Speaker 1The Telegraph On Remembrance Sunday we are here with Reform leader Nigel Farage to remember the sacrifices made by the few for the many.
Speaker 2We reflect upon the history, the suffering, the glory and ask, what is the state of patriotism today? In modern Britain.
Speaker 1Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey.
Speaker 3Me, Tim Stanley. And me, Nigel Farage. And Roberts recounts that every single man in the room had served on the Western Front. Every single man in the room had seen horror, had seen death on an enormous scale, so understood what Churchill was saying when he said there will be no deals, we will fight to the end, even if we have to die choking in our own blood.
Speaker 2Wow. Here on The Daily Tea we wanted to commemorate Remembrance and who better to do that with than Nigel Farage who is a huge fan of military history. Nigel, we're here at the memorial for Bomber Command. About 55,000 people died in Bomber Command during World War II and people who are listening, I shall describe it, here is a seven-man crew of a Lancaster bomber. It's a really stunning memorial. It's one of my favourite ones in London. When you see something like this, what's the first thing you think of?
Speaker 3I think of all the people every day that go past in their cars, in the back of cabs, in buses and they pass by amazing memorials like this and don't even know they're there. So the first thing I think is I'm delighted this finally got built but are we actually remembering what people did? You mentioned Bomber Command. 125,000 men served in Bomber Command as aircrew. Now, many of those were right at the end of the war. If you joined Bomber Command early, there was a 3% chance on every single raid that you get killed. So after 30 missions, you'd be given the option of a ground job. Many refused. So you're right, 56,000 killed, 20,000 taken prisoner and they were living in Lincolnshire, in Yorkshire, in pretty grim conditions. Very, very long flights. I mean, you can't even imagine the horror, the terror, the sheer raw courage. These are very young men. Young men. I had a friend of mine. I knew him. I knew Ron very well. He said, I was 18. I was piloting a Lancaster until the seventh mission and we got shot down. So, you know, it was your odds of getting through this without being killed or taken prisoner were actually quite low.
Speaker 1Take us back in time a bit, Nigel, to a young Nigel growing up in the shadow of Biggin Hill. When were you first interested in military history? Because your grandfather, Harry, of course, served.
Speaker 3Yeah, he was wounded in World War I. So there's obviously a bit of family interest there. But, yeah, I literally grew up. Next to Biggin Hill. And there were, you know, air shows every year. But as kids, I'm talking sort of into the early 70s, we'd be out foraging in woods and we'd find bits of old German bombers. And I did actually, I think I was about seven, I brought home an incendiary bomb one day that hadn't gone off. Mum and dad are pleased about that one. I don't know. I mean, she sort of lost her sense of humour over that one a little bit. So I was always interested. And then, you know, I started to meet people. We'd flown in the Battle of Britain, both British and German, funnily enough, at these big reunions they had at Biggin Hill. But what really sparked my interest more than anything was the Daily Telegraph. Really? Tell us more. So I remember sort of mid-1980s sitting in a trading room in the city. And we had busy days, but we had quiet days. And we would always look at the obituaries in the Telegraph. And you'd see sort of Fred Hill, aged 94, has just died. He held a picture. He was in a pillbox on his own for eight days somewhere near Epe. And three or four of us got talking. And one of them said, well, have you ever visited the battlefields? I said, no. So four of us in 1986 went off to France, started visiting the Western Front. And that was where my real enthusiasm for visiting, for showing people around, for reading, for collecting, that was where it really started.
Speaker 1When you first went to the Western Front, just tell us the emotions that went through you. Because it's a unique experience that you've repeated often. And some people have never gone.
Speaker 3Well, I went, I mean, when I went, of course, the first trip I went on, there was a chap there with us who'd been at Vimy Ridge in the Canadian Army. And one of the reasons I did so much of it in my late 80s, early 90s, is I wanted to meet the last Victorians who'd served in the conflict before they finally passed away. So that was a very intense period for me. And since then, I mean, for example, the other week, I took a party the other week. And there were two people, aged about 30, traveling with us, who only during the course of the few days they were there, having spoken to home, realized that they had people that were killed in World War I, you know, great-great-uncles and things like that. So it's very easy for families to find a connection of some kind to it. And generally, I find people are fascinated by it. I think what's interesting about World War I and World War II is they're predominantly fought by civilians. You know, previously, we had a very small army, historically. The Navy, of course, you joined up, you were in it for 20 years, whatever it was. But suddenly, you've got people who, you know, are driving bin lorries or stockbrokers, and they're in uniform, and they're fighting in wars. And the First World War is the first time that really happens to us and other European countries. So, yeah, I'm fascinated by all of it. But particularly, the question of luck and fate. Why did some people survive, others didn't? I mean, it was said for many, many years that God died on the Somme. But people started to question. Was there really a God? Could he allow these awful things to happen? But I think we can, and we ought to look back at this period as one of, obviously, sadness and loss, but also incredible achievement.
Speaker 2On the one hand, I'm struck by the courage and danger of the fighting. I'm also impressed by the ability to return home and build a life. And the people who you spoke to, how did they do that? How did they cope with that trauma?
Speaker 3In many cases. Very badly, particularly people who've been POWs. If you've been a POW in either war for four or five years, and you've left at 18, you come home to mum, and you've changed completely. You can't adjust back. I think it was very, very difficult. And I can remember, I mean, bear in mind, when I was born, there were still First World veterans who were still driving trains, buses. They hadn't even reached retirement age. So I remember as a kid, you'd be told, some chap, well, just be a bit careful. He's a bit because of the war. Now, we'd now call it PCSD. Yeah. But there were vast numbers of people from both wars, physically but mentally, very, very badly affected. But kind of life was different, and people just got on with it.
Speaker 1On that level, what do you remember of your own grandfather then? What was Harry like, and what did he tell you?
Speaker 3Really, to be honest, not very much. It was sort of like, we don't discuss that here. And it's kind of like, it's buried. It's not talked about. It's why they're British. The British Legion sprung up in the early 20s. Hundreds of Legion clubs. That was where men could go, have a beer, share their experiences with each other. It was very interesting. Harry Patch, who was the last surviving soldier from any of the armies in World War I. He lived to 111. Harry said that he was married for over 70 years and never once spoke to his wife about his experiences in the Western Front, where he was very badly wounded. And he said, when he was 100, he turned 100, and he saw a flash of light come in from the front. And he thought, well, maybe I'll start talking about this, because there aren't many of us. So I think my family was very typical, that you just don't discuss that sort of thing. And certainly not in front of the children.
Speaker 2And how did you go about finding out what happened to him?
Speaker 3So my own father, who only retired four years ago as president of his Territorial Army Regiment, despite all his years, and my uncle, who'd been a professional soldier as well, they knew nothing about him at all. And so in 1990, I went to the public records office in Kew and went for the diaries, the battalion records, and started to discover the story. Now, of course, you just go online. Go online, yeah. It's unbelievable. I mean, if you want to try and trace an ancestor, you know, soldiers died, and it's all there. And you can piece it together incredibly quickly. So it's very much more accessible. The other thing that's really interesting is, when I first went, in the mid-'80s, on those trips, you'd get to Tyne Cot, near Britain's biggest military cemetery in the world. And there was a parking bay for six cars. There's now a coach park. When I was at Bimmy Ridge, which is only 50 minutes from Calais, and the Canadian government have people that run the place full time, I said to the lady there, I said, gosh, this is busy. Oh, no, she said, it's a normal day. She said, we get over three-quarters of a million visitors every year. So now vast numbers go and visit. Places like that, the Normandy beaches, schools, of course, do a lot of trips. And I just hope we keep on doing it.
Speaker 1But is there a danger, and of course, this has often been said, particularly in recent years, you were lucky enough to be at the Cenotaph, I believe, in 2008, to see the last three World War I veterans lay a wreath. Obviously, veterans are dying. And there's a concern that we cannot have that firsthand testimony. I mean, I remember speaking to my grandfather, who was in the Royal Navy, about his wartime experience. - Yeah. - And indeed my grandmother, she has her first child before the war and my mother is born she's called lynn because they named my grandmother was called vera so they're called lynn lynn after the forces sweetheart slang for gin i mean it's slang for gin as well that actually turned out to be quite appropriate tim thank you but the point is we're the we're the last generation really the generation x's that have a direct contact with a relative you're right that might have served
Speaker 3you're right and one of my constituents died last year jim who did 30 missions as taylor and charlie on lancasters um and yeah you're right look i think you know what's changed that the human stories i think i'm back to the internet i'm back to the internet actually you can see interviews with these people it kind of brings it to life in a way that it wouldn't have done 20 or 30 years ago but my sort of other worry with this is there are people who protest on the streets of london and appear to have a growing influence in terms of what kids get taught at school about our history who fundamentally object to britain's role in world war one because of the balfour declaration yes it was the balfour declaration in 1917 uh you know to commit to jewish people having a home state of their own and partly to get america to join the war i think but but so so there are there is now a narrative that kind of everything we did was bad and was wrong um and that goes not just for world war one and world war two but in fact for the entirety of history and some now i mean even quite intelligent american conservative commentators questioning whether we should have fought against hitler at all are you
Speaker 1talking about tucker carlson
Speaker 3someone that i've always regarded as a friend that i know well i'm just astonished what's going
Speaker 1on there because there are some sections of the right who are literally saying oh well maybe hit that had a point oh yeah yeah i mean
Speaker 3it's it's it's you know we know about the extreme left but but i'm also worried about the far right in our country and in uh and in america as well so that's why there's not any more important pertinent modern reason why uh remembering this remembering what those that went before us did so that we could enjoy liberty and free speech becomes i think in some ways more important than
Speaker 2ever i think some on the right want to delegitimize the wars because they don't approve of the things after them including israel so they want to suggest the whole thing was a horrible error or even churchill was guilty of it and one of the hurtful things about what tucker carlson has said is it forgets the sacred nature of military sacrifice of course there's always a reasonable debate about what did we do and why we had that after the war churchill lost the election but there is a sense of you've got to show respect for what people have given
Speaker 3up in this cause well i was certainly brought up to have deep respect for what had gone before me and i think that's what it's all about i mean at school you know 850 boys of my from my school died in the wars it's like five entire years so i was brought up uh to believe that a great sacrifice had been made but whilst it was desperately awful and sad uh but it had to be done and not just for us but actually for the freedom of the whole of europe as well the world
Speaker 2where it's behind us are um our wreaths of poppies that have been delivered here from new zealand from belgium yeah the czech republic it was a global effort it wasn't just a global effort it was a global effort it was a
Speaker 3well it was and and we also should remember and this is important in terms of integration and people feeling part of this country should also remember that 40 percent of all our effort human effort in the two wars 40 percent came from overseas 40 percent came from well the empire straight commonwealth other allies i mean portugal for example sent two divisions in world war one to the western front 40 of our overseas effort came from the old empire and none of them were conscripted they all wanted to do it so if you go for example you go to eep in belgium or wipers as the british called it with our skills for foreign languages hello hello yeah well it'd be absolutely but if you go there then you can see where sikhs fought you can see where various indian regiments fought you can see where muslim soldiers fought and died as well and again i think that story is perhaps quite an important one that needs to be
Speaker 1told are you satisfied that both world wars have been adequately taught in british schools
Speaker 3no i'm not really and i think actually do you know what we really ought to do go back to 1900 because 1900 the times newspaper writes that now that we're in a new century a man is so much better than he's ever been before that we'll live in a world that's been peaceful and better than it was and then of course we get the first world war and that's the pivot of the old world of the new four great empires fall communism arrives in russia national ism you know hitler basically with phil marshall lutendorff by his side leads a political party of those that have served and felt betrayed by politicians over the armistice over the treaty of versailles women go to work women get the votes the welfare state begins so i think actually the war is a very useful way of looking at everything that's happened um in our country and very interestingly of course we come out of world war ii with a debt gdp we've got a lot of debt gdp ratio at 256 percent and by the late 1960s we've paid nearly all of it off yeah could be some lessons left for today as well
Speaker 2nigel why did you want to take us to this memorial in particular
Speaker 3well it's high park corner the traffic's whizzing around yes i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't know if you've heard of it i don't think anyone knows this is here it was remarkable massive massive contribution by the australians in both wars um particularly in world war one the australians were seen to have been the most effective part of our army whether that's because they were fitter and stronger probably and there may have been some of that to it you know or perhaps they had generals that learnt a little bit more quickly but it was remarkable that at the turn of the century there was no australian memorial in london to their contribution to the war and i think that's a very important thing to their contribution and so this got built it was opened in 2003 for the queen tony blair was here i was here in the crowd uh john howard who was the australian prime minister was here big thousands of australians gathered for the opening um and it marks the over 100 000 soldiers sailors and airmen from australia that were killed in the wars um but but rather beautifully what it does is it names the 24 000 places across the whole of australia where they all came from plus the 40 big battle honours um to which they're entitled i just think it's a very special memorial but also it's a very modern memorial you know you were asking me as these things slip from the edge of living memory will we forget to do these things somehow i don't think so yeah we
Speaker 2can still do beautiful when we try yes we perhaps should try more
Speaker 3again of course in australia we've got a lot of people who have
Speaker 2been killed in australia in australia the war is not without its controversies one thinks of the horrors of mistakes made at gallipoli for instance and there are some i suppose if tucker carlson were here today he might say that he regards these conflicts as a mistake to be avoided what is the best way to avoid that kind of mistake now well i
Speaker 3mean there is this idea that we oh you know the germans are wonderful people very peaceable just the nazis that corrupted them for a few years well i'm really sorry but you know bismarck bismarck unites germany the first thing he does is invade across into el sas lorraine uh you know the germans come back in 1914. and please don't think the germans under under kaiser wilhelm were a benign lot you know they were intent on total domination of europe and interestingly you know the kaiser had views on jewish people for example not dissimilar that's true yes not the same forgotten completely so you know we enter world war one um as a matter of duty as an obligation we're allies of france we're protecting belgium uh but look if we haven't got involved europe would have been a very different place and ultimately that would have threatened us i think there were there were justifiable reasons for both wars and i really but that
Speaker 2alliance system it became a trip wire is the argument and how do we in the modern world avoid that because we don't ukraine yes but we don't want a direct confrontation with russia or is it or do we have to prepare for it do we have to assume it's a
Speaker 3possibility let's face a really brutal truth the tripwire as you describe it of of alliances that got us into world war one helped other countries a lot more than it helped us okay we did pay a very big price the system of alliances we have today let me tell you something if we don't have an alliance with the united states of america through nato we are literally defenceless and i mean we can even look today at the front page of a telegraph talking about russian so-called trawlers looking at all our interconnectors under the ocean i think we're woefully woefully ill-prepared so today for us that alliance with america is everything if you
Speaker 1are of the belief that part of the reason the european union was formed was as a result of the second world war do you think sir winston churchill would have been a remainer or a broadcaster or a remainer or a brexiteer
Speaker 3so i i discussed this with jean-claude juncker oh at length the damn brag no no that was That was somebody else, sorry. Herman Van Rompuy, or Rumpy Pumpy, as we called him.
Speaker 1Junker was the one you used to have a few bevvies with on occasion.
Speaker 3Well, Junker was the one that made me feel like a Methodist, you know. But Junker was a real high priest believer in the United States of Europe. And we discussed it. He said, look, my dad was 19, working in a steel factory in Luxembourg. The Wehrmacht come, say you're a Germanic person, conscript him in the army, send him to the Eastern Front, where he got bandy-winded. And yes, the Germans invaded across the Rhine three times in 70 years. So the European Union is put together to stop the Germans ever doing it again. But what they actually did was they put forward a solution to a problem that was already over. Well, I don't believe German tanks were coming post-1945 at all in any way. And here's the mistake they made. Yes, of course. If people trade with each other, cooperate with each other, visit each other's countries, you know, they tend to have very, very good relations and a peaceful coexistence. But rather than, by stealth, taking the independence, sovereignty and democracy of nations away from them and handing it up to people that you can't vote for and can't remove, by doing that, you're more likely to create division, terrorism, whatever it may be. When we talk about peace, you know, the European Union was designed as a project of peace. What we forget is this. There's not a single example, not a single example, of two mature, functioning democracies going to war with each other. And what we should have done, really, is to robustly fight for democracy to stay strong within European nation-states. And it was really the fall of democracy in the Weimar Republic, if you think about it, that led to World War II.
Speaker 1Is Churchill a hero of yours, or are there other military leaders that you admire more?
Speaker 3Oh, no, Churchill is absolutely, I mean, just the most remarkable man. And I mean, I think, you know, Andrew Roberts in his book describes a scene where just after Dunkirk, when we might have got the men back, but all the kits in France, the whole of, apart from the Greeks who held out, but the whole of Europe has fallen, and defeat looks to be inevitable. You know, and Halifax is urging that we do a deal with Hitler. And Roberts recounts that every single man in the room had served on the West Coast. Every single man in the room had seen horror, had seen death on an enormous scale, so understood what Churchill was saying when he said, "There will be no deals. We will fight to the end, even if we have to die choking in our own blood." Wow, that's what Churchill said. The cabinet gave him a standing ovation. And a rational prime minister would have done a deal. Not a deal that would have lasted, in my opinion, but would have done a deal. So for sheer, outright courage, belief, doing something against the odds, I mean, quite remarkable.
Speaker 2If we're in that kind of conflict today, do you think young British people now would sign up in the way they did in the First World War?
Speaker 3I don't think you'd quite get the August 1914 rush in quite the same way. But I think it's interesting, isn't it? You know, 1914 was a big year for the British. 1933, the Oxford Union. Will not fight for king and country. That motion gets passed. There's outrage. But it's very interesting. The study was done. Of all the Oxford students that took part in that debate, they all served.
Speaker 2They all served, yeah.
Speaker 3They all served. Yeah. So I think the answer is, if people believe that war is justified, that their homes, their families, that everything's under threat, I think they would.
Speaker 2Is part of the issue that people identify their country with the state, or they're encouraged to. When in reality, they're two different things. You know, you wouldn't be fighting for Andy Burnham. You'd be fighting for your home.
Speaker 3Yes, because you see the nation state as an extension of your family. Yes. It's what you belong to. Almost regardless of who the prime minister is, the president is, or whatever it may be. But of course, in our case, the monarch plays a very, very pivotal role. You know, the king and country.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah. We're not going to make this party political, but I did want to ask you how important it is to you to represent Reform UK at the Cenotaph. Because there was a bit of a row about this, and there's a 1984 protocol, which dictates that you need to have a certain number of MPs. And whatever, you made the argument and won the argument that actually you should be there. Clearly, you commemorate Remembrance Sunday every year anyway. But to be at that official ceremony.
Speaker 3Yeah, no, I'll be very pleased to be there. I'll be very honoured to be there. And that'll be important, although, somehow last year was even more important. Because in Walton, in Walton-on-Sea, the year before, the Remembrance Day parade was cancelled through lack of insurance. Yes. And I work with the local parish council, and I had the honour to lead the parade of a thousand people to the Walton War Memorial last year with a 99-year-old Royal Scot veteran, Talay Reid. So I'll be thrilled to be at the Cenotaph and do that. Of course, I will. Honoured to do that. But I'll also be thinking, about these commemorations taking place in thousands of villages all over the country. I think it's really important that we remember that we are a part of that community. I think it's really important that we are a part of that community.
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