Remembering Esther Rantzen: Her last full Telegraph interview

the telegraph welcome to this special edition of the daily tea in conversation with the great dame esther ransom well esther first of all how are you doing you planted tulips last year that you didn't think you'd necessarily see in bloom all true all true and i'm on this uh one of these fascinating new drugs i call it my miracle drug and uh so far it seems to be holding it at bay no i said to my um consultant when am i going to die and he said sometime in the next 10 years so wow um maybe my mother made 94 so maybe i will who knows who knows when you ask the consultant that how do you feel about that question yourself i mean presumably you do and you have been thinking because of the assisted dying debate your own death has that been difficult to think about well when you're diagnosed with stage four cancer um whether or not there's a public debate about assisted dying you automatically think about the fact that you are mortal um it wasn't news to me because i knew i was going to drop off my perch sometime fairly soon i mean when you're in your 20s yes the debate about assisted dying has really amazed me because um i mentioned that i joined dignitas and i had no idea it was going to resonate with so many people but in the recent parliamentary debate in the westminster hall one of the speakers talked about the fact that since harold shipman's murders the regulations involving doctors have tightened up yes so that it's much harder for the public to understand that and i think that's a very important part of the debate and i think that's a very important part of the debate and i think that's a very important part of the debate for them quietly to bump you off in the way you know they did in the older days so i think more people have seen people they love die in pain in a way that they would really not wish to and asking for help to die and not being given it and i think that has persuaded a lot of people that the laws are best at the moment and needs clearing up i saw that you gov polling suggests that 73 percent of the people who are dying are dying and i think that's a very important part of of the british public so three-quarters nearly think that doctors should assist in cases of terminal illness esther i mean is that the distinction to be drawn here that the case must be terminal that somebody must have been told look you've only got months to live in order for this even to be a consideration well that's the proposal at the moment and some people are putting a time scale on it's like six months to live um we're in a quite good position here because other countries all over the place netherlands australia many of the um american states etc have legalized it in different ways so we can look at the evidence from those countries and see what works canada you know and the one thing i can tell you about those countries is not one of them would go back to criminalizing assisted dying they all vary in the minds of regulations they put in the precautions they put in and obviously there must be very careful precautions to protect vulnerable people from you know being pressured into taking their lives or other circumstances which are quite wrong and should not be allowed but if someone asks for help to die it's a sort of choice that we're giving people these days over marriage over birth all kinds of things and i think that's a very important point and i think that's a very important thing so it's the final choice i think but then there are concerns about mission creep liz carr is the actress from well she's best known for silent witness but she's also a disability campaigner she makes the point that she was in a wheelchair from 14 and she looks back at a letter she wrote to her mother saying she wished she could die at the time that she was diagnosed but as she points out she's gone on to live a very happy life yes and i know that a lot of disabled people are very concerned that they'll be pressured and i think what that reflects is society's attitude to disability because they clearly feel vulnerable and uh that people are telling them that they would be better off dead and so on but suppose you're a disabled person who is terminally ill in great pain shouldn't you be allowed to ask for help to die shouldn't we all be asked you know given the choice it's um it's i can understand how they feel and you know i think there were probably exactly the same doubts about when the law relating to terminating pregnancy were relaxed and people were given more choice yes but the fact is that nobody is suggesting anything other than someone requesting for help being given the choice nobody is suggesting that the choice be imposed on anyone that's all we're asking for although there was another example in the documentary of a woman in canada she had been involved in a car accident she became extremely depressed because of her circumstances even though she had the hope of a recovery and she decided that she would take her own life and didn't tell her family about it and of course it's left her daughter distraught because she felt that her mother would have had a chance at a life of quality had she been given more medical and indeed psychological help there's that concern esther isn't there that due to a lack of services you know this may be an option if there is this mission creep that people take if they've got mental health problems perhaps if they haven't got enough money perhaps if they feel lonely yeah well i mean we could go on and perhaps sing for a long time here i mean the fact is that in this country we're not considering mental health pain as one of the conditions where someone can ask for help to die i know that mental health can create just as much suffering as as physical health if you're ill but we're not considering that and indeed canada has delayed bringing in the provision that we would enable those with mental health suffering to ask for assisted death you can only do it with physical suffering and that's a choice for the parliamentarians to make but i think the other argument that's sometimes put forward is that treating mental health issues is improving and that one day soon there will be effective treatment for depression which sometimes at the moment is a term not the honest because it does cause people to take their own lives sometimes under very difficult circumstances like this lady in canada yes how much better surely to have an assisted death with all your family around you everybody agreeing that it's the right thing for you what does a good death look like to you esther because you say you've registered with dignitas and you've also said look i don't want my family to remember me rolling around in agony which i think most people can sympathize with that sentiment but if you did go out to switzerland you'd have to be by yourself wouldn't you because otherwise your children could be classed as complicit in your assisted suicide still a crime in this country so you could be facing the prospect of dying alone yep and how do you feel about that well i think it's not ideal you know it's the for saying come on britain change your law england and wales scotland is um not for the first time ahead of us in this jersey doing well isle of man doing well i mean under what circumstances could you see yourself taking up that place at dignitas oh well i mean if a scan showed that you know the miracle drug was no longer a miracle you know at the moment one of the conditions for six months so i'd have to say to my oncologist you know that 10 year thing you said could you uh could you uh tell me now where we are on this road look we're all dying come on aren't we we're all dying yeah when i when i say to any of my medical friends and relatives you know am i dying they always say we all are so it's only a question of trying to have a good death however you do it when you're going through treatment like this and obviously stage four lung cancer i've asked you about how much you could think about death how much do you reflect on your life because i don't know if you remember but when you first made public that you'd been diagnosed i sent you a message i'm sure you received countless others where i said that you'd been my inspiration to become a journalist and i remember watching that's life in the 1980s and 90s and thinking i want to do your job and you've been that inspiration for so many particularly female journalists have you been taking stock well people have been very kind. I do think knowing that, you know, death is fairly imminent does bring out a huge amount of generosity and kindness in the people, you know, like yourself, because I mean, that was a lovely message you sent me. Thank you so much. And it's nice, if true, it's lovely to feel that obviously you are such a wonderful pioneer in your own way. I mean, everybody, I think all the women who are now taking on these very, very responsible and influential roles, particularly in journalism, are achieving so much. And also, I mean, bringing a fresh approach to issues that affect us all. You know, when I started in journalism, I think things like mental health were consigned to the women's page because they weren't important enough for the men to get involved in. And I think having strong, eloquent women journalists has allowed all these social issues, the emotional issues to come onto the front page. So, I think you've been responsible for a major revolution in journalism to the good. Not all changes to the good, as we know. But then I read in my old newspaper, The Sunday Express, that you're passing on the mantle of child line to your daughter, Rebecca. That must make you happy and proud. Oh, I thought it was wonderful. It was the NSPCC, Child Line is one of their services now, who said to me, how would I feel if Rebecca took it on? And I was absolutely thrilled. And she was, she's completely committed. She's training as a volunteer counsellor, which actually is really helpful in her role as a mother, she tells me. Yes. And she's in touch. She's in touch with all the various members of staff and volunteers and compares notes with them and talks about the training and so on. It's wonderful. Despite all your journalistic achievements, do you look at Child Line and indeed Silver Line as the greatest of them all? Well, I can't claim them as my achievement. I mean, it's one. Well, they are, Esther. I mean, if it wasn't for you, back in 1986, particularly with the launch of Child Line, I remember it vividly. It's affected so many children. It's affected so many children's lives in such a positive way. You were the conduit for all that. Well, I was very fortunate to be part of that. I agree. But there's two different things. One is having a thought. And, you know, I had a thought that when we opened Help Lines after one That's Life programme, and so many children were talking about abuse they hadn't been able to talk about to anyone else, because they'd been threatened into silence. And they didn't feel safe, but they did on the phone. And suddenly, I realised that, a helpline for children might well release thousands more. And, as you say, in the time since 1986, there have been something like 6 million children who use the service, and still do. But I didn't actually create that service. I didn't train the staff. There have been generations of volunteers and staff who have actually made Child Line what it is today. And I'm thrilled with it. I can't claim credit. But I'm thrilled to have been there at the start. And in the intervening nearly 40 years, do you think life's got easier for children or harder? Well, difficult to tell, isn't it? I mean, the 19th century wasn't a very good time to be a child, going up chimneys and all. I think that there are new dangers, which we know about. Social media and the internet and so on. Bullying follows a child home in a way it used not to. It used to stop at the school gates. Yes. But at the same time, you know, the children who contact Child Line, who are among the most vulnerable children, most of them now contact Child Line via the internet. Yes. And send chat to us, and we counsel them the same way. And so, I think banning smartphones from children would mean that the children who are using Child Line would find it far more difficult to get the help we supply. So, Peter Wandless, who runs the NSPCC, has said, "Who's listening to the children? Who's asking them their views?" And indeed, in all the discussions about that, children and the internet, you never hear a child's voice, do you? No. Final question, Esther. You've racked up 84 years, and of course, we associate you with That's Life. What's Esther Ranson's rule for life? What has life taught you? Is there one lesson you can share with us? Gosh, isn't that difficult? It's a big question, I know. It's a big question. My mum always used to say, "It'll be better in the morning." And I do think that if you do feel miserable for whatever reason, bear in mind that I sound like Annie, don't I? Not at all. Not my favourite song, but the song will come out tomorrow. Better bottom dollar. Yeah, it's not my favourite song, but it is what my mother used to say. And so far, so far, I think whatever seems to overwhelm you the night before is somehow more manageable when you wake up in the morning. So I would say look forward to the day, and things will be better tomorrow.