Recovery Talk

Hola, we're going to live for the first time here with Recovery Talks with Stonewall Recovery. Fucking Steve, as if I forgot your name. Yep. Okay, I forgot my name on the fucking line. So welcome to Voices and Recovery Podcasts with Recovery Talks with Steve from Stonewall Recovery Center. We try to do this every month. I think we have done it every month for the summer. Yeah. We said we missed August. I don't think we did. I don't know. Anyway, if y'all remember, you can hit us up and let us know in the week one in August. Yeah, and if you're on the live, ask us questions if not, you're listening to the podcast. We'll reiterate the questions that come in through the lives and you can hear them and hear our answers. Yeah, and I'm really sorry for the, if I miss you on our live, it's because I'm not used to paying attention to that stuff. But I will try to pay attention if I can. Anyway, Steve, how are you? The honest answer is I'm tired. Okay. I'm emotionally tired mostly, physically tired, followed after that. Let's talk about it. What's going on? Well, it's just, I got to grab my water, fuck. Sorry, people, I'm going to grab a water, you know, great back, he's getting a water. I meant to grab one for him and I was obviously a root host, so I forgot. Yeah. So it has been like a busy few weeks and in that few weeks a lot has happened in terms of in our community and in our city. So I'm speaking on behalf of myself as to why I am exhausted and having to use a little bit of a cane today to walk, it's just been a lot. So anyway, Steve, take it away. How are you feeling? You said you're tired. I'm emotionally and physically, it's like, I mean, I was talking, I forget with who, and we were talking about what brings us joy. And in a healing journey and a recovery journey, I mean, we have to reinvent that, it seems all the time. Yeah, to try to find what really does bring us joy, right? Yeah. And I also, you know, I have a record player. So listening to records, listening to bands from beginning to end makes me feel good. Like it's, I don't know that it brings joy though, right? It's trying to find that space that allows your mental exhaustion to subside because mental exhaustion, yeah, mental exhaustion, rarely. Like you wake up, if you're mentally exhausted, you wake up and you're fucking exhausted. Yeah. You're just pretty much exhausted all day, right? You know, you're just completely, yeah. And so I have been, and it's another word for it is burnout. So with building Stonewall and doing the work that I do and working with people, I forgot where my joy was. And for the last three or four years, everything but recovery, other people's recovery, and that sort of stuff became my entire focus. So even now, it's like I'm tired. And I'm working really hard to find that space to rejuvenate. You know, and I was saying to the person this weekend, and I was like, I used to get my joy meeting people one on one for coffee, but that's my life now. And I no longer find it as like you're looking for that connection, that attachment, that give and take of a loving, caring relationship that is not an intimate partner, right? That is just that back and forth. You and I do a for coffee all the time, and it's amazing in that way. It's just, sometimes it feels like it's still part of my work. Well, and oftentimes, it's like I was just thinking of that, like even when we have coffee together, and we're two friends, but we're also colleagues. And so when we have coffee together inevitably, we do talk about work. Absolutely. And so of course, that crossover. And I think this is like, this is something that I learned, like 100 years ago, working in larger organizations. Larger organizations tend to be, I'm going to use the word in "sidious." And the reason is only because people tend to only then hang out with people they work with. This is my whole point, right, is it's not a bad thing, it's because we're in proximity all the time. 100 percent, right? 40 hours a week, you're spending with these 100 percent. And there's so much crossover between work and personal because we're both in recovery. And this was something that I think you and I have talked about this a few times. But like, when we first started Freedom's Path, it was all, it was 24/7, right? And just like what you're going through, like at this stage, we have obviously evolved thankfully holy shit a little bit beyond the, me having to work seven days a week, right? Because I could not sustain that as you've seen, right, like, and you will not be able and nor should we have to and nor should we try to like literally Darcy and I were just talking about it on the walk up here about what I'm going through physically with my physical and mental health right now is a direct result of my work of holism. Now I've said this for many years, I've worked with work, other work of holics through my career as a social worker and we all inevitably come to a certain point where our health is jeopardized by the work, right? And it doesn't matter what work you're doing if you're doing it constantly. That's what I'm throwing out there. So it's not just, it's not just working with in human service fields. It's working in any industry. If you're only working and when you're off, you're also only hanging out with folks you work with. Sorry, see I'm looking at the live thing and I'm trying not to get distracted but of course I'm easily distracted. We both are. I'm a relatively unevolved like primate so you have to remember that. My lizard brain is still almost fully intact and in charge. Well anyways the work of holism has a direct like a consequence but that's also was ingrained into my recovery process, right? It's like we're talking about recovery and one of the things you go into certain spaces and they're like one of the things in the gamblers on this program is a big old thing with filled the void because we spend so much time in the casinos or gambling or doing things. Or drinking or whatever. But there was this now this big gap of places where you were and it talks about filling the void and what do they tell you to fill it with? Work. So I was in therapy and everybody you should all be in therapy, we all need therapy at some points. Well I definitely know I need therapy and I go and it's that piece I was like so I was talking about it and it's like my therapist asked me and he goes what part of your life isn't production related? Where you're always trying to produce, you're producing healing, you're producing activism, you're producing outcomes, you're producing, you're producing and even when you're at home with a relationship with a loved one you're producing love like where is it in some cases? Like that's the extreme. No I got you I understand. But it's like you're producing and you're always in production. So and I kind of interesting question, you know I kind of re garnered my life and I'm an open book for anybody and so I went back to one of the times and in my previous life I had affairs, right and I always say that I don't regret the people, I regret taking the consent of my partner away because they didn't have the choice to be in an open relationship or not, they were just there because I was out and having an affair and it really clued into me in that moment. One of the draws of the affairs was there was no production, yes you weren't, you weren't required to produce anything. You weren't, you were just there with that person in connection, there was in that moment in that was it and there was nothing in that it and so I looked back on it going, I looked back on it going well even though I couldn't tell you then that I was using them for that purpose of settling my brain and settling my body and settling everything because I didn't have that language, I looked back on it now and I'm like well holy shit, I was using them to settle my brain, settle my body and not be in production. So do you think that's when the, sorry man, you got my brain on fire and do you think that's when we start to consume people as like a substance because I think of like 100% you've got me thinking about when I was still out there drinking and practicing and selling my body. So like going back to work, selling my body was a part of my job, one of my jobs but I also enjoyed physical intimacy with people I liked and so of course the crossover even in that became I don't even know if I like sex anymore. This was years ago obviously I've changed that. You've changed that? Yeah and I mean I changed some things that helped change some other things, right? But that same crossover in terms of, because I remember when I look back anyway, not in the moment, but I do remember looking back at when I started to first. consume people instead of like connect with people yeah like because the consumption is much different 100 percent but that was my consumption as well yes because I have such a low self thought of who I am sometimes yeah I would seek out relationships to tell me that I was a good person you were worth it that I was worth it and you know they would look at me and they and I used to think it's funny this is how fucked up our brain is when we're in a lack of healing you and I could be connected we're best friends we're whatever we're lovers we're whatever it is and you and you tell me you're a good human yeah my brain would tell me they're just saying that because they have to say it yeah I would need to find people who weren't directly connected to me yeah for them to tell me I was a good human for me to only believe it just for a nanosecond but it brought it belief into me so now over my healing journey is realizing that the people closest to me when they say I'm a good human they're actually the ones that matter yeah where it wasn't before well they're the ones you would know yeah would know would have more knowledge 100 percent yeah so they would have more knowledge and I'm not surrounding myself by people who are not going to call me in yeah they're going to call me in if I don't done something wrong or said something in an inappropriate manner or whatever they're going to say hey well I'm back that up you need to have a conversation about this yeah so why wouldn't I believe them yeah and and that's what shows me that folks care is when they tell me the truth about 100 percent and when they don't you know and I don't have people in my life that are floppers you know I have I used to have a lot of floppers yeah I used to have a lot of floppers I used to be a flipper I think for folks yeah but then I realized that that's not helpful what's really helpful is to be honest with people and that doesn't mean and then when I say honesty I'm not talking about this like honesty that I was taught that is like brutality because that's not honesty that's just brutality yeah you can if you can't tell someone the truth without being an asshole that's a lacking on your part not on their part like because it's kind of like when I think of when I resort to telling the police to fuck off say okay it's because in my brain in that moment I have a lack of resources and I'm telling you the truth because I've examined myself through this when I respond like that it's because I am in a moment of trauma I'm being triggered so I'm not able to articulate what I really want to say which even though which is you're not safe for me yes you're not safe for me get the fuck away from me it is part of what I want to say yeah but what I really need to say is you're not safe for me I need to get out of here yes right um and so but those things are easier said than done when you're in the moment like anyone else but we are also taught right from a very young age the walking away was the wrong thing to do yeah that you're a coward if you walk away or something or whatever you being just respectful you're this you're that the the list is endless on what we were taught to believe I have so much toxicity in my head yeah when it comes to those kinds of things that we're talking about like just walking away there is like five voices in my head at any altercation with someone at least five saying one thing or another and they're all different and because when my brain shoots into protection mode my my options are limited now I know they're limited I try to pay attention to that and sometimes I do but of course there's certain environments where my brain will not respond in any other way but self-defense right especially when there's bullies and cops are bullies so when when they start bullying and pulling their shit my little kid who was bullied because I was a chubby little kid I was bullied all the time that little kid comes out and says no you can't bully me no more I'm big I'm big yeah and also I made a promise to myself as a little kid that when I got big I would never let this happen again yeah so we're honoring that promise but maybe not in the most healthy way depending on what we're doing that's right you know you got the parents that are abusive to their kids or whatever and they're like the kids growing up and going I'll never do this and they make that promise yeah but then they break that promise not even realizing they've done it and they become angry and they have no idea why because deep down that little kid still going you promised and you're doing it again yeah or however it shows up those promises that we make as children of what we will or will not become are really tied into our own healing journey 100% so because part of why I will not be bullied is because I realize I lived as a bully yeah do you know what I mean there was a period in my life where I was not a mild-mannered human where I did I didn't know I was doing it until I got out of it right and realized that that's exactly what I did I didn't have to like physically push people around because I was bigger I could just like show up and say things and then no wonder I felt entitled when people didn't listen to me right like when I was working say as a special constable and people don't listen to me and I'm like oh you better fucking listen because I power now that's a bully right right but it was because like and I'm not taking away but it's that idea that you were doing is like wait I don't have to be bullied anymore now I have the power to protect myself I just it's our brain doesn't isn't able to commute or compute what it is that we need to protect ourselves from yeah it's everybody because everybody was a threat that's right and when you're when you're in that capacity you get to protect yourself and your co-workers and you get to think that that's what you're supposed to do and matter of fact though you're supposed to be protecting the people right that's and that's where I went wrong this is why I could never do that job any longer than I did was I learned about it and I realized I can't do it like I I don't want to take people's liberty away that is being fucking awful especially like I don't want to get off on that tangent because obviously like that spins us out but we're talking about the dynamics of the inner child who was bullied encountering bullies today right and as we heal what you mentioned the healing aspect of it that does not mean that we are free from the triggers that just means we're aware fuck it's isn't Instagram yeah the idea yeah like Instagram is like do this and you'll never be triggered again no the truth is I'm gonna be triggered in different ways and I've done even a big fan of that word yeah I'm gonna have emotional reactions yeah for the rest of my life in different ways and as I heal different things the reaction in moments will subside yeah and they will increase and they will subside depending on where I am now if I become aware of my body and aware of my mind I know like oh I don't I can now articulate yeah I don't feel safe yeah I can articulate I don't feel safe yeah so when I don't feel safe and I articulate that then I have the ability to now go through what will make me safe yes and if it's a partnered relationship or if it's a friendship or if it's a working space and in some cases just like I'm dipping peace I'm out yeah right well sometimes that's the answer sometimes giving the space for yourself and for others is the answer right but that's the recovery see and that is part of the thing about the talking about recovery today people have to learn when they're in early recovery one of the things they would I would love for people to learn is what does giving yourself space looks like because we're told not to yes community is one of the biggest healing things ever and I will always say community is important having people around you community around you but what about just having you what about being comfortable with you and taking that and going oh not saying I'm gonna isolate in the basement and and do something I'm saying is like oh I'm gonna be okay if I just sit yeah for an hour don't pick up my phone yeah don't do anything and just be just be just be in my own presence right they're early recovery as we're told to fill fill fill fill fill fill fill fill well I fucking sure did and so did I am in my early recovery and I'm doing it again yeah one of the things about it is like when we talk about it is I was well when we're in stress though we go back to what we know right and I am looking at some of the recover some of the healing and some of the behaviors that I had when I was active in my addictions the survival mechanisms yeah that are there and I'm like oh I'm doing them again and I'm not aware of all of them but we've a couple popped up this week and I'm like oh okay well and and one of the things I find I mean I we've been sober for a while from our from our lives that part of our lives yeah one of the things I was thinking about was just the evolution of sobriety right like if we don't take into account the fact that we're also getting older yeah and that our hormones are different like if like when I sobered up I was 30 at 30 right yeah 30 so I hadn't turned 30 I was still 29 32 yeah I was 29 for one month and then I turned 30 and I'd been sober for a month right I I arrested whatever I stopped gambling. I stopped doing a lot of stupid shit. And started working on myself on my January of my 30th year. So it would have been 29, going on 30, and August is my birthday. So I started, look at that. - We're twinsies. - We're twinsies. And honestly, when I sobered up though, my metabolism moved at five times the speed. So I couldn't assure you because I could feel it back then. I could feel how my metabolism moved. I didn't keep anything in me. I worked out seven days a week for three hours a day. This was how I dove into sobriety. And of course, I got injured from overtraining, but I overtrained for years, man. Until finally I couldn't anymore, right? But just to think that I'm gonna feel the same at 52, as I did at 30 when I was brand new, I really hope I don't. And I'm glad I don't, right? Because the truth of the batter is, if I feel the same, I'm not taking into account the fact that I've changed. - That's 22 years. - Oh, the changes that we go through. - Right. - And I'm not just talking about emotional or spiritual, if you believe that's a thing, I mean physically, biologically. - Everything. - Yeah. - And yeah, everything. Everything's changed. The person I was 22 years ago, most of the my friend group today, wouldn't be in friends with that person. - Yeah, me too. - Right, like that person. - It was trusted. I mean, they already trust me now, let alone 22 years. - But 22 years ago, most of the people that I had or their circle probably wouldn't have been friends with me because of a plethora of reasons. The wounds, I was still wanting to bleed all over everybody. - Oh yeah. - And that gets tiring when you are constantly in it. And that's one of the areas where I know that I'm emotionally tired right now, is because I'm feeling like everything is like either I have to unload on people and tell them everything, which is not healthy. Or I have to be there and have them unload on me so I can be somewhat of an emotional tourist and forget my own problems by listening to somebody else's with us also, not healthy. It's a one-sided relationship. In our recovery, we have to be able to go and our healing has been flowing in and out. Right, you're giving me, now I'm taking, we're give and take where in a lot of our relationships, we see them and because it's all only giving or taking. We're building, you're helping, but we're building Stonewall. And one of the biggest things is because it's on their, it's about recovery, it's about giving people the autonomy to recover in their way. And I'm just curious if it's changing. Of course it's changing, people come and go. But we're building it and the downside is because one of my areas that I need to work on is my relationship will call it my relationship with money. Right? It's never been healthy, like gambling was my addiction. Of course it hasn't been healthy, yeah. But the side of it is, I see everybody now and I'm like, oh, are you able to support Stonewall? Are you able to support us? Are you able to support our mission? Right? Are you able to support these different things? And the problem is, is I see everybody and I think I should send somebody, sorry dude, I said somebody like 10 MB, it's gonna be like, it didn't see that it was 10 MB. I was sorry, yeah. And I'm just seeing everybody as a, as a, as this idea of like, especially within the community is like, how are you showing up? How do you do it? You said it's a good idea, how do you want to donate? Everything is about, and I forgot that my whole core of who I am is about relationship. Everything else will follow but I forgot about the relationships because I was always trying to sell something like Stonewall and the need for it and I'm just like, so having to back that off too. Yeah, in my journey. Yeah, and that's important though. It's important to remember and to feel whatever we may recognize as like a limitation because we have them and it's okay to have limitations. Like, it's also okay to put limitations on yourself if you need to. One thing about healing that I've experienced is that it's not easy and it's dirty sometimes and it's painful and just because you're in pain doesn't mean you're not healing. No. And I think there's-- I do most of my healing in pain. Well, I mean, I think most of our growth comes from pain and so like, it's all a part of the same process and just because you're in pain doesn't mean you've relapsed emotionally or otherwise. One of the things I think about often is just like, how people make it through pride, queer folks, who also utilize chemicals, maybe who are trying to stay sober, right? And this year, experience quite a bit of the struggle, right? From folks that it is a real struggle to-- I'm supposed to invite people in here. No, I just need to go. Oh, okay. I don't know what to do. I just-- I don't know what to do. So I'm really sorry everybody. Yeah, it's okay. Oh, what would we do? Do we talk about the queer folks and-- Oh, how they struggle to pride and everything else? It's much like for those of us who are queer in sobriety, I experienced this year's pride to be kind of like a stampede for straight people. Do you know what I mean? Where there's just lots of drinking, lots of use, and I'm not criticizing that, not at all, 'cause I don't drink or use, so I was fine. But it is one of those, how do we find a way to celebrate pride and our joy without having to do those things? If that's what we're used to doing, right? Like, we've been away from our stuff for a bit. So it might be easier for me. And I know that it probably, well, it definitely is easier for me now than it was 22 years ago. A lot of percent. 'Cause 22 years ago I wouldn't have gone to any sort of celebration, it would have been too risky. But I also want to talk about the fact that our community, we, I see so much love during pride, is what I'm getting at. And I feel so much love and feel so like able to just be myself. Now, part of me is talking about this because I have some friends who don't participate in pride. And I totally respect that. And just because I did, doesn't mean that I don't respect them for not, right? Like, I believe that part of why I like pride is because I was in the closet for so long. And so it makes me feel a little bit easier about being completely open, right? Now, does that mean that I'm not open day to day? No, of course not. But I get to be, we get to celebrate each other. It's situational. Yeah, and I think like, for those folks out there who don't go to pride, I understand. I think like this year, I started thinking about it like, maybe there's something else that, you know, that we can do, but each person gets to decide. That's kind of where I left it was like, what's fun for you? If you don't go on a go, you don't have to. Like, and you're still a part of the community. Yeah, because there's all these different, I guess. For me, it's pride itself has many facets. And I put a video out on that one. And it's like, the problem that I find with some of the ideas around pride is that people get stuck on that it should only be one thing. That's kind of what I'm getting at, right? It should only be one thing. And I'm like, and it doesn't have to be. No, pride is not one thing. It is celebratory. It is activism. It is community. It is mourning. It is grief. It is all of those things in different ways. And that doesn't mean that we're forgetting how it started. No, right? That's a protest. Well, it started as a celebratory of a riot. Like, yes, when they had the very first pride and it was a march, it was in celebration of a year ago when the cops raided the Stonewall Inn. And they were celebrating that they got their rights. And I say, they, as in not everybody, because there was a lot of people in our community who did not get the same rights. Because rights are never given out completely. They're always going to hold something back. Well, that's why the fight continues. Because it pushes one group against another in our community. And that's what they want. But the other side of it is, is like, pride is so many things. Yeah, I agree. Trying to put it in a box and say, the only way you can be a part of it is this way, is a disservice, I agree, right? Is a disservice to all the queens out there that fought. Well said. Because they, I've been in military zones. I'm ex-military, I've been in military zones. One of the things that I see even with communities that are being obliterated in one way or another, they still find ways to celebrate. Some of them might not like it. But the ones that live are like, hey, I still have family. What kids have in a birthday? I'm going to celebrate. We're going to have a community. I saw that. the stuff over in Bosnia when there that was going on and people found a way to celebrate. I think right now in our community and the healing side of things we're ashamed to celebrate. We are hundreds of minutes to being attacked. We're in the midst of being attacked constantly so it's like how can you celebrate when this is happening? No, that's why I celebrate because those fuckers aren't going to beat us down. They're not going to win and as long as they're pitting us against each other in different avenues, they're winning and I'm not saying we don't have, we have a shit ton to fix in our community. But I think what you're absolutely right and I think, not but I think we have lots to fix. But that's and that's because we have been playing by their rules and we have been letting them dictate to us who we're mad at and who we're not. And once we get past that, I agree. I just think like this, honestly, this is like colonialization 101. You find a group with its ugly little, ugly little friend, capital, go within that group and then you point out folks who are different in the group and then you get the one part of that group mad at the other part for being different and not calling their way, doing, doing or whatever they call it, like becoming a part of that group. And I think that is 100% not how I want to be, because I don't want to be living by their rules. I don't want to have to be monogamous if I don't want to be and we don't have to be. But I also can be if I want to be, absolutely, right? And these are the things now that I just hope, you know, I have hope, obviously, I sometimes I don't, which is weird. I have hope today though. That's good. Yeah. And I have it, but hope is not constant. No, and I mean, it's not really a bad word. Hey, Sophie, it's not a bad word either. It's just that I haven't had a whole lot of it lately because it was been going on. Right. But literally through the Pride weekend and just kind of experiencing this stuff and thinking about what people are saying on top of my own ideas and saying, oh, that's interesting. And I think this is a really big boat and we can all fit, right? And that's just kind of how I feel about that. Yeah. And I think that that plays into what we're doing and what we're trying to do with recovery and try to do this is because everybody has tried to put us in a fucking box. Mm-hmm. I don't care if you're straight or not. Recovery has been in a box for way too long and this is the only way to do things. And the stats have been skewed and the truths have been skewed and we know that there's other ways to do things. There is not, that is, like, you once told me that it was one of the most miraculous things I learned is like you said, I don't want to be a joiner anymore. I don't want to have to join because then everything else goes at the window to be that in that space. I want to support what's right. I want to support what's right and I'm going to support what's right as it comes through. Right? So I was like, that actually was like kind of mind blowing for me when I'm like, oh, you mean I don't have to join? Mm-hmm. And I don't think it's necessary. I know for some people it is. It makes them feel a certain kind of way and that's cool. Hey, Lavakakes. Yeah, like, I understand some people do and I'm glad people do because we need to have, like again, this is one of those things where I'm not like looking at folks who do join and go, you shouldn't. I think thank you for joining and being committed in that way. I'm committed in other ways. And like, and I understand there's going to be criticism of how I ever we do things. No matter what we do. What we do. And that's okay. I'm going to say. Yeah. I would like to go one through one day without somebody telling me I'm a piece of shit. I mean, they'll get me wrong. I'm not suggesting it is tiring to be told you're a loser and all that because it gets tiring. It does. And, you know, like, and one of the things that I've experienced for the first time in my life over the last couple of years was being called a terrorist because I support Palestine and I support Sudan and I support Congo, like to be called a terrorist because you support people who are being genocide, like, kill leaders that are being murdered every day. I don't understand. So maybe some intellectual out there who has no heart can probably explain it to me. But the idea of that we have to somehow adhere to what our governments are saying, that's bullshit. The governments are supposed to be on our, like, they're supposed to be us. Yeah. That's where the governments are supposed to be and they're not us. They're so far from us. No. They're actually, they are actually that division that pieces in there and actually serves different groups. It's their duty. It serves capitalism. It serves the corporation and it serves us because we are, it's like, so to give a film reference is, you ever see a Game of Thrones? Yes. So in Game of Thrones, at the very, very first episode, episode number one, Stark is talking to his son. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. If you haven't seen episode one of Game of Thrones and I'm going to spoil it for you. But he asks the question, he goes, what is stronger, five or one? He goes five, I think. But he goes, no. It's five, acting as one and he holds his head up and then puts it to a fist. When five people are united, we're stronger than five of us wanting around, but we don't have to be adjoined. Like, I can come into this group and become part of the fist without being the fist. Being the fist, like, be a part of it when it's the right thing and then I come back. It doesn't mean that I can't move forward in my life and heal and grow. And I think part of our, I don't like saying that, so I'm going to say, I think something I see in the world today, especially among a lot of the queer community, is there punishing themselves for being happy? Let's talk about Palestine. This shit is going on and people are being murdered in Palestine, Sudan. All the way through the Congo, Iran, Iran, all of this stuff. And I think currently right now, under the world conflict tracker, I think there's 127 active conflicts in the world. And people get into their head of like, how can I celebrate when all this stuff is happening? And I'm like, that's why you celebrate. So you can mourn and grieve and be a part of it and go, this is atrocious and I'm not buying X, Y, or Z because I am supporting this. But I can also remember that I have to live because if I'm beaten down and I don't want to have the ability to move forward, then nothing's going to change. We have to remain in that space of going, okay, I'm going to remain strong, I'm going to remain powerful, I'm going to remain this, and I'm going to stand up for the people that I can stand up for and also the people who will let me, right? And then, to everybody else, I'm going to do my very best and if that's not good enough for you, I'm going to have to say okay. Yeah, because everyone's capabilities are different and I think it's okay to recognize that. Obviously, it's okay. Like, I think I was probably a lot of things growing up, an ableist would be one of them until I started getting older and realized that I was probably going to be crippled, right? And now that I'm older and I'm a little crippled, it's reality, right? So now that it's reality, I don't have any doubts, however, growing up, I had doubts because I used my own brain to make the determination that all these things were safe that I did. But of course, now, as we're older, it's just the accumulation of things, right? And that we have to be as aware of the accumulation on our bodies as we are in our mind, on our emotions, like, because everything wears down and so part of why I am not a joiner to go back to that conversation is that because I try joining and everything I joined ended up being like really the last thing I should have joined, like the military should not have. Like these are just things that I'm aware of are true for me, right? The things that I joined church, like those things, I regret all of it and I don't like, doesn't keep me up at night anymore because I kind of got used to those living with some of those regrets, but a part of my healing is not to repeat them, right? So I don't go to churches anymore and people can say whatever they want to about that, that it's fine to go to church, really. Anyone can go to church if they want to go to church. I simply don't go to places that I don't want to be anymore. And I don't want to be in church, I don't want people to associate me with those institutions. I don't work with police anymore, I don't do any of that stuff anymore because I don't want to be confused with those institutions and I know that I was for a while. Anyway, moving on back into the the healing space. But this is healing. Exactly. Again, this is something we try to separate from it going, yeah, understanding who we are is healing. And part of why I do that is because I come from a place where they do that all the time, where they try to make it about just, it's all your alcoholism. No. Everything's about your alcohol. The thing about it was that was like, I haven't drank in 22 years, but it's not about alcoholism in the mode alcohol anymore, yeah. It's like, it's gambling. It's this. No, those were survival mechanisms so that we could actually make it through the part of our life that we needed to make it through. That was a hundred percent. Until we were ready to do what we needed to do. Now, sometimes it takes a different way, but like, the fact is, is like, we want to give credit to this destruction of our life when our life was being destructed before. We just used alcohol, so we'd have to look at it anymore. We used gambling, so I didn't have to, I used to say, this was my exact, I'd go into a casino. I'm like, go and talk to my shrink. And we never talked to the casino because I spend on our money, I could have poweredly paid for quite a few drinks. But the thing is, is my brain shut off when I was there. I was only thinking about the dex turn of the card or the nexus or the nexus, and I had calmness. Again, but even in my addiction, it was about production, because I wanted to win all the money so I could be a good provider for the family. I'm blowing money out of the way. You know what I mean? That's the brain when we're in our active business. This makes perfect sense to me. It made perfect sense to me that drinking more would help me with my bipolar. I knew I was mentally ill, pretty young, but drinking was better. Drinking was way easier than going to a shrink when I was told growing up that shrinks her quacks. Yeah, shrinks her quacks in $26 is way cheaper. I mean, what are they costing now? $235 for a psychologist? Depending on how good you want. If you want a good one, it's like 500 bucks a hour. But the minimum they charge through CAP is $235 an hour. Think about that logically in Calgary. And I know some psychologists, man, they're not worth that much money an hour. I'm just going to throw that out there fair. But even in Calgary, the living wage is to say like $26 an hour. So did you say it's $25? Yeah. You got to work for like a full day plus three hours in a week to pay for one visit. Yeah, man. If you don't have benefits, and that's if you're making the living wage, a lot of the people aren't making the living wage. So it's just like, yeah, you wonder why people aren't getting psychological support or say, or anything else because they are, they're being, they're being, they can't afford it. They can't afford it. So I had this conversation with a parent of someone there. They're, they're called for information. So they call for information. The parent asks me, well, what do you charge? And I say, we don't charge anything. We base it on donations. This is with my charity. Freedom's path for carpentry society. So I say we base it on, we base it on donations from the community no matter what. And so this person, this parent goes, okay, but then when they get a job, they're, you're going to expect a donation from them. And I said, no, I said, I don't expect anything from them except to hopefully get well. Yeah. Because we, the group that I said, we started freedom's path with, we wanted to make sure that money was not an obstacle for people to get money because we recognize what Steve just said. How are you able to pay? And, and my rate would have been, would have been like 130 as a social worker, something like that. I mean, that would have been markup. But obviously, if you're going to go capitalist, you go capitalist. Probably would have been a lot more. I'm concerned on the numbers. I'm pretty low because I don't want to charge anything. So like, the fact of the matter is that would be a percentage of someone's monthly income that could have gone to rental food, right? Or could have made an impact in their monthly bill. That's just once a month, too. Lots of folks come once a week. So like, there's, there's a lot there that wouldn't be able to get any sort of support. Agreed. And I, and going back to what you said, like, I don't expect a donation. I don't expect one, but it's always nice when people remember to put forward. Oh, it's like, okay, the reason why we're here is because people made sure the ability for you to happen 100% and if you are now feeling in your working and you got all this stuff going on and you look back and you go, this person made an impact on my life. Fuck them. Or this person made an impact on my life. I'm going to support them to support somebody else. Yes. Is beneficial. It's amazing when folks can do that. And of course, we're not, I'm not going to say no. It's, it's a matter of, I just don't want that pressure coming for us. And it won't be. It's like, that's what I'm going to say. I'm just like, yeah. I always reiterate going, you know, and I've only exist because people give us donations. I've had people make donations and I've had people not. And I don't ever look at the people that are not going, what are you doing? I don't even remember. No. The only reason I remember the people that did is because I send them thank you notes. Yeah. It's like, okay, thank you for it. Well, and sometimes when folks make a donation, they'll, they'll reach out so we can chat, right? And they'll be like, hey, I was thinking about you and, and what you all do. And we just wanted to help. That's always wonderful. But of course, like, and that's, but why I came into this field when I was young was because I didn't want to charge for everything. No. I wasn't a capitalist. I'm not a capitalist. Do I live in the system and work in the system? Yes, I do. I'm a survivalist. I am a survivalist, too. But I believe we're going to find a better way. And I know that capitalism isn't the end. That's one thing I know for sure, because it's already coming to its own end, right? So unfortunately, there's just humans involved. And that means we're going to have to suffer for that. Hopefully we'll, it won't be the great depression, right? Like, yeah, whatever's coming. Something's always, here's the thing. Something's always funny. And something has, I know I was thinking that the other day, something's always coming. You always come last hundred years. Every year. Something's coming. Depending on, depending on which calendar you follow, there has been like catastrophe coming for a long, long time, as well as Jesus if you're so inclined. Yes. We're not. That's just what that fucker would hurry up and get here. Yeah, I'm joking. I think Jeepus is on his own time frame. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, everybody keeps having the end is near, the end is near. I'm like, yeah, he's got to get your timings better. Totally. Because now's a good time. You've got a Cheeto in office down, down south. And we have, we have like a literally a dictator in hiding up here, our Mr. Carney. Yeah, he's very subtle though. He's capitalist. He's a capitalist. He's 100% for this system. And that's all you have to know really about that guy. Anyway, not to get off track on politics, even though that's not off track either, because this is a part of healing. Because part of my life before sobering up was avoiding any of this shit, was avoiding talking about it, was avoiding thinking about it. We were told not to. And we were told not to, right? Like, I don't know anyone out there. If you were told these things of the dinner table, you don't talk about politics, religion, or sex. Yeah, or sex, especially if you're in a Christian household. Although when you're three boys and your parents aren't dumb, they kind of know what's going on. So, in our house, we've been talking about sex work since the girls were young. Yeah. We were not in that position. Yeah, I was made to be ashamed for my sex work. Yeah. And that's, that wasn't by anyone in particular, because I never told them I was doing it. That was by me and my internalized hatred for myself and everything on Jesus following. Hence why I don't follow Jesus anymore. Yeah. Or mostly I don't follow people who claim they follow Jesus. That's good. That the claiming is the acting is the difference. I always tell my partner, I'm like, you know, you ask me when this is going to change. And I said, I can't tell you that. But all I can do is show you with my actions. Right. I don't, I speak the words because that's how we communicate. Yeah. I back my words up by action. So when my action doesn't match my words, then you can say, hmm, it's two things. Oh, you say you this, you say you want to heal, but you won't go see your psychologist or you won't go see any healer for that matter because some of my best healers weren't psychologists. Let's just be honest. Yeah. And the other side of it is like, okay, so I need to heal. So I need to go see people who are going to benefit and further that healing. But I also can't make it my old fucking identity. Yeah. And part of my language is just like, we can't, oh, you got some of you asked to join. So they're joining you as a host. Hey, that's what? Somebody's going to come in as a host. Co-host. They're going to be on here talking as well. Oh, it's okay. So the idea is can't hear you though. Is your volume down? Oh, there we go. Hi. Oh, my goodness. You're speaking Swahili. Yeah. We're in Calgary. We're in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Oh, nice. Welcome. Welcome to the the feed David's blessing around and he figured it out no not yet we yeah he went hell of a podcast sorry I have to I have to go off here now of course you're very welcome nice to see you oh that's amazing yeah I don't know how you get to close I don't know how to do that either close the whole time so yeah story we are yeah I'll do just go but we're talking about in the idea of recovery we're talking about the idea of family when it comes to addiction and when it comes to the idea of addiction the idea of addiction is that the addiction was the problem and the addiction was not okay there we go and the addiction was not sorry about that folks and and sorry miss I can't seem to figure out how to get get rid of that sure but there's a there's a there's a comment on there oh and I love I love hate so it's talking about us not being men just because we have moustaches and and so back to you there just because you have a moustache doesn't make you a man my sister has a moustache too wow you must have like stayed up all night to think of that insult like that insult you where you were like you were like really working hard to come without why not not we did you insult try to insult somebody else but you attacked your sister which is like seriously seriously like what do you what do you do it attacking your sister come on now we're family supposed to love each other don't throw them down and then if you want we just do this and go drink I think I'm able to pause when you're going live okay so there's that one and now you're gone oh you just ended it just ended it to the man who had to get rid of people okay so we can start it again if you want no no we're not you have very short time left yeah short time anyway so we'll just keep chatting so yeah but I want to go back to something you said about pride and one of the things that I wanted to talk about maybe not in this one but in the future ones yeah and maybe we can get somebody to come on here and talk with us about okay I'm just gonna set it back up the internalized homophobia within the community and addiction the internalized homophobia within the community and addiction yeah and what I'm talking about is like within the like I work in this field I work with people and I listen to them and I listen to them talk and when we talk about like the party in place yeah we talk about different things a lot of the commonality yes is that I'm seeing is the fact that there's this internalized homophobia and the only way that they can actually love somebody of the same sex or where they feel comfortable enough to do it is to be inebriated not because it's like oh they're forcing themselves it's because they have so much shame that was put on them throughout their life yeah that the only thing that made sense to them was this yes and I think one of the things about healing when we talk about our community and our the reason why pride is important and why celebration is important yeah because if thank you for bringing it back to that and again sorry about the live folks were back on again yeah but keep going the celebration is important yeah is because I can't be ashamed of something I'm celebrating yeah well you you're less likely to be you're less likely yeah yeah you know it's like this like this this this piece is like okay so I need to I need to we need to talk about some of these things in our community yeah we need to start to share the fact is that you know we don't have to be ashamed yeah and and the funny thing is is when people are saying we have to live in this box it can only be one way yeah it's subconsciously they're saying we have to be ashamed oh yeah and every bit of every bit of criticism every bit of hate that comes out is designed to try to make us ashamed of who we are and so like I'm glad you brought it back to this because we would be talking about this for a few weeks and not just you and I but like many people yep because I know for me growing up and being bisexual a lot of the hate that I had come in my way was from gay men who also believed I should make a choice I don't obviously it's not that simple right like there's absolutely no way for it to be that simple it when I was growing up I was so I internalized the hate that the church put on queer people even though they may not have ever been talking to me directly because I tried not to let anybody know but I know that after a certain period of time people were talking to me because I got caught here's the thing no matter what they're always talking well and and that's always hitting the people like if you look at you're always hearing it even if you don't think you're hearing it you think that young girl who goes to ballet and even though she was in the other room but heard the instructors say oh you know you can't be overweight and be a ballet yeah that little girls and developed a needing disorder so that she wouldn't or whatever because of that language because of that hatred because of that stuff the church talking about it they might not have been talking well they're talking to any kid and person exactly that's right I think yeah they might not have said Steve or Dave or John yeah but they were saying Steve David John yeah they were saying they were talking to all of us without talking to anybody who was a part of that in the queer community in any way shape or form yeah they were talking to and so there's this this comes up like for me a lot lately is something that we're we talk about regularly continuously trying to process the trauma we went through in many different phases of our life for me that internalized hate where the church put in me led to me betraying my own community when I was like 18 and 19 I had to learn the hard way that that's not what you do if you're internalized homophobia and hate right and by that I mean I simply I tried to I was a part of being negative to my community in terms of like assisting law enforcement let's put it that way when I was 18 and 19 even though I was a sex worker at the same time so like like I said internalized hate as we've said many times is complicated right I hate myself still because of all of that internalized hate do I act out in the same way no I don't I don't act out on myself hate the way I used to because I'm starting to understand where it comes from and I'm starting to recognize the fact that I did not put that in there I did not teach myself to hate myself I was taught to hate myself of course by adults of all description by my own parents by by my parents when they didn't know they were doing it 100% by other people's parents when they didn't know they were doing it like these things just stick right and some of the some of what's helped me see kind of see where a lot of my shit comes from was reading a reading authors black authors this is part of what has allowed me to really start examining internalized hate right because if you read authors that aren't white you will inevitably read about folks being taught to hate themselves from birth and like that and and unfortunately that is what white supremacy has done not just to folks of color but also to queer people to to spirit people and all of that so that's what we're talking about right we're talking about healing from something that is incredibly deeply ingrained in us that's why when we work it's like even at Stonewall and I know that you're very similar with freedom's path I don't spend a lot of time asking about the substances yep not much I spend a lot of time saying what do you want your life to look like what does success look like for you when you sit down and imagine and dream one of those dreams look like and you might not be able to identify it right away and you come back and you say oh by the way this is what I'd like or this is what I'd like you know I want to be able to work I want to be able to be happier I'm able to pay my rent I only be able to do all these different things and that's okay so if that's your life then let's build a life to that yeah if the substance is a part of your life or not if you are living a better life everything else is irrelevant well because the truth of the matter is we change over time and so how how a chemical interacts with us would inevitably change as well potentially not for the better necessarily so I'm not suggesting people go out there and do their do do research if they don't need to you do what you got to do And always, always, and be as safe as you can. That's my best advice to folks. It's try to be as safe as we can when we are doing whatever we're doing. And that includes protesting as well. Be safe because there's energy out there right now that's pretty hostile. Which I also comes back to celebration, which is why I just think it's -- I can celebrate when I can. And that doesn't mean business as usual. Business has not been usual for me in a few years now. And that's because we are all trying to contribute to us not dying, right? There's folks that I work with and like Steve and other folks from different groups that are constantly trying to be there so folks don't die. Some folks who might use drugs and that might make some people feel like, "Oh, you're just enabling." We're not enabling anything except of life. I want to enable life. That is one of the things I will always try to do. I know we're coming to a close here and I know Steve's probably got to get back to a shit ton of work. This is always my fun. This is good for me. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time, Steve, and everyone out there too. Thanks for joining. I'm sorry about this live. We got cut off because we were trying to figure out how to do something. Anyway, I'll get better at this. We'll figure that out. Really thanks for coming on. If you did come on, pay attention to this week. This episode will come out. If you didn't get a chance to listen to the whole thing, it'll come out on Wednesday and we'll go from there. Yeah. Yeah. Send you all with love. I hope you have yourself a beautiful time. I look forward to chatting. If you want to do us a favor, tell us about your recovery. Take a journey a little bit and ask us to talk about things that are relevant to you. Totally. Send a DM. Yes. Send a DM. Yeah. You can follow us on any of the Freedom's Path or Stonewall DMing on TikTok or Instagram. Even Facebook was good to do, so yeah. We hope that you are safe, happy, and that you are loved, at least you're going to be loved by two people today. That's right.