Red, Yellow, Green Flag: Sorting Through the Week 1 Chaos

Welcome to the Wringer WNBA Show. I am joined by Lucas Kaplan. I have bullied him into coming back onto the show after the opening weekend of WNBA Action. We finally got some actual games to talk about. So I'm very excited about that. Lucas, how are you doing? I'm so happy there are actual games back. I wouldn't say you bullied me, but I'll take any appearance I can get, dude. Well, I appreciate you making the time. So a lot of teams have only played one or two games. Yeah. And regardless of that, the internet is ablaze. And that's great. I think we're all a little bit pent up. And now everybody's overreacting a little bit as well. But at the same time, I think some things warrant it, some things don't. I thought in order to weave through all of that, we would play a game of red flag, yellow flag, green flag. You know, we've only a lot of these teams. We've only gotten to see them on one or two dates. You have to analyze a lot of sometimes difficult to parse information. Well, I think sometimes actually the smart take, the sort of galaxy brain take is to say, well, you know, it's way too early. This and that, like you don't want to rush to any judgments. But I do think there's a lot to be learned from small sample sizes. It's just a matter of what you want to extrapolate. Like will Janelle Salon shoot 80% from three the whole year, maybe not. But like, maybe we have things to take away about the Valkyries. I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't say that so definitively about her. She's ridiculous. But I do think there's a lot to learn in small sample size. I agree. Was there a small sample size that stuck out to you? Yeah. The sparks, if you just want to get into it, I would say the sparks kind of a red flag as someone who really liked them preseason, at least for their chances of being good this year. Like, there's a lot of questions about the long-term decision trading, Rikia, Canberrink only played eight minutes. I'm sure we'll get to that. But their whole game, their their first game against the Aces, I would say, maybe, maybe orange. Well, it feels pretty red. It feels pretty red. I think that's fair. I think, you know, sometimes you go on one date and you just don't need to waste your time. You just keep on swiping. I'm gonna go that far. I'm still. Look, we can't wait and see. We can wait and see. They're the one stat that was, I guess, worrying from that game. Like, there were a few. And we're going to talk about the death, which already seems like a pressing issue. They were never the highest assists rate team last year. Kelsey Plum gets in her bag. I get it. 38% of their makes were assisted against the Aces. And that number is obviously going to jump up. I know, only 38%. But it felt like their offense was like, uninspiring to me as someone who just loved it last year. And part of that is obviously them missing shots. But it's like, okay, we're coming down. High pick and roll. All right, we got to switch ISO. Okay, double drags, like not a lot of ball movement. Where's this? I was so impressed by Lynn Roberts five out side to side movement last year. It felt like they rarely got to the third side and got a back cut and got into their second action. So like, in terms of one stat, small sample size stat that worried me. I'd say that, but their whole situation scared me a little bit. Yeah, I mean, they remind me a little bit of the Aces two years ago, where you have four really awesome players. And then you just don't know where you're going to get anything after that. You got Kelsey Plum is doing Kelsey Plum things, right? Neko Gumake had a really good stretch. I think it was a second or third quarter. Second quarter, yeah. Second quarter. That's when the sports looked their best. And it was really they were creating offense out of their defense. Ariel Akins was absolutely insane in that stretch. Getting into help planes, you know, just stunton a ton, just a perimeter ball pressure, forcing turnovers. She was over six from three, which I think I anticipate that is something that will obviously change. But other than that, they had nothing going for them defensively. And this is not a team that I historically, like, at least last year associated with needing their defense to get their offense going. That's a really good point. And you know what is worrisome even about their good defensive stretches is that that is such a taxing way to play in terms of their best possessions. Their best possessions on defense would either be a trap on a ball screen, you know, 30 feet out. And then they're either rotating behind it or forcing, you know, a turnover or occasionally they would just allow the switch, allow a postup, you know, like Melissa Smith to attack Kelsey Plum or even Asia. But now they're sending early help. And it's kind of a double on the block. And now you're rotating out of it. And I have no problem with that. But that's a tough way to play if you don't have a lot of depth. And you look up at the box score at the end of the game and KP is 35 minutes. Neckah has 33 and you lost by what was the 27 points. Yeah. Like that's a lot to ask of a veteran group without a ton of obvious reinforcements. Well, there's a reason that they need to play that way as well. They do have a lot of defend a lot of defenders that they need to protect. They also with Cambrink coming off the bench. They just don't have any room protection in their front line. Three players that played Stayafagan, Cambrink, Chance Gray had zero points, Erica Wheeler had two points, one for 11. Again, something that will change. I don't expect that to, you know, continue to carry on. But you do have some players eight, eight, you have played some players that are just like on the older end of things. But you also have a player and Cambrink who I think has just been put into a really difficult position this season. There's a ton of pressure on her. She only plays eight minutes. She has three turnovers, three personal fouls in that stretch. We know she fouls. But the thing that was a little troubling to me was that usually with Cambrink, like she's she's passionate. She's fiery. She's getting up there. She's trying to protect the rim. These were these were fouls by commission. There are fouls of omission. These were these were like I'm a little bit late here. Granted like first game of the season. That definitely I imagine has some level of impact. But then after the game, Lynn Roberts was asked about why Cambrink didn't play. And she, you know, she took like this, she took a long breath. Kelsey Plum, like, kind of like squeeze her knee. And then she offers this very, no, I'm serious. She's like, she like squeeze Lynn's knee up for it, like to like comfort her. And then Lynn offers this very blunt assessment, which is that we need Cam to produce and bring that defensive energy. She reiterates that we that they have confidence in her. But that word production for a player who while she's heading into her third season, she's functionally played 35 games, less games and, you know, other rookies, you know, that in their in their full seasons. Yeah. Right. And I think we're kind of in this spot with her. We're, you know, injuries have a way of distorting time like her development froze, but the expectations didn't. So now she's gone from being hyped as like the next Anthony Davis to someone that like, I mean, you already have people. It's playing eight minutes. Eight minutes. Yeah. So people are already labeling her as as as a bus. And I think the difficult thing is this spark team has traded themselves into a position where they need their young players, whether it's Cam, whether it's Tyla Watson or Chance Gray, to be able to step up in order to provide any level of depth at all while also having the pressure on them to win and produce results immediately. And that's a very difficult situation to develop in. Well, dude, I get I get Lynn's frustration. I mean, I'm watching the game. And I just, I'm like, get your hands out of there. Like I'm getting mad. Get your hands out of there. And it's, you know, she's defending the drive. She's not even necessarily out of her out of position, but the hand is like reaching across Asia's chest for no reason foul. And then, you know, L Vegas is in the bonus. There's like 30 seconds left. And Cam commits just a terrible over the back foul, like with no chance of getting the offensive rebound, sends them to the line the other way. These things, you know, drive you crazy as a coach and there are things to back to your point. Young players do and Cam is in her third season, but obviously the experience is less than that. And yet, when you're a team trying to win and you have all these veteran players, it does feel like those mistakes are avoidable, even from, you know, someone in Brings position. And it's the lineup construction, like what she has to bring on defense to make up for what will inevitably be a clunkier fit on offense, right? Because if you're going to close, let's say ideally, let's say she's playing a great game with KP and Ariel Atkins, Nekka, Hanby, and Brink. You, Hanby and Nekka have perimeter skills. They can shoot, I get it, but you're sacrificing a little bit there, no matter what, compared to having Ray Borrell out there and then sliding bigs off the spot. So it really just compounds it. Aside from the obvious, yeah, you can't foul when they're in the bonus, 40 feet away, 80 feet away from the basket. We need the defense to be as perfect as possible to make up for what will inevitably hurt our offense a little bit. And then, it's also a spark thing. Their offense wasn't even that good. So it's just, it's nobody's, no one thinks fault, but it doesn't feel great all around. >> The Aces took 30 layups. Do you want to know how many they're made? >> And that's not even including once I got fouled on, right? >> No. >> Okay. >> It's 24. >> 26. >> Damn, well, you know, you kind of led me. >> Oh, it's good. >> Let me there. Thank you. >> 26. >> Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. I would reframe it a little bit. I think that Kim's mistakes are not necessarily avoidable. Yes, they've always been, you know, when she fell as a lot, like just going back to Stanford, it's obviously frustrating. I think the problem is that they hurt more in a context like this, than they would. I know a context like, let's say, a Washington team that went to overtime against a liberty. It hurts less on a Connecticut son or Seattle that also played like a fun game, where players made a ton of different mistakes. But I think this is where I'm a little fearful with the sparks. And again, another team, I was pretty high on them, and I don't want to completely, this is probably the most panicky one. They're going to win by a 40 next game. They're going to win by 50. >> Yeah, yeah, and look, they were disappointed with it. Like they know, you know, but I think the issue for me is that, aside from developing in a pressure cooker, I think that the biggest risk when you rush your timeline to a title is that it also forces rushed evaluations as well. And the jury is still out on whether that will be the case with Rukia Jackson. And my worry becomes whether that eventually becomes the case with Cameron Brink as well. >> Well, you can't stress it. >> You already have people that are like making up fake traits for her in the league. >> Yeah, and I get it, but the thing is to your point, the sparks can't stress test her abilities. They can't put her in different situations and decide, well, can she be this delay hub at the top of the key and run handoffs or was she more of a corner three point shooter? What do we have there? Is she sitting dunker spot? You can't really develop a big sample of her in these different positions, especially when the offense is a little bit more vague. We don't know exactly what her ideal role is going to be. Well, too bad, you got to find one, and you got to stick to it right now if the timeline is accelerating. And that's why I get the fake traits. I hate to sound so panicky. I'm glad that we're going to get less panicky over the course of this pod. But I get putting her in the trade machine if you're on another team. That's a monotable situation. >> It is absolutely a monotable situation. You make a great point there because I think one of the things that makes Cam so exciting is she's very elastic as far as the possibilities go with her. She could become a great three point shooter. She could potentially be the type of player who has a ton of gravity down low as well. But yeah, you don't have the ability to actually figure out what that looks like right now. It's almost like Cam would be the perfect player to send to if they had the depth for it, to send to if the WNBA had a g-league. And let her really get rapid out and sort it out there because there is a ton of potential there. I'm certainly nowhere close to being in a place where I want to give up on what she can be. However, I mean, I'm almost kind of like Rikia, who is a great debut, maybe for her, there's a better context as well for her. At this point, it sucks for her too. >> Well, we'll see. It's still so early and they're going to need her, which is a positive as well. >> Well, that's a positive as well. >> The other thing Lin said, it's a positive, but it's also a negative. >> Yes, it's a positive, but the flip side of it, if it doesn't work out, is a lot more daunting than if they were going to win 18 games this year, 15 games. I love that I would, the reaction to sending a number two overall pick to the G-League three years in. You just, the world would burn. It's funny you want to see that. >> Well, the world would burn, but at the same time, like sometimes you make a decision like that, knowing that it's going to be a big headline, but it might pay off for you later. I think the way that the G-League's particularly in the NBA has been utilized as of late. Like you see, you see all kinds of talented players go down there, it's not. The other thing is that I wish they had, they just don't have a lot of very depth is like, it's like, they tried. I wanted to bring this up. They tried a little bit of Wheeler, KP, Ariel Atkins lineup, right? Which is already small. And then you think about other potential depth pieces. They got tonight lots in there. But with this guard room and a lot of small guards, like how many of them, and overlapping skill sets, how many of them are you going to play at the same time? And to that point, right? The first time out after that lineup was put in, the Aces run a set play and they get an empty pick and roll between Jackie and Asia, knowing that the Sparks are probably going to trap it. And they do, because that's been their only hope in pick and roll. And Jackie gets rid of it quick to Asia on the slip. And who's like the low man meeting her at the rim? It's Kelsey Plum. Who has to wrap her up. And it's just like, oh man, now you got, you know, if it wasn't KP, it could have been Wheeler in that position. Or you know, it could have been Ariel Atkins, who great defender, but I don't know if she's your weak side, you know, your low man. So, yeah, like they have a lot of positional overlap, which compounds maybe a lack of depth. They, well, Jackie Young had a fantastic passing game. The other thing that the Aces did, the first play of the game was a post-up design to target Kelsey Plum, who was actually turned herself into a pretty good defender at everything else. But that's where the size limitations really get her. And obviously the Aces know that better than everybody else. So Becky Hammond after they was, you know, this is part of the reason you can't overreact. Like the Aces lost in a blowout against the Mercury and then they came out and blew out the Aces and the first play was like, yeah, we're just going to, we're just going to guarantee a bucket out of the, out of the first play. Hey, the Aces have earned, you know, an infinite amount more of grace and whatnot. Like it doesn't, you know, they're then losing by 30 on opening night. Hey, do we want to talk about Kennedy Carter? Yeah, let's do. I mean, the Aces losing by 30 on opening night is just something that they do when they win a race, right? Like they lose when Asia Wilson gets her MVP. I think a lot of it is just like there are, they have gone through a lot of high voltage, high electricity moments in the last few years and they generally come out a little bit flat after them. And I don't know if there's anything that you can do about that. I think maybe that's a tax you pay for having so many awards nights. Yeah, that'll, it's a good tradeoff to have. Yeah, I think anybody else would take it. But yes, I would love to talk about Kennedy Carter. This might be my overreaction the other way. I am very, very high on the marriage between Kennedy Carter and Becky Hammond thus far. I think they're still, I think it's still a, I think they might be engaged. I don't know if they're, I don't know if they're a marriage. Well, this is truly like when we stick with the dating metaphor, they're technically only on their second date. I'm thinking some, some, some pale green flags, green flags, you know, maybe we're not fully there yet, but I mean, listen to the first. We're going to tell your parents about it yet, but no, no. But maybe you can tell your parents that you're, you have plans tonight. Yeah, you know, you got plans tonight. Give him a little, when I, when my parents are being good all, give him a little nugget here and there. Yeah. What a good daughter. That's very nice. Thank you. I, I was wide that game against the Sparks. First, Kennedy Carter possession, baseline out of bounds play. And she imbounds it to Asia at like 18 feet, you know, in the corner, kind of a short corner, comes off a handoff. And now she has all this space and she's only 18 feet away from the Vaskin. Yeah, I know she's not a great three point shooter, but she's already inside the arc. You can't really press up on her. It's like a drive to the rim and a little floater. That's like, fuck, dude, this is going to be tough. Well, she just doesn't really need that much space. I think like she, she by virtue of her explosiveness is a spacing threat when she has a ball in her hands or is even one pass away because if you're not there, she'll just use that head of steam to blow past you. Yeah, and she's had a couple plays where it's, you know, a stampede. She catches it and she's already on the move or, and I don't mind her, you know, like catching it inside the three point arc. If she's going to use the catch and go, yeah, it's just like, you know, shit, I don't know how else to say it. Though when you're dealing with the aces and you're dealing with all of these threats and then you have, Kennedy Carter, I mean, what else do you need to say about this? 20 points. Yeah. She's played 19 minutes. 38 total minutes and scored, I think 30 total Total points, 31 total points, something like that. Pretty good. - So almost a point a minute. She also, she just doesn't need a screen. And that allows her to do a lot of different things that allows her to really thrive in the small guard lineups that they, this mobile guard heavy lineups that they put out there. I was really, so I was at the Sparks game and I asked Becky Hammond about Kennedy Carter after and one of the things that she mentioned that I thought was interesting was that, she thinks that she can do a lot of different things with her defensively, eventually as well, that she just thinks that there's so much potential there and it really just got me thinking about Jackie Young, another really athletic guard who has turned herself into someone who can at times guard one from four, one of the best shop blocking guards, maybe the best shop blocking guard, and it was to make a catchings exist that we have ever seen. And if I'm Kennedy, I'm kind of like, I'm looking around me and I'm like, okay, on the one hand, look, I've been kind of banished from the WNBA for the last year. However, I get back on the court and I am playing on the team that won the title and I fit, I fit alongside multiple time all stars. There I say, like I have more talent than some of those multiple time all stars. - It's a choice, it's a choice to fit, you know? It's an active choice. - Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And I wonder how long, like she was asked about kind of what it takes to have that patience. And she said, you know, she said it's hard, but she's doing the right things. And like, I do think that this might be like, the right alchemy, it's like the right culture, the right coach, the right context. Like the coach who knows how to get the most out of her and has like, we've seen it. Like, there's proof of that on the team. Like, she can look to Melissa Smith. She can look to like what she can be in a Jackie Young. Like, there is a blueprint here. - I will say, Melissa had a great game against the Sparks, you know, some files, she was great. And it feels like they have a lot more space, like in this season, I mean, just two games, at least in that game. Like, again, just a lot of space for drivers. And you could see, Melissa, really, you know, second year with this team get a little bit more comfortable. And, you know, I've been critical, we've all been critical of what happens if you run your offense, you know, through Melissa to any real extent. But all of a sudden, you know, she has a little bit of space and a one-on-one with 12, you know, 12 feet out, she's at the rim. Like, she has space to one move, a spin move, you know, offensive rebound. She was just a, in a similar-ish vein to Kennedy Carter, you're dealing with these main threats. - Yeah. - And all of a sudden now, you have ancillary players that are hurting your pain, that are getting to the rim. And it's just scary when they're clicking. And yet, you know, I know they lost by 30 on, on opening night. But, man, yeah, that's Barck's game of scary. - It was scary. I mean, like, what does Becky Hammond do coming out of the first half, too, right? Neckogumi has a great second quarter. So, Becky Hammond decides, and this is like, this is having like, putting your kind of like, playbook where your mouth is. Like, you can say you have confidence in your players. You can also say, hey, Nolissa Smith, you're gonna go toe-to-toe with Neckogumi K right now. The first few players that we're gonna run are gonna be you posting her up, or you want the role against them. We're gonna isolate her, you guys on two-man action. And you're basically just gonna out-fysical her. And she did. - Putting your playbook where your mouth is. I like that, I think. Putting your playbook where your mouth is. - There's probably like, we can probably replace a mouth with something else. - You're putting the playbook where your podium. - No, no, no, you had it the first time. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - You're gonna have to work, you're gonna have to work. - I just liked it, I just liked it, it was good. - Thank you. - Yeah, impressive, scary. I don't care that they really lost by 30 on opening night. And then, you know, the Mercury turn around and lose, they're an X-game. So, these are these early season results, man. It gets wonky and, you know, ripe for overreactions. So, I think we're at a red flag so far, and a green flag. - Yeah, all right, let's get to a yellow flag. - A yellow flag. - A couple of yellow flags. So, Indiana. - Okay, okay, yeah. - Indiana every time, well, every time they lose a game, with Caitlyn Clark on the court, they break the internet, right? Like, that's just, I mean, I think the fans expect a win. I think for everybody else, there's a sense of like, showing a fraud to it as well. I wanna pump the brakes a little bit. I understand, there's a lot of things that you can critique about the Indiana front office had concerns about their front court depth going into the season. They just seem to not scout internationally at all. And when you, like, are top heavy, it really helps you to do that. And we'll discuss with the Liberty later, right? However, at the same time, you had Caitlyn Clark coming, like, playing her first professional game in like 200 days, or something like that. You have Lexi Health Hall on a minutes restriction. You have Alia Boston coming off of injury. You don't even have Monique Billings, you don't even have Tate Harris. Functionally, like, the only healthy player in your starting line, like, the only player that you see, like, even Kelsey Mitchell ended the season like with, like, a horrific medical issue. So, that was just like a classic, like, it's game one. They didn't play any defense in the first half. You can definitely critique Caitlyn's shot selection and, you know, I certainly will. If she makes that three, if Kelsey Mitchell makes that three, we go to overtime and, like, nobody's talking about any of this. So, for me, let's get into the yellow flags, but I'm definitely even, even, let's say, even a, it's a yellow light. It's a yellow light. We're getting close, like, we're just gonna pump the brakes that's the yellow light. - Yeah, and, you know, they shot 29% from three. Dallas shoots 52% from three. They still score 104 points or whatever it was. Tremendously fun game. You know, kind of like a wings coming out party. So, I get it. And yet, there are reasons for it to be yellow. The main one for me and perhaps developing into a trend, something I'm really gonna be looking for this year. So, she's Caitlyn shot O of 10 on off the dribble jumpers. - Yo, this is exactly where I was gonna go. This is a crazy mind melt. Okay, you go ahead. - Nice, what do you think? She's taking, she's taking 400 off the dribble jumpers in her career, per synergy. What do you think she's true shooting on them? - Wait, what's, is that including Iowa? - No, no, no, just in the pros, in the pros. Okay, I'm not gonna translate into true shooting, but I'll give you my 3.0 percentage on it. I'm gonna guess 24%. - No, no, it's better than that. - Okay, 30. - She's true shooting. She's true shooting 43 and a half percent, which, if it were true, her 3.0 percent though. - Well, that would be just about, if there are some twos mixed in there, but that would be 29% about if they were all threes. - Okay, yeah, all right. - And then so you mix in some long twos, obviously a point less valuable. But about, that translates to about 29% from three in her career, on off the dribble jumpers, or about 30% from three. And Sabrina Yanescu has had this problem last year, where incredible shooter talent wise. Kaylen is obviously beyond reproaches, just a pure shooting talent. But when the looks are of a certain quality, and she doesn't really shoot a lot going right, as we know off the dribble, all of a sudden, defense is say, you know, we can switch this actually. And if you wanna take a, between, between, step back, 28 footer against Lana Smith, like, I think we're gonna live with it. And actually, yeah, if you set that ball screen 40 feet up the floor, like, I think we're just gonna be in drop. And if you make a really tough running three, - Yeah. - You know, we'll shake your hand. And so, we'll talk, turnovers is, or what everyone's gonna be talking about. But that, to me, is maybe a bigger story, and something to look for this year, which is she was a pretty good off the dribble shooter her rookie year, dealt with injuries last year. Not great. And then, you know, over 10, it's one game, starting this year. She's not the explosive isolation player to just burn switches and live at the cup all the time. Especially if you know that you can give a late contest on a jumper, you don't have to be all up in her space. So, her game, she just can't afford to be an average off the dribble shooter. And I know the looks are crazy, but at some point, like, the efficiency has to go up, you know? - Yeah, I think, I mean, to me, it goes back to the conversation around her on the ball, versus off the ball, right? Like, there is this perception that, well, Caitlin does score in bunches a lot, right? Like, that's part of what makes her appointment viewing is like, if you miss a shift, like you might miss the entire flurry, right? And that's what happens coming into the second half, right? But what's the difference with those two shots? She made two threes, right? Off the catch. - Off the catch, both of them. One of them was set up by Stephanie White. The other one was off it, off of an offensive rebound. All the other misses were off the dribble. And yeah, she's typically like a good shooter on the pick and roll going to the left. However, she's over dribbling in these contexts. More so than she was in the past. So it kind of looked like ISO 3s. And I went back and looked at, like, going back to Iowa and Indiana as well. - Okay. Caitlyn's like, oh my God, I had this somewhere. Mommy calculating it and then losing it. Hold on, give me one sec. - Did you calculate it through like Google? Like just typing in, you know, 129 divided by 300? That's what I do. - I just, well, I use like the calculator on my. - All of like 10 tabs open just of random numbers and division problems. But while Sierra looks this up, I-- - Okay, I got it, actually. Sorry, no, okay, wait, go ahead, go ahead. - No, no, no, go ahead, you know. - So she's going back to Iowa, 32% on ISO3s. If you isolate, pun intended for her Indiana career, 20% on ISO3s in the WNDA. - Right, and that would include like, pick and roll is probably that are switched and then you attack the switch. If I assume a lot of those get tracked that way. And to your point, I mean, we've seen her make incredible threes off movement and stuff. There was a play, if anybody wants to look it up, it was, where was it? It was about 545 left in the second quarter where she drives, kicks out to the three and then doesn't re-space to the opposite corner. So she drives, skips it, doesn't re-space to the opposite corner. And if she had the ball swings back that way anyway, it probably gets a catch and shoot three. But instead she just kind of stands there after the pass to the corner. The swing swing goes nowhere, Dallas recovers and then she like gets back out to the three point lines like, okay, give me the ball reset. So great, you've just driven. You've just made a good skip pass. The ball isn't swing, swing, swing. And yeah, it takes effort to get back out to that weak side corner, but because you didn't, the advantage didn't result in anything. And you've effectively just killed 12 seconds, 10 seconds of the shot clock. And now you're probably going to have to spend the last eight seconds of the shot clock dribbling around and taking a tough shot. >> Well, it's an exhausting way to play too. >> Yeah. >> And I think part of this is also, they obviously want to play her off the ball a little bit more. They drafted Raven Johnson for a reason. They have a back-up point guard and tie hair as well. So you know, grinds, it didn't really get to see her out there. I think she's got to relearn probably how to move off the ball. I think that's something that she was excellent at in Iowa. And it's something that, you know, for some reason when she's gone to the WNB. And maybe it's because it's more of a pick and roll heavy league. And she's really lean into that. She's just become a little bit more of an ISO player. And that's not really her strength, however I will say, so go ahead. >> No, and in the full court, you see it because she's this, the defensive rebounding plus outlet passing, hit ahead passing, is so awesome. >> Yeah. >> And brings up her regular season value by like a ton. And it's like, this is like, some days she damn near looks like Magic Johnson light, you know? >> No for sure. >> She bound and wore out. >> Yeah. >> And it's quick hitting and it's ball event and it's like everything that you would want. And if you could translate some of the stress that puts on a defense to the half court, that's kind of the eternal search, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> And not for nothing. Yes, she had five turnovers. Not one of them was a bad pass turnover. >> No, I mean, a lot of them was like the offensive fouls and things like that. >> Getting ripped. >> Handle is a little loose. That's part of that. >> That's part of coming back. >> That was also why to see Sims being awesome. >> True. >> Absolutely. Credit to Dallas too. I don't want to start. >> Oh, I see. We'll talk about Dallas next, for sure. >> Green ass flag. >> Oh, the greenest. The thing I'll say is like, you know, I'm seeing the people like, well, Caitlin hasn't improved anything since her rookie year, I think let's pump the brakes, guys. She's not like an ISO, like going to be you off the, like, having like this incredible step player, but she's getting to the rim. She's getting to the rim quite easily. And a lot of what she's done, preseason, regular season, has been getting, like, getting there by being stronger than, and taller than other players. I also wonder if some of this is also a function of like, it's almost like the cam question, right? You see the sort of baseline post-up way against a regain. That's obviously not a good shot. However, part of player development, skill development, is like working through some of that uncomfortable stuff as well. She is also a player who is in her third year in the league as well. So like, they're hard going to be growing pains that come with that. She's not a finished product. She is, you know. >> And how to brutal stop start, like, rhythm of last year at the injuries, not really conducive to growth. Yeah, the one thing I think people would like to see, and I would like to see more of, is a little bit pace, more pace getting downhill, like that play when she may have committed to charge on his eye jams and was like, you've been flopping off of a game or whatever. >> And funny thing is, that one was a foul, like, on, on Kaylen or on his eye. >> That should've been on Kaylen, and then like, there were a couple before that, like, yeah, I think it was on the side. >> Yeah, I think it was on the side. >> I think it was going to get used to too. Like, they're going to legislate to push off off of her game. >> But on that play, if you look at it, coming downhill, she just has an opportunity to put his eye, I'm pretty sure it was his eye, and not Odyssey Sims. I'd have to go back and look in, in jail, on her back, on her right hip, and slow down and it's really like the Dunker spot, maybe a floater, maybe a dump off, but instead, this kind of urge to zoom to the rim, she stops, comes back right, because she wants to finish with her right hand. We know, like, not a ton of finishing left, and also that is her driving style anyway, to explode past people, and then puts herself in a position where that could've been an offensive foul. So I think that's the sort of development that you really would want to see. What a coach has always tell you when you're 10 years old, fast to the paint, slow when you get there. She's obviously an all-world player, and I don't need to explain too much of it to Caitlin and her fans. But that is the sort of development that's going to be crucial, I think. >> That in between stuff is important for sure. >> Yeah, yeah, and I think that's achievable, too, this year, to get a little bit more of that. I think mute some of that criticism, where's the improvement, blah, blah, blah. >> Yeah, absolutely. All right, so yellow flag there, green flag for Alia Boston, by the way, Alia Boston. >> Oh, so good. So good. I feel bad. We just did the whole thing. We didn't talk about Alia, but so good, hitting the three, like just the driving to post-up stuff, and when she has too much space, it's just over for you, the defense is just great. She's so good. >> She's so close to the rim. She's so good, dude. And that's like, you're talking about Atlanta Smith and Jess Shep, and she's just like, whatever. >> Yeah, yeah, and running and transition. >> Yeah. >> The fitness is so good. >> Yeah, it's taking the ball out of the bucket and like going through, yeah. >> Yeah, just end to end, to playing that style. It is so not easy to play the way they want to play when you're big, and when you've been used to. I mean, it seems crazy to think about like two years ago, it's like, man, how's Alia going to adjust to, you know, send screens 30 feet from the basket and running this much and transition and diving instead of posting up, it's like just fine, actually, she's going to be awesome. >> Yeah, she's great. She's great. >> Yeah. >> Are you want to talk about Dallas? >> They're really, really, if I can good, dude, or at least fun on offense, especially. >> Really fun. >> Really fun. >> Yeah, it feels natural to start with Paige, 20 point performance, 10 shots, 4 assists, game-hide plus eight, super cash, game-hide plus eight. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Pretty even. >> That was a close game. >> Yeah, it's true. >> Yeah, I made a video and I wrote a little bit about it this pre-season, but like I watched their pre-season, I was like, oh, yeah, dude, this is the stuff, like chasing space, early actions, like getting Paige into some advantageous positions quickly. It is so not the, hey, come get me a screen, I'm at the top of the key. There's only, now there's only 14 left on the shot clock and like, I'm going to dribble around and make something out of nothing. Like they are going and it is fun early and it's so advantageous to her and also she obviously is the driver of offense still, but she benefits from a friendly context, which like, I don't think I said that about Dallas last year. >> No, absolutely not. You can have said that about Dallas last year. And as much as she is the driver of offense, I do have to appreciate the way they slowplay her and the patients that she has and the patients that like Jose Fernandez has for that to happen as well, right? Like they end up starting, they start Odyssey Sims. >> Right, I was going to say this while they start Odyssey. >> Yeah. >> Like they don't want her just like on the ball all the time and look, like I get to certain places where I start to ask myself a question, like, why is the pick and roll my straw not demanding picks? Like why is the most efficient isolation player in the league isolating so little? Like I certainly have questions like that, but like the more you watch them, the more like they kind of like make those questions look really stupid. >> Right, that's because we're greedy and gluttonous and like we just want our desires filled instantly. >> No, yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Like page Dallas, there are just some masters of delayed gratification in this context. >> Yeah, and I totally understand that, you know, the reasoning behind starting Odyssey, because when you don't want the offense to start with you know, high pick and roll and page, maybe you want to start with like her coming off an away screen and getting that screener to roll and starting your offense that way or an early flair or like early, you know, zoom action and she can slip out of it or whatever that getting a little bit more ballhandling on the floor to help ease her and spring her into these early advantages. That's just again, what I really have liked about their preseason and again against Indiana and, you know, again, it helps her lean into those off ball gifts that we talked about on the other side, like, she goes back door, she finishes the cut if she's getting rejected and their offense moves on to the next thing. Like, no, completely. It's all it's great. One of my favorites was like I think two minutes left in the game, three minutes left in the game. Like, this just like was brain-sickling like ASMR for like basketball and junkies coated stuff. But it's what a sense to play where they need they need to kill clock, right? Like they're up a little bit. And Paige gets a pick and roll, Alia Boston switches onto her. And it looks like Boston's like going to paint her into a corner here where like Becker's is going to have to take a step back made Ranger like some sort of step back and she's either going to make it or miss it. She gives a ball up to Jessica Shepherd and in that second or like come on or you can ball up, right? But then Boston goes back to Shepp and Paige relocates the wing. Shepp finds her. Then you think she's going to take the three. Boston gets to her and then you don't even think there's enough time. Like this whole action started with like five seconds off in the shot clock. And it's like you have to take the three. No, she's going to pump fake and she's going to get the MIDI. And it was just beautiful. Like it goes against all of my sort of like basketball programming as far as like what I expect players to do in those positions. But like she just manipulates time in such a way that like it's like I'm never you can never really guess it makes her really tough cover. And she's just never she's always playing at her own pace. Like she's got a metronome in her head. Like she just knows how much time she needs. I know there certainly could be a pace page sort of nickname or or pun or joke that someone has to make that whose job it is to do such things. By the way Shepp, I just such a good fit there. Like in terms of providing the North South dynamism that you need running the floor and transition diving hard. You know, my favorite sequence not to like just recount plays to to everybody. But like page is in the empty corner and is coming off a handoff and rejects it back doors it easy pull up. Next time they're coming down similar situation. Handoff in the corner in the empty corner. Okay, now we we don't want to get back cut. We're going to let her go over get the ball. The big defender kind of hedges out in anticipation. Shepp fake dribble handoff to the rim gets fouled by Misha Heinz Allen. It's like you need that North South component in this offense from especially your bigs as divers rim runners. The whole thing fake DHO and Shepp rings it and then it's it's just really valuable for them. I think she's going to be really good there. Yeah, she will. I mean the fake DHO there so good also because like so often it is a real DHO and she's elite at that like nine nine assists bringing out to three point shooters like just what a great pick up. Yeah. And if you want to jam her, she's going back door. Yeah, you can't win. That's that's the beauty of it. And then I guess we can talk about AZ yellow flag or is it is it even too early to do flags? I think I might skip because I mean by the time when people listen to this they're going to play another game. Okay, let's just let's just I don't want to we don't need to do this whole thing. There's more to talk about. We have a lot to talk about. Well, you want to do next. Like I think I was particularly I uh Liberty. Let's say it's a time to talk Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Both games. I watch both. I do my job. Nice. That's here it. Well, you start. So do you have any like weird flags with them? Like do you have any like or is it just it's it's I think they are above and maybe it's just because I cover them day and day out. It's hard for me to put a flag on it. But it's not what you want in terms of the injury injuries and later riving players that they've started their season with. Right. Okay, new coaching staff, folder coaching staff. Well, no, Andrew way to still here. But new coaching staff, new offensive principles. A abbreviated training camp. And you know, all Christa Marco has talked about is like man, it gets quick. It's going to be a slow build. Like we it's going to take all season. Now Sabrina's out. Satu hasn't played. Rebecca Allen hasn't played. Leonie Fibic and Raquel Carrera who they have stashed overseas. But expect to contribute this season. The Spanish league finals haven't even started yet. So they're not going to be playing till the end of the month. And it's like oh man, this is not the way that you want to implement a new system and build continuity. And yet two and a it feels good. The vibes are as good as they can be for despite the injuries. I've been a big fan of what I've seen from the offense. Like I think this the early returns have been very good. And in the meantime, they just have to stack wins, you know, try to get all these players back. The worry though is like, you know, Stewie played 39 minutes in that Washington game. And I know it went to overtime. It's like, this is what you have to avoid. This is probably what, you know, burned her out in her MVP year when they lost to the aces in the finals. So it's good. It's good so far. But it's just they're only scratching the surface of what they want it to be. So it's tough for me to even, you know, sign fly to it. So that makes I mean, what is what's your kind of outsider perspective on it? I would say two and a with all those injuries. And also just the way that this like French back court is playing together is a huge green flag. Pauline is just throwing up like wrong footed layups off the top of the square and then she's tough. She's fighting. She's one of the, yeah. And you know, it really does feel like this offense. Crystal markers talked a lot about how much he loves marine and trust Pauline already. And when they come down the court and you can see the liberty kind of execute their wheel spacing principles and get into, you know, a dribble handoff. And there's just a ton of space. These players have the freedom to attack and are encouraged to break down their defender. And it just feels so far like a lot more open, open for them. And, you know, Pauline's obviously a great addition in that context. But this is the antithesis of what it felt like was dragging them down last year. Like, what are we doing? Why is there no space? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, you look back at training camp like all the talk about simplifying things. I think that there's just an understanding that there's a lot of talent on this team. You don't have to complicate things even with all of these players out. Like, I think we're meeting someone that you just want to like cook. Like she runs, she'll like, she just makes the game so much faster. Like, she'll take the ball out of the basket, like start running a dribble handoff like from, you know, three to four. And she might shoot it from there. And she might. And she might. And she might. And she's a great shooter. And you know what? Like, I mean, she's like, she's a hilarious player. Like, she's a better shooter guarded than she is unguarded. Like, I most wonder if the Zeg is just lever open. Like, I don't even know what you do with her sometimes. Once you get past like the one, like, guaranteed mind-melting turnover that it just doesn't even make sense per marine game, then it's like, then your home, then your home free. Exactly. And, and yeah, she, she is, you can tell, like, it's so early, but it really does, if you've watched this team a lot, and her minutes a lot over the past few seasons, like, just feels like she's space to cook. It feels like a new beginning. It feels like the same most improved player campaign, although I'm adding a couple people, a couple people onto that list as we go through the pod, but, um, I mean, I just don't, I just don't think that she's been like free and like this before, you know, and she's putting up 20 point games. We know what she can do as a passer and a shooter. There's, we've seen, we've seen it overseas. Like, there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to put it all together here, um, especially like, what's Sabrina being out now? Maybe, maybe like, once everyone's healthy, that context changes, uh, but right now it's sort of, I don't like, it's her awesome run. Just, it is true. Does the ringer have an internal pool of like, whoever brings up awards discussion earliest in the season, like, gets a pot? Is that like a cross hole? There's like, there's a, we get like a bonus, basically, for every time we bring it up. Like, that's what we did. I was doing the preseason. I was doing it in the preseason. Wow. This is adding to my list. I already have. That's special. I have Jade Melbourne. I have, um, Janelle Salon, Iliana Rupert was, was going to be on there. I'm adding a Nissan Moro on there, who I thought about adding in the preseason. who else do I have in Seattle, obviously, Malonga, Zaya Cook. This is, I've been doing this for a while. I'm not new to this. I'm true to this. Game. Hey, game recognized game. And it's good. You recognize a lot of game. And Marine, it just is like the way they, when they get into their early offense and they have, you know, a fairly, you know, it's becoming more and more defined flow offense side to side. One, there was a viral clip on, I think Miles Ehrlich tweeted it where Chris DiMarco is clapping before, like, as she's getting into her shot and he's doing this stuff. He's doing this stuff. Yeah. As she's taking a pull up three, like, you know, just expressing a ton of approval. And if I recall correctly, I might be wrong. But I think that play came out of just their flow offense on the first side. So they're bringing it down and the ball hasn't even been reversed. They're not into anything else yet, but Marines, like, oh, I'm shooting this. Like I'm open right now. I'm not, I don't even need to reverse it. And that is just such a, like why I'm open. We did it. We, this is the possession we wanted. We got the shot. Simplify. Simplify. Simplify. Simplify. Like Marine, it's like shoot the ball, like, like, go do something. Like come on. Trust yourself. And that possession felt very, I'm like screaming in my room right now. That possession just felt very instructive as to why it feels good right now, despite all the stuff. And also, John Quell, not huge lines. I thought she was like just dominant and engaged on defense in that first game. And in that second game, honestly, before all the fouls caught up to her. Yeah. And I want to get to John Quell on a second. I think what you bring about the offense is very interesting. And I think it sort of gets to this contradiction, right, where with the Sandy Brindello offense, there's always this sort of thing of like, well, the liberty to run their offense so that they can get the ball to everybody on the floor. And, you know, they don't get caught up in playing like one on one, right? And like we'd always talk about like their good games, their assists numbers, things like that. Their record with John Quell is sort of like the barometer of how much the ball is actually moving. Right. And it makes me think of what Sabrina said during training camp, which is like, sometimes when you have that many actions set up, like you are kind of overthinking, right? Like you're like, I need to get the ball here and get the ball there. We have like players like them that are great at creating advantages and know how to make plays. You don't have to do too much. Just let them play because they want to like, that was always one of the things I was really confusing to me about the liberty too is like, like they don't have players that I think of as like naturally unselfish, you know, like, so we can do a little bit of everything it wants to. John Quell is one of the best big man, big woman hasters in the WNBA. Sabrina is a point guard, right? Like it's like not a team that you should have to like really force them to figure out how to play together. Like that, a lot of that should have always felt a little bit more intuitive. And I think that this is unlocking something intuition. And I would write about it last year, the barometer for when it wasn't going well is Sabrina and Stewie would have like half of the team shot attempts in a given game. Yeah. Because what are we doing in Stewie Bay, I'll say like Sabrina needs to take a tough shot at the end of the clock. But yeah, that being said, Washington, I'm in. I like it. I like what they're doing. So Stewie talked about the fouls after the game, right? Oh, yeah. And I'm not going to get too much into like the refs or anything like that. That's another thing where I'm like, let's just give it an apple size. I don't think that we can like simultaneously be as mad as we were last year and then be like this upset when they've over corrected after the first weekend. If it looks like this in in in three weeks, we'll talk, but yes, yes, yes. Like Washington is going to foul players out. That's just like we're going to do all season like they got. Yeah, I mean, they got they got they got JJ, right? And like they just have done such a good job, I think with Shakira Austin and Kiki, despite the fact that they don't have a lot of like three point spacing, spacing them out together in a way where like a they're great face up players. It's really hard to double players on what when they're facing up. And Georgia Amor just kind of knowing what button to push at the same time Shakira Austin just being in incredible shape. The ball handling has improved. This is the best that she's ever looked another MIP candidate and really playing through her strengths as well. She's playing from higher up as well. She's playing starting out a lot of these drives in the three point line and she's so explosive. And with the tighter handles, it's just really hard to deal with her. So if you go with them, you're going to get out. Yeah. I've been sorry to cut you off. I've been so impressed by how much space they've created for her driving the ball. Like from the slot from the corner, she has, she had, she drove the ball a ton through two games. I didn't count how many drives she actually had. I would guess like two dozen, like that we're trying to score the rock if not more. You know, you know, only three turnovers. And I think one of those turnovers that she's had is like an illegal screen. There's just so much space for her. And I was worried. And what we're all worried about is kind of right, there was a lack of shooting. And would there be enough space? And yet I think so far they've answered that concern. And then I thought Kiki was just so commendable in that win over Toronto. Hey, we're not running a ton of stuff for you today. You have to cut off the perimeter like you have to space. You have to fill our spacing principles. And you have to crash the glass and be a dog like filling in behind the low man to get to the paint and get a board or cut. And she was like, all right, I'll do that. I'll grab seven offensive rebounds. I'll be just like a monster on the glass. And then that game against the Liberty. She's a little bit more featured. She's a little bit more in screening and early post up actions. And I think she had like a 20 and 10 double double. Yes. I just, you know, it feels like maybe this, the fit could be weird, but man, I've been just so impressed by both of them and the coaching staff through two games. And the other thing that I was thinking, what all of their collective inexperience does, it actually makes like the hierarchy and the building of optionality kind of easy, you know? Well, Sidney Johnson is also just really good at that. Like he knows where to put all the chess pieces so that everybody's putting a position to succeed. So it doesn't even feel like there's much of a hierarchy. I was telling Liberty people, like, yeah, they just destroyed the sun, but they're going to have a real game against the mystics, like it's going to be really hard. And then the first possession of that game, they get an off ball action for Sonya and forces a switch kind of like what we were talking about with Paige. She wasn't just bringing it up. She comes off, you know, a wide pin down on a way screen and forces the switch, Kiki's the screener. Kiki dives. Now she's posting up Marine, the Liberty, like, help on the, on the backside. Someone comes over. They skip the ball across the court, open, open look, miss. But Kiki, of course, offensive rebound, ball swung back out towards Shakira Austin. Wide open three. If she wants to take it, we've seen her shoot a few. She drives it. Tough lefty layup. It's like, okay. One possession. They're going to be good today. Like, they're here. They just got it, you know, they just got it. And it feels like also Sonya had what, 26 in that first game, what do you have? Yeah. 26. She, it felt like she was barely like touching the rock in the first half, you know, or the first three quarters. Then you look up and oh, shit, she's nine of 15 or whatever she is. It just, it felt very natural. She's getting hers in the flow. The one thing is that you can see Georgia and Rory are a little bit hampered by the lack of size. So it's tough for them when they get in the paint to like make a skip pass or find an advantage on the other side of the court. It's hard to be small, but you know, Rory struggled with turnovers at the very least Georgia gets to two feet. She may not see it, but she's keeping it moving. She's getting a two feet reset. We're getting into something else. Yeah. They're probably the ones suffering the most from the lack of spacing. I would, I would be interested to see them like in some lineups where, you know, I think, they can, with their most ideal spacing lineups like scroung something together to kind of create a little bit more space for them because I think I do think that Washington's been pretty intentional about like, like they're not starting Lauren beds, right? Like they're, they're, they're having her and Shakira Austin come in for each other. And I think part of that is like, you know, starting cast Prosper so that Shakira and Kiki can have that space and then beds will play with Dougalies who she has experience with from UCLA as well. Like they've just done a good job of like, yes. All of like the sort of make like it to have to have it flow and make like the rotation make this much sense early on. Although I will say I think they're like two minutes where beds Shakira and cast were on at the same time and they grab all of their available rebounds on the, on the core of it. So that I'm sure that was pretty funny dude. Yeah. Hey, I, I, I looked up three stats I think will improve like they were, I think the third worst offense of rebounding team last year. They might be the best this year. They grab 23% well Atlanta exists. They grab 23% of available boards last year on offense. So far such small sales size, whatever up to 34% and it's felt like day. and they're on the glass. They had a quarter of out of their shots come from three last year by far lowest in the league. About 35% so far should have been like mediocre, three point attempt rate. And then they were 11th in pace last year. They're playing fast. And their half court possessions can get bogged down because there's not a lot of like, you know, shooting and a ton of offensive talent like around the clock. So you can get into these late clock possessions, but they run Kiki early seal, Shakira early seal with like 18 on the clock. And then if we don't have it, okay, we'll get back out. But they're running, they're offensive rebounding and they're shooting a 2026 amount of three pointers. - Yeah, it makes me think about their draft, right? And I had you on right after the draft. And we sort of talked about sort of, it's confusing that they didn't draft as many shooters as were available. And hearing Sydney Johnson talk about it later, it's like they wanted to get more toughness. They wanted to stop being beat up. And I thought that, you know, in the context of knowing that the referee rules were, we're going to change in the context of knowing the direction that the league was taking. That's a really interesting Zeg. You know, Cody McMahon, who's out with injuries, still hasn't even played, right? And just watching that game, watching John Kuala-Fowell out of the sort of his evidence of like, look, like, physicality isn't going to be legislated out of the game. There are certain ways that physicality is actually going to be reported more than it ever has been. - Let's get to these playoffs and see, if everyone thinks that physicality has been legislated out of the game. - That is a great point. That is a great point. But players like Kiki and Shakira, if they're driving to the rim and they have an advantage, they're going to draw a foul. If they're boxing out and you're not boxing out on them, they're going to draw a foul, right? Like, yes, you'll probably get dinged on a couple of things like your screening actions and stuff, but so much of, like, we were kind of overly focused on the perimeter aspects of the refereeing, which makes sense, but at the same time, in WNBA, players can't totally destroy it in the paint. - Yes, yes. Can I go quick tangent? - Yes. - You see this across basketball officiating? And I think it's reason to be worried a little bit about the changes. Again, like you said, and share a weekend in. - Oh, give me that throw on a yellow flag. Throw on a refereeing yellow flag. - Let's do it. - Yeah, I'm throwing a flag on the ref, dude. We can't do the whole, oh, there's too much physicality, so we're calling hand fighting and slightly more illegal screens, 40 feet from the basket, and slightly more push-offs, but you can still do whatever you want to bigs down low. Like, to fix, quote unquote, the physicality issue, bigs and guards or interior and perimeter players have to be officiated closer to the same standard. It will never be the same standard. I get it, that's how basketball works. But to fix the problem that we all kind of recognize, it just has to be closer to the same standard. Instead, what I've seen so far, and not 100%, but it seems like that standard is getting wider. The standards for officiating interior and perimeter players are getting wider. You know what I mean? So, that is actually exacerbating the problem because you have no flow on the perimeter, but you're not really legislating the physicality that people don't like out of the game, which is it's just too much inside. - Was there anything that stood out to you in particular? - Yeah, I mean, listen, it's gonna sound liberty home-eared me, but like, you know, a lot of the John Quell files were just like soft, you know? But they weren't like going for offensive rebounds soft, like fighting for post-up positions. - Well, last one was a screen, yeah. - Yeah, and that's not the physicality we're talking about, where it was not an illegal screen, in my opinion. - Yeah, well, I will say though, I mean, Cass Prosper also felt, like I do think that some of that was, like them, like, you know, actually calling the stuff down low, which is the one that she actually got dinged on was the screen. - It was, and I haven't listened. The ones that I don't mind them calling are, hey, someone's trying to come off a pin down or an off-ball action, and they're just grabbing, and we're just grappling. Like, we don't need all that, I don't really love all that. So I don't mind if we overextend on those a little bit. - All right, yeah, no, for sure. I'm with you, I'm with you. Lucas, thank you so much for hopping on. Is there anything you want to plug before I let you go? - Nah, you know where to find me. Just look, you can look at my name. - I'm gonna, okay, so you can find Lucas on Nets Daily, you can also find him on his sub-stack as well. - Sure. - You know, this is great work. I think he's, you mix fun with X's and O's in a way that I think makes it a lot more accessible for people, so. - Do you think I'm in your, MIP race? Do you think I'm in your most improved podcaster? - I already, I already thought very highly of your podcasting abilities and your ball knowledge. So if you want to make the all, if you make the all start to superstar jump, then yeah, we can certainly talk, but that's one of the hardest jumps to make. - That's true. Well, I appreciate your clear belief in me and high standards. - Always. All right, thank you, Lucas. Thank you to Steven Allman for producing. Apologies for this episode going out a day late. We had a kind of Murphy's Law type of day as far as like cancellations went, but we'll be back most likely on Friday. And thank you for listening. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]