Recap | How Artists Rebuild, Find Their Identity + Build the Right Team

- I literally thought that it was the end for me. - Right. - And thank God, they dropped me so that I didn't get shoved. - More and more and more and more and more. The work is all in the artist's hands, and the artist has to get themselves from one to five, and the label can get you to five to 10. - That is a very different person you're looking at. - And I think without this journey that they've been on, there wouldn't have been an opportunity for them to develop themselves into who they truly are. - Working with an emerging artist is 20,000 times harder. - They weren't in a scarcity mindset where they were like, I need an artist or I need a manager, and if I don't go in now, like, I'm gonna lose opportunity. - This version of myself that got signed, I was young, I was figuring myself out. - This actually wasn't even who I was. - I ripped my skirt 'cause I asked you five. - Hey, that's a good problem to have. - We like kids on stage. - Facts today. - Facts today. - Facts today. ♪ Again and again and again again ♪ ♪ I am still sick ♪ - Hello. Welcome to Unfamous, the podcast where we talk about the art of collaboration. I'm Justin Tranter, I write songs and it's fierce. This is Morgan Stewart, my co-creator. Who is a genius and a lesbian. And we are doing these little mini episodes where we kind of do our favorite highlights from episodes of the past. - Yeah. - And this episode was so awesome and so cool because it is our most viewed episode. And what brings me so much joy about that is that is with Valencia Grace and Kyle Stewart, Morgan's brother, who is a manager. He manages, you know, is on the management team for Durand Durand and a bunch of awesome people. But Valencia Grace is a new artist that he is helping build from the ground up. And what made me so excited that this was our most viewed episode is that it's clear that people have such a curiosity about how the fuck you start a career in music business specifically because I'm a songwriter. So lots of people are coming here for the mysteries of the music business. But in any sort of creative industry, starting a career is so hard. And Valencia had some crazy viral moments a couple years ago and then you can't plan virality. So it slowed down. So she got dropped from her record deal. And so to see that just a story about someone who is not a household name yet that is just awesome and fighting the good fight, to see that that did so well made me really proud of us. - Yeah, absolutely. And I love their dynamic because they do have an actual friendship. Kyle is like truly a fan of Valencia's work, which is super important. - For a manager to be an actual fan. - Especially when you're trying to build an artist while they're trying to figure out what their creative identity is, what they're like hunting in on their sound. And so yeah, this first clip really talks about how Kyle as a manager is working to expand Valencia's vision. - Yeah, I mean, we met for like a period of a few months before we made it official. - Oh, that's smart. - No, that was amazing. I was like something that I really appreciated about them was because I had gone through like some teams before. It was very important to me not to rush it. And they just completely gave me grace to date. - Super and super in relationship. - Yeah, but it was last summer that we started talking about it. And she came with a set list of what it was built. - A list of songs, rather. - Yeah. - And she just kind of gave it to me and was just like, what do you think? And I said, well, just let me listen through the whole thing and just give me a second. - Yeah. - And. - He went, I have the set list. Here's the order. - She let me tweak it so hardcore. And I just said, I think this is what you should do. But like, take this, do whatever you want with it. And then you just kind of like immediately were like. Yeah. - It was Kyle. So I like, I mean, I'm such a believer of allowing space for the people that I work with and collaborate with. Because like, you're really good at your job. I'm gonna do my job. And I'll let you do yours. And we can, you know, like lift each other up that way. So I kind of was like, here's the songs that I envision me playing. - Yeah. - And then he came up with the whole concept of it being like different acts. - Oh cool. - And that then inspired me so awkward I could go on. Like even about like, I'm thinking about album stuff or even future albums like projects. Like even him telling me or asking me like, what do you want your mic to look like? I didn't even know that I could like decorate my mic. - She is one of those people that what else is she gonna do in this world besides be a pop star? - No, it's life or death. - It's life or death. And to have, you know, the manager is the trickiest thing for a musician, artists, whatever you want to call it. Because management is normally label, right? It's like, okay, you start as somebody's assistant and then you're a coordinator and you grow inside of the label and you learn the system. Now Kyle, your brother does work for a very experienced long time manager and is growing through knowledge and mentorship and blah, blah. - Yeah. - A lot of managers in this world are just like, oh, I'm a manager now. And it is the trickiest fucking, everything about the music business is the Wild West and is creeping an odd for the most part. Managers are normally the oddest and weirdest and least trustworthy of all of it because it's just, you just decide, I'm a manager today. - Yeah. - And Kyle's doing it the right way, coming up through a company and blah, blah. But there is many people out there who just saw someone online and went, oh, I'm going to try to make money off of them. I'm a manager now. - Yeah. And by the way, Wendy Laster is his boss from biggest entertainment and she is somebody who, like she's a woman who has been managing one of the biggest bands ever, Duran Duran, like came up through some really tough decades. Like, she's brilliant, she is really tough, but she also still has this, like, poise and the softness and, I mean, he's learning a lot. Also Kyle would never work for a man. (laughing) So she's like perfect for him. But, yeah, I think it is really interesting also because, like, for a manager for an artist like this, like, Valencia is a creative who likes creative input from other people. She's very conceptual, very creative. - It just was really surprised to me. - Right, because someone who looks like that to go on a podcast, you would assume it wants no input. - No, she's from anyone else. - She's very collaborative, very collaborative, really cares about what other people think. Even the way she is with her fans, like, it's very inclusive, like, Valencia's creating a world and she's inviting everyone into it, but still has discernment. Like, I've worked, I work with both of them. I've worked on music videos with Valencia and there have been times where the director has deferred to me, you know, for an answer to a question. And she was like, "Oh, don't you think you should be asking me that?" And I was like, "Yes, bitch, speak up." Like, I love it. So there is, like, a level of discernment and intelligence while also being, like, hyper-collaborative with people, which, I think, is very exciting. But also, not all managers are creative and it's just, like, figuring out, like, if you're an artist looking for a manager, or if you're a manager looking for an artist, it's, like, figuring out, like, you need to know what you want out of the other to really understand, like, is this going to be a good match? And I think that's why it's so cool that they weren't in a scarcity mindset where they were like, "I need an artist or I need a manager." And if I don't go in now, like, I'm gonna lose opportunity, like, thank God they took the time to make sure they were a match and, like, they're really evolving and developing something great together, because of that. - Yeah. - Our next clip is, actually, goes into why emerging artists are harder to manage than established artists. There isn't a specific sort of sheet of your roles and responsibilities for management. You're wearing so many hats. And, you know, because Doran has been around for, like, four decades, over four decades now, in terms of the creative, I, I, they're already established creatively, so I didn't really have much input there at all, but there was a moment on her tour in DC. We played at this venue called Songbird, which is this really cute venue. And that show was kind of a hot estimate. - Everybody was amazing. I, like, bent down one too many times. I ripped my skirt because I asked too far. - Hey, that's a good problem. We like kids on stage my accident I like trying to rip her skirt off her cuz it's hanging on my throat I can't get it off and like oh no, it was it was put you come on to put me with my guitar because you know I was born with you know I was very lucky with my jeans and have been given this lovely head of hair However, putting on a guitar strap. Yes, so I have Kyle help me and I said okay if you come on stage you always have to like give me a little kiss before you go and And then there was one in DC when we both accidentally looked at the right time and we kissed on stage and everyone went A big difference of managing Yeah, I just think this is really interesting because of course like Managing any type of artists is gonna be really tough, but like especially with an emerging artist There are all these things you're trying to figure out you're also trying to State their case to people who don't even know who the fuck they are I've never heard the name never heard a song. Yeah, you should care, but then also it's like There probably isn't money. So like you're you're very close emotionally Physically personally like you're crammed in a van together going on tour This type of shit is going down the manager is also now like this seems just in the stylus like You know during that mishap on stage and then they're also like hilariously in a playful way embarrassing each other You know with the kiss on stage and people are making noises and yeah, I mean, it's not easy. It This has nothing to do with management, but it reminds me of a story My I used to be in a band to stay person weapons and we were playing a show in Oh my god, some really small oh Montgomery, Alabama How was that? Didn't have been there I Was in full makeup six inch heels and I wore my outfit that night was a priest's collar And it's like a little like dicky. It's like a priest dicky. I don't know if anyone's ever seen one But it's like so it's like the the thing that you think of like the black with the little white sticky out But then there was like a dicky. Yeah, open back because they put a shirt over it But no, honey. I was just serving open back and it was really thin. I was it was pussy and black tights and Stripper boots like six inch heels, but like boots that were like lime green that I like splattered with purple paint love And there was these people in the front row Not because they wanted they liked the band because they were harassing me and they kept Just screaming through the entire set like that Put me blah blah blah blah blah blah all these things and I finally just like stopped the band and I said if you if you Keep talking. I'm gonna put this heel through your eye Mm-hmm, and they didn't believe me and they kept talking they kept talking and I decided before I blinded them I'll just assault them So I literally just like put the mic close to their face and smacked one of them as hard as possible and the entire audience of course started applauding and I I said I may look like a pussy, but I fight like a cunt and then the entire place erupted and It was one of the most glorious moments of my entire career even though The entire place erupting I think maximum capacity at this venue was like a hundred people. Oh my god So you dumb topped the Bible belt in a priest dickie and still let only high Boots that amazing. Oh god. Yeah, that is the fun. That's how you learn how to survive Executives Fuck yes, our next clip has to do with that. I Mean yeah, it's dealing with executives and getting dropped. Oh, there you go. And getting free. Yeah. I remember like brainstorming Ways of how I could call like the president of the label to like convince him That it would be worth keeping me on like I was not okay. I literally thought that It was the end for me and I mean maybe that's dramatic, but I just I wasn't happy obviously because I was you know, I was losing Who was going to pay for my shit? Yeah, I'm like damn I'm gonna be like real poor after this And then I literally like thank God they dropped me so that I Didn't get shelved they like respected me enough as an artist let me free because they very well could have been like okay But let's just place a bet on Valencia and let's keep them in the label and then it's like You can't release anything you can't do anything. So I'm very happy But at the time it was absolutely terrifying, but the good news was was that I had lawyers that were able to argue um some of money that would that that was because if you're You're signing an artist. I was 17 when I was signed and so the whole like purpose of giving an advance is so that you quit your coffee job We're a job at like Tesco's. So they hire you. Yeah, so they give you an advance so that you you quit your jobs And then when they drop you Yes, you're an artist, but like come on, you know you'd like have no job And you have no income right and um also depending on where you are in your career And I was able to argue with some of money being like I just like you need to let me go with something And so it was that money that I took myself to New York and then Stopped working with my management. What a little fucking genius genius. I think I said this in the episode I've never heard of someone like getting like a Fucking severance They're dropped from a label. I mean, it's like really impressive that them and their team figure that out It's like really really really impressive It is such an important lesson of Everyone in the music business who's trying to be in the business thinks a record deal is The is is the golden ticket is is a lottery ticket is is a winning lottery ticket More and more and more and more and more the work is all in the artist's hands and the artist has to get themselves From one to five and the label can get you to five to ten and That's daunting and it's exhausting, but it's also so freeing Because really it's like okay, no, this is up to me, you know, I'm I'm deeply involved in a couple new Up-and-coming artists careers and it's just like the labels. They're on are so excited about them and so passionate But it's like are you gonna get up every day And figure out a new way to post about yourself and a new way to sell yourself to the internet because if the label does it the fans fucking know Yeah, it smells like bullshit and it doesn't travel it gets no Views the difference between when you know the artist just picked up their fucking phone and did something versus There was a whole team paid to make a tick-tock It is like you can see night and day in the views Absolutely, and you know if you go back and listen to Valencia's music from when they were on a label or like Watch the music videos the music is great. It is um, but that is a very different Person you're looking at and I think without This journey that they've been on there wouldn't have been an opportunity for them to develop themselves into Who they truly are as a non-binary person as this type of like visual representation who they are as an artist now Um, I mean, I don't know. I you know Maybe the label would have been open to it, but also it's like well That's not what they invested in and you're not big enough to just suddenly make this jarring change Completely so it's like, you know now there's this just new Era of Valencia that's like highly conceptual world that they're building and it's you know it That needed to happen. So if you're dropped if you get that label deal in your dropped It doesn't mean the end of your career. It's just the beginning of the chapter of artists who Found themselves creatively after getting dropped and then became superstars is Shocking like most of them Katie Perry Chappellrone lady Gaga That the list go is much longer than that. Yeah, it's It's endless because there's something about like Okay, this version of myself that got signed. I was young. I was figuring myself out This actually wasn't even who I was and that's why it wasn't working That's why it wasn't connecting and then you get dropped and it's terrifying, but then it goes. Okay, fuck it I'm on my own now, you know, like a song I wrote with Chappell when she was dropped. It's called my kinkas karma And her going to make that video for my kinkas karma It you can see it's her figuring out like this explosion of creativity of like, oh, right, fuck it. This is who I am when I go and make a video for free with my friends. - Yeah. - This is what I do for free with my friends. Oh, this is who I am. - Yeah. So the moral of this clip is get a label, let them drop you, get severance, and then go in your own creative journey. Get a sugar daddy, let him die, and then take the money and eat, pray love. - You know what I mean? I just like, you know, it's a crime against humanity that Anna Nicole Smith never had a pop career. Next clip. - Next clip. - No, she did do a music video. My heart belongs to daddy. - Oh, yeah, she did. - And she's gots in it. - Well, you know what? We should do a whole episode just on Anna Nicole Smith. - Anna Nicole Smith. - Yeah. - And about just like media domination. - Yeah, what's her lesbian assistant? Let's get her on. Okay, and the next clip is about artistic identity and what inspires you and what makes you unique and different? - I love Shrek the musical. - Did you play Shrek? - No. - 'Cause she said you played all the male roles. - I played Fagan. - Wait, is that his name? No, no, wait, wait, that's in Oliver. Lord Farquad. - I was like, there's a character named (beep) - Oh, what'd you call him? - This podcast is over. - No, see, I was, I was Fagan who was the male victim. - I was Lord Farquad, I was on my knees. (laughing) - God, how old were you playing Lord? What's his name? - Farquad? - Farquad. - What'd you call me? - Oh my God. I was under the age 11. - Oh my God. - Yeah, it's just like. - Does he have the one with like the weird face? - Yes, the podcast. - Yeah, he's like, love. - See what a present surprise. He's like, you know, walks on his knees. - So while you were playing the Lord, you were like, that's it. I'm gonna make music to the day I can die. - It was actually like, okay, so maybe this isn't, this is just, I'm just really, really inspired by track the musical. There's the version, like the original version that I've like the Broadway, like the first show. It's on Netflix, I think, or at least it's on YouTube. And I love it because it's a story about someone who feels different and they don't have any friends. - Yeah. - And they meet like other freaks. And that was me. I was eating my lunch at school for a period of time with my, like in the bathroom, with my feet up. - Hiding. - Hiding, yeah, I was fucking embarrassing. - No, that's fabulous. I think anyone who had friends, like before they were 16, is not cool. (laughing) I mean, that's just a fact. - Yeah, and I think it's like, you know, we're talking about like, things that you love in childhood. And like, this is a silly conversation, but it goes into something like deeper. Like, you know, they're an emotional blueprint of just like, they connected with the fact that, you know, there's a character who was isolated, felt different. And it's like really informed how they approach their creativity and tap into their own internal world. And like, there's pride in it. - Yeah. - Well, I also think too, like, when I say, if you had friends before 16 years, no way you're cool now, what I actually was like, if you had friends like in normal life. - Right. - If you had friends, 'cause you were doing to track the musical, you're cool now. If you had friends because you were like, you know, in debate club, in third grade, you're cool now. Like, I think any of us who found had to find friends in weird little passions. Like, all of my, when I finally had friends, it was because I was doing a musical, you know? Like, I think, I think that that's the fucking coolest part about art is that we are all the outcasts and the losers and the geeks when we're young. And then we all end up becoming the rulers of the world. - Oh, yeah, I mean-- - Well, I mean, the actual presidents were probably popular in school, but that's why presidents suck. I mean, the artists, the art that we all worship is made by people who were not popular. - Yeah, I mean, like, look at the golden age of New York in the 80s, like just the gaggle of like freaks and artists who came together and built something that we still talk about to this day. And I love that, you know, Valencia just really honors what they truly love and you see how they're building their niche, you know, fan base because it's just like, they're truly connecting over the things that they share. - Right, Valencia's deep love of being a theater geek as the kid, now she's like a goth high fashion theater geek, but she's still a fucking theater geek. - Oh, yeah, I love it. - On to our last clip, which is about how, you know, managers should really be obsessed with the artists they represent and that virality is not a business plan. - What I would say is to the managers that if you are not 1,000 million-percent passionate about the artist, do give them the grace to go and find someone who is because then you are, unfortunately going to waste each other's time. And you need to, what I've learned is that the only time that it really starts to work is when the people around you and who you put as your team are like, as invested in it as you are. And you have to think, or I at least I think about Valencia Grace not anymore being just me, but like we are all Valencia Grace. - Yeah. - And it's so it's like if you as a manager are ready to take on the role of like being an artist or like helping this artist out. And I didn't honestly know that you, that you could have like such talented management. - Wow. - So I think you just trust your intuition. But again, it's the manager's job to not commit if they're not 100% passionate. - I really love that point a lot because especially in our current world where everything moves so fucking fast and a manager might go after an artist, a writer or producer because one thing is going viral. But we all know that unfortunately, virality is not a business plan. So if you're not obsessed with that artist, writer, producer, whatever they do, if when that virality falls off, if you aren't obsessed with the art that they're making, you're not going to do your job well. Because you were just showing up because something was exciting. But now that something might not be exciting in four months, and if you aren't obsessed with us, get the fuck away. - Absolutely. - Another thing that makes me, this makes me think of as somebody who was the artist, who was the performer, the singer, the blah blah blah. And now I'm on the other side of the business. I tell my manager, friends, and my record label executive friends all the time. Oh, a month for you is a year for the artist. - Yeah. - Because you have other clients, you have other things you're thinking about. All that artist is thinking about is when the fuck is my next single dropping? When is my next tour starting? When am I shooting my next video? And they're just sitting there. Even if they have a day job, and they're going and they're driving Uber blah blah, while they're driving that fucking Uber, all they are thinking about is when is my next release date? While the manager and the label have 10,000 other release dates that they're planning for other people. - Yeah. - And it is not only does the manager and the label and all these people that sign up to help and artist dreams come true. Not only do they have to be a super fan, they have to remember that all the artist has is their art. They aren't working on seven other albums like you are. - Right. - And that you have to be telling an artist to just wait. - Oh my God. - Unless you have a perfect fucking reason why their single got pushed back six weeks. - Right. - And there might be a good reason. And that's fine. But you better explain that reason like fucking Shakespeare. Or like you can't wear the creative, pure artists, whatever your job is in art, all we have is our art. You know, as a songwriter, I'm writing for so many different people. I can be so excited about Salinas next single. - Yeah. - It gets pushed back six months 'cause she's going to film. Well, I have other songs. - Yeah. - It is what it is. The artist only has that release. - Yeah. And yeah, it's like I just think when things do need to be pushed or the person you represent like needs to be patient, like that person is going to be, because they are so hyper focused on their career and the relationship you have with them. They're going to be able to tell if you care or not. - Yep. - And I mean, it's just why would you want to invest your time and money into somebody who eventually is going to realize this isn't going to work because you don't give a shit in the way I need you to. It's a waste of each other's time. And I think too, it's so common in so many, you know, in my world as a hitmaker, lots of us start publishing companies and sign up and coming writers. And my roster, my publishing company is very small because I, if I'm going to sign you, the reason you're signing to me and not just directly to a major publisher is because you are going to write songs with me. I'm going to bring you in not just book sessions for you without me, which I will do too, but also I'm going to write with you, to mentor you, to give you direct access. And I, because I've been on the other side, yeah, where you're signed to someone and you're not given access and you're not given attention. I take it so serious that I have to tell my team all the time, like, no, we can't sign that person. We can't sign this person. I don't have enough time to give them. They might be the next biggest hitmaker, but in my current calendar, I don't have time to write with them. And a lot of business people think I'm being crazy and I need to go and get more and more and I'm like, no, my worst nightmare is signing someone and then like, not writing with them. I love that because you're like really giving them the opportunity to show off their skills, but also hone in and develop that. And I mean, as someone who's one of the biggest hitmakers in the industry, I mean, that's the golden fucking ticket right there. And it's a two-way street, you know, if a writer doesn't put in their part, I can't drive myself crazy. But I will drive myself crazy for you. If you can, if you're driving yourself crazy for you as well. Yes, love that passion. We can go crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go fucking crazy. Okay. Anyways, that's it. Love it. I love Valencia. I love Kyle. And I love that they were both so honest about how fucking hard it is to break a new artist. But they were honest about how hard it is, but they're still hopeful. They're still positive. And that's the only way you survive in any entertainment. Fields. Yeah. Yeah. There. No, that it's awful. But stay positive. Yeah. It's horrible. Good luck. 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