Red Rising Author Pierce Brown Joins the Wildmen

- I wouldn't time positive the name and he is. - And he is. - How could that go on the play, Brown? My last name is Brown. - And he is Brown. - And he is Brown. (laughing) (upbeat music) - Very excited about this guest coming on. A guy who we have no right to have as a guest, because maybe our biggest guest for us. He is one of the most successful sci-fi authors currently. My mom's maybe favorite author. She reads three books a week and this is her favorite series right now. - A guy. - She's mad for it. She goes, "Brennan, can I have a picture of you and him?" I go, "It's a video podcast." Just pause. (laughing) But I still might have to ask for a picture. - A guy who's 10 times smaller than us, please welcome Pierce Brown. (upbeat music) - Cheers, Pierce Brown. - Cheers, gentlemen. - Cheers, gentlemen. - You're so much for him. - You know, the funny thing is, I think I actually have maybe a different year of these things. I got them at the Rosable Flea Market. - Oh, really? - Mine has a, it's called the moustache thing. And it's got a little thing to protect the moustache. - Oh wow. - Yeah, so it's got a little thing. - We don't need that. - Now one couldn't do that with the fish. - How are you going to trick out of that? - Let's see. - We'll figure it out together. My friend, Goliver was telling me, there used to be a, I'm just going to mount a cane. A cane for the gentleman, where you would go and when you would use the urinal, the cane had a shield on the bottom of it which would block your shoes from urine splatter. - I need a shield from people looking. (laughing) So I'm not so embarrassed every time I go to the urinal. - I personally am a van or whenever they have a target. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You need a competition, I'm not missing. - The flies, the flies, the flies. - I'm a trough guy. - Oh, or ice. - Ice is the best. - Because of the belt. - And the little boy and me wants to destroy. - Yeah, and I'm just like, ha ha ha. In some places, in Europe and pubs, they have an actual soccer ball and a net that you can like piss the soccer ball into the net. - Does it come back out? Only when I pick it out. - When you pick it up and start again. - What place is in Europe is this? (laughing) - The dirtiest dives you can possibly go to. - There's probably one guy in Europe who's pumping his fist. He's like, that was his creative mark on the zeitgeist. - He's like the Velcro guy. - Oh yeah, he's like, I knew I was, I knew he was a soccer ball, the Velcro guy, yeah. - There is, I am incredibly intrigued by the people who invent like very mundane things. So I know that the person who lives above can and canyon, that big wineries that you see. The lore is, he was in a trailer park and there was construction around, all around him. And his trailer was kind of becoming dilapidated. So he took a piece of insulation foam, ripped in half, rolled it up and stuck it in his ears, and then pat and do it to become. - Earplug guy? - To your plug guy. - Earplug guy. I know that exact, you're talking about the big castles. - Big villa. - Ringed with, yes, yes, yes. - H-4 by earplugs? - By the roll-up earplugs. - Did Odysseus use them? - Oh, yeah. - I think so. I'm pretty sure I saw that house in succession, by the way. - I'm pretty sure in the last season - Succession there at that house. - I didn't tell you this story because it's true. I told you this because I heard it from my dad who's a liar. - Well, it could be more reliable. You could have got to have read it. - That's true, that's true. - We're all reliable. - The amount of times, like, the whole thing is like, coming up with ideas, probably even the mundane. People, it's all a gumbo, it's a soup, right? The problem is when you start getting so much information in your head, and you're not sure if it's actually a fact. And you're like, "I know this study," or was it a guy on Reddit? - Yeah. - You just don't know where the info came from. - But it's like a fact now. - Yeah, I'm like, "What was the sample size?" - Like tell me. - I have another one dated a girl for a little while, whose family, I think, now owns the Timberwolves, but they made their money by using machinery that they had like a patent on, like, micro machinery back in this day. And the thought was it was making no money, and their family owned like lumber yards, so he, one family member decided, I bet I can take a log down to its smallest size in our machines, and he invented the toothpick. - You know, this is an interesting thread of conversation. (laughing) I feel as though a lot of creatives create a fantastical story, mythologized how they became a creative. - Yeah. - And I think it's the same way that founders are induced by their investors to come up with some sort of mythology. I often think it's coming so intimate with the subject that you just don't, you're almost a gas that people have not figured out how to solve an inefficiency, or you're upset with the people are doing it a certain way, and you're like, "I'll show them how it's done." I think so much comes from how dare people have been doing this for 2,000 years this way. We need a toothpick. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. - And it's like, it's just intimacy with the subject, I think, sometimes, and the toothpick, guys, because a lot of times, how do you use the extra lumber, right? - Exactly. - Certain percentages is not getting used, right? - Not getting milled. - If you have that much, I guess you would almost call it like runoff lumber at that point in time, which you're taking a loss on, the guy, the weird guy in your family who's like, "I really love making watch parts." Probably knows how to do something. - We should listen to Timmy. - Yeah, Timmy might. - Timmy might be able to handle this. - Timmy's weird fixation is gonna make us billionaires. - Just guys, yeah. - Be it a lot of kale. - I can confidently say there has never been a sprouts Timmy with a weird fixation who has ever made billions of dollars. I think that is safely the opposite. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Well, you came up with this podcast. So there we go. - Well, we also have to have enough children. You're gonna burn the name Timmy on one. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. - Yeah, get past the gussets. - You gotta get past the ODCs, yeah. - Timmy the third. So my wife and I are set to have our first child, and I, clearly you're a history guy. Clearly you are. - My love of names stems definitely from Scandinavian sagas, and very quickly my wife has ex-nade every single day. - I was about to say you're not getting very far. I one time positive the name and Nias. - And Nias. - My last name is Brown. - Nias Brown. - And Nias Brown. (laughing) - It is, I think, a good practice when thinking of names for your own children to go, if I was in middle school, what would I call that, Kim? - What would I call that? - So tell my grandpa not to say Chris Columbus. (laughing) - That's like maybe the meanest name, not even Christopher. It just dropped right there. - I mean, he's done a lot of name recognition. - You know, he just immediately bullied. - First day. - He explored. (laughing) - How you feel today? - I feel very good. - Really? - Yeah. - We had with just my birthday weekend. - We had some beers last night. - I know, I know, but before I had the beers, guess what I had. - And you didn't tell me. - I know. - I woke up feeling tired. - I'm not giving you any of my antibiotics, dude. - Well, you think I'm just kidding. - Well, you think I'm just kidding a lot. - 'Cause I had one, too. And I feel great, yeah, I'm really pumped up. (laughing) - How great do you feel? - I have so much energy right now. - Do you? - I just, I just feel normal, honestly. I don't feel, you know, I just feel like I didn't have a couple bruske's last night. - And speaking of, we're 33 now. Nothing feels normal anymore. - We're both 34. - Oh, shit. (laughing) - We're both 34. As of two days ago, you were. - That's right, yeah, that's true. And I mean, imagine that. - Yeah. - I was, I was clearheaded enough to remember our age. - Yeah, exactly, right? - Well, if you can think about that. - Z-biotics pre-elcal probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. - It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. - Here's our works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. - It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. It's to blame for rough days after drinking. - Pre-elcal produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. - Just remember to make pre-elcal your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. - Mondays don't move for anyone. Pre-elcal works overnight so you can have a real weekend and still show up sharp. Z-biotics.com/wildman, code, wildman for 15% off. (upbeat music) - You have written so many of this particular series and how often are you just cooking up fresh names? Are you just looking into the history of what maybe, so you're clearly a history fan, like we were already saying. It definitely seems to lean a Grecian Roman for this particular series. - I'd say that's the axis on which my love of history turns. - Yeah. - Whenever you find a new name and a book and you're just like, (beep) - I can get that anywhere. Sometimes it'll be like, I'll hear something on the radio just a certain sequence of words together and it's like part of a sentence and that'll evoke something from me. So I'm a collector of that. So I collect names, I'll collect those names. Now here's the thing in ADHD. So will I ever look at those notes? - No. - But you still have them have to make enough of an impact. - Right, right. - Someone in your estate, like 300 years from now is gonna be like, I found this. - The book of journals. (laughing) - It's gonna be like, bingo tummies. - Yeah, and they're like, my ancestor was, it was an idiot. (laughing) - What the (beep) - Yeah, it was a (beep) - So my sister's always got me these like, really lovely leather bound journals, right? - Yeah. - Like these exquisite ones. Sometimes with like a cool stone clasp or hooks and there's also some pike place market up in Seattle which I've got every time I go, which I've gone 25 times probably. I get a journal, but the problem is each time you start a new journal, you're like, this time. It's gonna be this time. It's gonna be like uncovering like an ancestor's gonna find or descendant and they're gonna be like, what a relic. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, this would be millions of, you know, and instead it ends up being like, you know. - Eight pages. - Yeah, eight pages, epic names. And then just. - Grocery list. - Blank. - Blank and until I finally relent and I'm like, Grocery list. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because the journal has to be with you, it has to be with you the whole way. - Yeah. - Because that's like your testament of what you're thinking. about because if you save journals for particular things, I find that I don't use journals. Well, the history of journaling is obviously pretty vast, but in recent history, what a segway! Is recently, recently is relegated to 13-year-old girls hiding it under their pillow in modern media. Like, it is like writing in journals is like not as sick as it used to be. Like, finding a journal used to be crazy. Well, I think that there was a point where we were all desperate enough to write in journals. Yeah, yeah, right. In many ways, it was kind of a way to like, reflect and also put into context and etc. But I imagine having talked to you guys for 20 minutes, you guys are always constantly doing that anyway. So, I want to escape that. So, I'm not a good journaler. I'm really bad at it. I don't want to write about me. I want to talk about me in a party, someone wants to talk about like my work or something, unless they really like it. Like, if they like it, because, okay, my favorite thing when I was a kid was, I moved around a lot. I went to 11 schools, but my favorite is when we would have woods in the backyard and I'd get to build before it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the best is my dad giving me a new tool, like a hatchet or like going to the military surplus store and me getting like 50 bucks worth it. And I did that like that shovel pick thing. I have like face paint and I just disappear. It's the stuff. It's cool stuff. Not cool. When I got our first Airsoft guns, it was a blood bag. I made a PowerPoint presentation for my mom. I go, please. I have one goggles right afterwards. Oh, the ski. Oh, yes, yes. Hold on one day. No, no, no, never see ski guys. Cool. And I got like Airsoft guns that were like the compression type. Okay, the compressed air. And we would, well, we should excuse me while I drink some ice. I'm not trying to take away with some more. You know, it's, it's for the visual payoff. It's for the real. I really don't like to talk about myself. Here's a fish mark. Paul and I decided, well, we should naturally shoot these point blank at each other and see how they feel. Sure. I played mercy. Yeah. And Cole being 15 minutes younger than me was first up. Okay. He's got a chip in his shoulder. I shot him point blank in the love handle, which was a mean place to shoot him. Okay. How old are you? Yeah. When you get in. Well, dude, it's always a love handle in the fresh house. There's never become something. Two years in Tom 40. I thought they handed them out that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, I shot him and immediately he's keeled over and paying like tears in his eyes. It was terrible. Yeah. And then he looks at me and he goes, okay, it's your turn. And I was like, I don't think you know the way that this works. We figured out how much it hurts all right. Yeah, why? I don't think you need to take the mother's shoulder shits like downhill. This is not for me now. No, that's, I mean, and it's exactly that. It's the high jinx for lack of a better term. You can get up to with neighbors. Like, and so I build a fort and and it wasn't real. It didn't come, like, it didn't become ministerial or Camelot until friends join. Exactly. So if someone brings up the books in a way that I can talk about like characters and like the things in the books, I get really excited because I'm just playing in a fort. Yeah. Right. But if they want to like talk about like you're, you know, you're publishing history. Sometimes you're just like, hmm, I'm like, what's your, I'm like, what's the thing you get canceled for if you put it on Twitter? Like opinion. I'm like, I want you raw opinion. Yeah. Then they get all freaked out. And I'm like, we should go talk to other people. That's the last question I ever want to ask a writer. I feel like there's always a freak switch that gets turned on. But here's the thing. There's so like the book I'm working on now is like over 200,000 words right now. And they're, don't worry. In 200,000 words, your freak flag will fly. Yeah. Yeah. So the only problem is did the editors catch it? And the problem is they don't sometimes that's why you have bedlamide. It's dark. I don't know how that happened. That's funny. Although the idiosyncrasy, I do like that dare being obsessed with his hands. Exactly right. Because that's where his mental value is. That's how he was able to earn first clan and have a place. Yeah. So the idiosyncratic mind and a first person narration would go back to where their value is whenever they're afraid. See genius. That's what we would never reach. And then people are like, oh, you did it. He's always talking about his hands. He's like, this is character. That's his whole thing. Yeah. He's a big thief. He's fast hands there. You know, and it's something that is, by the way, just a miss in almost 90% of scripts that you read too. Because characters like oftentimes protagonists don't have an idiosyncrasy at all. And you read it and they're kind of, they're almost like a link from Legend of Zelda where they're, they're just like the silent protagonist that walks through it and you're like, you have no quirk, nothing that really feels human about you. So for you to say that, I'm really intrigued. And things happen to them. Yeah. Happened to them, right? So their agency and those scripts I imagine is a bit different than how to say scripts that are written from the eye of the beholder. Yeah. Are the probably ones that it's difficult as an actor to connect with? No. I find that the actual most difficult for me would be the ones where there's kind of a milk toast lead. And they're, the characters clearly driving the story. And like you're saying, things are happening to him. And he's clearly central to the narrative. But all the tertiary characters around him are so much more well developed. And to me, what it feels, it feels the same way when a director goes, okay, so we're going to get on stage. And then I just want you to like go wild with it. No, she's a great note. No. I want to read something that you've written as an actual character. It's intentional. That's intentional. It feels like a real character so I can step into that. And then we can go wild with it. You're not asking me to write the character. And in that way, for me, it just feels like it's a little too much heavy lifting. I also at the same time, I just go like, it's lazy. It feels lazy. In a script, you can't write inner thoughts, right? So you have to write just dialogue and action. And that's the only way you can show character in a script, which is tough, right? Because you don't have the, you know, then the director has to fill in what they're thinking. I think it's tough, but it's tough about context. It gets easier as you progress. As you know, more about the character, you can say more with less action each time, right? So you know, a guy can see a toothpick. Yeah. Right at the end of it. And you know that that was that was Timmy the toothpick. Timmy got caught out of the will. But he sees a toothpick at the end. And at least he knows he had an empty only thing he had in his will were these watch parts. And he knows that he can make a toothpick at him, right? And all you need to see is him seeing that in the in the thing. And we have closed the loop. But you're so right. There is such a temptation when you're writing for the tertiary characters to have more of a voice. And it's mostly because I think that the tertiary characters are actually pretty cardboard cut out. They're usually a type. And so when you don't have the have to deal with the inner complexity and mostly relatability, I think so many people confuse relatability with likability. Like how am I going to relate to your characters? The thing I often heard when I was pitching out here, right? But I thought that they were always conflating the two and thinking of them being likable, right? And if we look, we were talking about some of the golden age TV before we sat down mad men in particular. Is Don likable at times, at times, right? He's charming. He wants to like him. And when he starts doing well, you're like, hell yeah. And then he backs slides. But you know, if you've ever known anyone who's an addict, what are they really good at doing? Backsliding. Backsliding 10 years. Three more days. You're like, what? No more. But we're so conditioned by film, unfortunately, because of the way film is structured to believe that the arc of like a character's trajectory bends toward progress. Yeah. And that's not the case. So with books, you get to explore that a little bit more. And I think certain films do do that, right? You know, yeah, good ones do. Good ones do. Yeah, they don't have to be, they don't have to do that to be good, right? I think what you're also saying, well, sorry, I'm cutting it off because I'm also just geeking out. We're going to cut each other up a lot. We have had a hand signal. Hand signals. Let me finish. Something that my girlfriend does this. The shotgun. I just grab his thigh, usually. That's my thigh. Oh, that shuts him up. What can we switch chairs? He's the head to be a father. I'm tired, man. That's another fake yarn from me. No, but I am actually, you know, I'm tired of what? I'm tired because I'm cooking my, I literally, you know this. I could ramp a fresh beef and then I put brown rice in it. And then I swirl it around like, you know, like a cafeteria, like a wedge, exactly. And then I throw in peas and corn and carrots. I don't even know if that's what dogs should eat. I just think they're healthy because they're vegetables. I mean, grandpa is also like 17 years old because you've been doing this. Well, but I've been doing it forever. And then I just like, and if he doesn't do that, I get a can of food that he won't eat. He was picky as hell. He won't eat the fresh food, usually. So then I finally think of these sponsor podcasts or else I wouldn't know about them. They guys, I got Sundays for dogs. Yeah. Pour it in the bowl. Grandpa runs over like, I've given him a bowl of treats, a bowl of gold. I know. There's no, there's no synthetic bullshit. It's just, it's all natural, good food. It's actually vet-founded too, which I think is kind of cool. So you know what I'm making, but already made, it I could just buy it 100%. And by the way, because we both have Frenchies, we have to be so particular about what they eat. Everything's an allergy to those animals. And apaquils expensive. Apaquils are very expensive. So, so this is actually a godsend for piggy as well, my dog, but I mean, in general, I think this has helped us like immensely. Starting a new food is a big deal, which is why Sundays for dogs is offering 30% off. Give your dog the chance to try Sundays and watch them fall in love. Go to SundaysforDogs.com. and slash wild men, or use our code wildmen for 30% off. Which is a great deal. And 30% off, you would be 410 if they took 30% off your body. (laughing) - So, I paused rereading, I'm like book eight into the Horace Heresy series for Warhammer 40K. - Goodness, you 40K? - I'm a 40K guy, which I feel like you have to be a little bit. - Because I started, I'm pleased, so please, no spoilers. Which is why for people who are like looking for things to talk about or hear in this particular podcast, it might be disappointed because I'm like, we can't spoil it. Cause I'm really into red rising right now. But I only picked it up last week and it was my part. - And I hear you've not gotten a book to yet. - I have not gotten a book to yet. - So, from here on, I guess here for, we'll call it my sweet summer child. - Yeah, I'll just go with that child. (laughing) - When the aliens come, it really starts picking up. - It gets crazy. - The Warhammer series is funny to me because like, I know exactly why I'm reading it. When I'm reading it, I'm like, I want to see Space Marines crush the Xenofilf. Now, when I'm reading it and like, I'm obviously suspending my disbelief, I know the world that they've set. It's not particularly like fantastic at being an all around narrative, but it's really good at understanding why I want to read that book series. And I find that that's like, that's gotta be, so I wanted to pick your mind about this because when reading through Red Rising, I go, this is just empirically a good narrative. Have, do you feel like it was tough for you to find the overall, like the umbrella voice of the narrative or where are you at without spoiling it for me? So, do you know what I mean? What kind of-- - Are you talking about tone? - Kind of tone. I'm almost, I guess, yeah, that would be the simplest way to put it, would be tone. But I guess it's, it's informed. When I read through the Horace Heresy series, it doesn't feel like tone to me. It feels like it's grim, dark, sure. And you would say that that's a tone, but it's also in the lexicon of how they speak to each other, what they're saying to each other, how they're interacting. Everything that's inside of that book feels very complete to me. - Yeah. - I'm also a dumb guy, so I do need you to explain it in a dumb guy way. - Mm. (laughs) - Here's the thing, while writing, I feel perpetually dumb. While reading, I feel perpetually dumb. In fact, I love reading because that makes me less dumb. And so I get excited when I get to find something like when you have a gap that you're like, I cannot believe. Like, okay, simple, simple case in point. I didn't see the arrow in the FedEx logo. - Oh, for the longest time. - For the longest time, yeah. - You know, I'm talking about it? Yeah, I didn't see that. Now I can't see that. And then the A to Z for Amazon, I was like, holy moly. I don't think I even know that. - There's a little arrow pointing A to Z. - So bring it full circle. - I'd say that the overall umbrella came somewhat fully baked, but I like to think of things. So, okay, I think of the same way of characters. Characters in order to be interesting have to be at war with themselves, right? And I think that with regard to my protagonist, but also with regard to even secondary and tertiary characters. Because it explains the shearing forces within them, which is what it is, you then create internal drama. I think you should have the same shearing forces in a world, right? There's got to be choke points that you set up. So choke points being like, mind's helium three. They need energy, right? Do and use it much more liberally because it's a one-to-one with oil, right? But my point, I wasn't trying to talk about systems, the way Frank Herbert was trying to talk about systems, because Frank Herbert enters into the conversation, writing "Dune", having already seen more, already participated, and I think it was Korea. So, he already had his thesis in his conclusion when he started. I instead started with a 16-year-old who had not seen more, and I've not been shot at. I've been hit a lot, but. - Well, I got an airsoft gun. - This thing's interesting. - Hey, you want to get shot in the love of Bernal Dude? - I got you. - I don't see you love handles. - We used to lock the doors, freeze paintball guns, and say, let the last one survive. - Frozen paintball. - Frozen paintball. - Jesus. - You had eye protection. That's it. - We learned you also had to have mouth guards. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That was pretty brutal. - Frozen paintball. - Could you imagine? - That's like a slug. - Oh, yeah. - Here's the thing. Imagine 50 of them in your bag, right? - Did you have brothers and sisters? - I had a sister. Fortunately, this was all. I had enough crazy friends in Texas at this point. - Oh, yeah. - And this was, obviously, this is my Texas period. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is a Texas period. - I have one sister. She's 14 months older, so we're like kind of a Jason Irish twins. But I think that it's the. Thinking that in a world, with 40k, I love 40k, but I have never read the books. I've played almost all the video games. I used to paint the figures and everything. 'Cause when I was eight, you know, going to the malls, I get an orange Julius, and you pass one of those games or a shop, and you're like, what is that? - Right. - Just like neo-gothic space marines. - It's supposed to be a fantasy of mine. - Oh my god, right? - That's so cool. - So I found that so evocative, right? But then, but my brain is trying to unpack everything behind it. The problem with 40k is, well, why I would never want to write like a universe that's a one to one of with 40k, is because past that tonality, you don't see how the average person is hanging out in that world. Like I always have a problem with moving corp starch. - I have a problem with villains where you're like, all right, but what's the point of all this villainy? - Yeah, exactly. - Like Darth Vader. I'm like, all right, so is it just to kind of sit in his isolation chambers? - It's like Palpatine. - Palpatine is power, maybe power is enough, but what are they doing for fun? It's why I created the golds. I've created the golds because I'd seen villainy dressed up, well, how do I say it, is it Nietzsche that says that morality or goodness has an aesthetic quality to it? Or an aesthetic necessity to it or something? It's basically something, you know, we often think of bad is like, look at the dark side of the force. It turns you ugly. Why would you want to be the dark side, right? - Yeah, it should be, it's really the opposite. - Yeah, but much of Western canon was founded on some seminal works and one of the seminal works was paradise loss. In paradise loss, Lucifer is depicted as the class. - He's hot as hell, dude. - He's hot as hell. (beep) - The only thing you could play in a movie, maybe. - Dude, dude, stop. - The paradise found. (laughing) - Actually, that's a book. (laughing) It's a neutral, proactive approach to hair loss. - Yeah, well, I was thinking about, you know, I was obviously taking it for the wedding and then it's been doing such a good job. I'm like, why not just keep it going? I noticed too, since last time, the baby's coming and you want your infant to put her little fingers through your hair. - Is that true? - Mm-hmm. - So what if you get up too? - You say that so slow, it scared me. What I have been up to, I've been thinking a lot about that. I've been thinking about my child running her little fingers through my hair. - Yeah. - Daddy. - No, I've been, I mean, obviously stress impacts everyone differently. - Yeah. - And I think that the cool thing is it seems like neutral fold is taking just a proactive approach. It's really no sweat. You take a pill with a meal, you do it about four times a day and then sooner or four times once. - You, I know, because I take it. It's four times with a meal. You take, oh, two, three, four, then eat. - Oh, really? - You don't have to take it four times a day that's insane. Now, it's easy, it's once a day, man. - Oh, once a day with four yummy pills. - Yeah, so I'm getting better too. I used to be really bad at pills. These are nice, easy, swallow slide right down my gullet. 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That's Neutral fold.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code Wildman. - So, I was really inspired by Milton, and Milton, you know, he framed it differently and he framed it as Lucifer's only problem was that he wanted free will. And he didn't understand where he disagreed that angels shouldn't get free will and mortals should. Right, and so, but it's claimed as a classical free hero, right, he has one great flaw, pride is what sends him down to the pit of hell and turns him into a monster. But I just thought of like the golds being the, you know, the consummate humans, steeped in our humanities, mathematically intelligent, well versed in history, well versed in martial supremacy, et cetera, and all these things. But I thought that by creating my villain was kind of a way to look at what this world values of the red rising world. So the world values the, this, the sum of humanity being poured into these God-like figures, right? And then I thought about this question I used to ask people, and it was, would you want magic to be real? Harry Potter style, if you were a muggle. - That's a tough one, right? 'Cause now you have people with immense power, with power over you, you know, they have complete control of society. They can do everything. It's very potter, but you're not audible. - A vodka diver. - Yeah, so do you want magic to exist, but you can't do it. - Well, it's really a question of do you believe more people are good than evil, right? - Is it for you? - I think so. - I don't think that's how he's going to necessarily think about it. - Yeah, I want to see a unicorn bad. - Everyone's going to think about it in different ways. He's thinking about the sequel to Paradise Found again. - Yeah, I'm thinking about what I can do with a unicorn. - Paradise Found. - Paradise Found. - With a unicorn and a horn. - Horn rises. - Horn rises. - Eyes is horned brown. - Oh, I read that. - I thought they stayed the same size. - Throw a centaur in there. - No, the centaur is a hornish creature. - A hornish creature. - Natoriously repacious. - Natoriously. - Really bad. - Sadder's a centaur. - Yeah, right. - He's saying it's bad. - It's kind of that way that I think about the umbrella. - Would you want to live in that world? - My thesis is that 99% of people wouldn't. - Yeah, wouldn't. - And I think we can look at wealth the same way nowadays. It's not a one-to-one, but I think about privilege. At the time, I thought that CRISPR technology was evolving. It's already happening. In about 10 years, I think we'll have 20-year-olds in China that we're genetically modified. - It's happening right now. - And so they're gonna, you know, start selecting traits. And a lot of it started because they wanted to eliminate Parkinson's. They wanted to eliminate these genetic disorders, which, you know, cut your life enough. The movie "Gatica" is a great illustration of that. You haven't seen "Gatica." - "Gatica" is fantastic. - "Gatica" is phenomenal. - No one brings it up. - It was right there. - And it's, well, by the way, that's the closest one to one. - Yeah, and right to me. - It's funny. - But it's that being the concept that it's already too late. Because, like America's great, because you can catch up. You know, if you're born into poverty or if you're an immigrant, the dream is you can catch up. And you, based on your own agency, can change your lot. But what if your lot is decided not even who your parents are, but based on your genes. - And that feels like the most fundamentally unfair thing I can think of. - Like you're saying, my impulse, even though joking, my impulses in the Harry Potter world, I would still prefer magic to be real. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are still muggles who can practice magic. - No. - As long as the doors are owed, they can learn about magic, or they can learn to do-- - Yeah, watch the movie, right? - Yeah, watch the movie, right? - No, but, we'll prove it. - Oh, thanks. - You can read it after red riots. - Harry Potter was just an illustration. This is for the thought exercise. So, let's just confine it. You cannot do magic. - Okay, but I also know there's a lot of things I can't do. I will never make a touchdown, right? - They're right. - I will never-- - Let's see, it's interesting. - And so, for me, I'd like to know that those things are still in existence, 'cause I do think I'm like, I lean on the side of thinking that stuff is cool. Even things that are outside me are cool. - And I think that that is a comfortability with things that you don't understand, or are not capable of doing, which I think is something that is often learned, not necessarily something we're born with. I think that our innate sense is, I can't do it, that's not fair. - Yeah. - No one should be able to do it. And so, what I wanted to do is capitalize on that instinct within a society. And so, then that really informed the umbrella. It really started making me think about the other colors. It started making me think about what it would be like being in a bar as a gray. And you're doing, you're laying great game, you know? - Yeah. - You're doing great. You're Riz, or whatever they call it, these days. - It's just max. - It's off the charts. - You're Riz maxing. - And then a gold maxer comes in. - Seven one gold walks in. - That happens. - Hey Brendan, outside of your universe. - I don't understand. - So, you know, and I think that your reaction to it is exactly the place that I think that, or you're saying that just because you can't do it, you still want basketball to exist, you know, for hypothetical. I think that that is wisdom and beauty. I agree with that. And I think that that's ideal. But I don't think that we all, when we're our strongest, when we're our low, let's just say the high vibration versus low vibration, just make it really simple. Low vibration means a little bit of a bitch. And doesn't want people to be able to do that. Now, I never had those thoughts about basketball because I was already baked into the world. Same thing in red rising. It's already baked into their heads that they're not supposed to be able to do that. And so the whole concept is, what if a few people said we should be able to do that? And so, what would that create? And how does that change the thought consciousness of a class? - That is one of my favorite parts of red rising. - Yeah, exactly. One of my favorite parts of red rising is the defeatism of the people that just accept it. And you pray as yourself that you wouldn't be one of them. - Yeah. - But it would be very easy to succumb to pressure and you go, oh, this is what I am, this is what I do. I have to deal with the minds for the rest of my life. - Well, if you think about it, you think about it. Governments are an agreement that we make. Not necessarily individually, but on moss, we make an agreement between anarchy and order. And where do you want to be on the scale for that? You know, fascism is very far over here, right? And every form of government is somewhere along that scale. It's not always decided by the people. And my theory was that every form of government turns into an oligarchy in the end. And that goes back to Plato when we can talk about that. But it's just a sliding scale. And so, I think that if you look at our world, capitalism works because it's the only thing that I think it's the only governing, how do I say it? Only economic system that treats people as we are, not the way we want people to be. If we don't have money to fight over, we'll fight over other things. Money's just stored value, right? So, if we don't fight over stored value, which gives us access to new life, new opportunities, protection of our children, a future legacy, a cool car, whatever security, whatever it means to you, then you fight over other things. Because if you can look at every time that communism has really been put into practice, it every time is an oligarchy, or at least a cabal. Also, I think, like, to that degree, too, even to what you were saying about, like, how you pray you wouldn't be one of those people. Like, oftentimes, that goes hand in hand with banality, right? Like, when something, the easier something is, obviously, the more likely we are to slip into it and to become complacent with what's around us. So, in a way, I do agree, and we're not much of a political podcast, but I do agree, like, communism is easy. That's the whole point of it, right? It's supposed to be simple, and that is why, in my opinion, it can't work. You know, to keep it out of politics is, I think, more of an anthropology almost. If you look at, let's say, Scandinavia. Okay, so Scandinavians is, I think it's the first place in the Western world where women were able to get prominency in political positions, right? And you look at, why per chance is that possible? But if you look at their culture, it's a rating culture. Viking is a verb, right? The men go Viking. And so, if any crime is committed back home, that's a crime against your culture. Historically, female leaders in Scandinavia. Right? And so, they have to have the whole world. Right? So, they already had proof that it worked, but also, then, any crime, while the men are away, is an attack on civilization. It's an existential threat to your society. And so, they're more comfortable because they had to have that because of necessity. And so, that's how we have female presidents in Scandinavia before we've had one in America, right? It's almost baked in, yeah. It's baked in, yeah. So, you know, I try to look at the umbrella thing of like, how does that affect things over 700 years? They also didn't, and this is just a side fact that I found interesting recently when I was reading through. These are all side facts, true. But I think there was also a philosophical shift in being away from the battlefield and also still. Still being at war because, at home, they'd weave the tapestry. They're still at war. They would weave the tapestries for what was essentially, like sending good magic or energy out to their husbands or their sons, and they would actually affect the battle. So, they believe it. I mean, you know, in a really strong civilization, the blood that runs through the veins of war is money. Yeah. In the, you know, not a very developed civilization. It's all tribal societies. The industry is the tribe. Like, everyone in the tribe is at war because they're all doing things to prepare for war, right? They're making arrows. Like, you see those arrows shot movies, and you're like, "That probably took a little while to make it." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you gotta go get that. You know what I really wanted to dress as for Halloween? For what? I wanted to dress as, from one piece, the character Do Flamingo. But, I don't ever feel comfortable dressing as him yet, because I really want to be in shape. Do Flamingo's got a six pack. I have a six pack of beer in the back. So. And love handles. And love handles. Which Barbara has assisted as normal. I never saw him in the mirror until you started talking about him. I'm like, "God damn." I'll tell you. Well, I'll tell the like. I'll tell the love handles story, and then I'll still get us to our ad. So, I'm sitting down on the couch with Barbara, and we're watching a UFC fight. And we're watching Wonder Boy, Chris Thompson fight. And she goes, "Unprompted." You see, babe, even he knows love handles. And I said, 'cause we've never discussed that before, I said, "What do you mean?" And she goes, "Well, like, even at the top of his game, he's got love handles." I mean, I went, "Are you saying that I have unbreachable love handles?" You immediately Google hymns.com. I thought I went immediately. And I was like, "I need some hymns." I was like, "I can't have love handles forever," which I still do, so she was right. But I can't have love handles forever. What do I do? Now, hymns-- They introduced a weight loss line. They do. They have an FDA-approved GLP-1 through Wigovie pill form and Wigovie pen form. And I can finally dress as Doflamingo and I can throw my love handles to the wind and say, "Ha ha, Barbara." - Ha ha, Barbara, hymns. (laughing) 20% of your body weight can't be lost with some diet and exercise. And you just, you know, you take the pill of the pen, you go to hymns, and then I'll be dressed up as, what, how we manned out. Bald cap, ripped guy. - Is he a ripped guy? - He looks ripped, he looks rough. Mr. Clean, I meant. (laughing) But how we manned out, could dress up as Mr. Clean and we could go as like a couple costume. - Ready to reach your goals? Visit hymns.com/wildman to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. - That's h-i-m-s.com/wildman. hymns.com/wildman. - Weight loss by hymns is not available in all 50 states. Wagovies, the registered trademark of NOVO Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wagovie Clinical Study Information and restrictions, visit hymns.com. - hymns.com, go right now. - Violence is often so free. In violence should never be free. It should either affect, like you should break, right? There's that great interview. Someone just slaps the table. Who was it? I think it was for, it was, it was a director, wasn't it? - Ed Harris. - Ed Harris for a history of violence, which is a phenomenal film, right? - I wanna get back to this point that you were making though. - It would go back to Lawrence. - Let's have the actor, bring us back to the message. Which is the first time ever in history that's happened. Jesus Christ. - You got a p-ro tool, dude, I'm like, "Yeah, you didn't really help me." Every time you're making a point, I'm going to be like, "Hey, attention to me." - Drinking out of a fish. - Hold on, I'm still drinking. - It's so far down here now. - Two, two pet peeves, I will say when reading personally, and I think you're getting at this a little bit, is the, is how frivolous violence is when I'm reading something. Or when there's like a terrible magic system, when magic emerges from the dust of the world. Like if it's out of nowhere, those two things, like especially when I'm reading obviously fantasy or sci-fi, from reading that I go like, that is, that is like, it's a major pet peeve. And I think that the, if you haven't, and I'll say this just as inside, if you haven't played hotline Miami. - Great game. - You could beat the entire game in a night sitting down. It deals entirely with how frivolous violence is, and how we consume it in this way. That's why I will say that, you know, from what I've read so far, from you, you've tackled that swimmingly. I haven't noticed a case yet where it just seems like someone's getting their head cut off for no reason. - Your violence is, I would put it in like, oh, it's hard to say what. Almost irreversible levels of like shocking. Well, you put these punches that I love action movies, right? And you really choreographed the scenes really well. And I was gonna ask you about that too, but your sparks of violence and horror that comes in, is like, Chormac McCarthy almost, right? Because when something happens, Blood Meridians, I was leaving one of my favorite modern books. - Yeah. - It was a favorite modern book. - An evening redness in the West. Also known as Blood Meridians. See, the run-on sentence when they're destroying the town? - I mean, one of the best things in the world. - No, not when that outhouse opens at the end. - Oh, dude. - I, that ruined me. - Ruin me. - Only book I've ever read walking down the streets of New York, walking and reading. - It couldn't separate. - Couldn't separate. - Yeah. - And someone, the guy I almost bumped into was like, hey, Matt, and then he saw me reading Blood Meridian when he's like, "Bloom Meridian." - Go ahead. - Yeah. - God be with you. - Yeah, I was like, holy shit. - I mean, the judge is just like what, the perfect character. - Yeah, I always look at the judge as a personification of the, how would I say it, the toxic west. - It's the bad part. - When he's erasing the cave drawings. - It's like, I remember when I first read, I was like, "This is insane!" The first time you read that book, you're like, "What is going on?" - This is the coolest. - Wow, anyway. - We can talk about it. - He's beheld it, it's been encoded in his book. - Nothing exists without my dispensation. - That's what it is. - Without my consent. - Without my consent, that's just, that is so. (upbeat music) - You brought up history of violence, which I think has the same thing. Of those quick flashes with the squibs going of brutal violence that then you get back into, which I love in the book, it's almost like you made a jump scare in it, right? And just the way you frame the action is very cinematic. And I was wondering if you, it almost feels like sometimes like a John Wu movie or martial arts to me, where you do the strikes, but it comes from someone who almost has like a training with the ranger. And did you have to go through anything to learn? 'Cause just the way you write actions, very good. - If you're anything like me, the only lesson will stick is when you fail. - Yeah, I've been in some physical competition. - So you got your ass kicked? - Yeah. - I don't think you win until you got your ass kicked. - I didn't learn as much when I won. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I certainly remember losing. I certainly didn't remember what it does emotionally to you. And once I'm got knocked out by a guy, I didn't even see. - Yeah, that's right. - That's some guy and I got punched? - Yeah, but that happens. - It does happen. - It happens when you live a reckless life. And I was, you know, 16 in Texas. - I mean, it happens every night there. And, you know, there's like a, there's sort of thing with honor cultures. Like in Texas, it's kind of like still like an honor culture. Like you meet a guy in a park and you figure it out. And I remember meeting a guy in a park and he figured me out. (laughing) - Dillamy, it's a lot of guys in parks. - It sucked me. - He really figures him out. (laughing) - I think this is probably your cup. (laughing) - Me, this guy. - Oh man. - So I, you know, I think how to say it, I think in one of the things I see in our society and this is not like a really noble thought, but we have certain manners when you're walking on the street. You have certain manners when you're driving in a car. You have certain manners when you're on the internet. Certain manners when you're anonymous on the internet. If you say something wrong, you can hit in the face. Yeah, behave different. - Yeah. - And that's taught me a lot of lessons. Well, Mike Tyson has a plan until you get hit in the face. And so I begin every single thing of violence of there's something unexpected, right? Like Julian and his confrontation with Darrow laughed when he got hit. You've read that. You better have read that. - That's what I did. - That's what I did. - That's what I did. - Oh yeah. He laughs because he doesn't know how to deal with the discomfort of being actually struck with menace. He's trained most of his life, but he's never been hit by someone who wants to hurt him. - Yeah. - It's very weird seeing someone who wants to hurt you. And so I haven't had bullet shot. I haven't had all these other, you know, I haven't participated in warfare, but I do know the feeling of smallness. I do know the feeling of fragility. I also know the feeling of knowing I'm not made out of glass. But also one out of a hundred of those lucky punches are made out of glass. And so I tried to just do justice to that while treating with violence. Because otherwise I'm disrespecting war. I'm disrespecting the people who have fought in war. I'm disrespecting why war is fought. And also disrespecting violence itself. Because violence itself is a disruption of pattern. And I think that why my violence resonates, hopefully, is because it feels monstrous. Yet at the same time, there's something in the characters. So it feels monstrous, yet there is a beauty to it. There's a glory to aspects of it. If there weren't, we wouldn't keep doing it. If it just sucked. War is hell. So why do we keep summoning hell? Sometimes it's systems, World War One, World War Two, both products of systems, for different reasons. Basically, what they call the Thucides dilemma or the Thucides problem? Thucides question. It's like a rising empire will inevitably go to war with the existing empire, because, for instance, in Germany, like how much of oil was owned by the allies before World War Two, 94% of the world's oil reserves. So how are the expanding economies of Japan and Germany supposed to do anything when all the other empires were savage 200 years before, but are now acting like, we just sip tea, but there's savagery buried in history and then dressed up with romanticism. And then they're left here saying, we have no energy. How are we supposed to provide for our people? And then they get some ideologies to go with it. And they're not the best ones always, because the quickest way to make a group, do you guys know it? - Fashion. - Find an enemy. - Find an enemy. - It's like a logic, it is the quickest way to make a group. - Well, that makes sense, right? - Right? If us three hated one guy, we'd join up quick. - Right. - Get over here on the [bleep] (upbeat music) - I think I'm a real victim to nostalgia. And I say victim particularly, because I will say this also about like, I have a lot of video game buddies like streamers, Twitch streamers and things like that. And, you know, I'm very much an isometric RPG guy, so I love Diablo, right? And I love, like I played Path of Exile, too. - To play Baldur's Gate, too. - And I love Baldur's Gate, too. - A two, anther it, dude. I (bleep) - Two is my favorite game of volta. - Okay, and then like OG BioWare, like for example, like BioWare in general was like insane. But I will say this. - I will say this, I find myself like, I know Path of Exile is a better game than Diablo, okay? It is just empirically a better game. It has everything that Diablo has. And everything that Diablo fans have ever wanted in Diablo, it also has, but I just like Diablo. And I just like Diablo because I'm a victim to my own nostalgia, I am the guy who needs to see all the borders of the dumb shit working for me in order to actually lock in. And the thing is, I'm also that way with 40k. I'm also that way with Warhammer, so I've been trying to force myself out of that box a little bit and try to make the things that like, and I think a lot of us do this right now. Like my wife does this a lot too, where I realized this past year, Besides Widow's Bay, we hadn't watched or consumed. Any new television or film, everything that we had consumed was things that we had already loved. -I am on the same train. -Yeah. And it's tough for me to actually switch the hardest thing for me to bring myself to is to be like, maybe. -But. -But it just threatened to be stealthy over here. -By the way, then you were in the mud. -I know, and it makes the fish noises. -It's like Harry's going up there. -This is literally like, you'd find it and like, dumbledores off it. And Harry would drink it and all of a sudden he's a fish. And the fish is drinking from him. -You're going to have a wild ride home. -Wow! Get him the fish bowl. -Yeah, I just find myself, and I find it tough to, like, get snap out of that. You, I know, do not have that. You, like, you are so good at consuming the new thing that comes out. -Well, here's a question. -No. Are you talking about new authoritatively or new to you? -Both. -Exactly. So you can flate the two. -Both. -Or do you look at themselves? -For example, the only reason I watched Widow's Bay is because I'm like a massive lovecraftian horror fan. -I'm probably like TwinSpeak. I love Twinpeaks. -I love Twinpeaks. -When someone said. -Wondering Pines. -Exactly. Someone said to me, well, it has a lovecraftian element. It was enough for me to be like, okay, well, weirdly, I'm going to feel safe at the same time. I mean, I get that completely. Have you, have you played that fishing game that's lovecrafted? -Tredge? -Dreadge is awesome. -Oh, I'm seeing that. It was perfect. -I played that for like an hour, and I'm like, just ready to slumber. -Right. -And you're going slowly. -And I get scared when it gets dark. -I get so scared. -But, yeah, it's going out. -It basically just a crawler game. You're a fisherman in Maine, I guess. -Yeah, I don't, yeah. -The Rootsteel. -The Rootsteel of the Boat at night. -Yes. -That was seeing the singular fish. -Oh, my God. -Oh, my God. -I don't like that at all. -I was on a plane and I go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." So it's like, "Are you okay, sir?" -A little scary over here. -Oh, scary, but I understand that. But I guess that what I found kind of points to that is, I think that I'm not watching anything that is authoritatively new. However, I have had instances where I have found something that is new to me, and it has widened my vision. I'll use Berserk as an example. -I love that. -Right, so the reason I liked finding Berserk, I found it about 10 years ago, and I liked it because it gave me, here's the thing, it was new, but it gave me the feeling of being an 11-year-old watching an R-rated film I'm not supposed to know about. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Because there was a darkness in that. -I mean, when you-- -Here too, for if I was unfamiliar with. -When Griffith ascends. -Oh, oh, oh, so insane. -Because I have never felt rage for another man like that. This unholy rage, and have you guys gone through the manga? -I've gone-- I think I'm actually maybe a month away from being caught up. -I mean, it's very much the excitement that was elicited from you guys when I brought up Berserk, right? Because you guys discovered that outside of your nostalgia period. -Does it feel nostalgic? -I had an older stepbrother who showed me it at 9. -You got that at 9? -Yeah, which was way too-- -You make so much more sense. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -You'll be okay, buddy. -You'll be the fish. -You'll be the fish. -Nine at Berserk? -I mean, it's hopefully just the first part. -No, I read the-- -I saw the ascension in that. -Oh, my God. -Which, by the way, like-- -It does make sense. -It does make sense. -It's not traumatized anyone. -But it's basically-- that one is-- -But here's the thing. -It's a very graphic subject, man. -But they're not-- -We couldn't put that on screen right now. -No, there's some sort of genetic code that it shares with no country for old men. -Yes. -There's some sort of genetic code that it shares with evening redness in the West or blood meridian, right? I feel as though there's still part of me that is like, what else is out there like that? Because Berserk taps into something even though I didn't get it at age nine, right? And I think that, you know, it's not necessarily an essential truth or something, but it's undiscovered territory. Now I'll read almost anything. You know, I mean, I used to just, like, my grandma's my time out was, like, I was supposed to read the dictionary. So I just sit in the corner and read the dictionary. -Boy, that backfire-- -It had already been. -Boy, that backfire, thank you, grandma. -Yeah, I'm like, you ass and I entrol up. -So my mom, my mom will say-- -I don't know what you said. -My mom said-- -My mom said that swearing is the mark of low intelligence. And so I just got so creative with the swear words that she's like, "Well, shit, you're so dumb, mom." -Which is swearing, yeah. -Well, in all fairness, I was like, age six, run around chasing my cousin being like, "Get back here, you prostitute, because I mix that up with conduct or something." Or like, "Prosacute, I'm not sure." But I was like, "Mill under my five-year-old cousin, "you prostitute, I'll get you." -This reminded me when I was still a single man, I wrote like a sappy, like, secret poet, like, poetic love letter to a girl. -Oh, I know. -But I didn't realize that Jezebel was a bad thing. -Oh, no. -So I thought you sold Jezebel. -Did you pull her your Jezebel? -Yes. -Which I really f*ckly worked also if you write letters you're not supposed to win married. -Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, and by the way, she eventually found out it was me and was like, "You know that Jezebel "is not what you should have said to me." -I told you. -I was two-old, two-old. -It was in college? -It was college. -Oh, so here's the thing, man. I'm just wondering, like, the people, the older folks who knew these words, and like, when I used them, you know, in common-day conversation, where were they to correct me? -Yeah. -Like, did they not know? Or were they just like, he'll find out eventually. -But they thought you were funny. -You know, like, they didn't read the dictionary. -It's about seven times. -It's your body's flies open. I'm gonna be like, "Jezebel's a bad word." You know, we're just out there with these weapons, and we didn't even know it was a weapon. -I was already embarrassed to write it, and so I was more. -Oh, I can't even imagine. In spelling it out, too, it's hard. -Oh, I can't even imagine it. They think, "Those are horny letters." -I know those letters. -Yeah, it's like, "Jezebel is me." -Well, here's the thing, the shame at the end is silent. I called my dad a pussy when I was 10. -Oh, that's sick. -Yeah, I was in London. I go, "Dad, you're such a pussy." And the guy with a, we were with this British guy. He's like, "Chris, you let your son walk." Because I thought it meant "wussy" or, like, "wimp." But I never used the word. I literally cried for like four days. A weapon in a movie or book that can change is the best. You know, it's like a lightsaber coming out. It's a, you know, pulling out of the scab. -I remember the first time I saw Ivy and Soul Calibur. She had the, she had the Whip Sword. -Yeah. -First time I saw that, I was like, "That's a crazy shit." -But when the Razor go straight out. Goddamn, she's going down. -Oh, yeah. -Well, it's, here's the thing, you know. I often think, like, I'll think about, if you make a Pirates movie, what do you compare to? If you make a Wizard movie, what do you compare to? If you make a Space War movie, what do you compare to? Right. The creatives from the fifties through the '90s entered into an unfettered creative landscape. Now we're in one where there are lightsabers. There's already Indiana Jones's Bullwhip. There's all these things, right? So I was trying to find what can I find, what can I make that is different. I knew that if anything was had anything to do with a laser. -Oh, it's out. -It's out. It's a lightsaber, right? The whip, you know, from Indiana Jones. I thought about that, and so I wanted to cross that with a lightsaber, but I wanted to make it metal, because I think tangibility is really important, right? And tangibility also, like, if you see, like, if a guy has a, you know, a shield made out of energy, or is a shield made out of unobtainium, which one is going to feel more real to you as a reader, right? Holding it in your head, and it's probably the metal one. Right? But it's also the whip, you know, is. The whole thing is about slavery. -Yes. -Subjection. Right? Subjection from the Roman form of slavery, right? Which, in slavery, every single culture in the world, at least according to the Romans, and I'm reading the Tacitus and Pliny on this one. But, like, all these cultures had slavery. Like, that wasn't a question. It was just a matter of who was holding the whip, right? And so it made total sense for their weapon to be a whip, meet the sword. And so, I was, like, Indiana Jones, lightsaber, and then it matched the, kind of, the thematic connections to the thing. -I do, I do. I do also. -Servo is servo, servo, and Latin means slave, etc. If you mix it up, because he's not a slave. I feel like melee is still kind of rule of cool a little bit, right? -Oh, yeah. -Are you subject a little bit to the rule of cool when it comes to. Oh, I'm subject to the rule of cool. I mean, I stand on the shoulders of giants. My idea, my entire concept of being able to do science fantasy was influenced by two books, "Dune" and "Princess of Mars." -Yeah. -Edgar Ice Burrows. -My most favorite book. -It is "Mars." -It loves it. -Brilliant series. And, like, incredibly ahead of its time, it never gets enough love. And the movie wasn't that bad. -It's actually pretty good. -I will stand behind John Carter. -I love John Carter. -It's a good movie. The little frog guy's cute, you know? The action's good. And the guy from "The Wires." He's funny. He's blue eyes in it. -Yeah, and I also feel like the Taylor Kitsch. -Yeah, Taylor Kitsch. -I feel like he got a bad rap about that. He was, by the way, he was, I think he was a bit of the sacrificial lamb for studios at that time. -It was the "Enter-Standard" too. -And the director? -It had the director to do with him. I don't know why he caught dude. -The director forced him. -I had asked Taylor. I came out here in 2012 and I was pitching red rising 'cause I wrote it in 2011. In 2012 I was pitching it. It's published in 2014, but I was pitching it as a movie. And I got asked by three different executives at three different studios, 'cause Mars needing moms had just come out in John Carter of "Mars." -It's the worst moment. -Can it be Venus? -No way. -Can it be Venus? And I'm like, "And what is Venus, the God of God?" And I should have tried better because then I'd be so ready. for Romanticism! I know. Venus Rising. There is a Venus Rising. And here I'm stuck with this war boss. You'll get a kick out of this. There was a on the set of the Sweet Life which was a children's show alongside a lot of other children's show and the Nickelodeon. I remember I saw him say "Mirkut." Oh yeah, yeah. The Bull! The Bull is right in there. So every Thursday or every Wednesday, the network would come down and give notes on the script. One of the, it's notorious now, but one of the shows that was happening had it like an alien plot. Like aliens came down and like interacted with the cast and yada yada yada. And one of the notes to the writing team was that's not what an alien would say. And they eventually ganged up all together between the groups and wrote like a short book of the stupidest network notes called "That's not what an alien was." That's brilliant. Isn't that awesome? Is that floating around? I've never been able to find it. It could be another lie for me, but that's what I heard. Say no more. I have a quest. A quest about a rare book? Pears. Yes. I heard a rumor. It wasn't right in the book. It's not sure I didn't do it. You put the character's name in a hat and you pull a name out and whichever name you get regardless of who it is, you have to kill them, right? So is this true? Yes, it is true. It started in 2011 when I was writing "Red Rising." I wanted to illustrate the capriciousness of war and best laid plans and so forth. And it's often, I mean, how to say it, so much is out of your hands that I felt I was being dishonest if it was all planned and I was not killing off important characters. So I thought it was a great way of having to add something that makes me shape myself around the randomness of war and then the plot around it, but do it when I get to that scene. And so I got to a scene and I put in all the names except for one because he's our narrator. I assumed you had to leave it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no leaves for one, you can't get the name out. What am I going to do now? And I pulled out a name and I thought no one's going to read this thing because I'd written six books beforehand and no one wanted it. I had 130 rejections from agents. You know, I'm like, the toothpick guys, you know, going between jobs and I just, I'm like the toothpick guy. You know, no one's listening to my hair-brained ideas. And so, you know, and I write "Red Rising" and I'm like, you know, I think that if this isn't it, I'm not cut out for this. I'm just at bad taste. I really feel like this is it. But I got to the scene that it happens and I pulled out a character and I was like, shit, because I had plans for that character. Quite a few plans, but it felt and I put it back in. And I'm like, I'll try again. I'm like, no, that's cheating, that's cheating. Right. And back then I had no readers. So like, who am I? I'm just, if I can't be honest with myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great one. And I'm like, no, as you read anyway, lo and behold, like most people's favorite character in the first book. Do you? So I've done it several other times. Yeah, I was gonna ask you to. And do I bring it with me? No. I don't bring my hat with me. Yeah. This, I will say, is not the regular hat. I figured we'd talk Karmic McCarthy, so I figured I'd show my texasides, so. No, that is a lot. Yeah, I appreciate it. What size had you got? A big one. Yeah. He's a big hat guy, too. You know, really. Normal hats don't fit. You should have been a local anchor because they say the proportion of your success or your career is proportionate. Size the hat. Yeah, you know well. I'll be on the news right now. You must add a dad and media in the 90s. With a huge hat. I say I have a big head that give me a hat and they're like, oh, God. They have to get a new hat. Well, I have some names in here, but I'm going to take these off the side. You want to try this one? Let's see if that fit. Not, not the way. Almost you have a huge head. I've been outhead. Not your first time. Not your first time. Right out of my ****. I'm right on my belt. Okay, wait, hang out a lot, don't you. Yeah, not just a little bit. We're sharing our other people too. No, no. We don't like any of them. All right, so I hear you guys wrote these names down though. So, right? Yeah, so these I think are guests and future guests, right? If you guys and then us too. Somewhere in there, I really hope you'll be pulverine. I hope it was just me the whole time. I'm just I'm just pulling one, right? Let's have them perish a red rising fate. Yes. Let's say in your universe and you can choose which color they work. I'll do this how I actually do this. Could I have seven more beers? Yeah. So I've done tissues. Yeah, I've done it. I've done it several other times throughout the series and I've pulled one for red god and it has arrested the writing process for a bit. Is that the holdup? Okay, so I got I had this one. This is what I reached for. All right, okay. Do we see it? It's a funny guy with a huge head. Brandon Columbus. No, this true. Yes, yes. Oh, your mom can do five months. I'm almost going to die, dude. Brandon being so prodigious of thoughts. His mind kept expanding until he was obliterated by an obelisk coming down, sacrificed by the box popular eye for the people. Oh, yeah, everywhere, everywhere. A cranium so big. It got on everyone's face. Do you like take it well? No. What? No, you then looking like everyone else in front of you. A pancake. I thought I could die. No, no, no, obliterated by an obelisk. The box poppy guy kills one way. They have gravitational devices on obelisk, imagine ancient Egypt and then they lower it down on front of you. Oh my god. And head wounds already bleed a lot. Imagine with this. That's just a body. That's in everything. Yeah, it's my entire all my bloat. Yeah, it's gone. Yeah, I look great though for the beach. Your secondary thought with death that I was thinking about was, you know, you were on the inner webs and because you have YouTube premium, you're getting a little too much information. And the problem is a green hacker got in and they know your potential. You know, even if you haven't quite reached it yet, but they know it because they built an algorithm that exponentially goes out there. And so what they did and you'll get to see a bit more in red god is how greens fight each other. And so they sent a virus in you, which basically made your brain overheat. And so you died by your brain swearing. We're doing like scanner stuff. That's a second error, but it seems evocative and it didn't have the ass man. Assidence of obliterated by an obelisk. An obelisk covered that. Well, thank you very much. You actually maybe just make a voice note for me of a few other ideas you haven't been dying. I'll fall asleep to this later. I'll text you about this later. What if this actually happens to me? You know, you're going to feel an obelisk falling on you. Here's the thing about iron rings. You know, iron rings are great and everything. But they got a set of first wave to eat up the enemy interceptors. We know that now, right? Yeah, right. So they call that the chaff. He's a chaff guy. Big chaff guy. Big chaff guy. Big chaff guy. Big chaff guy. Big chaff guy too. Iron ring would come down and they go, whoa, there's one chaff guy left. It's just me two heads in my hand. With a broom and a broom on your back. No. A razor. A razor. A razor. A razor. Actually, I kind of like that. It's like the army of the dead bees red rice. There we go. That's right. You totally killed that. Well, Pierce, you know, we we had watched some of your interviews before you came on here. Brian had told us that you guys are going to be friends. I am happy to tell you that it's just seemed 100% true. It's really been. This has been fun as hell, dude. I had a great time. I'm really excited to figure out our secret handshake. Pierce, thank you so much for coming on. You've been a lovely guess. Did Pierce Brown just write my death? That's awesome, dude. Bro, if that's how you die, then he's not on me. He's a prophet. You would feel bad, though. He'd be like, "Cat, I shouldn't have said that." I don't think he would. I should have said surrounded by his family and old age. That was a blast. I don't think I've laughed that hard in a long time. He's a wildman. I was going to say, so in the book, the Highlers, that's kind of Dorrow's Wildman. They're these wild, like, wolf-like guys that go, "Oh!" and they drink beer and they're crazy. So he kind of made a fantasy about the wildman. We got my day off to soon for it. Get some of that red rice and money back. You still are like this, unless you join the wildman. He's in without a doubt. No, that was fun as heck. I also think there was that question ahead of time when we were like, "How much do we want to jump in and ask him about the nitty-gritty of the series?" Which I'm really glad we didn't. We didn't have a single second to ask him anything. I don't think. It was like once the conversation started, we was kind of like, "I couldn't think of any of the questions we weren't going to ask him because it never stopped. There's never a gap." No, no. He was easy to talk to and he was incredibly smart, well-spoken. He knew his shit clearly. It's a guy who's writing books that I'm happy to see is succeeding. That's what I'll also say. That to me, I don't know, maybe I just presume, I don't know. Maybe it's the same way people talk about actors. I don't have many author friends. I don't think I can say that. I don't think I might not have won. Yeah, we won now. Now I have won. I hope he says yes. But I will say it's really cool to see how amenable he was. You know what's also sick? Which I think in writing, you don't get as much as movies. Actor in a movie can be in this movie. It's sick guys go watch it. He created this all by himself and it's all his writing and he knows it's cool. And he was mentioning it, and he's talking about parts he put in that he's proud of. And I think to be proud of your work is underrated. I hate false modesty, and he goes, you know what, it was sick as (beep) when I put in the razor, and he knows it. And he's right, and he let him have his laurels. So that's why I was happy to talk about like the rule of cool thing too. I was like, 'cause at some point or another, you do have to suspend a little bit of like, I don't know, especially I see actors do this a lot. Where actors, like when they're getting interviewed about the projects that are in, there's a certain point where I watch these interviews, I'm like, aww, I was like, shot up, like we know about the craft, the art, the this to that. Tell me what you think was like bad ass about what you're doing. Like you can say you're in a movie where you're fighting people like in Hong Kong, and think it's cool as hell without talking about the art. - It's allowed, you shot somewhere in the head, it's sick. - It's a squib, yeah. - Yeah, it's awesome. It was like, when my good buddy Tim, he was at a award show, he went up in, - Just Tim? - No, last name? - Oh, sorry, Tim. - And Mr. Tim. - Shamily. (laughing) He went up and said, I'm proud of my work, and I want to be one of the greats. I go, God damn, that's cool. 'Cause we usually-- - Wait, it's like you're legitimately calling Tim of the Echalamet your buddy. - You were close, yeah. - After that podcast came out. - I thought that was a bit, but you actually said that with such conviction. - I think it's him, we've been texting his WhatsApp. (laughing) Me and this guy on WhatsApp, the text, I hope it's Tim. (laughing) - You found him on Facebook? No, but he's proud of what he does, and he's cocky about it, which I like, 'cause usually we reserve that for sports players, right? - I know, you wanna see someone humble. - He's kinda like this, but no, I wanna see a guy that's good at what he doesn't know it. - Oh, lady. - I'm over it. - Kaling Clark. - She knows she's good. - Exactly, I'm over it. I'm over the false humbleness too. 'Cause by the way, when someone's humble, they're also realistic about how good they are. - Yeah, yeah. - You have to also be realistic. Like you can be, you can be LeBron James, and be like, well, yeah, I know, I know I'm really good, but I'm also like a family man. - Exactly. - You don't have to pretend that you're like, sometimes they're fishing for compliments. - Oh, I'm not that good at acting. It's like, come on, you are. - I'm not that good at acting. - Yeah, you're right. (laughing) - What? - Almost, almost blind broke. (laughing) - Well, that was fantastic, I thought. - That was fantastic. - What a great interview. I'm gonna be, what book are you in now? - I'm done with all sorts of things. - Oh, you're done. I need to finish, I'm so behind, but I need to obviously finish the first book, but I bought all of them. So I'm excited, now I'm excited because not only did I already like what I was reading, but now I know what I'm reading is awesome, and I like the guy who wrote them. - Well, I was gonna say I'm almost jealous. - Yeah. - I almost wish I didn't read the books, 'cause now that I know, I'm like, oh, now I get his mindset, and he's cool, and he knows history. - Which is, I mean, just awesome all around to anyone who can't sense our excitement. Please go and read these books. - Read, read, rise, immediately. - And, you know, just keep on waiting for the next book. He didn't tell us when it comes out. - So, it's probably smart of him. - Maybe when Dylan's done with these books, he'll be out, but, you know, we gotta do this. - I do, I doubt it, I can't read their past. - All right. - All right. - Can we clap first, though? (upbeat music)