Real Estate Marketing Decoded

[Music] Welcome to the Black Box of Media brought to you by Ultimate Edge Communications. I'm your host, Alicia McCall, and this is Episode 7. This is the podcast that lifts the lid on the head and strategies behind high performance media advertising. If you've ever wondered why some campaigns drive incredible results? While others full flat, this is where we break it all down. In each episode, I sit down with marketing experts, media buyers, and brand leaders to uncover the tactics, insights, and case studies that drive real impact. So let's unlock the Black Box of Media and change the way you think about media advertising and marketing. Now, today's episode is really honing in on real estate marketing unlocked. We're going to talk about performance, brand, and the future of attribution. Real estate marketing is high stakes. With long-procher cycles, shifting consumer behaviors and increasing pressure to prove marketing ROI, to stay ahead, CMOs in this space have got to be agile and also strategic. So in today's episode, we are unpacking the key drivers to success in real estate. We're going to discuss the strategies that hard courts have used to make sure that they can drive traffic and lead performance. We're going to look at that balance between brand and performance media and we're also going to look at the structure of media advertising teams, marketing teams, the evolution of attribution models, and then also how you can engage with prospects through long-procher cycles. So there's lots to unpack on today's episode. We're going to make sure that you walk away with a ton of strategies to help you grow your respective business. Now, I'm delighted to introduce Arasdeem Guest for today. We've got the CMO of hard-court international trip Sutton. Now, with a marketing background and a marketing career spanning more than two decades, Trent has worked for a host of global and local Australian brands, including McDonald's Australia, the National Rugby League, the NRL, clubs New South Wales, and more recently, McGrath estate agents. And now currently in his role as chief marketing officer for hard courts international. Here, this is a global company across 11 countries boasting a network of close to a thousand offices and more than 10,000 people. So this man has got his hands full. Trent's career has been working with like-minded individuals to help build brand trust, grow consumer engagement, and ultimately drive sales. He is a busy man and Trent, I am absolutely delighted to have you here on the podcast today. Thank you so much, Alicia, and listeners of Black Box on just pumped to be here and share a little bit about what we do. So excited for the episode. Yeah, fantastic, Trent. Well, I know we've got plenty to cover. I know we've had a few conversations about what you've been digging deep on on your side and obviously maximising our results, which is what this podcast is all about. So we are literally going to dive straight into these questions. So we can get here from you firsthand and get some context and some takeaways of, you know, of how we can all take these insights and grow our businesses respectively. So I'll start here, Trent, over the past 12 months, specifically. What strategies do you think have delivered the best results in terms of increasing traffic and in terms of increasing lead generation? Yeah, look, I mean, I think it has to start for us or it has started with us with a very simple strategy, a digital strategy that gives us, I guess, the grounding to know what it is that we are doing, what we're working towards and where we need to go to get there. And so for us, that's the centerpiece. It's the north star for us as far as how we're able to do those things that you talk about. So you talk about, you know, I guess, outputs of a really solid digital strategy being, you know, website traffic and lead generation. And for a real estate network of our size with the expectations of a franchise group that they hold upon us for the investment that they make, you know, those things are outputs that we need to absolutely be delivering on. But at the heart of it, and you talked about the global reach and the nature of our business, you know, there are complexities to it, but at the heart of it, real estate is really simple. And so for us, nailing the simplicity of a digital strategy is important. And then now the role for me and for the team, and equally for the corporate team with regards to the network is as franchise or is to be the most sought after brand in what is really a crowded marketplace. And so, you know, we need to be the brand of choice and off the back of that crowd outcomes for the network. And so to do that, you know, we break the, you know, if you look at just those things that you spike about. So you talk about lead generation and traffic growth. You know, there's some complexities to it, but at the end of the day too, there are some simple things that if you're getting right that we're focused on, you can absolutely work towards growth in both of those. So if I break it down in a few of the areas, so the foundations for your digital strategy are in many respects, reliant on an optimal S.E.I. performance, or the optimal S.E.O. strategies these days, are there a minimum requirement, right? And so everything from the point of view. So how up the funnel do you in terms of priority? Because obviously, S.E.O. is brilliant just because it's that, you know, we call it free traffic. We know we have to invest in S.E.O. But it's the non-paid traffic piece. How much of a priority do you put on that S.E.O. space, especially in your industry to make sure that you're leading from the front there? Look, we, we are in a high competition market. And so for us, S.E.O. I mean, everything's a priority, which sometimes means nothing's a priority. But if you, at the same time, right, you have to get the fundamentals of S.E.O. right, because pay to play, which is obviously the other component, or another component of marketing that we'll dive into today. There could be some limitations to that. Notwithstanding that, there is an expectation from our network that if they are joining us, they are joining a brand that is giving them the best opportunity to win that free traffic that you speak about. So the architecture, the structure, and the component parts of S.E.O. They need to be on point. These are the questions that we're getting when recruits are talking to us about the potential of joining our courses. So tell me about your S.E.O. strategy. How are you winning more traffic? How are you going to help me with local search marketing? And for us, we need to do both. We need to be a brand that's on the shopping list of page 1 on Search for KeySearch terms at a national level. And we need to be winning those high-intent local searches. We've done our own organic traffic in 12 months. So if you talk about just the value of that traffic for a moment, don't ignore the fact that you don't otherwise have to pay for that if you really wanted to in a market like ours where we're competing with portals through to banks, through to other real estate brands. It's not a strategy that you can retain for the long-term arrow. And that's the challenge, isn't it? I mean, the whole conversation around S.E.O. versus PaytoPlay. PaytoPlay becomes almost instantaneous that you're getting those clicks and those leads coming to the website. Whereas S.E.O. very much is a long game, but we're invested in and we're done correctly with the W3C compliance, you know, the on page and the off page. You're then able to get, you know, that end up, like what you see it, it ends up becoming one of the sort of the stars amongst the strategies to say, okay, this is fundamentally working for us with that doubling of traffic. And that would you say, because I think if we just look at that paytoPlay versus S.E.O. what are some maybe some insights you can give our listeners on what you've had to do to make that work? Because with S.E.O. being a little bit more of a long game, it is often, oh, geez, like it's, do we really need to invest in it now? We've got to deliver these short-term. And I know we're going to get to some more on short-term versus long-term. But is there anything any sort of pearls of wisdom you can give us here on this piece of just around how you balance it and why you, you know, what are the things that you do to prioritise it? So it doesn't get forgotten. And then 12 months later you do get the reward, which is, you know, doubling the organic traffic. Yeah, I think, look, there's lots of things that I could say. So I'll try and give a few key things. One of them is obviously the investment that we're making is it goes well beyond the investment we make in the S.E.O. consultant that we work with. Obviously, the development hours and the time required for developers to actually implement the work that we identify as opportunities. You know, we're talking large sums of money. And so the business needs to be prepared to understand the investment that's required in order to be best in class for that. But, you know, let's face it, we're in a network or an industry of 46,000 real estate offices and shopfronts across the country and about 130,000 people. So if you want to talk about choice, we will be irrelevant. Simply put, if we don't invest in S.E.O. and best practice S.E.O. And so when we talk about sustainable investment, that's where we really see our role as franchise or is to provide sustainable ongoing investment in things that make a difference for our offices and those that join us so that they can really focus on those incremental areas of growth, whether that's S.E.N., whether that's business listings, whether that's search and display, whether that's other things to build their brand within a local environment. And so, you know, we know we go all in when it comes to understanding the value of our website. Because we understand that for us, we need to try and win that customer, try and retain that customer, try and keep them sticky to us so that we are that brand of choice. Because the transactional value, we're not operating in big Macs and Diet Cogs. We're operating in long cycles of high value purchase and sale items, property, life's biggest asset, that you don't trade in often. I think the trade beard is roughly anywhere between seven and nine years. And the cycle of starting to listing, if you take sales, just as an example, could be a problem. anywhere up to 12 months. And so for us, having those foundations right for SEO, the development investment that we make, working with an expert, they do give us an advantage in order to be able to be competitive in a market that's increasingly competitive. - 100, and yeah, your space is especially right to be battling for that, to win that one listing or that one sale is absolutely imperative. So if you talk about, if we go now a little bit more holistic and we look at the challenge that you have with over almost close to 1,000 offices, how and where have been the wins in the last 12 months are being able to allocate this traffic obviously all coming through but allocating those qualified leads to each of those offices across not only in Australia but internationally as well. Can you give us some insight on what's where it particularly well for you there once you've got that traffic to the site, leveraging those either marketing or media advertising strategies to drive that lead generation because as you said before, they are so heavily reliant on those leads coming through because that's the engine room at their business, right? And they're counting on you to deliver that. - Yeah, they are. And look, hey, I like the professor saying that we've got everything right, but at the same time, we're very conscious of, or we operate as a business on curiosity and effectively, I love that because it means the business is further asking the question, could we be better? What can we do differently in order to get better? And so, we talk about the competition that we're in and so if you park that to one side for the moment because there is plenty of it, we need to crack value and an experience on our website that means or cracks a many full easy, seamless experience for a customer because at the end of the day, they've never had more information at their fingertips about real estate. - Absolutely. - And find the, you know, you can get a value in less than three minutes as an approximation of what your property is worth these days from anyone, whether that's the banks, whether that's agent-led websites, whether that's property, bottles, or whether that's us. And so no longer can you hang on to that as being a point of different or a point of value. You need to be doing all things really well, which sounds challenging, but it's the truth because there are, as I've said before, too much choice for someone to lean into. So for us, we look at everything around how we're providing value to the customer, whether that's content marketing, whether that's guides, whether that's webinars, whether that's other things to keep people informed about what's happening. And that's not just what's happening in the marketplace. That's, I guess really exposing some of the things that people may not see, understand, or know when they start and enter this cycle of property listing, for an example, which can be particularly daunting, depending on the circumstances of which you're obviously also entering the market. So we're trying to create as much value as we're in around content. Obviously, we're deeply focused on how we also, unlock and provide value around the minimum standards of things like we've got a digital property appraisal tool, which makes things easy for people to understand what it is and what they're competing in by way of sub-earn market performance, property value and all those sorts of things. And of those trends on just on that, because it's a great point, is that obviously through that process, you're also collecting information as well, right? So you're creating this value for the consumer. But at that point in time from a data strategy, you also collecting that data just to be able to start to build those profiles on that person, completing the appraisal or completing the widget or whatever it might be to start to build. OK, how can we now better engage? How can we now better serve this consumer that's coming through our funnel? Yeah, I would say that we are still at the start of our journey around how we mobilize holistically a network that sells more than 22, 23,000 properties every year at Australia alone. How we mobilize our customers to push them through top to bottom of funnel. And because obviously at the top of the funnel, they're showing some sort of intent. They are displaying signs that there is an interest depending on what side of the fence it is. They might be a buyer, seller, investor or rent out. And so we very much are working towards where it started our journey around how we understand, take that behavior and crack value from that to your point around whether that's as simple as entering them into an identifiable marketing automation segment that targets them and provides them, you know, pushes value back to them through email marketing. Well, goes to, you know, other extents around rate marketing of relevant information back to them through the way in which we go to market from a marketing perspective. We are, but we're not anywhere near where we're going to be. I do think it's a great point though, Trent, because you've just touched on a couple of really key elements there is that the whole when you're coming in with the premise of creating value, right? So we now know that it's more, it's harder than ever before to actually one get people into the funnel, hire costs as well, but then also to keep them in the funnel and keep them on that journey. But I think, you know, especially for a lot of marketers out there, really just tapping back into and you've said it multiple times is how can we create value? How can we deliver value up front at the awareness stage at the consideration stage? So we're actually meeting them where they are in the consumer journey, as opposed to just a random email going out that's like, Hey, you know, these are the tools that we've got. Hang on a second, where are they at right now? What tools might they need? And how can we create value? How can we add value to their life, to their family, to them as a person, to help them on this incredibly challenging journey, which is buying a home, right? Which is the arguably that and is the largest purchase that anyone, most people will make in their lifetime. So that is, that's been super valuable. I just want to now take a slight turn and talk about now, okay, if they're the things that work, what didn't work and how have you refined your approach? And I know you said to me, as well, Trent, you're a Ted Lasso fan now. I am catching up on my, on my Ted Lasso coaching, but I am extraordinarily curious as to this. So can you give us some context now on sort of, you know, what hasn't worked? Because that equally is important when we uncover. Often I find the things that don't work, other than other things that then lead to the solution that we need, right? That's that sort of fail fast journey to go, okay, what do we need to uncover? What do we need to become curious about to then be able to achieve our outcome? So can you give us some context on that maybe over the last 12 months and how you refined your approach? How you're going to love Ted Lasso just as a starting point for anyone who's listening that hasn't just tuned in because season four is not far away. I've got to be done. I'm starting. I'm going to binge it. Yeah, hey, absolutely. I would only encourage it. You know, a lot of life lessons in that, but, you know, we'll move on from Ted because otherwise I'll spend all day. I think probably the interesting point for me is not so much around what didn't work, but what lessons you've learned because they are, obviously lessons you've learned are a reflection of what might not have worked as well as you at home, but the beauty about digital marketing is just, you know, a bike product of its evolution since, you know, in the time I've been at marketing is that you make learnings fast and they are staring you in the face because the data doesn't lie and you've never had more opportunity to understand and assess the data. And we have, as a business moved from a business that was focused on what is the data telling us to how do we draw insight from that data and make a deliberate change in order to shift our strategy so that we can be more focused, more fast. I think an example of a learning that we've made in the last 12 months, and I've got a great team who ultimately other leads on this sort of stuff, but the learning we've made, particularly if you look at the lead generation for a moment in the last 12 months is that we had been running, I guess, a full funnel approach when it comes to the channels that are available for to drive lead generation. You know, there are many ways you can skin that cat. We were using a social and search approach to lead generation. There are no shortage of people in real estate who will sell you an opportunity to generate leads in different ways and most of them are using those products in some way, shape or form. What we noticed, however, in the last 12 months and what we've shifted as a result of that is we were using both, we were using meta and search and over the course of the last 12 months we found the efficiency in meta to be diminishing as far as the overall value that we were generating from the investment that we make in it. And so, you know, and we looked at just key factors or simple things like what are our cost-burning leads as an indicator of performance. Because we don't have deep pockets, we're not the McDonald's of real estate, but we are efficient, faster and effective. And so for us, it was around how we making the best use of the investment opportunity that we do have to drive the outcomes that our network demands of us. And so we had to make a move. We've shifted from out of meta into a search option and for us, which is delivering not only more leads, but with more investment, with more optimization and with more dedication to it, we're actually getting, we've made some further reductions on the cost per lead, but we're just getting more efficient, better results. We're now also going deeper on that, which I'm sure many people have or are. In an environment like ours, it's good to make those insights and make changes as a result of those. But we also look at what happens as a result of those leads. Because ultimately, what we're creating is not leads, they're opportunities. They need to be converted on by our team from a sales perspective. And so we're just on that trend just because you've brought up a multitude of good points here. First of all, let's just take a look at the fact that in order to make that, that's quite a bold decision to make as a team right. So, they're obviously, the team to be able to come together and go right, we're going to do this with the data backed information to go, okay, this makes good sense to us. Sometimes it is those bold moves that are required to go, "No, no, we're going to pivot the, or you know, turn the ship or whatever it might be to be able to get that desired outcome." And then secondly, to your point, when you're looking at, and I think this is where sometimes marketers can not necessarily go wrong, but just get overwhelmed in the data to go, "We're hanging a second. We have to look, we can't just look at that one stage." To your point, we're going to look at multiple stages of the funnel. So, "Yeah, okay, if we're going to get a more efficiently from paid searches and example, what is that more efficiently going to drive us in terms of appointments and inquiries and listings and then, obviously, ultimately, sales?" So, when you're looking at that, and I think I could get a feel for obviously the amount of data back decisions you are making, can you give our list of some context then of that full funnel feedback loop that you're now about to touch on around, "Okay, well, yes, we're now driving a more efficient lead, or a high quality lead or a lower cost per lead, but what is that actually resulting to an air-end and air-end in air-end game?" Yeah, and air-end game is just winning more business or doing more deals or buys. And, selfishly, it's because we believe that we can give those customers the best possible experience and generate the best outcome. And you would expect me to say that naturally. But we are, and have for a long time, looked at what is the end result that we are getting in terms of from lead opportunities creative to leads converted all listings. So, what comes to market from those leads that we do generate? So, we do track that and we have a conversion ratio that I think is for a high stakes game or a high value game decent. It's about anywhere between 30% or more, which you'd love to be winning 100% of listings, but at the same time, for us, the reality is based on a whole set of circumstances, which may be different for different people. There's lots of choice. And so, for us, we've got to continue to work, though, on refining that and growing that. I mean, it's our goal to get that to 100. There's no doubt. But at the same time, we make small steps. And so, we are continuing to assess the data. So, what is it, if we're making a shift and you're right, it is a bold move, but we need to be, you know, our network moves at a fast pace. And so, for us, we need to operate in the same way and make decisions, you know, like we have in doubling down into search. We've got some experience since in history in that to know that it will work. And so, it's a calculated move. And obviously, we've seen some data, you know, that indicated that it would be a good shift for us. But at the same time, it was, you know, it was calculated. So, we're now looking at, well, what is the search channel delivering when I compare it to what we were doing previously with a dual approach of meta-insert or social-inserts, as far as are we converting more or less listings from those that are generated? So, you know, we're in the throes of that at the moment as far as what is, forget for a moment the most cost-effective channel, what is the most productive in terms of, you know, actually being able to generate those loads and converting them. And is there anything we can draw from that or is that just merely an indicator of entry point? Yeah, that makes total sense. So, also, that's now really coming together nicely. And then if we just look at sort of the final part of that, which, you know, you and I have discussed of this sort of challenge of today's consumer, where they are moving sort of through multiple stages of the final back and forth, you know, they become aware, they consider, then life happens, so they're out, then they come back, they become aware again, they consider, you know, and then, you know, maybe hopefully finally they get through the intention stage. You've spoken a lot about this whole transition from a passive to an active consumer. Can you give us some context of just, you know, theoretically the sense of, with the, this evolving marketplace, this evolving, you know, media funnel, the, an evolving way of the way in which people engage and the information that they now have available to us, you know, how you can move people from the passive stage to the active stage, which I really like as a, as a construct to look at, okay, well, what can be done in those places and meeting people where they are, meeting consumers where they are? Yeah, I mean, it requires all touch points really to be truthful to move them from a passive to an active customer because that journey, like I said, is anywhere from nine to 12 months on average as far as the starting to end point. And so for us, I mean, we're fortunate, we've got a large network, so we've got about 400 officers within our group from an Australian perspective, and so there's plenty of shopfronts where the heartcaught brand is exposed. But if you talk about just the digital journey that someone goes on from a passive customer, so, you know, we're very deliberate in our strategy because we need to be, you know, whether it's budget efficiencies or not, in who and how we reach customers. And so from a passive perspective, you know, there are lots of ways for us to reach those, but social is a really great example of someone who passively may not be thinking real estate in any capacity at all, whether that's moving home, to, you know, to find a new space for them as a rental or whether that's looking at an investment property opportunity or whether that's, you know, taking, you know, the family enough rooting them a moon in somewhere else, if they're nearing that cycle of age, where they're, you know, thinking about school, for example. And so for us, we require, or we take a channel approach to how we engage different audiences differently so that we, you know, in some respects, move them through that. But for us, we need to find ways to own that customer as early as we possibly can. And then obviously use that information that they're giving us that we have access to in order to reconnect with them regularly. You know, we've got to do that. You need to be really efficient in what you're doing digitally, whether that's, you know, a high performing, high functional website that's offering value through to a sound email marketing strategy through to, you know, a brand of people who are actively engaged in the marketplace through an advertising strategy that's reaching them at the right time with the right information, you know, in the right way. You know, it's the, it really is, you know, it's the sum of all parts that allows us to move someone from passive to active. Now for us, you know, like I've said to you, there's plenty of competition. So there's no shortage of someone of opportunity for someone to shift from, you know, in that journey from Harcalds to another one of the brands that are available. And so our responsibility is making sure though that we are capitalising on the information that we have and giving them the value that they need, want, deserve in order for them to retain Harcalds within their options or of a brand to consider when they are, you know, getting closer to that stage of making a decision around right. Or if I'm going to list and sell, you know, it has to, I have to include Harcalds within the process of, you know, selecting and shopping list, right? That's one. And that's the thing is that now we've got those buying signals available to us. You know, if we take what we're all doing sort of, you know, 10, definitely 20 years ago, you know, we didn't have that data in those signals available to us to say, okay, right now they're ready for this, now they're ready for this. So that focus on the passive to the active buyer is key. Now before we move on to the next section, Trin, I always like to ask, you know, this is every marketer's challenge, but how do you justify brand investment when performance marketing is often delivering an immediate result in terms of leads and sales? What's your take on the, you know, long and short of it, so to speak, for brand and performance marketing? It's such a, I mean, it's a juggle and it's, you know, it's an age old battle that I'm sure marketers have en-face today. And I'm not sure what will be the time or moment in history that that will change, but we're, you know, look, I think we're fortunate. I work in a business who, you know, values the expertise of people who lead different business units. And so, you know, I am, you know, very lucky in that regard. We're a business that values and starts at a place of trust and it's yours to lose. And so for us, you know, it'll always be a juggler around brand investment versus lead investment because we are and have become like many real estate businesses. A business that is, that enjoys the sugar hit of a lead generation and the value that it can create and the short term. But it obviously has diminishing returns if it's all you do in the long term. And like I said, there are, there is too much opportunity for someone to choose someone else for that for us to not care and want to invest in brand building because real estate isn't transactional in the same way that buying, you know, a hamburger or a pair of shoes or a set of glasses might be, you know, we are a long term service based people based industry. And you are often entering or exiting the market at a time where there are emotional circumstances at hand. And so for us, we can't ignore the need to build brand connection value and resonance with customers because there is too much choice. And equally, there is too much at stake for them at that point in time for us to not want to be part of their consideration set. And so, you know, it's no doubt a difficult job to continue to convince, you know, whether it's the cease-weat, whether it's the board, whoever it may be, that we need to continue to build brand investment and make that brand investment. But we are fortunate to have people who appreciate the opportunity and the value that we provide through history and experience. But it also requires runs on the board. We can't simply just rely on the board. or rest on our laurels and say, hey, just trust us. You know, they're up or forth. You've got to win over those hearts and minds at some point, right? You've got to create that stickiness so people go, OK, that's a brand. I always say, I always joke to people and say, if someone's especially if someone's not marketing and I say, OK, well, name me a brand of toothpaste. And nine times out of 10, they can only name two. Colgate and McCleens is an example. But actually, there's 125 brands of toothpaste available. So you have to find ways. And I think you're right in this space that you guys are in that creativity aspect, balancing that. Because yes, we've got performance, which is obviously that what I would call the medium mechanics. How do we drive the leads? How do we drive the conversion? Then we've got the brand where we can look at both, OK, where how do we do that from a media advertising standpoint? But ultimately, how do we win over hearts and minds? And I know you've got quite an interesting insight there on this as a compound creativity study that sort of starts. Can you just share a little bit with us about that? Because I think a lot of listeners, a lot of marketers know about the long and short of it, by Peter Field and Liz Bennett. But this is a slightly interesting take. And I think we do need to combine the power of our marketing and media advertising with our creative cut-through in order to really get the ultimate brain performance. Yeah, look, I personally fell in love with this study. So, you know, I'm absolutely happy to talk about it. So it's, whilst it's not mine, I'm very much an advocate for it. I write a lot about it to our network when we're able to get in front of them, whether that's through the construct of our magazine, through to events and through to webinars. And so, they'll be bored about, you know, hearing from me about this study. And there are many. You've touched on a couple of others that I guess allude to the value of brand building and brand marketing investment. But the one around compound creativity by system wanting partnership with IPA is, I think it's the best I've seen for a little while. I think because, you know, there are a number of factors. It's longer, too. And also, I think it was a study over seven years. You know, it's of mass media investment. I think there was something like $6 billion worth of advertising investment assessed. And it's something like 50 odd brands or more. And I'll get some of those numbers slightly wrong. But it gives you some sense of the proof points in the investment of the value of that study. And so, you know, what it says or what it does, and I encourage people to look it up, really is that brands who invest and do marketing consistently. And by that, that's creative playing into the same space as media investment. They, over the course of that period of time, it was proven that there are a whole lot of elements that are created or value that is created around doing that well. And so, in simple terms, you know, what I like about it and what I like and it's from a real estate perspective, who operates in a franchise business where there are a lot of extremely creative people who value and see marketing as an element of their job that they can absolutely do really well. And absolutely no doubt they can. But at the same time, the importance of brand marketing and brand consistency with regards to market share, profitability, share of mind, share of wallet, all of those things, there were indicators out of this study. And I, you know, I won't quote the percentages, I'll let people read for themselves. But the insight from this study around the increases that a brand who does that well were astonishing. And so for me, you know, we operate in a brand that, you know, no doubt we've got opportunity when it comes to how we do things consistently and well because we have far too much competition to not. And so this study for me was a great ally in the importance of doing brand marketing really well because if you do it in a way where it's disparate where it looks different, where it sounds different, where we don't seem to be cohesive and we're not consistent, then I know, as an example of drawing reference from this study, that we will find and we will find. And people will see through that, right? Like the consumer now is so switched on, so smart. We were receiving thousands of messages per day that we have to appreciate that valued about a cut through and drive that creativity. So look it up, everybody. It's worth the read and absolutely drawing those insights. So thank you for sharing that trend. Now I want to just change tune a little bit now and get into this sort of structuring high performance teams. And I really want to understand how you are able to structure and manage your brand and your performance teams for effective collaboration. And the reason I'm really interested in this is when I'm speaking with CMOs and marketers, this is one of the biggest challenges is how do we drive a full funnel, holistic view of our marketing and our media advertising approach. But we also allocate the responsibility within the team to drive the brand, to drive the consideration, to drive the ultimate performance without losing sight of the omnichannel experience that needs to be delivered. So there's a lot in there, but I'm just really keen to get your take trend on being a significant size business in this space is how do you manage that effectively? We're a pretty lean main machine. So for us, there are a lot to it. There is a lot to it as you've suggested as far as managing performance and brand teams. I think it has to start with, I'm very fortunate to have great people who ultimately lead that function within our business. And there is a delicate and fine balances to where that line is, because sometimes it can be crossed, obviously without intent. And so roles and responsibilities include the delineation of being part of the process to add value where your expertise lies is in simple terms how we try our best to define it and to execute on that. We don't always get it right. But we operate in a team where we value the education, the knowledge of the individual. And I don't give you the same heart as to do, but at the same time, we appreciate the value that each other provides. And so having a very clear process that you go through from start to finish has helped our team get there fast because we can't lose speed at the sake of ego or personality or opinion. And so we do very have, very much have a clear guide or guard rails when it comes to roles and responsibilities. And from a brand perspective, that's leveraging the inside value and knowledge of someone who understands the construct of our brand, how to pull it together, how to understand a leverage in our brand position, how to correct compelling creative and messaging in order to have impact at scale. And we are talking about scale because we do service 11 countries that we operate in. And so that involves whole history of challenges, whether that's imagery, content and other things. - Down to the finite details, right? - So we do have to be an angel like when it comes to, I guess, understanding the role, but each other plays. And so from a brand perspective, we've got someone in that role who knows our brand back to front and who can execute at pace, at scale and do that really well. But at the same time, they really appreciate the performance aspect of what marketing does because one can't live without the other. And so, you know, for our team, it's how do we extrapolate the insights up front, so in the process of ideation, creation, briefing for the teams who work up what it is that we do, to make sure that what we deliver at the end takes into account the ever evolving space that is digital marketing. And whether that's how the algorithm changes and performs sort of different channels, sort of different formats through the way in which objectively what we are trying to do. Because even if we talk about objectives for a moment within digital marketing, you know, the beauty about it is too that you can be really clear on what your intent is and what your outcome is that you're achieving. And so your marketing and creative needs to support and speak to that. And so, you know, the two work to get out from the start. And I talk about two units, branded performance marketing. Because they have to. And are those teams, Trent, in your view, are those teams working cohesively together? They, you know, daily conversations, daily interaction because we've got some marketers out there that are running, literally as a CMO, they've got their brand marketing team, but then they've got their e-commerce team completely separate. And so it's a completely separate division. Whereas then we've got other businesses, which I think you're sort of talking more to is, hey, we've got this marketing team, each with different contributions, brand performance and so on. So what do you think in your, you know, in your view? What is going to get the best outcome? What's going to get the best result to drive, you know, ultimately brand, but also performance? Yeah, hey, it'll work differently for different people. But my view on that is that we, we own the intelligence and the execution internally. So we don't rely on the, on the need for no doubt, we call on expertise for agencies and the like, when we need help to, I guess, think a little bit more laterally as far as how we go to market for creative executions and brand, and brand work and all that sort of stuff. But at the same time, for us, caretably because we are a business that does have the scar that we have than the complexities that we do, for us, it works best if we have that talent in-house and we absolutely do. And that allows us. And all working in the same team, like is that sort of that, you know, exactly, okay, there you go, because that, I think is just one thing that's been on market as mine, is, you know, really especially for CMOs, structuring their team. It's like, do I bring this all together? Are I going to accept that I've got separate silos and divisions? And I think, you know, the, the core point of bringing everyone to the table to go, look, we each have a role to play. We each have a plot to play in this brand creative and some businesses, e-commerce, performance, whatever it might be, to go right, this, you know, everyone. on the boat, let's go. This is the direction that we're heading in with those that now each of the talents, each of the people contributing doing what they do best. Yeah, and I think if you are operating in that model and that's not to say it's wrong and I'm right, I think the important part if you are operating in that model from what I've saying within our business that does or has a history of probably like lots of businesses working in silos, but I feel like we've never been right now hardcore. It's been better placed to have those silos. I feel like they've fallen down. I feel like they've removed and I tell you the reason why I feel like why and that's really because we have found a way to have what is a complex strategy simplified. So the messaging that we are delivering our network is clear, it's consistent, it's of high frequency and it does not change. So you know, talk about communication and the value of communication and whether that's relationships or whether that's work. You know, communication it can never, I think it's the linchpin to everything that anyone does. And so when we talk about how we operate, we know we've never been in a position, been in a better position to I think be more effective and be able to operate faster because everyone understands what it is that we are working to. It is very simple messaging that's easy to understand and easy to interpret into your role, my role, the role of of anyone within our business and I think I don't think you can discount that. I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of if we just go back to yes, we've got all of this technology, yes, we've got all of this availability. But if you just go back to the core fundamentals, you know, I talk a lot about critical thinking, you know, using logic. But then also the precise need for good communication, we have acronyms in our business, CCC and POL, CCC is crystal clear communication and POL is precision of language because you cannot underestimate the value of that articulations, whoever you're communicating with can get that experience and know into your point especially when you're managing these teams exactly what needs to be done. Now I just want to change tracks again just on this whole use of digital. So obviously we've got this place now where digital when it first started was sort of seen as a performance mechanism. It's like, okay, great, we can get, you know, leads from here, we can get sales from here, we can drive any commerce business here. How do you, when you're balancing traditional and digital media, how do you educate, you know, stakeholders, the business on the need to leverage digital or a holistic level to also play a huge role in that awareness and consideration play? Is that something that, you know, it's just naturally quite fluid in the business or is that something that you're still going through, you know, that education process worth and if so, how do you, how do you bring that to life and how do you create that importance? Because now with the digital platforms, we can use those pure play as a winus and consideration drivers. Yeah, I think we lead from the front, but we provide opportunity that's turnkey that makes it really easy to do ultimately what it is that we are saying you need to be doing these days. And so, you know, for us, whilst we have a team and we have a budget and we have a plan equally, that operates in isolation and is of limited value unless the thousand officers or an Australia, the 400 officers, have an understanding, appreciation, and an opportunity to replicate what it is that we do on a local level. And so, you know, that requires a couple of things from our perspective to be done really well. One, we need to be able to provide then access to what it is that they need to functionally just do what it is that they need to do. And that's templates, assets, logos, forget it's the hygiene stuff that they need to have to operate at scale fast. But I need to have access to the best in market platforms that allow them to understand what it is that the opportunity is and search engine marketing is a really good one. Unless you understand it and you are proficient in it, then it's probably complex to get into and it's probably an easy choice to opt out of and to just to go into social because these days, you know, the construct of how you can go to market within social from a paid perspective is pretty simple. And so, when we talk about the value of and the accessibility of it, that's what we talk about. We have a partner in the search engine marketing space that provides a scalable solution that our network can understand the value of and make a deliberate choice to invest in as part of their local marketing strategy. For us then, beyond that, you know, we've got turnkey partner for digital marketing in other environments, you know, to play social and the like, who provides an opportunity for our network to build awareness and consideration through marketing product that we have called Harcoltz Reach, which is proprietary, bespoke and allows them to go to market in a seamless way, whether that's for property through the CRM to deploy through to the other avenues that they can choose, which is to do personal brand marketing or to do lead generation marketing. And so, we talk about, we talk about leading from the front, we talk about providing access to accessibility through best in class partners, and we provide education. So, we, it's our responsibility, not theirs, I see, as being informed and to understand what's happening within the space of digital, not from the complexities of algorithm changes or anything like that, but it is not giving them an opportunity and that accessibility to be able to go right here, it is here are the levers in which you can pull in your respective business to make sure that they're armed. Now, can you give us a little bit of context about this Harcoltz Reach? Because it's quite, Harcoltz Reach is quite, obviously, when talking about leading from the front, you know, obviously you guys have invested in this platform, can you give us a little bit of context about what that is and how that has helped you significantly increase their ability to deliver for your franchisees? Yeah, so when I started in two and a half years ago at Harcoltz, what was very clear to me was that there was a real lack of consistency, but a massive opportunity when it comes to having a turnkey solution for real estate digital marketing and Harcoltz Reach is effectively it. So, what is it? It's a product that allows our networks, our agents, our property managers and our officers to invest in in really simple, in a really simple way through the CRM, with a series of products and prices and outcomes as a result of that, to go to market. Because their responsibility, irrespective of what they're doing, is to create competition, drive value, and in doing that, they're building awareness and identifying prospective customers. So, Reach is a product that we have partnered with a third party on to bring to our network to earmark as the solution for them to go to market when they are thinking about a digital strategy for local investment and that could be anything from property marketing, like I said, to lead generation through to personal brand marketing and every real estate business worth their salt. We'll have some sort of solution like this. And one of those, what's that led to? What are some of the results that you've been able to see through that to go, okay? How can we actually measure the efficiency of this? What are we actually getting from this to drive either efficiency or time to say, whatever it might be? Yeah, so look, I mean, we were fortunate to have the support of one part of our network. I guess we're the guinea pigs of Harcoltz Reach for us. And so, a period of 12 months, they ran Harcoltz Reach within their business for their listings, just as a listings product, so a sales product. And what we saw over the course of that, what it allowed us to do was really start to understand the value that Reach would provide our network at scale. And what do I mean by that? Well, lots of people in real estate talk about a product like Reach, you know, in the context of, I'd deliver these impressions or these amount of clicks or whatever it might be. For us, vanity metrics don't matter anymore. And nor do they matter for those that are investing their harder because for those that don't understand real estate, and I'm sure lots of people do having transacted, but it's vendor paid advertising for the most part. So you are the one that is ultimately in control of the investment that you make to market your property when it goes to sale or is up for lease as to how you create competition and create or maximize your opportunity for revenue, whether that's to sell or to lease in the fastest possible time. And so, what Reach did for that particular group that we tried it with for 12 months was proof two things. One was, over the course of 12 months, I really strong sample set of data. It was more than 500 properties. It proved that for those that had reached versus didn't have reach attributed to their marketing campaign. And let's not forget that often the minimum standard for a property marketing campaign these days includes property portals, includes maul drops, includes a whole raft of things. But what we saw was when they added reach, they were able to list and sell in 10 days less time. And there's nothing that makes a vendor happier than getting a result faster. But equally as important for that is how we maximise the value opportunity because it doesn't come around all that often. Like I said, seven to ten years ago, we're on and it's the life's biggest asset. So the equity that we've built in that, the blood sweat and tears that have gone into that investment, you know, we want to extrapolate the maximum return. So they were able to also achieve a $17,000 high price point on average for those that weren't using reach. And so if you talk about just performance metrics for a moment, they are the things that ring the register in real estate when it comes to cash. And so for us, you know, that was enough to say, right. We now are worthy. Absolutely has to do that. And so, look, what has it done beyond that for us, you know, and their metrics that obviously matter, it probably matter most if I'm honest with you. But having the adoption that we've had, so we launched it 12 months ago or a little bit. longer to our network. We've had up to at its peak 80% of the network using reach within what it is that they're doing. What has that done for us? We've sent a 44% increase in traffic to our website and if you want to talk about the creation of stickiness and customers, we know that we are in competition with some pretty serious players and so when we talk about portals and other competition for the moment, the portals outstrip everyone when it comes to customers and customer relationships and so we won't and are attending to compete in that respect because we know it's a place where people start but we need to become the place that people come back to and visit when they are starting to hone in on what it is that they want to do whether that's to sell, whether that's to buy and so for us, reach has given us an opportunity to really create a relationship with customers that we just weren't capitalising on before and to have a 44% increase in traffic offered decent base is an outstanding result for us. 100% and I think there's so much value in that for a lot of marketers listening is really what is that for you? You guys have been able to obviously implement this platform, test it accordingly to ensure that you've got statistical significance to go right, this is giving us a great result and then obviously you've got the scale to get that out to your network but I think the fundamental is really come back as to having it being curious to find that solution, then being able to measure it and make sure that it's doing what it needs to do, then you get the rewards that so fewer are able to achieve through that persistence of actually going through that process to make it happen and now you've got something that you can scale across the network. So I do think that for marketers out there it's just about asking, okay well what is that for me? What's that for my brand and how can I put something like that in play? You know it doesn't have to be at a huge scale but how can I put something like that in play to be able to get the outcome that I need to achieve from this? So I think that just that example for you know results driven advertising, results driven marketing is a brilliant example so thank you for that, thank you very much for that. Now I just want to I've got a couple of last questions that I want to cover off with you just to really give our listeners this value because all these pearls of wisdom that you're you're shooting out today, I'm going to have to we're going to have to catch with them. So I just want to flick quickly to tracking an attribution. Obviously in an omnichannel world, I mean my question to you is you know the biggest challenges now okay well how can I actually track this consumer through the funnel, through the offline and their digital interactions with that brand? My question to you is with attribution changing you know last click post click all that kind of thing evolving how do you track and measure marketing performance across the funnel and what is your view on this to achieve sort of ultimate results and ultimate trackability? Yeah look hey it's evolved and different people will have a different response no doubt but because we operate in a relatively modest budget when we compare with some of the other luxury brands that have or other brands where I've had more luxury like McDonald's. We have to track every dollar that we spend and this investment ladders up against you know the performance outcome which then ladders up against either being a brand building activity or a lead generation activity. And so when we talk about specifics you know for us the way that we measure marketing performance there are a number of ways and so for us we talk about our own internal data. We have a team of people within our business who operate what we call H316 we try to be much to your listeners but think of it you know as your analytics department within your world and so we're fortunate enough for them to be able to work with us to identify everything from you lead approach or the conversion buyer enquiries market share third-party providers from third-party providers you know our network business performance NPS data from customers and so when we talk about omnichannel world how do we track marketing there is no shortage of information that we have. When you add on to that things like channel insights we're a partner of Adobe Analytics we use Google Trends search data to I guess assess how we're performing against our competitive landscape using brand search terms and you know and high-intensity search terms you know there is no shortage of ways that we can understand and assess our performance these days and so you know I'm probably I might be different to others but when we talk about our first click versus last click attribution I really think that the world offers us so much data these days that I'm not sure it's either but if I had to choose one I feel like we're probably more leading to first click than last click because you know at the same time last click for others may necessarily be definitely a direct correlation to purchase outcomes but for us it was around it's around intent because we need to start with intent because we did come from what was their first interaction where did we grab their attention enough to warrant them doing something towards the attainment of engaging with us absolutely because we have to be efficient we have to be effective and we need to understand for us intense a really good sign and it and it can also allows us to continue to to I guess market to that particular audience and it and it definitely displays a behaviour for us that we can feed into other areas of our business whether that's you know within digital marketing or whether that's within the space of products that we create that give our agents a tool to make contact with people with they're showing different intense right so for us and we didn't ever get into that but you know there are other things that we do that we I guess provide our agents an opportunity for them to be really effective because their focus needs to be on dollar productive activity not marketing and so for us for them it's listing and selling and dawn knocking and making calls and optimizing their database and communicating appropriately if they are doing that well and we are doing our job well that it works and so when I talk about attribution for us it's not a metric or a model that we invest heavily in from a discussion point of view but absolutely we probably lean more into first and last for the reasons that I shared yeah no that's brilliant thank you for sharing that context because I know a lot of a lot of marketers are dancing between you know which is going to be the best the best approach going forward so look Trent this has been an incredible deep dive into real estate marketing I know you know our CMOs in our marketers listening walk away with valuable insights from your expertise so before we wrap up I just have one one last question for you what's the one key piece of advice you'd like to give marketing leaders looking to drive our stronger performance in 2025 wow it's a I'm a more question to end on right because we've covered a lot of ground if I boil it down to what is giving us the success that we have been able to enjoy over the last 12 months I reckon it's really simple start with a clear strategy define what it is that you are wanting to achieve and obviously for us it ladders into our overarching business strategy if you know for us you know in most real estate businesses there are some pretty simple metrics that businesses like us work towards you know and growth is a really good example of that you'll hear growth talked about in real estate circles more than what the Prime Minister will when he talks about his next political campaign but that's that for us it just starts with the strategy and it's it's really important to invest the time into getting that right because it sets up the investment of time that we make as a team in order to realise the strategy and generate outcomes that we're able to generate because we've got this thing this north star that we're working to and so I think you know I've been really fortunate with massive brands but never has it been more simple to achieve what we want to then what it is right now within Harcourt because we have a very clear vision mission set of values and purpose that guide the business and within our business and within our department we have a really clear strategy that sets us on a path every day every hour every week every month towards a set of goals that we track measure a report on optimised change and about real estate changes you know every day whether that's you know external market conditions to changes within your own network and so for us it has to be just start with the strategy. Yeah I love that I couldn't I couldn't agree more I can always refer back to Stephen Covey, Stephen Habits of a highly effective people you know number two begin with the end in mind I think we could often underestimate the value of just getting everybody aligned to that core outcome so that is brilliant thank you so much for sharing that trend. Now what an awesome this has just been so great the last thing I want to ask is if people want to connect with you or learn more about Harcourt's marketing strategies where's the best place to find you? Yeah I mean for most people it ought to be like Dent which you know I'm really easy to find I'll be the only Trent Sutton who works for Harcourt from LinkedIn so definitely you can find me there Hey I'm also happy for listeners to also drop me a note at Trent. Sutton at Harcourt's.net if they ever want to know more or understand more or dive into a particular point that we've talked about today I know that we've covered lots of ground fast and I'm hopeful that they've got value out of it but anything that they want to talk about I'm very open to be connected and contacted about and how I look forward to hearing from people. Unreal that's fantastic thank you very much and I know that there is going to be a ton of valuable insights that marketers are going to be about to extract when I think that's what it's about you know not one of us have all the answers and I think this collaboration of being able to share insights and ideas and strategies that work is what is going to foster you know all of us as marketers or you know whatever we're trying to achieve to be able to actually you know drive those results to the next level. So there you have it powerful insights from Trent Sutton on unlocking real estate marketing success in 25. If you've got value from this episode hit subscribe to the black box of media and leave a review it helps more marketers like you unlock the hidden strategies behind high performance media. So let's keep this conversation going if today's episode has sparked new ideas or challenged you in a way or challenged you in a different way of the way you think about media I'd love to hear from you drop me a message on LinkedIn and share your biggest takeaway. If you want more insight But a knowledge remember you can listen and watch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube for future episodes once again packed with actionable insights. So until next time, keep pushing boundaries, keep testing and most importantly, keep making media work harder for you. See you in the next episode.