Relentless | EP 6 | The Confidante

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Some people never expected their lives to change in an instant. Most of us don't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it helps protect you. But what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So the people who love you aren't left searching. They're not guessing. They know where to start. Visit SaberRed.com slash betrayal. That's SaberRed.com slash betrayal. Word travels fast within the Wisconsin gay community. Most people are connected by a few degrees of separation. Paul's arrest was big news. It was obviously very juicy gossip and people were talking about it because, first of all, it's a gay community. We're going to talk about stuff like that. And it is just such a crazy, bonker story. That's Matt Rolsey. He and Paul were mutuals. They would see each other at bars and like each other's Facebook posts. But they weren't particularly close. So when someone texted Matt a picture of Paul's mugshot, he was a little curious. I probably reached out to him shortly after I found out. I did want to learn more about it. Matt messaged Paul asking what was going on. He didn't know what to expect or if Paul could even reply. As far as he knew, Paul might still be in jail. To Matt's surprise, Paul responded. You see, after Paul's arrest, he got out of jail on $5,000 bond. Now, a month later, Paul was out in the world awaiting trial. But he wasn't exactly Mr. Popular. So when Matt invited Paul over to his house, Paul gladly accepted. I was super shocked when he actually came over and just immediately started telling me everything. Matt didn't know it at the time, but what Paul was about to tell him would change the course of this entire case. The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two. It just doesn't, you didn't count it. But it's never going to make a podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season 6. Episode 6, Relentless. Matt lives on a quiet street in Milwaukee, with his husband and their dogs. Instead of asking Paul out for drinks, I just asked him to come over. By this point, Paul was pretty much blacklisted. Everyone knew what he'd done, and no one was giving him the time of day. Except for Matt. So it made sense that Paul wanted to talk. The two of them set a date for a random Wednesday in February. Paul made himself at home. He kicked off his shoes and took off his bomber jacket. Matt's two French bulldogs ran up and started playing with Paul. Hello. Would you like some wine? Sure, what kind of? Just Pinot Grigio. They opened the bottle Paul brought. Matt already had chips and salsa out on the kitchen island. It was all very casual. Paul and Matt just stood around in the kitchen. Matt's husband Dave was there too to say hello. They were all sipping drinks, petting the dogs. And then, Paul cut to the chase. Just one thing, and I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me. I don't even know where my phone is. I usually have my Apple watch on, but I don't know where that is. Positive? It's upstairs. I do know where it is. It is upstairs. And my phone is in my office. Okay. This was true. Matt didn't have any of his devices on him. But what he did have were home security cameras in every room. Our security cameras, they're very visible. But I had no reason to think that he would tell me anything at all. He'd half expected Paul to not want to talk about his case. But within minutes of getting to Matt's house, Paul started talking. Long story short, I. Fine. Yeah, I made some mistakes. I did some things I shouldn't have done that were mean and manipulative, whatever you want to call it. And it's not that I'm like, I'm not proud of it. It's just like, you know, I kind of freaked out a little. And, you know, I wasn't going to say that over Messenger, because there's a narrative that I have to abide by over anything that's typed, okay? Because I'm not pleading guilty. That's for fucking sure. Matt could not believe what he was hearing. Once he started spilling the beans, I was shocked. He could feel the presence of the camera in the corner of the room. Clearly, Paul didn't notice it. I didn't want him to realize what I was thinking, which was like, oh my God, this is major. He doesn't realize what he's doing right now. Matt's husband excused himself, and Matt and Paul decided to settle in. They took their snacks and wine into the living room, and they sat down on the couch. Paul faced Matt, unaware of the camera filming behind him. Hey, can I get it dark in here? I'll light some lights off. That's too dark. No, that's perfect. Do you want me to just tell you the whole story? The thing is, is this is like very calculated. Very sick. You didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make a podcast episode. Maybe I would have if I would have got away with all this. Seriously? Well, no, not literally. That's like extra great. No, I wouldn't kill anyone. In the moment, Matt just played along. The mindset I was in was just like, if he's going to tell me anything, I'm going to have to make him comfortable. But the whole night, Matt was thinking about the security camera in the corner of the room. Paul took Matt back to the very beginning. Long story short, I've known Carl since I was 20. When I met Carl, he was super overweight. That was before he got gastric sleeve surgery in 2020. He got gastric sleeve surgery? He did. He did a whole transformation. There was a reason Paul brought up Carl's weight. It was why he'd rejected Carl when they first met. We were good friends and he liked me, but I wasn't into him like that at the time. In Paul's mind, Carl was strictly friend-zoned. That was until 10 years later when Carl dropped 150 pounds. This was right around the time Paul's boyfriend Corey died and Carl broke up with Adam. The two of them were there for each other. And suddenly. Paul started to feel attracted to Carl. In the summer of 2022, they started hooking up. Before long, Paul wanted more. I was really, like, attracted to him. Like, we started fooling around, went to a couple Cubs games, took a lot of pictures. Then, fast forward, October, I told him, hey, I have feelings for you. What do you think about taking it to the next level? Like, are you interested in that? What are you looking for? Whatever. By this point, Carl didn't want to date Paul. He told him he wanted to stay friends. Obviously, I was, like, sad to hear that. But at the same time, I was like, well, okay, I can't hate you. It sounds like so far he's been very upfront and honest. He was. No, and he didn't do anything wrong. Paul was disappointed, but wasn't angry. He said he understood. Then, about a month later, something changed. November 9th of 2022, I remember the date. I get this call from him, and he's like, yeah, like, I didn't want to, like, make you feel bad or anything, but, like, I need to get this conversation over with. But, like, I made it official with this other person. That person was Drew. I'm really sorry, but you're still, like, my best friend, you know? And then I just was crying. Oh, yeah, that's true. I mean, when you have a crush on somebody, it is, like, the worst. I hate it. Yeah, no. It's not easy for anyone. The mistake I made, well, serious, but, like, I didn't give myself any kind of space or deal with it in a healthy way. Even though Carl didn't want a date, he was still invested in his friendship with Paul, which made Paul feel like maybe he still had a chance. So I was like, I'm going to sabotage this like you would never believe. Phase one of his plan was keeping Carl busy, so he didn't have as much time to see Drew. Book up his calendar. And we did a lot of things together throughout November, December, whatever. But as the months passed, Carl and Drew kept getting closer. I was just so irritated, and I was like, well, okay, I'm going to, like, do everything I can to get in the way. That's when Paul initiated phase two. This plan involved Carl's ex-boyfriend, Adam. I knew that Adam was in jail. He was nervous for Adam to get out of jail in a couple months. So this is all going on November, December 2022, and I knew, oh, it's only about three more months before Adam gets out of jail. Oh, he has a crazy ex-boyfriend. He's in the middle of developing a new relationship. Is he crazy or is he just a mess? Oh, both a little bit. And I was like, well, okay, this is interesting. I might as well exploit the fact that he's getting out of jail in a couple months and figure out a way to derail. This new relationship that Carl's in. And it'll be easy to, because I have, like, a kind of a crazy memory where I remembered certain, like, intimate details of their relationship. I knew certain things to say over, like, text and things like that. And I just, like, sent some messages where he totally thought Adam was trying to mess with the current relationship. He mentioned things like the Valentine's Day card, Adam sent Carl from jail, the story about Carl and Adam going to White Castle together, or even the infamous baseball hat. These were all things Carl told Paul in the months after his breakup. But the details were so small, Carl had forgotten he'd shared them. He could have never guessed that they would become Paul's ammunition. My whole goal was I wanted to drive the new guy, like, so crazy. But meanwhile, I still hung out with them a lot. And, like, I acted totally nice, like, sociopathically. That does sound extra fucked up. It was. Yes. But I was really good at it. I was like, oh, like, you're so sweet. Like, you're so much nicer than, like, Adam. And I even hung out with Drew when I won plenty of times. And I, like, completely, like, just turned it off and put on the act. And then I started getting to a point where I'd smooth their number, both of their numbers. And I would call, like, don't, you're going to judge me. I don't know. Never. I don't care. But, like, I would call tow trucks, plumbers, locksmiths. I even called the limo service. But then I called an emergency vet. So a pet ambulance showed up one night. And then a pet ambulance, whatever you want to call it. I've never even heard of a dog ambulance. How did you get a dog ambulance? I just told them to, like, get them to come out or whatever. But that was just one call. Okay. I tell you, three dogs, they don't just come. Let me just get more intense. So I want to tell you. Oh, thank you. So then I hired six people. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that. So this is really crazy. So I had a network. Almost circle back to that. I had a team of sick bitches. So I paid people to do numerous things over the course of the eight months. Like, I started the harassment pretty much right when Drew moved to Kenosha. It was six months into the relationship. They wanted to lie to themselves and fucking say that they aren't moving too fast, even though they are. So. Well, I could give some insight into that. I have real rage. Okay. Sorry, I do. I wouldn't, like, if I could have kept doing shit, I would have, like, put Vizine in his fucking stir fry. Wait, what does that do? Kills you. Oh. How did you know that? I Googled all that. Oh, my God. But, like, because I just want to fucking kill him. You heard his tone of voice shift when he started to talk about how much he hated Drew. Mm-hmm. It is a window to actual, genuine hatred. Yeah, I mean, he was pounding the couch in rage. In between bouts of, like, laughing about it, the way he's talking about this stuff, I just felt like he was absolutely out of control. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. For banking, that gives you more for what matters. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank. Members FDIC. Builder card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through OnePay at OnePay.com slash podcast. That's why they offer OnePay.com. There are over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything. From applying and financial aid to tutoring and career development. Get started at snhu.edu slash betrayal. That's snhu.edu slash betrayal. If you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance, you know how frustrating it can be. Long wait lists, no availability, or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all. That's why I'm excited to tell you about talkiatry. Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. Unlike therapy-only platforms, talkiatry connects you with licensed medical providers who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. Their 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers, and getting started is simple. Just complete a short online assessment, get matched with a clinician who fits your needs, and you can schedule your first appointment in days, not months. Plus, you'll continue seeing the same provider so your treatment can grow with you over time. Head to talkiatry.com slash betrayal to complete this short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's t-a-l-k-i-a-t-r-y dot com slash betrayal to get matched in minutes. Betrayal. TalkGuyatry.com slash betrayal. Time's Wirecutter's top pick four years in a row. This holiday season, save over 40% on kids' bikes. Plus, get $100 in free accessories. A lock, pump, bell, grips, and clamp. That's stocking stuffers covered. They have helmets and adult bikes, too, so the whole family can ride. Shop GuardianBikes.com. That's GuardianBikes.com. Matt invited Paul over. Curious what Paul might think. Tell him. But as the night went on, it became clear. The whole situation with Carl and Paul was so much darker than he'd ever imagined. Paul was obsessed. And there was only one thing getting between him and Carl. Carl's new boyfriend, Drew. Why are you so mad at this guy? Because I, like, just wanted Carl to myself. Okay, but don't be mad at this guy. I know, but he's so fucking ugly. You don't have to like him. No, not because he's ugly. But because of, like. He's an ugly and Carl has a fucking retarded decision. So, anyways, but I'll go on. So then, I hired people. Paul admitted he'd paid people to help him with the harassment. Remember that call to dispatch? The one where someone pretended to be Carl, saying Drew was hurting the dogs? I was wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was, like, caught hitting my dog. Paul had recruited someone to. make that call. And the date of it was very intentional. I had someone who I know has a drug problem. And I then mowed them money on their anniversary. November 4th of 2023, when they had been dating for a year or whatever. Because I was like, I don't want them to have fun. I don't want them to have a good anniversary show. I was like, I want to ruin their day. How do you know this guy? Just people in. hooked up with over the years. Okay. So, so I. This is getting classy. As Paul continued with his story, he opened a fresh bag of chips. So I called him, and I'm like, can you make a false police report for me on a spoof number with a voice changer? How much did you pay him for that? Only like 50 bucks. Oh, that's so sad, because he probably wanted the drugs, right? He wanted opiates. But I'm like, say that. This is Carl Bryan. My boyfriend, Andrew Condon, is choking my dogs and hitting my dogs and abusing them, and I want him removed from the property. This call became a smoking gun in the case against Adam, because everyone thought it sounded just like him. Even Carl believed it was him. But the similarity between Adam's voice and the caller's voice, that was a total coincidence. Also, what I lucked out with was the guy from Appleton that I told you about, the one that made the dogs report. He has, like, the exact same voice as fucking Adam. On the police report or whatever, it sounded exactly the same as Adam's voice. And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this. Then, Paul brought up an incident from September 2023, when someone called Drew's work and made fake child abuse allegations. I, um, I have a co-worker. And he was gay, and he flirted with me. But I hung out with him for the sole purpose of, like, this shit. I had him come over, didn't even fool around with him, didn't do anything, didn't pay him. I had him do a call to Carl's boyfriend, Drew, his work, because he works for QuickTruth in Kenosha. His location is right next to a high school. So I had him pose and, like, use a voice changer and pretend to be a parent. And I just, like, had him say, like, all this, like, crazy stuff. Like, I'm just worried because, one of your employees here, you know, picks up my son after school and leaves in a red car, and this is the license plate because I knew the license plate. So I had them do that and make a false claim. This incident tested Carl and Drew's relationship. But as you know, Drew's stuck by Carl. They continued reporting incidents to the police and keeping a low profile. Paul was pissed. I didn't like the fact that they were trying to, like, just be happy boyfriends and get back to their life. I think that's the root of this whole situation. Yeah, exactly. But then I was just like, I'll be damned if they're going to, like, be happy. The harassment wasn't breaking up Carl and Drew. So Paul decided to up the ante. This is when he started sending extortion messages. And eventually, messages that made it look like Carl was cheating on Drew. And by the way, in this next section, Paul refers to Drew only as Iowa, because that's where Drew's from. I wanted to paint the picture. I wanted to paint the picture to Iowa that Carl, the one I have a crush on, is cheating on him with not only me, but other people too. So what did that do with your relationship or friendship with Carl? Oh, it actually got better, because Iowa was believing all this stuff that I was doing. Wait, so how would that make your relationship with Carl better? Well, because he needed a shoulder to cry on, because, you know, Iowa. But wouldn't he put it together that you fabricated. No, because he was so brainwashed by that point that it was all Adam, because. Because of certain things that I did in the past and certain, like, connections that I made. So, then, finally, where I fucked up, okay, and I'll admit I was stupid. And for the very first time in this whole story, I paid one other person to make another report that Drew was unhinged and intoxicated and had, like, a knife. My boyfriend, Andrew Condon, has a knife. I have one. I spoke in the bathroom. The police searched, and, like, Drew was, like, naked in bed in the middle of the night. He had to work early, and, like, I just got satisfaction out of the fact that they, like, came in and searched Drew and were like, Drew, like, we need to come out and search you. And, like, he was so mad and everything, and I was just like, good, I'm ruining their night. There was a reason Paul chose that particular moment to take things further. I was mad that they had a good New Year's together. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, they don't deserve to be happy. By this point, Matt and Paul, had been talking for an hour. It was like all of this was just everyday gossip to Paul. He laid back on the couch and let one of the dogs curl up in his lap. He smiled and swirled his wine. Then, Matt decided to steer the conversation a bit more. So, I feel guilty saying this because I've never been to therapy. But are you in therapy? Yeah. Okay. Do you have a good therapist? Yeah, I mean, it's just, like, talking to you. You know, it's like talking to anyone. I can identify things about myself pretty well. It's just. Like, it feels too strong for you to be able to overcome and do it. Yeah, and I have a disconnect where when I have, like, jealousy, I'm kind of sociopathic about it, where it's like, it's just like any kind of moral compass or any kind of logic just sort of goes out the window where it's like, if it was legal to shove glass into, like, his boyfriend's eyes or something or paralyze him from the waist down, I would do it. And I would. I would just be like, hey, Matt, let's get dinner. Let's go to St. Tino's. What do you want? And maybe not that bad, but, like, you get the point. On the inside, Matt was stunned. But he kept his cool. He knew that was the only way to keep Paul talking. I understand it because I know you well and I don't know you super well, but I get that we're, like, that part of your brain which seems like if I'm going to be hurt, other people are going to be hurt. You're just all right. You're right. You explained that better than, like, anyone. Like, if someone pisses me off on level one, I want to punish them on level six. Yeah, you don't want to, like, your brain's not going to let that happen to Paul, you know. If it was legal, I'd paralyze him. Would you paralyze him before you put glass in his eyes? I wouldn't kill him. Yeah, but you see the glass in his eyes. The whole point of not killing him is if he's a sucker. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe say that out loud in a mirror. Mm-hmm. And you'll be like, oh, man. I have to say, you were masterful. It was a delicate dance that you were doing of keeping it casual, holding him to account when you're like, well, I don't feel like that's right. Like, I'm never really exactly fake with him. That's what was confusing to me, too, about why he would even tell me because I've never been particularly nice to him, but then he came in there, he was ready to tell me anyway. It's like he didn't comprehend the, like, serious, serious shit he was in. I did something wrong, I know. Right, right, no, and I know that you know that on paper, right? No, I know it emotionally, regardless of how I feel, okay? I realize and I acknowledge that someone doesn't deserve to pay the price just because they rejected me. I understand where that's hurtful. Thing is, you wanted this guy and you were hurting him, and I was relentless because I couldn't, Thank you. accept the reality of his decision i mean paul let's say you didn't get caught how long away it was like advising you know like how like that's what my mom said okay but like so you told her yeah but i knew i had to stop but what i would have done if i wouldn't have been caught i would have figured out a different way to be a better way maybe if the technology thing was over i would have bought drugs or something and i would have like crushed him up and put him in right in his car or like done something evil i was taking it to every extent right yeah right because i was relentless did your mom know about any of that like before you got arrested or did you just have to tell the whole fucking thing like after that yeah in the middle of their conversation as paul was confessing to serious crimes he paused to take out his phone he held up his phone and he was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die he pulled out a photo for matt to see this is me and carl at michael's wedding it's a cute picture then paul pulled up a photo of drew he's in the middle like look at him i still look better than he does i mean i'm not saying i'm perfect i'm not regardless why does it so let's just say this guy was ugly as shit it doesn't matter what the reason is you don't have to explain he likes sorry i'm not blaming you it's just like i don't know why you have this you have this like like itch to do it sorry you're charged with like felonies like you don't need me talking about how ugly this guy is fine fine fine it had now been several hours and matt was reaching a breaking point he was finally pushing back on paul and paul took notice you're making me feel worse because you're pointing out reality i made mistakes and i get it but this is like you're like yo-yoing between like the anger that i can see that you can't control and then giving me lip service is like i understand this is all fucked up but then but i'm still not over the joke but then you like yo-yo back you're being obsessive but like let me find pictures yeah because i can still feel both emotions at the same time yeah it's true like i believe you know it was wrong but i also believe you don't care i don't right but yeah you want to know why you want to know why i don't because of the fact that i it's not like i physically injured anyone i psychologically bullied them but who really cares because everything's so fucking great in his life because everything's just so peachy keen in his life it pisses me off that oh someone can just reject you but like you're just like you're just like you're just like you're just like have things going well in their life and like be on a mentally good track and have a boyfriend that's mentally fucking healthy and blah blah blah it's like i get really upset and i just get really no i'm not happy for you you don't have to be my stepdad said something that really resonated with me he's like are you sorry for what you did or are you sorry that you got caught i'm sorry that i got caught i'm sorry for what i did and i think you know that listen we're all trying to save for something for me i'd love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car it's always nice having something to look forward to and knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good but in reality it can be hard to actually save money but that's what's great about the one pay app it makes saving money easy first you earn three percent cash back on up to 150 you choose categories like walmart gas or dining and then get rewarded when you spend in those categories so you're going to be able to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put a little bit of money back in your pocket so you're rewarded for what you're already buying with high yield savings your money keeps growing so download the one pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters one pay is a financial technology company not a bank banking services provided by coastal community bank or lead bank members fdic cash back is earned as points go to onepay.com forward slash rewards dash terms for redemption options and additional details if you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance you know how frustrating it can be long wait lists no availability or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all that's why i'm excited to tell you about talkiatry talkiatry is a 100 percent online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations diagnoses and ongoing medication management for conditions like adhd anxiety depression and more unlike therapy only platforms talkiatry connects you with licensed medical providers who are willing to help you who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate their 800 plus clinicians are in network with major insurers and getting started is simple just complete a short online assessment get matched with a clinician who fits your needs and you can schedule your first appointment in days not months plus you'll continue seeing the same provider so your treatment can grow with you over time head to talkiatry.com betrayal to complete this short assessment you'll be able to find a psychiatrist who can help you with your and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes that's t-a-l-k-i-a-t-r-y.com slash betrayal to get matched in minutes talkiatry.com slash betrayal talkiatry.com slash betrayal quick break from the case if there's a kid on your gift list this year here's one you can close fast guardian is the number one kids bike on the market with over 1 million happy riders and the easiest way for kids to learn how to ride a bike they're lightweight and low to the ground with a wide wheelbase for balance so kids are riding in just 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fees extra see full terms at mint mobile.com it was now after 10 p.m paul and matt had been talking for nearly three hours matt remained on alert perched on the edge of the couch never taking his eyes off paul but paul made himself comfortable he was wrapped in a blanket curled up with matt's dog matt turned the conversation to paul's legal case let's break it down the fact of the matter is you're charged with felonies paul had been charged with three counts of felony stalking he also had a misdemeanor charge for making a false statement to police those charges meant he could face up to 11 years and three months in prison the goal is to get him either dropped down to misdemeanors or worst case if i'm charged with this stuff that it be a probationary thing i'm sure you'll just get probation yeah exactly really honestly probably what you need is probation i'm listening i personally i hope it's a long probation thanks paul you clearly need it okay like what else is gonna stop you i mean no i'm listening and again i'm sympathizing i feel like you're looking down on me well i am not charged with three felonies okay but you don't have to like i'm not looking but like but you can and you can tell me from an outsider looking in do you think it was horrible what i did and that's fine if you do i don't really care but like do you think let me answer it this way if that happened to you would you think it was horrible yeah i'd want to kill him you know yeah i get it you would think it's horrible so why are you asking me if i would think it was horrible i would think it was horrible i would think it was horrible i would just ask him of course it's horrible yeah you know what i feel the most guilty though about now and i'm being honest this isn't lip service what i actually feel really like was the most horrible thing that i did was the fact that i the phone call about trying to get him in trouble at work was just horrible he's referring to something he mentioned earlier the call to drew's job when he had someone make fake child abuse allegations to try to get drew fired - I still can't believe it. feel bad about like to me character wise like i actually feel bad why bad though like what makes you feel bad about that because that's really fucked up like to try to get someone fired from their job not the fact that you were trying to terrorize parents that like thought maybe their kids could be getting picked up they probably went to like soccer practice two days later and forgot about it so i don't really i don't have kids but i can imagine i hate kids anyway um what would you do if like i come over sometime and like i bring like a side dish and like wine and then all of a sudden like i have like in my little like syringe like you see like my zine well we all know you're not gonna let us see a syringe which is also why i'll be pouring the drink drinks and also any wine you bring over must be sealed oh my god because you're fucking crazy i mean as paul spoke he kept calmly petting one of matt's dogs can i ever watch the dogs mm-hmm i will put vising in you because you can't break my heart because you're a punk you i mean a dog could break your heart i don't want you to fall off the couch honey you know you're in good care oh yes he hugged the dog close and nuzzled his face but suddenly something pulled his focus oh man where's my phone i don't know why is that more evidence evidence yeah they probably got all they need they probably had all they need before they talked to you you're so mean oh my god i mean you really think i'm like terrible but i can tell you think i'm bad oh i know you do look at me when i say this yes anyone would think all that shit you did wasn't good at least we're all alive here there was no vising there was no and look that's legitimately positive yeah i mean we were a step away if you didn't catch that let me repeat it paul said they were a step away from vising being involved then he immediately brushed it off as a joke i asked matt about this moment the way that he speaks about vising what do you make of that it was one of the things that night that made it a lot more serious for me and like i don't know if that's something he'd actually do but he brings it up multiple times and then like laughed about it that part of the conversation it was definitely put me on a higher alert and made me feel like oh this could be even more serious than all the stuff he was already doing i was like super scared at what point are you like this person just needs to get out of my house for as scared as i was i realized how valuable this could be for justice and i was going to let him stay there for as long as he was willing to talk but around the four hour mark the night began to wind down either way matt keep this conversation between us i mean what am i going to say that people don't already think well no but this is actually serious because like do you please do not keep this between us keep the things that you're about my whole case situation between us why is it like a thing that you have to like gossip about me someone we know got arrested and it is very juicy paul if somebody you knew got arrested you wouldn't just not talk about it mad ass paul if someone asked him what they talked about what should he say paul was prepared i have a good answer so but will you lie though if this lie is believable yeah it is so you've never met russell or yeah you did you did i don't remember anybody who was he's in that job how is this russell person involved in the lie well because he was one of the people i hired so you can say that russell because he's like into a lot of it stuff whatever and without talking about any of the other stuff i told you or people i without talking about any other details just say according to paul russell spoofed his ip address wait so am i like implicating somebody i've already had someone else do that for me i don't want to well yeah but you know what you know you're not implicating someone like you said yeah you're not doing that you're not saying you believe me you could even like joke or you could even like talk shit like you probably will hopefully the jury buys that soon after this the jury buys that soon after this paul headed home in the recording paul headed home in the recording you can see him walking away smiling you can see him walking away smiling as if this were the end of any other as if this were the end of any other casual hang casual hang we'll get together again soon yeah we'll get together again soon yeah russell two l's one s better russell two l's one s better thanks for coming thanks as paul left matt's husband dave came as paul left matt's husband dave came upstairs dave had no idea what had upstairs dave had no idea what had been discussed that night been discussed that night what details paul had shared i was what details paul had shared i was exhausted exhausted i couldn't tell him but matt didn't need i couldn't tell him but matt didn't need to to because they had everything on video dave because they had everything on video dave could watch the entire evening back could watch the entire evening back so when matt went to bed so when matt went to bed he stayed up all night watching the entire he stayed up all night watching the entire four and a half hours four and a half hours and in watching the video dave could see and in watching the video dave could see that every moment of matt and paul's that every moment of matt and paul's conversation conversation was crystal clear we have was crystal clear we have everything everything on the next episode the confession tape on the next episode the confession tape on the next episode the confession tape becomes evidence becomes evidence becomes evidence is this the real paul with his mask off is this the real paul with his mask off is this the real paul with his mask off and i'm finally seeing him for the first and i'm finally seeing him for the first and i'm finally seeing him for the first time time time but if you think paul's crimes are over but if you think paul's crimes are over but if you think paul's crimes are over you're wrong paul asked them like how you're wrong paul asked them like how you're wrong paul asked them like how much would you charge to kill someone much would you charge to kill someone much would you charge to kill someone and joseph said so i told him well it and joseph said so i told him well it would be two hundred thousand dollars in would be two hundred thousand dollars in would be two hundred thousand dollars in gold coin if you would like to reach out to the if you would like to reach out to the if you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story betrayal story betrayal story email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com that is 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