REPLAY: RESHMA SAUJANI: Teaching Our Girls to Be Brave, Not Perfect

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Grab your friends and head to the tabby tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products, and discover custom playlists on Spotify, but just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with coach. Learn more at coach.com. - This is an episode from The Archives. I wanted to reiterate for those who are new subscribers to that total mom sense, and for those of you who have heard it before, I'm sure you'll glean new insights from our conversation. Listen in. - Girls of Code is a more nonprofit. We host free summer immersion programs that we host in technology companies. 1700 girls will go to a Facebook or an AT&T, a black rock, a Disney and the Learn How Code, with the hopes that they go on to make sure a minor in computer science. You know, when we started, probably less than 18% of CS majors in Harvard were nine to four women, and today that number is almost reaching to 30%. And in many colleges it is, right? So if you meet girls where they're at, and if you really say, you know, listen, I am going to teach coding in a way that girls are gonna get excited about it, and I'm gonna like not take my foot off the pedal, what is possible? - There is nohood like parenthood. Hi, I'm Keneca Chadagaptha. I'm a former CNN journalist, Mom of Three, including twins, and host of that total mom sense, the podcast. Now, if I had a dollar every time I heard G, you have your hands full. On my show, I interview change makers on their life lessons, legacy, and superpower of intuition, which I call our mom sense and dad sense. I've had the privilege of working with mom 2.0, March of Dimes, and the White House, and I've had some pretty amazing parents on my show. Hey, what's up, I'm Kelly Rowland. Hi, this is Chelsea Clinton. It's me, Bobby Brown. Can't wait to share my story. That's Total Mom Sense is a production of the Evergreen Podcast Network. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and on YouTube so you never miss an episode. To join my tribe, visit that's TotalMomSense.com and follow me on Instagram @KenecaChadagaptha. Now, let's dive in to today's episode. In 2019, women earn 79 cents for every dollar a man makes. Though we can attribute the gender pay gap to several factors, including occupational segregation, bias against working mothers, and circumstances like racial bias, disability, and access to education, there's no denying the numbers, and that we still have a lot of work to create an even playing field. On today's episode, I am thrilled to have a woman and mother who has been an advocate for closing the gender gap throughout her career. Rishma Sojani is the founder and CEO of Girls Who Code, the International Nonprofit Organization, working to close the gender gap in tech and change the image of what a computer programmer looks like and does. It has reached 185,000 girls in 50 states, Canada, and the UK. In 2019, Girls Who Code was awarded most innovative nonprofit by Fast Company. Rishma is the author of the International Best Seller, Brave Not Perfect, and has a podcast with the same name. And the New York Times best seller, Girls Who Code, learned to code and changed the world. Rishma's TED Talk, Teach Girls Bravery, Not Perfection, has more than four million views, and has sparked a worldwide conversation about how we're raising our girls. She began her career as an attorney and activist. In 2010, she surged onto the political scene as the first Indian American woman to run for US Congress. During the race, she visited local schools and saw the gender gap in computing classes firsthand, which led her to start Girls Who Code. She is a graduate of the University of Illinois, Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, and Yale Law. Her work on behalf of young women has earned her broad recognition on lists, including Fortune World's greatest leaders, Fortune 40 under 40, Wall Street Journal's magazine, Innovator of the Year, Forbes' most powerful woman, changing the world, and Fast Company's 100 most creative people, among others. She lives in New York City with her husband, Nahal, their son, Sean, and their Bulldog Stanley. Rishma, it is an absolute honor to have you in that total mom sense today. I'm so excited to be here. So I want to just share the story of how I met you for the first time. It was back in 2013, and you were the keynote speaker at the AIF, which stands for American Indian Foundation Gala. And at the time, you were the front runner as New York's next public advocate. You were the first Indian American to run for Congress prior to that. And I still remember how Florida was listening to your story and the hot spot that you have and seeing that live was such a force. So I just wanted to share that with you. You have done all of us Indians, women, individuals, proud. Thank you so much. So I believe that we don't know where we're going until we assess and look back at where we've been. So I want to backtrack you through your childhood. And let's start with your parents. They're of Gujarati descent and lived in Uganda prior to being expelled by dictator Edie Amin in the '70s. Can you tell us that whole story? Sure. So two generations of my family was born in Africa. So my parents-- I mean, my great grandparents were originally brought over to build the railroads from Kampala to Mambafo. And so yes, my parents speak fluent Swahili, and were born there. And so were my grandparents. Basically, in the 1970s, this dictator Edie Amin came to power. And for sure, a lot of people have seen Mississippi Masala or what was at the last King of Scotland. And this really crazy guy, Edie Amin, just had a dream that he should expel all of the Indians from the country. And he kind of got on television one day and said, hey, you've got 30 days to leave the country. And my parents were both trained engineers. They had actually gone to engineering school in India and come back to Africa. And so my dad had six brothers and sisters. My mother had eight. So there's a huge, huge family in Africa. Everybody was scrambling for refugee status. And my parents were fortunate to be two of 1,000 refugees, who got saddest to come to the United States. And that's really how we ended up here. How they ended up here. Wow. And can you tell us about your childhood? Where do they immigrate to? And where'd you go up? Yeah, so they ended up going to Chicago, Illinois. I was born in Burwin, Illinois, which is right outside of the city. In the beginning, when they came there, my father worked as a machinist and a plant, and my mother sold cosmetics. And till they got jobs as engineers. And I remember my dad would send his resume out and he would get no responses. And finally, a recruiter said to him, maybe you should change your name from Muku and to Mike. And that's how my dad became Mike. I don't know what your parent-- Did your dad have any American name? Yeah. My in-laws did that. My father-in-laws name is Ramesh, but he's Bob. Yeah. So yeah, I went from Ramesh to Robert to Bob. So yeah, I experienced that too. It's funny, and it's funny as we're talking about it now, like how typical that was then. But now we would never think, right, of changing my name from racial to racial, right? Even though you still-- every time I go to Starbucks, people would be what? How do I say-- it would be much more quote-convenient to be racial, but it's not. But back then, it was really like custom. And I think part of that identity change, name change, then came with so much more than changing their name. It was really like my dad used to go to toast masters every week and really get rid of that accent, right? Like I barely can speak with Dorothy. And so I think that there was a lot of assimilation. I think I grew up very much with my family trying to assimilate us into a culture that was very white. So do you have siblings? I have an older sister named Keshema. Of course, very good drafty, Keshema freshmen. Right, yeah. That's right, yeah. I kind of got one again, so yeah. Right, totally no. Did you feel like you noticed the disparities between young Indian boys and girls early on, especially having just you and your older sister? It's a great question. I mean, I feel like maybe I attributed to our culture, right? First of all, I didn't have a boy in the house. And my father didn't treat me any differently because I was a girl, meaning he always I encouraged me to excel and to do well. Like I was like kept in my, you know, I was in my debate club and my UN club and it was very argumentative and I was very feisty and I used to walk around with this like, you know, Chicago like Cubs had, you know, and I was a little bit of a tomboy, right? He never discouraged. My parents never really discouraged that. And so I very much in many ways, I feel like grew up with a feminist dad. Where I did see it play out was I think you've got a huge circle of other Indian families that they were friends with. And I think that the boys, I don't know, maybe in like, you know, didn't have to clear off the table or, you know, like things like that. Like I would see some inklings of like us being treated differently. But not really. I don't feel like I really, really, really, you know, started thinking about that until I was in college and law school. OK. One thing that you had shared in one of your talks was that your dad used to read you the biographies of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi and Eleanor Roosevelt and really kind of gave you almost like permission that you can change the world. Readers died just used to have a edition of like these little books that were about the stories of these just, you know, incredible change makers. And my father would always sit man is slapping and he would read to them and it really influenced me. I think to be the person that I am today, like I was always, I don't know, attracted to connected by people that were using their life in the service of others. And I think their refugee story, their struggle, you know, a parents came to this country and they're 20. They didn't have any friends, any family. I don't know if you ever look back and like, you're like, wow, like, you didn't speak the language, right? They didn't have anything and I was very, I think, definitely by the time I was 12 and 13, you know, very moved by their struggle as refugees. And about the fact that public service is so important and fighting for your rights and justice is so important. - That's so powerful. On your TED talk, you decided to open with how running for Congress was the bravest. And as naysayers may say, the stupidest thing you've ever done. - You were the underdog in the 2010 Democratic primary in New York's 14th congressional district. And you were running against a incumbent that had been there since 1992. You know, you were backed by the New York Daily News covered in Wall Street Journal, CNBC. But in the end, you earned 19% of the votes. And this quote really, really struck me. You said the same papers that said I was a rising political star said I wasted $1.3 million on 6,321 votes. You do the math. I mean, I just found that to be so profound because firstly, it's a life lesson that I think we all can learn. In your case, you had to learn from this failure in the public eye. Instead of feeling defeated, you choose to highlight this. You opened your TED talk with this, your book with this. You know, there's no humble brag from you. You keep it real. So many of us appreciate that. Why? - I think when I was growing up, I admired so many women. And I would read their stories and be like, oh, my God, I could never do that. 'Cause I think that's what you did back then. It's when I was listening to a podcast that Hillary did or an interview that she did with Howard Stern. She was talking about this. And you know, for a lot of women, you couldn't show any type of mistake or flaw, right? You had to make it seem like you were perfect and it was easy and you were just going with it. And I think what happens then, in my judges, that then we saw that like, oh, I could never do that why the bother. Like we almost started giving up before we even try. And I think, so I've chosen, you know, in my leadership to basically show the mess behind the scenes and show like the truth and the honesty and that it's tough and that there's bumps in the roads and there's a lot of struggle because that is the truth. And I think when we tell women the truth, I think they're more likely to take risks into try things, into fail, into not give up before they try. - Yes, absolutely, do you feel that over the years, you've become kind of unfazed by rejection and failure? - Oh no, no, it still hurts. I think that like my hack on it is that I recover faster, right? In some ways, I still think because we live in a success-driven society, I think we are conditioned to actually feel failure more than we feel success, right? - Do you remember, so like if you're, if something you're really working on happens, you're like, oh, that's amazing. And then you're on to the next thing. - On to the next thing. - Yes, on to it. Within like a second, but when something doesn't work out, you could sit for a month thinking about it, replaying it, feeling sad about it, right? - I think about that a lot, like why is that? So I think that that's why it's so important to not let yourself sit in that failure for too long, because I think we fear that it will break us, but that doesn't mean that it isn't hurt. - Maybe as I'm getting older, I see a lot of women my age now, and they didn't take the risk, and they didn't leave the job they hated, or they didn't walk out of the relationship they didn't want, or like they didn't have a baby by themselves. And they're full of a lot of regret and envy. And I think it's so much better to live a life where you least you tried, than to like a water show to kuda. - Yeah, absolutely. What are your thoughts on Senator Kamala Harris and her decision to bow out of the upcoming presidential election? - Ooh, I just heard, and I wrote enough about that, on Medium I, I think she is such an example of Brave Not Perfect, and the fact that failure and the mess behind the scenes has such greater consequences for women than it does for men. You know, when she made that decision, look, and I haven't endorsed anybody, but I was really heartbroken. I just think that we've seen gender play out in this presidential cycle, in this primary, in ways that are just depressing. And, you know, it was just kind of this relentless criticism and critique of her, her family, her campaign, her management. And it just seems like the guys just don't have that same scrutiny, and that same way. You know, I don't know what the lesson is in terms of like what she could have done differently. I don't know if there is anything that she could have done differently. I think it goes back to given like 150 speeches this year. And the same question that always gets asked to me that I honestly have the hardest time fighting and answer to is like, you know, is there a higher cost? I mean, the answer is yes. Like there is a higher cost of failure for women and women of color than there is for men, but that now what, what do you do with that? Right, right, it's so true. So it was your work in the political Lorena and in public service that led you to launch girls who code. Tell us about that aha moment you had. You know, I run for office and as part of the experience, you end up visiting schools. I go into robotics, classes, and computer labs, and I don't see any girls in these classes. And it surprised me, see, I wasn't a CS major, right? So I wasn't versed in the gender divide and technology. Something I'm kind of like in my mind, like, oh, that's weird, right? What is that about? And you know, after I lose, it's clear to me that like, I'm not going back to the private sector that I haven't, I haven't lost like, I was, my soul was right, like I wanted to serve. And I kind of sat there post failure and said, all right, what are all the things that I saw that I can make a difference on? And I kept thinking about those classrooms. And so I started digging into women in technology and learned, right, that less than, you know, 18% of women in colleges were majoring in CS, even though 50% of the labor force was female, and that everyday technology was changing the way that we live and work, that it seemed like there are all these jobs that were open in this field. There were all these women that we were more reliant on to like put food on the table. But yet, year by year by year, there's enormous decline of us going into this industry. You know, I really approached the problem for two years, like a lawyer and wrote a business plan or a white paper and said, what's the problem, what are solutions, what are people to wait, what could we do? And realized that there wasn't actually a lot of intervention that was happening, and that maybe the way that I could help solve this problem was by building that pipeline of talent and teaching young girls in high school, how to code, and really changing their mind or culture of what a computer scientist looks like. So girls who could have started off like, after two years of research as an idea, I remember I thought, you know what, let me just try this. Like, I hand-hicked 20 girls. I brought a friend's conference room. I had a friend help me design the curriculum, and we taught 20 girls to code, and after that summer is when I was like, oh, this is something. Like, I want to build something about this. But look, I was not a coder. I wasn't a nonprofit leader. Like, I was none of the things that would ultimately lead to becoming girls to code. Like, I joke, like if I had applied to be the executive director of girls to code in 2012, like, I wouldn't have gotten the job. Like, I had like zero qualifications to do it. But you noticed the gap, and I think that that's, you know, what you were meant to spearhead, and it's great that you've galvanized a team of professionals to lead girls who code, right? So how many people are on your team, and how many women strong are you? I know, we just had our holiday party yesterday, which is like my husband afterwards was like, oh, so I mean, it's just wild to think of how much we've grown. You know, we have almost 100 people full time, thousands of people part time. You know, we've tried 185,000 girls. We're in 50 states, four countries, and growing. And we're on our way to closing the pipeline of women and technology by 2027. So it's kind of been extraordinary what we've been able to do. Listen, like so many of us talk ourselves out of our best ideas. Like, I often think of how many movements, and how many ideas, and how many cures, and, you know, how many products, like I haven't been created because we thought we weren't ready or smart enough. I feel blessed every day that like, I and people believed in me, and I didn't talk myself out of it, and I had lost that race. had built my bravery muscle. That's like I didn't talk myself out of doing something that on paper I was so unqualified to do. Yes. So with some of the success stories with girls who code could you kind of share some of them? I know there's many. Girls who code is a more non-profit. 1700 girls will go to a Facebook course or AT&T or a black rock or a Disney and the learn how to code with the hopes that they go on to mature, minor, and computer science. You know when we started probably less than 18% of CS majors in Harvard were 9th or women and today that number is almost reaching to 30%. And in many colleges that is right. So if you meet girls where they're at and if you really say you know listen I am going to teach coding in a way that girls are going to get excited about it and I'm going to like not take my foot off the pedal. What is possible? Yes. Absolutely. A few that I had run up on were the tampon run game. Yes. Which is so badass. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And then there were some girls, a girl whose father had cancer and so she's using her coding skills right? Yeah. Well like our theory is that girls are change makers. And so what we do in our clubs that are summer programs is say at the end of it say okay now that you've learned how to code if you could build one thing what would you build and what's so powerful is every year that we learn what's on the minds of 13 to 17 year old girls. So in 2013 one of my one of my favorite projects that came out of that was tampon run because so Andy said listen a lot they were thinking about the menstruation tab who backed them. And it's so powerful to see now in 2019 how much period equity is in the conversation that they were thinking about as kids five years ago even climate change was something that I was hearing from kids all the time in 14 and 15 and now you're seeing kind of girls like Greta. So they're often such a great bell leather on like what's the crisis? What's the thing on the minds of young people and what do they want to build and innovate? So again in the over the past years a lot of the conversation has been around mental health. And so yes we've seen games called tampon run. We've seen games to help activists on Black Lives Matter. We've seen micro trips being created on for gun reform to put in a gun when it goes off in an area like a school. We're seeing apps being created by Syrian refugees to help Americans get to polls. And we're basically seeing so many different issues. This generation of girls are their leaders and their change makers and they are constantly thinking about how to make the world a better place. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that as adults we failed them. Yes. Yeah that I mean that traces back to the baby booming generation kind of what we're left with. But yeah it's amazing to see how tenacious they are to take matters into their own hands and learn whatever they need to to change the world. How do girls sign up for girls who code? What's the criteria? Our programs are free. Half the girls we teach are under the poverty line. Half the girls we teach are Black and Latina. You just sign up. Go to our website see if we have a club in your area. If you're rising junior senior in high school sign up for girls who code summer program. Okay wow that's great. Now I want to talk about your book Brave Not Perfect which is a breath of fresh air. Why did you write it? You know I have been working on issues. I feel like my whole life that affect women and girls and activism and fighting against racism sexism and I felt like knocking really is changed. And I really wanted to understand why. You know I saw in my classes that so many girls were coming to our program and they had never coded before. And when they were learning they were afraid to show the mistakes in their code and ask help. So like it's on this idea of perfection or bust. They weren't going to raise their hand and say hey I wrote this line of code. I know it's not there's a semicolon missing here or there. Will you show me how to do it? It's almost like they rather show nothing at all. I gave a Ted talk about this. This idea that girls are raised to be perfect and boys are raised to be brave. Five million people watch it. And I'm inundated with women and men. Women saying I do this too. Girls saying I do this too. Men think my daughter does this too. And I was like wow maybe there's something here and I guess I got to write a book about it. I spent two years writing Brave Not Perfect. I put it out in the world last February. It's an international bestseller. I have this perpetually never ending book tour. And it's really kind of spark to move in our country and the world about bravery and how bravery can lead to joy and how unlearning perfection can actually help solve or help shift leadership in our country and in the world. Yes and it's just so relatable. I felt like you were speaking to me because we've all been been that girl or we've had those women who want us to be prim and proper and don't get dirty and watch out you're going to fall. And with the boys they're you know like you say they run to the top of the jungle gym and they just free fall. And it's totally fine. You know no one's running after them. I think that we need to start young where we're not trying to keep our girls so coddled and left to be fragile because we want both our girls and boys to be able to take risks in the long run. So we do have to kind of start start young. Do you think that we're predisposed to be this way because of evolution? You know men were hunters and women were building bonds and is that what it traces back to? And then slowly that's kind of become a norm in society. Yeah I mean I think it's more about socialization right? I think it's just like we are I don't think it's you know talking about this in my book. I don't think it's genetic right? That like men were the hunters and they were just like protecting women. I think it's just it's how we have year after year to year socialize ourselves and to behave and then I do think it's second nature you know a friend of mine had a baby and she was like walking you know she's teaching her baby how to how her baby was learning how to walk and she was walking behind her and she was like be careful honey be careful honey be careful honey and she's like I heard your voice my head and I was like go baby go baby but it's just second nature right? Like we cuddle our girls we straighten their bows we fix our dresses we tell them not to get dirty we don't want them to get physically hurt but like you know with our boys like I see this every day I have a four and a half year old son and my my husband is constantly flipping him in the air and throwing him in the ground and I wonder if nahal and I say if not if we had a daughter whether he would play a rock you know me and like like the way that he does and I don't think he would it's a feminist first for sure he's a feminist yes it's totally a conscious decision and so I think part of it is just what I've been trying to do is get people to be aware even little things right like you know when something was broken I realize or like how by the time I was an adult how uncomfortable I felt when something was broken we're doing something physical with my hands whether it was putting a painting up in the wall or fixing the toilet or changing it's tire and I realize it was because even though again I was raised by a feminist dad I really wasn't taught to use my hands and so I tell parents today like if the toilet's broken grab your daughter to go like let her tinker and to take things apart and if we're not doing that as parents or doing that as educators you know there's just not a lot of opportunity because even if you go into for example the Lego store which my son loves there's so much in that store for him right Star Wars toys or superheroes there's Avengers there's the set and then and it's like there's a little aisle for girls for roses Lego set or like a supermarket so like how can we teach our girls to encourage to take things apart when we can't meet them where they are and we're not even thinking about building things for them right right it's so true um we definitely have to within our own families change these gender norms and and stereotypes that exist in my case I have three kids of boy girl twins who are two and a one-year-old son you know my husband and I really have to make a conscious decision that we you know treat all of them equally so like you said yeah your husband now like will throw your son up in the air same with Sunil he'll do that but you'll do that with all three and he'll wrestle with all three because we don't want Sahana to feel left out and she shouldn't you know and and it's amazing she doesn't play with dolls she loves engineering toys she plays with cars just like wow her twin brother yeah and she's like you know I want a pink car I want a purple car but she wants a car you know and it's it's really cool to see that um you know I grew up in a household where it was me and my sister and we we did like the playing tea party and dolls and my daughter is like a little into that but she's mostly into the stuff that her brothers are into um and she just puts her fun spin on it it's it's really amazing I mean how much if you actually and and the thing is is you're not even pushing your views on them I think you're just writing them do what they want like my son like we have like it like he loves Elsa and frozen and every boy do this little dance party yeah you know but he's like a boy boy right and he loves his rumors and like you know or like when he's picking out super heroes who pick out one wonder woman and one captain america and so like and yes I have like constantly said like well what it might not the girl or why it was much this or like you know and so I'm putting it in his world but I'm not forcing it on him and so and I realize that like the society though is structured to put them into gender constructs right what what I think we need just parents is like let them be open to everything exactly and on the flip side we have to be mindful of allowing our boys if they want to cry or our gentler, that that's okay. We don't have to expect them to man up, quote unquote, you know? Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, my son is so emo. I mean, he is so kind and we went to go see Lion King, the new one. He walked falling when like, you know, dad died, right? Right. And we had to leave. Like, he's like, you know, the only right it is that he could handle is like small world. So he's like, really? And, um, you know, again, I think everyone's nature is the tough at him up and making it strong. And I'm like, no, like, let him be like that. He wears his heart and his sleeve. And like, to me, I rather have a kid that's kind and pure in that sense, right? And so, but you're right, you have to be intentional about even with our boys allowing them to be vulnerable and emotional. Yes, absolutely. What was your motherhood journey like? Oh my god. You know, I had a really tough time. I had, um, recurrent miscarriages. And I got, I used to get pregnant very easily. And then I would lose the baby, uh, around, you know, between eight to 12 weeks. And I finally figured out that I had this condition called APS. So I first of all got pregnant. My body would, would it, would attack the fetus? So I spent most of my, I feel like most of my 30, most of my 30s and my half my 40s desperately wanting to be a mother. And it just alluding, you know, in the only way. So when I finally became one, which my son Sean, it was just, it was amazing. But then really freaking complicated because as much as I work so hard to get him, there were moments where I just couldn't wait to get away from him, right? And just like, be alone and have breakfast and read the New York Times. And like, and so it's like, it is one of the most kind of complicated relationships that I'll ever have. And I have a crazy connection with my son. But I also, I'm on a plane twice a week and I travel a lot. And I'm trying to change the world. And I, you know, I'm trying to make a difference. And so, but I'm always resolving or trying to resolve this enormous amount of guilt that I have. And just this enormous amount of, that I miss my baby, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I totally feel you. You're preaching to the choir. Such a challenging, yet joyous, kind of flip-flopping between both. When you're a first-time mom, it can be really exhausting. It is. I also just think because we're not allowed to say, like we are supposed to pretend that like, we want to be with them all the time and that we, you know, that they're not annoying to be frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. It's also this veneer. And I think it just, again, a lot of inauthenticity around pregnancy and how, how to get pregnant, how easy this is to be pregnant, who, and this idea of fertility privilege is something we've just started really talking about. And I think it's the same thing around motherhood. Like we're expected to be martyrs. I remember the amount of times I've gotten yelled at, having, you know, when Sean was little and having a meal with him, you know, in Chelsea at a restaurant. And if he was loud or screaming or whatever. And people would look at me as if like, I am not allowed to have a dinner. You and me and like, I should go hide him in it in like, in a room that's somewhere. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey. No, it's so, it's so true. And then, you know, if a dad's on baby duty, he gets lauded for that, you know, it's, oh, my God. I always, he's my, we're out with like another couple of other kids. The dads are the first ones like, let's check a selfie together, right? It's like they want to prove, you know, that they're dads. Yeah. Yeah. And like, okay, you know, yeah, it's like, let's just get food in their belly and get, yeah. Exactly. It's so true. On your Instagram, you recently shared a picture that your son Sean was holding. It was a sonogram photo. Yeah. You're having a baby in February. So if you want to share a story behind that. Yeah. So, you know, after all of my, um, fertility challenges, I ended up having my son, uh, naturally. And it was a cocktail of low the nox and baby aspirin and bed rest and getting him. I mean, it's like our miracle baby. Born with a cord around his neck, my placenta was breaking in half all of it. Oh my goodness. But I thought, you know, when I was ready to have my son, I had him at 39. And so I just need a break for a year after I had him. But then I was like, okay, I really wanted to have two kids. And I always just saw, I don't just always felt like there was a soul that was out there waiting for me. Yeah. I was like, but I was like, okay, well, this is going to be easier because we went through all that. And the second time was even harder, more miscarriages, more, you know, more hospitals, more doctors, more pain, more trauma. But I was resilient. I was having this kid. And, you know, we got to the point where my doctor was like, you can't get pregnant anymore. But you can't keep getting pregnant and miscarrying and getting a deance to your, you know, like you're going to have to think about other ways. And she kind of started talking about surrogacy. You know, it's not something I knew anybody had done. They're, you know, besides like Kim Kardashian, like, and you know, we started exploring it. But what was happening still at that same time as I wasn't even getting any healthy embryos. Well, I made the decision to do it. I suddenly, miraculously got some healthy embryos. Wow. And so we're having, yeah, it's Christmas. So we are having a baby with my amazing surrogate amber. That's due in January. And it's been this amazing journey. And my son, Sean, could not be more excited than he's having a brother. Oh my goodness. It's so exciting. Wow. 2020 is going to be your year. Yeah. Well, one of the things that I missed about pregnancy was it gave me excuse to slow down a little bit. And so it's been this kind of interesting experience. I'm having a surrogate because I'm almost having, but I'm very, so I'm so excited when the baby comes just to be able to to bond with him and get to know him. And of all these months, I feel like I've been starting having him, you know, Sean, it was like, I think so much of our intensity was that like carrying him, I felt like he was on this journey with me and I really knew him, you know, you're definitely going to be raising them to be feminists. How are you going to teach them to be that way without the sister in the picture? No. So what? Like, really thought I was going to have just daughters and then thought I would have boys, but I feel like it's like, you know, God gives you what you deserve. And part of I think in this conversation around feminism and girls is about like, what's the goal of male allies and what's the role of our sons? And how do we raise them to be ones that are like lifting women up? And, you know, Sean is, in many ways, the example of that, like he is constantly around women leaders. There's nothing he likes more than coming to girls who code. I bring him to my speeches and he just sit there and I swear he like listens and understands what I'm talking about in terms of equity and gender. And, you know, it's funny, it's like when people come up to me they say, thank you so much for what you're doing for my daughter. I kind of like being not just for your daughter. It's for my son too. You know, and I think it's changing our mindset that this isn't something just for our girls. Girls who code is not just for girls. It's for our world. It's for you. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm getting choked up. One thing that I talked to my husband about often is the tagline or buzzwords or #thefuturesfemale. And I personally can't back it because I have boygirl twins. And how could I tell my son, Krish, that it's Suhana's time? Like you already had your time. What is your take on it? I feel like I'm more egalitarian. The future is future for me is equal. You know, I don't think that, you know, it's right. It's, I mean, what do you want to flip it around and have them on 79 cents a dollar? No, you know. But yeah, how do you feel about that? Oh, I see. I'm going to disagree with you because I feel like I'll give you an example. I went to school the other day and a parent gets to come in and read the book. And I brought in wacky Wednesday. And you know, wacky Wednesday, like you have to like point out the nine wacky things, eight wacky things, the ten wacky things. And so I'm sitting there in his preschool class. And like the boys are literally at that age just rushing me, right? You be like, I know. I see it. It's right here. They are front and center. And the girls are kind of in the back apprehensive, not taking up the same amount of space. Every day my son tells me how smart he is, how he knows everything. And I'm like literally like the world is set up to support you until you lift you up. And you're going to be just fine. And so I do feel like the energy, the fight still needs to happen for our girls. Because they I don't think they start off in the same place. That's true. That's true. Yeah. We definitely were. And my son's a brown boy. Yeah. And this is what people used to say to me, like when you have sons, you actually were, you know, it's like you almost feel less stressed. And now I know what they mean. Yeah. It's true. You're going to have to fight for everything for your daughter. Yeah. Like I, you know, I mean, it was like a daughter to me. And I I see it, you know, and of course, I have a 25,000 girls, my mother and back back. And they're struggles. And they're they're it's just I don't know. It's harder for them. I think the thing is as we want to get to a world where the future is the future. Right. But we're in the moment where I think that we have to fight for parity. And I think that the shift on the conversation is we need meant to fight alongside with because that world would be better for them too. And it is hurting them too. So if you were to give my listeners some tips on a path to being brave that they can implement right now, what would those tips be? Okay. So I think the first is you You can't be brave if you're tired. And every woman I know is exhausted. And so. get rested and part of being rested I've learned as a mom is like doing something for yourself and doing something so for me it was going to the gym like when I went and worked out I was just happier healthier better but I realized I go into the gym didn't mean waking up at 5 in the morning before the dog before the baby going to that waking up at 7.30 which was when the baby was getting up and the dog wanted to go out and it was at a time that was the most inconvenient for my the family but the most convenient for me so pick some to yourself that it's not in time that it's inconvenient for everyone else because then you will learn how to prioritize you. Second thing is is practice imperfection so I think that we do everything 120 but we don't get the gains for doing it at 120 and that if we did things at 80% or 85% we actually would be just fine and there are so many things that we do whether it is bringing freshly baked cookies to our kids birthday party sending an email with 100 emojis and 9 explanation points like practice and so what I say and I said your listeners like send an email with a typo on it that's semi consequential to somebody and what you're going to learn is that like it's going to be just fine and there are a lot of things that you do or raise your hand without perfecting the question in your head. You know I mean like let's say no to something to a friend who wants you to like walk her dog or and don't worry about whether she's not going to like you and so practice imperfection in your life and you'll realize that like you're gonna have more time and there's a lot of things that you're doing perfectly that you don't need to and it's causing stress and anxiety. So true when did you trust your mom sense? I think I started trusting my mom sense when I was struggling with fertility. I know this sounds crazy but there's so many times where people just told me to give up and let it go and I just felt like there was this soul that was waiting for me. Wow and yeah I can't wait for the world to meet him. Let's not forget our quote of the day. Is there a quote that you live by? The mantra that I live by right now obviously is is is breaking out perfect because I think it's so important to like every time I know that I that voice in their head that's where I can't do something I'm not good enough for them that's more enough I just like breaking out perfect. Well there's so many moms who tell me like their daughter looked up today and it's gonna be a breaking out perfect day and like that's like their mantra. That's so cool. It's now time for mom hall when we share products we love. Do you have a product that you are just like loving right now? It can be parenting related wellness beauty. Just you know it's like girlfriend-to-girlfriend you need this. Oh God. I've run the runway unlimited. Love it. I think the one thing that if it went away I would like I really honestly would not know what to do. Yes and it's sustainable you know. Totally sustainable. I don't buy clothes anymore. Yeah I can make her. And lastly where can we find you? Where can we buy your book? Go to BraveKnockPerfect.com and you will and subscribe to my Bravery Bulletin. Listen to my BraveKnock Perfect podcast follow me on Instagram Twitter and join the Bravery Movement. I love it. Thank you so much Rashma for teaching us what our bravery muscle is and we're gonna put it to use and we're all gonna practice being brave not perfect thank you thank you. Thank you so much. Rashma is such an inspiration to young girls and women the world over and it was an honor having her on my show. Rashma thank you so much for reminding us to be brave and to learn to embrace our imperfections. They make us who we are at the end of the day and add substance and character to our stories. If you like to recommend an influential mama to be on my show or want to be featured yourself write to me at that's total [email protected]. I'd like to share a review from one of my listeners Lisa. She writes "I love this podcast. They're great interviews awesome guests at Kanaka does a great job of asking really great questions perfect podcast for moms. Thank you so much Lisa. You are the reason why I keep churning these episodes out week after week. I love that they resonate with you and I'm gonna be creating even more content just for you and all those moms out. Pink Panther is here. Coaching Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the tabby tour hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products and discover custom playlists on Spotify but just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Tammy regularly haul stuff to her kids at college. That's why she shops at BJ's wholesale club saving up to 25% off grocery store prices. Beef jerky, microwave meals, laundry pods even they can't screw up. Have you met my kid? 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