Redefine Alcohol - the Groundbreaking WHO Europe Campaign

I am Mike Dünnbjör and this is the Alcohol Issues podcast and original production from Muvendi International. It's a show about latest alcohol policy developments, brand new research and stories that reveal the predatory practices of the alcohol industry. We bring you in-depth conversations with trailblazing alcohol policy makers, visionary community activists and leading scientists. We do it all to reshape how the world thinks about alcohol's impact on society and the benefits of alcohol policy action. In today's episode, we explore a groundbreaking new campaign launched by the World Health Organization in Europe. Together with Alexandra Olsen of WHO Europe, we are telling a story that might change how you think about the role of alcohol in society. I don't want to go 100 meters without encountering alcohol in some form of another and related to that also very marketed and very advertised. Alexandra is Communication Officer at WHO Europe. She's currently supporting the WHO EU evidence into action-algoal project. In this role, Alexandra works with Communication Planning and Strategy, Connections Activities, Social Media, PR and Media Relations. In today's show, I speak with Alexandra about WHO Europe's brand new campaign Redefine Alcohol. Actually, it's more than a campaign and Alexandra explains what that means. Very recently, WHO Europe has launched Redefine Alcohol to close the information gap concerning alcohol's true harm by sharing latest research on alcohol's health impacts and encouraging open discussions about the often overlooked harms. Redefine alcohol calls on Europeans to reflect on the role alcohol plays in their personal lives and in wider society, urging a reconsideration of alcohol's role in daily life, celebrations and traditions. We talk about why Redefine Alcohol is needed in Europe. That means we take a deep dive into the alcohol norm in Europe and how it limits both people and policy action. Alexandra shares the stories of Yolanda, Margarita and Cacher and why they have decided to get involved in Redefine Alcohol telling their own stories. And we also explore the different dimensions of Redefine Alcohol and Alexandra explains among other things, the environmental dimension of the campaign and why it matters for people that we create healthy environments for everyone. Hello, Alexandra and one welcome to the Alcohol Issues podcast. I'm really happy that we have the chance to talk today about the Redefine Alcohol campaign that you launched and established in Europe. I think last week, Alexandra, so one welcome, I'm looking forward. Hi, Mike. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me and you're absolutely correct. Yes, the Redefine Alcohol campaign launched on the 2nd of October. I have to tell you, we already discussed it in our membership. We have every Friday we need to discuss latest alcohol policy development, scientific developments. Many of our members are really excited about it. They are actually taking members that are not in the European region, they are taking. This is an example to approach their respective WHO regional committee to say we should have something similar in our region. So this is really cool. I think I have to be very disciplined not to ask too many questions, but this is really cool that we have this timely opportunity to discuss. Oh, that sounds great, I love to hear that feedback, that's very nice. And maybe we can just get started, like it's one of the things where I feel like I actually have so many questions, but what is the really fine alcohol campaign that WHO Europe launched as you said last week? So the Redefine Alcohol campaign is a digital communications campaign that is. It's going on on the WHO regional office for Europe's digital channels throughout October and November. It is also going on in some of the European countries, so nationally, because this campaign is a part of a project, an EU funded project called Evidaction, which covers 30 countries. So the EU member states, Iceland, Norway and Ukraine. And many of these countries are also using this campaign both digitally and in the form of some activities at their national level. So the campaign aims to get people thinking, reflecting about alcohol, about alcohol in their own lives, but also about the place of alcohol in our societies, in our populations. And as you mentioned, this campaign is led by the European office of WHO. And I think the reason for that is that particularly in Europe, alcohol is very normalized. It can often seem to be a part of the social fabric in Europe. And in these environments where alcohol in Europe can be very cheap, anecdotally, can be cheaper than water sometimes. Very available, so if you think of airports or shop counters, the best locations, city centers of European capitals, you won't be able to go 100 meters without encountering alcohol in some form of another. And related to that, also very marketed and very advertised. So in a society like this, we rarely get the chance to pause and reflect and think, "Is this product always necessary? Does it belong to some of these situations and moments that we have? Is it good for us individually? Is it good for society?" And this is what the redefined alcohol campaign calls people to reflect on. I'm listening to you and it's even a little bit emotional. I think this whole topic, I am from Germany, my wife is from Slovakia, I live in Sweden, we are European, so to say, and move into the international, we do lots of work. Right now, our vice president is at the WHO regional committee meeting for Southeast Asia last week, we were at the Pan American Health Organization's regional committee meeting, so we work across the world. But listening to you, describing my own experience, so to say, this kind of alcohol-genic environments, the football club that I played in, the presence of beer there, even though we had people who already overcame alcohol addiction issues and so on, and we never asked these questions that you raised now, whether it actually belongs, whether it benefits everyone who is there in an environment, and if it's good for us individually or at the society levels, I actually just wanted to share with you, I listen and I'm like, "Wow, this is my experience." So it's very powerful. And I think you're absolutely not alone, and I think, in fact, most of us, if we think about it, even if we ourselves have not been acutely and directly harmed by alcohol, can think of these situations where we find ourselves in an environment that either we realize later on that alcohol did not belong there, or we know someone who has been very harmed by alcohol and now struggles with recovery because it's so difficult to avoid in all these settings. I think. When we go about our life, we don't just stop to think about that, and in fact, our first reaction to hearing some facts from WHO talking about deaths and harms from alcohol can just cause a reaction of distance saying, "Well, this does not apply to me, but if you think a bit more about it, probably most of us would think of a story. That relates to alcohol." I think in Europe, it's very difficult to imagine that there is anyone who's not affected either, really in themselves, the immediate family or, I mean, we are living in a society, as you said, where alcohol is dominant. And I have lost friends that I went to school with. We are in the early 40s, late 30s, that's quite amazing. So I think this kind of pausing and reflecting that the really fine alcohol campaign is very powerful. I also like the two dimensions reflecting about the individual dimension, so which role does alcohol play in my life, does it benefit me, and what happens in my life, but also the environmental society dimension. I think we can come back to this. I wanted to ask also just to get us a little bit more into the topic. When I read the material, you write that really fine alcohol is more than a campaign. You have already explained that actually member states are engaged as the national dimension. You talked a little bit about the alcohol burden we are facing in Europe. Why is it needed, and why is it needed that it's more than a campaign? Why have you launched it now? Indeed, what we look at is that this is not just a communications campaign, it's a kind of call to action, and it's a call to action to, as I mentioned, to reflect, to rethink some of the things that have become status quo in particular in the European society. Why we think this is possible now, and this is a good idea now, is because we're actually seeing some movement, we're seeing some change in Europe. There's a growing movement of people and in particular younger people who are treating their bodies differently, are treating each other differently, are treating mental health differently, and the way we look at society and environment and sustainability. So they have a slightly different mindset to some of the previous generations, and one of the things that is a growing thing is the change in their relationship and their thinking about alcohol. This doesn't necessarily mean that young people are not drinking anymore at all, or they're completely giving up alcohol, but they're taking on this approach of curiosity, of reflection, and of being very conscious about when and in what context. And whether their choices are being influenced by something external, or this is actually their choice to consume a substance. On the one hand, there's that, there's a bit of a bubbling change, and both in some European communities, but also in the scientific communities, I think there are a lot more unified voices about alcohol consumption and alcohol harms. You may have seen the Lancet statement that came out at the beginning of this year from WHO Europe and collaborators about the fact that in particular for cancer, there is no safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think there are more and more scientific studies and more and more research that just shows the agreement of scientists that a lot more harms are caused than any possible benefits from consuming alcohol consumption. Also showing some of the benefits of reducing alcohol consumption, which I think is actually a very important focus of the campaign. So besides showing some of the harms, and sometimes some of the hidden harms from alcohol, the redefined alcohol campaign really looks at some of the benefits of reducing or quitting alcohol altogether. Which are at the individual level in terms of mental health and well-being, for example, of clarity and memory, all of these things that are linked to thriving and being happy essentially. But then also for prevention of chronic diseases, so cardiovascular diseases, cancers and longer term health, because in Europe as well as as you may know, people live long, they live long lives. So the quality of their life also becomes an important factor. So do you want the last 20 years to be with chronic diseases or do you want it to be a healthy life is a very big difference? I like the point you made about this younger generation that they have a different view of their own health. I think they have a different view of sustainability in general and how their behavior contributes to this. I think the climate crisis, but also corporate greed is very present in very many young people's minds. But also this again, a little bit more community dimension, how we treat each other. And it's really this point really stands out to me that you made this point as part of the redefined alcohol campaign because in the workshops that we do in the trainings that we do, this is one of the questions we ask. I like to be in communities where we feel welcome, where we feel included, where it's safe, and where we feel like our values, they're part of what we are doing. And then we put alcohol front and center, or we use to, and we don't create welcoming, inclusive communities. There's also at least one or maybe all of the videos you produced that you have part of the campaign, what it's showing. So I think we can come back to this. You mentioned some of the alcohol harm that we are facing in Europe. The burden is so high, cancer due to alcohol is so high here in Europe. What are some of the specific things that stand out to you or that inform the redefined alcohol campaign when it comes to to alcohol harm in our region? Yeah, I think I think three, three main things really stand out. I think both for me and we've happened to include them in the in the redefined alcohol campaign. So if that's a coincidence or not. But it's three main things. So I think the first one is cardiovascular diseases or heart diseases and alcohol. The reason I mentioned these is because in the WHO European region, the top cause of death due to alcohol are cardiovascular diseases. So in 2019, for example, the more people died from alcohol-related heart diseases than any other cause. And I think this is important because for years we have heard the narrative and many Europeans repeat this narrative that alcohol is very good for your health. And I think even if we take into account some scientifically documented protective effects on very certain specific heart conditions, I think when we look at the statistics and the deaths from alcohol-related heart diseases, We can see that the harms, the deaths, outweigh any form of benefits, and it goes back, I think, to the point that alcohol, when it gets into the body, it cannot be directed to a certain hard condition or a certain place in the body. It just goes ahead and harms where it reaches. So there's no way of controlling these effects and overall the harms for the heart outweigh any benefits. So cardiovascular diseases, that's one, I think, that was quite a new thing that I learned as well from the most recent WHO status report on alcohol. The second thing is cancers and here, especially if we zoom in on countries of the European Union, we see that suddenly the top cause of deaths from alcohol are cancers. So alcohol attributable cancers and in one year, we see up to 70,000 deaths from cancer just in the EU, which is due to alcohol. So it's only like alcohol attributable cancers in the EU. And this is especially alarming because its knowledge about this is very low. I think there are plenty of surveys and especially recent surveys about this out there, but I can just name one from that we did here at WHO Europe recently, which found that less than half of the surveyed respondents that we had from 14 countries knew that alcohol causes cancer at all. And there were large variations across the types of cancer, but awareness was especially low for breast cancer and alcohol, where only about 20% of respondents across these 14 countries knew that alcohol could cause breast cancer. And October is breast cancer awareness month. So I think raising awareness that alcohol is a completely preventable behavioral risk factor for breast cancer is very important. So cancer and this link to cancer is an important part of the harms that we highlight as part of the redefine alcohol campaign. And then finally, I think very, very importantly in globally and in Europe, I think it's mental health and it's this perception of alcohol as a coping mechanism, which actually acts often as quite the opposite. So so can fuel depression, can fuel anxiety and can can lead to this vicious circle, negative circle of mental health deterioration. So I think there that's also one of the one of the things where I I mentioned that we highlight the benefits of reducing alcohol consumption and it's something that is maybe one of the first things that I hear from someone who who has reduced even by a little bit their alcohol consumption, but especially by a lot or took a break from alcohol. I think one of the first things they say is is about their mental health. So feeling calmer, feeling more, more self aware, feeling this mental clarity that comes without consuming alcohol. And with this third element of harm that stands out to you and in the redefine alcohol campaign, you also cover world mental health, which is today. I think these are three really important conversation topics where I think also this redefine alcohol as a slogan, as a concept matters, I think, especially it's kind of unlearning what we've been conditioned to believe. Alcohol is good for the heart. I think it's really important what you are saying and no one would take a pill that causes cancer, but has maybe some good effect on some some condition. So it's kind of unlearning redefining, but also raising the awareness, it's shocking how low the levels of awareness is for breast cancer, for example. So thanks for sharing this because I think breast cancer and alcohol as alcohol contributes a lot right to breast cancer cases and deaths. Just just to say on that on on breast cancer as well, it does contribute contribute a lot. And I think with something that is specifically quite quite interesting with breast cancer and alcohol is it's a slightly different mechanism than some of the other cancers caused by alcohol. It happens through affecting the hormone levels in women. And research, especially emerging research shows that it really starts increasing the risk at low levels of drinking alcohol. So it's not only something that concerns heavy drinkers. It's really the risk really starts increasing from from lower levels and then just increase with the more you drink. And it also concerns or can affect women of of any age. So both premenopause and postmenopause women. So it is concerning and concerning that the information is is is not out there and is not in in the awareness of of people and you can often see even breast cancer awareness activities in some countries that involve alcohol and that glamorize alcohol. And there there's there's really a missing piece of of awareness and and having the possibility to to make informed choices about your cancer risk. I think this is an important point. I see this there's a huge potential in the redefine alcohol campaign in really redefining this whole conversation. So breast cancer is a really good example cancer in general. Our member organization in Sweden, they were part of developing a society wide campaign awareness campaign about alcohol and cancer where part of it is that actually in the treatment facility. So when healthcare professionals meet patients or meet people who maybe are scared about like they have suspicion that there might be some cancer that they are empowered to talk about alcohol. So even there we have you know the myths and the conditioning operating that healthcare professionals don't feel competent enough, don't feel empowered. Maybe they feel confused because how can it cause cancer if it's good for the heart or the things that you said earlier. But the patients want the healthcare professionals that doctors and nurses to talk about alcohol when it comes to cancer with them. So this campaign is really shows this very clearly. And if we can have the society wide conversations as we find aspires to have, I think that can be a huge benefit that more of the people that more of the professions that people that we rely on that we trust actually have the correct information and have these conversations. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's a big theme of one of the stories that we're featuring in the redefined alcohol campaign. If you don't mind maybe I can mention them now. Absolutely. There's a big focus on storytelling in the redefined alcohol campaign and the reason for this is simply that we have these stories and they're out there and people are often willing to tell them. So they really show some of the harms from alcohol and some of the benefits of reducing alcohol consumption in a very clear way. So at the moment on the campaign, website and on the WHO Europe YouTube, there are three stories from different European countries and I can say as a kind of teaser mic and to your listeners that there will also be three more stories that will come to the campaign website on the 1st of November and I think if you've already seen some of these ones, I think you can really look forward to the other three as well because they're going to be really, really powerful I think in my opinion at least. But if we say a few words about the stories that are there now, one of them is actually precisely on this topic. So one of the stories features Margarita who is a general practitioner in Portugal and what she talks about is a couple of things is how difficult it can be to talk about alcohol as a general practitioner when in society alcohol is such a cultural staple and people go around with believing in some of the myths but also how important it is for a general practitioner to talk about alcohol and to have the up-to-date evidence-based education and to be empowered to talk about this topic because it maybe didn't make it into the film but what we talked about with Margarita is patients really, really want to know they want to understand they want to be informed. So one of the things that Margarita in Portugal is doing is a health literacy project on Instagram where she takes some of these medical concepts or difficult biological concepts, not only on alcohol but on many different topics and really translates them for the general public. So I think that's a very important aspect and we see it in the stories but we also see it in the interest that there has been so far in the redefined alcohol campaign which has come for example from patient organizations or healthcare centers. So they would like some of this simply digested information on some of the harms from alcohol on the benefits of reducing alcohol consumption so that they can bring these two patients, they can bring these two healthcare workers empowering them to talk about this more. That's awesome and I'm really happy to hear about Margarita, both Margarita, both dimensions and how difficult it is and how important it is. We see this also in the work that we do that with what you said before Alexander is kind of alcohol marketing is really flooding our environments even in the most private spaces and even reaching, exposing often targeting children and young people. So we have a wrong perception especially in Europe, we believe everyone likes alcohol all the time everywhere but once you engage in these conversations like you realize even people who like alcohol they don't want to have alcohol all the time everywhere and then people want to have conversations people want to know people want to have like honest information about those things and I'm happy to hear that there's work going on that Margarita is doing in Portugal that validates these kinds of experiences that we have from from other countries kind of relearning, recalibrating like stepping outside this alcohol-genic environment where we are actually able them to see what people really want how they really feel and providing this like these patients organizations I think it's awesome. Yeah yeah exactly and just adding to what you said there with you know exactly the opinion on alcohol being so ubiquitous everywhere of the flooding of advertising if people are asked about about something like this suddenly the opinion and the the attitude changes and a lot of reflection goes on about that and that's especially when you then put the spotlight on on some of the vulnerable groups like you mentioned young people and children but other groups as well and if I can introduce another story of the campaign Yolanda's story from from Sweden focuses on another vulnerable group the the career community where she talks about some of the some of the tactics and the practices from commercial organizations from alcohol producers that try to frame alcohol as the magic solution to all all problems the main allies the main sponsor of LGBTQ events while actually the the harm that goes on behind the scene in an already vulnerable community members of which are often faced with with discrimination with mental health struggles that goes unnoticed and under the radar so Yolanda in in her story really puts the spotlight on that and imagines how powerful it could be if these these communities these community spaces could be reclaimed again how safe and how how joyful there could be if if members of these communities could could feel safer there would be you know fewer injuries fewer violent incidents fewer drownings and accidents and fewer suicides when we look at the world we see that alcohol companies are not championing queer issues the LGBTQIA+ community in countries like Uganda and that tells us about what Yolanda is saying what you are sharing here Alexander that the alcohol industry is exploiting these values in societies where it's beneficial to them not to the community as such and and then of course really important that you highlight this is a community that needs safe spaces and then the alcohol industry is pushing into these spaces making them really unsafe and harmful when you talked about the mental health dimension that that is one of the key aspects in the really fine alcohol campaign and I thought about research that we know from the pandemic where the alcohol industry deliberately promote their products as coping tools so unethical because when people use alcohol as a coping tool for stress anxiety and so on it puts them at much greater risk to actually develop alcohol use disorder and addiction and if I understand you correctly that's part of Yolanda story like that's that's the experience of many LGBTQIA+ people exactly yeah absolutely yes so you're absolutely right and I think the full effect of the of the pandemic we are yet to see it with data from from WHO specifically on alcohol and what has happened there we have been working with countries where where we see some some very some very alarming things some very interesting things as well because there there have definitely been been some some some different processes going on where many people particularly in lockdowns realized suddenly had the time to to reflect and see also that either their own drinking is is maybe harmful or problematic and there are also many stories that we encounter of people who thought that that was a good time a good opportunity to to reset their mindset mindset to to reduce their alcohol consumption, some have even dropped alcohol altogether during the pandemic, finding some other new focuses, new activities, and interestingly enough, there was a recent WHO Europe report from Ukraine where it has not just been the pandemic it has also been the full-scale war that has ravaged the country, and yet from the surveys that they have done in the country, they have actually seen that many people have given up alcohol understanding what a detrimental and harmful effect it can have specifically on their mental health. And if I can mention the third story of the. - I'm really happy to meet Magarida Yolanda so I'm excited to hear about the third. - Yes, the third story is cashier from Latvia and his story is from a slightly different community it's from working in show business where he is a fashion designer and multi-artist creating costumes and fashion for pop stars. And it's a lot of the story is on mental health and not only mental health, but also the way that alcohol affects your brain. So for cashier being in this industry where he would often need to be at social gatherings and occasions, receptions, he tells how he was basically pressured into starting to drink because all the conversations would happen with this alcohol-centered events and environments and what he realized was that he would often get blackouts from alcohol, which is a consequence of alcohol harming your brain and nervous system. And it can be very different for some people they can experience blackouts, not even having drunk too much alcohol. For others it's something that a person may never experience or only through a really, really high levels of alcohol consumption, but this was something that was definitely a very unpleasant surprise for cashier realizing that he has no recollection of events that he experienced realizing that some important moments and events evaded him because of a substance that he used was definitely a deal breaker for him. So he describes the benefits for brain health and mental health that he experienced. But also I think a very interesting aspect of how his firmness in changing his behaviors, his health behaviors inspired others and even those who were previously party goers or in these communities drinking heavily how they have been inspired by his example and are now reducing alcohol consumption as well. And I think this is something that some of the storytellers that we've encountered are happily surprised about that yes in many contexts there's a lot of stigma if you want to reduce or quit alcohol. In fact, it's probably the only substance that you have to make excuses not taking in Europe in particular. But after a while I think after seeing and hearing about the benefits of reduced alcohol consumption many people get infected with the idea and quite enjoy some of the alcohol free events that you leave feeling healthy and fresh as well. So I think that that aspect is really nice to see that it's not just something unique that one person is doing and everyone around them thinks that's very strange but it's actually something that has a ripple effect and others want to give it a go as well. It's very nice to hear these stories about Yolanda Margarita and Kashair and it's very important to understand the impact of alcohol and the practices of the alcohol industry on the people and our communities. In the beginning you made this great point that I wanted to get back to now that there are two dimensions to really find an alcohol. It's kind of individual, reflecting at the individual level but also societal or environmental. How are those two dimensions connected and what are campaign activities to address more of the healthy environment, the societal aspects of the alcohol harm in Europe? - Yes, absolutely. It's definitely two very interlinked dimensions of redefine alcohol and you can even say that it's redefining your own relationship or your understanding of alcohol but it's also redefining the place of alcohol in society. And the way that this works is some changes can happen at an individual level even at a mental mind shift, very personal level while other changes need to happen at a population level and at WHO and at the European office a big focus of what we do is we look at the population level solutions to reducing harm from alcohol. And there I think the good thing is that we really know what works to reduce harms from alcohol and the solutions are fast and they are effective and they go back to the points of alcohol being very normalized in society. So alcohol is much too cheap, it's normalized. So policies to increase prices and taxes on alcohol will reduce alcohol consumption and reduce harms. Alcohol is much too available everywhere. It's there in all the prime locations in the shops. It's sold to people, sometimes young people, very early on, so restrictions on availability are very effective. So restricting how and to whom alcohol is sold. And finally, we mentioned this a couple of times. Today alcohol is advertised, marketed everywhere from the gigantic billboards to very clever influencer marketing, so restrictions on or bands on marketing are very effective. What can people do with this? What they can do is show the support for governments to implement these policies because what we've encountered a lot of the times is governments are wary, just like people who receive this perception, this narrative of, we all like alcohol, we all support alcohol, the same with politicians and policymakers. They think that people who elect them will become very angry if policies are implemented. So using any opportunity to show support for alcohol control policies, that's one way of of enacting change, and then change happens in communities. Communities can be so powerful, and that's where some real change can happen when people come together in communities and really fight to create safer, more sustainable, happier spaces, and this is what is already, and in many countries that we are working with in Europe is happening, so there's a very active civil society, there are very active communities who help to protect the spaces from harms from alcohol, and there can be even more of that, and hopefully some of the redefined alcohol materials can be used as tools or as resources by these communities, by the civil society organizations, to inspire change, to rally their members together. As I mentioned at country level, as well, there are some activities planned, I can mention maybe one we've been speaking to Hungary, where the medical student association want to do a really big campaign in November, a kind of sober November, if it can be called that, in Hungary, led by medical students, and I think that's a really important group of people, because first of all it's the future health professionals who will be speaking with patients and with communities, it's also the student university level where in many countries we sometimes see the high levels of harmful alcohol patterns, binge drinking, et cetera, so change can really be powerful in these communities, and that's just making one example of what that can happen, because communications campaigns as great as they are to raise awareness of a certain issue, they need to be together with a lot of more comprehensive work that's already being done, and that there needs to be a lot more off. The point you made about showing support for these policies, I think it's really powerful framing, and we know what works, what works actually works very fast and very effectively, and showing support there, this point connects for me to the individual level conversation that we had, that human beings, our brains are wired to figure out what other human beings are doing, right, so that we connect, that we are part of the community, part of a group, and for alcohol this is shaped by the perception from very early on that the default is alcohol, not anything else, and that has this individual dimension that we discussed earlier, that we wrongly perceive that everyone likes alcohol all the time, everywhere, and it has the policy dimension that we wrongly perceive, nobody cares about alcohol harm, nobody wants to do anything about it, because when we look at the data, there is broad support for protecting people from alcohol marketing, there's broad support for putting cancer warning labels on alcohol products, there's even support for raising alcohol taxes, so I think that I think this is a really important tier that we use the really fine alcohol campaign to actually make the support visible and also change the norms in this regard. Yes, exactly, I completely agree with you, I think that's, it's a very important goal, and I think even if we can take a few steps towards that goal, that can really be very, very impactful, and I think since the campaign is a lot about putting some of this information out there that has maybe not been in the public awareness so much, I think that's very linked to one of the measures that you mentioned as well, so alcohol labeling, actually putting the information on alcohol bottles would be a very powerful measure for raising public awareness and for giving consumers really informed choices about the products that they are consuming, particularly because there are labels on almost everything else that we consume, that it's almost nonsensical that alcohol happens to be the exemption from all of the rules. I think this example of the Hungarian medical students that want to use the really fine alcohol campaign in November for sober November activities, it's already one good example for my final question in today's conversation with you, Alexandra, if I start with Movendi's members but for me it's broad about the community and I think it's an important point, this community change dimension that you brought up, I know that the members in Movendi they have lived experience in redefining alcohol in their own lives, I think this happened for me and my family in our communities, in our workplaces families, like these environments where we live, play, work in, how can our members and then like I said people in general communities in general be part of the campaign, contribute to the campaign and bring it really to their communities around Europe. Yes, I think it's a very good question and I think there that can also happen at multiple levels so it can both be at the individual levels. For example, we would love to hear and read the stories, a possible way to do that would be to share them on social media platforms including the hashtag redefine alcohol which is the campaign hashtag as we are tracking that and can share the stories further to our networks and members for those willing to share. It's possible also that you don't want to share your story on social media but a part of the redefine alcohol campaign called to action is also just sharing it with the people you know because I don't think we can underestimate the power of word of mouth conversations. So if you've had a look at the redefine alcohol campaign and have learned something or have seen something interesting, you can talk about it further, you can talk about it with someone you know and in that way spread the knowledge further as well and get them to be curious and to reflect. On the other hand, another layer is the possibility of doing organized activities which the Hungarian example was one but we will definitely be looking out for particularly in the 30 countries that are part of the project that I mentioned that this campaign is part of for activities organized locally that include a redefine alcohol element and that can be anything from organizing an alcohol free event at a workplace or putting up some posters at a healthcare center. It can be very many different things and if there is already something going on that we're not aware of, we would love to hear about it as well so it's possible to get in touch with the WHO Europe team and tell us both about any community level activities that have perhaps been inspired by the redefine alcohol campaign or even personal stories the campaign will include further on here in October and also in November probably going further on into December as well, web stories on the WHO Europe website of people who have shared lived experience as you said Mike from Vendy members as well and from others. many other stories from from European countries, but there is space for for more and we would love to love to hear them. This is a wonderful way to end because just then the beginning or the continuation, I think it's really cool to hear that patient organizations are taking our responding already. It's very inspiring that Hungarian medical students are planning activities and so on so thank you very much for your time Alexandra and this great conversation about really fine alcohol campaign and you have given us lots of really cool options to contribute and to add our voices and to bring this as far as we can across our region. Thanks a lot Mike. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much to our guest Alexandra Olsen. That's all for today's episode of the Elgul Issues podcast. We hope you found our conversation on really finding Elgul in Europe inside for. Please make sure to rate our show, subscribe and spread the word about this episode. You are most welcome to share your feedback and ideas for topics and guests. We will be back next week with a special conversation about the question whether countries are using Elgul policy in their partnerships with the UN system to drive sustainable development. In the meantime engage with us on our website, social media channels and newsletter for more content about latest Elgul policy and research developments that are changing the world. Thanks for listening and talk to you soon.