Rana Hussain - Belonging For Connection

My name's Ryan Shelton. I'm a co-host on the Imperfects, the Jewish grandson of Austrian and English immigrants. And I grew up on and am now currently living on Warundjeri country. I'd like to recognise the traditional peoples of this continent whose land was stolen nearly 250 years ago. In particular, we at the Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Warundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on the Imperfects. Hello, I'm still British and welcome to the Academy of Imperfection, where experts in their field share their wisdom on the subject of Imperfection. Today we speak to Rana Hussein about the importance of inclusion and how it leads to a greater sense of belonging. In belonging work, you talk about belonging as feeling accepted as seen as included, but also trusting that the tribe is going to protect you. When you need it, the tribe is going to protect you and even in that small moment he gave me that. I know you're not supposed to be and it's probably not cool to become friends with your lecturers, but I feel like we're already really good friends with today's lecturer. I think so. From my point of view, it feels like that. So my feeling is, you know when you're at school and all of a sudden the topic like its PA or this is for me, especially or at university and all of a sudden the lecture becomes about sport, I feel very excited because we have one of the most important people in Australian sport today here with us in Rana Hussein. So Rana, welcome to you. Thank you. Can I get that grab later? Yes, absolutely. It will be released publicly. Yeah, it's your gift. You don't have to do that in any way, Trilph. So if you don't know, Rana, I can give you a bit of a buy on here. So working with the leadership of the Creek at Australia, Richmond Football Club, Collingwood Football Club and the AFLW, Rana is determined on making a positive difference by eliminating discrimination, her method, representation in sport. Rana grew up in Melbourne surrounded by sport. Her family was all about the cricket as well as ours. Yes, big time. And Rana was too until, oh, until she fell in love with the brashness and unruliness of the AFL after a Melbourne and Western balldogs game. Do you remember that game? Well, so clearly. How old were you? I was, oh, I was in year year seven. So like 12, 13. And it was Friday night at the MCG and I, like, my body's feeling around. Like it was exhilaration. I'd been to the MCG so much, but that night I just fell in love with the game. Really? So what year was that? Oh, man. It's trying to think which Melbourne team it was. Oh, no, I know exactly which Melbourne team it was. It was just before they made the grand final in 2000. Shen, I would. So it was like Nets, Woe, Ward and Rust, Robots and. Yeah. Neil Dana, who had a hard time. I had no heart, no heart, no heart. I was not going to lie. I was too in Melbourne supporter. I am. Oh my god. Fantastic. I see what he games in our future right? Yes. Well, did you remember any unruly activity or behavior that stood out as like, the thing I really remember was all the dads yelling their heads off, like just screaming. And I, that is not my dad. My dad is a very sensible Indian man who would never like put a hair out of place. Like just. I know the type. Just like the idea that they were growing up screaming. Just I loved it so much. There was something so rebellious about it. And you know, like it's, it was very much like ballet. Like they were dancing on that field to me. Really? And I just thought, oh, this is not cricket. That's so interesting. It's so true. As a, because I used to go to the 40s, I still go to the 40s now, but I used to go to the 40s, a kid and you're used to seeing adults behave. And it's the one place you see adults like just losing their shit. Yes. And it's all accepted. It's all like part of the experience. It's funny. You just talk that story about your dad. So our dad is Sri Lankan. And I remember when dad took me when I was, I know it would have been 10. He took me to Paul Simon. He was playing at the tennis centre in Melbourne now, Rod Laiberina. And no, not Rod Laiberina, isn't Rod Laiberina? Yeah, Rod Laiberina. And you were worried it was the one that we don't talk about. No, Rod's good. Rod's good. No, Rod's good. He's going to come. No, Rod's great. Yeah, love Rod. And, anyway, it was, I'd never been to a concert before. I don't know what I was expecting, but I just have this memory of seeing with dad who very, like never has a hair out of place and is a quiet, he's a quiet person. And Paul Simon comes and says, "You ever jump up and start dancing?" And I felt incredibly scared by all the dancing. So I was like, "What are you meant to know?" I felt very uncomfortable with it. And dad could sense my, maybe I'm uncomfortable, but dad would definitely not get up and dance. And he turned to me and he said, "As you can see, people are dancing. If you would like to tap your leg or even tap your feet, you could do that. I might tap my knee with my hand." And he tapped his knee with his hand the whole way through. I went and it was fine. And I just, I didn't enjoy it. I was so scared I wasn't doing what I was meant to be doing. It's like the sequel to Billy Elliot. Anyway, we're getting rid of that, right here. As Rana just said, she's a child of Indian migrants. And she draws most of her values and morals from her Islamic faith. Rana believes implicitly that good team culture and inclusive leadership are the foundation of achieving excellence, no matter what your goals are. Rana's company, Good Human, is a consultancy service which aims to influence leaders of workplaces to curate their culture into one of inclusion and belonging. As well as her advocacy work, Rana hosted the Atta Sankton podcast, which was an all-female voice on all things AFLM and AFLW. Rana is a board member of Reconciliation Australia and Victoria Women's Trust consultant on the #DoMore project and it's a freelance broadcaster writer and presenter. In short, she's a very busy person. Wow. So we are honored that you join us. Yeah, today we've actually chatted before when I was hosting Life Matters on Radio National. And the night before I read Rana's bio and I saw on the run sheet we had a total of four minutes with Rana and I was like, well, this is just why people have to listen to me for an hour, but they only get four minutes at Rana's ridiculous. So I'm so happy we get to have this conversation now. Oh, me, Cheru. I've also slid into your dams and your dams and your soon-learn that that's just something that happens when you get to know me. That's good. I love a slide. Well, I think it's like one of the most equitable things that you could do is like, yeah, I might not know you, but I can at least slid into your dams and tell you what I think. Can I slide back? I think you did once. But very fairly, like you were talking about something on the pod and I had to just pull over because I had so many thoughts and just directed them at you. Was it about my running? No, no. It was about probably what he'd talk about, but it was something that you'd experienced around. You turn up to relationships in any interaction, really open and open-hearted and giving, and you assume that's how the other person's going to turn up. And I feel very similarly, but then I was reflecting on my own experience of that and the messaging that I had over my lifetime around people not reciprocating that and shutting down and what that does then to your sense of belonging and relationship building. And so I decided to just pull over and voice, not you, all of all of the things that I had to do. Did you voice something, as well? I think it was just like, well you, sorry, everybody else listening to this. It was just good. You, we would do. Which is the cafe. It was like, that's right. So I just said hello. Oh, so the IRL slide. Yeah, that's what I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And then you slid into it real life. Well, why not? I've so much of the human to do, but I just. I was buzzing after meeting you there, but yeah, that's great. That was really nice, yeah. This is very a theme in my life of the way I do things. Like very rarely get an invitation. It's usually like kicking a door down or saying, I think I should be in that room, so. What a great place to start, I reckon, for this conversation. So with the work that you're doing now, at least we're just touching on for how important it is, I'm guessing you didn't just decide out of nowhere. Do you know what I think this is a topic I'm up to? You're interested in this must have come from a lifetime of feeling a certain way and wanting to make sure others don't feel that way. Yeah, very much so. I think now I realise looking back, my whole life has been examining, exploring and understanding what it means to belong. I probably didn't have that language as a child, but I was certainly ruminating on it. And then just have always pursued what it means and then how can I belong? And then eventually it kind of turned into, all right, well how do I help other people belong? Because it's not just me that doesn't feel like they belong. But yeah, growing up here as a Muslim community, I mean, I was born here, actually, but I call myself a migrant because that's been my experience. I don't always feel like I'm Australian or if I do, nobody else kind of claims that for me either. So it was definitely a migrant experience and I've spent a lot of time kind of feeling on the outer of whatever it means to be Australian. So I just, I just want to pause for a second because I think it's worth noting that this is an academy and this is where we learn from people and I think the reason this is a really important topic is that there are so many people living in Australia right now who relate to this feeling and I think I think two parts are really important for today's episode. The first part is for those people to feel more sane and more understood, but then I think it's for people who do feel like they're very much fit the Australians, they're a type and do feel like they belong and have always naturally felt like that to learn ways that we can perhaps help other people feel more included in whatever it is to be Australian. I mean, it's very funny because I know you had Palavishada on before this and I really want to push against the stereotype that all brown people in this country know each other but we actually do know each other. We went to school together and listening to her episode I realised like, I was like, oh yeah, we really had very similar stories. Much in the same way and I highly recommend everybody listen to her interview. Just always walked around having this knowing that I was different, that I wasn't the same as the people around me, particularly at school and that would come up in ways even from a very young age of being called, you know, prune coloured or, you know, as little girls would play Disney princesses and being told by your friends, okay, but you can't be the princess because you're brown and that was just like a matter of fact thing. You go, oh yeah, no, I'm not a princess. So I've got to be Eric from the little mermaid instead of Ariel. Were you accepting of that at the time or was that hurtful? I think both. I think in the moment you accept it and you know, that's the reality actually that you're living in. Like, they weren't people that looked like me on my screen or in pop culture and so it was just, it's kind of just roll with it. But I certainly like, that's probably the first state of like body image issues for me in a sense that, okay, well, I'm probably not pretty then or, you know, beautiful is blonde and white. So, you know, it starts very, very young, but then as you get older as well, I very much, like I've made an art of living the two worlds, you know, the code switching and I know Palo talked about that as well. And for people who didn't hear about code switching, can you just explain? Code switching is this phenomenon. Now it's academically researched, but basically if you have multiple identities, I guess, or you identify lots of different ways, particularly culturally, you'll switch from different modes. So you'll change the way you speak, you'll change the way you comport yourself, you will use different language or bring a different even kind of ideology to a table. So at home, you know, I'm going to carry myself really differently and some of that's quite natural and, you know, we all do that to a degree you adapt to the environment that you're in, but for people and I, you know, often say like hyphenated Aussies, you know, Aussie, Indian, Muslim or whatever it is, you're switching between two modes of your kind of self in ways that can be really confusing. And so I learnt to do that quite a bit like to a point where I feel like it was very, very unhealthy, but I didn't really know how else to survive either of those worlds. And in either never really feeling like it was a fully integrated me or a whole me because there was truth in both of those worlds for me. And when you say you didn't think it was healthy, what do you mean by that? A lot of kids like me, diaspora kids will know that a big part of what you do growing up is lighter parents about what you're doing, where you're going, who you are. And I feel like I did that quite a bit. So, sorry, what diaspora kids? diaspora is like people who live in other countries but are from somewhere else. So, like, you know, we're part of the Indian diaspora so we might be ethnically Indian but live in Australia. So I, you know, it got to unhealthy points where I couldn't really be my true self in either place. So I wasn't bringing kind of my Muslim faith and Indian culture to the table in real ways with my school friends are at uni and then at home I wasn't being really honest about who I was and what I wanted from life and what my aspirations were. So I can never really fully articulate but beyond that, like I don't think then I could actually truly dream or have purpose or aspire to things really because I just wasn't sure who I was at the end of the day. Oh, that's, it makes me, this is, in my experience is very, very different in school but the, the closest way I can relate to that feeling is being Jewish and not in, my family wasn't a very religious Jewish family but, um, but I went to an Anglican school and from, as far as I knew, there's no other Jewish people in the school and so I just didn't never told anyone. Especially when I was younger, getting to school, like, um, the start of a school year and making up all the presents that I got for Christmas, like just pretending that you had Christmas. Yeah, particularly in the young, when you're in primary school, a big thing about coming back to school, at least at the school, I was like, what did you get for Christmas? Like, is you spent the summer playing with the Christmas things and because I didn't want to say like, well, we don't do Christmas because then it invites a whole other realm of questions that I didn't want to have to answer. Yeah, and that's, that is part of the cost of not belonging or feeling exclusion or feeling like you can't be your full self. And, you know, that part that you say about, well, it, you know, I could tell them but then I have to answer a bunch of questions. Like, those are the tiny kind of denilinations and calculations you're making. Um, and over time, if that's how you're doing things all the time, um, that's quite exhausting. You know, academics will talk about it as leakage, leakage of energy and focus because you actually are navigating so much more. Um, so the more kind of excluded you feel, you're navigating all those tiny decisions. And it really resonates for me, you know, that was definitely my experience of how much do I explain, you know, I always get the question, you know, where are you from? And, you know, am I up for it today to be a bit facetious and sad or I shouldn't or do I just answer the question I know you're asking because I can't be bothered, you know, playing that game or making the point or, you know, asking about my hijab or whatever it is, like, you're constantly just assessing, okay, what are my energy levels today? How much are myself am I going to give? Um, just, sorry, just on that. What's the best way for someone to, for someone who's genuinely would like to know more about you? What's the best way to ask where you've, I mean, what's your background or what, how would someone phrase that? You just ask the question and you come from a place of authenticity and genuine respect. Um, I think asking, you know, what's your background is good language? Okay. What's your history where your family come from? Um, I think, you know, it's hard because you notice it when that's the first question someone asks you, you know, I think that's when, if it's, if it's part of a broader conversation where you're genuinely interested in who the other person is as a whole human being, great. And none of us don't want you to ask the question like if, if you're curious, of course, but I think it's, when that's clearly the first thing someone's clocked about you and that's the only thing they really care about asking you about, you know, and you feel it in your gut and you realize, okay, they're positioning you in their mind based on like where you're from. Yeah. So I had a, I was in a taxi in Sydney on Monday and the guy, he seemed to me to be Sri Lankan. I just, very used to Sri Lankan accent. And so I asked for his from and he said a roll his eyes and he said paramata and he didn't talk again for the rest of the trip. And I thought, ah, I feel so bad. It's really hard like I've done it. I do it all the time to people because I am genuinely interested in where they're from and I, I've done it to other Indian people because I go, I feel like you're Indian and I want to connect with you on this. And so I'm going to ask you where you're from and then, and they've given me a similar response. And so sometimes it's just wearing that. I often try to do it after a little bit of getting to know someone in other ways. And then once you've built a little bit of rapport, you can say, oh, and so, and what's your background? Sometimes I share my own background first and kind of indicate that I'm happy to talk about this in a safe way as well because I think the other thing is you don't know what's coming next. You don't know what assumption someone else is bringing to the table based on where you say you're from. I mean, the other thing for me is I wear a hijab so like I don't have to open my mouth before people have made a lot of assumptions about me that are often based on, you know, media representations or just whatever knowledge they have or don't have. So I'm also constantly navigating that. And so it's just kind of keeping in mind that those kinds of questions come with a lot of emotional work that people are just doing all the time and you're doing it so you'd have to do it but it's taxing and tiring. So you know a big core component of inclusive leadership is actually curiosity and just leaning into another person and tuning into them and building that muscle where you are taking in the whole person. So you mentioned that people make assumptions on the factoring a huge outboard so the assumption would be from his lemic faith. How would you describe your faith to people? Yeah, wow. Because I don't know, I have to say I don't know much about it. I really in 20 words or less would be great for that. I'm just floored that you ask me that. It's so nice. It's purpose for me. It's entirely wrapped up in why I exist. What I'm here to do, we have a tradition, it's kind of like a I guess a metaphor around you know be like the perfume seller because if you're around good smelling things and you're selling perfume it rubs off on other people and they leave your company in your presence smelling beautiful as well. And so that's that's what I feel like I'm meant to do on this earth is create that feeling for other people. Be that person where when they leave my company they feel better for it. And that's entirely come to me from faith. So your faith talks about being a really good person. A good human. Yeah. And doing good not perfection, not just the pursuit of it, trying, doing what you can, you know, even if it's the last hour on the last day or no earth, you know, plant a seed. So that you've done every possible thing you can to better the environment that you're in and the people around you and yourself. And I think that's what I love the most about my faith is that it is that guiding light for me and that orientation for me, it's given me that. And then it's given me a spiritual practice as well. So I think without, you know, I can have those thoughts, but without actually connecting to something higher above me. And in our faith, we put our heads on the ground during prayer and there's just something in that practice for me about offloading everything that I'm feeling into the earth through to something higher that really keeps me a lot of comfort. That is thank you so much for that. I find that very, very inspiring. And I also just a flashback to that when we met and I like it now makes so much sense why I walked away from meeting you. But genuinely buzzing and it makes sense. I remember thinking like she was amazing and it is that explains it to me and that is just so inspiring to live a life like that. I mean, what else is there really? Well, it comes back to the idea of belonging for me in that you think about Maslow's hierarchy. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I think most people understand you know, there's fundamental needs of kind of physical safety, food, water, shelter and then yet safety from actual kind of danger. And then the next rung up is love connection and belonging. And Maslow categorises those three as like our fundamental needs. And then you get to self-esteem and then self-actualisation. So when you think about belonging and the idea of connection and feeling like you've got somewhere to belong, it's actually built into who we are as humans. Evolutionarily, we kind of need that to exist and survive. And so for me, often I'll get brought into a workplace as a consultant to fix a problem or to address something and I end up talking about belonging and you can kind of feel sometimes if they're not coming from a place of authenticity that they're thinking, "Oh, this is just the nice fluffy stuff." And then I start to talk about the fact that no, this is actually the stuff of being alive and being human. That if we don't have this, we actually are kicking into like a stress response. And so for me, it's like outside of the fact that I feel like it's what I meant to do. Like it is what we're all meant to do is help each other feel like we belong and create that environment for each other. So I'm just doing the mess here. I mean, it had been 2000, you are 12 years old and you're watching Shane Robo to run around and get 35 touches a game. And you're enjoying your footy. I'm guessing life changed dramatically for you 2001 with 9/11 terror attacks in New York. Yeah, it really did. And it's bizarre how much that was a moment for me. Like I almost wish I always tell myself it wasn't, but like it was a turning point. I felt all kinds of exclusion and it was all bubbling away, but that was kind of like it brought it, kind of put it bang into the middle of the room. As a 13 year old? Yeah, it was, I remember it so clearly. I had this habit. I used to listen to Triple M radio because I wanted, in my family, didn't listen to music. I had no kind of cultural access to anything Aussie and especially Aussie bloke. And I went to a girl school my whole life. Like I had no, I wasn't allowed to talk to boys. So I just wanted to know what that culture was. So I used to listen to Triple J and Triple M as my kind of ways to learn. And no one rocks football, triple M radio, triple M radio. No, so it's kind of a wonder like I am because of those all those influences. And I'd left the radio on overnight. I'd fallen asleep. And so throughout the night, you know, when you just sort of half a sleep half awake, you kind of know what's going on, but you don't. I just kept hearing the news reports through my sleep. And then I woke up to the song. It's the end of the world as we know it. You know, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember. I could so clear in my mind going, what, what is going on? And then hearing the words, you know, America is under attack, ran out to my dad and he was already watching it on TV. And he was just silent. And then, you know, it felt like the world had just turned upside down and he dropped me off to school. And then just as I was getting out of the car, he said, just be careful today. Like it's going to be hard for a little while. Just, just be careful, be safe. And I had, I didn't really understand what he meant to the degree that he meant it. But I knew what he was saying was things have changed. And the spotlight's on us now. And it's going to be on us. And I still think it's so profound that he knew that that morning, that quickly and was sending his daughter off into the world, thinking, I don't know what she's going to cop now. And that is what happened. It was conversations. Okay. Now what is Islam? Like what is what is your fate? Like we kind of just went along with it. But now tell me, do you know the word she had? Do you use it at home? Is this how the kids at school ask you this? Kids at school, teachers. Everyone's emotions really heightened. And then, you know, when I wasn't at school, I would wear a hijab. Then, you know, the onslaught of hate speech and I remember having eggs thrown at me and my mom, we were on an airplane to America and my mom got asked to get off the plane and it was purely because her name was Hussein. There was like, there was just nothing else going on there. It was just we think we need to talk to you, extra security. But all of that aside, just really at a very young age internalising, okay, people don't want me here, people don't like me here. I'm different. And, you know, for an adolescent brain that really spins you off into another direction. And so at that time, the thing that gave me comfort and sucker and like a break was sport. When I started to talk sport, because I could, because I knew cricket, because thanks to my dad and my brother, because I started, you know, obsessing over the days, I could have a conversation about sport and I would just bring it up. I'll just bring it into conversation because I knew once I started to do that, the ice would melt. People would look me in the eye. It would be a suddenly different vibe and I very quickly learn, okay, this is my passport now. This is how I get through. I can do this. I'll be fine. And so that just kind of became my identity a bit. I just went, well, I'll be a sport girl. I'll be the days girl. I'll be the days girl, not Essin, because I grew up in Essin and my whole family went first and I'll be the days girl. A) because I had a crush on Russell Robertson, but B) I knew it was like the most radical choice I could make, you know, at the time, I was like Joseph Gutnick. It was a very Jewish culture. Yeah. I was living in the Western suburb. Joseph Gutnick was either CEO or president. Yeah, president. Yeah, of Melbourne, yeah. You know, Muslim Indian girl from the Western suburb is going for the kind of very. White bread, I guess in a bit of common team. Like I just, I just went, you know what? I'm gonna be that person that smashes the stereotype because it's probably the only way I know how to do this thing now, like walk around in the world. - When you have to use, as you said, using sport as your passport, and you've obviously still in love with sport, is it hard not to build a level of resentment towards it? - Very much so, and I think that's what the journey's been for me because it started as a, it was love, and it was useful. - Yeah. - And it then became my job and made it, turned it into my job. And then, and now it's kind of trying to find the actual truth and honesty in what it is I love about sport. And I feel like I'm starting to get there. And, but I, I've had to really renegotiate, okay, what's me in all of this? 'Cause so much of that behavior, I think, upon reflection was trying to fit in. I remember when I started at the Richembourg Football Club, I did a lot of trying to fit in. You know, I went out and bought a yellow hijab and like really tried to learn how to get by because I was just so desperate to belong. And it's starting to, like, I'm now unlearned that and found ways to actually do sport in the way I do sport. So my experience with the Richembourg Football Club under the leadership of Trent Couchin was a beautiful, group of young men who were very kind, very compassionate, very good at football. Do any players bring to mind people who really embrace this and really want it to lead and be a part of it? - Obviously, the one that really sticks out for me was really instrumental for me was Basha. - Basha Holy. - Basha Holy, you know, first of all, Muslim to play the game. Really paved the way for what it looked like to be your full authentic self in an environment like that. He doesn't drink alcohol. He's not going to clubs after the games. He's, you know, very kind of, he's just so Muslim. (laughs) To the point where if I was doing something a little bit not great as a Muslim, I'd be like, please don't tell Basha. (laughs) Just say, like, why I want to stay on the dead floor. Just don't tell Basha I'm here. (laughs) And, you know, he drinking is such a big part of our culture and footy culture. I remember my first week at the club, you know, someone put a beer can on my desk. I don't drink, is a Muslim as part of our faith that we don't drink. And I was like, oh my gosh, I just want to do my business. - It feels like a test or something. - It did really do. And having to then, you know, say, do the calculation in my mind, do I have this conversation? How Basha's way of doing it was to just get up in front of his team and explain who he was. And say, look, this is who I am. I'm not gonna, even after the premiership, you know, I love you all. It's not that I don't want to celebrate with you, but I'm gonna go and celebrate in the way I want to with my family at some restaurant. And I think they went out and had dinner, but it's not that I don't care about you. And he would, you know, every year, he would have them over for barbecues all the time. Like that's how he did connection. So he would just invite them into his world. And, you know, in turn, then we extended that to the staff by way of like Ramadan dinners, if does, Ramadan's, you know, the Holy month of fasting for us. And so we would get everybody together to break the fast. And it was kind of stuff like that that meant that we all just learned how to connect with each other's difference. That's, it's incredible. Bash is able to do that, but it also seems that Richmond had created a environment in which it was safe for him to do that. I'm curious to know for people listening what we can do in the everyday to try and create spaces where people feel more welcome. - Hmm. In belonging work, we sort of talk about micro cues of belonging. So like, there's so much around this stuff that you can do that's very kind of academic or strategic and the, you know, this process and policy and all of that work. There's also just then just how do we turn up into an environment and how do we carry ourselves and create belonging for ourselves and other people. And a beautiful example of that, from my life is also footy related. I'm so sorry to anyone listening who does what I suppose. - Another story about Russell Robinson. - Yep. (laughing) - This was pre, you know, before I was doing anything in sport before I was ever in the media or anything. I had just been at the Western Bulldogs Premiership win in 2016. And I was standing after the game on at Flint District station very late at night waiting for the last train, I think. And there was me and one other guy there, a few meters away. And then this kind of raucous group of young men came to the platform. You know, they're drunk, they're loud. You know what a woman feels like in that moment. I'm wearing my hijab. So I'm also thinking, okay, I'm, you know, anything could go down here. I've had experiences of having my hijab pulled after the footy on, you know, train platform. So I'm suddenly thinking, okay, I've, how do I get safe right now? And I look around and we're trying to meet people's eyes. And then the guy standing a few meters down the way looks at me and smiles, looks me in the eye and smiles. And I just go, okay, I've got, and he gives me just this kind of nod like I've got you. And I go, okay, this is good. And then I realize who it is. And I recognize the face. Please tell me as Russell Robinson, please. If it was, anyway, I won't go there. It was Dave Thornton, the comedian. - We saw him yesterday. - Yeah, right. - Yeah, it's so weird. He, I knew him because he was on every billboard at the time because he was doing radio. And I was like, I know that face. And I feel, it's like suddenly just went, great. I'm okay, I'm safe. His person's also just recognized me. Nobody else was meeting my eye. He did. And then I afterwards, it stayed with me that moment. It was such a small thing. - He just went into his day-ends. And I said, this would mean nothing to you. You won't even remember it. But this meant the world to me. And I have to tell you. And he really responded and was like, no, I totally remember that. Of course I do. Great. And then he was like, come to my show. So then I went to his show and he ended up doing- - He for it? Like definitely by, okay. Just lonely night. (laughing) - He did a little bit about it in his show that night to kind of give a little nod to me. And then we've just stayed in touch ever since. And now he's a mate that I talk to all the time. And like just from the just a tiny moment of connection. And like that couldn't have happened. We could have not gone on to be friends. But what he gave me in that moment was- - That was the important bit. - Was the totally the important bit and that cue of, yeah, you're here. We're here. We share this moment and this space. And I've got you. And in belonging work, you talk about belonging as feeling accepted, as seen as included, but also trusting that the tribe is gonna protect you. When you need it, the tribe is gonna protect you. And even in that small moment, he gave me that. - So a big part of anyone's experience is trying to figure out who they are. And when so much of your experience is trying to belong and that becomes the priority, how does that affect, if at all, you try to figure out who you are at your core? - It's all, there's some really formative experiences that have shaped that and in kind of damaging ways too, as well as constructive ways. I sort of talked about, you know, treading two different worlds and holding all the kind of parts of my identity together. And I feel like a lot of the work of that has been trying to kind of integrate those two worlds. When you ask that question, like I think of all the ways I wasn't able to do that in the moments in my life where that just didn't come together for me. And I guess the big, very formative and full on experience around that for me was in terms of love and getting married. And in our faith, we have arranged marriages. I often like to call it facilitated marriages because in my culture and in my family, specifically, like I think a lot of people, when they hear a range marriage, they think forced marriage, which is a very different thing. A range marriage is, there's no kind of force in it. It's literally just like, you know, you think about Bridgetan or talking about that before, of Mike. You know, the kind of traditional ways that people used to couple is still a very big part of the way people in my culture, particularly in my faith partner. And in my family, that was very much around, we let our networks know that we've got a child of marriageable age and we're looking for a partner for them. And then your networks come back with, well, there's this candidate and there's this candidate. And then you sift through and you kind of go, OK, this one looks alright. Like it's a bit like getting a job. - Ready, go, throw a process. and then you decide and all parties agree that they want to proceed. And the idea of love, you know, faith is something that blossoms after marriage. And there's not a concept of dating really. So it was just a very different paradigm, like completely, like worlds apart. And so I'm growing up and I'm, you know, I love pop culture. I'm looking for all my connection to my non-Indian Muslim peers through TV and film and sport. And so I'm, you know, I love a rom-com. I'm absorbing all kinds of music and film and television. I'm also living in this world with the expectation and the norm is that I'll have an arranged marriage. So I live with these two ideas in my mind and I gravitate to one, you know, I love the idea of falling in love, being proposed to. But it's never gonna happen for me. I don't assume it's gonna happen for me and that's fine. I just, it's just not my life. And so when it came time for me to get married, I went through that process. And my parents growing up didn't, you know, outright say you only marry and Muslim Indian, but they really, like it was just unspoken, that's what happened. And I think part of that was, we wanna protect your sense of belonging because we know you don't belong out there. So when you create family for yourself, we don't wanna set you up to fail in that way. We wanna make sure that you feel like you belong and you've got a place to belong in your love and in your marriage. And we all kind of understood it in those terms. I think where it went wrong for me was me not being able to voice the fact that I don't think, I was, I don't think India or an Indian sensibility was where I belonged either. So I was in this space where I felt like a really Aussie kid, but I also felt like a really Muslim Indian kid. And I didn't know where to place myself. And like, you know, in the way that when you finish year 12 and people ask you, what are you gonna do feels like a really big decision? Of course, getting married and who you married is a huge decision. Like it felt like I had to make a choice. Not just about who I was, but who I was gonna decide to be ultimately, 'cause I'd carried these two worlds for so long. And to me, it was like, well, I have to choose family, like I can't not choose family and faith. So I guess I have to let go of this other side of myself and hopefully the rest of it evolves. My siblings all did the same thing. They have very happy marriages. But for me, it just didn't work. And so I was engaged to be married to a man from India. That was how my siblings had also done it. I met him, we chatted, but not very much. And I just, when I look back, I don't think I had a voice. I don't think I knew myself well enough. Or I knew it, but I couldn't articulate it. I didn't have the courage to say, no, this isn't for me. How old were you when this happened? I had two engagements. So I had one engagement at 18. And that didn't work very quickly for a lot of different reasons. And then the second one, I was 20. And in that time, I was studying at uni. And then I was going to India to meet with this guy. Had been arranged through my family. At the same time that I met my partner, Michael at uni. Who couldn't have been more than nightmare that my parents would never have. This hairy of. Sounds good so far. Trapped farmer from Alexandria in rural Victoria. Drank and smoked and was in my film studies class in film production class. And like, could it give a shit about anything? It was staunchly atheist. And we just clicked. Like we just hung out and clicked. And he asked me questions about my faith. And we debated faith. Like we had arguments about it. And I would say things to him like, but how do you know? Like, you know, I thought he was really arrogant because he was so lucky. There's no God, you're stupid. And so like it just something just happened chemically for us. Who's he going for? He varics for the day. Well, they were something. And there was one common group. And all my friends there. The arranged marriage could have just been for the list of members, really. Yeah, that was where my parents were rugging, exactly. And what I discovered was this guy who on paper was so not for me, fundamentally like we clicked on a values level, we clicked. You know, we had shared, a shared language. - Shed merch. - Shed merch. We could talk about, you know, like 1A2 and he was in the offspring video. Like it was just, you know, those are all, oh, I can't remember. He'll tell you I'll get him to go. I just remember him telling me and I was meant to be impressed. - The fly for a fly fisherman. Oh, good. - Very good. - Very good. - That's very good. - It's okay. - We could no run up. (laughing) - And so it sort of dawned on me, okay, culturally we are very similar and we have more in common than I do with this guy that I'm meant to be marrying. Long story short and it is a very long story that I one day write and make into a Hollywood musical. (laughing) My parents, you know, we just, we just clearly liked each other but I was very clear with him, like it's just not gonna happen, sorry. But, you know, feelings are feelings and they evolved but my parents just weren't, it wasn't gonna happen. And whenever I tell this story and I rarely do because I feel like it really paints my parents in a terrible light, I don't think that about them. They were doing what they thought was best for me and what they knew was right and what felt protective for them. And I'm really proud of them 'cause they've evolved quite a bit through this experience and now they're the parents and the elders in the community that other people come to saying my kids and love with. - I tried to figure out what to do. (laughing) - What do we do? But anyway, I ended up having the arranged marriage because it just didn't feel like there was any other option. And it really told me apart, it was two years of-- - Hang on, so I've got the order wrong. So you admit the triathlete shaman but you end up having to marry someone else? - Yeah. - Okay. - And having to marry again, like I consented to it, but in a way that I don't know that I was comfortable with really. Which is, it's a really hard, like it's still something that we don't really talk about in my family because I think everyone knows, yeah, that was a real mess up over time for everybody. And what I learned was I wasn't honest back to kind of hiding who you are, living in two different worlds, not being honest with your family and yourself about who you are, it all led to this. And I couldn't actually suddenly say, yeah, no, this isn't who I am. - It would have been a huge act of rebellion. - Huge, yeah. And I just didn't have the guts at the time to do it or wasn't even sure of myself that I was right, you know? I thought maybe I'm just being a silly 20 year old and all the wisdom that's ever been imparted and passed down to me is right. I thought I held trust that. And it was right for all my siblings and everybody else in my family, but what I had to learn really painfully was that, no, no, I know myself. And I have to listen to that voice inside me when it comes up. You know, my parents were trying to imprint onto me. This is your identity. This is how you belong and how you do Indian Muslim Australian. And I've had to really learn, no, only I can decide that actually. And there's a way that I now do that. They're really cool with and happy and proud of. And I put more importantly, I'm proud of, but that's taken a long time. Eventually I didn't, you know, my marriage ended and within two or three months, I was with my partner Michael. We bumped into each other at RMIT Uni and in the time that I'd been married, he started to look into Islam and spirituality and actually found his place of belonging in it. Oh, wow. And had converted to Islam unbeknownst to me. And unbeknownst to my, like just totally separate, we just went into a different path. Wow. So he did just, hoping that you might-- No, like knowing that I was never going to enter his life again or thinking that that was never going to happen. In my stromantic thing, I remember. It has to be a movie. It's like it now. And yeah, he'd come from a culture of-- masking his feelings and dumbing down his spark through alcohol and drugs and not really feeling purposeful to then finding purpose and meaning and a way of living life that felt right for him and felt like him. He's very environmentally conscious and he found that in the faith, the idea of being a custodian on the land and so then when we found each other again, I just, you know, he asked me how married life was and I couldn't get it out faster than I was of married anymore. And then when he said, I said, you've got a beard, it looks really Muslim and he's said, yeah, I've grown up because I've converted to Islam and that was it for me. I was like, I'm not surprised. Let's get married. It was like hang on. Yeah, I was not cool about it at all. He was like, I don't know. Like, what have you been for two years? Like, who are you now? And I'd started wearing the hijab full time. That's what was going on in my head. Anyway, he said, I'm not we're not going to make the same mistake. I'm going to call your parents. I'm going to get to know them and they used to go and hang out at high point in the book. I just have chat. Awesome. What did you say in the evening about that? They are. Look, they weren't thrilled, but by that point, they felt they realized, yeah, we don't know anything about this kid or she knows more than we do about who she should be with. We only want to see her happy. If this is him, then go for it. They just took a step back and went, we tried it our way and it's clearly not for you. You know what you're doing. It took them a while. At first, they couldn't even understand his really thick, Aussie accent. He's got that beautiful country drool. My dad was just like, what is he saying? Don't know what you're saying. It's an endless comedy for me to watch the miscommunication. Now they love him. They constantly come over and fix things for us and they say him, no joke, they say him and speak to him more than they do me. That's actually for me the real love story. Like between the three of them. What a story. Yeah, unbelievable. So they would go to high point without you there and send the food court. They didn't tell me because they didn't want me to get my hopes up in case they wasn't going to work for some reason. So every Sunday, they'd be like, we're going to high five. I was like, all right, we'll all come to you. They were like, Adam and I couldn't come with them and it was just getting really weird and I was like, what is going on? Like, why don't you hang out with me? And they still, like, he still came over to the house. We still went through the process. You know, I served him tea and he just was like, this is ridiculous. And my favorite moment that day when he kind of came to make it official served him tea and then he got up and put the dishes away and cleaned the dishes and my mum just lost her mind. She was like, no, you're not meant to, like, you're the blind. It's very traditional culture. You don't wash up. And now she tells all of her friends, like, what a great guy is because he does the washing. If like screenwriters and film producers aren't like forwarding this episode right now to people with money, something's wrong. There's an interesting bit in there where you talk about not having the guts to, but to layer it onto what you're talking about, the higher I keep needs. If you didn't know yourself and didn't feel like you could belong, you couldn't have the self-esteem to say this is what I need. No. Exactly. Exactly. And it's, I'm just feeling everything you just said in my body. Like, it's everything. I don't even know how else to explain that. Without actually claiming all of that for myself. Like, I actually just can't take the next step and feel good about who I am and have the confidence to advocate for myself, let alone for anybody else, which I'm so often asked to do. And now, you know, as a mother, it just feels like I have to be able to do that for my daughter. So if I don't find and cultivate belonging, continue to for myself, I just can't give that to her and she of course needs it. How old are you, daughter? She's nine now, going on 19. Yeah. Wow. This is probably going to be another three-hour potential. We're not aware of where I'm going here, but I'll try and give it short because I'm interested to know how because being a becoming a parent change may completely, I did it have much of an effect on new at all. Yeah, it just kind of opened me up to a world of a lot of pain, frankly, I'm an angst, but also and feeling the risks in life more, which is something that I'm really resentful of because I watched my friends also go through motherhood and feel all of that, not that people don't feel that, but they were feeling it in a very different way. I was worried about what the world was going to tell her about who she is and was she going to go through the things I went through and then, you know, how on earth do I protect her from that? And then Adam Goods was getting booed for a season and you know, champion Sydney Swan's AFL player and I just remember thinking, no, like I can't have, I can't have brought a kid into this world and this be the world that she's come into and I have to do something about it. Like I just quit my job and I beeline to the industry, the sports industry because I just, it was like desperation. Yeah, that was the tipping point. Oh my god. It just was, it kept me up at night in a way that I just don't really understand still, but I just went, I can't, I can't live with this because of her. And so if I'm not at least trying to make it better, I can't live with myself. I like it just was that kind of feeling. Look about purpose. Yeah, wow. She's on my head because I nominated, she'll know Contas for a straightover. What if he did, you do two nominations? I'm not sure. I think so. Sorry, can't you? It's my afternoon. I shouldn't take that off. What a hero. I'll try not to get done with your guts. You're the real Australian. Alright, yeah. Don't we have an nominations? You're getting out. So, to do let us know when you do something else good. Yeah. Make sure. No, you ask about motherhood and I know there's quite a heavy story, but um, you know, that and that watching other people like I crystallized in my mind the day that my daughter was born because like I said, my partner's fiscine is white Aussie, Anglicale chick, and when she was born and in the lead up, there was so many comments around what color she might be. Oh, well, even just well meaning as well, but you know, I wouldn't have been great if she had your brown skin, but he's blue eyes and I wonder if she's going to what kind of mix she's going to be. There's so much focus on her color and I just used to think, God, I hope, like I don't, I don't know what that's going to mean for her. And then when she was born, I, I clocked her color which was quite fair and I breathed a sigh of relief. Oh, well. And then immediately heartbreak that that was my response. And it was all about, I think, God, you're not going to go through the things that I've gone through. Your life's going to be easier. Thank God. And I just hated myself in that moment, um, for feeling that way that that's what motherhood meant in that moment to me. Um, you know, then two or three days later, you know, experienced racism in the hospital, um, with some one of the lactation nurses and it just, I was so angry and resentful that this little baby was already getting racism and experiencing exclusion and she doesn't even know. Yeah. Um, so it's just, you know, I don't know any parent that goes through that and doesn't go, well, I have to fix this. Like, that's just, it's like the most parent thing you can do. Yeah, just to, I hope this isn't jumping back too far, but I wanted to ask you something about working with workplaces. I imagine there are a lot of people who run businesses or in positions to be able to affect change, uh, leaders in, in businesses who go, all this is good, but it's going to cost a lot of money. Um, and there'd be a pushback. There are a barrier to break through. I've like, Why is this worth the money? What do you say to, because I'm sure it's come up to many times? How do you combat that attitude? Or what do you say to, I guess, not combat that's probably the wrong word, but to navigate and educate around that attitude? - It's the first thing that comes up to be honest. Or everyone's on board until it's like, okay, now you need to resource this work. So when I go into a workplace, I often spend a lot of time illuminating the kind of business case for this work, which is challenging in and of itself, because for me, it's not why I do it. It works, it creates, it makes money for organizations. And you know, I always say, there's a reason why high performance sport is using this. It's not, it's not 'cause it's just like, yeah, I mean, it does make them feel good, but they're big businesses. They need to win. It's working. So that's why they're investing in it. So I often start there, but the stats are pretty clear. You know, when you get culture right and team environments right, you're minimizing risk. People are speaking up more because it's an environment where they feel like they can say, hey, that doesn't sound right or that feels wrong or that looks dangerous. Or I don't feel good right now. They're taking less sick days. You're also getting more out of people. You know, like if you stay with the high performance elite environment, they're all pretty talented people. They're all very skilled. You're trying to get that extra edge out of them to differentiate between all the other really talented athletes. This kind of stuff, when you feel good and you feel your best self or you feel like you can thrive, you're going to perform at your peak. And there's a, you know, there's chemical stuff around that too. When we feel that sense of belonging, you know, think back to Maslow's hierarchy, that that's biological evolutionary stuff going on. In our body, there's like that concoction of hormones that are released. They're the serotonin and the dopamine. And all of that kicks into gear when, equally when you feel excluded, all of the stress hormones come to play. So it's also about getting the best out of your people. And then, you know, from a business point of view, it's like more innovation, you know, you think about diversity of thought and people bringing all of their ideas to a table or a writer's room, you know, and you've got that environment where people can just chuck what they want to into the mix. You're going to get the best outcome. So it actually shows and gives you business bottom line effects. And once people see that and they see the numbers, that I need anymore, that's interesting. I think that, that, that sort of the innovation side, that innovation point that you made, it's, it's so true because it's like in a, in any sort of creative environment, at both ends of the spectrum, where, you know, at one end of the spectrum, you feel incredibly supported. And when you feel supported, you're way more likely to take a risk. Because you know that if you fail, it'll be fine. Or if you're, you know, whereas if you're in an environment that doesn't feel supportive and it maybe feels a little bit more competitive, you way less likely to take any risks. And if you're not taking any risks, there's nothing's going to innovate. There's going to be no interesting ideas in a TV writers room. You're going to end up with a pretty vanilla show, probably. I think there's obviously the, you're upset. The reason why I didn't want to ask the question is because I totally agree with, and it seems it's so self-evident in the way you work, that money is not the point. It's the, it's being able to allow people to live more, I guess, truthful and enrich lives every day. But bringing back what you spoke about earlier on with the, I guess the sort of the weight of code switching, the sort of cognitive weight, emotional weight, all the weights. And then layering that with the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you've got people working for you in your life who are having to code switch and don't feel like it's into belonging, you barely, like just for being the right thing to do, to allow this person to live a life, to be blessed to live a life that, if you are the culturally dominant person, get to live, from the right thing to do, it seems a no-brainer. But also exactly what you said, you're only getting a tiny percent of that person's capability every day. So it just, no-brainer on many levels. Yeah, it's a lot of the grief I have when I reflect on my own career and life. And also what I would love to be doing as well. I guess the theory around it is, when you're feeling excluded, you've zero in on that exclusion and you orient your life around it. And I feel that in my own career and life. I heard that in Palaviz interview as well. She talked about spending so much time and energy, trying to create belonging for other people, because she wasn't experiencing it. Very similar story for me. And just there's so much grief around realizing how much of your life you've spent not living to your capacity and capability and not actually giving the gifts that you're meant to to the world. I actually have a lot of sadness. Like, you know, there's a version of me that's, you know, hosting some silly morning TV show and breakfast radio and being delightful on camera or something. Like, I would love to do that. But that, you know, that wasn't the work that I kind of have ended up doing and need to do for myself. I'd never considered that before, but it could be when people. Am I being extremely naive here and thinking that some people might not be aware of how much of a weight this is putting on them? As a person of minority of whatever or background that isn't the majority. A lot of people might have no awareness of how much weight this is to carry. I think so. I think a lot of people walk around not realizing how inhibited they might actually be or have never really had permission to be their full selves. They don't really know what that environment looks or feels like. I still feel like that. I think, you know, it's only been in the last few years where I've really found what it means even just to belong to myself and claim that for myself. Because I think a lot of people claim your identity for you or push a version of belonging onto you and you go with it. And that's. I'm still grappling with that and trying to work through. Who is it that I actually am? And where do I actually belong and who are with? And yeah, I think there are a lot of people. And I'm starting to recognise it in people as well. Sometimes you can just see something's not quite right or they're struggling with the way their life is and they're missing that piece, that step towards self-actualisation. Yeah. Well, can I ask about listening? Yeah. It's two parts of this. But I found myself getting very emotional when you're talking about that experience from the train platform and it hit me a lot harder than I expected it to. And I've been trying to work out why. And I think it's because I feel that a man's amount of. I don't know, if it's guilt for not getting out of my own head sometimes and not being able to just realise what everyone else is having to navigate every day, things that I don't have to think about. And then often the next step when you realise, "Oh, shit, I'm missing something here." And the other part of that was when I lived in Bangladesh for a year and my housemate there was the Gerneau, Jan Fran, who made it. And I remember like a week in of living with her. She was like, "We're having a few drinks and she was like, 'You do know you're like the minority in the world.' And I was like, 'Honestly, to this point in my life, I didn't know that.' Like it hadn't even occurred to me that me as like a white guy who went to a private school in Melbourne was like, 'By so far the tiniest minority in the world.' I think I was a decent human being who was pretty empathetic and kind to people would have hadn't even occurred to me. We often have moments in our lives where we get this realisation of, "Oh, shit, I'm not." People have very different lives to me and live very differently. But then the next step of actually listening and moving to the next step of understanding and curiosity, I think, is never explained. And not that it's, yeah, it's never explained, not that it's on other people to explain it to me how to do it, but I think a lot of people miss the next step. And it's the next step that I'd like to be better at. Yeah, you're right. And it is a muscle, I think. And a lot of the work that I do is around, how do you be curious in a respectful way? What does listening really look like? And you're right, you'll be surprised how little we do know how to do those things, even though they seem so basic. I think, again, it's sort of, why is such a big question and word in my mind and in my life? Because I think once you understand why you're doing something, you do it then purposefully and with excellence and you try to do it in the best way you can. So I often say, you know, understand why you're having a particular conversation. And every meeting you go into, you know, just have a moment of reflection around. What am I here to do? Like that's just good practice. anyway. But building that muscle of kind of self awareness, I think is a really big piece of this work. And being able to kind of go, okay, I come to this with my set of baggage and world view, but that's, I don't know anything about the other person and where they're coming from. So I don't need to assume any of that. I just need to ask, do you agree? This is how I say this. Do you agree or do you see it differently? How do you see whatever it is? But that's a mindset and that's something that you just have to slowly cultivate. And it's, it's something that once you kind of become conscious to, you can't switch off or you can't unsee. I don't know if that's been your experience. You go after that conversation with Jen. Absolutely. Yeah. It has been, but I also then I do feel pangs of guilt when I miss things. I think it reminds, part of it reminds me to something you've spoken about a lot, you, which is that thing of kindness where you do something kind, the other person benefits, but so do you. I feel like when you're really listening, that's the experience. And you know, you're really doing it right when you feel that in the room between it. I think it's Stephen Covey who says that we need to listen to understand, not listen to respond. Like so often we're listening to work out what we should say back. But it's we should be listening to understand. Yeah. And and I just want to pick up on guilt as well because that comes up a lot in my work. A lot of actually what I wait into is often guilt that people are carrying around privilege. Particularly in this country, a lot of us have a lot of privilege. And I often find myself thinking about it and saying like we don't choose privilege as much as we choose disadvantage. You know, we're all born with what we're born with. And it's what you do with that. But also kind of this is not a science, it's an art I think and it's about holding it lightly. And I can fall into cycles of self-legilation because I didn't do enough for a certain person or you know, I didn't speak up loudly enough for this issue. It's just about having that grace for yourself and going, okay, at any given point I'm doing the best I can, I think we've really lost that ability to do that for ourselves and other people. And so I think guilt is just such a inhibiting feeling because it just, you know, my measure now is, okay, can I get back up again and try again the next time this comes around? Okay, if I didn't do it in that moment, reflect on it, think about what I want to do better next time and then try again. Yeah. And I think you're so right that the why and the intention really does shine through, I think. And it's sort of, there's like a layer of, if I'm so, if I feel so worried that what I'm doing is like if I'm laced with guilt and it prohibits me from being curious, then there's also, and not to add more guilt to it, but there's actually something kind of in problematic under that in that it implies that the person speaking to, it can't see the intention behind me. It's kind of belittling their agency to understand where I'm coming from and that I'll make mistakes just like anyone else. Exactly. Very well said. It comes up a lot, a lot of what I deal with is kind of socio-political issues. Now feels like, you know, the hardest time to exist when it comes to that and any step you're taking any direction feels fraught. And so for me, it is always about coming back to purpose and like impact. Like what do I actually want to see change? Because we can often strive for perfection in this work too and that's also really damaging and can then make us kind of freeze. And so I often say to people when you get into sometimes debates that can get really academic, I think yeah, but I know what it's like to experience racism and I don't want other people to feel like that. Because I think a lot of what happens is we're just turning a power dynamic on its head and still oppressing other people and still treating people the way we were treated. And it just, you know, I find myself saying no, no, no, like we know what that feels like. Let's not do that to other people. Let's actually be better than that. And when you when you've been through it, you don't care about the rest of it. You just want it to be better. Like, you know, when you, something saw in your body, you don't care about anything. You just want to fix it. You want it to be fixed. And so I think it's like that clarity of purpose that kind of helps me wade through all of that. Beautiful, beautiful. I know this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. So wonderful conversation. Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if the next time we have you on, we're reading your bio and the last line is and she's now currently the host of today or she's now all working at Melbourne for book club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Call me. I'd really like to say that. I've been breakfast radio host or something like that. It wouldn't surprise me at all. You certainly spoke at the start about having the effect of making people smell nice. You made us smell much better. I think you're a wonderful presence and it's been such a pleasure to chat to you this morning. Thank you so much to join us. Well, thanks so much for lecturing us in your happy new connection. Thank you for having me and I promise I won't damn slide anymore. Just text just text. Yeah. That's going to become a great day. Just come over. Great. Thanks for having me. Thank you. The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Vain Carlinburg, Brian Shelton and Josh van Carlinburg. Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer Bella North East. This episode is edited by George Martin. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general nature. But if you're struggling, please see a health care professional or call Lifeline on 13/11/14.