Reddit CEO Steve Huffman on surviving the AI slop-pocalypse

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Can you defend what you're talking about from AI, though? I imagine that is a big threat. Look, before there was AI Slop, there was Slop. There was human Slop. Yeah. He was Slop. And Reddit's got plenty of it. What the Reddit platform is good at is pulling the great content out of the Slop. The AI version of this problem, it's just an extension of the same challenge we've been facing for 20 years. It's access time. Is that what we say now? I don't know. Was that premeditated, Alex? It was not premeditated, obviously. It just came right out, huh? It would have been a lot better if it had been. Well, let's roll with that. How are you doing? I'm good. This is the first day and a while I haven't dramatically overbooked myself. Great. So I could actually serve myself up some watermelon high shoes as a reward for making it to this point and actually read my emails for once. And your newsletter. Can you tell what I haven't read your newsletter and the lead up to the episode? For sure. But I'm surprised you're not already like Ivan, our guest last week, and just consuming email through a chatbot. Not yet. Man, Notion is a nice company or it's just being back in media again and everybody treats me nice. But I'm currently on a slack room with one of their engineers working through some bugs with custom agents, which as a product nerd makes me feel very, very special and I do miss that. I remember when I left the verge, I was like, are people still going to want to talk to me? And the answer was no. But now you're back in media, baby. Why is everybody so nice to me? Oh, yeah. I mean, it was always just very ironic to me, like how nice people were to me. Given how little I was paid, I'm like, there's no one making $40,000 a year writing media that should have this much influence with that type of happens. It is the only job in the world where you simultaneously make so much less than everyone else around you and you also do not ask the other people around you for money. It's a very unique job in that sense, like I'll often be in the room with whatever, you know, masters of the universe type folks. And it's like, oh, literally everyone here just wants each other's money. And even though I'm the brokest of all of them, like they still want to talk to me because I'm not just with my hand out, you know, please sir. Yeah, I have some dollar pizza. That was me in New York City in 2011. Yeah, I mean, I will caveat that unless we're talking about how, you know, premium brands can align with the access podcast, then my hand is certainly out. But otherwise, yeah, man, it's, it's good to have you back in the media world. And we did get great feedback on the episode with Ivan, a CEO of Notion last week. Please check that out if you're new to the show. And leave us reviews, please help us with those, those podcast charts and watch us on YouTube. I feel like I have to be so relentlessly self-promotional now that it kind of kills me inside. But I guess that's the name of the game, right? Indeed. And getting into this week's news of interest, it's honestly, it's tough to tell. I mean, there's this post by Citrini research about the future of AI that's been going viral. Citrini. There we go. I rub it off on you, but it's honestly like tough to know because it is such a monoculture within the X algorithm where it's like, do you like Knights of the Seven Kingdoms? I shall show you the same gift 18 times and not just over the course of today, but in a row, because you like it that much. And then I saw a hundred instances of people talking about this piece, which on the one hand can be helpful to see what everybody's saying, but on the other, Twitter just is not a way to find out what is actually happening anymore with the exception of one topic per day. I think it has broken out from the echo chamber. It's got 20 million views on X in less than a day. The sub-stack post is going mega-vi as they say. Citrini research.com, the title of this is the 2028 global intelligence crisis. By the time this episode comes out, you'll have definitely heard about it. It also moves stocks. Door-dash stock went down. A bunch of other stocks went down. The entire premise of this essay, it's not like they have some crazy new insight that's like we found out that these companies are going to zero because of AI. It's purely a, I don't know what you would describe this. You're more of a writer, Ellis, but it's an imagined world in 2028, kind of writing as if you're appearing into the future where this financial firm is explaining the global economic fallout of agentic AI that has accelerated on the trajectory it's on right now. I think what resonated with everybody is just playing out the scenario of our current system where a lot of people feel like they are already getting squeezed either by corporations or capitalism at large or just the United States being 300 years old and starting to show its cracks. You could call it in shittification, you could call it extraction. There are a lot of different ways to talk about this, but I think what this piece is showing is that AI is just really only going to accelerate that. I think one example it talks about is the entire B2B SaaS sector and technology essentially existing as a way to like sell tools to people who can't build them for themselves. What happens when people can build these tools for themselves at the entire sector kind of collapses? And I don't know, man, I was getting bit spooked reading this. You sold your portfolio? No, not yet. I'm on, man. I'm on all those Vanguard 2055s assuming the world still exists. Hashtag long, baby. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking a lot about actually what Ivan was telling us last week when I was reading this. I think his quote which has gotten a little bit of pickup and I think other founders I've talked to have gone like, oh, well, he articulated that well was. If your product is not set up to be traversed by agents, you're going to be in for a really hard time. I think almost exactly how he put it and so how notion is opening up as a developer platform and is a way for agents to interact with its data ahead of even an IPO. He knows that this is the eventual end state of companies like notion software businesses. And I think Dylan Field at Figma honestly has this very similar view. I would say two of the more plugged in product-minded, still, you know, young founder, SaaS CEOs that I think are understanding the cutting edge, saying similar things. So I think that's advice that's probably worth taking to heart and digesting a bit especially with an essay like this. Well, you like my shower thoughts. Thank you for humoring them. I had a good one this morning. Well, a scary one. I was just thinking what percent of companies setting aside the founder who sets the direction? What percent of actual white collar work is trying to come up with strategic solutions to problems and just simply getting this the team aligned around them using best practices. And with people without usually a source of truth that people refer to or even remember on any regular basis, it seems to me that a lot of that stuff can be automated by agents that know the best practices that come up with a strategic point of view and can execute it dramatically faster. And I think it's just scary, man. I mean, I think what it leaves, and I've had a handful of clients in the creative space trying to talk about like AI and creativity. And I've come to believe this idea myself is that one of the things that will be the scarcest will be the outcomes of our own unique lived experiences, whether we turn them into art or products or fashion or services or games. And that's something that like AI almost by definition cannot do, especially when people so genuinely appreciate the story, the personal story behind something. But yeah, man, I mean, this post was all about just like white collar collapse. And a lot of the logic of it seemed kind of sound to me for a lot of these jobs that just largely boil down to like best practices, execution and coordination. Yeah. Or does that sound crazy? No, I think that's totally right. There was my favorite line was it should have been clear all along that a single GPU cluster in North Dakota generating the output previously attributed to 10,000 white collar workers in Midtown Manhattan is more economic pandemic than economic panacea. It's like, yeah, and also it's just this very, I guess, basic human insight that humans spend a lot on discretionary goods and things that are not "logical" or necessary. And guess what? Robots have zero need for discretionary spending. So what happens to the rest of the economy that is so reliant on upper-middle-class, white-collar, quote-unquote "knowledge work" workers spending on all these things if they're wages plummet because they're out of, you know, work, and AI, you know, doesn't give a shit about your vacation business. What is that going to do? The ripple effects just seem pretty extreme if you buy the logic of this article. I mean, we certainly have not felt the impact of agents, even if they are just B or B plus agents working not just faster, traditionally, they don't need a lunch break to go to the bodega. I guess you said last episode, Alex, you only take a five minute lunch break. So you're still at pace with the agents here. However, you still have to sleep, don't you? I go to sleep, but, you know, you don't have that edge anymore. Well, yeah, I mean, there's an argument to like, you know, if I have 10 agents at all times or infinite number that can do things for me in parallel, that is going to replace jobs. There's just no way it won't because that's activity that would have either been done by me or I would have hired out to someone else in a system or whatever. And if these agents actually work like that, which I don't think right now, they're reliable enough, shout out to the the meta AI executive who accidentally had open call delete her entire work inbox. That was another viral X post the other day that I saw. So these things aren't quite reliable enough, but, you know, when they get there and it seems like they will at the rate they're going, yeah, man, people are totally going to be out of work. One of the quotes I liked from this piece, the economy can find a new equilibrium. Getting there is one of the few tasks left that only humans can do. And then, of course, the kicker at the end, saying it's not too late, quote, the canary is still alive. It's weird though, dude. I mean, another quote from this that said, every decision was rational, but altogether catastrophic. I mean, I work with hundreds of companies and they're all just kind of bright eyed young people trying to say, hey, I worked in this industry and it frickin sucked. And I'm going to have AI make it better. But as soon as all this stuff becomes digital, yes, it allows for hopefully more pay, more efficiency. But then down the road, when everything gets marketized, turned into a market where anything can be bought and sold, that's kind of the final outcome. And then it bites people back in the butt. And it seems that AI is just going to kind of take that to the next level. And if you seem to have the ability with the exception of maybe Dario and this piece to actually play some of this stuff out, have you seen others who've like written kind of vision e posts with specificity? No. And I think what it showed me is that it is really worth sitting with the potential ramifications of the things we understand, even just you and I were not like experts on this stuff by any means. But I think we do have an unusual level of access no pun intended to the people building this stuff. And I am so just kind of tunnel vision on what I do day to day. I don't know how you feel about this, but I don't really spend a lot of time actually abstracting out the implications of what I'm seeing up close, you know, a year from now. Yeah, you don't have kids yet. Well, yes, there's that. But just even the technology, I'm like selfishly, it's like, damn, like we could probably make some money if we actually thought this through, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, we're certainly the lucky ones who have some scare sales asset, whether it is, you know, experience or connections that we can find more ways to monetize in a way that's good for us and our families. But for the vast majority of people is just quite a different equation, I think. Anything else going on for you this week? I was going to go to New York and I canceled that trip due to Blizzard. And I'm very glad that I did because the weather is glorious this week as it always should be in LA. But anything else top of mind for you? Man, I'm just glad I'm not dealing with like the New York weather hysteria. I found that just like so grating every other week in New York City. I guess that was the old Twitter days as well. It's kind of fun. I kind of miss like, there were a couple of blizzards. I remember when I live there. And yeah, it's insane and intense, but it's definitely a memory, you know. Well, that's because you're a true reporter. Whereas I am not, I think media people like to catastrophize. Yeah. I just like to yap. Otherwise, I'm speaking of yapping. I'll be at the upfront summit in LA this week yapping away with all the VCs and tech people and talking to some potential future guests for access. What's on your YAP agenda? My YAP agenda. I'm chasing some scoops for sources. I can't reveal the moment, but I think one will be out. One is in the chamber. I was actually on TBPN last Friday talking about some of this night. Shout out to John and Jordy for having me on at the ultra dome. We were talking about the art of scooping. And as I said, then I've always got, you know, something in the scoop chamber. It's just a matter of timing, you know. Have you ever double scooped? Take my source to Jennings and gotten the scoop while getting the scoop? Yeah. Or you, you just do a scoop at a time, but the cone is full. And it's like, you know, I've got a, you know, we can keep this, this metaphor going. But yeah, I'm kind of in that position right now, which is just a rare treat. You know, it's like when you get the triple stacked cone, it's like, man, I really am treating myself. I guess at this point, since we haven't already, we should say who our guest is this week. We have Steve Hoffman, the CEO and co-founder of Reddit. Reddit is obviously a very important company. Ellis is a DAU. And I am a probably weakly user. But I think Reddit has played a big part in both of our internet lives of the last 15 or so years. I've definitely fixed a router or two through it. I think as we find out in the interview, maybe thanks to you without knowing that. And I like Steve. I've known Steve for a while. You'll hear in the interview. We were just at a dinner together a few weeks ago. And Steve is always good at actually sharing his opinion, which is increasingly rare as a public company, tech CEO and not being afraid to give his take. And I think he did that with us. But yeah, I really appreciated him coming on. Would you think of Steve? Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting and kind of lovable to me is that they've just kind of found this niche. I mean, they're making a lot of money. They're a public company now. But they're by no means a three billion user company, like some of the others out there. And I think for a long time, people have had this idea that as a social or community platform, you either go boom or you go bust. And it seems like they've carved out a really nice place for themselves where they're making good money and able to actually certainly, in part, things to having the founder still there. Keep some ethics and morals going of some kind, even if you don't agree with them as they go about their daily lives, making this thing. So yeah, it was fun to dig into that and more. And a CEO who appreciates ship hosting, which is also increasingly rare these days. I don't know if we want to encourage that because people think they're good at it. And then they're not. And then it's it is a French. Yeah, yeah, don't do it unless you're really sure you're good. All right, we'll we'll kick it to spaz. How about that? Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result, less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com/spotify. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses set up require a compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Hey, Steve. How you doing? Good. How are you? Doing great. Doing great. What's what's been top of mind for you since we last saw each other? Just a few weeks ago at that dinner you guys had. You guys had earnings? Do we have earnings? Oh, yeah. It was the evening before earnings and you know what? This is actually a great place to start. I've done this long enough to where I can tell how the management team feels about earnings based on the vibe of like the press event right before. You guys were feeling pretty good. I was going to say the quality of the appetizers are usually a reflection of how earnings were. Could tell you guys were feeling okay about the quarter and it was a good quarter. Yeah, it's a good quarter. I think I'm happy with the results. Honestly, almost every earnings has felt the same. And honestly, almost every one of my board meetings has felt the same. I'd say like 90% of them are, if they're good about the work we did, there's always more to do. So that sounds like neither an upvote or a downvote on board meeting, just kind of neutral. Well, I actually love my board meetings. Love my board meetings. It's just that our mentality is almost always the same. We did a lot. I'd like to do more. We got a bunch of stuff to do. It's pretty much the same pattern. A non-stop treadmill. It's better than a treadmill. I'm running on treadmill torture. This is, I actually enjoy this. You've been at this for a while. I mean, 20-ish what plus years? Do you feel like you have another 20 in you? I don't have any other plans. It's hard for me to imagine 20 years in the future, especially these days, but that has nothing to do with Reddit. During my time at Reddit, I had five years not at Reddit. So I was with Reddit for the first five years that I was gone for about five, I've been back for the last 10. So I've had a taste of life not working at Reddit, and I prefer working at Reddit. It's a cool job. We get to do a lot of interesting things. And you get to do press dinners with Alex, which what is that even entail? You know, just the convincing about our industry. It's not the worst way to spend an evening. It was great. You said something wild about prediction markets. Can you repeat it here on the podcast? I was wondering what did I say. You think the CII is running prediction markets? Did I say that? Doesn't sound like something I'd say. Sounds like some crazy ass redder. We were talking about it. And you know, it's a thing that it's a kind of conversation. I'm having a lot with founders. Everyone is so fascinated by prediction markets. And I just interviewed Chris Bassett, sub-stack about their integration with Polymarket. I'd be curious to actually know, yeah, how is Reddit thinking about that space? Is that something you guys want to do partnerships with? Or how do you feel about it? Yeah, it's interesting. Before prediction markets, Polymarket and CalSheet existed, we thought of Reddit as a prediction market. And I still think of it this way, right? You can kind of get a sense of where things are going by looking at Reddit. Now, sometimes it's more direct and other times, I think it's interpreting reading tea leaves a bit. I don't know. To me, I feel like we're still figuring out where they fit in society. They are, in many cases, I think, better at reporting the news than the news. The best example right is the presidential elections. If you just want to know where things are trending, it's so much faster to just look at the graph than to read some, you know, cope from a reporter on election night. But there's other areas where things are more complicated. Like sports is one. I guess any area where the better has agency seems to be problematic. Or there's the specific, like Maduro gets captured at X time and maybe the CIA slips and inform it. You know, a little bit of the take on a prediction market and maybe you've got a weird thing happening there. There's so many opportunities for insider behavior. Yeah. We've seen this in the prediction markets. We've seen it in crypto. And we can come up with less conspiratorial examples. Right. Let's say somebody's thinking about running for governor in California. And so they can just go place a bet on will they run for governor in California? Well, that's Super Bowl producer. Whoever that was who keeps winning bets on what the first song is going to be. That definitely happened. And if you're telling me college basketball players aren't missing free throws to make a few bucks, like, that's got to be happening. Well, the strike speed is interesting, though, I feel like Steve, you're the leader of one of these communities that has probably done the most independent research. of any other community. I feel like Reddit was always the place where if you aren't checking consumer reports or where someone is going to post a leak or where somebody with a million carmas going to share the inside story on something. I feel like it's always been a great place for that. And I guess when we talk to the CEO of Calci, he was just talking about this as a way for people to essentially turn that research into something that they can actually make money off of. The positive way to describe these things is people putting their money where their mouth is, right? And so there's a lot of valuable information there. So I mean, if there is separation between the, I don't know what they call them. They probably don't call them better, but I don't know if you can really call them investors. So I'm going to call them a better. So if there's some separation from the better and the outcome, I think it's really, really powerful. It's when the better, as agency over the outcome, that it's corrupt. Or not. I mean, is it? I mean, I think it is. But the thing is, the platform's revealing the information, right? You could see where the money is. Yeah. Like where the money is actually most likely to happen, probably more than any other polling system. Yeah. I mean, in started trading is a huge thing. And also how disputes get resolved is a big issue. And how, you know, if it's not as clear cut as yes or no, what happens? Those two things, I don't think these markets have figured out at scale. So it sounds like you're more of like a wait and see on if that makes sense in any kind of product layer for Reddit. I think the way we'd approach anything like this, and this is the way we thought about it, is let the users build it. So we have the developer platform on Reddit, which lets you build, you know, basically apps within Reddit. Today it's mostly games, plus some moderation tools. But like one of the first ones that was built was polls. And so prediction markets are like super polls. But we don't have money flowing through it. And that's where these prediction markets need to be, you know, they have to get regulated. Or I don't know, script the law or whatever. That's where we're much, much more conservative in those things. Like we don't want to be tied up in those conversations. But I think there's so many interesting things that can be done on Reddit. Because Reddit provides distribution and lots of people with lots of viewpoints, that's why we built the developer platform, is to let users do interesting things where there's lots of users. But like the impetus for developer platform, I mean, one of the big ones at least was like our place, which was the April Fool's game. We've run it a couple times now, right? Where a bunch of users create a work of art, in my opinion, at the same time collaborative. And so, but anyway, things like where you need lots of people participating at. Once that's what Reddit does, it brings lots of people participating in the same area. So you could do predictions, but in a sense, all of Reddit's predictions. I'd be a little sad as a longtime Reddit DAU representing in the room here. If it got too overtly like prediction marketing or monetization, because I feel like Reddit is one of the only remaining places on the internet, where there's some altruism with why people post. And I feel like that's part of the mistake that every other platform has made in terms of community building, is that they've made everything so likable, monetizable. Everybody becomes their own brand. I mean, obviously it's not fully anonymous. It's about pseudonyms. People get cred within their subs and whatnot. But I really enjoy that aspect. And so I'd be a little scared if it got a little too commercial. Like one of the, I think important things about Reddit is if you're good at Reddit, it doesn't help you in the real world. You're just good at Reddit. You've got a bunch of Reddit karma that you can't do anything with. Nobody gets famous or rich in the real world for being good at Reddit. And that in hindsight, I think is a really important quality of Reddit, which is you're just there because you enjoy doing it or you want to do it, or it's fun or helpful or whatever. So we'll leave the influencers to the other platforms. We don't ever want that. But there's a line. This is one we're trying to figure out how to walk, which is around creators. And so we spend time thinking about what's the difference between a creator and an influencer. Because Reddit loves original content. But then they read it doesn't like self-promotion. But I always ask like, okay, where do you think original content comes from? I think they can be the same thing, but influencer, if you want to take it literally, I think maybe you're trying to influence people over things that have already been created, whereas a creator is literally creating from that zero. And maybe the influencers come in around that content or amplify it. Or maybe that's a way to think about it. I guess influencers, maybe their main product was themselves. Maybe disproportionately versus creators, I don't know. Yeah, I think those are both helpful ways of articulating it. I mean, creators create and so there should be some artifact. I made some art. I wrote this thing. I made this video. Now, obviously influencers do that as well. But that's good behavior. I think if you're contributing, if you're creating content that people like, that's what people want. People want the content. But then the line gets fuzzy. You could be an artist who does brand promotions. It gets fuzzy pretty quick. Well, this is the thing you've talked about a lot recently too, is reddit has this just very strong anti-promotional culture, right? And I think publishers have felt this over the years. We were talking about this at dinner like I think publishers are scared of Reddit because they've experimented before and then they just get you know absolutely destroyed in the comments for trying to promote their work. And it's just this instinctual kind of anti brand anti promotional part of Reddit that you have to figure out with that. Right. And at the same time a huge amount of content on Reddit is links to publisher content. Like at one point when we started Reddit that was 100% of the content. So the irony if you're publication or you're a journalist or an author of something and you write something that the Reddit community will like and you submit it yourself you'll get chased out of town. But if somebody else submits it on your behalf it's welcomed. And then if the author shows up and like talks about it that's celebrated. It's like oh my gosh the author's here. And so it's really important that we for many reasons land the plane like figure out how do you get the content whether it's professional publisher content or artwork or whatever in Reddit hopefully by the creator giving the creator credit letting them sit there and enjoy the conversation with their fans or the consumers in a way that feels great. But there's really there's a lot of emphasis on like feels great. Hashtag authentic Steve right. But a lot of Reddit is feelings in that way. Yeah. Well I mean so Ellison I both worked at the kind of early I would say web 2.0 publishers B.I. in the verge especially in the kind of mid 2000s where you know the chart beat would be up in the office and you know we would randomly get you know a big subreddit would link to one of our stories and it was just I don't know if you remember this else but it was just this like yeah Reddit bomb the Reddit bomb I forget what we called it it was just like you know miracle from on high just firehose of eyeballs but it was so random and so unpredictable because we weren't promoting it ourselves. And it would be like way even earlier than that I remember like when delicious with link something and it was just like oh my god like the server's almost coming down on this blog I worked for because of that and you you will still have that distribution you still have those eyeballs how yeah how can you fan that out and get creators to see that I guess it sounds like a huge challenge. So so we're building a bunch of stuff here you know we call it Reddit pro and within that it's Reddit for publishers but basically a non-community space for creators and professionals to put their content on Reddit and they make it easy for communities to pull it in for multiple communities to pull it in because I think also one of the values that Reddit provides is you can see how particular piece of content is received differently in different communities and that's one of the ideas of Reddit right is such that these communities have different perspectives so one might love it one might dislike it but just making that more intentional. I think the answer to a lot of these questions on Reddit is often transparency and intentionality so transparency yes this is professional content and intentionality it was submitted over here like in this like Reddit pro area and then pulled in by the community and everything's kind of labeled as such and this is the creator so like nothing sneaky is happening so the devil's in the details I think it's really important that we get them right because we want the web to exist we want creators to thrive like we love linking to things or embedding things like really what's important to read is the conversation about the thing it's like the thing and the conversation about the thing so we're into our way there but the no self promotion rule is like one of the first rules on Reddit like we had that rule probably before we had any other rule I mean it's frankly amazing that you guys are still flying this flag 20 years later I mean as Alex alluded we have watched as media and then I was internal snapchat for several years we have watched all of these platforms just give in more and more to the cult of performance and everything becomes media and before you know it there are no friends left on platforms like Instagram and I think it's less than 20% of engagement now as friends and everybody's just giving in to what's most engaging and but at the same time that's also what's allowed them to become these unbelievable businesses I'm curious how you feel like investors and advertisers these days are receiving the identity you know what I mean because that has its has its trade-offs it does and we are we are stubbornly principled so in our history so we predate social media right when we started Reddit Facebook was like a year old and for college kids YouTube was maybe six months old and snap was but a twinkle in Evan's eye no Evan was like a twinkle in his mom's eye this is so long ago we watched all these platforms grow faster than us and we I knew what was working we're not doing those things right we're not building a social graph we don't have friends on Reddit really the real world identity thing is like a sacred line we don't want to cross and so there was a time where we accepted just being smaller like we're not going to do that like maybe we're this corner of the internet this little corner of the internet you know it's more authentic or altruistic or niche or nerdy or whatever it was I think I'll apply it at the time and I remember saying don't don't people know what these platforms are doing like don't they care about their privacy and I remember being sad I was like they they just must not care it turns out they did care like the users the consumers care they just didn't know what was happening and so now when this question comes up which is like why aren't you more like social media you know I tell the story but then I also remind like our company and investors we're one of the few platforms that still doing this after 20 years and so yeah we took a path because we're Reddit and we made some trade-offs that maybe you know inhibited growth for a while but we're also here because we're Reddit and we made those trade-offs and there are thousands of other platforms that didn't make it here and now we're big enough a big difference between now and maybe whatever this is 15 years ago is I used to think we were destined to be small and now we're big enough that like we've got one of everybody on Reddit at least we've checked the box or answered the question can Reddit work for anybody I used to just believe that oh Reddit doesn't work for everybody like it's just two text space to something to not social media to work for everybody but it actually can work for everybody so we're gonna keep doing it our own way and I believe we can grow as big as anybody doing it our way this brings me I think to the big can of worms that I think is maybe the biggest question facing you all on just the internet more broadly is can you defend what you're talking about from AI though can you defend it from especially agents at scale what people are doing with stuff like open claw and how that naturally will scale over time I think how are you thinking about that you know the the proliferation of slop as they say and you know there's these stories now about how Reddit's battling AI slop and I imagine that is a big threat look before there's AI slop there a slop there's human slop yeah human slop and Reddit's got plenty of it like what the Reddit platform is good at is pulling the great content out of the slop the AI version of this problem it's just an extension of the same challenge we've been facing for 20 years which is not all contents great and some of it's inauthentic right spam or marketing materials or whatever some other manipulation so we've been fighting the manipulation battle for our entire existence and we'll continue doing that and then through the Reddit voting system right it's really great at surfacing good content now does somebody get the best of us from time to time for sure like it's an arms race and so there's always a you know a new front and so we'll always have to evolve and so you know I can get into human verification and how we think about all of this but I also think one thing that's really interesting is there's a community rejection like completely non-technical when they suspect content of being AI slop right when when when a Reddit post sounds like a LinkedIn post people like oh all right thanks bot is that a bot or is that a human using chat GPT and sounding like a bot more of the latter than the former but both are issues but the community it's interesting the community just is in the process of rejecting it outright no matter what we do but you are going to label I saw in the last earnings call you said you're going to start moving to a bot verification and labeling so so there's a couple of a couple of things that are really important to us the premise on Reddit the assumption on Reddit is everybody you're talking to as a person like that is important and so if people perceive that to not be the case that's a real problem right perception problems are problems so in cases where the account is suspicious okay there's a couple levels there's one level which our users never see which is if we caught the account right if it's a bot or spammer we just ban it and there's a huge volume of content on Reddit that just gets removed probably like 95 percent of content gets removed as spam which is one of the reasons it's so hard to build something like Reddit today like just that and this is even pre AI right this is not even a AI just pre AI 95 if I was on the content, is spam to begin with. So we do that. And then if there's stuff that's in the gray area, we'll stop putting more pressure on, right, are you a human? Is there a human behind this account? What I'd really like to do is what we're calling As in Seat. So not only was there a human at registration time, like is there a human sitting in front of the computer right now? As in Seat, I like that, a new metric. Yeah, well, because I-- - Hey, I.S. On the next earnings call. - People are gonna use agents. Like there's no way around it. People are gonna use agents to control their computer. And so we wanna make sure that there's a person directing that thing. - And if that's happening, it's okay? - Well, I don't think we can say no agents. So I think we'll have to kind of take this one step at a time. So I think having human verification is important. Having lightweight human verification or re-verification, like face ID, for example, or touch ID. Just as an aside, like the design of face ID or touch ID, they're basically part of the past key ecosystem, which is built around human presence. So face ID, a touch ID, a UB key, all those things require a human to physically do something. That's why they're so helpful. So doing, I think, little checks like that, periodically, will be helpful to us. This is for like the gray area use cases, where it's like, we're not quite sure. So you should assume it's humans. We're gonna ban everything that we believe is not a human. And if it's gray area, then we'll do these little checks. - This episode is brought to you by Accenture. The result? - This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. (soft piano music) - One of the things that I like most about it, both as a contributor and as a reader, is that it feels like there's actually a long tail that isn't just based on what's most engaging or what's most popular. I mean, you were talking about not getting anything out of it in the real world per se, but I do think that there is something special about the self-esteem that you can feel as someone who helped others. And it's just, it's bizarre to me that Reddit seems to be the only place on the internet that it's working and thriving. Obviously, you're not as big as the others, but every so often I get an email that my Reddit post about my fucked up Nest Wi-Fi spectrum modem configuration, that was totally backwards for some reason, has helped someone new. - Wait, that was you. - You're joking. - I swear to God, I went through something like this a couple of years ago and I used to remember most. - No way. What a cute misconnection. You helped me fix my router. - You're saying your Nest Wi-Fi after a powder outage was not playing nice with your spectrum modem? - Yeah. - Dude, that honestly could have been my post. - Incredible. - Anyway, I believe Wi-Fi and I believe routers and I believe modems are some of the worst technologies ever invented. And so that's all I don't post much on Reddit. But I had to post that. I'm like, this is gonna help people. It started slow and over the course of years. You know, I get replies and it's just so strange to me that this mechanic of the human mind of wanting to be helpful to people is very powerful. But, and it could have existed elsewhere but people almost just kind of abandoned it in favor of the instant gratification of likes, comments and engagement. - They've, they've, okay, well, totally appreciate what you're saying. I mean, you're describing fulfillment and you're describing like one of the basic qualities of a community. Like a community, not just on Reddit. Community in the real world is a group of people who among other things have some care or affection for one another. And I think communities are a natural byproduct of people being together. And so Reddit is the digital version of that. So yeah, it feels good to help other people. That's all of humanity, by the way. It's everything, like I always look out the window at a city. It's like, why do cities exist? It's because people like to build things and make things nicer for other people. And so I think in that regard Reddit is natural. It's just allowing humans to do naturally what they like to do. Share a few laughs, gossiping, commits and talk about things, help each other out, maybe ask for help if they need it. That's why even in the AI world, or any other version of the world, like we've talked about this before, like Reddit versus social media and now Reddit versus AI, we always come back to this core principle that people wanna be connected to other people around shared passions and interests and help each other out and feel good doing so. That's not going away. That's not going away in any version of the world. - But you're both discounting, like a lot of, yes, also a lot of people do just have that natural gratification and altruism, but a lot of people are also assholes and grifters and freeloaders. - Not true. - Not true, okay. Some people are, I think it's less than one percent of the population. - You feel like as a whole, the community has anybody's against assholes, as a whole? - On the whole, there's, in the same way that society, in general, does. And I just like, I know it's easy to be pessimistic about the world and our fellow humans, but you can go anywhere and talk to, I think, anybody. And as long as you don't talk about politics, you'll probably actually have a lot in common or a lot of fun, interesting things to talk about. And I bet you will find that about 1% of people are assholes and the vast majority of people are just normal people. Now, when you start talking about politics, it gets a little different. - That's why we have a no politics role in the show, Steve. - Oh, great. That's why we're getting along so great. (laughing) But I think the challenge is, on social media, it incentivizes people to behave in an unnatural way. You can actually be a crew power in the real world for talking about politics in an extreme way. Like, that's a problem. - In a way that you would never say it to someone's face. - In a way you probably don't even believe. - I mean, the platforms literally hand you a megaphone if you were to be in the digital town square, they say, "Hey, would you like to yell?" Here, yell louder because people are gonna look at it. - It's like, you get rewarded for saying crazy things. - Yeah. Well, I'm curious. I mean, you know, talking about fulfillment, I mean, it seems like you guys have had a lot of success just kind of bucking some of these best practice metrics that social platforms have used. I mean, do you have any metrics for long-term, you know, fulfillment or esteem in any way? I mean, some of it's intuition, just having been using this platform for so long. But we can see that there's interesting things looking back. The more time people spend on Reddit, the more subreddits they join. And it's just like, so people just kind of go deeper and deeper and broaden their interests. And then the more subreddits they join, the more time they spend on Reddit. And so for us a lot of it's like, how do we, like the metrics we care about, how do we help people find on Reddit the things they care about? It's a really long tail of interests. And so it's kind of spreading people across more and more diverse subreddits or just more simply having diverse subreddits is some of the things that we think about. So we don't optimize for time on site, for example. We measure it, like we track it. But what we look at is like, how many subreddits subscriptions do you have? Like are you actually finding things you enjoy? Quantifying fulfillment's a little harder. But I think we can simplify it to, are you following subreddits you like? Are your posts successful? Is a big one we think about right now? Like how many people write, not just good posts, but good posts that don't get removed. 'Cause that's one of our biggest problems. Lots of good posts get removed. About half of posts get removed by auto-moderator, which is this like ancient piece of technology. It's like this non-AI barbaric piece of technology that removes posts by a lot of new users. Like that's a huge problem. Slap a no-lim in that thing, Steve, it's time. Easier said than done, but yeah, that's basically the plan. Well, so talk about, I mean, the experience for new users these days. I mean, I imagine at one point most people, at this point who I've apps and use the internet have tried Reddit at one point or another. I think we all know it's hard to get people back once they've tried something. I mean, how was that new user journey these days and how are they retaining? Okay, so I'll give you my board and earnings answer. It's better, but we got a lot of work to do. And that's the truth. So we've gone through a big transition at Reddit. We're really, it's still in the middle of it. By the way, we're having a hard to heart here. Has someone who worked at Snapchat for seven years, where retention was halted. always pesky? People don't get it. Why don't they get it? Once they get it, we've got them. Everybody can get it. And so, okay, so how do we do that faster and more efficiently? Well, red the product has changed. We used to be the front page of the internet. You know, it started as a joke and then also title that we wanted to earn. And then I felt like we we earned it. But now that that was so in other words, one front page for everybody. Our popular. Now it's what we now call our popular. It used to just be reddit.com. Yeah. What you just said sucks. And you're getting rid of our popular sucks because it's the lowest common denominator now. And as red it gets broader and more diverse and bigger, all good things, the lowest common denominator becomes lower and lower. So we call this regression to the mean. To the point where our popular is not actually relevant to anybody. It used to be this like amazing magical experience when our user base was homogenous. Now it's probably off putting to most new users. So that's a huge change. We used to have one subreddit right now. We have, you know, many thousands. So the problem, the problem has changed along the way there. So how do we get you into subreddit's relevant to you quickly? That's really the question. What's the reaction been to getting rid of our popular? I haven't heard anybody defend it. You know, if we had done this 10 years ago, I think there's a lot of reddit users who just only had the front page. But truly it's not working. So that'll be a big part of it. Now to have a more personalized front page, you have to know something about the user. And so that is where, you know, how do you learn something about the user very quickly? And so there's a few assumptions we can make. You know, I'll give you something that'll probably, that's pretty easy, non-controversial, like local. So what's the city here in? What are the sports teams? What's going on? Like that sort of stuff, local is is a piece of information. Like we generally know kind of where you are, at least at a high level, like what country you're in or what state or maybe what city. That's pretty safe and non-controversial and relevant. So I think we can go heavier that direction. I always feel like reddit has been good for local. And it's always been so underappreciated as the other platforms have kind of vacated this space. Is that something that's personally important to you, Steve? Like creating spaces for people to talk about local news? Because it really, really bothers me. And I feel like it's in some sense has destroyed the fabric of society that everybody in their one feed is seeing global news all day every day. That's all ranked by engagement. Yeah, and also is probably irrelevant to like 99% of people's 99% entire experience. Like the San Francisco subreddit, you know, really kind of started to come to its own during COVID. So that was kind of my direct experience seeing this play out on Reddit. I think you just kind of need a critical mass and our recommendations have to be good enough to get in front of you. But I think local is great. Right? Communities, there's this general idea, I think about the size and health of communities. And so in the real world, the community can only be so big and still feel like a community. And on Reddit, we have this interesting quality where a big community still feels small. You can go the largest subreddit, which on any day of the week might be ask Reddit. And it's still, there's something about it that causes it to still feel small. Right? When you read a conversation that might be between 10 people talking to each other, right? User one to user two to user be whatever. It actually sounds like two people going back and forth. And so that it's big, but it feels small quality, I think, is really important for maintaining that that that sense of community. But the nice thing about local is the more local you get, it just is small. And you start to have shared values and shared vernacular and an affection for one another. All these shared favorite bagel shop, shared favorite bagel shop, always controversial here in LA, or at least strong opinions about these things. And so local is I think a gateway to relevance as are like shared experiences. So parenting is another big one. Like who would have thought Reddit would be one of the best platforms for parents? Certainly not me when I was 21 when you know that was maybe more of a nightmare than an aspiration. But those like shared experiences, I think are really powerful creating that that that sense of belonging. Speaking of the back and forth, you are a, I would say infamous as for a textio shit poster, you recently, I saw posted that you love shit posting on Reddit. You made that known again recently. What's what what have you had success with on the shit posting front recently? What ults are you using for that too? That's yeah, I don't use I don't use ults anymore. John Baron. No, there's no way. I just one I'm just too old to juggle multiple accounts. And then if I made a mistake. So, so I'm only I'm only spaz there are no other ults. I'm trying to find this balance. Yes, I love shit posting. I'm also the CEO of a public company. And if I say the wrong thing, it could be a problem for folks. So I'm really trying to get better at walking that line. But I think being present is important. I'm trying to I'm trying to get back in it. But it's it's you know, it's been a journey to be honest with you. I was just gonna say you can't you can't dunk on the haters like you like you used to is that the problem or you know, there's there's I think there's an art to doing that and not punching down. You know, but it's probably it is possible. But there's I think it's some finesse is required. I mean I just think it's a good practice to be available and fallible and not a big dick as CEO like people are fine with people that make mistakes. You know, the problem is when you aren't available to be accountable to it or anything like that. Especially for these social platforms. I mean that's one of the things that's interested me about Reddit this entire time is that no one expects the rules to be perfect for a community. But they do expect to be there to be some local accountability for it. And that's in my view what's been the problem the whole time with these global platforms is that they try and make rules for everybody and say it's impossible. People don't actually need that. They just want there to be local emissaries that they could work with. I think there's a couple dimensions to this. Like the first step is acknowledging the problem, whatever it is. People get really upset when they say I think this is a problem and then you say actually no, it's not. It doesn't exist, right? So that's kind of the gaslight behavior. People really hate that. If somebody says I think this is a problem and you say yeah, I agree or at the minimum I agree this is happening. And I think it's a problem where I don't. And then you're talking about next steps. You're on much, much firmer footing. And so I think this is a mistake that leaders make a lot is they just deny that there's an issue to talk about at all. That's that gets people really, you know, riled up. But if you say hey, I agree. And then you're arguing about solutions. You're on much firmer footing. Now the local loss thing is is an interesting one. As a matter of principle, we comply with local laws mostly. But there's a line and we wrote this in our content policy, right? There's also kind of values around free expression and free speech that we think are really important. And so it might be the law in some dictatorship to ban political dissent. So we don't do that. Drugs and porn aren't the free speech hill that I'm going to die on. Right. So again, some some consideration required in all of these things. But we're a global platform and we realize that, you know, cultures around the world are wildly different. But I also'm not going to tell you I know all the answers in all of these, you know, and these pressures have been flow, right? I'd actually be curious here from you, not even just in the US, but globally, even the US, I guess, especially a poignant right now. How do you feel that is flowing right now? Do you feel like there's more pressure than ever on you to censor? Or do you feel like it's not as bad as it's been in the past? It comes and goes. I'd say if you ask my like censorship barometer, it's lower than it's been in the past. But I think that the argument is changed. So, you know, during the 2020 era, there was a immense amount of pressure to censor content that went against the orthodoxy around, you know, COVID was an easy one, but just a lot of the political stuff. We tried to stay out of it, right? We tried to stay out of it, which meant by and large, like, not censoring. Although there's a few decisions I'd like to have back. These days, I'd say that the conversation is more nuanced. I mean, there are some bad laws out there about, you know, misinformation or this or that. The parental controls or child safety. Is a big one? You're suing Australia over that. Yeah. They called you big tobacco. Yeah. Well, they made this under 16 ban. We're totally for child safety. Now, Reddit was specifically mentioned in there. First of all, Reddit's not, it's not for kids. It's not relevant to kids. We don't market it to kids. We don't have a lot of young people on the platform. But we do pick people up. Users up. We call them emerging adults. And so, you know, this might be late-stage teenagers. These are people who are developing their opinions, including political opinions. And so for the government to say, you can't consume this source of news. In fact, you can only consume sources of news that the government approves is effectively what they're saying. That's a problem. Even if your parents disagree. By the way, even even like the Australian e-safety board, they don't even like this law. And so, I think there are better ways of achieving more safety online than the government choosing which sources of news are better than others. Keep in mind that, not just Reddit, but social media broadly, is, for many people, the number one source of news and information and concluding political news and information. And these kids are barely kids. They'll be voting in like two years. And so, you're basically saying, this new group of voters can't get information from the most popular sources of information. They can only get it from these other sources. I don't think that's right. Even if their parents disagree, I don't think that's right. That has, it's completely different conversation from how do we protect kids online? And I think we spend so much time talking about what kids can't see and not like keeping kids out of the adult areas, and not nearly as much time talking about how to keep adults out of the kids areas. And that, that, I think, is much firmer footing. That separation of kids, and let's call 'em like, I separate kids from maybe like a young people, late-state seniors, or some emerging adults, and actual adults. Like, I think separation was really important. And I think doing that at the OS level or the browser level would be much more effective. And I think a rental control. - You agree with Zach on that? That's the thing that a lot of the platform companies are saying is that Apple and Google need to be doing the age verification. - It would be a lot better, and it'd be a lot more safe and private than every app, re-implement it, using whatever third party source or not. Like, a big part of Reddit is we don't know your identity. Like, we don't wanna know your identity, right? And the identity is safety. So we don't wanna see your ID. We don't wanna have that exist in a database that could be hacked or leaked or subpoenaed, right? It's just, the best logs are no logs. And so I think the OS level is a great place to do it, 'cause the phone already knows your birthday. It already knows what you look like. It scans your face a thousand times a day. And the phones are far more secure than, like, they have secure chips in them. Hashtag Secure Enclave, but for real. So, I just think it's a much better starting point for us and everybody else to have it built into the phone. - LSU agree with that, is a parent, you endorse that? - Definitely. I certainly haven't heard a better idea. I mean, I have been fully leaked a number of times now. I feel like I get those notices more, like every other week at this point. (laughing) Like, it feels like it's experienced marketing strategy. - Oh, we just got breached. (laughing) - Here's your weekly reminder. - Siner Shell Company, who owns the Shell Company of some place I got my car rental eight years ago, has leaked my social again. Whoopsies! - This is actually a nice tie-in to the next thing I want to talk about before you have to go, which is AI scraping and your AI deals, speaking of people, middle men, reselling data. Something you've been dealing with in combating, especially in the run-up to going public, and you've got the Google and Open AI deal. I've actually been surprised that you haven't announced other big deals like that. And I know you're in some lawsuits with other players. But is the AI data business where you would hope it would be by now? Had you hoped to have other deals? Or is this what you always kind of thought? It would just be those two big ones. - Let's say it's probably neither. I'm glad we did those deals for a variety of reasons. I think it helped change the narrative about Reddit. I think there's a lot of concerns that AI would kill Reddit. It's actually not Reddit fuels AI. I think the partnerships themselves are great. Having a formal partnership allows us to collaborate more on the integration. Like the integration is inevitable. That's part of my viewpoint on this, right? We are already deeply indexed by Google. And then with Open AI, it's a helpful way of navigating Reddit. And it's a helpful way of discovering Reddit. So I'm glad we have those partnerships. But our thinking is also evolved. And I guess you can kind of see it in the answer, which is the relationship started out as basically dollars for data. Like we have a great business model. Ads is a great business model. Ads will scale on scale on scale. And so important to us is how do we use these relationships to help make Reddit better? So specifically, how do we use these relationships to help people discover Reddit, to find what they're looking for on Reddit, to find their home on Reddit? And if we can do that, then we will help our partners build the best version of their products, which are very searchy. And I think we're seeing how that can go. And that's where these conversations are evolving. So there are other areas where, you know, it's maybe more transactional. Right, we give our data away to researchers. So we're not that precious about it. Like we're pretty, we're actually, all things considered very open. But our belief is commercial usage to require our commercial terms. And that allows us to do these things intentionally. You know, what can the data be used for? You know, what are we both getting out of this relationship? What is the data not used for? I think all of these things are important. And so in other conversations, for whatever reason, I haven't come to terms. And I think that's okay. You know, we may get there yet, but I'd say the goalposts are moving as well in terms of what our expectations are. - The goalposts moving from, this is a big kind of lump sum in exchange for data to it's more dependent on the actual output and how the product shows up in the experience of who you're partnering with. And so it's more, if Reddit's driving, you know, engagement to you, almost like a meter fee. Like, I guess does it just change the way these deals work at a high level? - I think all of these relationships are, you know, the companies are different, right? They have different needs. They're gonna build different things. So it's like, okay, at the end of the day, are we helping Reddit advance its mission? If it's not, then what's the point? If you can help us do that, then we'll help you do, you know, XYZ. And most important is that not hurting Reddit, right? We don't wanna, we wanna help Reddit's fly, we'll go faster and not make it go slower. If we can't do that, it's not that interesting to us because we have a really healthy business model. - But is the cattle to the bag on all the other companies that have and continue to scrape? Like, that's never gonna be fixed or addressed in the way you'd hoped. Like, has the world just moved on? - We will ban and block and continue to advance our defenses. We have a few lawsuits, which is not my preferred way of resolving these things. It is a last resort, but we've gotten to the last resort with a couple of folks. And we'll try to come to a reasonable agreements with everybody's open to having a reasonable agreement. - What about Reddit buying other companies or scale? Do you think you have enough scale where you're at to continue on in the way you wanna continue on or do you think there's opportunities, especially with this AI freak out with the markets or having to combine and join forces and maybe link up with other platforms and get more scale? - I'd say most of our focus is internal, right? We have the content for everybody. I think we have a unique differentiated experience. We fulfill a basic human need. And to Ellis's point, we have a lot of people try out Reddit. I mean, we have a lot of shots on goal. And so my basically obsession is how do we make those folks who are interested in Reddit took the time to download the app, have a great experience. Acquisitions are an opportunity for us. We do have a lot of cash. This is a great business. It throws off a lot of cash. But we're not really looking at how do we use cash to grow. It's more of how do we use acquisitions to bring in great talent or technology that we need? We're not really in the mindset of using our capital to acquire more users at this time. It can be done, and it's been famously done successfully, but some of the companies we aspire to. But at the moment, I think it's more of how do we advance Reddit's mission? So first, invest in our business. Second, you know, possible M&A. - Speaking of cash, last question and we'll let you go. I had read you're a newly minted billionaire. You seem like a different type of CEO. Would you buy yourself any nice treats lately? After 20 years working at the same company? Easy, come, easy go. So I give us something. A new scooter, a windsurfing board. What do we got? Okay, okay. My answer on this a year ago was different. So a year ago, I'd say one of the paradoxes of adulthood. Like when I was a kid, I just lost over gaming PCs. It just never had the best. Like I just always wanted to play the latest game and never had the graphics card or PC to support it. And if you ask me a year ago, I'd say, how many dole, like one of the funnest things to do is like buy brand new computers at hardware when they come out. But I don't enjoy playing games anymore. But that's changed. I just bought a new gaming PC and I've been playing ARC Raiders and it's so fun. - At all the highest settings. I can't even get a screen big enough to max out this thing. So would you, what PC'd you get? Actually got also getting older. A Corsair has like a pre-built desktop that has like the 5090 in it. You know, I used to build PCs, but it's like, what do I like doing better? like playing games or building PCs, like playing games. - Right on. He said that was the last, this is actually the last. Do you have a subreddit right now that-- - Sounds like the arc rate is subreddit. - Underdiscovered that you think people should be checking out. - Well, arc rate is pretty hilarious. Okay, you know, it's a good subreddit when it's indistinguishable from its own circle jerk subreddit. So, arc rateers and arc rateer circle jerk. Like the game is so masterful, you literally cannot tell the difference between these. (laughing) - I lift you those as well. And I follow them both and I could ever remember which is which. - It's so great. I just, I love that dynamic on Reddit. It's like when the real subreddit and the satire subreddit are interchangeable, like you know you're in a special place. - Oh yeah, all right Steve, we appreciate your time. Good to go to the show with you. - Thanks guys. - Thanks Steve. - Bye. - And that is it for this week's show. Thanks to Steve for coming on and don't forget to like, subscribe. Everywhere you get podcasts, we are access.show on the internet. And you can find us in video via access pod on YouTube. - If you like this episode, leave a five star review, please or a thumbs up. - Share it with a friend, it really helps. And you can find my newsletter at sources.news. - You can find my newsletter at nowhere, 'cause I don't have time for that. But you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com. We'll get you one one day. Access is part of the Fox Media Podcast Network and the show is produced by Hooked Creators. Now you won't, bye. - Yes, I will, bye. - Booking.com is the easiest way from a day surrounded by noise. To a state surrounded by nature. That's nice. Go on, book it. It's easy. Booking.com, booking. Yeah. - Fall is the perfect time to refresh and reorganize your space. At the Home Depot, find power tools and tool sets starting at $50 to help tackle DIY projects, home updates, and more. 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