ResDance Series 9: Episode 6: Light That Moves: Lighting as a Choreographic Tool with Natalie Rowland

Many thanks for joining me today and I'm going to start by asking you to share something about your experience and work in dance. So I'm currently based at the University of Chichester where I teach for the BA honors in dance and aerial arts but I've not always been in HE and I've not always been focused on dance. I have or always worked in performance, life performance but in a range of roles and I think that that is what makes my life interesting and enjoyable. So alongside working at the University I still have a practice outside of that both as a lighting designer and as I don't quite know what I call myself actually. I think that's probably the hardest thing ever. I'm going to settle with the title of Interdisciplinary Artist because I think that covers the multitude of sins. Thank you. So where you say you won't always in dance and now you find yourself working dance. I guess I'm interested in two things. One is what brought you to it and secondly within your fingers and your different pies is there like a thread between them that you would say? Yeah definitely. I think my my threads are movement and the air. What brought me to dance is a love of movement. I've been lighting for a very very long time. We're not going to put a number on it and to me light moves and so I've always kind of considered my lighting practice to be a movement practice. So it felt really natural that a lot of my lighting ended up being in dance and that was what ultimately led me to kind of focus on dance in higher education. And so that lovely sentence you said I'm going to hone in on that your lighting practice is kind of a movement practice. I'd like you to perhaps expand on that. So what do you exactly mean by that? Yeah so for me lighting is lighting isn't just a static thing. I think we tend to and I blame technology for this. We think about lighting as on or off or it's on and it's dim or it's on and it's red but there seems to be this this kind of status that's involved in lighting and and even you know when we're programming lighting we think about lighting states and we create a moment of lighting and that's always kind of jarred with me. I don't like thinking about lighting in that way. So when you're outside, when you're in nature, light is not static ever. The sun is always moving. The clouds are passing in front of it. Like it's brighter, it gets dimmer, it changes colour temperature and it's never just one thing. And so when when I was lighting very very early on, I lit a lot of musical of concerts and I would do that live. I would do that using faders. I mean we're talking we're talking back in the 90s when faders were kind of one of our main tools. And so I felt like I was more in touch with the movement of the light and I was in control of those transitions and there is a sense of being connected to that movement. That kind of gets robbed from you when you program lighting in the modern way of setting lighting states and recalling these computer programmed memories. And so yeah, when I talk about lighting as a movement practice for me, it's about trying to find ways of keeping a connection to that sense of light being a moving thing that interacts with what's in the space and what's happening on the stage. There's always a conversation happening there. There's always relationships and meetings and it's never static. So I guess that's what I mean. When you spoke so lovely there about being a movement practice, it made me think that alongside all the other choices we make in artistic practice, lighting is one of them. So it's part of that process, it's part of that liveliness that we have. And then I'm also thinking about settings where you light and not it's an afterthought, but your lighting so they're not in darkness and you have these text and you know, you're lighting states. So do you just approach it for kind of right today? I've got that hat on and I'm lighting in this way and that's okay. Or do you try when working with those in dance to kind of make others understand the nuances of it? It's really difficult. I think all of those things happen sadly. I think I'm getting more and more jaded and it's becoming more and more a case of light is just slapped on at the end, but I think a lot of that comes from the pressures in the arts right now. We're not resourced. We're just not resourced. We don't have the time. We don't have the money. And so those conversations and the luxury of time and collaboration and experimentation that I have enjoyed in the past, I'm not enjoying right now. And when you think about when that isn't happening and perhaps lighting have more of a presence, this is a really broad question about what is good lighting. I guess what I mean is what difference can lighting make perhaps to a piece? It can make an enormous difference. Essentially, if I'm using a language that is at odds with the language of the choreography, then that choreography is not going to be shared with the audience in the same way. They're not going to receive it in the same way. They might not understand it in the same way. A really simple and obvious example would be if I haven't had a conversation with the costume designer. And they've got these wonderful green costumes and I've lit it in blue. It's not going to share the fabulous colors and textures of those costumes in the same way as if I had had more time and I've lit it properly. Timmingold, I think it was said that light isn't something that we see. It's something that we see in. And that really resonates with me in terms of how much light can affect the context of what is seen, what we choose to see, what we choose to hide. It impacts mood, it impacts narrative. And while I think particularly strong choreography will always shine through, there's always going to be something that lighting can show you that perhaps you didn't see before in the studio like. And when you spoke at the beginning about being drawn to what you do because of the love of the moving body, I imagine you like for others but also in your own practice, the moving body is important but I'm interested in whether it canes depending on genre and style that you're lighting or is the essence of what you do about the body, whatever that might be. That's an interesting question. I've not really thought about it. I think there are definite shifts in how I approach things if it's a different genre but I think it's a kind of empathetic response kind of getting to that kind of kinesthetic empathy idea and the way that different styles of dance make me feel different and make me want to move in different ways. That then comes through in the lighting. I might choose to use much a much stronger language in lights, a bolder colours, bolder moves for one genre versus something else where I might focus more on shadow and shape. So yeah, I think there's definitely a relationship there but not one that I've particularly thought about a lot. So moving away from kind of lighting others and others work and moving on to your own practice and we touched upon this but you said I like being in the air and I like the air but it'd be great to share with listeners what your practice might be and the kind of work perhaps that you do and alongside that I am going to also ask about your PhD which people have dread but I'm definitely going to ask it so it's really interesting to share kind of what if you to summarise or share what your practice is what it would be. Summarising my practice. I'm a lighting designer and an area list and I am really interested in what we can create in that space above the ground. I'm particularly fascinated with knots and ideas of entanglement so I've been playing in recent years with storytelling in the air. I've been working on a series of what I call naughty stories which is a series of short, short pieces that involve aerial movement storytelling. So far those stories have all kind of focused around knots. and not tying, there is one that is kind of a complete tangent, which is one that I've made for children that's all about the sea. But generally, my work is about knots. And where do they come from? So this love kind of above the ground in the air, this thing of knots, a storytelling of A things that as a child are growing up, you were curious about or are there things that you've arrived at kind of in later years? I think a bit of both. I think my notiness kind of comes from my grandparents, learning to knit as a child creating dens in the back garden with my granddad, learning different knots from him. I think my storytelling has been with me since I was very young. I've always enjoyed writing stories for ever, shares embarrassing stories of things that I wrote for school. I believe one of my early stories is still in my primary school library. But that kind of creative writing went out the window in kind of late secondary school when everything became about exams and what are you going to do with your life? And I kind of threw that side of me away and only revisited it fairly recently. And I've been really enjoying kind of coming back to that and coming back to the ways that I was created as a child. So being up in the air is about escaping the ground. I think I'm around dance a lot and I love dance and I love moving. But I don't consider myself to be a dancer, especially not on the ground and I feel very uncomfortable moving on the ground. But I discovered when I took up aerial that I felt like I could move and be me in the air. And so that's why I've kind of escaped upwards. And does that kind of feel like a safe space being up in the air? You know, is that if you to think where do I feel content or safe, do you feel like you kind of get lost in those moments when you're there? Yeah, yeah. And I think again, it goes back to childhood. I used to climb trees. If I could run away up a tree, I would be there. And it's kind of an adult version of that, isn't it? Really? And so this idea of storytelling and creative writing, you then went on to do a really big story when you wrote your PhD. I did them and commit together. It'd be great to find out what your PhD was in and what you did for it. So my PhD started out as a run about something that I alluded to earlier, this issue of stasis in lighting, and particularly computerized lighting control and modern technologies and LED and how the technology seems to be telling us how to work with light and how to how to do things. And I just felt very, very strongly that that went against everything I enjoyed and everything that I wanted from my lighting practice. So it started out there and what it became was a discussion about how we can think about lighting in terms of movement as well as design and shape and texture. And so I proposed in that thesis the idea of a seno choreographic landscape. So joining together ideas from senography with choreography and thinking about lighting as not being purely of the senographic, but that there are aspects of it that can merge into choreography. I think it's applicable to more than just lighting. I mean, my thesis obviously focused on lighting, but I think almost any performance craft could be thought of within this this kind of landscape of seno choreography, where perhaps if you're more towards the choreographic end of the spectrum, you're thinking and dealing more with rhythm and pattern and trajectories. And if you're thinking more towards the seno graph again to the spectrum, you might be thinking more specifically about texture and color and surfaces. It was about exploring lighting as something that could be emergent and entangled and influx and not just a static thing. So as part of that, I explored that practice through a project working with a playwright called Claire Norben who writes a series of concert dramas that weave together kind of biographical stories of composers and key figures in music with the music that they wrote and that they lived around. And those plays I let them started working with Claire in 2011, but within my PhD I'm talking about pieces that I live between 2015, 2018. These pieces didn't tour to theatres. They toured to churches and manor houses and spaces that are not built for theatrical productions in a traditional sense. And so we would have to take all the lighting with us. They were logistical constraints like I would be programming without a blackout because you get daylight in these spaces and there's no way of closing the curtains, but also things like I turn up and they say, "Oh yes, we've got power, we've got two electrical sockets, but I need one of them for the T-Earn." And things like this. And it was entertaining from a logistics point of view, but I also learnt very, very quickly that I couldn't light those productions in the kind of traditional way that you might think about lighting a play. And so I kind of took some of these ideas that I was mulling around from my thesis and developed a different way of approaching things. So instead of having a set lighting design, I approached things very differently because if I had one set lighting design and I took it from church to church, it would look different every time, because the buildings were different scale, different textures, different colours, and light behaved very differently in all of those spaces. So I started using instead of set lighting cues, I would use a score, a term that I've very obviously borrowed from the dance world. And I would create lighting scores for these plays. And when I would get into the venue, I would have a set of questions, I called my attunement questions. And I would kind of look at how light behaved in that space, and how I could best create what was needed for the play with the way that that space behaved. So yeah, that was that project. The project kind of became your practice research. In a way. Yeah, very much. And it was really interesting the way those those two things kind of bounced between kind of theoretical ideas and well, what if I could think about lighting in a different way? What if I borrow these ideas and these terms from from choreography and from dance? And how might that actually help? Does it help? Does it offer a way that I can make the most of these buildings rather than them being really challenging? And so in a way, this is you speak, it's almost like that you undertook a choreographic approach to lighting in this way. Yet, your kind of referred to as a lighting designer. But in those moments, you were a kind of choreographer. Do you find those not that terms to find us, but they feel quite different, didn't they? Because your your practice in those spaces, whereas if you were choreographing, I think about the space as you would about the body, but you were thinking about it in terms of light. Yeah, you'll call a lighting designer, but it doesn't sound like you designing the space. No, responding to the space. And using my understanding of how light moves and how how light responds to different surfaces and different textures, using that experience and that understanding to then make choreographic decisions about what light is going to do. And yeah, I think my biggest problem with coming on to this podcast was putting myself in a box and, you know, who am I? What am I? There's all these labels. But actually, I don't feel like any one label really sits well with what I do. I do borrow from lots of different disciplines that I play with lots of ideas. And I find that that those spaces are the most interesting to me. I think there's a real richness in those boundaries and those crossovers and playing in an interdisciplinary way. Give me a satisfaction and a curiosity that I just don't get if I sit there and go, right, I'm going to be a lighting designer today. And so the kind of a two months you talked about, those kind of questions that guided you, is the idea they could be used by others as a tool. So from your PhD research, is that something that you have shared with others? Yeah, I think, I mean, my achievements were quite specific. to the text that I was working with. So because of the storylines and the narratives that I was working with, I was thinking about, okay, so what places in here give opportunities to reach? Where can I find confinement? What presses, what screams? So those questions were quite specific to those productions, but the idea of finding what the essence is of the performance, what other things that you're trying to portray, what are you trying to share with the audience, what experience are you trying to create? I'm thinking around those things, you can, you can devise your own questions. And so in relation to the kind of research field of which your PhD and also your wider practice sits, was this, is this approach to lighting not novel, but is it something fairly new or their other practitioners and writers working this way? So who did you kind of draw from in your research? I think it's quite a novel approach, having obviously looked at other literature that exists. I think there are designers and academics in the field who are increasingly recognising this idea of kinesthetic empathy and how it works within scenography and theatrical design. So they were definitely influencing me, but I think the resulting notion of working with achievements and scores is, I believe, fairly novel. And throughout listening to you speak, I'm thinking about your positionality, which maybe is a term used more so in research, but I'm thinking about how you situate as you said that we like to silo, which is true, but actually hearing you speak about your practice, there's no siloing it, there's a really nice mesh, perhaps like you're not, so if it kind of notting together to a point, but in terms of your position when you work, and I think it depends on what you're doing, but do you approach situations from a particular position to work out what your own boundaries are, or do you just go with the flow in the moment? I think it depends on the project, it depends on if I'm lighting dance, it depends on the choreographer, and if I know whether they are very traditional in the way they like to work, or if they are open to a little bit of play, there are certain choreographers that I know I can step into the rehearsal room and go, I've been thinking about this, could we maybe do exercise it? And then there are other choreographers who I know, they see the piece as a thing that exists, that then has light applied to it, rather than with it, and at that point I do have to kind of reel myself in a bit and not enter into the, well actually it's still with, and the second you get in that space with me and with my lights, things are going to happen that you wouldn't have seen in your head, and that's one of the really fun things I think about playing with lighting in this realm of new materialist thinking. I'm very open to, if I try something out in the theatre, and it doesn't look how I thought it was going to look, instead of going, oh that's wrong, I will go, okay that's not what I thought it was going to be, but what is it? I think one of my big arguments in my thesis was the fact that we're using LED as a direct replacement for light bulb, and it's not, LED is something else. It creates light through a different mechanism, and so let's stop sitting there telling it what it should be, and complaining that it doesn't do as good a job as a tungsten light bulb. It's not a tungsten light bulb, so can we stop asking it to be and maybe stop and look at what it is good at, and what it could be? So yeah, I think definitely over the past few years, I come to productions more with that attitude of being open to what doesn't behave, and maybe not treating it as something that's wrong, but going, okay, well what could happen here? And I think that probably comes a bit from my aerial practice as well, one of the things I play a lot with is getting into a mess and getting into a tangle, and going, okay, well what if I go this way, what if I thread through under instead of over and playing with kind of challenging the normal way, and not being afraid of the mess that happens? I'm a lot less afraid of mess than I used to be, I'm more curious about mess. Yeah, and sometimes when you go in this season, I know this, but you'll say, oh, it's quite messy and chaotic, and that's something that you like to get stuck into. But I'm interested in that is that how you approach usual life, or is like Natalie in usual life actually quite, I don't know, unmessing logical linear, and suddenly when you get into your practice, it's the opposite, or is that approach of kind of throwing yourself into it, being messy, being brave, having confidence to make mistakes, is that just you as a person? I am a bit of a control freak in certain aspects of my life. I think my colleagues would say I'm quite organised, and I like to know what is happening when and where and why. I think there are certain things that do need a structure, but I think there needs to always be the potential for questions, because otherwise everything gets really boring. I think that's probably where it comes from. I think I'm just getting old, and I'm getting bored, and so I'm asking more questions and causing more chaos just for my own amusement, really. Got a way to live. We all need to get that advice, I think. And so when I think about a new touchpoint earlier about the dance sector, and perhaps if we focus now on education and training for a second, and the shift to the sector means there is a pressure for recruitment for higher education institutions, and you know, honestly to keep dance programmes afoot and running. And over the time that I've worked in higher education, there seems to be fewer opportunities for students to learn geography lighting, there's kind of things. And so I'm interested in your thoughts about where there are now opportunities for students to learn some of the skills that you have, and where there aren't those opportunities, perhaps the impact that's going to have. That's a massive question. Have you got another three hours? When I first started, there weren't any university courses that were specifically about lighting, and now there are, or there are, at the moment. And we're in this really weird time right now, where we're kind of being told that the arts degrees have no value, and they're being apt left right and centre, and I can see this kind of full circle coming around where we end up back where I was when I first started, you know, going to university is about studying certain subjects. And not others, I learnt my craft through annoying people, and just inviting myself to places, and saying, "Hi, I'm really interested in this. Can I help? How can I get involved?" And I learnt by doing, I would have loved to have studied at university. There are some incredible courses and some incredible academics and practitioners out there who are delivering courses and modules that are just so exciting to me. But I agree there is a real trend in those modules falling to the wayside. And I think it's come out of this awful thing of efficiency. When students are learning those kind of very visual, very practical, very hands-on crafts, they need time, and that's not a luxury that we seem to have a lot of anymore. And so, whereas, perhaps once upon a time, we might let students have a play with the lighting and explore how their choreography looks in it, I'm now being asked to light 13 pieces in three evenings, and it's. Yeah, I think it's a time and a resource thing, and sadly, I think that the things that are going to fall by the wayside are these crafts that people misunderstand, they think, "Oh, it just happens. You create a piece, and then it gets lit." But that's icing, that's not part of creating. It's a very, very challenging situation, I think. But also, like you say, it's about the opportunity, so sometimes young people, and I don't spend university aid, like, younger children, but if they don't have an opportunity to see it and play with equipment, you're not going to know, are you? So, you can't just suddenly decide, "I want to be a lighting practitioner, you know, designer, you've got to. I don't know, you've got to experience it. Yeah, and I think, you know, I've noticed a trend recently where people, I don't know if it's because we have more technology in our everyday life and we're spending more and more time with screens and there's apps for this and apps for that. But where is people used to come to me and know nothing about lighting? I'm now getting people come to me and go, well, can that light just be red without an understanding of not all lights are LED and can be any color you like. I think there's an expectation of technology doing a lot of the job now. I think, you know, our exposure to technology in our daily lives makes us think that perhaps things are possible that aren't necessarily possible in a theatrical environment and with the resources that are available. So yeah, there's this kind of strange thing of people knowing too much, but also knowing too little. And it's empowering isn't it because people think that when they've watched something or seen something that they know it better than perhaps you do. You know, the whole point is you come from a wealth of embodied experience that we're able to hold that space and make those decisions. And I get you're right, it comes down to that kind of me to see if knowledge doesn't it that that technology brings us and staying this idea of technology because we touched upon it a few times. So I am maybe thinking about dance for screen or dance on camera, you know, it's been around a long time. There's lots of views about this idea of lightness of a performance when it's behind the screen. But if I think of where technology is going, we can't really shy away from it, but I'm wondering what, and this is the question, but what is the, what do you think the role of lighting will be of dance as our alliance on technology continues to increase. Yes and no, I think there's a trap that we can fall into very easily where technology helps us with some of our resource issues and things get done quicker and more efficiently and but I think there's also. There's always got to be space for play, I think the second you take playtime and collaboration and exploration away that's when lighting is going to become just clinical, I guess. Yeah, I think there's there's a lot written now about lighting and I there's kind of tropes in lighting that we can kind of pull out and we know that they're going to work and we know that if we do this, it'll make it look like that. But if we just stick within that kind of safe mode things are going to get very, very boring very, very quickly, like I don't know about you, but I'm super, super bored of lighting for TV shows just an absolute assault on the senses with all the screens and the colors and it's not interesting anymore and it's not attractive anymore and I don't think it does. Anything for the dance other than oh well we're doing something in this style or it's got this kind of theme to it so let's have this themed lighting and it just feels like things are. Plopped out of a little box a little category and it's not interesting anymore but I think that reinforces the kind of the expertise that you have because the difference with your practice is you're interested in the. Body and the people in front of you and even when you're lighting signing it's how can you get the best out of this experience for everyone involved so your purpose for being there is different. Which I think really comes across yeah I think I think my worry is that that the industry will head towards this. Super efficiency lack of resourcing and will lose will lose that opportunity to explore what is really possible and keeping this this connection between the different production aspects the second things like lighting or costume become subservient to the choreography rather than a part of the choreography I fear that you're on really risky ground there. That's that's when we start to lose things. And so for you. What are the next avenues that you're exploring in your practice so you mentioned the things lots of things that you're interested in but do you have a next project do what's the next thing that you might be curious about. At the moment I kind of really throw myself into my my aerial practice but I have really noticed in this last year that I have abandoned my lighting I think part of that is because I finished the PhD and I wanted to run for the hills. But I think you know in this next coming year perhaps it's time to to go back to lighting and start to start to begin to understand what it is for me now I've I've explored this. I've seen a choreographic landscape I've got a better idea of of why light is important to me I've been thinking a lot more about natural light a light outside of the studio and I would kind of like to play with that I don't know how I think natural light is something that I'm curious about at the moment. When we began speaking we said it a few times you said oh I do this because I don't see myself as dancer which is interesting isn't it because we use these times that we artist practitioner practitioner researcher, Crawford, you know dancer but I actually would see you as a dancer as a Crawford as a practitioner but maybe it's. Because you found your way with it in a kind of quite organic route and you haven't done the kind of a training of dance and then I'm like this. I think it's the training thing it's the chair or and the fact that I'm surrounded by dancers and choreographers every day who have done that route and who have earned that name and I yeah I feel like perhaps I haven't earned that in in the same way but yeah I know I know for a fact that what I do would be nothing without moving. And so in terms of your research you talked about some ideas there but I know you have presented at some conferences and you've had a paper published and various things and how is it documenting your practice so I know the PhD has a particular framework around it but when you move outside of that and you start writing independently. Are you someone who documents their practice do you do you record you reflect you write down ideas is that something that's part of it for you. Definitely because things will happen things are popping to my head and if I don't write them down I will never be able to dig into them so I have copious amounts of notebooks I also film things a lot on my phone take lots of pictures my camera roll if you removed all the cat photos. It's mainly light it's mainly you know light on a spider's web or a tree being a particular color at sunset and so I kind of document in in that kind of way and kind of scrapbook between my notebooks and my my photos I've started creating a specific notebook for documenting ideas and things that have cropped up around my brain. I've dropped up around natural light my thinking is that there's a lot there's a lot of books out there that are textbooks of how to do lighting or talking about the logistics of lighting and there's not a lot that is written I'm going to regret saying this in a more poetic kind of way some something that's more connected to the emotional and the experiential aspects of light. So I'm kind of interested in in developing some writing around that so that's something that I'm playing with in terms of documenting at the moment and when you take a moment to to really notice light every day. You you notice things that they they would have had an effect on you anyway but actually giving a voice to them and documenting them in writing or in an image yeah I think it's an important part of my practice that I I create those kind of solid tangible moments. I like something we comment on all time a bit like the weather temperature we comment we either all the time about it being bright or being dark or how it makes you feel and maybe we take lights for granted because it's something we're used to. I think you know a lot of the activity you do away from your practice with it's your kind of outdoor swimming or you're running or walking you do immerse yourself in opportunities for to experience natural light yeah very much so and I just. The other morning I was in the outdoor pool at our end and. swimming in one direction, there's gray clouds, I mean the sun had literally just come up so it's pretty dark and really miserable and then I turn around to come back the other way and the light of the sun was just peeking through the clouds and the way it danced across the top of the water was just phenomenal and it was creating these wonderful patterns on the bottom of the pool and that's just a 180 degree turn of my head to go from 'uh' to 'why' and so in a sense when you're making work, lighting work, you want that similar reaction in a sense isn't it, if that audience is thinking 'wow' or you know they've seen the piece in a different way? Yeah I definitely draw on on things that I've experienced and I think that that's a really useful shared experience language that I can use to talk to choreographers and dancers about lighting rather than blinding them with science, yeah I think sometimes it can be difficult to explain technology but if you can do it in a way that you're talking about, well I want it to feel like this, those kind of really visceral experiences, I think they're very useful. Well there's a book for POTAL in there, possibly, yeah that would be really interesting, really lovely, something to engage with, definitely. So I realised through talking you've mentioned a few times being kind of having a love for aerial practice and I know it's also something that you deliver and teach at the University of Chichester and elsewhere, so I wondered if you could share a bit about what do we mean when we say aerial practice and perhaps the programme has offered? So I think what's special about the aerial offering here at the University of Chichester is that it's not a circus programme where we're not trying to create circus performers because there are other places that do that really really well. What we do really well at Chichester is choreography and for me my aerial practice is a way of moving and a language that I can use to tell stories with, I can think about problems through aerial and so the course here is quite choreographic focused with the idea that aerial is another language, another movement language that we can use. So I think that's what sets that course apart as being quite unique. It's very much taught in combination with choreography and contemporary dance technique. I think aerial has got a lot to offer in terms of enabling audiences to see things in a different way and it comes back to this whole interdisciplinary thing that I've been hopping on about this whole time. You know, one box is boring, let's get all the boxes out, let's spill the contents out across the studio floor and see what happens. Let's use all the things and think with all the things and then we can create something that's really interesting and unique to you. We have some fantastic students come through the doors here and I always get so excited when they find a way that articulates them as a movement practitioner, as an artist. So yeah, I think the Dance and Aerial Arts program here is a really exciting way of offering another box of toys to spill out across the studio. Perfect, thank you. So we're going to move on to our final question now of our episode together, which is where I'm going to ask you perhaps to share a reflection or a takeaway message for listeners. Well, I think it's got to be, you know, embrace chaos, get all of your toys out of the toy box and play with all of them at the same time. Perfect, thank you. I've loved speaking with you today. We've known it for a long time, but I've never had this conversation and I think what really comes across is just that kind of love of playing and being curious and having the confidence to do so, but also the different ways in which you find to kind of story tell and tell your story. So many thanks for your time today. Thank you.