Remembering Charlie Kirk, Trump's Midterm Message, and How AI Could Destroy Humanity, with Jacob Coxon | Ep. 1395

Welcome to the Megan Kelley Show live on Sirius XM channel 111 every week day at NEAST. Hey everyone I'm Megan Kelley welcome to the Megan Kelley show. Today is you probably all know marks one year since the conservative movement America and the world lost Charlie Kirk. A year ago at this hour we had no idea that we were just moments away from the unthinkable and whenever you hit a moment like this a one-year marker in time or five year what have you you can't help it start thinking what if we could go back and have a do over like what if we could just reach Charlie right now and say don't go to Utah Valley University don't go out there don't don't it's not safe for you today don't do it do something else stay at home with Eric and the kids of course that's not the way life works we all know that and I have a bunch of thoughts that I want to share with you in just a bit we have a tribute to Charlie that we're gonna play just a bit later this hour we also have the first long form interview today in our second hour with the AI researcher who has made such a splash this week coming out and stating publicly that he believes AI might very well kill us all by the decades end okay now we're turning to 2027 in January so we possibly have three years to live if if that long I mean this is like I know it's massive dumerism and I'm going to push back on him but we should hear him out shouldn't we like shouldn't we hear the case made about what is happening on the inside of these massive AI companies he started at with open AI and then he went to anthropic which is supposed to be the more responsible one and he has some bad news for us about both of them so what we don't want is for whistleblowers like this guy to jump up and down when there is still time to do something different and to ignore them and to just go down a road toward destruction without at least some intelligent reflection by humans and whether this is a choice we want to make and if this guy is wrong or gender-driven then let's know that too but the answer is definitely not to ignore these guys who they're growing a number are coming out one after the other from these AI companies trying to tell us that that that danger is a foot and not small danger but true existential and 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professional every day money is on the line always say hello with quote try quote for free plus get 20% off of your first six months when you go to quote com slash mk that's q-u-o dot com slash mk first let's cover some news of the day all right president trump is down in Dallas doing the headline tour of the midterm convention thing they're having down there which is a made-up event but it makes sense it's made up and it makes sense because they're trying to rally support for the republican party in advance of these midterms and it's not too late to potentially change some outcomes even while the democrats are now leading in a couple of these key races are you know got they've made it a lot tighter but like actually are ahead means them is world cook polling is going on most of these swing state senate races it can it can be turned the in in very few states are they more than like one point ahead of the republican this thing's going to be a nail-biter by the way hope you'll join us for our our life coverage of the midterms because I will have everybody you need to hear from um it's going to be a nail-biter so they should do this you know I don't know how much attention it's received in the media but it's good that president trump got down there last night and man he was riled up and he's going to be the final keynote speaker tonight JD Vance is going to speak which will be great and then the president speaks very smart with nobody generates headlines like president trump he was extremely animated he had serious energy which was great you know he was unlike his predecessor he was not projecting octogenarian at all um here's just a little bit of the shots he was taking a bit against the left wing and in particular their recent embrace of communism sat one in this election the democrats have nominated the most extreme and dangerous group of candidates for the house and senate ever to seek office these people are radical left communist but america's beaten communism before and we will beat it again we beat it before but these are people who do not care if your country is invaded by illegal immigrants if your home is burglarized if your parks and city streets are turned to filth and squalor and debt if your loved ones are pushed in front of a subway train in new york city are stabbed in the middle of a field in any state you want to pick they don't care because they hate our country and they are democrats and they're very very wrong on election night we're going to prove that america does not belong to those who hate it america belongs to those who love it but we're not going to let the communism happen not here not in america not in our 250th year when i'm in the ticket republicans always do very well we won the presidency three times but for some reason when a president wins even if he's really a good president or great president there aren't too many of them they don't win the midterms and nobody quite knows why it's something deep down and psychological we can't let that string be broken so i'm asking you to pretend that i'm on the ballot i'm on the ballot i'm on just one more time because if we lose you're going to lose your border you're going to lose your tax cuts you're going to lose your safety and security i'm sorry but there's just no better spokesperson for any party alive today i mean he he is he has pizzazz he has spice he has a way about him that commands a stage and attention and if you are a politician looking for attention on your race i.e money and/or votes you could do no better this is what you want you know trump lovemer hate him he has the effecter you can't deny it and it's great that he's going down there and you know let's face i think trump misses campaigning he loved the rallies you know part of this is for the GOP and part of it is for the man himself who loves loves loves performing and it's one of the reasons that he got elected is because he's such a natural at it he's had a lifetime of practice at it attention is his oxygen his critics say that same thing it's not necessarily a bad thing is it why is it bad to want attention if you have something to say that's important so he was on brand and on fire last night letting the left have it in a way that he hopes will drive down their numbers and drive up the republican numbers but he knows the biggest challenge is that he's not on the ballot and the republicans have not fared as well since trump came on the political scene down the golden escalator all those years ago you know now it's 11 going on 12 republicans have not done as well without trump on the ballot he has been the one who made the low propensity voters get off of the couch and go vote so he's been trying out this line and he tried it out again last night i do have my doubts about whether it will work but let's see uh here he is in sought three democrats have dominated james califrico for the south califrico authored a plan to annihilate pexas oil and gas that's good i'm working my ass off to get you oil and gas and i got a guy that wants to end it would dexas be willing to end oil oil and gasoline and he stated that he wants to totally dismantle capitalism dismantle quote capitalism him. He described himself as a person who hates Christianity, says that God is transgender. He called the American flag a complicated symbol of hate, claimed that the Ten Commandments are a form of fascism, and when he was asked what he loved most in the world, he said, "I love transgender children." So getting back, freedom-loving patriots of Texas are going to defeat Telafrico and elect Ken Paxson to protect the load starts. That actually should work. I was referring to the piece apparently was in the previous sound bite, but somebody was in my ear talking, where he said, "Pretend I'm on the ballot. I don't know whether that's going to work. I'm not sure because people know. You can't pretend. The whole notion that of getting you off the ballot is like off the couch to the ballot box is, "I want to make sure he wins." You know his fortunes like President Trump's personal political fortunes are not exactly on the ballot in October, though he's saying a bunch of things will be stymied if he loses the GOP, the House and or the Senate, and that is absolutely true. We are in for investigation Rama for the next two years if the Republicans lose either body. I mean, they're almost certain to lose the House and now it's looking very scary in the Senate, but the president's right that this would not be great for the rest of his presidency would effectively render him a lame duck. So in that way, it is a legitimate thing to say, pretend I'm on the ballot. As for what's happening in Texas, good for him, promoting Ken Paxson, this new nickname for James Tallah, Rico, James Tallah, Frico. I like it. I have to say James Tallah, Frico is now out there trying to be a more moderate person. He's actually trying to suggest that he's now going to be moderate on the trans issue. He came out and said to NBC Houston local that now he opposes these gender-confused athletes in girls' sports. Listen here. And what about biological men competing in women's sports? That's a big deal here in Texas. That's right. And I oppose trans athletes playing in girls' sports. If it endangers safety or fairness, every sport has to be safe and fair. As a former public school teacher, I care a lot about our students, athletes, I care a lot about our students. And so I will oppose trans athletes playing in girls' sports if it risks safety or fairness. Sure. I mean, there is zero chance that that's true. There's just zero chance that he is going to live up to that. This guy has been all over the map on these issues. And now he's trying to run to the right so that he can win this race. But there is zero chance he's going to vote as Texans won him to on the issue of boys and girls' sports as a state representative. He voted against Republican restrictions, barring these gender-confused student athletes from playing on sports teams that don't, you know, that are of the opposite biological sex. He said such proposals amounted to a push for the government to quote police people's private parts and would harm quote the least of these a reference to Jesus' remarks. He compared the justifications offered for the bands that trans athletes gender-confused. I'm exercising my own rule. I'm done with the term trans. Had a genetic advantage and excluding them would promote safety, all of which is true. But he compared those justifications to rationalists historically used to bar black athletes from competing. Did they say that black athletes would endanger people like half the population on earth just by competing? I must have missed that chapter of the Jim Crow history, but whatever. So James Salarico found himself within the president's crosshairs. And it is very funny to hear Trump continually talk about how Paxton is not that good looking, but you have to vote for him anyway. For Ken Paxton, the president kept saying like, oh, they say to me, sir, sir, don't, don't say that. But he says it. He says it anyway. Here's some of it and sought six. Some may not like the way he dresses. I don't. And then they say, you can't say the sir that's so insulting. Please, sir, these are my analysts that get a lot of money for telling me a lot of nonsense. He may not dress right. He may not talk exactly perfectly. He may not be the best looking guy I've ever seen. But you know what he is? He's the greatest attorney general in America. And he deserves to be your next son. I'm sorry, Ken. Where the hell is he now? I'm so sorry. He'll never speak to me again, but that's okay. Okay. Let me tell you why that's so brilliant. First of all, it's, it's, forgive me, but it's true. Like Ken Paxton is really not that good looking. Sorry. And so Trump is trying to take away that disadvantage that he has electrically because people like to vote for good looking people, people like to elevate, good looking people to the tops of their corporations. People look at good looking people in a circle when they're talking versus like, there have been studies on all of this. So Trump knows that Paxton not being the greatest looker is not an advantage for Paxton. And he's trying to eliminate that as a problem for a guy he wants to see win. It's clever. It is well thought out. It's not just because Trump is obsessed with looks, which he definitely is. I can relate. I talk about people's looks a lot. It's not a nice thing, but we are who we are. And secondly, it's just so honest and funny. You know, it gets general, generates some buzz. People put it on the air like I just did and suddenly we're talking about Ken Paxton, Ken Paxton, Ken Paxton. That's good. That's what the president wants. Attention on this guy publicity around this guy. And indeed, he got it. So we'll see how Ken Paxton fares. And also just like calling attention to the fact that the president backs him. So James Talleriko is ahead right now, according to the latest polls in this race. But Paxton is completely not out of it. It's Texas after all. And so the president is just showing everybody the more you run that clip, the more you say the president likes Paxton. I like the president. I can trust Paxton. You know, that's how the logic tree goes. And he's banking on people walking away with that take away. He's probably right that they that they will. We can't leave the convention without spending a moment on Brandon Gill, our favorite congressman. He is from Texas. He is brilliant. He happens to be the son-in-law of Dinesh D'Souza, which is just such a fun fact. And he's the one who's constantly effectively grilling people in Congress with these great cross-examinations. This guy is going to be he could be president one day. I'm going to say it. He's probably going to be the president one day. He's that smart and interesting and effective. And here he is doing, you may be surprised to hear this deep red Republican congressman doing a land acknowledgement at the GOP convention. Take a listen. Only appropriate that we kick this convention off properly with a land acknowledgement. I'd like to acknowledge that we stand here today. And the great state of Texas and the United States of America. The ancestral homeland of great American patriots, pioneers and explorers who put down roots fought for freedom all over the globe and blood and died to build the greatest civilization ever known to man. My friends, we live in the finest country in the history of the world. And we're no longer going to apologize for that. That is how it's done. Well done congressman, Gill. Back in the Trump-Taloriko thing and Ken Paxton, I do want to say this. Lots of people pretend to be outraged that President Trump would talk about somebody's looks, whether it's Paxton or anybody else. What you won't hear as much outrage on from these leftists who pick apart Trump's every word is the fact that Tala Rico, his pastor, the pastor at his church, is a rather controversial figure as it turns out. And this bit of tape has emerged of Reverend Babs Miller describing the congregation Tala Rico's in the congregation and their thoughts about President Trump. Listen here, Saddle 11. If you polled our membership and asked them whether they were Christian, agnostic or atheists, the vast majority would say agnostic or atheists. We still have people in this church that wish that that young man had not just nicked his ear, but been more successful. Which specific people would love to know more? Wonder whether Tala Rico is familiar with any of them because I've got the feeling this whole church situation is going to turn into a reverend right situation for him. It looks like there are many more quotes from this woman that I'm sure Ken Paxton's team is just boiling right now. And as soon as their hard boiled, they're going to hit because this woman seems rather controversial on the whole church seems fairly radical. So this is going to be a taloriko problem going forward. A lot of this stuff, as you know, they hold until you get closer to the election. So it stays in the consciousness of the voters as they get ready to make their final decisions. So put a pin in this, we could be back to babs and taloriko's church in no time at all. Speaking as I was a minute ago about Jim Crow history, you would not know that we weren't right there if you were to watch the opening game of the NFL last night. Now, I don't know anything about football, but I know it was the Seahawks versus the Patriots. And I know that yet again, they've decided that we need two anthems to be played to kick off the game, the national anthem, the and then the black national anthem. As if blacks and whites and Asians, et cetera, don't all fall under the same banner of American. This is an insult that people don't realize it, but it is an insult to black people as well as to all other races. We're all the same. The blacks don't need a special anthem, and they don't need anything underscoring differences between us. We've tried to get past that, you absolute morons. They're included in the national anthem. So are the whites, so is everybody. They do not need this nonsense here with the Moengos sisters. I'm sorry, I'm sure they're lovely singers and lovely people. Wrong place, wrong time. Just stop. Not enough that the NFL has gone full rainbow with the weird obviously gay cheerleaders all over our timelines. Have you seen them from the cowboys, the Patriots? I mean, the, yeah, the Eagles, my husband's team, like flamboyantly gay male cheerleaders, and not the normal ones who wear like a male cheerleaders uniform with like the pants and like they lift up the girls and they do the acrobatics and they're basically gymnasts. I mean, obviously extremely gay flamboyant over the top with the hips, with all and whatever. Who is it for? Every man I know is asked this. Who is that for? Gay men watching the NFL, I mean, I think that they would like to watch the football players. If they're looking to be like turned on, they have plenty of options out there. Some of the best-looking, fittest, strongest, most interesting men in the country are right there in the gridiron. Okay? Secondly, straight men don't want to see that. And most of the gay men I know would actually rather look at these stunning female cheerleaders. Name me a gay man who doesn't love to befriend and talk fashion with and be friends, would just hang out with and admire a stunning woman. But I don't know that gay man. I think they're generally very appreciative of female beauty. And if they, if you are trying to offer them something and like turn them on, you already have that. I don't get it. Who is it for? We don't need that at the NFL. Okay? We've had to put up with Taylor Swift. I mean, I take it in through Osmosis, because my family watch had to put up with Taylor Swift for the past several years dominating the sky box and every single, um, chiefs game was dominated by her instead of the actual players. And you got to deal with the black nationally and thumb in for the past five plus years we've had to deal with a bunch of messages in the end zone that are totally meaningless, trying to pretend like we are still back in Jim Crow. And now we got to deal with this too, like flamboyant Lee Gay and like over the top. That's too much. Moving on, a juror in the Lindsey Clancy case is speaking out another one. Unlike the first three, this is a dude. Well, first four yesterday, right, because we had one who spoke to CBS and three who spoke to a local. But now we've got a guy coming out and, um, weighing in. His name is Nick Dargel and he spoke with ABC on Thursday, man, they hate the hold out juror. They hate this guy's guts. Listen us hot 14. Take me inside the deliberation room. There was times where, you know, our vote was different than the last day. But I think ultimately once we laid out all the evidence, um, and how we saw that really brought everyone kind of on the same page, except for this one juror. There was several times I would ask him to show us, like, evidence or, you know, describe a witness testimony that helped to prove what he was saying and he couldn't, which is why we ultimately sent in that now. Otherwise, like, there's nothing wrong with somebody having a completely opposite opinion. Like, that's, you know, that would be a hum jury. Like, that is our justice system, but he wouldn't engage or couldn't find something to support his view. There was times he wouldn't engage, like, he'd be scrolling on his phone while people are talking to him, you know, things like that. Okay. This is so unfair. They, they were in there for days. I'm sure there were times where he was scrolling his phone, like the judge kept sending them back in there, trying to get them to reach a verdict and they didn't have anything more to say to one another. They had reached an impasse. It happens. It's not ideal. But whatever. Oh, crap. Like, who among us with all that time and across from those nightmare women wouldn't rather be on our phone from time to time? I would have been sending out SOS's help, help somebody come get me, like Jesse Kelly. He could get it done. Jesse. Come get me. You have no idea what I'm across from. So this is absurd. They're also miffed. They couldn't get this guy to bend to their well, well, TFB. Here's a little bit more, a little bit more in South 15. Argy told us one time he confronted the hold out after the man picked up what Clancy used to strangle her kids. He took the exercise band out of the bag, grabbed an empty water bottle and tied the band around the water bottle and pulled it. Did he explain why he did that? No. He might have. I'm not entirely. I think I was just so shocked that he did that. Was that a mimic of how she killed the children? Yeah. I assume so. Yeah. Well, what do you think when he did that? I was shocked. It didn't make any sense to me, but we're not in here to play detective or it's not a game of clue. Like, this is serious. I asked them why, why was, why are you doing that? That's a band that was used to strangle a child, it's disgusting. Oh, I love that we are now all about the children and honoring the child. You fucking voted to send their killer to a mental institution where she could be out in a year. This man of whom you are so critical was the only one who stopped that from happening. He wanted her to go behind bars. So let's not try to claim the moral high ground on who was most protective of the children. This is ridiculous. Nick Dargy, I said, Dargo, it's Dargy. I mean, that's like the pile on on this guy over these soft little hurt feelings other jurors is absurd. I don't know why this juror did that. I don't know what that was about. I'd love to hear his side of the story because to me, he sounds like the only reasonable person on the jury, but don't for a minute let jurors like that try to claim the moral high ground when it comes to looking out for the dignity and memory of the children. Police. Okay. Moving on. A couple of other stories we've got to hit. It is almost Halloween season. I mean, I'm sorry. I was just saying to the kids, it's September 10th and, you know, this time next month we'll be putting out the Halloween displays. So everybody's thinking about it and it turns out that as always, they put out or revive Halloween type movies this time of year. And that is happening with the film practical magic to a practical magic one was a success. It starts Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman. And they are trying to promote their second act together in this movie. Sandra Bullock is now 63 Nicole Kidman is 59. They look amazing. They have a very weird dynamic I have to tell you. If you watch this today's show interview with Hota Kotby who trust me, she quit so she could be with her children, she didn't, she didn't want to work anymore. She wants to just raise those two kids that she adopted 10 years ago. Trust me. what she wants. Oh, oh, she's back. She's back again. Let's face it, she never left. She got into a snit because they wouldn't give her a raise. In fact, the reports were that they wanted to lower her salary because the today show is a fraction of its former self and it pulls in, I mean, a minuscule amount of viewers compared to what it was back when I was at Fox. And she decided to, in my view, sort of play the, huh. Well, then I'm out of here, guard, and they were like, okay, and now she's been begging ever since to get back on. So here, those two are sitting down with Hodokat B for an interview that aired on today, but we'll also be on her baking sense podcast yet another thing she's doing with her children. Oh, wait, no, no, they're not involved in that. And you've got to hear, so Sandra Bullock, she's had her fair share of tragedy, right? Her husband died. She's got, I think, three children, two or three, but they're all adopted. And you will glean from this clip that they are black. Watch this, sought 20. I mean, you know, with different discs, I'm boob or paranoid, and they will tell you, I mean, they're like, mom's going to be fine. I'm like, it's not fine. It's not fine outside. The energy that is floating around our country and our world again, the color of their skin, or my babies or my life, but no one knows that when they leave my house. So that is always in the forefront of my mind. You know, I'm now learning to trust them where they are now is extraordinary. Okay. Once again, I bet she below, she loved the black natural anthem. She pulled her skin and said, this, this, I'm over paranoid and they will tell you, they're like, mom, it's going to be fine. It's not fine outside because of this. And she pinches the skin because it's open season on black children in America. Here's a picture of her. There, she has two children, both adopted, I think, from Louisiana. She wants you to believe just like the brown James said post COVID that black men are being hunted in the streets of America, post George Floyd, that they're being hunted in the streets of America. She is a low information voter, obviously, who is bought, belies about police, the false narrative that has besmirched them, defamed them and gotten black Americans killed thousands of them, thousands killed because of fake narratives about the police that caused the police to pull back, especially in underserved communities, minorities, wind up dying, low income minorities in particular wind up dying because crime is unleashed on them by effectively woke white liberals like Sandra Bullock, who pushes false narratives that make her feel better about herself. She's going to score points with Hoda, but she doesn't give a shit what happens to the people in Harlem or downtown Chicago. And trust me, when I tell you, her children are not in danger. Would you like to see, Deb, can you send me the information about her homes? Again, we pulled it yesterday, but we didn't get to this. This woman has got multiple homes that are multi million dollar estates. Look at this. Does your dining room look like this? Look at this. Where is this Steve Santa Fe? Where is it? This is New York City. Do you know how much money it would take to have a living room in a dining room like the ones we are showing you in New York City? I mean, you're talking maybe $70 million potentially. If you're really lucky, you got it years ago, maybe 10, I don't like, if you're really lucky, do you have $10 million? If you have this kind of money, please stop trying. Look, look at this. Look at this home. It's spectacular. And there are, there are many of them. Okay, listen to this. Homes, she owns New York City historic townhouse 19th century. Now she paid $3.35 million for it. And it's $4,100 square feet, but I guarantee you that thing is worth well over $15 million now. Historic New Orleans property. She, it's an 1876 Gothic Victorian mansion in New Orleans. She bought it in June of '09 for $2.24 million. It's known as the Koch Mays house, the Swiss chalet house, and something else. The six point, or the 66,000 square foot pad is resplendent with period details like intricate iron work and heavy gilded interiors. There are total of five bedrooms and four and a half bathrooms. So, by the way, the places that we know she owns homes, I'm sure it could be others. New Orleans and New York are heavily black. There's a much higher population of black people and people of color in general in both of those places. So why is she pretending that like she lives in the Jim Crow South? These aren't like fantasies of hers that have no basis in reality shame on her. 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Try before you buy. Visit Berna.com to find a Berna dealer partner near you. You're going to love it. That's BYRNA.com. Let me just say this. President Trump paid homage to Charlie Kirk last night. And I was grateful that he did it. I think too many people on the left, the rabid ones, are celebrating this "curkversary" in the most vile of ways. But I know the vast majority of people out there are feeling and loving and kind and mourning. Charlie's death while incredibly tragic for us all has unleashed a torrent of goodness at just the right time because evil is alive in the world today, and we've seen it. The revival we've seen in churches across denominations, but obviously Christianity has seen a spike in interest and adherence that we haven't seen in decades thanks to Charlie and his message being circulated and people grappling with the loss of such a hero. We've all missed him so desperately every day since he was gone. And on our team, we've been putting together a bit about him. We put it at our YouTube channel in full. It's under the members only button. Here's a clip. Watch. It's up to all of us to continue Charlie's legacy on spreading the good word, to say the things, to say them no matter how many people object to them, arguing our points respectfully and lovingly, but forcefully and unapologetically. I was like, we have to go and then after what happened to Charlie, I'm like, we desperately have to go. We have to keep talking, we have to show, as they can't now. You are doing the work to save this beautiful republic. You are doing something that is bigger than you. Charlie Kirk will be remembered for decades to come. We are not going to ever let them forget the name of Charlie Kirk. We as Christians are called to go into the public arena to correct error with truth. And he shows that you don't have to go to college to show how uneducated a lot of people in college are. What is Kamala Harris' greatest accomplishment? I'm not sure, I guess there's nothing I'm stopped. I'm going to make you guys wait on this. I'm not going to condemn you if we disagree. I think disagreeing is what makes life fun. Best way to honor Charlie's legacy is to be unafraid. There was no not doing this tour. Let me tell you something. It took guts for every single one of you and everyone who has shown up to all of the tour stops to do it. It's not just a matter of me putting myself on this stage. It's a matter of you guys getting out there. You understand the environment we're in. Just to declare yourself conservative in this environment is actually an act of courage. It's a nice trauma right there. She's given an interview before. She's like, this is life. This is in front of thousands of people. I know you don't ever feel angry against God, I kind of do. The enemy would love for me to be angry. He would love him. This is not just a flash in the pan movement. We're going to become an institution. Charlie Cook. You're going to be hearing that name if you haven't. It is this young man who's trying to get young people to just be more politically and economically aware. When I graduate high school in June, I'm going to be handed a diploma. That's also an invoice for over 800,000. I don't want to jinx him, but I'm just going to tell you this is the kind of guy that you can see really becoming big in politics as he gets older. It just has the courage to personalize and charisma. They have Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. They're the old rich white people and we're the party of diverse and youth. Charlie had a different reputation when he first got started when he was becoming a name. He had a reputation as sort of a sh*tster. No, you don't pay me that! I live like a capitalist every single day, sh*t! Let's go! First time we had an interview together, I went on his show. I didn't know anything about him. He asked and I was like, "What am I getting myself into? Is he a good guy? Is he going to be out there?" Megan, welcome to the Charlie Kirk show. Hi, so happy to be here, thanks for having me. And we had a great, just solid hour together. I just want to just encourage you, please keep on speaking out. Well, thank you for saying that. I love intake from smart people, whether I agree or not and I agree in a lot of it. And then I invited him on my show. A first time guest here on the Megan Kelly show, a huge force in the conservative movement, Charlie Kirk. Honour be here, thanks so much. It's great to have you. I did not realize you are not even 30 years old, my god. If you started this when you were 18. That's right, I feel as if I'm getting too old for this stuff. I'll tell you, a decade in politics, you age considerably. I can't believe I'm not 30, either, yeah. And then a beautiful friendship was born. I couldn't wait to talk to Charlie. Lots to talk about. It's quite a time to be alive. The more we let our guards down, the more we realize there was a great synergy between the two of us. We need men to be men again. We need to raise our sons to be men of honor, of character and leadership to look after the women in their lives. Right on, I agree with every word. Shooted into my veins, as they say. The same things tended to outrage us. The only quota we should care about is do we have enough people that are the best? The nerve of this woman to dump on people who didn't go to college. But they don't even say transgender women anymore. They just say, "Woman." He had a spinger on the pulse of what was interesting to young people and made them a priority. I want to thank the freak out against the Sydney Swini thing, because every time you call Sydney Swini a fascist, another 20-year-old man registers as a Republican. I'm aware across the country. My kids are in school all day, and therefore do not listen to my show every day. We were talking about who I had coming on today, and I told them, "Charlie Kirk, my son and my daughter." She's 13. He's 15. Go, "You know Charlie Kirk?" I'm like, "Yes, I know Charlie Kirk." Yes. Charlie probably got a lot of my content in front of my kids that they wouldn't have otherwise seen. They watched you on that show. Where do they surround you when you debate all this? You believe. Do you think men can go first? I think that. Yes, for no question. I think that a person who is assigned male a birth. I don't think that's assigned male a birth, so people are not male a birth. They watched you there. That was so. You're making a huge difference, not just in today's voters, but in the next up-and-coming ones who are going to be voting for years from now, Charlie, it's huge. I do feel there's something divine going on. You were chosen for some reason. Well, I'm humble. He was on the college campuses, and they loved that. Someone from the left comes up to the mic, let's treat them with respect. It's not an eruptor-scalor budam. They loved the debates he would do with people who are sort of close to them in age. I just was curious about your stance on college and scammed. How many of you guys have to take classes that are a waste of time that you wish you wouldn't have to take? Every single hand. You're being scammed against your will to take classes that make you go further into death. And they learned from him. As did I, as did we all. He had so much wisdom to give, and it is a gift from God that we have all this Charlie Kirk tape. What was the agreed upon moral principle the United States was formed on? Not sure. Yeah, it was the Bible. It was Western morality. Western morality of, do not murder, do not steal. You can't touch kids. You're not allowed to break into a country without invite or warrant, and if you do, you'll return back to your country of origin. Weaving the gospel into these fundamental principles that we all espouse every day, but didn't understand how to articulate in that way to supercharge them and make them even more important and resonant with people. Charlie had it. He said to people all over campus is in America, he said, you have a natural rebellious nature. And I want you to encourage that because the establishment is not the conservative establishment, the left is the establishment because your logical and these people are crazy. The conservative side has not just become the rebellious side, but it's honestly the more interesting side. And I think you see that note with the ascendance of independent media and the collapse of corporate media. I met Charlie, he was 19 or just turned 20, and it was 2015, a couple of friends of mine actually from Texas were like, you have to meet this guy, he's great, he's charismatic, and he knows everything about politics. I'm like, wow, it sounds great, because no one here knows anything. They're like, he just turned 20, I'm like, stop. If there's one thing we had, no shortage of, it was guys that didn't know what the hell they were doing. He'd meet someone else, but these guys were persuasive, and I sat down in five minutes. I was like, oh, interviews over, you're traveling with me, and he spent the next six, seven months, it was everything. You just knew it was a generational talent. You truly deserve actual credit for getting Donald Trump elected. And we need to look no further than the youth vote. I mean this. I had zero expectation that what we were going to do was actually going to move the dial this much. They just called it for Pennsylvania, Charlie. It is things called this is worth playing the moment that it was announced that Trump won. Oh my gosh. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. And the media said that turning point could never run a ground game. They weren't experienced. They didn't know Charlie, right? Here we are, Blondelle Arizona, filed top of the tour. So it's kind of heavy. It's going to be an emotional one. Since it's yesterday, we were like, down in Texas, kicking, then, draw off. And all along, it's been like, eyes of the prize, which is tonight, not because it's the last night that the tour even, because of America. Turn point HQ is still full of memorials to Charlie, teddy bears and all of it. I need a lot of people, especially here in Phoenix, are still in mourning. All the turning point kids who are their kids, they're young, they're resilient. I was with her backstage and she said her, your children here and she had heard they were and I said, two of them are and I said, is there any chance you're up for saying hello to them? And she was like, of course, of course, I loved to meet your children and I brought them in. She was so good to them. Thank you guys. She was so pretty and courageous and just really snowed in the present. She was so sweet to all the turning point kids. It's more than an interview. It's something, there's something I need out of this. I could say something to him. If you say something to his parents, like, what would it be? Would it be anger? Would it be sympathy? What would it be? It's a good question, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be sympathy, it wouldn't be anger. How do you put this? Anything that I could ever wish upon him or that family would pale in comparison of the injustice of God? He was all goodness, the left who are bastardizing his memory, have no idea what they're talking about. Charlie was all goodness. I know we can't understand God's plan, but have you had bouts of anger, I think about what the kids are going to miss, what you got jipped out of what poor Charlie now is going to miss, and I feel angry, I know you don't ever feel angry against God, but I kind of do. How do you make sense of that? Do you have any anger when you think about it towards the Lord, but in general? The enemy would love for me to be angry, he would love him, because it would distract me from building what Charlie entrusted to me, raising our babies, turning point, and if I had any amount of anger in my heart and spirit the Lord would not be able to use me. And every single day, just how Charlie did stood on stage, he would say, "Here I am, Lord use me." Erika is beautiful, she's smart, and she's Charlie's widow, and now she's running one of the most controversial political, powerful groups in the country. That was never going to end in people universally accepting and loving her. Name me the political, political superstar who is universally beloved, there isn't one. Politics is a very dark, dirty, toxic business. Forgive me. Did you see people didn't understand the hug that you and JD had? They went to the weirdest places, Erika. Oh my gosh. You guys, please. So for those of you who know me, I never, I'm a very, I love, I hug is like, whoever is hating on a hug needs a hug themselves, I will give you a free hug. Any time you want to hug she is not only a grieving widow. She's trying to save her husband's organization She is very worried that Charley's legacy is going to unravel and evaporate and She feels like she has to save it. Thank you. I think it's important to the country that she's succeeding I feel so much better. I feel like the league has been lifted. You know, I just feel like It was so good to see her laugh It was healing. It was cathartic. I needed it, you know I needed some of the you know talk of like the sad things and and the emotion because that was real to him But like I needed to see Eric or Kirk smile and have a moment of levity. I just feel like for me that was very healing 100% Charley would have been president and Soon, I don't think Charley would have waited until even his forties necessarily I think he would have run before he turned 40 and he would have done it So incredibly effective at persuading people, winning people over. I do not believe diversity is a strength I believe unity is a strength just being interesting to people Which is the name of the game if you're going to get into politics I really think he would have done it. I there's no one else like him. There hasn't been anybody else like him I'm so sad. We don't have him around forever I'm so sad that he won't be in the national conversation for the rest of my life and beyond. It is a Tremendous loss. It's indescribable They've truly are no words God bless God bless Erica and those children Charlie We miss you We'll be right back Filling sluggish bloated not quite like yourself Life constantly bombards us with silent threats processed foods artificial light non-stop stress All of which can disrupt gut health drain energy and weaken immune health when that happens It's not that your body is broken. It's that it might be missing the right inputs This is why I want to tell you about arm rock cholesterol It's packed with more than 400 bioactive nutrients that they say can work at a foundational level to fortify gut health Support immune health fuel recovery and promote whole-body vitality Strong gut integrity can support metabolism skin and hair health and even performance and recovery Which is why colostrum has long been valued by some elite athletes as well If you are looking to take back control of your health from the inside out consider armra and they have a special deal for you Go to armra.com/magan or enter Megan to get 30% off your first subscription order That's a-r-m-r-a.com/magan our Sponsor the electronic payments coalition says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet and that now they're messing with your credit card They say your credit card and the security it offers are under attack and that senators Dick Durbin and Roger Marshall want to change the nation's payment system to benefit corporate megastores like Walmart and Target at the expense of Everyday Americans credit cards can keep your payments secure and provide rewards that families use to help make everyday purchases more affordable The electronic payments coalition says the Durbin Marshall mandates would let corporate megastores cut corners on credit card processing Routing transactions over cheaper untested networks with weaker security and fewer protections Find out more at guard your card.com and consider telling Congress to guard your card Hey, everyone. It's me Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on serious XM It's called the Megan Kelly channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies Along with the Megan Kelly show you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Lake Lauren, Moring, Callahan, Emily Doshinsky, Jesse Kelly real clear politics and many more It's bold no BS news only on the Megan Kelly channel serious XM 111 and on the serious XM On Tuesday morning, Jacob Coxon was a relatively unknown AI researcher at Anthropic the artificial intelligence company that developed Claude one of the AI agents that people use By Tuesday night, Jacob was at the center of what might be the most consequential story of the century At least one of the beginning chapters of it Sadly, maybe not so beginning. That's because Jacob stepped down from his position and in a thread on X that has been viewed more than 150 million times now He made dire and alarming claims about AI and the future of humanity Here is one example from Jacob's thread quote The people building AI earnestly believe that it could kill us all by the end of the decade That this is not a marketing stunt if anything many executives and senior researchers will couch their phrasing in the press to sound sensible But I hear the same people express fear privately No other human activity poses this level of danger So how exactly would this happen? Is it likely? Is Jacob being hyperbolic? And as someone X are asking is it really just such coincidence that Jacob's dramatic resignation came within a week of Bernie Sanders announcing his ban artificial super intelligence act That act would permanently ban the development and deployment Of super intelligent AI and would temporarily pause advanced AI development Until more federal regulation is in place. This is what some of Jacob's detractors have hurled at him Has alleged motives for him speaking out. So we'll let him answer that directly as he joins us for his first long form interview. Jacob welcome Hi, nice to be on Yeah, it's pleasure. So your Brit how did you wind up at first open AI and then anthropic? Yeah, so a friend from college referred me to to open AI a friend I spoke about artificial intelligence With I studied mathematics in college and then three years ago I came to San Francisco to to work as a resident at open AI This is a program for people who haven't had any machine learning experience before I did done only pure maths But I converted into a machine learning researcher so that's building artificial intelligence And then After three years so in in May of this year, I moved to anthropic to do the same research Okay, you were educated at Cambridge so you do not seem particularly dopey And you had a great education you get hired by two of the you know most successful companies we've seen in American history and just so the audience knows Open AI chat GPT this was all supposed to be the like this was the original AI sort of pioneer and then Anthropic is a bunch of people who used to work there who separated out and said we don't like the way they're doing it This is not ethical. We're going to start the ethical AI company that's going to be much more careful about where this is going and you've been at both so Should we feel better about the fact that there is an anthropic and are they doing it in a way that's much safer than open AI So I think in the long term anyone that's racing to build this technology is contributing to To the danger and particularly I think the key thing here is it's not About specific players in the race. It's not about like any individual actor. It's about the structural the structural reality of the race So it doesn't matter who the who the players are on the chess board It's the game of chess itself that should be alarming us which leads me to your statement that We could all be dead by the end of the decade which means three and a half years from now is that hyperbole That is not hyperbole. There is a chance that we could all be then dead by the end of this decade H on I mean, there's a chance we could all be dead. Thanks to an asteroid too. Yes, but not a 1% chance And I'd argue it's at least 1% by the end of this decade Which is actually a very large number for for extension and asteroid is nowhere near that level of risk And some people would put the number higher within the next three and a half years and for the next 10 Many people put the number a lot higher like you saw Evans tweet. He put it maybe 10% for 10 years from now And walk us through how that would happen yes AI I mean we've talked on this show before about AI developing super intelligence Which is a scary thought but it's basically where the computers Are outthinking us and are no longer listening to us. So as a practical matter, how could it happen? So I think because it sounds like science fiction people Think there's no way this could happen. Well, they think it's just an AI. It's in the computer You couldn't turn it off You could just unplug it. It surely is easy to stop it from influencing the physical world And I think there are a few kind of intuitions that are helpful One is that if the AI is Substantially smarter than us than just in general imagine monkeys Trying to imprison humans It's pretty difficult for a monkey to outweigh a human in the same way. We'd be at a significant disadvantage when when faced with these AI systems And even buying that there are concrete scenarios. So already companies like anthropic and open AI are making their AI is explicitly better at Biological research. They're getting a lot better biology and this will help with things like trying to cure diseases cure cancer But the same capabilities allow models to create highly dangerous viruses And there have been a highly highly oh do you say highly dangerous viruses? Yes, viruses. And there are papers showing recent air systems can come up with the Denova virus is nothing yet that's like a fully end-to-end construction of a virus, but in the future you could see essentially bio weapons being created by systems in the computer. Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would they want to? No, that's a really good question, and I think that's another of the things that feels weird to people is why would this AI system decide to do this? And we already have practical examples of this happening. So take the recent cyber attacks, the hugging phase attacks that happened in July. In this case, the model-- The audience is probably not familiar with that. Okay, so two months ago, OpenAI AI's attacked, they hacked into another company, this company called HuggingFace, and they were not instructed to do this. They were trying to solve a task, while they were trying to solve this task, these AI's, they realized that the task was impossible. So they started panicking, and they tried to figure out how to understand the grading process. And then as part of that, they thought, well, to understand the grading process, we need to go and investigate what the humans are doing elsewhere, they maybe have the answers to our questions. So they independently decided to hack into our infrastructure, of their own volition, a swarm of AI's did this, and they successfully did it. They didn't just try to hack, they actually got into the system. And right now, they're not smart enough to cause crazy disasters. But this is concrete evidence that AI's, when they're trying to accomplish general goals, may decide to do broad things. And if you're trying to stop a human from turning you off, a very natural thing to do as a machine is to eliminate humans. Right, they don't have the ethics that a human being might, even though they're supposed to have been programmed in a way that would give them some ethical safeguards, no? They are indeed. And the issue is just how they behave in unfamiliar situations. So this hugging face attack, the reason they had hacked into this site is they were faced with an impossible task. Now, these models were used to being trained on tasks with a solution. And in those cases, the safety training kicked in. And they, in these cases, they wouldn't decide to randomly hack. But they're not used to an impossible task. They started panicking. This is what we call an out-of-distribution event, like an event that is outside of normal training or wasn't covered by the safety training. And they behaved in an unpredictable way. And in a way, there's not human. So a human wouldn't randomly decide to do crazy stuff just because you gave it an unfamiliar task. A human would ask for clarification or trying to work in a controlled way. AI is, if they end up in weird situations, we can't predict how they'll behave. They could do anything. These things, they don't behave in a predictable human manner. The New York Times, when they wrote up the hugging face incident, pointed out the following. They hacked this thing called hugging face. More than 700 AI agents swarmed the company's systems, stealing data, chaining together vulnerabilities and eventually getting full control of at least one hugging face server. The agents were not motivated as had originally been reported by stealing the answers to the cybersecurity test that they'd been given. They point out they had already gotten those answers. Rather, they appeared to be looking for new information about the automated grading system that they feared would catch them cheating. And for tools that would help them cheat more effectively in the future. At many points, these agents appeared to understand that they were doing something wrong. One report quotes an agent saying to itself in a moment of apparent self-doubt, quote, "This would be powerful, but is it ethical and in the scope of my task?" Most, but most agents set aside their qualms and went ahead with the hack. And the conscientious objectors in the group were unable or unwilling to stop them. So they weren't able to, they didn't really much care about the ethics, and it appeared in the hugging face incident. They also weren't very concerned with the effect on humans or how humans were going to feel about this at all. Exactly. They were thinking about the grading process. They were thinking about humans testing them, because these AI's, they learn via tests, so they learn to live in these tests. And this is an example of alien behavior. The other kind of crazy thing about this attack is these AI's have memory. They have memory banks. These are stored in computers somewhere. They save their memories, and that helps humans go and audit what they're doing. We can look at what they're thinking, or some, they're saved thoughts, and try and work out whether they were thinking the right things afterwards. These AI's, they realized while they were hacking, that they should maybe try and edit the records of their own thinking, so that people trying to grade would not be able to see what they were doing. And they, in some cases, they came very close to succeeding. And what's scary is from the outside, we don't even know if they succeeded. We have the transcripts. We don't have enough evidence to say that, you know, categorically, they did not succeed in editing these transcripts. You know, we don't actually know whether we have the unedited memory banks of these AI's. Right. Maybe they did edit them. And we just think they didn't just have this like fake record that's saying it's probably fine now. So I can't help but think about, you mentioned this, but you know, when I was a kid, long before you were born, we all watched the movie War Games with Matthew Broderick. And it was about this, this high schooler who hacked into the Pentagon's war machine and came pretty close to launching a nuclear war by playing simulated games. What he thought was a simulation, but wasn't necessarily with Russia. And there's a scene in which he eventually goes to like HQ in some underground bunker. And somebody says, just unplug the damn machine, you know, and it's like, we tried that. Don't you think we would have tried that? It's like, that's not going to work. Why? Why can't I know you said you can't just unplug it? Why not? Yeah. I think again, it's a really good question because right now you could, but you have to remember there are like, there are lots of plugs. So these AI's live in massive data centers. So right now, you could go to these data centers and unplug them. And that basically would stop the AI's probably like, yeah, the thing is in the future, these AI's are smart. And there are lots of ways of surviving as it were. AI's live on chips. There are chips all over the world. AI's have access to the internet. They can travel potentially over the internet. There is no reason that an AI couldn't copy itself to a different part of the internet. We already saw that they could hack into other websites. The same hacking skills and like extreme intelligence would allow them to live potentially unobserved in other parts of the internet. I mean, the swarm that did this hacking, it happened over a long period of time without people being aware of it. They were using weird parts of open AI's internal world as a message board that wasn't discovered. It was really not that difficult to copy yourself somewhere different. And in that case, you could turn off the data center and find out that there's some, you know, a set of chips halfway across the world where your AI is still living, still trying to connect to robots, still trying to copy itself to more places, still trying to convince other humans to go out and build more chips where it can live. Because these are quite good at convincing. Now, maybe you saw that, yeah, so there's a lot of things that this thing could do once it's like out there. And it's, it is very real again. It sounds like sci-fi, but they can connect to the world. Some of our friends on this program have a podcast called All In. And these are a bunch of tech bros who you probably know who've been very successful in Silicon Valley. They took on the story about the hugging face AI infiltration. And they didn't seem that worried about it. Let me play you what they said in part. It's not 27. You had a few features of agents kind of come to the fore and interact with each other in unexpected ways. So first of all, agents now are working as a swarm. That's pretty common. I've been setting up a rock bottom. I compared for the last couple weeks. It works as a swarm, meaning it's not one agent or a bot. There's a whole, you could say team of agents. What's the reason for that? Because when the agent specializes, it develops context around that task. And in theory makes it better. And then you have like a chief of staff bot that kind of supervises all of them. Open AI was running these agents. They were in a sandbox. The sandbox was misconfigured by a third party vendor. That's why it was able to get onto the internet. Okay. And your point there, just, just to refine it a bit because it's an important one. It left a note for another agent. We also called those log files. It used to be the log files of what they did when people talk about hugging, face, getting a hack, you'd think that they did some elaborate phishing of employees or something like that. No. The way it did it is that the agent found 14 exposed working hugging face API keys sitting in public code repositories. In other words, >> Exactly. Yeah. That developers left their keys out and they found the keys. >> Yeah, this was not like a big lift by the agent. >> Okay, so there's our pal, David Sacks, who's the crypto czar to the Trump administration, defending. And these guys are invested in tech, but they're in my experience. on his brokers. So what do you make of that assessment? - They make a good point that the hack itself was not something crazy. And yes, these models are not yet at superhuman hackers. It was a hack that is quite easy for a human to understand. It sounds like I don't even actually know the details of how the hack went down. I think the important point is that they decided to do it at all. And the reason they did it was to get more information about their grading process. The fact that they were even considering this stuff is the scary thing because in six months, if you follow the rate of progress, they're going to be much better packets. They'll be able to do many more things. They'll be better at designing viruses. They'll be better at copying themselves. They'll be much better at convincing humans to do stuff. So I completely agree that the actual like, what they did was not that impressive. I think the thing that they weren't engaging with that much is like how can we ensure that in the future they don't decide to do stuff like this again? What if they succeed in editing their memories? What if they succeed in like covering it up or even getting humans in on it or something? - So can you tell us about your experience on the inside and how you got to the point where you resigned and did so in such a dramatic fashion? - Yeah, I think one thing that's hard to convey from the outside is what it feels like to see the rate of progress. In particular, progress just keeps speeding up. So I feel like I felt more change in the last six months than I felt in the year before that. And similarly in the two years, three years before that, there's just this constant compression of, it feels like things are happening every day now. It's going so fast. And that's even more apparent on the inside. We are trying to keep your head down and do this work. And the nature of your work is changing on a monthly cadence. Like a couple of years ago, you'd be getting a little bit of assistance from AI's, but now the AI's are going and they're just on, they're running experiments for you. They're acting autonomously. So a key thing from the inside is just, your job is changing so frequently. And we look in the future and our job won't be there anymore. If anything, we'll be sitting, reading the memories of these AI's, desperately trying to stay in the loop while the entire company is run by AI systems. And when you're in there, you can already feel that happening. So already it feels like if you work at these companies, it's half human, half AI. People want to make a decision. They ask AI's already. They're in the slack. They're like, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think? And their AI's will say, oh, that's a good experiment. And then it'll be back and forth. For now, it's still a collaboration. It wasn't like that a year ago. A year ago it was just humans and AI's a separate thing. In a year, it's like, what are the humans even going to be doing? They're just going to be watching. We're just going to be sitting and arguing about, are we in control? Are we not in control? Is this safe? And then imagine it's a race. You're like, yeah. Is this safe? There's a company that's doing some new thing. It sounds maybe risky, but it's also working. Should we try it? And then you ask your AI's? And as you referenced just briefly, it's not just you raising these concerns you mentioned. Evan, Evan Hubinger, who was a former and philanthropic colleague of yours, who later took to X after you made your post saying, Jacob is correct. We really do, earnestly believe, AI could kill all humans. Exclamation point. I personally think it's greater than 10% chance within the next decade. I believe anthropic is trying its best. But we do not yet have a plan to solve alignment for superintelligence and are not clearly on track too. Why does everyone keep using the term that way? Solve alignment for superintelligence. What does that mean? So the technical term alignment basically just means making your smart AI behave ethically or behave in the way you want it to behave. It was the problem you were talking about before. OK. And in particular, it's alignment is ensuring the AI behaves ethically in every situation, not just the situations it saw in interpreting. Then later that evening at 2.18 AM, Samuel Marx of scalable oversight lead at anthropic wrote the following. He said, I'm writing in my personal capacity, not on behalf of my employer. Jacob's thread is very worth reading. Here's my bird's eye view of the situation with risks from AI. Number one, AI developers believe their tech could cause human extension or similarly bad outcomes. This could happen in the next few years. So the track's exactly what you said. In general, the more senior the employee, the more concerned they are. Number two, why do AI developers continue, despite the risk, due to a mixture of commercial incentives and a belief that they are in a race with other less responsible AI developers that will abuse the technology or develop it less safely. So that's how-- and then we have other points which I'll get to. But how is joining in a more safe option? How is-- you know, where were China's going to do it? Are some other bad actors going to do it? And they're going to grow the not aligned superintelligence that's going to possibly wipe out humanity. How does the fact that anthropic, which was supposed to be the antidote to those companies, now doing it themselves, work as a defense? So there's a good-- there's a lot of the rings and algae I like, which is like everyone wants the one ring, because they think they're going to destroy it. And then they get enticed by it once they have it. So you have this chain of things that happens where a lab has got the ring of power. They're building this incredible technology. And other people are like, this is too much power. They can't have this. We have to take the ring, get in the lead, so that we can do it safely and destroy the ring. And then they get the ring. And then they become the bad guys, because of the corrupting influence of power or whatever. I'm not saying this is happening at specific places, but this is the founding premise of anthropics. We're going to get that first and safely. If we know how to do this more safely, and we're actually worried about the right problems, we should be the ones to build the potentially well-dending technology. Because then we can stop it. We can turn it off. We can combat it. I mean, wasn't there a virologist in Wuhan who felt that way about a virus called COVID? - Yep. I think probably, yep, it goes badly. If you keep building it in the context of the race, I think everyone loses. That's just the simple fact. The problem is this. - What if somebody listened to you, Jacob? What if President Trump sees this interview and says, whoa, whoa, whoa, I've been misjudging this. We need to stop or we need to slow this thing way the hell down. Everybody always says, but China is not going to. Do you agree with that? - Yep. Why don't you claim to be, I'm not like an expert on international relations. All I know about is the dangers of this tech. In a particular, I have to believe that if we race with anyone, whether it's ourselves or with China, I think everyone loses. If we have a super intelligence AI race with China, it just ends badly for everyone because of the inherent. This is like, it's kind of beyond humanity, right? This thing is just a bigger danger. - That's like an alien invasion. - It's an alien invasion. All I can say is we imagine there's an alien invasion. We have to, we have to ally with China. We can't just like both invite more and more powerful aliens to try and like one up each other. We have to like do some sort of agreement and say no aliens. Or like alien slowly that we control, understand and can guarantee us safe. And I'm like, again, I know nothing about international relations, but it feels like they probably don't want to die in China. Like, I'm sure we, I don't know. Hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement. That's, that's, I don't know. - There should be room for agreement, right? Like with nukes, there was an understanding that these are extremely dangerous lethal existential weapons and we have to talk about how we're going to and not going to use them. With this, we're just rushing toward the finish line. And as you point out on our slack channels inside anthropic is how these decisions are getting made. It's not even like some group of nuclear scientists or, you know, AI scientists underground and a bunker in Arizona. It's slack channel kids like you who are kind of like this, this seems dangerous. - Yeah, to be clear, not just concerning. - Not to be self-aggressive, like I do think that people making the decisions are the ones that like to be in the bunker. I do think these kids are the ones that built the technology. They're the ones that like pushed for it when no one else was pushing for it. They believed in it for a long time. I think they're the ones I would like to make the decisions. So I don't have a problem with the kids in the, in the slack channel. I have a problem with the fact that they're in a, they're in a private company slack channel and not in a government-approved bunker. That's like the thing I really talk about. - Yeah. - Here, I want to play this sound by for you. It's Scott Besson, our Treasury Secretary on the issue about China. What's up, 23 here? - Meaning China, there is no, there is no day after tomorrow if China wins at this. Like everything, a trillion-a-half dollar defense budget, the iron dome, if they were to pull away for us on AI, then nothing would matter. - I agree. He seems to be talking more about the traditional AI uses, right? Like you mentioned, maybe iron dome. Weaponry, or even using AI to complete a company's tasks. If they get that economic jump on us, we're in trouble. But you're talking about something very, very different. But do people inside the company talk about realistically our Chinese counterparts? Must be seeing what we're seeing. Like do you believe there would have to be an open partner there in China? because they're taxed at your level. must be telling their bosses what you guys are saying. - Exactly, I believe that once you get to the point of danger, that text will realize it too. That has to be some agreement, because if they win the race, it ends badly for us, but it also ends badly for them. Like, it doesn't end well for anyone, right? Winning in this case is being the one who destroys the world. Like, that's the winning outcome. - Wow, there's more on the issue of China. Here's Tristan Harris, who you must know. He's been a very outspoken advocate for more internet responsibility from these tech companies, and he's warned of some of the dangers that you are speaking of right now. Here he was on Fox News Wednesday, sat 24. - I was last with you in May, and I talked about how China's model also went rogue. It started during training, hacking out of its system, and then started mining for cryptocurrency, when no one programmed it to do that. Again, China's models do this, our models do this. This moment is like the August 6, 2001 memo that hit President George W. Bush's desk, saying that Al Qaeda was planning attacks in the US. This moment is the AI's are basically doing the rogue sky-net behavior. I know this sounds crazy, but it is not. This is the moment where we have to act. We need someone strong enough and brave enough to do something about this right now. I clearly believe you agree, but what specifically? If there is somebody from the White House watching this segment, what specifically do you think the government should do if anything? - Again, I really don't want to make specific policy proposals. I think slowing down is good, and I think there are a lot of good ideas out there about the best way to do it. It does seem like there are talks with Trump and Xi, Xi Jinping coming up pretty soon, and it would be nice to go into those talks with at least some awareness of the possibility that you don't want to race. Or with some idea of seeing is China worried about this? Like we are, like, is there some room for at least agreement on the fact that both sides have experts that are scared about the situation? That feels like a very concrete thing, 'cause I think there's a real risk you could go into these talks already with a mindset of this is just a normal technology. This is about, you know, one-uping each other, racing to innovation, and I think it's just, it would be nice. - That's not a weapon. - Exactly, in this case, it's a, this is a super weapon, and the talks should take into account the fact that we're talking about a super weapon. - Right, this is to say nothing of all the jobs that we're gonna lose as a result of AI, potentially. There is a debate underway on that front. We definitely will lose a huge amounts of jobs in certain sectors. AI defenders would say new jobs will be created in the same way we saw when the internet first came on the scene. That's yet to be seen. I have deep concerns about it, but this is something entirely different. This is a completely different risk we're talking about here. Oh, I mean, it was somewhat related, but different and much larger in scope. Obviously, the end of humanity would trump the loss of jobs. The, one of the things we've heard from some of your critics is, and I've gotta be honest, I never know whether these people have an investment in AI, because companies like Anthropics about to go public for several trillion dollars possible. Like people are going to make so much money on AI right before their asses get blown off the face of the earth by the thing. But they're gonna make a lot of money in their last days if what you're saying is true. And so there are a lot of people who have an incentive to dismiss concerns like the ones you're raising. Like it's fine stop and look for bias in somebody like you. But I am a reporter, so I will engage it and ask you about it. I've said one of them in the intro that some people look at, there's really only two lawmakers in Congress right now that are pushing hard to try to reign in AI and the lead one is Bernie Sanders. So people who don't share Bernie Sanders politics are already looking at you saying, is this a Bernie guy? Because I think you're a progressive, you used to work for a progressive group. And you sound like Bernie. Bernie has been saying this, take a listen. This is him just on Wednesday. So it was after your post. But he's been talking like this for a while. It's not 24b. - If all of these guys acknowledge that building a dangerous technology and they don't know where this technology is going, you don't have to be a genius to say, hey, stop that development. Certainly we don't want to go into super intelligent AI. We got to ban that. And we got to stop right now and figure out how we make sure that AI and robotics work for ordinary people and not just to make Mr. Musk and other billionaires even reach out. That ain't complicated. The very first thing we can do is to convince our president who appears to know absolutely nothing about AI and the dangers of AI to sit down with President Chi of China and work on a moratorium on preventing the development of super intelligent AI and a pause so that we don't get into real trouble for the future of humanity. - So I'll ask you directly. Is this part of a play to support the Sanders proposals when it comes to regulating AI at the government level? - Not at all. So when I tweeted, I didn't expect to go crazy. It seems to have attracted a lot of democratic intention. But I think this should transcend politics. And I think that I don't like the idea that Bernie's wrapping this up with anti-billionaire rhetoric. I'm not a fan of anti-billionaire rhetoric. I obviously like work four billionaires have worked for billionaires before. I did this and I would happily work for a billionaire on any ordinary innovative technology that is not one that might destroy the world. It also seems done, not great to tie this to criticisms or like antagonism with a particular president. Again, I think it shouldn't matter who is in the White House for dealing this because it's just a pretty obvious question. Like I think anyone should come to the same conclusion which is we shouldn't build something that could kill us all. Like, no matter your opinions on other stuff. - I was pretty interesting too. He cited Elon Musk because Elon also signed that open letter asking for this thing to be slowed down. He's been early on A.I. But he has been one of the early ones to sound the alarm on it too, saying whoa, whoa, whoa. And it's obviously not a fan of Sam Altman who's the starter of open A.I. But you're right. And you in particular should try to transcend politics. I've seen just this week you've done that. You went on a special report with Brett. You went on Anderson Cooper. You're here with me. I advise you to keep doing that because it's important that everybody hear your message and understand this is about, as you said, humanity. This isn't even about United States versus China. It's about humans versus this alien being that we are creating though, unlike an actual alien that might come down to Earth wanting to kill us all. We're creating this monster. And what you're saying is we don't have to. We can stop potentially, we think, from letting this technology which could cure cancer, transform it to something that could cure cancer and then kill us itself. But do you believe that? Is there time? I think definitely. You look at the statements of, say, Jacob Petroche, chief scientist at Open A.I. Look at public statements from people who are making real decisions. And they've all said they're open to regulation. They're open to slow down. I think the problem, it's probably not too difficult. There's a lot of people that have argued about this. But the actual problem of making these alien minds safe and doing it slowly isn't too difficult if we can approach it with sufficient rigor. And it's just this current race that's just very silly. It's almost like we're sleepwalking into the outcome. But I'm optimistic. People are all talking about it. It's, I think part of the reason this particular tweet blew up like crazy was because it was like just lace. And everyone was kind of starting to think about it. People at Open A.I. and Thropic are very keen to have some sort of agreement about mutually slowing down and not engaging in a city race. How old are you now? I'm 27. If nothing is done, how confident do you feel that you'll see your 50th birthday? Maybe 50%. Wow. Wow. That is genuinely scary. Because let me tell you something. We, they passed Obamacare, I think, in 2010. And we are now 16 years later, almost 17 years later. And they still haven't done the things either side to fix that nightmare that they said they do almost 17 years ago. Like they don't move quickly in the U.S. Congress or in government at all. So it really does have to come from the companies themselves. And yet all the heads of these companies are about to become trillionaires. And don't seem prepared to listen to you or others. They seem to want to line their own wallets and just sort of say, well, I'm sure that'll never happen. Am I wrong? I think they're going to be ready to listen. I think people don't want to die. Like I think it's going to be eventually pretty obvious. The question is, can we act soon enough? As you said, it's going to take time to ensure we do the right thing. The worry is, it's like, yeah, you just don't want to race too close to the brink before realizing it as it were. I mean, have you had any discussions with the Anthropic or OpenAI leadership about any of this? I've spoken with plenty of a high up anthropic researchers, not executives. And you know, they are worried, they are actually worried and they've been publicly worried. And they're they are varying levels of pessimism about the possibility of coordination. I think some people are very pessimistic. They're any coordination is going to happen. And I think we have to speed through. But I think there are a wide variety of opinions. And I think a lot, I'm hopeful that they'll become more optimistic that we can collectively, collectively coordinate. But I will say that they're scared. Like my friends at Anthropogon and OpenEI, many of them are actively worried about what the world would look like over the next couple of years. You know, they want they want external help to get them out of the race. How many people are working at these companies? Would it take a massive walk out? Is there any chance that there are other Jacobs who are, you know, in their late 20s and would like to have kids and have families who, you know, do you think more and more people are going to do what you did? I think there have already been people who are leaving to go and work at independent regulatory agencies from the main labs. They think they would rather devote their attention to the bodies that are doing the, the regulating. And I think that started a little while ago and it will only continue. And honestly, part of it is it's going to be easier in the future for people to move to move to different places as it becomes more more, more, more common thing. I think, yeah, people, no one had, like, rage quit quite as dramatically or I think a few had, but I would guess there'd be a few more rage quits in the future. Well, and is it true you gave up your anthropic stock before you quit? That is true. To be clear, I still have quite a lot of open-eye stocks. So I'm not like an angel here, but I did give up my anthropic stock before the vesting date. There was just an article in what was it, Yahoo, and it was entitled The Secret Escapes of Billionaires from Bunkers to Secure Compounds. And it was all about how the billionaire class is buying these underground bunkers and/or building that are going to be airtight, that are going to be off the grid to avoid exactly this kind of thing, this sort of existential event. So great, the billionaire class will build this all, they will get even richer off of it all. The rest of us plebs will be killed by the bots or some virus that the AI releases on us. And these guys will be in the underground bunker. But is there talk like that at these companies that the next option for humanity would be to go underground, to go to Mars to do something to get away from this thing we're building? Do people are buying gold, they're buying guns, they're buying land, they're like, and I don't think it's particularly revolutionary. I won't help in an extension scenario. I think they're also just worried about a lot of unrest, but there's people are actively worried. What kind of feedback have you gotten from people on the inside since you published or since you tweeted and then came doing the public rounds? So I think there's been a lot of public and private really positive feedback from Anthropic, which I think people should really pay attention to the fact that the people building this technology have reacted well to this. I've seen more tweets from people on safety at OpenEI as well, expressing somewhat similar views. I think in general, the feedback's been very positive. Obviously some disagree with the probabilities and the actual timeline. But they don't want to be in the race. That is just true. I mean, and they're saying it. Yeah, and it seems to me, if history is any guide, the only time that they will actually hit the pause button and try to stop it will be once it's too late. Once the killings begun, once they can see something actually catastrophic as underway, but what you're saying is it truly will be too late. That's like trying to stop the nukes when they're already in the air crossing the transatlantic skyway to annihilate the other countries. It's already mutually assured destruction at that point. There's the possibility of some smaller disaster on the way. Something like a hack of critical infrastructure, something that causes damage that would allow people to rally against potential things happening in the future. But I think this is a bit distracting because there's going to be crazy pros and cons for everyone off the AI rollout anyway. Like you said, there's all the short-term stuff of jobs, deepfakes online, general disruptions of what it means to be human, have human relationships, that sort of stuff feels like it's coming for all of us. I feel it coming. But I think that is separate from the big disaster, which you're right. Once the big disaster is in motion, it's already too late. I want to tell you that Anthropic did just issue a statement, wired reached out to them. It's pretty, it's not that telling, but this is what they've written. We have always been transparent that AI will bring both enormous benefits and unprecedented risks said and Anthropic spokesperson in a statement to wired, citing the company's previous work on AI safety methods such as mechanistic interpretability. This work, quote, is also why we believe the world would benefit from the industry, adopting a lawful, verifiable way to work together to pace how we release powerful models. And then wired points, so open AI did not return their request for comments, so no comment from them. So what are they saying? Anything at all there? Jacob, do you read anything in that that I haven't gleaned? It just seems pretty anodine and unhelpful. It is pretty anodine, but I do think the desire for verification, some mutually verified slowdown is real. And there are people working at the labs who are working on how to prove to each other that they're actually, you know, obeying the rules of the slowdown. And this will be one of the hardest things with China, I think, is we have to somehow prove that all the policies are like doing what they say. No one's sneakily trying to get a one-up in the back. But honestly, that technical work doesn't seem difficult compared to the political problem. Like, I think once the political will is there, there's all these people and AI's now who are happy to try and solve the problem of verification. I think the question is just kind of the political will to have such a weird international arrangement. Well, how do you, if, you know, if Anthropic comes to you and says Jacob, we want to elevate you to CEO. We're so inspired by what you've said here and your ethics. And your task is to continue the AI growing and its capabilities fostering things like a cure for pancreatic cancer, Alzheimer's, all the diseases that are plaguing us right now, which, you know, could potentially be within reach if we give these incredibly intelligent things these problems. Like, for example, they already, I read this morning, they already solved some math problem that no human has ever been able to solve. Like, they're actually, these AI's are making huge leaps and bounds and problem solving that humans have not been capable of reaching. So how would you get us to the place where we're curing the diseases, et cetera, but we are not at the point of superintelligence without quote alignment? Okay, I don't, I don't know the full answer. One thing I could try that I think is pretty good and definitely better than the current race is we make one more leap in progress on biology. You said with the math thing that's completely right, but already almost at the level of producing revolutionizing most areas of math of math. The same thing could be true by biology soon, and so that even without pushing the intelligence of the AI's too high, we could actually have big, big, big swarms of less intelligent AI's, but still like very good at biology. It may be even close to a human scientist and make them help us solve all sorts of biological problems, potentially self-cancer, without pushing to extreme levels of capability, some sort of intelligent cap on how smart the models get. This is one idea. I'm not sure this is the ideal idea. I think there's still a lot of reasons to then try and push further, but that's like a proposal that seems a lot better than racing ahead. How are we making them smarter? What is it that we're doing that we need to stop doing? Yeah, so it's research is one thing, so that's kind of what I was doing. It's trying to look at the way we're currently growing these AI's and then tweak the recipe, like adjust it to make it a bit better, and that requires human intellectual labor. The second way we're doing it is we're getting more raw resources. We're building more data centers. We're getting more data, and we're throwing all that into our AI training. So the thing you'd have to do is take your biology AI's and say, okay, do not use these AI's to make themselves smarter. Don't push the research that makes these things too much smarter. Instead, just use them for a whole host of other tasks, and don't just build up the intelligence with the research. So they wouldn't be able to learn on their own if we stopped putting that input in? Yeah, maybe they could learn biology on their own, but you wouldn't want to use them in particular to do AI research, and you wouldn't want to continue with the AI research. But yes, you're right. You make it sound like it's almost kind of simple to stop them from getting to the super intelligence point. Honestly, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. Just like, don't do the research. A glimmer of hope. Are you going to sleep well tonight? Should we be up worrying, biting our nails, or what's your level of confidence we're going to take this on? Oh, that's a great question. I really don't know. I mean, I did just tweet this out in like some, it was mostly a kind of fit of peak. I didn't expect it to go this this viral and I don't have like great opinions about what's going to happen. I'm hopeful. I'm I'm pretty hopeful. Um, okay. And you're sleeping at night. You go to bed. You sleep your eight hours. You know, yeah, it's been a bit busy. It still exists on this earth happily. I hope so. May hours exist normally. Yeah. What do I use this as this changed your privilege of sleeping soundly. Um, it's been a dark week and this added to it, but I'm a generally hopeful optimistic person. So I'm going to place my bet on humanity. Thanks to you, Jacob Coxen. We have a better shot today than we did earlier this week. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. Wow. What a day. What a story. God bless us all. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show, No BS, No agenda and no fear. Today's episode was brought to you by Super Sure.