Speaker 1how is the the live shows going in generation woman yeah so we have our four-year anniversary
Speaker 2in october it sells out like two weeks in advance now really amazing so we're already 50 sold for
Speaker 1our july show what do you attribute that to like word of mouth marketing both uh neither uh well
Speaker 2word of mouth uh no marketing we don't do any i was gonna say um it's mainly i also think it's like sticking it out you know how people say like three like businesses and things like that like you have to like just not give up like we definitely had a moment where we were like is this what we want to be doing like is it landing the way we're wanting it to like it's a real push sometimes and then you know in those moments we then went and it was like our smallest show but it had the biggest impact and we were like we're we're doing this we're not like people were just like thank you so much like you've changed this is so amazing there's all of this stuff and so we're like no we're gonna keep going and it basically at that moment when we were like it's not we were never about the money but it was really like we saw the impact even for a few people and we're just like no we'll keep going and then at that moment became like kind of that tsn turning point where we were suddenly selling out quickly people were coming to us wanting to be involved and so yeah it's always right before you're about to quit eh yeah there's like this um i had a coach once who like told me that there's this like the like cycle of it and and then basically you hit that point and then it starts to go up but you have to hit that point whereas most people hit that point and then find something else to do and they just keep doing that one two three one two three instead of hitting that three deciding to keep going and that's when it starts to go on the incline man and and recovery
Speaker 1is so like that too but you're giving me goosebumps as you're talking about that because like i'm experiencing that with my podcast and um i've had a recent sort of jump in in people too i love love love the fact that you're measuring success off of impact yeah and measuring success
Speaker 2messages well i assume that's why you started doing this right it's like if i start to make money great if you know if there's i don't want to be in the hole necessarily but the impact
Speaker 1is really important i think and and i heard someone once say it's it's sort of he measures his success of his podcast off the length of the messages he was getting and he started to get some like paragraphs of people taking their time to say exactly what you just said absolutely
Speaker 2and in the recovery space i think that there's a lot of need for um non-anonymity i guess i would call it um because for me my service is being a sober person out and open in the world about my addiction and about struggling and about being in recovery too so i do think that there's um people want to hear it like i listen i listen to like all of your people i do want sometimes i'm like where are the long timers and i think that's what gen women is about too kind of where i'm like we're so happy to and not this isn't you it's also probably the people who are coming to you as well tend to be younger newer to recovery um but there's something about the like old timers or in the gen women case the like 60s plus that we don't hear from as often and they actually sometimes have the deepest message but they think no one wants to hear from them oh i have nothing oh gosh
Speaker 1that that and there's also i think a humility piece to it too where it's like i don't i'm i'm okay i don't necessarily need to broadcast my message out to people at least for my case um i'm happy you brought that up because for me the the and and it's something i've been thinking a lot about there's people that pop into my head all the time and it's always always always always fear that keeps me back from asking my sponsors you know my mentor is a good example of that i'm i'm afraid to ask him to come on i don't know why but it's like i don't i don't think i it's it's like when you need to call somebody in recovery like they don't want you just said they don't want to hear from me they don't want to come on my podcast my stupid little podcast it's like all that fear that just it's it's like on repeat in my head if left unchecked right um but yeah it's something that i want to do because uh i think we need both both messages right the long term and yeah i mean you you qualify as a long do i i don't know
Speaker 2that's crazy to think so okay first of all i want to hear from you because i think you're a great
Speaker 1first uh tell us what generation woman is you know give us the elevator pitch so people like
Speaker 2what the fuck are they talking about yeah okay so generation women is a live show that we do here in canada my producing partner kirsten and i she's also my best friend we were on the show with you previously kind of talking about our journey as um me and active addiction and our friendship and what it looked like after and we do this show here um five times a year in toronto that is inviting six different decades to come and share a personal story on a similar or a you know on the same topic and it can be uh your interpretation of the topic as well so sometimes people don't identify with the topic and their story becomes that so for example july's show is uh bad decisions i love this one great stories right and we keep it light in the summer so that is the intent of it but it's funny because you know when i take back my will and we try to like maneuver it we did like a wet hot summer show and it ended up being one of our most almost intense as far as the topics and we thought it was going to be like all these sexy stories so you really don't know what you're going to get either so you know you think it's going to be funny stories maybe or like really bad decisions but like sometimes it could be a decision that seemed bad that turned into a great story um and so we invite these women from the six different decades or a non-binary person to come and share a personal story so team 20s which is someone in their 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s plus we say so um yeah and we do that show it's our passion project on the side we both uh have our full-time jobs and single moms yeah yeah it's really just something we really love and i it was inspired by my recovery journey to be honest because so many women of all ages were helping me and by sharing stories about addiction recovery sobriety how to be sober in this world and i saw that that wasn't really happening in you know out in the real world where you would never look to like oh let me ask my grandmother for advice or let me ask my you know teenage niece for advice but really there's knowledge and learning across all of the decades so yeah so that's kind of the elevator pitch for gen women
Speaker 1love it i see it becoming a full-time thing for you i don't know it just yeah it just seems like one of those things i mean
Speaker 2i don't even know if i want like maybe yeah it's just there's yeah that would be amazing i love it it is so fulfilling our next show is going to be show number 18 and um the amount of amazing connections and people i've made like it really is not dissimilar from being in a recovery meeting
Speaker 1in my opinion it's like a warm hug sort of pulling the energy from other people
Speaker 2and then applying and sharing the stories you know some things we've added in recently is that we invite the audience to anonymously submit their own little like one or two sentences for their own take on the on the topic so in july show we will be asking them like what is your bad decision great story and then you read it and then i read them yeah in between oh in between those in the between the storytellers yeah so it's kind of nice because it happens organically right if you're coming to the show and that's the topic you're already going to be thinking about it right you're already like what is my i've made quite a few bad decisions and they're all you know when you tell them they're all a great story right it's not so much that it's tied up in a bow like here's the happy ending a lot of our stories in recovery are hilarious once you have some sobriety they're some of the worst things we've ever done and the worst decisions we've ever made and then we take it and spin it into something that makes someone else feel like it's possible it becomes your greatest asset a thousand percent it's such a gift to be able i always say i take my shit and i spin it into gold
Speaker 1i like that so on that note um tell us let's walk it back a bit tell us uh how you know your last 30 days of drinking using and then bring us to what that looked like for the audience and then bring
Speaker 2us to that last day sometimes it's hard for me to decide which ones because i had one relapse so in 2011 i i sought treatment um and not treatment like in the traditional sense i was like something is wrong and i need help um and then i was like i'm gonna have to do something else and i'm gonna have to do something else um now i would say it was like a moment of clarity or a god shot where i was just like this is not going well um and it was challenging to reconcile that because my career was really successful i was on the rise i just you know was a girl who really liked everything to the extreme and and i was quite proud of myself for that um it was like a two-week bender that involved a job that i had to do and i was like i'm gonna have to do something else and i'm gonna John Bon Jovi concert, Super Bowl. like partying with employees just it was I had a dog at the time my dog was actually my first consequence because I was 27 and everyone else was kind of acting the way I was acting so it was again hard to consider that perhaps I might have a problem even though I hated myself and how I felt inside was horrendous but I look like everybody else right and so in those moments it was hard to be like could I have a problem I often say like if you're wondering if you have a problem with substances you probably do because most normal people are never wondering if they have a problem right if you're questioning it the likelihood is is that there's something to be looked at there do you need to go to rehab maybe not but do you need to consider you know how you are in relation to these substances how you're using them like what emotions might be driving them um so yeah I woke up from a blackout I had a dog that I loved dearly that I hadn't been home for a few days they had gone to the bathroom all over the house and I came back passed out didn't notice that she was bleeding and what happened subsequently was like I had to take her to the vet have like this emergency procedure done she had ruptured one of her anal glands was essentially what had happened and
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Speaker 2I was like I love this dog she was like even to think of her now she's she we put her down in 2019 so just before the pandemic and um she got me sober and my living amends to the dog was that I um had my children with her and she was not a friendly dog she really only cared about me and I had to keep the kids separate from her but I kind of was like I traumatized you and I bought her when I was drunk and um had no no reason to be getting a dog at that point um but you know bad decision great story it's like getting that dog but that dog got me sober my parents still say like that dog was meant to like be with me so that was my first uh foray into the world and I'm into recovery so that's what it looked like it was I was strung out I'd been doing a lot of drugs as well as drinking every day and I just didn't want to live like that anymore and I told someone that was one of the keys I'd never considered um stopping or even much about whether it was a problem um but in that moment I was dating someone at the time and I called him and was like I think I have a problem and he was like yeah you really do and so I was like I don't know I don't know suddenly I was accountable right because before I was on my own I lived on my own the dog thing was part of it but I like hadn't really um told anyone this so now I was like oh well I guess I have to see this through now and so that was my journey into 12-step program but it becomes real
Speaker 1though at that point yeah right oh yeah you said it out loud it's a real thing when you say it and then you start to think oh man like I gotta do something about this now or it's just kind of
Speaker 2always there yeah well now I've told the deep dark secret that's what it felt like even though way holding me accountable I now felt like oh I told someone the truth what am I going to do with this now you know that hamster mind that's just running like now he's going to ask me what about this well if I drink it can't be like just it really was what drove me into recovery was that I actually um told somebody and um I looked up a meeting and there was one beside my house and that's where it started so I did 11 months and then I had a conversation in my mind where I was with the man I was dating at the time and that he was never going to want to be with someone who didn't drink and we were out one night he had known me for about um maybe like six months I think so he'd only known me sober and I met him when I was three months sober and so that night I drank and it was pretty low-key you know I just said oh I'm gonna drink and he was like really like I didn't are you sure and I was like yeah I overreacted and I was like I'm gonna drink and I reacted it's not a big deal you know all of the like lies we tell ourselves how much did you disclose to him at this point about your sobriety I was very honest actually because um when I came in the first time I was just so lost that I just was willing to do anything and everything I would say I took my people pleasing with me into that first 11 months where I thought I needed to do and be uh the mentor who was uh walking with me at the time and that was also part of the problem is that I wasn't being honest in that relationship about things that maybe weren't working for me or that um I didn't understand like I was just being a good girl I'm just going to be a good girl I'm going to do exactly what you tell me and do it perfectly and if I can't do it perfectly I'm doing it wrong um so I drank that night we went back home and uh I was ready to like make calls and keep partying and he looked at me like no we're like going to bed and in that moment I was like oh shit like oh okay still took me eight months and in that time it was like I'm not going to do drugs now I'm doing drugs I'm not going to be um you know lying I'm not you know I'm not going to day drink I'm not all of these things and I'm like in living in suburbia throwing up on the neighbor's lawns like tripping out of taxis just belligerent you know it's good and it's okay until it's not and and so that's what that looked like and I would say the insanity was way more present after that relapse because now I'm trying to control it I didn't really try before I would have these moments where I'm like I'm going to take it easy and uh afterwards I would often remember being like why did not why did I even say I was going to take it easy whenever I say I'm going to take it easy it's 10 times worse I should have just been like we're going to be and um this time you know when I came back with the recovery that stuck um I was like counting drinks I was sneaking drinks I was trying to like like mathematician like goodwill hunting the like okay you had three I had two when did I last okay you went to the back like just insane right trying to like manage it that um was making me crazy like it really felt more unmanageable and crazy then before it was like strung out junkie you know it was very different yeah the the head full of
Speaker 1recovery thing will it'll eat you up right yes like I had that same experience where when I went back out it was you know you you went once you experience the other side of the fence too you're
Speaker 2like oh man it's like way better over there yeah yeah and I only had 11 months right like I think that I don't know I see it obviously happen but it for me I'm I'm just like I couldn't I stand to watch that it does gratefully not feel like a solution necessarily it's an emotional solution I've never had the like desire removed because I think I will always want to not feel my feelings especially the uncomfortable ones and that's where I would go fuck it would be nice you know like becoming a mother in sobriety was probably I have said sometimes becoming a mother a sober mother was more challenging than getting sober I see how people you know I see how people you know you're burnt out you're sleep deprived you're trying to navigate relationships without sleep you know those hungry angry lonely tired are all activated and I don't have any sort of crutch that like everyday people have like I could see how it would just feel nice to just like tone it down for a second with like your glass of wine or whatever but that's never what it looked like for me and so I just have to you know look at that whole story right never did it look like that did it look like one and it quieted things down and everything was good maybe the first time and then I chased that for the rest of you know my drinking career yeah but yeah no that's I'm
Speaker 1really I love the fact that you've narrowed down that that conversation in your head like if I'm just going back a bit here that that led you to that drink with that guy yeah I knew in my head like you knew that he wasn't gonna be with a person that was sober oh yeah it's so interesting to me how
Speaker 2yeah I get that yeah oh it was like a and it felt like a long conversation not like something said in passing like it was something I deeply felt and believed that we had talked about which we had not at all wild yeah and uh then I took a hostage right because now I'm like he's like I'm a totally different person um and you know they say you shouldn't date in your first year of recovery I tell people all the time I'm a cautionary tale I did not know the woman that I was going to become I did not know what I wanted who I was until I was five years sober so they're being gracious saying one year I would agree I'm like when I hit five years I was like okay I have a an idea of what I'm looking for and who I want and what I'm looking for in partnership and at that point I had two kids and uh it was tricky we were always behind the mark because what worked when I was three months sober the first time when I was five years sober didn't quite fit anymore so how did
Speaker 1you how did you navigate those times in early motherhood and staying sober how'd you get through
Speaker 2that thankfully I had another uh friend who was sober my first like friend in recovery I would say and she had her baby her first child right around the time that I did as well and so we navigated it together um it was hard because I was still only about two and a half years sober when I had my first uh baby and I like everything was out of whack like I had just learned to kind of start start taking care of myself and then I threw in this you know tiny human that needed to be prioritized and I had to navigate what that was going to look like right because again I'm this like perfect good girl who's of service and doing all of the things and now suddenly I might have a baby that has a fever but anything I put before my recovery I'm going to lose um I'm told I don't really um believe a lot of those things I'm not uh I think that my experience in 12-step programming is that there is what was written was written for men at the end of their lives like the back half not young women at the front half and uh I found a couple of other women you know I think there were a lot of you know quote-unquote drunk moms like people who got sober because of their kids or during or at some point but there weren't a lot of young women becoming mothers in sobriety um because we lowered that bottom right so I think that's what I think was written for men at the end of their lives like um right where like more and more young people now there's tons right but at the time it was hard to find someone um to tell me how they did it and I was seeking it that actually brought me to my first home group where I made that first friend because I was so lost at the time my first five years or my first like three years in recovery were in the lgbtq spaces um so I didn't really have uh female friendships in recovery but once I was pregnant I was seeking those because I was very lost at the time with the emotions and the hormones and the and how do I be a mother and maintain my sobriety when I'm told that I you know a meeting is more important than my family is what I heard yeah right and that wasn't really true either right that's just what I heard in that like kind of good girl mentality of well I need to do this and somebody why said to me what could you do what can you do and that's how I got involved in like doing sober retreats and how I started looking at how I was of service in the world breaking my anonymity for people who can't you know I understand anonymity and I understand why it's in place because some people don't have the safety or the luxury to be open I did and I do and that's been a beautiful gift because there are a lot of people over the years I'm sure it happens for you you know you're out here talking about being a sober person in the world um people or family members reach out and they want to know what they could do or is there anything they can do is there a resource and that's been beautiful to be able to again take these like really shitty things and help someone else maybe get sobriety because I'm out there saying hey yeah I had a real problem and uh here's what I do to
Speaker 1stay sober I'm really interested in the priority thing because I I tend to to lean on the on your side of things where it's not so black and white all the time with and and yeah you'll you'll find corners and pockets of 12-step recovery that are very very rigid and then you'll find others that are sort of yeah more accepting and more I I want to say realistic to the times and to your point the perception is completely different you're exactly right like I hadn't even thought about that obviously right yeah um this was not written for a mom that was just just had a newborn like
Speaker 2nobody's even really like the stories over time starts to have some you know some of that rolled
Speaker 1into it um oh I lost my train of thought yeah like what is how does so how do you prioritize recovery but also I guess what I'm saying is like explain to the new mom or somebody that goes through something like that to me it seems like this it seems like recovery is sort of it takes priority um I don't even know what I'm trying to say yeah I I know it's
Speaker 2so confusing and I because you never want to be that person that tells you like don't listen to your sponsor don't listen to what people are telling you or don't you know don't hear the feedback do your own thing but there is a little bit of a like I had to learn what my recovery was going to look like and not what yours did and in being that person you will start to find other people and it's not that my way is the right way my way is just the right way for my recovery your way could be entirely different at that point in your life too yeah in that moment in that day right like one day at a time took on such a new meaning for me as time went on where it was like today this is what my recovery looks like this is what my spiritual connection looks like this is how I want to be in the world tomorrow it could be entirely different and they're both okay and it's allowed um it will allow you to still have recovery if you are taking care of yourself um and so I had to get okay with not being perfect and I had to really deepen my spiritual connection for me because I had to like listen to that voice that was driving sorry driving um my decisions you know like am I am I being truthful like let's say the baby has a fever and I tell my partner I'm really struggling I I need to go to a meeting like there's a way I could do it right or am I running from something like just like checking my motives I think in a lot of ways um and then also checking the situation right like a few summers ago we had this uh I coined this term like crazy sober because I had been a decade sober by that point and I was like I can make unique decisions that seem crazy but really they're grounded in my years of recovery and my years of um therapy and self-work that it might seem like a crazy decision to someone else but I am rooted and I know what I am doing and it's okay Ultra running shoes are all about
Speaker 3space the space to go further to feel better to do something you never thought possible in this space starts with Ultra fit unlike traditional running shoes Ultra fit gives toes more room to move naturally so every step is strong balanced and comfortable whatever you're lacing up for stay out there with Ultra shop now at ultrarunning.com that's a-l-t-r-a running.com my motive is clear yeah
Speaker 2I know what what my purpose is and I also know how to make mistakes I think we learn to fail um very differently as we come into recovery and that looks like okay I made that mistake do I need to apologize to someone do I need to remember this for next time is there a learning here not this like berating of self that I'm a piece of and that I just look what you did you know I think I make mistakes now I look at lateness right sometimes I'm late and when I show up I say sorry about that or you know I hope it's okay you know I might give you the heads up that I'm going to be late like whatever I need to do instead of in the past if I was late I'm stressing I'm speeding I'm I'm being crazy maybe I might cancel because I'm late because it feels like that's the the solution is to run from the problem instead of like meet it head-on and just be like sorry about that um so I just I think that it's been an interesting Journey and the fluidity I loved what you said about black and white like black and white thinking is my most favorite thing in the past and now I'm always telling myself like get into the gray get into the gray what does that look like it could be yes or no or it could be 25 other options in the gray right 25 people who get 25 other yes exactly
Speaker 1yeah open-mindedness it's open-mindedness right it's one of the house um yeah you know my mentor actually and this is interesting to me because I spent a lot of time thinking about how I relapse and why I relapse and I probably analyzed it too much I mean when I was I would say you relapse because you're an addict that's what we do that's what we do right and uh he always says it was it was the oh that you that most people he says most people when they relapse it's the open-mindedness that starts to fall away right i never thought about it that because i it was always for me was always honesty secrets secret secrets that was the thing yeah um i wasn't my motives were you know hiding over here i wasn't telling you about yeah but he said open-mindedness and i thought a lot about that it's it's yeah it's no no i'm right no thanks jen thanks for your opinion yeah thanks for your perspective here yeah this is this is the way and you just said it's like no hold on let me just what it could be this way it could be that way nothing scares me more than someone who's certain yeah i'm right my biggest problem today is i'm right somebody said that
Speaker 2once and i love it and i taught it taught me so much not just being in spaces where open-mindedness was encouraged to take that out into the world has given me so many gifts because i'm just like huh i wonder it's a curiosity too like i wonder what that is like and when someone tells me oh well that's why they're behaving that way i'm like you're right Do you really? Yeah, you know that. I was like, that's an interesting, like, why don't we ask them maybe and see what's going on or check in with them? Like, just having, I think of it as like fluidity, right? Like just having this fluidity around recovery has been the gift for me, right? And that's my recovery. For some people, the rigidity is so important, right? Because they needed that structure and that works for them. And that's how they live a healthy life as well. And power to them. I can see it and be like, that wouldn't work for me, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong or you should do it my way.
Speaker 1Yeah. Or you're, you're failing at recovery or you're a bad recovery person.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I'm like, I really have no opinion on anybody's recovery other than my own and maybe a person who might be helping me. But even then it feels like it would be a conversation like where I could say, Hey, this, I'm not sure I could do this thing or this doesn't work for me. Or what do you think about this language of how something is being presented? Like to me, that curiosity and then to have an open mind to receive their thoughts. Sometimes that's where like the magic is the most, right?
Speaker 1I learned so much from, I learned so much from things that I am sure are wrong. Like I'm sure this person's wrong about something and I keep hearing it over and over again. And it starts to, you start to see it more clear. You're like, actually, that's probably a better way to do it. I saved time. I did this, I did that. Maybe I'm wrong. Well, I'm removing the ego.
Speaker 2I go, like, Oh my, I go removing the ego from it. Right. To be like, well, could I be wrong here? Like, what is this? Like, have I explored this or is this another one of those conversations I'm having in my head about why this person might be behaving this way or why I'm feeling this way over the years? My recovery has never looked the same. It has always been changing and moving. And I think for me, that has been. Part of the gift, right? To not have this, like, well, this is what I did every day. Year one looks very different than coming up on year 14. Very different. Even, you know, my higher power or my God or my spirituality has significantly changed and I look forward to it changing again.
Speaker 1Yeah. Talk about that. Let's talk about that. What does spirituality look like to you today and what does it mean? How does it help you? How do you use it? What does your relationship look like?
Speaker 2Yeah. So. I always joke, it's not sky daddy.
Speaker 4I haven't heard that in a while. Thanks. Sky daddy. Yeah. Bearded.
Speaker 2But it was when I kind of came in, like I grew up in a religious family, not like aggressively so, but there was religion around. And it's, I was terrified in the beginning to even talk about it because I felt like if you talk about it, it's going to go away. Right. Like very superstitious. And spirituality to me is kind of paying attention to those weird things that happen. That's really what it is for me. So that might look like I was thinking, I have actually been thinking, I, I've been listening to the pod fairly religiously now. Like I listen to it weekly and I've had thoughts and opinions around like some of what people are talking about and like your interviewing skills in a positive way. Yeah. And I thought, oh, I wonder if that's a sign that I should reach out and go back on. And then we connected and you mentioned it.
Speaker 1I had already been having that thought.
Speaker 2Yeah. So that to me is spirituality. And the more that I pay attention to those, the more that I am undeniable of the energetic connection and things that go on in the world where I'm just like, how could I deny this? Absolutely. And the, and the fruits that come from just being quiet, like, you know, prayer. And meditation. What does that look like for me? Like, it does not look at all religious. It looks like trusting in how things are unfolding. So, you know, let's go back to that lateness. Maybe I'm meant to be late. Who knows? And when I show up and there's a parking spot right in front, I think to myself, I would have never got that parking spot, probably 10 minutes, if I was 10 minutes early. And here I am now on time. So if I can take that learning in these small moments of trusting. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. And so when I start trusting, when I start having that thing, life is unfolding that day, the way that it's meant to, I tend to get more gifts than when I start trying to control the situation. When I'm like, I'm going to be late. Oh my God, I need to like drive faster. I'm trying to text and send a message and be like, oh, I'm going to be late. And, and this or that, when I just get into acceptance, then I feel the most connected to the universe, to my experience. And when I follow those, you know, Gen Women allows me the opportunity to follow this a lot. Yeah. Get a download or feeling that happens when I meet somebody and I'm just like, hey, I think you should be a part of the show. And then, you know, when we were on, we were talking about Kirsten, right? Kirsten had that experience where someone was talking about needing a kidney that then prompted her to be like, huh, I don't need this other kidney. I've had tons of surgeries. I might as well explore this option that then leads her down this path that she then meets somebody that I'm connected with. Like just, that is so weird. Right. Right. And I love thinking of the energy or the God or the spirituality is magic. It's magic. Who doesn't want to believe in magic? If I can believe that there's magic out there and that there's maybe something more at play that I'm not privy to, you know, that's exciting. Who knows what's this, even the worst things such as being an addict can become one of my greatest assets or the thing that I'm most proud about in my life is that I got sober. Like that's a beautiful thing and that I can tell other people like, hey, if you struggle, like you can do it too. Here's what I did. It might not work for you if you don't, you know, I can only tell you what I did, but you could find other people through me talking about it. You could find other modalities. You know, I really, I saw it when I got sober answers. I wanted to know why was this working for so many people? And so I did a deep dive and research into. Many books, many different types of recovery. And I, what came for me and my recovery today is like, there's like four main things. One was mentorship, being able to have someone who has come before, who can tell me what they did and, you know, what was working for them. A spiritual connection, which could look like anything, being in nature, looking at the ocean and seeing something like that. That ocean is way bigger. Bigger than me, way powerful way. It could take me under, but I could also float on it. That's interesting, right? Is it, I don't necessarily have to drown in it, which is where my black and white thinking goes. I could swim or I could float or I could stand in it and that wouldn't knock me down. Like all of these different ways of looking at things, community, what is more powerful? You know, where I felt the strongest correlation to what it feels like when I'm in a 12 step meeting, a big one. When there's like, you know, maybe an ORC or some sort of a retreat, a sporting event where you have, especially in Europe where they limit your consumption, all of that energy of all of those people in your section, depending on where you are, is focused on that person's, that group's winning. And that's what it feels like to me to be in a, in a space with a bunch of people in recovery, because all of those people for that hour are, you know, they're not going to be able to do it. They're trying to not do their thing, whether they're one day, four days, 14 years, like in that hour, that energy is kind of all the same. We're all trying not to do that. Just the same way. Like everybody that was rooting for team Canada last night, we're all focusing in that energy. And so community became massive, um, uh, pillar in like what I found was keeping me sober, which was the, you know, community mentorship and a spiritual connection.
Speaker 1Was there a fourth one? Yeah.
Speaker 2So the fourth one is the steps. Um,
Speaker 1Housecleaning.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And I think that you can find that in many things and modalities from the past. Like the literature was not brand new idea. You can see the tenants that they pulled from ancient practices and beliefs. And they referenced some of them even in it, you know, around like seeking counsel and, and those taking a look at yourself and honest look at yourself. yourself, um, you see it in therapy, right? Like what, what is coming? up what is driving that what does it bring up in you like these practices are not uh they didn't
Speaker 1reinvent the wheel a spoiler alert nothing in this world is new no not really circulating energy you
Speaker 2can look at like a few things if you look at the computer right someone's going to argue ai no they just built on something that already existed right and so the same same is at play here they built on things that were already existed already existed made it palpable for the average person to comprehend and understand but they had the tenants right principles of that of mentorship of spirituality of an audit of self and community and then you can find those people and those you know when i got sober i was like fuck are all of my friends going to be sober when i'm like older because i would see these long timers that had like predominantly were only friends with those people now being where i'm at it's because the average person isn't doesn't have those four things and so i find it challenging to sit and listen to somebody who has not taken a look at their side of the street has not is running on self-will is completely isolated and not in community um it's hard to talk to them because i can't make them see it either right like i have to meet them where they are and where they are is there and a lot of people are like that but it's hard for me to like vibe with that type of a person so i can find it in yoga i can find it in buddhism i can find it in other you know i've explored refuge recovery i've been in she recovers um what other ones have i done recovery 2.0 for me it's a deepening my knowledge of myself my triggers my traumas my behavior patterns and that knowledge felt really empowering because when i was using i blocked all of that off and i had no idea who i was because i was so busy trying to be who i thought you needed me to be or wanted me to be and i just was like kind of lost all the time just being like what's going on why is everything chaotic and crazy and even though that doesn't mean that life is perfect now i can at least acknowledge through those four things what might be at play here like what's is this something that happened to me before and then that open-mindedness and curiosity to then explore it is like what has been my greatest gift i have received in recovery is like a knowledge of
Speaker 1myself yeah self-knowledge the and then yeah that was that was great thanks um i love what you said though it's it's not you know we don't have a monopoly on on getting better and growing at life you know these things have exist these principles behind all the steps being just it's just being a good person at the end of the day like being a kind human being helping others um you mentioned actually i want to talk about something because i i this happened to me last night i wanted to get this out uh because it was a beautiful experience you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was you mentioned what i got from all that by the way was
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Speaker 1spirituality is sort of this you know noticing i love how you said noticing all the odd sort of is it odd or is it god right the things that i normally am too busy or you write it off not noticing you're just like oh that's a coincidence whatever or it could be you know for this but this what it's more fun that way yes the magic where i'm
Speaker 2just like oh well last time i followed this random feeling this came out of it and so you
Speaker 1start building on that it becomes undeniable all of that to be said is like it's it's a shift in perception right like i'm looking at and i firmly believe i always say this alcoholism addiction is a disease of perception i have a narrow-minded way of looking at things it's always about you know the way i see it and i have blinders on is sort of my default yeah and um you know the last couple weeks i've been really in my head i've been really like just running on fear and praying like crazy and not sort of getting the relief that i'm looking for i go to my parents house last night watch the canada game with my dad which first of all let's look at it this way i didn't just go and watch the game with my dad my dad accepts me into his house again is happy to see me like like do you see this is the the shift in perception that i i have to really work at looking at because the way i see it is like i just went to watch the game yeah my dad is happy to see me he's not hiding his wallet anymore yeah he's not hiding his car keys and i forget about that right yeah i see my mom my mom comes home she gives me a really big hug and then she she holds me a little longer right and i'm like oh what's it you know immediately i'm like oh did you have a bad day like what's going on what's this about and she goes no no i just need to and she holds me and i she goes one of my friends in the al-anon community the the meetings that she goes to one of one of her friends her good friend's son passed away from this disease just the other day and i think it might have been a part of i don't know if you heard there's a big overdose in toronto a bad a bad batch that went through not even fentanyl this time i'm not saying that's what happened to this person but um it's it's it's happening all around us and in that moment you know i was i was grateful to be alive grateful but my point with all of this is all of that fear all of that self-pity all of that poor me all of that disturbedness just gone in a moment not forever right yeah yeah i know and you just get that shift in perception well
Speaker 2that's what i mean by that one day at a time took on a whole other meaning because it's like it's just today that that that that was removed by clearing my perspective and just like being really present doesn't mean that it's tomorrow and you know navigating even motherhood at that time like i would just be like okay what can i do today that's benefiting my recovery that is um accessible and sometimes it was not but i think that's what it's like to be able to get out of it and be able to get out of it and be able to get out of it and be able to get out of it and be able to get out of it nothing like i can't do anything um so i'm just going to do whatever it is like feed the baby change the baby put the baby to sleep and that like that's it next right thing yeah what do um
Speaker 1what does what does sort of uh what are your what is not what is uh unmanageability like for you today what's sort of coming up and you know for almost 14 you said yeah i'll be 14 in august
Speaker 2nice yeah um unmanageability i i think it's there i'm i'm coming out of a a very challenging time because i as i said i got into that relationship in early recovery and so we were together for a long time and we had two kids and and i was in my career you know they say don't change anything in your first year recovery i took that to heart and i didn't change anything for like 12 years and uh then i changed it it of course all at once so i left the career the marriage ended and um now i'm on my own again and it was challenging to like see who that person was and that's where that crazy sober kind of came in because i was like panicked of course i think changes are changes have happened i live alone like our kids are okay version of that yeah like who is this woman you know last time i was on my own i was 27 and not sober yet so now i'm 40 and i am like what does this look like who am i am i going you know the fear comes in am i going to drink am i going to use am i going to you know can i survive this um and so i think unmanageability is like anything that i am obsessively thinking about anything that i am trying to control i love that saying let go or be dragged because i can picture myself for whatever reason when i learned to water ski as a young young woman um they taught me everything except when you fall to let go so picture what that looks like right like a a torpedo underwater holding on to that thing right and and that's what i imagine when i am like you know holding on to this version of myself this belief this whatever you know this grievance this anything i can hold on to and i'm holding on like that and i'm just drowning essentially literally whereas if i just let go i'm gonna boy to the top and like be okay right but i if i'm there it's like not working and so like i think the unmanageability in my life previously was again like trying to be someone else not a accepting my creativity not accepting um what i'm looking for in partnership um looking at my friendships like are you filling me up are you draining me i was at a retreat recently and somebody said something and it's just like it's been haunting me it's i think the retreat was in may so it's still here if you were picking up a chip for your emotional recovery what are you getting where would you be at are you getting a 24-hour chip could you even get a week and the same way that when i got sober i wasn't going to the bar i wasn't hanging out with all of my old friends that i used with i had to make changes so if i want to prioritize my emotional sobriety i probably need to put myself in spaces and places that are are contributing to that not doing you know like not draining it not looking and so like yeah that has been you know kind of the what i think about at the end of the day is like was i doing stuff for myself was i doing you know what did i help others what what were my motives you know as i love to get busy i love to um hide from things that i need to be doing by like being of service and i think women in recovery do this like we can hide in service and be like look at us like we're just we're i have all these sponsees and i'm helping and i'm you know doing all this but you know i have a lot of people that i'm helping and i'm i haven't paid my bills maybe or i haven't opened my bills let's say i haven't um taking care of myself right like there have something that i'm starting to do now is like watch tv without my phone without guilt without like maybe i'll just rest maybe i'll just sit here and watch this show instead of being like oh i have three hours to myself i need to like go see this person do this person do this thing and be you know productive kind of like dispelling that myth of being a productivity being of uh purpose and and use and actually looking at what it might be like to relax as um self-care it's the striver's curse you know i i fall into that category too the
Speaker 1striver i always got to be progressing towards something i always got to be doing something yeah and being just alone with yourself is the hardest time for a lot of us right um i love that though it's it's so simple just taking care of self or or how how are you living right at home with your family or yeah i i think a lot of people can hide behind that i've certainly done it to hide behind that facade of look how good my service game is and you're not taking care of yourself or you're dying inside or you're not getting current and you're you know i always say like being current and connected are the two most important things in my life today you know it's one thing to connect with people it's another to
Speaker 2vulnerably share about what's going on yeah yeah tell the truth is my i have uh i predominantly attend online meetings and uh one of my sober sisters is always like tell your truth tell the truth and the truth is usually messy and painful and sometimes embarrassing but the people that i gravitate towards in my recovery are those people i want to hear from the person who's like here's what i did today that was crazy and i'm sober like over 20 years i'm acting like a one-year-old yes and you know i i people going through i was always astonished to hear someone like share about losses or things that they had gone through and here they were in a meeting right um even when i was going through my separation same thing right i was there i was sick of hearing myself talk about it but it was what was current and what was going on and what was most present at the time and as much as i didn't want to i i kept doing that and and then
Speaker 1i got to the other side and i'm 100 sure i don't even know and i'm sure that you helped people along the way probably yeah like you're
Speaker 2other people yeah and getting specific is so important yes yes and not just being like like some people will share and it's just like a whole bunch of slogans strung together right and i'm like did you even talk about anything right or are you telling the same thing over and over again recovery robot yeah i didn't that hasn't been helpful for me i'm on your i agree with you 100 like come in and tell me how you're like having an affair like you're doing crazy shit while sober because i think we're doing crazy shit while sober because i think we're human beings nobody's perfect we say it right in there like progress not perfection and so i more i'm like oh thank god right when someone comes in and they're like here's this crazy thing i'm like oh okay good i'm like not the only one who's still behaving this way because if everybody is telling that recovery robot story it's not going to help the people who aren't telling that story right somebody once said to me it's very important that i keep going to recovery spaces because otherwise the people that make me feel that i'm not a part of are the only people that people like me are going to meet so they need to hear from you who's going like i don't believe in that like i disagree or i don't like that reading or you know and it's not defiance it's just another person's opinions right and so i that comes to mind for me where i'll just be like i don't like that reading or you know and it's not defiance it's just another person's like i even though i haven't felt often that i fit because i didn't have a home group for a long time i didn't um have sponsees for a long time i just didn't have all these like tick boxes that i think some people were looking at and and i wasn't able to handle other people's opinions right if someone were to be like really you're only on this or you only have one sponsee or you whatever i would immediately think oh god i'm wrong you're right you i should be doing whatever you're doing and so what i kind of got was confidence confidence in my recovery and attracting the people that would be a part of that and being able to say hey yes aa is something that i use that helped me get sober but i also think there are tons of other ways to get sober tons of other ways to take care of yourself and um be healthy and happy it's not just this way and just this process and just the way that i i can only tell you what i did and maybe help you and if that doesn't work for you cool i really hope that you find someone who is able to help you or is able to provide whatever it is you might need to to stop feeling how you're feeling
Speaker 1yeah yeah i love it and at the end of the day it's like what you know am i obsessing over things am i am i running things by other people too um because i can i can spin any justify any story or rationalize anything in my mind um yeah everyone's everyone's program looks different and it's it's always going to be that way and it's probably always been that way but um it's not nothing is permanent you know you're you said it perfectly your your must-dos in recovery today are different
Speaker 2than they were before and even yesterday like it can change that quickly right and having an open mind to like i can think of things that people said they were doing to maintain their sobriety through storytelling that i was like i'm never doing that like that's insane and here i am like i will find myself on a on a prayer phone call with other women all over the world and there's no way i would have like if you told me what my recovery would look like you know in that that first year 2011 i would feel like you're insane like no or that i would you know be a single or that i would like just all of these things i could have never predicted the things that happened so how would i ever think today that i know the outcome of how something is going to go with certainty like this is how it's going to go i have been shown over and over and over again that i have no idea i have no idea what's good or bad or what's you know going to be a tsn turning point for me or not and that's exciting too there's magic in that to just be like let's see what today has in store and if i am in i call it flow when i'm in flow when like and it's always you know when we briefly talked about my spirituality it's never been huge moments it's always tiny little things that happen i just recently met someone um she actually came to gen women and then ended up being someone else who was also sober who then i was searching for someone for my team 70s who then she introduced like that domino effect is like for me the god and the more that i'm like i wonder what's going to come out of it you know i wonder what's going to happen later like all of that curiosity has brought me way more than when i'm like here's what's happening today i'm doing this and then this is going to happen and then that's going to happen and if you're not falling in line then you know it's not it's been a horrible day yeah right i i believe in manifestation because i see it so much more frequently in the reverse right oh it's going to be one of these days well yeah i'm going to have one of those days if i if that's what i think if i spill my coffee on myself and then i'm like oh great one of these days then i just you know the domino whereas if i'm just like oh i spill my coffee that sucks onward we go right it's like when you think something bad is going to happen it's going to happen you think about a red car you're going to
Speaker 3see red cars all day all day long yeah i love it um ultra running shoes are all about space the space to go further to feel better, to do something you never thought possible and this space starts with ultra fit unlike traditional running shoes ultra fit gives toes more room to move naturally so every step is strong balanced and comfortable whatever you're lacing up for stay out there with ultra shop now at ultrarunning.com that's a-l-t-r-a
Speaker 2running.com let's uh did i just render you speechless this is very exciting i mean it's
Speaker 1i i think uh there's just a lot coming up i've been i've been there's been my my head's been really loud lately and i've just been doing the next right thing and praying like crazy um is there different things that i could be doing yes you're doing the right thing you're doing the right thing you're doing the right thing But the beautiful thing, and this is why I love this podcast is because I always get opportunities. What am I going to learn today? That's what hit me out of all that is like, how about, how about this buddy? How about you just go into every situation you're supposed to go into, you ought to be doing and look for what can I, there's something here that I need to cherry pick and apply in my life.
Speaker 2Yeah. And the peace and serenity that comes from moving like that. Like, even when I think about, like, I worked in marketing for many, many years and people were always like, I just took 12 step into that, right? This like, well, you know, they'd be angry, like girls would be like fighting with each other. It's like, well, are you sure that's what she meant? Maybe you should just go say like, Hey, I noticed there was like a little bit of something there. Is everything okay? And people were just like shocked at the idea of like being honest or just like meeting that problem head on or being curious. Like, what do I have to pay attention to here? I don't even know that it's a learn. For me, it's like, what am I going to pay attention to here? And the more that I do that, the more that I like listen to that gut check or that, you know, go there, listen here, be in that moment. The blessings have been innumerous and just like undeniable.
Speaker 1Life is lived forward and understood in reverse, right? Like I'm not, it's not always getting it in the moment, but when I look back, it always makes sense in my experience. Yes.
Speaker 2Yeah. For sure. And it's, and it's never straight. Yeah. It's like it bounced here and there and went there and it's like, wow, what a, what a life to have lived. And that's not even just in recovery, right? I think that we have the gift of that type of way of thinking that's been gifted to us. And so we can show someone else by moving in that way. It's not that I'm going to get everyone sober, but if I can like maintain a, you know, like a levelheadedness in aggressive situations, if I can have empathy and compassion for people that are struggling or unhappy, like someone else sees that and that mob mentality shrinks, right? I think if I'm like, what's wrong with that person? And then they're like, yeah, I know. Whereas if I'm just like, I hope they're okay. That's, that seems stressful. You know, I think road rage is a perfect example of that. Road rage just feels like such a waste of energy. Misuse of imagination.
Speaker 4So true.
Speaker 2You could just, who knows? Like maybe they're, you know, that they're on rushing to the hospital for a reason, or maybe they're, somebody died or like, who knows? That person did not cut you off and get up going, I'm definitely going to go find Jen Baxendale out in the world and cut her off with my car. Like, no.
Speaker 4That's that perception thing, right?
Speaker 2It's like, no, that person, that person doesn't even, they might not even notice. Like, it's just, if I'm not the most important person in my world, that's, that's probably a good day. Right.
Speaker 1I, uh, my favorite thing is, um, when I see someone inactive road rage, it's, it's happening a lot lately to me, actually, where I haven't participated in any, like I've been really calm in my car, driving in Toronto, which is a gift and a blessing. It's, that's been one of the blessings out of all the things that are going on. That's been in check. But when I see that person really just, you can see the energy in them. I just simply say to myself, I'm like, whoa, I am happy. I'm not playing that role.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I don't have to play that role today. And then you just sort of, it's free. It's freeing. It's freeing.
Speaker 2Like, and when you take that way of living into as many circumstances, parenting, like you want to get humbled about things you cannot control, have some kids. Cause it is like, you cannot. And amends, like my greatest amends have been to my children as a sober woman to be like, Hey, mommy freaked out yesterday. And she shouldn't have done that. Right. What a gift to my inner child. You know, I grew up in the eighties, you know, you're going to cry. I'm going to give you something to cry about kind of mentality to then be this parent who goes like, Hey, I was wrong when I did that. And to gift that gift to then have humans that think it's okay to, to be wrong, to make a mistake, to not be perfect. Like that has been amazing.
Speaker 1A gift. Recovery is beautiful. If you look at it that way, right. It is beautiful. Where can we find generation women and, or.
Speaker 2So we are on social media on Instagram. So it's generation underscore women, underscore CA. And then we're at generationwomen.ca online as well. And we have, our tickets are on sale right now for July. So it's on Eventbrite. But if you go to the website, sign up for our newsletter is the best way to get informed about shows or participate or be a part of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1Nice. Thanks so much for coming down again.
Speaker 2Thank you for having me. It was great to chat.
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