lot of them have been going on for years. Some of those characters, the talent is, it's maybe even bigger than these guys that we're working with. But this is a new format. We format it in a new way. It's like the guys in the pub talking. It's not from the, you know, experts from the top, but it's really the last talking about the games and, and sharing memories and anecdotes and stories. And it's doing incredibly well. And that's what people want to be part of. That's, that's the number one thing in our industry. You want to be part of that success and making that success and making it happen again and again. So you want a big IP, something you can hang your hat on and see I was part of that. We've, we've done, for years, we've done the greatest rugby show in the UK. And, and we're also making a lot of money out of that. We're having a great monetization team with making a lot of money, which is also, you know, the second stage, first stage, always the audience second is, is success among advertisers and brands. And we've now launched that format a rugby show in France, where we have our, our French operations. And, you know, rugby is big in the UK, but it's super big in France. The world cup coming up soon. Yeah. So we're now starting to see that rugby franchise expand as well. We got a world cup in next year, next year in North America in football. We are in markets. We have offices and studios for grand studios. We have offices in Buenos Aires, in Mexico City, in, in New York, L.A. and then across. I think the only country that we're in that is most likely not going through the world cup is Sweden, which is a disaster of course. You need to do something about that, Patrick. Ah, yeah. We'll do the podcast anyway. But that's the kind of thing that tracks talent. That's what, you know, offer talent all night time. That's what you want. Yeah, but people want to be some part of something great. Yeah, absolutely. I'm kind of, I've still got this idea of you acquiring many kings in my head. And so I'm curious about as CEO now and CEO for the next couple of years, at least, let's say you get 20. I don't know, maybe you've already got 20. Maybe you get 30, kings. How do you lead their queens as well? And queens, of course. I mean, I mean, how do you, how do you lead 30 kings and queens? Well, I mean, we've, we've restructured now. So we're more into two regions. But I would say that the regional directors, four regional directors, myself and a few people on headquarters are, we made up of these, these queens and kings. I think some you will have to nurture carefully and it's hard for some of them to let go of their very operational roles and to be more of mentors and help the next generation work. Others are so tired of running their local shop that they just want to just they jump quite quickly. Yeah. And they take on that role as being more of an advisor, more of helping out, et cetera. So I think it's very individual going back to that football analogy, but you've got to play the play with the team you've got them put them inside. You know, I don't think we're hiring that much. We were on a, this is, you know, true story very recently. We were, we hired a very reputable firm in the UK to find a successful trading officer. You know, two, three years going public, maybe I shouldn't be the CEO group CEO forever. And we ended up saying that we got plenty of great people in house. So we made one of our guys CEO, oh, yeah, reorganized a little bit and, you know, we got so many talented people that we can nurture into, you know, to the new positions that we created. So am I right in saying it's not like a corporate blueprint where here's what our structure is going to be like, you're very much talent. Like you're saying, here's the talent we've got. We're ready. These people are ready. These are not, we'll elevate these ones. We'll not elevate these ones and we'll just play that for six months and see what happens. Absolutely. That's how you're you're watching organization. That's it. But still, I mean, it's one important thing that there's no merit that you own a lot of shares in the group company. That's that has nothing to do with your role. Your role is something you earn. The other things that you've earned is from the past. That's what you made in your local market in Poland. Exactly. But now you're it's only married driven and what you can do. So we're sending one British guy over to American out to open up a new opportunity, the new new audience for a new audience that where we're not present at the moment. And that's it's big. So your role as CEO sounds like it's part talent scout part Henry Kissinger. Yeah. In a way, I mean, you, you know, I'm not leaving abroad in the UK. Don't so be forward. There are two types of foreigners or expats. The ones that that talk about the country where you come from. Oh, it's a high taxes or you know, it's raining all the time. And then there are those that are super proud of where they come from and they can't stop talking about it. And I try to be neither. And it's actually being good from one perspective being Swedish when I travel around the 90s in Eastern Europe and so on. Because I could go in there and say we were neutral. And they like Sweden. But I can go in there and even say sorry, we were the cowards during the war. So I'm, you know, is there something we can do help you out here? So I'm, you know, I've traveled the world used the fact that I'm Swedish and being, I mean, we have a decent reputation. We might not be, you know, we're not American or British or French. We might have some kind of very, very, very clear cut national cultures. And I've been using that to my advantage of being Swedish without making a big fuss out of it. But I must admit also now, again, push a little bit what I'm doing right now with podcasts. We come from a country with very strong, currently, and historically, very strong in the audience. industry. I mean, we created Spotify. We created a cost. We've got to, you know, assist a couple of hours, pop house, which is doing above voyage in London, which is doing kissing Vegas in a couple. I mean, we are big in that, in that epidemic sound, like, you know, it's super big unicorn from Sweden, also in the audience space. So, so, you know, Swedish audio, entrepreneurial media entertainment, it's a good background. And we seldom a threat. I mean, you know, I thought there were Swedes and Danes who were fighting the hardest, but, you know, when I acquired, we had a Belgium company back at Sodiak 20 years ago. We acquired the Dutch company on the Belgium's initiative, but they started fighting so much. We couldn't have them in the same room. You know, so, but we're a threat to the Danes. So make the Danes the Scandinavian heads. That's always, that's very important. Never make a Swede. I mean, the Norwegians don't make them heads of anything, but if you do, that's not a threat, but it's not going to go there. Well, sorry Norwegians. I don't have any Norwegians in this group at the moment. So that's fine. But if you can't make the Swedes, because then the Danes are going to do everything they can to kill the Swedes, but the Swedes accept the Danes. And I think, you know, there are these kind of, you know, the Brits and the French Swedes, outside of Scandinavia is very seldom a threat. So I used to. So Henrik isn't just right then. Yeah, he was a very global man, even though he was, he was republican. I wasn't, I am not. You talk a lot about next generation and preparing people, but it sounds like as a listen to your role and how it's evolved over the years, what's the training school for a role like that? I honestly don't, don't know. It's listen, a lot be, be open humble to me. It's like being very honest. And, you know, it's, I mean, for all CEOs and chairman and chairwomen, it comes like, there's a lot of things that are difficult and troublesome, that you have to fire people and restructure and refinance. There's a lot of difficult stuff. If you are as open and transparent and, you know, sometimes even blunt, as you are with your success, then that's going to be easier. The ones that, you know, that's, that's my big learnings that, you know, be candid, be fast, be, be honest. That's the only, that's the only thing I can think of that's, you know, made me stay in the game. And I want to be in the game for a long time too. So I'll stick to that. No, and, you know, one thing also, we, I think would, I mean, we're all different, but I probably couldn't work in a big company, as I said, you know, one more than 1,000 people. Maybe that's when the pyramid becomes a little bit too big for me. And I, I, I, I need to, I need to know people and get to know people and be close to everybody and all their names. And politics is, I'm so, I suck at it. I'm so incredibly bad at it. And, you know, curving your planning and all of that. So, but I am impressed with those who can handle that kind of. So if you, if you have been working in a big, very political company, but you don't really comfortable with it, you're going to be able to use that in a positive way if you come into our part of the industry. So, yeah, get rid of the politics. Get rid of politics. Well, that's a good, that's a good thing anyway, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But, you know, in some groups and some, some jobs I can understand, it's needed, but I suck. I'm really bad at it. So, candid, fast, honest, no politics. Yeah. My next question is around the DNA of a transformer CEO. Have you, have you just nailed it there? Yeah, maybe, but that's more of, that sounds more like personal personality and leadership. But I think for a transformer CEO, you have to, you have to take a couple of bets. You have to be able to articulate and, and explain. But then also make sure that people are empowered and want to walk that, that walk with you. I think it's super important to be repetitive. You can keep repeating. You've got to keep showing evidence and good examples and celebrate success. And be, be on the floor. I mean, again, I'm not a detailed person, but, but be very updated on what's going on. I can't sit in long meetings. I know there are people who work with me that are betting on how long I, you know, I last if it's 15 or 20 minutes, but, you know, it's, it's the worst thing I know, but always still being a, you know, just walk in and out of a meeting or something and pick up the pulse and what's going on. I think that's to transform a company. Because if you, if you sit on your ass in your own fancy office and you, even if you think you're communicating greatly and so on, if you're not out there feeling the change that it's actually happening, it won't happen. And I think what you're also talking about, you talk a lot, you don't use the term, but you, you talk a lot about relationships, you talk about knowing people, feeling the sense, you know, what's the, what's the mood in the room. That seems like it's really important to you. But this is more a question for my therapist, because I'm, I'm, people get surprised when I'm getting very personal now, but I'm actually shy. I, I'm quite a bit of a solitary person. I enjoy being on my own. And I'm not saying that I'm playing a role, but I do. I, as I said, I enjoy the stage. I think it's great being here with you, just talking. I'm grateful as someone wants to listen. So I don't have a problem in standing up and holding, making a speech in 20 minutes without having prepared in front of 10,000 people. I could do that now. Being seated at the round table, like we were when we met the first time at this dinner, with seven people, and I don't know, scares the crap out of me. So I didn't show, it didn't show. Good, but then I played my role well, but I didn't, I'm not comfortable with it. So I try to avoid those kind of things. Therefore it is a challenge for me always to having, you know, within high funds to, to build new relationships when I travel around the meeting, accompany our companies, etc. But maybe it's because I, it's, I don't feel 100% comfortable that I'm actually doing it well because I have to, I have to make an effort out of it. It doesn't just, I know that, I cooked it for us. I don't ever invite me to cook it for you. No, it's it. And if it's a dinner, it has to be at least one or two that I know around the table right next to. Yeah, then I'm fine, then I'm good. So, so, you know, I got to make an effort and making an effort always makes you better. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you may feel uncomfortable in the short time. Exactly. But it's something, you know, over time, I learned to accept. A lot of people watching would love to be a transformer CEO. So you've talked about your personal journey. How do you get to be chairman and with all the experiences you've gathered over the years? What about becoming a transformer CEO? And what's, what's the, what's the root map or the, the college for, for that? Well, as I quickly mentioned, I've, I suck at, you know, career planning. I always think about what's happening. What's right for the company and the owners that work for et cetera, and then everything, the rest will follow. So I'm not good at giving that kind of advice, but I'd say that the, all the ideas that you, yeah, you don't have to, you don't have to think that you have to be a great entrepreneur coming up with this next super duper thing that everybody's going to be using or enjoying or having inside their computer, whatever it is. You can be entrepreneurial and transform a pattern's behaviors by just observing how things work inside a company outside in an industry and, and challenge that constantly and say, what if we did this differently? What if we did that? So you don't have to say, oh, no, I'm not an entrepreneur. Oh, I'm not a change manager. Oh, I'm not the, it's just like, just, just look at the behaviors with the consumers, the buyers, the whoever it is, and inside the company. And, and I guess that's true leadership that you come up with. This is how we should do it instead. You don't have to come up with a new invention, just new ways of working, cutting, cutting the steps in the value of shame, whatever it is. And I think there's loads of people out there that can do that. But I, giving career advice, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Let me flip the question in a different way. If you were looking at some somebody who said, you know, I'm big in the media space. I'd like to be part of one of your businesses. What would be a turn off? What qualities might you see in that person that would say, that person will never work in one of my businesses? Career and politics, career and politics, that you, that you see, that you're too much focused on your career and that you're, that you're very political animal. That's, that's not going to fly in the company that I am important. Yeah. That's clear. That's clear. Yeah. Now, I have a few rapid fire questions just to kind of wrap things up. Okay. So, green to get your, your view on this. The first one is do you think Transformers CEOs are born or bred? Red. Okay. That was very quick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Say some more. No, but I think I think it's, uh, it's something that you acquire, something that you learn. But it's, it's more, it's not so much of a, of a personal ability. It's rather something that you acquire. So, uh, everybody can be, if that, that's an expression, I don't know, it's transformative leader or something, something like that. Definitely. Clear. And, uh, are you always a transformer leader or is it a one time thing? I think you're, I am, I think you're probably always a transformative leader if, if it's on a big scale, because then when you see that, as I said, did not, the, you know, you're probably painting, painting big pictures with bright colors. But when it comes to, you know, the frame and the lightening could make the value of what, what you've made 10x, that might not be the transformative leader that might, makes that last change. So, don't be afraid of that. You know, step aside, bring people up who do that for you. And then you continue to paint these, with these bright colors and these broad brushes. So, know your own limitations. Absolutely. And don't be afraid. You know, and, and if you've got skin in the game, somebody else, you know, identified that person is going to make it 10x more valuable, let them do it. And then enjoy your, enjoy it because you've got skin in the game. So park your ego as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Um, demand for transformer CEOs, rising, lower, falling or seeing the same. I think it's, it's, it's always there because there's a lot of failure also. And you know, it's, it's transformative. In the word, I guess there's an aspiration of it becoming better. But it can also come out of something bad. It doesn't have to be something average. It can, it can come out of something really bad that you're actually building something really important for the future. So I'd say that transformative leaders are always in fashion. Always in fashion. So you think it's stable demand? Yeah. Yeah. I'm hard to say whether it's going to be increasing. Why should it? Yeah, maybe no stable. It's, yeah, it's a good bet. Okay. And then the final point is, um, what about the reward for these guys? Do they deserve a premium for the kind of, um, briefs that they take on? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, alignment with, with the, which shareholders is important. So definitely, uh, good rewards, good monetary reward rewards. But as I said, you know, at least in my industry, rich and famous, get the balance right. Uh, and famous, not only you yourself, but the stuff that you make, you know, being there's hundreds of people who created survivor, but there's, you can hardly find any of the format survivor, but you can hardly find anybody who said, you know, uh, there was a show called Tutti Frutti, which were, you know, a game show from Italy where, where, uh, women showed their tits, uh, you know, and I'm not proud of having taken that to air in Sweden back in 94. So, uh, you know, success is important. Okay. Now I was going to ask what's next for you, but you're going to be quite busy for the next couple of years by the sense of things. But what does long term look like? I don't know. I mean, we just took a, uh, uh, chair chairman of a company called HACSO that we took to stock exchange exchange in Stockholm, to Nasdaq in June, July, and we're growing more than 50 percent per year. We have a, we have an EBITDA margin of over 80 percent. It's, you know, cash rich, uh, that company is just, that's, that's just, we're not transforming that company. We just continue to make great games for people who enjoy that and, and making shit loads of money to our shareholders. And I hope that's going to carry on forever. Maybe I, I'm only going to be there for three to five years because it becomes maybe for me, with my impatience, then I, I'll move on to something else. But with, you know, for products, I'll put it on the stock exchange in two, three years and then, uh, and then I hand over to the next guy. Maybe I get to share if the shareholders wants to and then I can do that till I'm 70 plus or something. I don't plan. I don't carry a plan. I don't do it. You don't do care planning. No, Patrick, it's been an honor to have you on the show. Thank you very much. I mean, what, what an amazing journey and story you, you tell. And I love the, the, just the directness, the, the pace, the honesty, the, no frills, it's straight, straight forward, the way you deliver it as well. So thank you for making the time. Thank you. I'm great to be a friend. Nice to be here. Thank you for your time. Thank you.