REAL LIFE Salon Ownership with Traviss Kraisoraphong

hairstylist. When does it end? When will you actually start to put yourself first so you can make more money, keep more money, and do it without feeling guilty? I'll tell you when. Right, mother, effing now. Welcome to the Make That Money Podcast with Nina Tulio, where we talk all things pricing, all things profit, and how to build your business with confidence. Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the Make That Money Podcast. I am your host, Nina Tulio, and guess what? A buckle up because I actually have a guest today. You know, I rarely have guests on my podcast. I could count on one hand how many guests I've had on this podcast. Obviously on my podcast with my bestie, no stylist left behind, we often have guests, but this one's a little bit different. And I cannot tell you how excited I am to have my guests. We've known each other for a while. We're from the same state of Pennsylvania, because PA is my home state, for sure. And also not even far from each other because his salon is in Pennsylvania. And I'm actually just excited to talk about leadership and culture in the realest way possible. And look, even if you're not a salon owner, if you're not a commission salon owner, I want you to stay here, because these lessons that you're going to learn and the things that we're going to talk about will impact your business period. So if you're a solo artist, please hang. Maybe you're a solo artist that wants to open up a space, a salon, a commission space. So this is going to be super helpful for you. But when I say I have one of the realists, this is the truth that we are going to have a real raw authentic conversation today. And I'm just inspired by my guest because he is kind and real and authentic and smart and really genuinely cares about the people that he works with. And I have had the honor of watching him grow and thrive over the last few years. So welcome, my friend and my guest Travis Cresorapong. That's right. Welcome, my friend. I got to write all the rehearsals. Nina, let me start by saying I'm so excited to and this means a lot to me right now because this is a little bit of a full circle moment for me, Nina. I reached out to you during COVID. Yeah. And that's when you entered my life. And any salon owner out there will know what a shit storm COVID was for us and how to navigate that. And I was really confused. I was petrified. I didn't know if I was going to have a salon in five months. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm going to reach out to this woman. I'm seeing on Instagram, I need help. And I did. And I'm so thankful that I did. I don't know how many years ago that was, but here I am on your podcast, Nina. Wow. And I will thank you. It's a full circle moment in the way because I went, that was a really low moment for me and probably a lot of salon owners in the world. And you really helped me navigate it. You were the support that I needed. I'm so thankful. So I'm excited. And yes, absolutely. And can you believe that COVID was six years ago? Is it six years? Yeah. In some ways, it feels like a hundred in other ways. It feels like a week. I know. I know. I know. Right. And yeah, I mean, I think it was a scary time for so many people. And I, I feel like we connect with the people that we're supposed to connect with. And I absolutely love working with you and Michelle. Obviously that you're two of the best people I know, honestly, you really genuinely were putting your heart and soul into your business and into your people, of course. So, and I just want to add to your introduction, you were saying that if even if you're not in salon leadership to hang around, and I agree a thousand percent with that because I think the more that we understand one another, whether you're in a role of leadership or as a part of a team of a commissioned salon owner or in the salon suite, I think the more that all of us just understand what is asked of us and what we're all trying to do because I think we're all truly trying to show up for each other, whether we're part of a team or in the leadership team. So I think it's important to hear all the perspectives. Absolutely. Yes. Hang around. Yes. Hang around with us. And in a very grounded perspective, that's what I think an honest grounded perspective for sure. So thank you for sharing that. I think I want to start with the leadership side. And I want to just know a little bit first. Like tell everyone listening, how long you've been in the industry, how long you've had your salon, your salon is called Noel Sigh. Yes. And tell them a little bit about that part of it. And then I want to talk more about your leadership. So I've been in the industry for 32 years. And I've been a commissioned salon owner for 18, almost 19 of those years. And it has been a crazy ride for me. There is no other place I would want to be than in this beautiful hair industry. I think it's just an incredible way to make a living with the most incredible people. And I just keep learning about myself. It's been a challenge. Nina has been there for a lot of what I've gone through with leadership and just navigating building a team and growing a business in the business is so different in 2026 than it was when I entered. So there's a lot that's asked of leadership right now. I love it. It's been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But it's also been the most joyful, the most joy filled. I want to keep going. I'm not tired of it. I feel like each season of this industry is just more and more beautiful the more we learn. So I'm excited about it. And I'm happy to share it today with my lived experience has been so far. Yes. And well, interestingly enough, you know, you said there is a difference between leading. I mean, we're going to go back but even five, six years ago, there was a difference in the need of leadership. Even five, 10, 15, 20s, what a vast difference. And so what I want to know is your salon leadership when you opened 18 years ago, right? Your leadership then and your leadership now. What did it look like and what does it look like now? And we're going to experience the differences. I'm sure once you start telling us. So the Travis of 18 years ago, poor guy, okay. I feel so bad for him. Honestly, if I could go back and give him a couple of paths on the back because he had really good intentions. But Nina, here's the crazy part. And I'm not saying this to be funny. I truly thought I would open a salon with my business partners. We were going to make it a cool space. Play awesome music. Have a wonderful front desk support. And everyone is just going to do beautiful haircuts and it's going to be awesome. I literally thought that. Yeah. It didn't take me long for life to hit me, you know, square across the cheeks. And I started my leadership style as leading by example, which also is it's not exactly an effective way of leadership. It's a component to leadership, but I don't think that can be the only thing. And that's how I was showing up in the beginning. And little did I know how much I had to learn. And I've learned a lot. And I think I would just put it out there for anyone dipping their big toe into leadership roles or looking to open up a team based salon. It is a journey and it starts inside. You have to look so deep inside yourself before you even look into the faces of your team members. And that's the hard work. Yeah. Because we have to sometimes we see things inside ourselves that are weak or might not be good enough. Yeah. Or that need a lot of work or something that we just didn't want to really acknowledge in ourselves that is holding us back from truly serving others. The beautiful part is that it never stops. I'm still learning those things about myself 18 years later. It's the hardest part and it's the most beautiful part. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think now I think I think modern hairdressers and young hairdressers and seasoned hairdressers. I grew up in an age of management in the industry. We were managed and it was I think people now are looking more for mentorship. And they are management. I think I'm showing up less as someone's boss. And I show up every day hopefully as someone's mentor. And it's not about me trying to get them to fit so hardcore into my vision of them. But to help them achieve what they're looking for for themselves within the space that I'm providing within the culture and the team that I'm providing. And I think both can exist. It's hard, but they both can exist. Absolutely. Yes. And to that point, it's 2026. We've already acknowledged that leadership has to be different. What do you think that leadership has to look like in 2026 beyond when it comes to actually retaining stylists? Because this is this is a big challenge. There's two challenges that are big attracting stylists and keeping stylists. And I've been talking about this for years about people first leadership and having a culture that is so solid that people they just want to hang. They want to be there with you because they feel so valued seen and heard. Now listen, we're not meant to keep all the people forever. Like that's not a reality. We have to understand that. But what do you think leadership has to look like? What does that feel like for you in terms of people retaining their stylists? And why do you think it's hard for salon owners to change in their leadership? What is there some reluctancy there? I think in terms of their change in their shifting in their leadership style? I'll start there first. I think that a lot of salon owners or people in positions of leadership. And this is a natural thing for people to do, but they fall back on past experiences and they almost operate out of places of either like PTSD or situations that happened in the past. And I don't think that that's fair to kind of go into new situations and the new generation and the new time of this this era in our industry with all of those kind of negative emotions. You know, all of us have been hurt, all of us have been burned, all of us have had someone walk out on us. You know, there's been all of the things that happened to all of the leaders, but we have to keep, I'm going to use the word empathy. I come from a, I'm a big feelings person. The my leadership, one of my strengths and my weaknesses is I'm very much a feelings person. And I think empathy needs to show up right now leadership, but where I think people are getting it really confused is it doesn't mean that with high levels of empathy that we lower our accountability expectations and standard and standard. I think that they can both live in the same room at the same time. People right now are looking for, you know, there's so much that we hear Nina about work-life balance. I hear that all the time with young people with everybody. And I think I'd like to use the term work-life blend because it's almost never truly a balance. I actually heard that on a Brunei Brown podcast one time she was talking about marriages, how we think of marriages as a 50/50 relationship, but it's actually never at one time a 50/50 relationship. There's always going to be one person giving 70 and one person giving 30 at one time. Then a month later that 30% can go up to 45 for that person and you know, everything's going to change in percentages. And I think that work relationships have a similar kind of, we should have a similar understanding from each other from those times. I've required grace in my leadership role just as my team requires grace from me. So I need to show up with empathy, but yet hold people accountable to their actions. I think that leadership really were mirrors for people. So when we hold up a mirror, we can be respectful. We can help them feel. We can help them achieve all the things that they want to, but we have to show them the truth and the mirror. And I think that that's modern leadership right now. I agree 1 million percent. And I think the empathy side of things is that I feel like since COVID, our industry has gone real heavy in one direction. Too many boundaries, too many I'm not working nights in weekends, too many I don't have to work Saturdays, too many I don't want to take that client because they didn't like their colors. So they weren't unhappy. So I'm just going to cut them off. I'm going to ghost them. I'm not taking this person anymore on that like we went too far. And I agree. I feel like people, clients, stylists, they want to be heard. They want to be seen. They want to be felt. And there is still, you know, that I think high level leadership starts with empathy because you have to understand at the end of the day, this gets me so fired up at the end of the day as a leader and as an owner and as a stylist dealing with clients, we are all human at the end of the day. >> Amen. >> Right. It's when this these cancellation policies and all this shit will, you know, I'm charging this and they didn't show up and like, you have a client, Judy, she's been with you for 20 years. She's never missed a damn appointment. You're going to charge her $50 because she just had a slip up in her mind and forgot the like we have to understand that there is a human side and your team is asking for. They're craving for that empathic side and I love that you pointed out even with empathy, there still has to be accountability and standard. It doesn't mean it's a shit show and everybody gets to just do what they want. But you're leading from a space of kindness, caring compassion and that comes first like we're dealing with humans. So I love that you're bringing this up because on the flip side of this and I've dealt with this too. So I'm really, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts behind this. As leaders, I feel especially in this industry because we work so closely with our team every single day. We're like bumping elbows every day, right? There's a line between being liked and being a great leader. And because I've struggled with this myself in the earlier years of leadership, maybe even until your five or six for real, what is the why behind that? Like why do we want to be liked? You know, we want to be like that we just forego the leadership side, we forego the standard, we forego the accountability. And what tips do you have for an owner who is really like, God, I just, I want to be a yes person and I want to be liked. How do they navigate to move into being a great leader? Because it's not about being perfect. It's just about being a great leader. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, who doesn't want to be liked first of all? I don't know one human being on planet earth that doesn't want to be liked. And I think that desire to be liked has produced a lot of incredible hairdressers. I think my my desire to want to be liked has helped me show up really beautifully behind the chair. It doesn't show up beautifully for me as a leader. I don't think most people in the hair industry get into ownership because they're looking for power. Right. And I just it's hard to switch our hairdresser brains into getting into roles of leadership and helping someone navigate their journey. And sometimes it's going to require no. And I always tell myself to make it easier for myself and for the person receiving an answer. Most knows in the world when we have to offer that to someone. It's not a no forever. A lot of times a no is in this conversation, I'm going to have to tell you no. Let's have more conversations about it. Let's see where it goes from here. What you're asking me today, I can't honor it. But it doesn't mean it's a no forever. Sure. You know, so when we kind of soften these things and we're less black and white about everything and we live, it's hard to be ruled bound and also live in gray zones. But I think it is possible as long as communication is always kept open. Yeah. It's when we stop communicating with one another that I think that there's the biggest breakdown. It's hard. It's hard for hairdressers to to assume a role of leadership with other hairdressers because we're one of them. Yeah. But again, I'll go back to what I was just sharing before I think one of the things that has helped me is I'm not telling someone who they are or what they need to do, but I will be your mirror. Yeah. If you want to work three hours a week, that's a possibility. But you have to live with what happens when you work for three hours a week. Can you pay your bills? If not, that's not a salon problem that's going to be a new problem. Right? I think a lot of times people are asking for things without realizing what comes with it. Yes. That's a part of my job is to help them understand. This industry, the amazing thing about it is it gives you back 100% if not more of every ounce of energy you put into it. But it also doesn't give you 100% of what you don't give it. So people just have to learn what happens with that. You can't expect results of one way of working and live within the rules of another way. Yeah. So I think that's a part of the leadership right now where people are looking for a lot of different a lot more flexibility, a lot more freedom. Sure. I want those things for everybody. Those are awesome things. I want those things for myself. Yes. But I have to wait as to balance it out to understand like how much freedom am I willing to give myself but yet make a certain amount of money. Yet achieve certain things within my career. Show up the way that I want to within my industry. Like those are all things that are given take and they're very interconnected. And that's the conversation I think that we need to have with people in the industry. Yeah. I think you're so right on the communication side of things. Yes. It's what you say but it's also how you say it. And I think being clear, like Brunei Brown, clear as kind, I think that's so important. I think it is being honest but it's also being compassionate in the way that you're having these conversations. And that know, I mean, even thinking of it this way, that know now maybe a yes to something else that's. That's another great way to look at it. Right. You know, so I think it's presenting those things in ways that that stylist can really see and feel like, okay, that makes more sense. I think the why behind everything has to be explained in with Silas. You know, not like you're going to get into the nitty gritty in the details but like, hey, we're going to be switching up our menu. Okay. Well, someone said we're going to be switching up our menu. What does that mean for me as a stylist? How am I going to communicate to my stylist? I mean to my clients, what are they going to say? Are they going to be upset? Instead of then saying, listen, I've decided that the best thing for the business for Arsalan business and for you is to switch up our menu because it's too long. People are getting confused. I feel like you're confused. It's not converting the way that it should. We're getting a lot of questions and DMs on why our menu isn't working and they can't find the services. So I feel like overall, it's going to be the best decision for us and don't worry. I will coach you how to navigate these conversations with your clients. Yes. That's a better way of saying it, right? Because if you say we're changing our menu, people are going to flip shit. Exactly. And so I think the way that you're presenting things and the way that you're eased with leadership, I think is so important for people to hear that you're also learning too. Like you're also human too as a leader. And so I think the expectation of being perfect presents a lot of trouble for us as leaders because it's like we have to know all the answers. We have to know how to do all the things. We have to be the fixer. And that's not it. And I think you know what one other thing I think I've even told you this one. We were were working together, but I used to say to my team all the time, like if I didn't have an answer, I'm not going to bullshit you and say, well, maybe you can did it. No, I would say, you know what? Let me sit on that for a couple of days and I'll get back to you. That was always my line. So if they saw me and they didn't, I didn't have an answer right away. And they saw me kind of looking. They're like, oh, you're going to say, let me sit on that in a couple of days and I'll get back to you. They almost knew that it was coming. And they were like, okay, I know she's going to get back to me in a couple of days and give me the answer. So don't get pressured. I mean, do you agree? Well, like do you feel at the perfection side of it? Ways heavy and there's a lot of pressure to be perfect. I think it weighs heavy and back to how you were asking the question before, I think that that's an outdated way of leadership because I don't really think in their hearts, people are expecting their leaders to have perfection. And I think that relatability is something that's an asset to a leader actually. Yeah, you taught me to just be comfortable with saying, I'm not sure. Let me think about that. Let me get back to you. You know, my earlier self, I would have had to give a quick answer right away. And a lot of times, if I wasn't sure and I gave a quick answer, it's usually not the right one. So another really valuable tool for leadership that I've learned is instead of me having all the answers for somebody, ask the questions, people have the answers in themselves. Amen. They know the answer. They don't need me to tell them that. And most of the times, just with human psychology, if you believe that you came up with it yourself, you're going to believe it much better than if I told you so. So I've learned asking questions is I always start there. That's my starting place. And it's been so effective. It's empowering for the person that you're helping. It's helping them learn how to think through their own thoughts. And you're doing it in real time. It's actually fascinating to be a part of when it's working well and it's it's hitting. Yes. I think that's I think that's a really good tool for anyone out there struggling with leadership or being afraid to give hard answers to their team members. This is the way that you can have them or private at themselves with absolutely with your help. So instead of telling people, you cannot ask too many questions. And the more questions you ask, it will be inevitable that you will arrive where you need to arrive. Yes. And you're creating other leaders. I mean, the part of this is look, you can't put out fires 365 days a year for the rest of your life as an owner. Like you have to write. Right. You have to put you. You have to be able to have create other leaders. Yes. With question based coaching, you're you're offering them to provide their own solutions so they don't have to come to you anymore because they're going to actually have their own answers. I love that. I actually, I always tell people like, listen, whether you want to own a salon one day or not, you are a leader behind your own chair. You are still running your own business. You are your brand like within a bigger space. But like think like a leader. Like I love that Nina because when you help people think like leaders, they have ownership over what's happening to their careers. They have ownership in the decisions that they make as stylists. And to me, I want that for people. I don't want to be the decision maker for people in that sense. I mean, I want I want them to feel that they have that that the power to just control who they are when they show up and they can take their career however they want to go within a commission salon environment. Yeah. You know, I think commission salons. I'm getting off topic for just a second here, but I think commission salons have kind of little bit of a bad rap like lately. I think everyone's all about like be your own boss and entrepreneurship and like I'm not throwing shade at sweets or any other business model. But commission salons have a real valid space in the beauty industry. For sure. I wasn't always an owner. I was once a team member and I always would choose that over and over again for me. Yeah. So I'm just saying that there is a space for that. And I think that you can run your business and be the hairdresser that you want to be within a commission salon environment and within a team setting. I don't think that we have to sacrifice a lot to be a part of a team. And I think that's a part of the conversation that hasn't been brought up enough either. You know, I agree. What you were saying too with everyone drawing so many boundaries now in this modern age and listen, boundaries are great. We need boundaries in every relationship. But if you hyper extend all your boundaries and you become so rigid in how you show up as a hairdresser, be prepared for what that looks like behind the chair. And that's what I feel isn't shown with everyone screaming about boundaries. I want to know what it looks like because do you have two clients in your chair because people are living real lives just as hairdressers need flexibility. That's what leadership is offering them is flexibility. But then they're not offering that back to a guest. And I think that's a strange kind of like they're asking for it, but they're not willing to offer any. Sure. Yes. Listen. And all of these conversations, it's not all or nothing. It's there are gray zones. We can offer grace to all of us to work finds too. I agree. And still make money. And still make money and still serve and still serve and still love our jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. And look, there's a space for everyone. It doesn't have to be sweets against commission commissions against rental, like we're all in this together. It's so dumb. I hate that. It's so antiquated. It just and you know what the other thing that really chaps my ass, honestly. Like we don't have to put down another business model to make our business model shine. Like I'm not into that. They're just that that's just not it for me because I can talk about an amazing commission space and you can talk about your amazing commission salon without having to put down the rental model, the sweet model, the chair rental owner model. Like none of that needs to exist. Just speak on your truth and what you have to offer and how kick as you know of a space you have to create this beautiful growth for your stylist without having to put other people down, you know. Exactly. How about it's amazing that they all exist. Yeah. How about it's amazing that as beauty professionals, we have choices. How about like as a community, we're all better because of all of these things. How about that? You know, like I really believe that like yes. There's no right or wrong for anybody. I know people thriving in every form of business model. And I'm so happy for them. Like I'm, you know, people have to think where they feel good. Do you and do it make you feel happy, you know. So I want to talk about salon culture because I think this is important. Well, yeah, let's talk about let's talk about salon culture. But also I want to wrap this. This is like a twofold leadership. Your toughest moment, toughest challenge, toughest time as a leader in this space as an owner. And on the other side of that, what was the contribution to your culture during that time? And how did you get out of it? You know, your toughest time leadership culture, how did you move through it? How did you navigate it for people who are listening and they're like shit, I can be a better leader. I can create a better culture for my my stylist, like hearing from you, I think maybe going through a tough time in your business, whatever that looks like and how you got through it, I think would be incredibly helpful for people to hear. So if I start crying, I'll be right with you. I will be right with you, my friend. We'll cry together. This one is going to hit deep for me. My toughest moment as a leader in it happened actually last year. So it wasn't at the beginning of my leadership when I knew absolutely nothing. It's when I thought I knew more. I was in a team meeting. I was having the most transparent, vulnerable, open discussion meeting with my entire team that I've ever had in my career. And I'm looking around the faces. And I realized in my heart that half of these people didn't believe in me. That was my toughest leadership moment. And you know, what was the toughest part about Nina? It's not that. It's that it's not their fault. It's that I had to go so deep in myself and really understand how did I it was like, you know, those moments in the movies where it's like it starts going in slow mo and then you can hear their thoughts. I was like, what did I do or not do to get to this moment? I was so sad. I was so afraid for my business. I was feeling all of the scarcity type of emotions. And I only had myself to look at. That was my lowest moment. It makes me feel sad when I think about that person doing a team meeting that day. And seeing those faces looking back at me. Sure. I will start with this. And I believe this deep in my core. I don't know if this is going to be on popular opinion or not, but in leadership. And I want to help all the people that I can. I do believe and I've learned this the very hard way. If someone doesn't see value in you, there is no coaching there is no communicating, there is no hugging that is going to help them see that in you. And that's just a hard truth. It doesn't mean that you might not be able to find a way to work together. But for so many years, I chased the faces that I saw looking back at me trying to prove my value. And there was nothing I could have done that I would have validated myself or gotten that back from them. And again, it goes back to me and you know why? I hired them. So in leadership, it starts from the very big, the journey starts and we've really early in the name of growth. You know, one of my weaknesses and I hopefully, I think one of my strengths is I love to give people chances. Someone gave me a chance one day and I'll never forget it to get into the industry. I love that about our industries that we can give people beautiful chances. We can give second and third chances. But be careful who you're inviting into what you're trying to build and what your dream is because not everyone is going to believe in that. And I think that's the hard truth. The brighter side of that is I ended up with a team that believes in me and themselves more than ever. So communication on the leadership level is I think you're the only tool that will serve you in every single situation. You can graph, you can look at your numbers, you can do coaching, you can do one-on-one, you can stay late, come early. But if you don't have good communication, you will be an ineffective leader. And I think if I had to identify my biggest weakness in my 18 years, I wasn't communicating to people the way that they were asking me to. So I don't want to go dark on that. Thank you. Listen, I'm over here saying, oh, I'm going to cry. I'm the one over here who's crying trying to keep my whole life together. Here's the plus side of that, though. And here's what I've learned. And this has been the most valuable tool. If there's one thing I can tell any leader out there, this is the mistake I made for so many years. Don't want for others what they don't want for themselves. And it sounds so obvious when I say that out loud right now. But when I was in it, it didn't seem obvious at all. Because in my heart, I think everybody wants to make more money. Yeah. In my heart, I think everybody wants to work five days a week with a full book. In my heart, I think everybody wants to keep pushing up their prices and raise their standards. And in my book, everybody wants to never stop growing. In my book, everyone wants to take a class on their day off. That's just simply clearly not the case. Now when I say it out loud, it just sounds so silly. But I think a lot of leadership look at team members that way. They want things for their team member. That the team member doesn't even want for themselves. That's not fair to either person. Sure. That's not fair to your team member. And it's not fair to yourself because you're going to end up hating your job. Yeah. Because you're selling a dream that someone doesn't believe in. Right. Back to communication. When you start asking questions, questions is everything. You're going to learn what really lights that person up. And that's true leadership. Because when you can really tap into what is going to make that person show up for work that day, and love their job, and love you for helping them with it, then you did your job. Yes. Listen, I want to say something because I think this is so important. First of all, thank you so much for your vulnerability in sharing that because I think so many people have been in that space. And they-- where they felt like they weren't enough for they disappointed their team or their team looked at them. And they knew that they just didn't believe in them. And we've been there myself included. And I want everyone to know that it's OK to be in that position as a leader. It happens to all of us. But it doesn't mean that you have to stay there. I think that the way that the things shift is that when you start to look itself, and sometimes we need that eye-opening moment that literally smacks us across the face, where we're like, wait a minute. Maybe there are some shifts and changes that I can make here to make this culture, to make this environment, to make my leadership a little bit different. And you can't make everyone happy, right? The goal here is to allow people to shine and to be themselves and to really pull out their fullest potential, and then be able to coach them on their own goals and dreams. Because we don't need to coach them on our dreams because that's where we lose them. It's not about us and what we want, and how we want to grow our business, and how we want to hit a million dollars and not, well, maybe that's not their goal and dream. Maybe you know what? Maybe they just want to get out of debt and start to put money aside to buy a house in three years. Like that's a different goal. And so I'm so grateful for your transparency and your honesty. When it comes to the culture side of things, do you feel that your salon culture was a contribution to the way that they felt in that moment? Or do you feel like it was leadership and culture? Or do you feel like it was more so your leadership and communication and the things that you mentioned? I think my leadership got me into that problem situation to my low moment because it started with again, with the hiring process. I think in all fairness, I hired people that didn't believe in the company. So there's nowhere to go from there, right? Yeah. That's my problem, that's not theirs. And then from that point on, it was hard for me to have the hard conversations and build that journey out the way that it ended up anyway. So that was my problem. To address the culture part, I think the sunny side of that is that my culture is what got me through because I had the other half of those faces looking at me, believing, wanting all of this to win. And they gave me grace. And that's going back to the perfectionism of a leader. Like I had to ask for grace. Yeah. You know, we all show up and we all show up to do our best, whether we're a leader, whether we're behind the chair, and there's just sometimes when we just have to ask for little grace. And that's, I think why this conversation is so important because it just goes in every direction. It's about communication, it's about supporting. And I think that's for non-leader based positions, I think that's a misunderstanding that leaders don't have weak moments or insecurity or fear or we have all the same feelings. You know, we don't talk about them enough and that's no one else's problem. Right. I don't need it to show up every day in my leadership, but I would hope that people see their leadership as fallible, normal, feeling, failing human beings. Because that's what we all are, right? Even the truth. That's the truth. Yeah, that is the absolute truth. I am-- And the leadership also see that in their team members. Absolutely, yes. There has to, and there's grace on both sides. I am absolutely just, this conversation is so needed. And I am so grateful that I get to have this conversation with you because you are just sharing your truth. And your truth is the truth of so many owners and so many people in leadership. And I know that this is going to inspire them. I know that this is going to make them feel valued, seen, and heard. And I am just-- I'm so thankful that we're able to have this conversation. So thank you for showing up. Of course, I know that you would always show up in your authentic space, but being so vulnerable to and letting people into inviting them in to your space as a leader and into your mind as a leader. I want people to be able to know where they can find you and reach out to because I know the DMs are going to be coming. If you're not following his page, you absolutely need to. So these are important things. So where can people find you? So I'm on Instagram, Travis with 2Ss.noelci, N-O-E-L-S-Y. That's my salon name. We're in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I am passionately working on building a supportive, thoughtful community for hairdressers on my Instagram. I will make myself available to any DM that comes my way. I might not answer it within the 48 hours of being polite, but I will try. I'm not always polite about it, but I do it. I just think that there's-- like you said, Nina, I think this conversation and conversations like these are so important right now in our industry. I think that so many hairdressers are hungry for understanding how they feel and understanding their leadership, vice versa, and the people around them. I think it's an amazing industry, but it's a lot to navigate for people. And I just want to-- before we close, I just want to say, anyone out there, especially in leadership, if you're feeling alone or lonely or afraid or wondering if you actually have what it takes to be the leader that is being asked of you, do you do have it? And I will be there to support you. You can DM me. I'm sure Nina is there to support anyone as well. I think the more we build community and conversation, we just all become stronger in the community of hairdressing benefits because of it. So I'm all about that communication, and I will make myself available to anyone out there that needs a little bit. support. Nina was my support during COVID when I needed it as an owner and I want to, you know, pay forward and be that person for anyone that might be hearing this that feels that they, that they just need someone to talk to. I love that. I love that and I just, I just love you. I just love you as a person, period. I always have always love you so much. And I am, I'm really, this is just the highlight of my day for sure that we get to share this. So. It's so awesome. Thank you for inviting me here, Nina. This is of course crazy. Guys, I'm sitting here talking to like the Naha educator of the year when you're 2026. That's still me. Thank you, but still me, still need it from 2020. You know what I mean? Like we're still rocking it. Still going to grind every day and show up for everyone, right? Like I will. So thank you, my friend. I appreciate you so much. Make sure you follow Travis. Check out his page. It's so inspiring and so honest and so real and I will put his link in the show notes so you can go and check him out there and thank you again, my friend. And thank you to everyone who is joining me on this Make That Money podcast. See you next time. [MUSIC]