Recap: Caleb Hearon + Caitie Delaney on TV Writing, Ego, and Bad Notes

- Endless summer escapes start here. Travel the worlds of Netflix IRL. Inspired by fan favorites like Stranger Things and Squid Game. Brave the upside down. Face off with the front man. Play leveled up arcade games. Shop exclusive merch. And enjoy themed food and drinks. Beat the heat. Play, eat, and shop on repeat at Netflix House at Galleria Dallas. Bring your crew and save. Get your tickets today at netflix.com/house. - Hello? - Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. - The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. - We are digital, we are downloadable, we are streamable. - The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. - Pull yourself together, we have work to do. - Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. - That's all. - Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13. - But trying to find collaborators that you're not intimidated by is such a loser's move. You need to find a collaborator that you're a little, the tiniest bit intimidated to pitch to because they're so good at what they do. - I would say to a young person, what is your goal? Is your goal to just be a part of something? Or is your goal to be a part of it in the way that you know is perfect for you? - Caleb was one of the first people that I took notes with who just knew a little bit better what you wanted and you would be a little firmer with executives from the beginning and say like, "No, I don't think we want to do that." But like, "Thanks for the note." - So sometimes you're getting a note just to get a note. And listen, sometimes those positions in the corporate world are very hard earned and there are a lot of really talented people in there. Sometimes somebody just knows someone and you might have as much experience as they do in that job. So I think it really comes down to discernment. - When you get outside of that and you have some financial security, I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, when you get further into your career, it's like, did I just get older and more mature? Or did I just make enough money to be like, " you." - Then I was like, "Oh my God." - Caleb's like, "We can't speak to them that way." - That's an executive at Netflix Incorporated. - Oh my goddess. This is a very exciting, exciting situation happening here because I am sitting with my co-creator of this podcast. You've heard her voice off the screen many a times. Ladies, gentlemen, everyone between Morgan Stewart, come on, you can do better than that. Morgan Stewart. - Pathetic, do better. - On this episode of Unfamous, little cutie recap episode, we are going to go over our time with Caleb Herron and Katie Delaney. And if you're new to this podcast, we talk about the art of collaboration. And what was really cool about this episode is I learned so much from how Caleb sets creative boundaries with his team, with his crew, with his team. With his co-writers, I learned so much about how to handle the balance of like making art for a huge corporation while still trying to remain an artist and a bunch of other awesome shit. And I also laughed my ass off quite a bit because obviously Katie and Caleb are professional, funny people. So it was a great time. - Yeah, and for some more context on the episode, if you're new to it, Caleb Herron is, you know, viral. He's a viral comedian on the internet. He is co-writers with Katie Delaney on shows that he has created and they've worked on together. She is known for her work on shows like "Big Mouth" and "Rick and Morty." - I was about to say, what's that show that straight men love, "Rick and Morty," yeah. - She also did something with Tim Allen. I don't know how she gets in with like all these guys. Ugh, so sorry, but you know what? No, that room needs to be like lit up with more women. - She gets more in to those very bro-y rooms, yeah. - Yeah, it's cool that she's getting in there, but also what I love too is like, and we'll see it on some of the clips, how Caleb, while he's learning so much about becoming a stronger writer, she's also learning how to speak up. And that just because somebody in a professional setting might have a higher title than her. She doesn't always just assume that they're always right. Let's start with a clip where Caleb talks about needing to turn his Twitter comedy into a 30-minute episode series and why he knew Katie would be the perfect collaborator. - Amazing. - What made Katie such a great collaborator is I think there's such a great balance to strike between like, you actually shouldn't go for the person, I didn't want a writer from like "Modern Family" or "Seinfeld" or someone who's been doing it for decades. Like, I didn't want like an old veteran. I wanted someone who's very good at what they do, who has done more than me, that to this day is a much better TV writer than I am and always will be. Genuinely, I'm like, I wanted Katie because I'm like, Katie is smart. Katie is smart and funny. I'm already a fan of hers. But also, Katie isn't some grizzled old vet who's just throwing this on her plate to like make another buck. - Another thing, yeah. - It's like, no, she'll give a fuck. She's young, she's hungry like I am. And so that thing you're talking about, there's a balance to strike, I think, between like getting someone who can teach you something, who has skills that you don't have, that you admire, but who also, like not trying to swing so far above your weight class to where it's so, so different. I think there's a really good balance to strike. - Yeah. - To find collaborators that you're not intimidated by is such a loser's move. You should, people do that. They're like, oh, I'll collaborate with this person because they'll like let me walk all over them. - Oh, yes, man. - Yeah, what's the point? Yeah, yeah, it's like, that's a loser move. - I mean, I love this clip because he's not looking for a collaborator just to stroke his ego, which like a surprising amount of people do. They're creatives and they want the attention and just to be told like, yeah, you're great. - In my worlds of pop, songwriting the amount of times that you're like, why are, this person clearly just wants to write this alone. Why are we all here? Either their manager forced them, their label forced them or for whatever reason, they clearly want to do this alone. - Right. - Why did you invite somebody into a collaboration when you don't want to collaborate? - Yeah, it's a waste of time, including that artist's time or that writer's time because, nothing about your work is going to get any better. But what I also love, he had a following. He could have gone for somebody with some, you know, big following, big accolades, whatever, but he'd rather go with somebody who like speaks his language, can make him a better writer. - Yeah. - But then, you know, also has that hunger. He chose that over a big name. And I think that's like, when I heard that I was like, oh, he like actually really fucking cares about making good work. - Yeah. - I think that knowing your weaknesses is the best thing that you can do as a collaborator. - Yeah. - Because if you know, he knows what he's really good at and he knows what she's really good at so that they can like openly balance each other out. And I look for that in every single co-write that I do. I'm always like, well, I know that when it comes to this, this and this, I'm really good. So I need somebody else to be good at the other things. - Yeah. - And I think one thing that's important about that clip too is showing that wanting someone who's better than you means that you want something great. Caleb is just such a fucking star. - Yeah, truly. - Even just like talking about how somebody else is better than him at something. I'm like, God, I just love him. - Yeah, that's great. - Deeply. - Love it. The next clip is actually like one of the clearest conversations we've had on Unfamous about what great collaboration actually requires, which is, no ego. - God, I would say training in improv is the most important collaborative skill I've ever learned because it like took that self-importance out of my work. - Yeah. - And was like, no, the best thing to do is get the funniest idea. And it doesn't matter if it comes from you because by nature, like by virtue of being in the room, it's also yours. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? If Katie has the best joke in the script, but we co-wrote the script, that's our joke. - That's our joke. Like, why would I hold on to my joke just for the sake of it having technically come from me? - Yeah. - That's stupid. It's so stupid, but it's so common, right? I think so many people make that mistake because you just want to prove that you did like the best joke or the best. - Well, you want to win. - You want to win. - Yeah, which is stupid. - Which is stupid because the whole point of collaborating is that you're winning together. - It's collaborative. - No one on the outside knows which part of the song I wrote. - Right. - No one on the outside knows which part of the song somebody else wrote. They just know that they really like the song. No one's there. They're just counting. - Right. - Yeah. - And you should be in service of creation. - Always. - Not in service of your ego or your whatever, like when you're really making the best stuff, it's easier said than done, but when you're really making the best stuff, you're in service of creation and tapping into this like thing that kind of hangs above all of us rather than like, I'm the guy. It's like, you don't need to be the guy. You just need to be in service of creation and it'll go where it's supposed to go. - I find myself only wanting to like remember what I actually did in moments of frustration. Like when I'm like annoyed at the industry as a whole, I'll start venting to people, mainly Jimmy, of like, you know, if I hadn't done this and that song and this and that song, these fucking people wouldn't even have had their fucking blah-dee-da-dee-da-dee-da. And it's a good thing to remember that the only time that I ever want to take ownership of something I've done is when I'm really annoyed. - Right. When you hated the collaboration. - When I hate it. And then normally it's like something about like someone's manager or someone's A&R. It's never about my actual co-writer, you know? It's like something in the business. has like deeply upset me to then I want to like get my my ego flares up because I'm upset okay and then I start wanting to like take like tally of what I did and why everyone should fucking be nicer to me you know what okay so that's actually a really good segue into the next clip this is a really uh interesting clip um from Katie about like learning the difference between respecting other people's expertise and then also trusting your own instincts and knowing what boundaries are so so the way that I sort of approach notes from executives is I'm still very uh reverent to people that I think know better than me and it kind of gets in the way when it's like I'm talking about my own idea and sometimes I'm listening to an executive who like glanced over it quickly and is like giving me notes that they came up with you know half asleep or whatever and um I would always be like yes okay I totally understand what you're saying like yes we'll do that and Caleb was one of the first people that I took notes from and I was like okay I'm going to take notes with who just knew a little bit better what you wanted and you would be a little firmer with executives from the beginning and say like no I don't think we want to do that but like thanks for the note and like the first time I heard you say something like that I was like oh my god we can't speak to them that way that's an executive at Netflix incorporated and I do appreciate the note I'm like glad they give the note right but it's a no but you know you automatically I think know what you want which is a huge strength of yours you always know what you want and I'm a little bit more like uh let me take it away and mull it over and think about it and I've learned to just like accept a note in the moment and then later be like we're not fucking doing that but just uh you know I think there's a balance of having them feel heard and maybe make executives think you're gonna put the like stupid joke that they wrote in and then just not do it they'll forget about it but um I have learned from you to be a little firmer and just like prouder of my own work I learned so much from this episode and and I was I'm doing a bunch of really cool film projects currently but to hear them how they how they handle that and what she was learning from him and him in some ways right because he's from from stand-up comedy from improv from the internet he's like in some ways newer to this sort of super corporate space that he's like well no but this is my script this is what I want to do no and she comes from that she broke in the corporate world she's they're like opposite journeys and so like how they both handle that was very I learned a lot from both of them and how they handle that yeah and I will say having come from a corporate background sometimes those notes are so important to listen to because there are just certain things behind the scenes like on how things are built that like this is needed to get to the next level but also sometimes people are giving notes because they have to show their value and they have to bring that up in uh reviews uh you know because when it comes time to cut budgets to lay people off they need to prove that they did something so sometimes you're getting a note just to get a note and listen sometimes those positions in the corporate world are very hard earned and there are a lot of really talented people in there sometimes somebody just knows someone and you might have as much experience as they do yeah in that job so I think it really comes down to you know how you're going to do it and how you're going to do it and how you're going to discernment hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people so please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things bye like you have to know how to read people as well as like you know just like know how to read the room and see what everyone's doing and why yeah um just really use your discernment to decide like is the note good enough to change what you're working on when I get a note that I know is the they're right I'm so fucking thrilled it's so exciting like oh my god you just made this so much better thank you so much when I get a note that I know is wrong it gets very stressful because then I'm like okay how do I not hurt this person's feelings but not do what they're saying what's really interesting that they bring up which is in our next clip is are you financially stable enough to say no financial security is such a big part of it because when I was first starting out and getting my first writer's jobs I didn't ever want to ruffle anyone's feathers I did it anyway but I didn't I had a bigger fear of like it was an internal fear that I kept to myself my behavior was pretty much the same but the fear and anxiety it caused me at every turn of like oh speaking up in the writer's room like that or oh talking to this talking to this exec about how I truly feel about the script there was that anxiety I would go home at the end of the day and lose sleep over like fuck if I lose this job I don't know how I'm gonna pay my bills right and when you get outside of that and you have some financial security you feel I lose no sleep over being like if they hate me and never want to work with me again that's great because then we both know that we're not in a working situation we don't want to be in you know but you can only act that way if you have financial security yeah so that is such an important I think I don't know sometimes I'm like when you get further into your career it's like did I just get older and more mature or did I just make enough money to be like fuck you fuck you agreed completely but also I think there's another step to it and I think that's a big part of it I think that's a big part of it everyone's different everyone's personality is different of for me I could I am at the place of saying fuck you I don't need your money very lucky to be there very grateful to be there it still doesn't matter for me I'm such like I have such good student disease that I need to be like teacher's pet at all times that it's really hard for me to tell collaborators co-writers co-producers directors A&Rs any it's really hard for me to tell anyone no I don't agree no I don't think that's right no I'm not gonna do that I have a really really hard time how would you tell it like a younger creative to protect their voice while still acknowledging that not everyone has the same freedom to push back and how do you deal with you know maybe somebody's pushing back too much and it's actually like oh you're it's just showing a level of immaturity yeah yeah um I would say what is your goal and so like what I said to myself through the last three days of like deciding whether I was gonna like go along with the project that they flipped the script on me I had to decide like what is my goal here and is my goal just to be a part of this project no matter what okay or is my goal to be a part of the project in the way that I think actually makes sense for me and if they need it that way there's somebody else for the job and even if it ends up being the biggest fucking thing ever I need to prepare myself now that I said no so I think I would say to a young person what is your goal is your goal to just to be a part of something or is your goal to be a part of it in the in the way that you know is perfect for you okay yeah and that's kind of calling back to what Caleb was saying in the earlier clip about like being in the service of the project and not being a part of it and not of creation it's like do you want to go more for something that feeds the ego which isn't always a bad thing but it can obviously get in the way especially of collaboration yeah or is it in service of like the greater purpose yeah of the creative thing that you're partnering on yeah with other people yeah okay so I saved the wildest and most layered clip for last wait it takes like all of the writer's room insight where you'd have to watch the full episode um they talk about house numbers pitch they talk about just like like getting the bad ideas out just like breaking down like what it's like how a writer's room works essentially and what their experience has been you all put it into action when Caleb uh uh starts talking about something pretty dark and then you three start riffing in real time I know what this is gonna be and it becomes one of the funniest and up moments of this episode I know what this is gonna be I went to college and I was like studying pre-law and I was studying socio-political communication no way yeah I thought I was gonna be a lawyer and then I got so depressed in college and suicidal a shout out and shout out sophomore year who else um that girl that girl girl something yeah I woke up one day sophomore year and I was like being alive has been fun what if it was over quick pitch hey I'm really good at pitching this isn't the answer this isn't it but like killing ourselves yeah um and then I was quickly like it might be it um and your friend's like no listen you gotta say it get it out get the idea yeah yeah get the bad idea thank God you were in a writer's room at the time yeah yeah I took it to the room I was like I'm thinking about killing myself you guys they're all also suicidal not this yeah yeah it's not killing myself but like something like that um I get driving really fast without my seatbelt on or something you know house numbers pitch house numbers pitch house numbers I don't have to be is the idea that we're trying to get to. - Something in the suicidal arc. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your job as my collaborator is to elevate my suicidal thoughts. We workshop my suicide note. No, it's heavy on top. It's too detail heavy. Let's more pro. Yeah. It's really sad. But I. The jokes are too soft. Yeah. But no, I was so depressed. And of course, all my friends were theater kids. Like that's who I gravitated towards. And I had a bunch of friends that did improv. And I was like, that seems like the most humiliating thing you could possibly do to yourself. But I am going to kill myself soon. So I have nothing to lose. Wow. And so I was like, well, if I'm already going to kill myself, I may as well do improv on the way out. And so. Reach the depths of hell. Is that what everyone thinks before they take an improv class? Most. Yeah. And then, you know. And so I did. Yeah. I started doing improv. And then I had this will to live that I was like, oh, my God, this is so much fun. I should do this forever. He's just so fucking funny. Well, all three of you were like, you all decided to. Yes. And his story about suicide. Like that. Well, he opened it up. With the shout out. Yeah. Shout out. Another great collaboration trick. If you make a joke inside of your story, inside of your pitch, it lets everybody feel like they can join the situation. And I mean, it was just like a perfect example of like everything that they talked about, every skill that they've honed together or separately, like throughout their careers. Like in that, like watching that from behind the camera, I was just like, I was silently just like crying. I don't think I could even see through the tears that I had. What's also so funny is that even though he's telling a story about a very dark time and we made a joke out of it and then started fake pitching the whole thing. I know bullshit every single session, minimum three times go. This is definitely not it. But what about this lyric? And just start talking. And more than half the time, whatever I just said is not it is it. But and it's not even. It's not even like a trick that I'm doing just to like, oh, I'm going to like make this seem less egotistical and blah, blah, blah. No, it's actually like I don't have the idea fully formed yet. So I'm going to like present it as an idea of like, this is not it. But here's the lyric. And then normally it just ends up being the gist of just that lyric. Yeah, you have to get it out. It takes the pressure off of it. Yeah. And it's just like you can't be afraid of it being a bad idea or like judgment in the room. I mean, if you're working with people who are going to. Like rip you apart for something that's not a perfect idea. Yeah. Like that's crazy. But yeah, like you have to be able to throw ideas out in order to actually collaborate. Otherwise, nothing's happening. Well, it takes the pressure off yourself by saying, hey, I don't think this is the right idea, but I'm going to say it to get it flowing. It takes the pressure off yourself to say something that might not be great. And it also takes the pressure off of all of your collaborators, because then if it actually isn't great. They don't. They don't feel bad. True. Saying no or yes anding it and moving on to something better. Whereas if you're just like, this is the, this is it. And it's terrible. Right. Everybody's fucked. He actually did say something really funny earlier in the episode when he was like going more into detail about getting the bad idea. And then everyone collectively landing on the good idea. But then he always knows when a more green writer is in the room. Because even after. They achieve the idea. Then they do that. Wait, I've got it. And he's like, no, we've moved on. Yeah. Yeah. And one of my other favorite things that I learned from Caleb in this episode was that how when he sends scripts to his team or to his friends, he tells them what he's looking for. Yeah. Getting really specific, really granular. And it's like, don't touch this, touch this. Or just tell me, did I make you laugh? Did you like it? Right. That's that's like. Unbelievable advice that I learned from him of like of sharing your work with your team or with your friends or with your collaborators. It's like a really great way to approach it, to manage their expectations and your expectations. I think that was my favorite thing I learned. Yeah. You know, it also takes the pressure off the friend that you're sending it to, because especially out here in L.A., it's like, oh, another friend is going to send me another fucking script that I have to read. Another fucking song. Get specific. What do you want? Yeah. Yeah. That was our. That was our. That was our fabulous recap of our episode with Caleb Heron and Katie Delaney. Please go check out the whole episode or any episode. And we will see you next Wednesday. Hello. Hello. Everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second. To rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.