Reclaiming the Trans Narrative w/ Chase Strangio and Miss Peppermint

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Welcome to the LeVeron Cock Show, a production of Shondaland Audio, in partnership with I Heart Radio. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable, is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. It's not like I've been upset every day when I woke up. It's that every single time when I read the paper, every morning, New York Times, putting out some other story attacking me. That's what's wrong. That's what's true. [laughter] Hello everyone and welcome to the LeVeron Cock Show. My name is LeVeron Cock. As of the day we're recording this February 16, 2023, over 300 pieces of anti-trans legislation have been introduced in state legislatures all over the country. That's since January of this year. And that legislation targets the ability of trans folks to access gender-affirming care, not only for trans kids, but for trans adults. And a huge reason why this legislation has been so successful is that the conversation with and about trans people has been captured by folks who don't want trans people to exist. I feel like a huge part of my work in the media since I have become a public figure has been about changing the conversation that we have with and about trans people away from surgery and transition and towards our humanity. So today we need to have a conversation about reclaiming the narrative with and about trans people from the perspective of trans humanity, from the perspective that trans people have a right to exist in the world on our own terms and have bodily autonomy. So to have this discussion today, I've invited two of my dearest friends, Chase Strangio. Chase is Deputy Director of Transgender Justice with the ACLU's LGBT and HIV Project and a nationally recognized expert on transgender rights. In addition to his litigation work, Chase leads the ACLU's advocacy to defeat anti-trans laws and state legislatures. Chase has appeared on Rachel Maddow, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, NewsHour, and many more. In 2020, he was included in Time Magazine's list of the 100 Most Influential People in the World. Miss Peppermint is the ACLU's first ever artist ambassador for trans justice. She is an actress and singer with six albums to her credit and many, many glad award nominations. She was a runner-up in season 9 of RuPaul's Drag Race as the first out trans contestant to be cast and made history as the first trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway in 2018 for the show Head over Heels. Some of her most recent work is who lose rom-com by her island and Netflix's Survival of the Thiccist. Please enjoy my conversation with Chase Tranjio and with Miss Peppermint. Hello, Chase and Peppermint. Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? Peppermint, how are you feeling? Happy to be with you here today and Chase, despite of all of the weeks and years and months and feels like millennia of bad news that seems to come down the pipeline attacking our community. But I'm great. Chase, darling, how are you today? I am. Here's what I was saying. When I woke up, I was not feeling today and then I was like, "You know what? I'm talking to the Burn of Peppermint later and that is going to be my boost." And so I am feeling the energetic boost just sharing this virtual space with you both. I already feel my heart rate going down. I feel more at ease because I needed this. So I feel great. Thank you for that, Chase. I want to start out by saying that I want to have a conversation about how we change the conversation around how we talk with and about trans people. Last season on this podcast, Chase and I had a conversation where we delved very deeply into the very specific right wing propaganda. We listened to clips. We discussed. And I left that podcast retraumatized. I don't know if I told you this, Chase. I went and cried after you left. I cried for like 20 minutes. And I was like, "No one's going to hear this. The people who need to hear it aren't. This is -- I just retraumatized myself for no reason. And I don't want today's podcast to be that way. I often watch the news and watch stories, watch hearings, clips from hearings, and just feel defeated and victimized and traumatized. And I don't want us to leave here today with that feeling. I want us to leave here, empowered, acknowledging the attempts of legislative genocide that's happening against our community. Be truthful about that. And I want to come away feeling empowered and not like victimized and exhausted from this. I want this to be invigorating for us and for our community. And I want to try to model a way to have this conversation on our terms and not theirs. All this fucked up shit is happening. But like we must not lose our hope, our sense of like ourselves. And I think to this lesson, I'll say it, I'll let you guys come in. I think that like what happens when I watch these hearings, when I watch this propaganda, is that all of my own -- things I've internalized about myself as a trans person come up again. That like we are raised in the same society that like treats us and sees us as less than as somehow fraudulent. And then we see these stories and see this legislation and it like brings up all that stuff again. And so we have to like talk about our trauma, acknowledge it and not be allowed to be taken back into that traumatizing space. We have to be able to be present with like the beauty of who we are, with the humanity of who we are. And again, not see ourselves through their lens and their terms, but on our terms. Do you feel me? Yes. 100%. Speaking from my own perspective, that balance of needing to and being able to experience a sense of joy in living just my truth and my life and in my authenticity as a trans woman, as a black trans woman, as a person of many identities, intersectional existence, that occurred to me through performing in drag. When I was doing my show and I knew that people wanted to hear a remix and do a dance move and all these things, which is why they came to the gay bar to see my show. But then I also, it was really important for me to advocate on behalf of our community with whatever issues were going on at the time I was really heavily involved in AIDS and HIV education and prevention. And so I would do sort of activations at my show. And you know, I thought to myself, is this really my place to do this? I'm not some like professional advocate or anything, but I know that I come from a long line of people in our community that we live fabulously every single day while we are performing every day activism. And so I think having that balance, like you said, is really important. I guess the key is to like you said, leave at the end of the day with a sense of joy and knowing that we can withstand anything that we will eventually overcome without sounding too cliche. Yeah, Chase, and if for you, you are quite literally in the fight, you're fighting these bills in court every single day. This is like your whole life. And I can only imagine how overwhelming it is at this point, about 300 pieces of anti-trans legislation have been introduced in state legislatures all over the country. This is the most that we've ever seen. Is that correct? Chase, can you just give us a rundown of where we are legislatively? Yeah, so it's so bad. I almost don't even know where to begin and so much of my life is now consumed with both fighting the bills legislatively, preparing to litigate in court. But I think perhaps the most challenging part is sort of talking to people about the limits on what we can do in those spaces. We simply are not beating them legislatively. We're losing in so many of the bills are passing so separate and apart from the 300 number, which is staggering and a sign of just how gratuitous it has all become more concerning is the fact that this is quite literally the number one priority for Republican led legislatures across the country hearings are being had day one bills are being passed within a week. We are in a situation and it's truly horrifying and I have to say as a relatively cynical person even I didn't think it would get this bad so quickly where we could leave 2023 legislative sessions with 15 states banning gender affirming care for adolescents and some of those quite frankly could be banning them for adults. That is where we're at and then we are preparing to litigate but we are litigating in stacked courts where I simply have to tell people that we will likely not win. So what that means is going back to your original point is we are just gonna have to find the joy in the process in our existence I'm not looking to the government to give me my joy I'm not looking to the government to validate my existence I find that within myself and in community that's why when I woke up this morning and I was like Already I was in a bad mood then there was the defense of J.K. Rowling piece in the New York Times I was like is this the onion number two and then I was like, you know what? I'm gonna talk to Lover and I'm pop be kind rewind This morning there was a defense of J.K. Rowling and I don't like to say her name, but like let's we'll say her name today There's a defense of J.K. Rowling the New York Times this morning like as of this recording you mean and the heels of yesterday Yeah, two days ago. Oh, let's just let me take you all on a journey a 24 hour journey Which is yesterday you have two letters that go to the New York Times One is from contributors to the New York Times speaking about the very significant flaws of the coverage of trans people in the New York Times Which by the way I've been writing about since 2016. Yeah, number two There is a letter that's led by glad with sign-on signatories from organizations critiquing the New York Times for the incredibly biased coverage of trans people the New York Times issues The most defensive response that's like basically a slap in the face to trans people and Combines the two letters that that basically says you are advocates. We're real journalists We are proud of our coverage. We have a huge amount of sensitivity to trans people by the way This is from their communications person who like used to work for the CIA or something which is very on brand and not surprising I kid you not we wake up this morning and Pamela Paul has written an op-ed that is titled In defense of J.K. Rowling that is just the most transphobic piece you've ever seen and I saw the image and I thought it was the onion because it was too ridiculous to be believed to be true so we have Stays trying to criminalize us for going to the bathroom. Stay spanning our health care We have courts doing what they're doing and then we have miss Pamela Paul and J.K. Rowling Situating themselves as the victims and by the way and some of me this point on Twitter not a single billionaire needs defending period full stop So that is where we're at not very positive But I'm here with you all and I feel good. I was like, you know what this is what I mean Well, we're here Where we are is that it feels like anti-trans sentiment has gone quite mainstream and I think about what's happened in Great Britain with the anti-trans movement there and I fear That might be happening here So in the face of all of that I think it's important to push back against the times it's important to push back against All of these things but I think it's like how do we then? For us change the conversation that is empowering for us That is instructive for people in who might be allies to Reclaim this space because I think like they've done such a good job of Manufacturing consent and like having the conversation on their terms. How do we take that back? I have contended that first of all none of this has ever been about the children They've been able to use children as you know as Trojan horse to get all this legislation passed But it's never been about children and I think Oklahoma and all these other states where they just want a band under for me care for everybody Indicates that so like I feel like whenever we like have conversations about children We are conceding their points when we say it's upper debate how young is too young when it's upper debate Then we're having the conversation on their terms ultimately. It's none of their business. It's no one's business whether someone Adult or child is seeking gender-affirming care of any kind. What do you guys think? Yeah I agree with you. I mean it is it's almost mind-blowing how they've succeeded Especially considering that they have the points that they're making when someone who's at least in the community and somewhat educated and experienced Realizes that these points are just many of them are ridiculous and obviously false It's dizzying them talking about you know kids and then talking about drag queens and then talking about all these different things that are Obviously all aimed at the trans community and eliminating our rights and public spaces and all types of spaces On one hand my fear is that if we don't say no actually drag queens aren't you know sexually assaulting children at book greetings If we don't say that then it's almost like Arguing their point is conceiting it but then if you don't say they're able to manipulate and dominate that space and this conversation in this realm This forum the drag queen conversation forum or the children getting surgeries for them Which none of these things are happening in any reality But they're able to like create this venue and then bring us into it to talk about it Meanwhile what they're really doing in the legislative sessions is passing all of this discriminatory policy Because we're not really that connected and coordinated as much as they are and so what I think we need to do We start the day with living in our joy and then we end the day with living our joy but in the middle of the day we need to get all of the recipes trans ticked talkers and Grammy award-winning transgender people who are making history to get on board with the conversation It's not enough to be like yay you have 10 million followers But let's be like yay. Let's use this to talk about what they're really really doing to us These people are passing laws and policies that would make it Really difficult for the average person to exist in their transness and so we really need to get these people Talking about this and snap into reality. It's not just about their own personal journey I think though everyone's not qualified like sometimes it's like Just because you're a public figuring your trans. Does it mean you're gonna have a certain depth and I don't want to be Adletist about this But like everyone is not necessarily qualified to have these conversations and so like calling on every Public figure who's trans to like you know say something when they really maybe don't have the depth Then it's I think it's problematic and I think a lot of especially young trans people sometimes just want to live their lives And like just be themselves without the burden of like the weight of being trans right the weight of the discrimination the weight of People sort of assumptions and things that they want to put on us and so I get that and I want to honor that So I I hear you and it's like what conservatives have done very well what terse have done very well is getting everybody on the same page with the language I don't know if there's a memo that goes out There's an email they get on board with a quickness and This week when um think her name was dr. Gwendolyn Hurtay her testimony in Arkansas when the republican legislator asked her about her genitalia A doctor as she was testifying. I wish that that she had been like This is really dehumanizing and that this is what allows these bills to be passed that you don't see us as human beings Serving of respect when Matt was testifying in Tennessee when when they use language like chemical castration and mutilation that that is objectifying and dehumanizing so there's all of this very specific language and Ways in which they have talked about as that that that identifies us reduces us to body parts and procedures to pain It's in the most horrible sort of retrograde ways that you can imagine and then now they're taking away our rights There is a correlation between those things So like to frame it in a way where we're like this is a A coordinated effort right in the whole media Project from both terfs and apparently the new york times and you know right the right wing sort of Ecosystem is to dehumanize us that leads directly to These anti trans bills and this legislative assault This is a good time to take a little break. We'll be right back though All right, we're back Chase you are engaged on a daily basis in finding language to combat this legislation and these narratives Is there a way that we could be having these conversations in a different way that focus on our humanity? And don't lean into the language in the terms that are being set by anti-transforces Yeah, so I think two main things I think first I just go back to the conversation you had with Katie Kurek in 2014 Like on some level it's a little bit disheartening that we're still There right that was nine years ago and the same thing the way in which our bodies are being positioned in the conversation is Not progressing and and I think we continue to see the ways in which our bodies are Never really held with grace and respect and dignity. You know, there was the legislators in Arkansas, but I just came in I testified in Tennessee I was testifying about the law about litigation about my experiences litigating at the Supreme Court But I talked about also being trans and at the end of my testimony Which was maybe I was up there for maybe six minutes the chair of the committee said thank you for telling us about your condition And I was like that's what you got out of this like the second you just close your transness people are just seeing your body and sexualizing you or Trying to understand you through the lens of a deeply dehumanizing frame and one of the main reasons is because our allies have been shown up The center left the progressives have failed us so tremendously Then the second thing I'll say is sort of how we shift what do we do? I think we need to de-exceptionalize the attacks on trans people. And that is to say, this is exactly what happened in the Anita Bryant attacks on gay people. This is exactly what happened in the abortion context. And in fact, the human beings doing it are the same. The same legislator, for example, in Idaho that introduced the bill and just now that would make taking a minor out of the state to get an abortion, a form of trafficking, was the same person who introduced the anti-transports bill. Unfortunately, the cis women got on board with her rhetoric around trans girls and sports, while she was plotting their own destruction to take away their rights in the context of abortion and reproductive autonomy. So until we understand that none of this is exceptional and is part of a very large global project, that it's not about trans people. On the one hand, it is it's about our bodies being deeply, deeply dehumanized. And that's allowing this rhetoric to be pushed forward and state legislatures. But the end game is bigger than us. >> Mm-hm. The connection, I think it was so important. This is why we need intersectionality. I think this is why Ron DeSantis does not want intersectionality taught in Florida. Because we need an intersectional lens to talk about this and the divide and conquer strategy. It's so, I mean, understanding the connection between anti-symmetism, anti-trans legislation, attack some bodily autonomy for people who can get pregnant, racism, all of these things are deeply, deeply connected, right? When we see black folks who are anti-trans, or when we see women who are anti-trans, it's like the same people who want to take away trans rights, want to take away your rights as well as a woman, as a person of color. It's the same folks. So it's this divide and conquer thing that we really have to like have an understanding of. I wonder where a class analysis could be positioned in this in some way as well. Because I think that like, there are a lot of what I see in left politics is like, there's either race reductionist or class reductionist. A lot of class reductionist on the left who feel like and understand that trans issues are a distraction. So don't even want to go there, right? So I see a lot of that on the left, I wonder if you guys agree. But I think that like when we have leftist who want to kind of have it be about class and don't understand or want to acknowledge the ways in which race, gender, abortion rights, reproductive rights, and trans folks, and LGBTQ+ folks become ways in which working class people become divided. The intersectional piece is missed and then we don't have the holistic perspective and conversation. Yes, completely. I think that that all ties together with what Chase said about our allies not stepping up. And this conversation does need to happen and we need to certainly more education needs to happen for our allies and even within the community, hopefully getting people on board. But I think that that conversation is taking place on the internet, taking place on TikTok right now. Unfortunately, the people who identify on the left as progressive think that because they're able to celebrate a trans person on this TV show or that TV show, then the war is over and that the work as an ally is done. All I know is I saw somebody on a TV show last night and this one girl has billions and billions of followers and she's getting this award and she's being cast on this. So they got it. I think that's where the allies are. So they think that visibility because trans people are more visible that the fight is one. And so we need to like say that this trans visibility, we're experiencing backlash against that visibility, right? There's a intense organized backlash against all this trans visibility that we're seeing that's unprecedented, that there is a legislative backlash against that happening right now. So it's not enough that trans people on TV and winning a war and have millions of followers. They're using that. Some of the folks who are younger and not engaged or don't seem to be as connected to this conversation that we're having this very serious conversation. I think they also think because I'm visible we won. So there's no more work to be done. I'm young and I'm out there and just living my life is good. You mentioned the Katie Kirk interview, which I think definitely changed the way that journalism at least for a time period covered trans bodies and trans existence because of you and Carmen's experience on the Katie Kirk show. We were able to move beyond listening our surgeries. But now here we are on TikTok and all these other things, which transgender people just listing their surgeries, 10 millions followers. And that's it. They're not talking about anything else. They're just talking about our reveal and our allies are certainly thinking it's okay. We're giving them permission to talk about our bodies because we're not talking about anything else. Only a few of us who are not elevated to those same platforms. And so that's why I think it's very important since the conversation is happening on the internet. It's not happening on television. Nobody is tuning into C-SPAN. It's happening on your Instagram account today. And those people who are the most followed, I think has taken this. Yeah. It's deep because I think it's really different when a trans person offers up without prompting with their surgical journey, their medical transition journey, their genital status. If they want to do that, I think that's really different than a journalist or reporter, a politician asking us about that. I think that information can be valuable for other trans people. I do feel like if you're not trans and you're engaging in how someone is transitioned medically and it feels like spectacle, it feels like I don't know what you're getting out of that for other trans people. I get it. But I'm remiss to police how other trans folks want to represent themselves. I don't know police people's hustles. Greg, because there's a hustle involved in this. There's a capitalism right to speaking of intersectionality. There's capitalism involved in this too. And you are, this is how this person's making money. So it gets really tricky, right? But how do we have a critical relationship to that? How do we say that it's one thing for a trans person to document their transition online for themselves, but it's quite another for someone who's not trans to bring it up. When we've made it the conversation, it's like how do we participate in it? Well, but I think it's really complicated. We have to to your point understand the overlay. There's like the capitalism of it. There's all of the history of policing trans bodies and overly sexualizing us. So at the end of the day, our hustles historically have often been in spaces of sexualization because that's how we are seen no matter what. Every time I go in to talk about law, I'm still seeing that way. So again, we're pushed in these directions where whatever we do to try to exist in the world, people are thinking about our genitals. Once you start thinking about genitals, you're starting to be sexualized. That's just how it goes. So I think the overlay is our hustles end up being in the lens of consumption around bodies and sex. That is something that is not necessarily like we have agency. I want to honor our agency and their constraints that are imposed upon us because of these systems of violence and oppression, many of which are deeply rooted in historical white supremacy and other forms of violence and colonialism. So there's that piece of it. And I think it's really important as we gear up for a presidential election because we will be told over and over again that talking about trans people and caring about trans people is a distraction of from what people actually quote unquote care about. And keep in mind, the people introducing trans people into the conversation are the right. Please leave us alone. Thank you. In the next presidential election. We're positive in this exact way because it's a gateway to this structural takeover of legislatures of control of material goods. And so I think if we get sucked into though what is or is not a distraction, it's all connected. Nothing is a distraction unless we let ourselves be distracted. Absolutely. Because ultimately it's a best civil rights. It's ultimately like for every trans person who's like, I don't want to think about politics. If you live live in Arkansas, Tennessee, you might wake up and like need to go get your hormones and you can't like you may need to go to the doctor and you get your therapist and you can't. I mean, like we're talking about like the material realities of people's lives around being able to access care that is being jeopardized right now. DeSantis and Florida has directed Medicaid to not cover anything trans related, right? So this is like all the trans people unmedicated in the state of Florida. None of their care can be covered anymore. I would have been screwed, right? This is really what we're talking about. So if we can kind of just make it real like can you talk chase two and note peppermint, you're aware this should their families who are like figuring out how to flee states that have these laws that criminalize parents who support their trans kids. Can we? I don't know either one of you want to speak to that. Yeah, I mean, I'm in the situation now where we're not going to be able to sue over every law. That's not going to be the pathway for a lot of people, but in places where we are planning litigation, a lot of the families that we're talking to are like, no, we're not going to litigate. We're going to leave. And that is an awful reality. Nobody should have to displace their life to get health care for themselves or their children. But to the point about soon people in Arkansas or Texas or Tennessee are going to wake up and not be able to get their hormones, we need to also have a real wake up call here. Because if we have a Republican president in 2024 and the Senate flips, nobody's getting their hormones and nobody's getting abortion. John Trump in his recent speech that we need to ban gender or firm and care for everybody. This is what he's running on, right? And we're seeing it happen on the state level and it, I need estrogen for the rest of my life. And we have a presidential candidate who could win. again saying that we need to ban on a national level gender affirming care for everybody. And I think one of the things that's really important is that what is gender affirming care? Chase really talked about that, saw him do a really wonderful speech and interview about that. That cis people get received gender affirming care too. And in that context, gender affirming care for me is now that I, regardless of how someone who's made a agree or disagree with my body, I have breasts. It's important for me to have breast care and examine myself. And if I find a lump or something and I go to have some type of procedure or something with my doctor, that's also gender affirming care as a trans woman. And so what is gender affirming care? Because that spills beyond just getting hormones. And yeah, therapy, that spills beyond just surgical things, which a lot of people are really limited in their idea of thinking that that's what it is. To me, gender affirming care is any type of healthcare that we receive. This is why we have to move away from the surgery narrative because that still becomes a thing that people focus on and that's all they can think about. And our existence is about more than that. Having our gender affirmed can just be about like having a healthcare professional affirm our pronouns. Having like a teacher, you know, affirm our pronouns. That's gender affirming care, right? To acknowledge that we exist in the genders that we identify as. And they're trying to take that away, right? Like there's all sorts of bills across the country that are trying to allow. And in some cases require teachers to use the wrong pronouns for students. And I think that there is a way where people just aren't pausing to grasp what this actually means. And I was talking to a colleague who's also trans who was talking about how at the end of the day, like sometimes it's that one teacher who saw you in one way who got you through high school. And we're trying to take those pathways away. We're taking away sports. We're taking away the coaches who might mentor people. We're taking away the teachers who might care for you with your parents. Don't even if your parents do. Like I've been saying this a lot too as a parent. Parental rights doesn't mean having everyone tell you everything about your kid. I want my child to have outlets to explore themselves and not fear that I'm going to be told. I know they know that they're loved, but sometimes you don't want to talk to your parents. That's healthy. And I don't want schools just closing everything that my child says. And the same way I want my child's therapist doing that. This is a not a healthy way to support child and adolescent development to mandate that everything be reported to parents when exploration is a beautiful part of adolescence. And we need those outlets and the government is cutting them off. And to go back over and to your point about us as trans adults who are just imagining what is a future look like without our health care. Says people are the number one consumers of gender affirming health care full stop period. It's just that trans people's gender affirming health care gets banned. But I was sitting in the bathroom the other day and I just sort of I'm deeply compartmentalized doing this work. And I was just sort of looking at myself and trying to sort of come into my body and thinking, what would it mean to take all of the things away? I wouldn't be able to do any of the things that I do without the care that I've received. And I want the people who love me in one way or another to recognize that. Like this is who we are. I would not be alive if I didn't go to Dr. Rish's office 1998 from my first hormone shot in the beginning, my medical transition. I would not be alive. I would have killed myself because I couldn't live alive anymore. I couldn't live in a way that wasn't consistent with who I was anymore. I wouldn't I wouldn't be here. And I think that at the end of the day, this is the project. It is genocide. It is an attempted genocide. We'll be right back. Without further ado, everything that is being broadcast in this legislation is that we do not want trans people to exist. We want to erase them. I'm not comfortable. Whatever for whatever reason, they don't want us to exist anymore. And they're doing everything they can in a really coordinated way to make us not exist. And so in the face of that, what do we do? What do you guys do? You know, when you need to just feel good and affirmed and like just feel your joy. What is bringing you joy right now? I think one of the things that is at least provides me a little bit of solace in the face of all of this development that's been happening. But I would like to think that the hearts and minds that have been changed enough to see us enough to share space with us and include us. I hope that that's going to be everlasting. But you know, like just living every day in my life and having the people around me that I love, like people that are your support circle of earn and being able to create music or you know, speak to people who follow me and resonate with my story or some of the things that I've viewed as personal accomplishments, you know, like I was able to perform on Broadway, which is might seem like something that's very elite. Yes, but I went to school and paid a lot of money for a degree in musical theater performance way before I ever thought there'd be a reality that a trans person would ever be able to be in Broadway because there weren't any roles written for trans people. My professors told me so. And so being able to fulfill that for myself and then being able to see the people at the stage door who were touched and resonated by those things, those types of things really do bring me joy. And they can happen even at the moment where some terrible governor is signing some terrible bill into law. And that's where allies are so crucially important. The ones who are going to give us jobs, the ones who are going to hire us, the ones who are going to stand up for us and fight for us. It becomes crucially important. You wouldn't have been on Broadway if it weren't for a trans ally. Chase. For me, it's two things. One is that I just, I similarly, I'm like, I'm just going to have fun at the end of the day. Like I'm going to find ways to decompress like whether it's peppermint and I going to die in her food and just, you know, talking shit or whatever it is that we do. And I'm like, I will travel all over the city to fight to go have a meal and sit and just be be how we want to be. And I do think for me being in space with trans people is essential. I need that. And I want to say another point about this, which is deeply troubling is they'll use our solidarity with and love for each other as evidence that we're like a contagion. And it's like, no, we just love each other. The policing that happens. It's like, oh, there must be sex workers because they're standing together. It's like, they tried to diminish our ability to connect with each other, but it's like, no, never. That'll always be such a source of joy and comfort for me. I will never not in these moments just congregate with trans people because I think the insight that we have, the self-awareness that we have and the fortitude that we have is just I prefer it. And the other reality too is that, you know, part of the narrative is that we're miserable. And so you better believe that I am going to show up. I am funny. I am fun. And I'm going to bring that energy like it's disarming to people because they have this idea of trans people like we're walking around like all just sad all the time, which would be a healthy reaction to the world we're living in, but we're also really fun. Recently I was in LA and there was an episode of Quantum Leap that was directed by Chakina and Ridden I believe by Chakina as well that focused on a trans story. And there was a bar in LA where they were had a screening of it that was filled with trans people. And it just, it had been a minute since I was just in a room with trans folks watching an episode of television, of network television that focused on a trans story. And I got my full entire life. It was everything. It was like so it just filled me up being surrounded by my people. And it was just so empowering and beautiful. And I've put part of what makes me who I am. It's this experience. It's also being black. It's also being an artist. It's also being from the South. It's like so many different things. And so yeah, we're not all sad all the time. We've had moments, right? We've all had moments. And we're going to have moments again, but that's what it means to be human. Yeah, we're hilarious. So can we talk about some concrete strategies that our allies can take away today? People who really are well-intentioned and want to help and want to be a part of this, what can they take away concretely that they can do to help us in this in the fight for our civil rights? I think there's two things that people can do. I think number one, most people are engaged in some way in social media, which is where this conversation is taking place that we've talked about. And so I do think it's important just like we were encouraging our allies to do during 2020 and the conversations that we were having during BLM to fill your timeline with queer content creators and people who are getting straight from the source, not just subjects, but also the creators and the individuals who do have platforms and putting out content, seek them out so you can get more of this conversation and more of a sense of who these people are. And the second thing that I think people can do is whatever issues are happening in your very life that are important to you, let's put an intersectional lens on that. Let's see if you're getting fired from your job, let's find resources and sources that talk about how a black person would deal with the same situation or how a trans person who's a vision descent would deal with this sort of thing. And so that you can bring those groups closer into the issues that you care about in your life. I think that's two things that people can do like today. Yeah, just I mean I try to have this conversation a lot with people and and I'm. I think one thing is that people can feel really overwhelmed by the volume of things coming at them and the bigness of what it feels like. And so I like to divide it into parts. One is sort of the daily life piece. And this is one of the reasons why, and we talked about this so much anti-trans legislation is able to move is because we've been able to allow for the demonization of trans people to occur on every single level. So part of the activation that needs to happen is people disrupting that demonization on every level at your kitchen table. And you're at the school where your kids go to school. When you're in line at the grocery store, this is permeating the ethers so much that people just gratuitously will say, like, well, I don't know about those trans kids in sports. And I don't know about kids making these medical decisions. It will come up. So be an agent of disruption. So that is number one, change the way in which we're talking about. Number two, and this is echoes also a peppermint said is we have to engage on every level of government. This is about school boards. This is about DA elections. This is about state and local government. This is about Congress and the president is about all of it. And so wherever you feel empowered, take action there. Pay attention to what's happening in your community. There are 300 anti trans bills pending right now. That's happening in the overwhelming majority of states, including states that are considered progressive. So get involved, get engaged. And you can do that as well by donating to trans led organizations. And I talk about trans justice funding project because a lot of people don't know a trans led organization. You can donate to trans justice funding project and they will invest in the trans led organizations around the country. And that does make a difference. So there's the way in which we can just have these discursive and sort of social engagement changes, political changes, and then material distribution changes where you're investing in trans leadership. And I think it's important for organizations like trans justice funding project. They're funding organizations that are helping to get resources on the ground to trans folks and their families who need it, who are relocating or do need access in various ways. So that is a really tangible, important thing for people to do. So as we kind of conclude this discussion, right? Any final thoughts? My final thought is this that we've been having a lot of higher conversations. We're looking into a very hard future in terms of the legal and policy landscape. But to Pebramins Point, the people who love us, the changes that we've made, that isn't going away. And so as we move forward into this time, we are going to have to just show the fuck up for each other. And that means in spaces where we can decompress or we can care for each other. And that means really finding pathways of solidarity that are meaningful and full. And like, I am ready to throw down for everyone. Our freedom is bound up together. And I believe that so fully and completely in this next period of time, this next election cycle is going to be brutal. And so that means finding those spaces to love on each other, to scheme together, to resist the narratives about us and also really try to help move more people into a space of really seeing us in our fullness because we need people to go out and marshal in that disruption of the very insidious narrative about our lives and our bodies. Peppamins? I'd like to spend more time trying to get people out of the silos that were in the activism space so that we can have a more intersectional view and then, of course, fight because it is going to be divide and conquer, as you said. And there's no time like right before a presidential election to get people politically involved. And as Chase said, there's so many things happening. There's so many opportunities to sort of reflect on how bad things can be. But going up into the next year or two before 2024, it also is an opportunity to get people on board and want to have these conversations. And I'm hopeful that with the smaller portion of the very small portion of trans people who are out there having these conversations, I'm very hopeful that we can get not only our allies on board, but also getting them to see that if they spend a few minutes or a certain amount of time on this transgender piece, it will eventually spill over into the feminism piece. And it'll eventually spill over into the race piece and it'll spill over into the class piece because they are also deeply connected. I'm encouraged personally by that in addition to going to the diner with y'all and having some food. No. For me, it's a few things. I'm thinking about when these conversations are being had that we need to bring on more trans people. It's really interesting because I've been in this game for a minute. I remember back in the day when people would talk about trans issues and I would go on CNN or I would go on MSNBC and they would be like, we need to have a trans person talk about this. Now people feel very comfortable having conversations about trans issues without a trans person in sight. It blows my mind. And I don't think it's about just any old trans person. I think it is about having trans people who have a depth of knowledge. It does feel elitist, but a trans person who's informed and has a sense of the politics in the community and a historical perspective, etc. So I think like I would love to just invite the media to listen to trans people more to invite more trans people on have these conversations with us and not just about us. I think to being aware of what happens in state legislators and state elections, local elections, school boards, a lot of what's happening is happening with school boards with book banning and the relationship between books being banned on critical rates theory. You know, I want to like to say in his name, Mr. Chris Faruso, who came up with putting critical race theory is like the catch all he literally said will make anything has to do with race and racial equality, political race theory and make it like the boogeyman. He's the same person who's like, now we're going to do this with trans issues. It's a project that he's engaged in that like the right wing is engaged in. It's happening at school boards, it's happening on a local level. So we have to be mindful of that. And that again, it's all connected. It really is all connected. So it's like rights can be taken away just because you have your rights now. Does not mean you're going to have your rights tomorrow. So we really are all in this together. And I think the people who are most sort of anti trans are the loudest on the internet and it gets clicks and it gets views. But I think when you talk to average Americans, they're not like that pressed about trans stuff, right? I think it's like politicians, pundits and a very small group of people on the internet. So if like if we can find ways to have conversations with people who might lean in a different political direction and it's hard and not demonize those people, the representatives, the pundits, yeah, I think we can say things about them. But the people, I think the people can be reached if we can get to them. I think a huge part of it is the conversation. It can't be acceptable anymore to talk about things that are really done of our business. If you are not trans, if you're not the parent of a trans person or a medical professional, it's none of your business. And the line I think needs to be the government should not be involved in the healthcare decisions of anybody. Period point blank. It's not up for I've seen like a lot of well-meaning people. The age of when people should start this, what do I wish? No, not by politicians. Medical professionals, yes, medical professionals have made a lot of decisions and done a lot of research about that care. Let's leave it to them and let's not have the healthcare of trans people up for debate. When we make it up for public debate, we're debating the existence of trans people. So what I believe the talking point should be is that it's none of your business. I like to end every podcast with the question and we've been talking about this the whole time and the question is what else is true? What are the things that get us through even when things are rough and hard and they are right now for trans people? What are the things that get you through? And we've been talking about this. But maybe there's something different that you haven't said. I have a minute for you today. What else is true? I've been able to work on some very artistically and creatively fulfilling projects and things that make me feel great but then are also connected to some of these issues that we're talking about. And I just feel so wonderful to have been included and I'm hopeful that I can do my part to help keep a door open and bring everybody else through it. And so that's what's true is that it's not just us sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think as Chase said that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. It's that every single time when I read the paper every morning, New York Times putting out some other story attacking me. That's what's wrong. That's what's true. Chase, darling, for you today, what else is true? Well, I mean, to me, this is it. Things can be however demoralizing. There will always be for me and I feel so grateful for this. A moment that reminds me how happy and lucky I feel to be alive. And that is a blessing that I take with me and it might be just cuddling my cat or cuddling my kid or convening with you to what a gift. And I am very, very, very grateful to be here. And that is true for me every single day. I just am really committed to curating spaces of joy in my life and I'm 40 now and I feel like never did I ever imagine that this type of future for myself. Hmm. Oh, I'll join in. What else is true for me today? It's love. I'm so happy. I'm lucky enough to be romantically deeply in love in a way that I've only dreamed about. And I love you too. And I have friends who I love with all my heart and all my soul and that love is healing and transformative. I think that everybody out there who's using trans people was clickbait if you could just get some love in your life. You know, justice is what love was like in public. If we could just permeate that, I really believe in that. What else is true for me is love, honey, it's love. (upbeat music) Thank you so much, you two. We were all over the place. I hope that everyone listening will have an awareness of what's going on, but maybe leave with some strategies about how we can kind of address and attack this. And again, I want to remind trans people that we've always found a way to get a hormone. We've always found a way to get a surgery, honey. We've found a way to the trans, that's just honey. They cannot keep a girl or a boy or not, but they cannot keep us away from our bones, honey. And our procedure is honey where there's a will, there's always been a way. Okay, can I get an amen up in her? Amen, honey, now let the music play. (laughing) (upbeat music) Love feels like the thing to me that is the most true right now. And when I am in the company of Chase in Peppermint, I feel that love when I'm in the company of my community. I feel that love and is such a blessing. In the face of the horrific, the catastrophic, and these in so many ways of catastrophic times for trans people, we have each other, we have community. We have people who love us. And if you don't have that community yet, we're out here, we're waiting for you. We're waiting for you, so come and find us. The internet is a great tool to find that community. We can get through this. We've gone through difficult times before, look to our ancestors and our transistors for guidance. They are here, they are with us always. That beautiful Maya Angelou quote, "I come as one, but I stand as 10,000." The connection to an energy that is bigger than us, to a space that is bigger than us. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation with Chase in Peppermint today. They represent for me the connection to that history, to that present, to that thing that is deep and true, that transcends all of the misinformation and propaganda and hatred towards our community. Find that community, they're out there and they are waiting for you. And they need you just as much as you need them. This episode was recorded back in February of 2023. There were about 330 anti-trans bills and process then. It is now early July and that number has grown to over 550 bills in 49 states. So far, 83 have passed and 113 have been defeated. You can also track what's happening at transledislation.com. And as always, see our show notes for more information. (upbeat music) - Thank you for listening to the Leverand Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Leverand Cox and on Facebook at Leverand Cox for real. Until next time. Stay in the love. The Leverand Cox Show is a production of Shondulan audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondulan audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. - This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.