Rehabilitation | EP 9 | Saskia's Story

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. You know the saying, knowledge is power? Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. That's why they offer over 200 online degree programs designed to help you reach your goals. Set yourself up for success or get ready to pivot into something new. No matter your program, you'll learn practical, career-focused skills you can use on the job. And don't worry, getting your degree online doesn't mean doing it alone. Southern New Hampshire University has some of the best student support in online education. From day one to graduation, you'll have friendly, knowledgeable people to help you with everything from applying and financial aid to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at snhu.edu. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free, with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman, Angela Geritana, Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald, and we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast, the improvised character comedy podcast, where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for. A panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. There is a corner of the criminal justice system that you won't find on court documents. It doesn't involve judges, prosecutors, juries. It doesn't even involve laws, really. It's called prison consulting. You might have heard about it on the news. Harvey Weinstein is preparing for prison. He recently hired a consultant who is helping guide him on what to expect. Bernie Madoff has hired a consultant. Bernie Madoff has hired a prison consultant. Actress Lori Loughlin has reportedly hired a prison consultant. Luigi Mangione. Martha Stewart. NFL player Michael Vick has hired a prison consultant. Will is new prison consultant. Tip the scales in his case. Prison consultants assist people who are facing time. Many of these consultants promote their services on YouTube and TikTok. Have you been indicted? Or you think you're gonna be indicted? You need someone who speaks inmates and institutions. So if you or a loved one that's been recently arrested, you can go ahead and text me. I'll be happy to help you in any way I can. For the right price, prison consultants will advise those facing time on how to get a lesser sentence or how to get out of jail early. They'll tell you what programs to join and what gangs to avoid. Many of these consultants have served time themselves, often for financial crimes or non-violent offenses. But what if the person didn't? Giving out that advice was a convicted rapist. What if they were someone like Mike Levengood? I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Season 5, Episode 9, Rehabilitation. For Saskia, this crime didn't just take an emotional toll. It devastated her financially, especially when it came to paying for her divorce. I'd always learned you'd never touch your 401k. Like, you always need three months of bills in the bank just in case of a rainy day. And I'd always lived by that. And I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this. I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000. And that was just for attorney's bills. Up to that point. In the end, the divorce cost her about $100,000. It's a financial hole she's still crawling out of. All of this got us thinking about Mike's financial status. How he's doing today, after this crime. So we did some digging. And what we found surprised us. By early 2021, Mike had served his sentence. He was released from jail and put on probation. One of the many standard conditions of probation is getting a job. And for Mike, that wouldn't be easy. Not only because of his conviction, but because of his resume. He was very smart. He had a master's degree. He was working as vice president of marketing for Bank of America. So, I mean, he made a good salary. It was more than a good salary. Before his conviction, he was making between $200,000 and $250,000 a year. He was an executive, and a good one. If you look at his LinkedIn recommendations, he was well-liked and respected. One recommendation reads, He's not only a tremendous professional, he's also a person of integrity, kindness, and old-school values. While another says, Mike is a top-notch professional and a pleasure to work with. Even during his sentencing hearing, and after pleading guilty to second-degree rape, a former colleague showed up to defend him. As long as I've known Mike, he's really always been an outstanding character. Helped people grow, mentoring, providing kindness and a good will towards people. Mike's just a gentle soul. It's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. The fact that someone can commit a disturbing personal crime. And people will still line up, to call them kind and gentle. Most sex offenders struggle to find any work after they get out. When they do, it's usually construction, waste management, or warehouse gigs. But Mike had a plan. In fact, he had it before he went to jail. During his sentencing hearing back in 2019, his lawyer shared that plan with the judge. He has started an LLC, so that he can provide consulting to businesses, using the information and knowledge that he had from his career, and hopefully not let the record be an impediment to some companies hiring him, because he can use the LLC. He'd used his expertise in banking and marketing to support himself financially. And by running that business through an LLC, his clients could work with him without the bad PR. Then in February of 2021, Mike got out of jail. And a month later, he filed a trade name application for a new company. But this company wasn't a business consulting firm. It was Smith & Good Associates. According to their legal business filing, Smith & Good is a consulting firm for individuals in the criminal justice system, which is just another way of saying prison consultants. We wanted to learn what this industry was all about. So we called up an expert. - My name is John. My name is John Fuller. I started my prison consulting business in 2004. - Like a lot of prison consultants, John has a criminal past. - I was sentenced to 10 years for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute. - He did time for drug and forgery charges. But since prison, John's built quite the career for himself. - I've worked primarily with white collar criminals, professional athletes, entertainers, mostly high profile, individuals. Multiple outlets say he coached Martha Stewart when she was heading to prison. He didn't comment on that. But no matter the client, his job is essentially the same. I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration, and any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post-incarceration. Every prison consultant offers different services. Some explain sentencing guidelines or strategize on getting their clients lesser sentences. They facilitate mock trials and, in some cases, assist in writing remorse letters to victims. Others focus on eliminating the unknowns of prison, what the food, the beds, the fellow inmates might be like. And they also explain those unknowns to family members who are scared for their lives. their loved one. But John is the first to admit there are a lot of unethical people in his industry. What 90% of these other prison consultants are doing, they'll make promises and tell you that they can save your life. In our reporting, we spoke to several prison consultants. Every one of them had something to say about the others. But John brought up a lot of interesting examples of how other consultants will say they can game the system to their clients' advantage. For instance, They'll lie and charge you $15,000, $20,000 and tell you as soon as you get to the prison, they can get them in a residential drug and alcohol program. You might be wondering, why would anyone who doesn't use drugs or alcohol pay $20,000 for addiction treatment? Well, John says it can be part of a larger strategy. Because if you can get into the residential drug and alcohol program, you can get 18 months to three years off your sentence. So of course, they're going to go that route. And this wise guy of a prison consultant says, we're going to lie and you're going to tell your probation officer that you do use drugs. You do use alcohol. As a matter of fact, go report next week with the smell of alcohol on your breath. And that's what's going to qualify you for the residential drug and alcohol program. A few years ago, a prison consultant pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Bureau of Prisons for running that exact scam. But John says that's not the only scam people in his industry are operating. These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people, saying you're not going to do any time. But if you don't pay me this 10, 15, 20, $25,000 within the next 36 hours, I can't help you. And the client is so scared that he's going to do it. Mike declined our request for comment. So we don't know how much Smith & Good charges or the specific strategies they use. But on their website, they do advertise a wide variety of services. They support clients in mitigating their sentences and prepping for their time behind bars. They also provide guidance on parole hearings and sex offender registry requirements. But there's one line that stands out to me on the Smith & Good homepage. I had my producer Trey read it. It's not for us to say whether Mike was rehabilitated while behind bars. But we can say that Mike had a plan for himself. Very soon after Mike got out of jail, he had a business name, address, and tax ID number. And on top of that, he found himself a business partner. His associate is a former Army Ranger with a criminal past of his own. But unlike Mike, he wasn't a sex offender. He was charged with murder. And when questioned by detectives, his story changed. And when questioned by detectives, three times. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start with her. They all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwanu. And I'm Lisi DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week, I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debrie, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun. If you like comedy and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess! I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you going to get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know, bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were. Or if we tipped them or not. Come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama and music or TV shows or the Met Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where. It's a place where everyone can hang out. Anyone. Wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen out of character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2021, Saskia's ex-husband Mike Levengood started a prison consulting firm, Smith & Good Associates. He was the good in the business name, as in Levengood. And the Smith was Gary James Smith. Gary has experience with the system too, but his journey is a lot more complicated. We're going to take a detour into Gary's story because it brings up some very important questions about the kind of business Mike is operating. In 2006, Gary was a young veteran, an Army Ranger fresh out of the military. As a judge said of him at trial, There are many examples. In Mr. Smith's life, where he was a good person. He was a mentor to young soldiers. He was promoted to the rank. of sergeant fairly quickly, which is no easy task. He was assigned to a very responsible unit with a very important job in the defense of this country. But when good people do bad things, they have to be held accountable. He made a horribly bad decision. And in making that decision, it caused the life of another young man. That young man was 22-year-old Michael McQueen. He was also an army ranger, an intelligence analyst. He and Gary served several tours together in Afghanistan. When they came back to the U.S., they moved in together. McQueen's friends and family said he was excited to be home. He had plans to go to college, then law school, become a sports agent. But then. In the early morning hours of September 26, 2006, Michael McQueen was found dead. He had a gunshot wound to the head. His roommate, Gary Smith, was the one to call 911. You're about to hear that call. In it, Gary is distraught. The 911 operator could barely understand him. If you'd like, you can skip ahead 30 seconds. Where are you? Where's your address? What's the problem there? I can't hear what you're saying on your phone. Your roommate is dead? When the cops arrived, Gary remained inconsolable. He insisted he had nothing to do with McQueen's death. But the police, they didn't buy it. Because Gary was covered in McQueen's blood. And that wasn't all. Here's the prosecutor at trial. He's outside at this point, over the top, uncontrollably crying. But then one of the officers, one of the sergeants said, I know she was crying loudly, but there were no tears coming. And each time the authorities pressed Gary, he changed his story. During the investigation, he gave three very different versions of what happened that night. Story number one came the first time the police asked Gary what happened. He said he wasn't even home at the time of McQueen's death. They'd been out drinking, and Gary dropped McQueen at their apartment before running out for a quick errand. Here's Gary on the police interrogation tapes. He went upstairs. I said, I'm going to go pick up some clean socks. I drove over to my mother's house, grabbed a laundry basket full of clothes, put them in my car, turned around and went back to the house. I went upstairs, I opened the door. I saw Mike sitting in the chair, and I saw blood all over the place. Maybe it was a suicide. Or maybe someone killed McQueen. Gary offered a few possible theories of who could have done it. Some neighbors McQueen had argued with, or maybe a drug dealer in the building. Gary said when he found McQueen, there were no weapons nearby. He kept all of his guns at his mom's house. But later, he told officers something very different. Here's story number two. Mike was dead. My gun was in his hands. It was Gary's gun. He knew his fingerprints would be all over it. And he panicked. Grabbed his gun. After I realized he was dead, I put it in my pocket. I got back in my car. I drove to Litton-Ewood. I threw it underneath the bridge. I drove back to the house. Gary confessed that, before calling 911, he took the time to get rid of the weapon. He said he threw the gun in a lake. I was so scared. He was dead. He was dead. And it was my fault. I left that gun there. It was my gun. I didn't lock it up. Now, Gary was suddenly sure this had to be a suicide. And then, there was story number three. Also a suicide. But in this third account, Gary didn't come home to find McQueen dead. He was in the apartment when McQueen fired the gun. The prosecutor summarized this version for the court. He says he comes in. He put the gun on the floor. He was back in the bathroom. He came out, and Mike killed himself. And then, even in story three, he gives different versions of that. I put it on the table. I was here. I did see it. I didn't see it. I might have been close. I might not have been close. Three different stories and one dead man. And with each version, Gary moved a little closer to the scene. From nowhere near the apartment and no gun in sight, to finding the gun and throwing it in a lake, to being inside the apartment when his friend died. The problem with all three versions? None of them clearly lined up with the forensic evidence. And the interpretation of that evidence was heavily debated by both the prosecution and the defense. There was no confession. No eyewitness testimony. There was only this evidence and Gary Smith's word. And it's important to say here, Gary Smith is white. Michael McQueen was black. After nine years of proceedings and two separate appeals, Gary Smith finally entered what's known as an Alford plea. An Alford plea is essentially a guilty plea, where you say that, I'm not saying that I did it, but I acknowledge that there's sufficient evidence in order to find me guilty. That's Max Frizzalone, a defense attorney in Maryland and the founder of Frizzwood's Criminal Defense. So you have somebody who spent years in jail. The state has put on multiple criminal trials, subpoenaed numerous witnesses who have testified multiple times under oath. And so sort of the whole entire goal of an Alford plea is that the person's found guilty, but the person themselves doesn't have to say it. But ultimately, it is a conviction. An Alford plea is a compromise. The state still gets a conviction, but the defendant gets the ability to maintain their innocence. Plus, as part of the plea, Gary's legal team negotiated his charges down significantly. What was once a murder charge was now reckless endangerment, and he got sentenced to time served. In the end, Gary Smith's just six years behind bars. We reached out to Gary for comment, but he didn't respond to our call. The same goes for Michael McQueen's family. When Gary Smith was released, he also quickly got a job. He went to work for the very law firm that had defended him. He's even used in the firm's promotional materials. Hi, I'm Gary. I'm a law clerk here at the office of Jessica Moise. I serve six years in the law firm. I serve six years in prison. Before that, I was an Army Ranger. If you are a loved one who's been charged with a crime, please give our offices a call, and we'd love to help you. And I'm happy to say that Gary works for me full-time as a law clerk on all my homicide cases and my serious felony cases. That's Andrew Jezik, Gary's boss, speaking on his firm's YouTube channel. I'm proud of him, and I think we were able to show in the end that Gary was innocent, and that Gary deserved to get every break that he could. And now he's married, he's got a child, he's my law clerk, he's going to go to law school, and he's hopefully going to be my partner one day. If that voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard it before. Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future. And Mike, the great parts of him will continue and dominate for the rest of his life. Andrew Jezik was also Mike Levengood's defense attorney. He also didn't return our call. In many ways, Gary and Mike had a lot in common. Both of their cases ended in a mess of legal technicalities, and they were both convicted. But they each maintained their innocence, in spite of the judge's ruling. It's no wonder, then, that these two became partners, that they came together to help other people like them. On the Smith & Good site, they invite people to reach out and give them a call. So, I called him up, and surprisingly, he answered. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled, suicide. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. And we were babies. Oh my God. I'm Lexi Iwanu. That is wild. And I've always got something to say. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app. iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours? Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world. And we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes. Sometimes we even talk about just everyday money. Undane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had. Or the food we just ate that was surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Met Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. Because our opinion matters. And so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley. Author. Actor. Stand-up. Comedian. Creator. And host of Scam Goddess Podcast. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I also warn. I warn you and keep you safe against scammers. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess. By 2021, both Mike Levengood and Gary James Smith had served their sentences. And together, they've launched Smith & Good Associates, built on their experiences with and contacts within the criminal justice system. On the surface, their business is like any other consulting firm. They've got clean headshots and a polished website with a promise to help guide clients through a confusing time. But behind the branding, there's a convicted rapist and a man convicted in connection with the death of his friend. And both are charging money to consult criminal defendants. We've confirmed through legal documents that the firm's been employed by Jezik and Moise, the criminal defense firm Mike and Gary both used. On one hand, all of this is perfectly fine. Gary and Mike served their sentences. And there's nothing stopping them from creating a business like this. In fact, in the eyes of the justice system, it might even be a good thing. At some point, you do have to earn enough money to comply with probation, right? That's Max Frizzalone, the lawyer you heard from earlier. He's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode, that ex-cons are required to hold down a job as a criminal. And he's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode, that ex-cons are required to hold down a job as a criminal. For a lot of people who have been convicted of crimes, especially crimes of violence, sexual offenses, traditional employment might be impossible. You know, you're unlikely to get through a background check if you have a prior violent felony or, you know, you're a sex offender. So you might have to get creative about how to keep making money. And making money doesn't just benefit the offender. It benefits their families, who often suffer from the lack of income that comes with their relatives and incarceration. But the idea that ex-cons are now profiting from that past raises a lot of moral, ethical, and legal questions. One of the pitfalls and problems with the industry is your qualification for this job is the fact that you committed a crime. That's Trey Morgan, one of my producers. He's been reporting on crime for eight years now. And he did a lot of work. And he did a lot of the investigation for this episode. One of the biggest problems he sees with this industry is that there's no certification process to become a prison consultant. I mean, almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that this one, doesn't need oversight. A lot of these crimes are about control. And being a consultant puts you in a position of power. And then, there's the concern of people like Mike getting close with fellow criminals. Remember, Mike started this business immediately after getting out. For sex offenders like Mike and violent offenders like Gary, the Maryland Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services, they encourage limiting contact with other offenders. And the goal there is really, I mean, it's common sense, to reduce the risk of reoffending, especially right when you get out of jail or prison. Mike and Gary working together likely goes against that advice. So would Mike consulting other convicted felons while he was still on probation. Maybe there's a world where I could get past all of that. Mike and Gary did serve their time. They're technically free to do whatever they want to do and make money in most ways you could think of. But there's one thing I keep coming back to. What does this business mean for people like Michael McQueen and for Saskia? I talked to Trey about it. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's this entire industry built around helping criminal defendants, attending to their fears, their anxieties, their difficulties when there's someone like Saskia who has spent years fighting to get the proper care she needs. I just feel like we spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes. And as a culture, we don't give the same safeguards to victims. I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are an offender first society. Post conviction, our focus turns to the convicted to say, OK, well, they're serving their time. They're getting their life back together. And we start forgetting about the actual victim. When you go to Smith & Good's website, you see a lot about Mike and Gary's accolades. How Mike was a business exec at Fortune 500 companies and how Gary was an intelligence specialist in Afghanistan. Nowhere on the website do they make any acknowledgement of the details of the crimes they've been convicted of and the victims whose lives they've altered forever. And I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine. Saskia had no idea about Mike's business. She only found out about it from us once we started investigating for the podcast. I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people. And instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. He's like basically laughing at everything that he put me through. As for Michael McQueen, he will never know what Gary went on to do. He was long dead by the time Smith and Good began. But those who loved McQueen, his family, his friends, those he served with overseas, remain. As we said earlier, we tried contacting his mother for comment. She never replied to our messages. But we do have audio from Gary's final sentencing hearing in 2015 when McQueen's mother got up to give a victim impact statement, and we'd like to share what she had to say. There must be concern for victims and for my son, who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend. Whether or not it's called one thing, whether or not it's called mass slaughter, it is still murder. He killed an innocent young man who had everything to look forward to. And so I asked myself, where is the fairness for my son? Mike and Gary get to move on. Victims live with these crimes forever. I'll never be the same. I'll never be able to assume that because I'm a good person, that I'll get treated as one. It would be one thing for Mike to start a business like this if he'd made amends with Saskia. If he would have said, I'm a sex addict, and I will do anything I can to show you that I'm sorry, if he would have done anything in good faith. Then maybe Saskia would feel differently about all of it. But if his actions in the divorce trial are any indication, Mike's not trying to minimize harm. There was no regret, no accountability taken immediately. Right away, the only thing he cared about was saving his face. This question of accountability is one that comes up in many of our stories. But it's rare that we have a case where the perpetrator has built a career around his conviction and incarceration, which is one of the reasons we wanted to call Mike to ask him about this ourselves. So Trey rang him up. And surprisingly, he answered. I don't know what I imagined after listening to all the court audio and all of that, but he just sounded like a normal guy. You know, I introduced myself. I'm Trey. I'm a producer. We're doing a story about Saskia Inwood and wanted to talk to you about your business. And he paused for a second. And then Mike started asking Trey questions. Questions like, So you're a reporter. What's the angle of the story? And then he said something to the effect of, What does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia? His business is a result of serving time. And he served that time because of his relationship to Saskia. Trey laid this out for Mike. But at this point, Mike was done talking. He said he didn't want to comment on his business, his criminal trial, or his divorce case. So they ended the call. Afterwards, Trey sat there, frozen for a while, processing Mike's questions. What's the story here? What do his crimes, his personal life, have to do with his business? When he said that, I was caught off guard. Like, how do you answer that? On the final episode of Betrayal Season 5, we turn back to Saskia and her healing journey. I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me. Because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. But how can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that? For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our sub-channel, Substack, at Betrayal.substack.com. We are grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Trey Morgan and Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melchiorri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Voice acting by Stephanie Young and Tanner Robbins. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today, we tip our wrench to Rock Auto customer Dylan. I actually used to manage a parts department for a car dealership, and we would get stuff from Rock Auto if I couldn't get it from my dealership suppliers. You pick the year, you go through all the drop-down menus, and it just makes it really easy to navigate and see what you want, like a wheel bearing, for instance, for a Corvair that I have. Rock Auto's catalog made it really easy to find that specific one that I was looking for. All the parts your car will ever need, Rock Auto. And get ready for bed with Dr. Thiel's Magnesium Spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea Salt. Dr. Thiel's Magnesium Spray is designed to help you unwind and get in a nighttime state of mind. Dr. Thiel's Magnesium Spray is wellness you can feel, and you can find it in your local bath aisle. Dr. Thiel's. Yep, you needed that. This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream, to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about, keeping up with cyber threats. That's where Mastercard can help, with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business, priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's Mastercard. Learn more at Mastercard.com/smallbusiness. 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