Radar - by nexxworks: Is China’s next tech miracle here? Meta’s AI bet, TikTok twists & Musk’s “cash thing”

This is Radar by Nexworks. I'm your host, Stephen van Belegam, and every month my friends at Nexworks and I bring you the latest developments in technology, business, and everything related to innovation. Hi everyone, welcome to a new episode of our monthly podcast Radar supported by Nexworks. As always, I am here with Pascal Kuppens, hello Pascal. Hi Stephen, great to be here. And with Peter Hinsen, hello Peter. Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, very happy to be here, Stephen. Good to see you, good to see you. Pascal, happy new year, my friends. It's Chinese new year. How are you celebrating it? Well, I've been invited to many, many events from anybody related to China in Belgium. So celebrating, I think, four or five times this month. It's on the 17th of February. And this is the fire horse this year. So it's going to be a promising year. Last year was kind of like, let's wait it out and see what happens. And this year they're going to go full speed ahead. So there's a lot that I can expect to happen specifically in March. With the two sessions where the next five year plan will be completely rolled out. Meaning what China plans for the next five year, that will be said in a couple of weeks from now. Do you think you will need to update your book? Well, I always have to update my book. But that's just when you're dealing with China, you're always behind the curve because everything happens faster than you expect. But I think a lot of predictions that I made in the book, which I started writing more than a year ago, actually already have come out. So if that continues, I'm going to have a great year. And how does it work celebrating Chinese new years? Is it like celebrating Belgian new year? Or is it completely different? The evenings and the parties that you have? Well, it's more a family thing. It's like Christmas in Europe where people go back to their families. I read just this week, they're expecting 1.4 billion travel tickets. So that's as many as there are people in China. Everyone will. Well, but they have to go back. So it's half of the population is actually traveling to or from their family to someone else. So that's going to be crazy. And then it gets celebrated within the family with a lot of food, of course, Chinese. And a lot of fun. And so that's the whole country for a couple of weeks is kind of closed just to celebrate that. Is it also like New Year's Eve and New Year's Day? And is it also with a countdown and everything? Is that comparable? Yes, and there's a gala, which last year I don't know if you remember we talked about it. With the dancing robot. Humanized robots. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what this year will be. We'll see. But whatever it will be, it will be a big boost for that industry. Okay. Fantastic. And you guys are going back to China in a few months. Is that right? I'm going in May. I think Peter is going in July. So I'm going to be moderating and hosting a tour in the third week of May. It's going to be fantastic. Of course, the tour is called after my book, China's next miracle. So all the secrets I have made my book and all the people who've read it will be able to see it in life in Beijing, in Hangzhou, in Shanghai. Lots of cool stuff coming up. So I'm looking forward to that tour. And are there still available seats for that tour? Well, not too many, I think. But there are still a handful, I think. So it's probably now or never to join me to China in May. Okay. And you, Peter? Well, we're doing a youth tour to China. So we've done the YouTube a couple of times where we take a parent and one of their kids or a number of their kids to a special place. We've done that to Boston, we've done that to London, we've done that to San Francisco looking at Silicon Valley. And now we're going to China. And it's always really nice because I think we do a lot of these events where we take people that are executives or they're working in industries that we take into these places and we know what that does. But we always love the combination when it's father and a child. It's mother and a child. And then you figure out what is going to be the reaction of that next generation. So we're aiming typically for youngsters, so 17 plus, 17 to 25 to join with one of their parents. And I'm going to be doing that in the beginning of July. Very much looking forward to that. Cool. And Pascal, any big news from China that we can kick our episode off with? Yeah, there's huge news that nobody talks about. So there's actually no news, meaning that there's two things that happened in January. Which we've been talking about for a long time, but suddenly there's complete science. And one is the acquisition of Manus by Meta. And the other one is the TikTok deal, which is completed. And it's surprising that the media is not picking up on this because this is really something big. I mean, Manus for one way, this is of course in the US should be a big news because Meta suddenly has an agent which they've paid about $2 billion for. Which is just so you know, about four to five times the valuation that Manus had just before the acquisition. So it's really a big change, but Beijing still needs to investigate if they want to let it go. I have a question on that. Because I mean, I remember we were talking about Manus as an agentic platform. It was, I think, one of those things that, after DeepSeek in 2025 was the biggest name that came out of Asia because DeepSeek was a competitor to a regular chatbot. Manus was an agentic platform, but I remember we've been talking about this in the podcast and we've always said, oh, it's a Chinese example. Now more and more, I see, oh, no, no, it's a Singaporean company. So what is it? Is it a Singapore company? Is it a Chinese company? Well, it's a perfect question because that's really the key of this whole story is the fact that Manus decided in 2025. So last year about, before the summer, to relocate to Singapore. And so Chinese companies that relocate to Singapore, TikTok did the same. They were relocated to Singapore in order to go global. The whole idea here is valuation. In China, because of the competition and everything like that, I mean, there's so much fight and the valuation is relatively low. Imagine, Manus being set, and we talked about it, being the number one in China, one of the number one agents in China, valued half a billion dollars compared to OpenAI, 500 billion or more. I mean, this is like a thousand times difference in valuation of this company. So the Chinese decide, if we want to really race capital or we want to do an exit, we have to go to Singapore. The problem is that the Chinese government needs to ratify and need to agree on that. And as we've seen with TikTok, and then sometimes when you are outside of the China realm, they force you to sell it out. So it's very complicated. So right now, I feel Singapore has been the bridge between the US and China in terms of capital raising and also getting it global. Or the alternative is staying in China and becoming the number one in China. And then you have all the support on a different way. But that's fading away. Yeah, the funny thing about Manus is that, you know, I think Manus announced it just before the end of the year. And it seemed like Mark Zuckerberg was going through his drawers and said, "Oh, there's two billion." Hey, let's buy this agentic platform. It seems like he had a little bit of spare change left, right? Yeah, but I also think, I mean, he spent 14 billion on Alexander Wang or before. So he, and then he spent 19 billion on WhatsApp. But the interesting is, I mean, Manus is just a platform that's just starting for a year and something. So it's a lot of money for this one thing, but they needed this in their AI offering. I think it's big news also because China's losing something in a way if they give it away. But also because Metta is now part of the team in the agent direction. So big news on that side. So do you think that there's a chance that this is going to be as much of a soap opera as the TikTok story? Because TikTok, I mean, the whole sale of TikTok has been negotiated, renegotiated for more than a year and a half now, right? I mean, do you think Manus is going to go the same way as TikTok? No, and I think Chinese government will ultimately agree on it. But I mean, I cannot predict that exactly. But they're probably going to put it or might put it part of a geopolitical trade deal or whatever. I mean, that's what they did with TikTok. And this is what I find so fascinating with TikTok is that ultimately for two years we've been talking about TikTok is going to get banned. It's not it's going to go dark and all these things. And then suddenly oracle by 15% or of TikTok, silver, lake, by another 15. There's a United Arab Emirates who buys another 15. I mean, the valuation is $14 billion. They spend about two billion, just the same as Mark Zuckerberg, on getting part of TikTok. But reality is that this hasn't changed anything because the algorithm is still owned by bydans. The advertisement engine is still run by bydans and the upgrade still needs to be done by bydans. And what bydans sold the owner of TikTok is basically about 17% of the whole TikTok, meaning the US market, because the rest of the world is still run by bydans. And even if you look at the US, it's quite fascinating to see that legally, actually, this should be banned because the operation is now happening by oracle, but it's not changed in ownership completely on the algorithms and the ads. But Trump said it's okay. So if Trump says it's okay, I mean, we should argue, right? So for two years or at least one and a half years, being a soap opera like crazy and now total silence. And that's what I find the interesting fact. I mean, your- Absolutely right, it's been an incredible soap opera. What has always puzzled me tremendously in this entire deal is that when TikTok US, and we're talking about what, 170 million users, - Yeah, investors, yeah. - With an average user time per day of more than 90 minutes, I mean, why is it only sold for 14 billion? 'Cause that looks like-- - Well, they-- - Dirt cheap, I mean 170 million. - No. - That's like, it's like the number one media platform in the US with the demographics that everybody wants to talk to, we spend more than an hour and a half every single day on your platform, only 14 billion, I mean, the money doesn't make sense. - Well, it does in a way that this explains exactly a structure. So they've only sold off almost 20% of the shares, but it's also the whole world outside of the US is not part of the deal. The algorithm is not part of the deal. The advertise, so the only thing they got, it's like a car that they now can drive, but the car is still completely owned by Biden's. And so most, I mean, let's not forget, Biden's has one billion users, only 170 million are in the US. So most of them are in China, most of them are outside, and indeed, if you look at the whole Biden's, we're talking about a hundred to 200 billion dollar in valuation. So this is the answer, and Biden still has 20%, 19.9% of the US shares. So they didn't sell off everything, and that's basically the answer why the valuation is so low. And it was forced, of course, as part of the deal. I mean, there was no second alternative. It was either this or go dark at one point, and Trump made it just look like it's all done, but this interesting thing is he didn't make any noise about it. And the fact that nobody makes noise about it means that basically it's not legal. That's what it is. I think it's fascinating that Oracle is involved. I mean, Oracle is one of those companies that is stretching itself really thin. I mean, all the way from doing the infrastructure deals with OpenAI and Sam Altman to, you know, now the TikTok story, I mean, it seems like Larry Ellison in his final chapter of life wants to go out with a bang, that's very clear. Or is it doing Trump a favor by just investing a little bit? I mean, two billion is not that much for Oracle? I think so. I think it's very clear that the ownership of the Chinese have just switched to ownership of Trump's friends. And now it's a Trump friendship or circle that now owns more than the Chinese do. And the thing that makes him happy and that also makes them happy. And so they can help each other out. But for Oracle, we'll be interesting to see how they will manage and upgrade because ultimately, they still need the Chinese, which I think is funny. But anyway, yeah, that's my story. All right. Well, let's come back to Europe. Peter and Fran say they decided that the French government has to fade out the usage of Zoom and Teams in a broader context of creating our own technology here in Europe. What's your view on that decision? You think that smart? You think that we're going to see more of that? Or how do you look at it? Well, it's a big hype now. I mean, there is-- I do a lot of work, as you know, with the tech players. And certainly with the US big tech, there's a major concern that Europe is now completely turning into a US hostile environment. It seems to be like there is a polarization happening also in that world of technology. And Europe starts to understand that they are incredibly weak in terms of the technology stack. There's more and more people who talk about a Euro stack that Europe should be able to build its own technology stack because if you look at it, most companies rely extremely heavily on US infrastructure. The French example is really cool. I mean, Macron says, no more Zoom, no more Teams. And anyone's to phase it out by 2027. I think honestly, this is Macron's speak at its extreme. I mean, this is big, big, roaring speeches, but no alternatives. And when you look at it, the reality is that when it is about operating system, when it's about databases, when it's about AI, when it's about platforms, when it's about the cloud, sure. I mean, I think it's healthy for Europe to have its own ambitions. But the reality is there is no alternative. And for sure. And I was triggered by a really interesting-- there was a really in-depth analysis that happened in the financial times not too long ago. Where they looked at the situation in Russia. And of course, after the war in Ukraine, Russia is a super interesting, almost experimental sandbox on tech sovereignty. Because after the sanctions, all of a sudden, the Russian industry couldn't get access to Western technology easily anymore. And for a long time, I have always admired the Russian in terms of computer science. I mean, they have some of the smartest, AI brains in the world. I mean, one of the tools that I always show in my presentations is Brickett. I mean, Brickett is one of those apps where the LEGOs on your floor are recognized. And it tells you what you can build with it. I think it's one of the coolest apps ever. It's built by the Russian programmers who built Yandex, the search engine, the Google of Russia. And I think the talent in Russia is spectacular. But the problem is, since the sanctions, the Russians didn't have access to Western technology is easily. And then Putin said, no problem. We have extremely smart engineers who will build our own tech stack. I mean, everything from processors to servers, to cloud storage, to software operating systems, will build it ourselves. And it didn't work. I mean, the FT basically said, you know what? This was a pipeline. I mean, I think the saddest example of that was end of last year when the Russians had their humanoid robot on stage, which collapsed after three seconds. And it looked like a drunken Russian. I mean, that was-- you cannot get more dramatic than that. You have to have a Russian drunken robot collapse on stage. But the Russians are nowhere. And you can clearly see that after five, six years of trying, building your own complete independent software and technology stack is not so easy. And I think what you now have is a lot of the US tech players. Look at Microsoft, for example, or Amazon, who have also invested a lot in data centers in Europe. They have what they call sovereign solutions. And sovereign solutions is, you know, you're still compliant with European law. You're compliant with the sovereignty rules that Europe has. But you're still using Microsoft Azure in the cloud, or, you know, AWS in the cloud. And what you now have is a very interesting discussion where some people in Europe are saying, OK, it's nice from my crawl to say, no more Zoom. It's good that we have all this legislation on sovereignty. But is it really worth it? Because we European companies were paying a sovereignty tax when we use these solutions, because these solutions are more expensive than the normal version, because, you know, they have to be compliant. But is it the same thing as we did with, you know, the whole-- the green deal, where we have a lot of legislation and a lot of-- we need to do our own. And we need to do it better. But in the end, we're just weakening our own industry. So I think what Macron is saying is a lot of Macron speak. I think that idea of European tech independence is going to take a lot longer than European policy makers think. And I think we have to be careful that we don't erode the capabilities of our own industry, our own startups and scale it to be able to use that. So I think the tech sovereignty is easily said, but very difficult in practice. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I would like to make the link to not just a digital, but also the hardware and the production, because that is exactly what is happening with China, but not on the digital, on the tech, on the technology stack, but happening on everything related to the industry. And I think it's crazy to see how these days protective we are, and we're going to build our own stuff, but there's no plan, really, how to do it. I don't know if you noticed Peter, the European industry summit that happened just this week, where Macron and Ursula and Van der Leyen and lots of people were there just a couple of days ago. And they were talking about, yeah, we need to rebuild this industry. And from the way they're in Belgium, even said that, yeah, if we're not going to do it, we're going to become an industrial museum. And I thought this was crazy, because it's completely an existential crisis now. And so I call it the Depression summit, rather than the European industry summit, because it was really like, yeah, just like you say, we need to build our own, we need to save the industry. I mean, you're talking about the digital. I mean, it's probably too late to build it, but if we want to build it, we need a real plan. But with the industry, we have the industry, but somehow we're losing it and everybody starting to realize it. Van der Leyen said very clearly, this is about unfair competition from China, state-backed capacity or overcapacity. It's about dumping Macron set or an enratcliffe. I don't know the CEO and founder of Ineos said more than 100 sites closed in the chemical industry and related industries. 75,000 jobs were lost, $70 billion were lost just in the last years to China. And we have the exact same thing happening. We are talking about protecting our stuff, building our own stuff. But for somehow, some reason, when it's about the US, we're not blaming Washington for it. because it's the technology giants doing it. When we talk about China, we're blaming Beijing for it and the reality, I think, just like in the US, it's about their innovation, about their capital, it's about the speed and the scale. Everything they do to build that industry in China and everything the Silicon Valley companies do to build the stack is just about disruption. I didn't see anybody talk about it. I didn't see any of these officials talk about how it started from the bottom up. It's all as if it's planned to actually kill Europe. Yeah, but I think we shouldn't be too pessimistic. I think we have a lot of potential in Europe, but I think it's about maybe making choices. I mean, doing everything is probably going to be extremely difficult. I mean, that's one of the things, of course, where you've always talked about China, where they said, okay, we're going to focus on this, this, and this, and then they boom all in. In the US, you have a different environment where it's really the private companies that are massively all in. Look at, we'll talk about it later. I think the CapExpend and AI that just came out beginning of the year is just ludicrous when you think about it. But I think in Europe, we're going to have to make choices. We can do it. I mean, for me, the greatest example of European independence from a technology point is still Airbus, right? Airbus is one of the coolest companies in the world. And it's the most unlikely thing where the French and the British and the Germans work together with all the smaller countries as well, to build the coolest planes in the world. We can do it in Europe if you want. But it also means that you need to really focus. You need to really double down. And you need to spend a shit load of money to make it happen. I mean, and we shown that we can do it with Airbus, but we can't do 20 different Airbuses in all different directions. We are probably really going to have to focus and make choices. Yeah. It was when we were in Silicon Valley two weeks ago. It was interesting to see how some of the tech companies look at Europe, not just as a market to sell to. But at a certain moment, someone asked, do you have developers or programmers in Europe? And they say, yeah, of course. And why do you choose Europeans? What are the unique talents that you want to use? You know what he said, Pascal? He said, oh, that's just a cheap labor to us. A cheap labor. I forgot who said it. Felt sick. At a certain moment, we were all in shock, like it was probably a slip of the tongue because it was in front of a group of Europeans. It was like, no, it's just cheap labor if we do something in Europe. Crazy. And that was shocking. Cheap labor in a museum. That's an interesting combination. Yeah, we're going to become the factory of the world for basically the manual workers. No, but I think you're completely right. We're going to become the China of the '80s or the '90s for the rest of the world. No, it's crazy. But it's all about this protectionism. And I think that's where our mindset just can't let go of it. I made a calculation just a couple of months ago on subsidies from China and subsidies from the European Union for industrial subsidies. And I came to the conclusion that on a per factory basis, the European Union and China are spending the same amount of money. It's $45,000 per factory. Of course, China has three times more factories than European. But it's all about choices. That's what you said, Peter. Yeah. It's giving these money to certain players. I mean, look at C-H-T-L in the battery company. They have 39% of the market share worldwide. And Nordvolt has zero. And they got about the same amount of subsidies. So we can talk about subsidies and unfair whatever. But unless we're going to build stuff here in Europe and we have the talent, we have everything. Airbus is a good example. But why is I make an ASMR and all these companies not working together? Why are the chemical industries over the whole Europe not working together to build ecosystems? I don't get it. But we're going to lose all of them. And of course, there's problems with energy. There's problems with regulation and all that. But if we work together, somehow we could do it. But still, we're very much in a protective mindset. And there's some good no ecosystems coming. Like if you see what's happening in Gantt, if you see what's happening in Stockholm. I mean, there are a lot of really good initiatives that are taking off with the philosophy, like you see in Silicon Valley, it's often in cities where you have strong universities, where you have some successful exits where those entrepreneurs are reinvesting. But it takes time. I mean, we started 20 or 30 years later in those cities. So it takes time, then you create more money. You create new examples. But we're starting to build that. And I think that's super cool to see that from the ground up, some people are really taking the lead in these cities and making a difference for the next generation. Let's talk about something else. Mr. Beasts, we often talk about Mr. Beast in this podcast, you know, that I have my children as my Mr. Beast researchers here. And last week there was big news from Mr. Beast. He acquired STEP. And STEP is like a Fintech player that is offering financial services mainly to youngsters. The big headline was in the news, Mr. Beast bought a bank. It's not really a bank, but it's a financial player offering financial services to youngsters. STEP has about 7 million users. They raised about 500 million and are valued at 1 billion. And Mr. Beast acquired it for the 100%. It's not public how much he paid for it. The assumptions are a little bit less than the 1 billion. But he raised 200 million just before new years. And he started a new company called Beast Financial. Mr. Beast Financial's at the end of 2025. And it's part of this new philosophy of Mr. Beast that he says, I have this community on YouTube and on my other channels of more than 450 million subscribers. What if I start to promote services like this? Then there is a big chance that that 7 million users in just a few weeks' time will boost to maybe 20, 25, maybe 30 million users. And it's really cool to look at the philosophy that he has with his platform. He's not saying, I want to make money through bank. He's saying, no, my mission is to educate my audience in money, making sure that they make the right choices. I never had that opportunity when I was young. And suddenly I had a lot of money. And it was difficult to deal with that. Because Mr. Beast's company is now valued at 5 billion. So he says, I want to help my audience, because many of them will have financial issues in the future. And if I can educate them while they're young, I'm going to change their lives for good. And I love that. There is not a single other bank in the world that I know that talks to their audience like that. Most banks talk about products, services, online tools. He says, I'm an educator in financial wisdom. That's basically it. And it's super cool. Mr. Beast has this community. It's a feeling of belonging. And you can bet your money on it. That a lot of his followers will just join, because they want to be part of that Mr. Beast community. And I find this fascinating. Because think of the opportunities that he has. Now it's financial services. What if he starts next month with Mr. Beast Mobile? That you can get mobile subscriptions to be part of his community? Maybe he's going to go into insurance. Maybe he's going to support educational loans. I mean, you can build an entire empire around a community of 450 million people. I mean, that's almost the entire population of Europe. Of Europe in Union. That is following him. That is really loyal, who love what he does. And this is the next step. I mean, he started with chocolates. He started with burgers, which was a complete fiasco. Those burgers were awful. So he stopped with it. Now he's going into team parks, which all make sense. But now this extra layer of new services around it, I think it's super interesting to see how that will grow. And how maybe he's like the next Walt Disney. Maybe 20 years from now, people will talk about Mr. Beast. Like we talk about Walt Disney that started with something very niche, creating content for young people in an innovative way. And they love it. And based on that content and that community, you start to build an empire in different services. I think it's one of the strongest examples in the world right now to see how you build communities and how you can create a business around that and how you can make a lot of money by doing so. So I thought this was the coolest news of the week. Well, I think he is really leveraging his brand in a really interesting way. And I think you made the analogy for mobile. I mean, when I was reading this, I really thought it's exactly like that. Because in mobile for a long time, we had the MVNOs. So the mobile virtual network operators, where you have a particular brand that isn't really a mobile operator themselves, but they're just a brand. And they use-- Like mobile Vikings. Like mobile Vikings in Belgium, for example, which started and they didn't build their own infrastructure. They didn't build their own towers. They basically used somebody else's. But they became a really popular brand because they focused on customer service, because they had a certain vision and a mentality and a brand identity that worked really, really well. And I think that's what Mr. Bees is doing, because as you said, I mean, he didn't buy a bank. I mean, step is not a bank. Step is basically the same thing. They use a bank in the back because they offer financial services and they offer financial app. But in the end, step does not have a banking license. I mean, that is a regulated-- and I think that's probably going to be something that might have. and more, where you have the same thing, like with mobile virtual network operators, where you have a telco in the back, you might have, in the case of finance, you know, people like Mr. Beast or other very popular brands who might be able to do that. But I think he's using that really wisely. But the chocolates, for example, is that a success, Stephen? I mean, is that, or is it like a boom spike? And then boom and drop. No, there's a lot of chocolates. It's called feastables. Feastables. And I think Walmart is his biggest partner. Feastables are feastables. Feastables. Feastables. Yeah. And it's being sold through Walmart. And you see it in different places around the world. I don't know the financials, but we were in South Africa a year and a half ago. And suddenly my children went nuts because that was like the first place in the world where they saw the Mr. Beast chocolate in a store. And obviously we had to try it. So it seems to be going really well. And especially through their Walmart deal. But I don't know the facts about that. Do you know where feastables are produced, Stephen? No, in Belgium probably. No, no, no, no, not in Belgium. I mean, okay, you said Belgium. Pascal, where are feastables produced? I have no idea, honestly. I mean, name a country, Pascal. You have a 270-year-old teacher. Luxembourg. No? Manufactured in Peru. Peru? Peru? Peru? Yeah. Okay, I got some financials here. It's true AI. So I don't have the time to double check it. But investor documents and reports say that it started in year one 2023 with $96 million in revenue. And today it is projected for 2026 to do 800 million in revenue. Wow, it's not bad for chocolate. I mean. Not bad for chocolate. I like the story of the education, Stephen, because I think this is really where I see a lot of parallels with China where the whole social media was very much based on educating people rather than just communication between people. And so you could see lots of. TikTok became very good about it. Very famous because of it with their Tokyo platform, the news platform, but also the whole social media in China is a lot to do with education. Xiao Hongshu, I don't know the red note if you remember. The ones that everybody went from TikTok to red note. This is all about educating people on travel. And so I'm a big believer that if you. and I mean, this is your story as well. If you give people something that helps them in their lives in general, I mean, these services sell and people log on. And so this is happening. Ali Pay also, well, from Ant Financial, was also created. It's now a bank with a full license, but it was created to solve an e-commerce problem and not just to be a bank. So I think this is a very, very smart way. It's a smart move. Yeah. But curiosity, Steven, if you would ever launch a side business, I mean, Stevens, da, da, da, da, da. What would it be? What would you think? Man, if I could put my name in. I know. Steven's karaoke bars. Would that be good? Like a chain of karaoke bars with state of the art infrastructure only sing along songs, not for people who want to pretend they can sing, not to sing like semi-professional, but just sing along good vibes kind of songs, music in a beautiful setting. What do you think? Wow. That's really cool. What about you, Pascal? What would you say? Coppen's merch. Coppen's merch. I have no immediate plans to build anything. No, no, no, no, we can't. That's how this works. This is how it works. I was very open. And honest here. I guess karaoke bars are brilliant, eh? The thing that I miss, but it's very boring, is basically everything related to content that would be available in a different way. Like newspapers, Spotify for newspapers kind of like you could just get content everywhere. Today I think that's one of my biggest challenges is that you need to buy a lot of things from newspapers and media. Coppen's, it's boring. Coppen's, Coppen's, Coppen's, Newspimes. So I think you should be available to everybody and find a different business model to actually sorry is boring, but I expect it's something more spectacular from you, Pascal. Yeah, no, this is not what we were hoping for. I'm not new. We're not going to find anything at Pascal's. No, but I have another idea, maybe before, before, yeah, drone shows. Drone shows. Drone shows. Stop it, drone shows. That's something I love. So I see it everywhere in China, drones, firework, I want to bring this to Europe. Yes, okay, I found drones. That's less boring, right? That's what we were looking for. Eliminates the skies. That's really cool. Any more Peter? I would market my own spaghetti sauce. I think I make a really good spaghetti sauce and I think Hinson's spaghetti sauce would be my kind of brand. I want to get out there. We're still finalizing the negotiations. Where is going to be manufactured? And important without cheese. Without cheese, absolutely. Okay, we got a drone show. I've never had the opportunity to try the famous Hinson's spaghetti sauce. Did you want Pascal? I don't need spaghetti sauce. I don't know. I would not be a customer for you, Peter. I mean, you're not eating any kind of pasta. Yeah, pasta, yeah, but not so. Wasn't it the Chinese who invented pasta? Yeah, well, they call noodles in China. But so you have to stop it. And it's important to set that that Marco Polo, the Italian stall, that's the most important thing. I mean, there's a lot of things we stall from China back then. I mean, like porcelain and so on, but that's not good. But Pascal, so you eat pasta, but never with sauce. Not tomato, yeah, a little. Not tomato, but white creamy sauce. Yeah, white is no problem. Yeah, pasta. It's not white, right, Peter? No, no, no, it's tomato sauce. You see? Tomato sauce, yeah. But I mean, it's an open interface. I will make sure that I do a spaghetti feast for you. But only if we have a drone show after and Stephen, then we want to go to your car. I agree. I agree. And fully your operation. Yeah, we got a date. Yeah, very good. All right. Let's close this funny topic. And let's talk about the AI stuff that we're going to get really, really serious. Copics, craze in 2026, Peter. Yeah, so the beginning of the year has been incredible with all the announcements from the big tech companies announcing how much they're going to spend on data centers. And this is something I've been tracking for a while now. It's very special because what you see is that everybody thought last year was crazy to give you an idea. In 2024, the number one player investing in AI infrastructure was Microsoft. And Microsoft invested and that was like something that has always stuck in my mind. One billion dollars every week during the entire year in 2024 to build data centers. So in total, it was like $55 billion US dollars. And everybody thought, oh my god, that is insane, right? And then in 2025, Microsoft invested the double of that and everybody thought, wow, that is just crazy. But they weren't number one. The number one was AWS, the Amazon cloud business, which invested an incredible rate of 2.5 billion every single week. And everybody thought, okay, this is the craziest year we ever. Now, in the beginning this year, they're all saying, well, we've seen how much money we have left. And then to give you an idea, AWS is now bringing that to four billion every single week. I mean, last night I was at the university that I went to, University of Gens here in Belgium. And they have this very ambitious plan to rebuild all their infrastructure by 2050. And it's going to be super expensive. It's going to be 2.6 billion euros. And then I said, that's less than what Amazon spends in one week to build infrastructure. So it's like mind bogglingly huge. And if you add up the big four that announced in the beginning of the year, so it's Amazon with AWS, it's Microsoft with Azure, it's Google with Google Cloud. But it's also meta. Meta is not a B2B player, but is investing heavily in AI infrastructure. If you add these three up, the total commitment they have for this year alone is $600 billion in CapEx. $600 billion. So to put that in perspective, because nobody knows what $600 billion actually is, because it's just funny money, right? But I did the calculation. So if you look at the Manhattan Project, the Manhattan Project where the entire US science and industry work together to build the atomic bomb, if you add up, all the investments over a five year period, and you would bring that to $2026, it is about $45 billion US dollars. Okay. And then they're spending $600. If you take the Apollo Project, which put Neil Armstrong on the moon, which was like the biggest industrial focus ever in the US, that over a period of 10 years to put a man on the moon was $330 billion US dollars. And now these four companies are going to blow double of that just this year alone. So the CapEx spreads crazy. Peter, can you help us understand why this is necessary? Well, I think two things. First of all, is that the growth of AI is so spectacular that they need an enormous amount of compute power to make it work. If you look at it, last year, Sam Altman announced that 800 million weekly users on ChatGPT was something they realized in October. They're now probably close to a billion because they reached the 900 million weekly users in January. So they're getting, there's going to be announcement very soon where they said, "Yep, we've done a billion weekly users." That means that one out of ten, one out of eight people on the planet use this on a weekly basis. And I don't know how much you use AI, but my usage has increased. And every time we use it, we need the compute power. So we need more, we have more and more people using it, more and more every single week. And that means that they need more and more compute power. At this moment, we just don't have the data centers. Does that mean that they just invest to keep up? And this is not to innovate? I mean, this is really about keeping up. But this is also where they think, "You know what? I don't think people are going to use this less." I mean, they're probably going to use that more because once we have one out of ten people on the planet, I mean, very soon it's going to be one out of three people on the planet that is using that. And the same thing is all of these things get more and more intensive in the token use. So there was a really, really interesting new AI tool that came out where Google has built basically a world view model where you cannot just generate a document or generate a video, which is now normal, but you can generate your own video game. So you can say, "I want Stephen's world, Karaoke themed, and I want to shoot the people who love me tender." I'm making it up, right? And then the tool now is only available for the premium, premium, premium users who pay like, I don't know, a lot of money every month. And because it's so compute intensive, you can only run the game for 60 seconds because then you're probably frying up some data center somewhere in Illinois. I mean, it is just more and more use, more and more users and more and more clever users. So it is really all about capacity. Okay. But does that mean that in a few years from now, when they have 2 billion, 2.5 billion users per platform, that prices go time-stand? Now, I have like the 20 Euro subscription on chat GPT for my premium. It's not the 201. And for me, this is more than good enough. Will this increase to 500 a month in 2 years from now? I mean, what you have is a very interesting question where I think we're not sure how that's going to play out in the consumer pricing. But what you now see is that a lot of companies are starting to realize that their AI cost is going to be significant. I mean, there's a lot of people who look at their cloud bill, whether it's Azure or Google Cloud or AWS and are getting a little bit of a sticker shock. I mean, they think, "Whoa, that's pretty heavy, right?" And it's because it's so easy to use. And I think this is an environment now where, I mean, we're in Silicon Valley. The question I asked to everyone that we talk to is, okay, with everything that is happening, it's fantastic. We have more and more people using AI, which means we're going to get more efficient. We're going to have software development that goes 10x productivity, but is the IT cost of a company going to go up or down in the next 10 years? And many people were puzzled by that question. And they said, "We're not really sure." And I think what you see is that most people are starting to think, "Well, you know, with all the software development, maybe we don't need that many software developers anymore. Maybe we don't need the integrators anymore, the outsourcing companies that used to help us in the same way. Maybe we don't need to pay for the software licenses as much, but the cost of compute is going to go up." And I think that's what we fundamentally see. And this is why these companies are doubling down. They're all in at this moment because they say, "Wow, I mean, this is going to be a big part of how individuals, but especially companies, are going to spend their IT money in the next couple of years. And we want to be there to provide that compute infrastructure." Yeah. But of course, you also have the optimization part. I think there's still a lot that they can do to optimize to lower the cost as well, meaning the models itself and so on. And so. Yeah, this is Jenkins paradox. We've talked about this before. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is about, you know, when Jenkins, he was the observer who saw that when the steam engine became, you know, 10 times more productive. People said, "Oh, we're not going to need as much coal anymore because it was so easier and cheaper. More people use the steam engine in the end. We ended up burning more coal." And this is probably what's going to happen in this world. But it's also the US that is going very much in a horizontal model. I mean, that's, I think, that's the problem. If you go very vertical business by business, a hospital, for example, like that, then I think it's much easier to retain or control the cost. But indeed, it is becoming a huge issue. And the US is going full speed ahead. Full of all-in. I mean, this is crazy. I mean, it's pretty scary when you think about it. I mean, a company like Google, for example, which is one of the most profitable companies in the world, has said, "Okay, all-in, guys, Google Cloud is really, really taking off. I mean, they're number three, but, you know, they're super aggressive and they have a couple of things which, you know, in a couple of niches, they're absolutely, you know, top-nudge." And they said, "All-in, they are jeopardizing 90% of their free cash flow this year just to put into infrastructure. That is an all-in bet." Well, that's what we heard. When we were at the box, we saw CEO of Box. I think he spoke to us for 20 minutes. During those 20 minutes, he probably said 15 times. We're betting the entire company on AI. He linked back to the innovators' paradox. He said, you know, in the past, incumbents didn't go all-in on new technologies. And because of that, they became less relevant, where this cannot happen right now. So we're going all-in. And this is what you've felt with all the companies in Silicon Valley, both the new ones, both the big platforms and the more incumbents. They're all like, we don't have a choice. We're going all-in, all-money on the table, because otherwise, we're going to become less relevant in the next two, three years. The SaaS apocalypse, yeah. Maybe to build on this, one of the challenges is revenue for companies like OpenAI. I mean, Google and Meta and Microsoft and Amazon, they have revenue sources. OpenAI has less of those. So they're starting with advertising. And I'm receiving a lot of questions from people on what that actually means and what will happen. It was funny that last year, during an interview, Sam Altun said, "Advertisement that is a last resort. We're only going to go into advertising as a last resort." Six months later, they are starting with advertising. And he shared his philosophy on advertising a few weeks ago on Twitter. So I just want to read a few things out of that. He says, "Our mission is to ensure AI benefits for all of humanity and our pursuit of advertising is in support of that mission and making AI more accessible." So very open-minded. It will be answer independence. Ads cannot influence the answers of chat GPT. You have choice and control of your data. And then the most important one, the long-term value. We do not optimize for time spent in chat GPT. We prioritize our user trust and user experience over revenue. And then a few weeks ago, they announced the financial target for advertising on their platform, which is 25 billion. Now, I wonder how that will work with the ad principles that he shares and reaching the 25 billion. Because if you follow the ad principles, it's basically saying, "Give us money, but we don't want to influence our users because we want to make sure that everything is perfectly in line with our long-term vision." I'm not sure if advertisers will follow that vision and philosophy. So it's going to be interesting to see how it works. They're starting now this month with first test for the free users. I call it a Google advertising model. You search for something in that. In the US only, right? In the US only, yeah. And you're going to see something on the side or below that is like a sponsored link, which is pretty obvious and a model that we're familiar with. What I find more interesting is the behind-the-scenes deals that they're making. And the retail industry is the first one where they're starting with this. They have big deals with companies like Walmart or companies like Home Depot, where you're basically linking the whole Walmart infrastructure to Chatchy-Pity or the Home Depot infrastructure to Chatchy-Pity. I talked about this in the last episode. So you're saying, "I want to do a big hike in Yosemite. What do I need to take? You get the list, buy it for me, Chatchy-Pity. You're linked to Walmart and you get it from Walmart." That was last month. Now they're making deals like this with a bunch of retailers. So then the question is, if you are Walmart and you have a deal with Chatchy-Pity like I just described, but you're also maybe Amazon. Maybe you're an outdoor adventure store. Which of these companies will be promoted as the one that will get the sale? And this is behind-the-scenes stuff that will make that decision. Based on what we know now, there are like three layers of decision-making on how that will work. And there's a little disclaimer here. We saw someone from OpenAI and Silicon Valley. And someone in our group asked him, what is the long-term vision of open AI? What do you think in the long-term AI will look like? And we asked that question in January 26, and the answer of that person was, oh, the long-term, the very long-term, so you mean May 26. And we were like, okay. And he says, for us, the long-term is four months from now. We don't see anything further than that. So I'm going to say a few things, but by the time this podcast is published, it may already be different. But what we know now is that there are like three layers of decision-making on how to this, how the platform will decide if I buy the list of goods from Walmart or from Amazon. The first layer is, can you deliver? Can you do what you promise? Because what they want to be sure of is that the partner delivers. And this is a big difference with how advertising works on social media or on Google. If you click on a Google link and you end up at Walmart and Walmart screws up, you will be angry at Walmart, not at Google. Or if you click on a Facebook link, you end up at a company, they screw up, you will be angry with that company. Now, if you will get a recommendation from a platform like Chachypt and you buy on Chachypt and something goes wrong with that delivery, you will be angry with Chachypt and you will go instantly to Gemini next time. So they want to make sure that you deliver because they will be held accountable for that delivery. I mean, if you look at Stephen that came out last year, the 10% of the ads on a meta platforms are scams. Yeah, terrible. That is terrible. I mean, this is, I think it's incredible that we don't see more feedback from the other advertisers who are saying, you know what, I'm paying a lot of money to meta. And my ads are up there with 10% scam ads where people are being ripped off. I mean, honestly, it's incredible that they get away with it. So if OpenAI is capable of doing that, I think that might actually be a really interesting move. I think so too. And I think OpenAI can be a fantastic advertising platform if they do it right. Everyone will want to try it because everyone is scared of the algorithm blindness becoming invisible for the algorithm. If you can shortcut that with money, people will line up for that. And I fully agree with the scams on Facebook. It's terrible that they get away with this. But can you deliver? Layer one. Second layer, will it be smooth? Will it be customer friendly? Will the customer be happy with the process? Because it will be linked back to them as well. And then the last one is a very interesting one. Is this the best choice now? And here are a number of things we'll be taking into account. First user preference. If you are a member of Amazon Prime or of Sam's Club, that will be taken into account as a factor of decision making. They know that you prefer one of the players. Second one is price context. They want to offer you a good price. They want to make sure that you have a good deal and that you don't feel like, oh, if I buy to chat GPT, it's always 10% cheaper than when I do the research on Google. So they want to make sure that you have the best price available. Now imagine that all of this is equal. Pascal, you buy a bunch of stuff. You're both a member of Walmart, you're a member of Amazon. You both give you a good price. Then some AI agents behind the scenes will go into an auction, a real time auction. So the Walmart bot and the Amazon bot will talk to the OpenAI bot and OpenAI will say, what's the margin that you want on this? And then the Walmart bot says, I want 5%. Amazon says, no, I'm going to go for 4.9 is also good. I'm going for 4.8 until one of those two backs off and OpenAI has the highest profit on that deal they propose. And that will happen in nanoseconds behind the scenes. And eventually that will be the decision making factor to see who will get the deal or not. It's a fascinating, completely new model of advertising and making deals. I'm actually very excited about this because this is the first time. If they roll it out like this and if this would be the standard, this is the first time where customer experience is placed on number one and number two in the decision making flow. Which should be fantastic for the user. It means optimization of prices. The difficulty will be for the companies behind the scenes who will have to play a very crazy game to decide what will happen to their margins. And now retailers and suppliers to the retail industry are negotiating through their procurement departments over those tiny margins. What if this happens in real time with AI agents doing the trick instead of humans? That's going to be very fascinating. Imagine that 10% eventually of any kind of sales happen on AI platforms. Like we have now it e-commerce approximately. Imagine what that will do to entire industries and how it will change the way that people buy and how procurement would change. This can be a total game changer. So I'm very curious to see how it will evolve. I loved one of the comments that I read about everything that happens about advertising and AI and somebody said, "Ah, I never realized that the A in AGI stands for ads." Which I think feels. It's always like that. With tech platforms as soon as they reach 1 billion users, that's when they think, "Ah, that's an interesting audience to make some money from." Yeah. Exactly. Something else that we need to talk about, guys. Elon Musk, he's been busy this week. Again. He's merging his company SpaceX, merger with XAI. Peter, can you give us some context about Elon, his big dreams plans and what's happening there? Well, I mean, the big announcement, of course, that he merged SpaceX with XAI into a new company. He was basically XAI, his AI company that was acquired basically by SpaceX because SpaceX in the deal is valued at $1 trillion. His AI company is valued at $250 billion, so it's a $1.25 trillion deal. Which is funny money, right? I mean, what is Elon Musk's superpower? It's bullshitting. I think that is. Yeah. This is storytelling. Some people would tell it storytelling. Yeah. Inspiring people. Inspiring people. Yeah. Yeah. But the press release was amazing. So this happened out of the blue. I mean, Adafo's, he was already talking about putting data centers into space because he says in space, it's cold. You know what I mean? And you have the sun and data centers in space and people thought, yeah, he was just. I know, he was higher or something. And then two weeks later, I mean, he basically says, OK, XAI has been acquired. And the press release was amazing. I mean, the press release says the mission is to scale to make a sentient sun to understand the universe and extend the light of consciousness to the stars. Wow. Keteman is just absolutely fantastic. I mean, just writing a press release is just, you know, super-notty days. But it is interesting because I think what is happening is the number one reason is money. It's the same thing as with, you know, the hyperscalers. I mean, it's really expensive. So as you know, Elon Musk built an entire AI factory called Colossus in Memphis. They have now brought up Colossus 2 online. But these are just huge factories, which, you know, they have the latest blackwell processors from Nvidia. And they cost a lot of money and they need an enormous amount of power to run. So these are just the AI factories are eating a cash like crazy. And at this moment, the most wealthy cash-rich, most valuable part of his entire universe is SpaceX because that is making money. That is the most valuable part because they have a monopoly. Nobody else can build the rocket. So I mean, there's a whole debate now whether, you know, putting data centers in space is a good idea or a bad idea. Actually, there's somebody who can actually build rockets and that's the Chinese. So now you're right. In Western monopoly. In the Western hemisphere, there's no, there's a monopoly. But I just wanted to say one thing about the data centers in space because this is actually part of the next five-year plan of China. So China is very serious, just like Musk, to within the next five years to have data centers in space because, yeah, you have the sun. So that's a lot of energy you need. You have the cooling. There's a lot of opportunity. But I think the real interesting part will come the moment that 6G will be available. And that is where China in the next five years also plans to roll out 6G in general because that is the first time that basically satellite to earth communication could be completely flawless. And it's mainly China that is doing that. So Musk might have the satellites. The question is, will he have the communication? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the whole idea for China is really to drive all that edge computing than towards the industry with sensors on the earth. And I think that's where we're going to see in five years from now something completely crazy. And Musk, the only two really thinking about reordering space. So just a few questions, Peter, on this. Do you think this merger of XAI and SpaceX was necessary because XAI would go bankrupt? if he wouldn't do it? - It's a cash thing. I mean, it really is. And of course, the XAI shareholders are very happy because I mean, I think who is the happiest is the old Twitter shareholder. So because I mean, Twitter got acquired by Elon Musk and then renamed X. And then X got acquired by XAI. So these guys have gotten a serious boost on, I mean, whoever invested in helping Musk buy Twitter is now laughing itself all the way to the bank 'cause they put in money, all of a sudden, whoa, we're being acquired by XAI, whoa, we're being acquired by SpaceX. I mean, that is just, wow, right? I mean, the investor ride of those people, they cannot stop smiling. But it's a cash thing. I mean, when you look at it, if you would be Elon Musk and you realize you need to raise $100 billion, just to compete with the other providers, like Google or AWS or Microsoft in that race, there's no way you could do it. And now he has an interesting vehicle because everybody wants to get into SpaceX. I mean, the number one thing in Pascal's right, I mean, it's Starlink, right? I mean, it's the capacity they can launch satellites and they have Starlink, which is the most unique combination out there. And to Pascal's point, I mean, last year, Elon Musk bought the spectrum of Echo Star, $17 billion, there was not a lot of noise about this. But it basically means that he now has the capacity to build a global telco. He can build a global telco. And if he has data centers in space, if he has the telco capabilities, he is going to be able to give every single of the Deutsche telecoms and the T-T and the T-Mobile's and the KPN's a run for their money. And I think, you know, that is going to be spectacular. I think where he's wrong is again in his timing. At Davos, he said, "Oh, oh, we're going to have data centers in space in the next two, three years." And it's going to be the dominant form, honestly. I mean, it's part of China's five-year plan, but from an engineering point of view, the stuff you have to do to build data centers in space, nobody knows how to do that. I mean, even in space, yes, it's cold and you have the sun, but none of the processors that we have today work in space, because of the re-eation. So much interference, yeah. The interference, I mean, what you have, also the complexity of making that work. I mean, there, I mean, if you're now a young engineer, you can make your mark on the world by building the first really reliable data center in space, but that's not going to happen in two years. That's going to happen maybe in 10 years or 15 years. But it clearly shows because of the enormous attraction of SpaceX and Starlink, he's going to have the IPO of the century, and that's the money he's going to need to really power his AI. So I think it's a financial thing more than a visionary thing. Yeah, well, I was surprised that they also changed their goals towards Mars this week. Yeah, Moon. Because of the pressure of Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin, that is focusing on the Moon, where he said, we need to pivot completely towards the Moon. And going to Mars, we only have an opportunity to launch a rocket every, what is it, 26 months or something like this. So that's every two and a half years. To the Moon, we can launch a rocket every five minutes if we want to. So suddenly, the key priority now is to build a city on the Moon, and Mars seems to be far off right now. So I've been reading a lot about this. And most of the press seems to think that it's because he is starting to think that where he thought that Mars was like five years away, he's now starting to realize that it's a little bit more difficult, a little more complex. I mean, it's probably going to be 20 years away. And he's not a young man anymore. How old is he? I mean, how old is Elon Musk? He's 54, right? I mean-- 54. So if it's going to be 20 years, say, you have a little hiccup. It's going to be 25 years before the call on the Mars. I mean, he's going to be a close call. That's going to be a close call, right? I mean, for him to have a reliable pension in Mars-- [LAUGHTER] --and I think a lot of people says, you know what? The Moon is easier, right? But he mentioned that. That the CEO of the hottest company in the world doesn't live on this planet anymore, right? I mean, can you mention the narrative that you can say, oh, we're now beaming the analyst meeting of SpaceX directly from the CEO's office from the Moon. Wow. How incredibly cool would that be, right? So I think the Moon is more achievable. It's easier. It's going to be faster. And I think from a PR point of view, I mean, he doesn't want to give that to Jeff Bezos, I think. I think that's the main reason. I mean, he wants to be first to have a city on the Moon. Yeah, absolutely. And do you know the most important date this year, the most important date for Elon Musk this year? The most important date is the 8th of June this year. And many people are speculating that the IPO is going to be aimed exactly at that date. Because this is, first of all, it's his birthday. It's his birthday. And it's also the moment where you have a planetary alignment that happens only once every-- so it's like a unique moment where the planets align. It's his birthday. And everybody thinks, that's it. He's going to IPO at that moment. So I think we're going to see something spectacular. But honestly, for me, he doesn't want to see Bezos on the Moon. I think he wants to be there first. And I think he wants an office on the Moon. I think that is-- Can you build data centers on the Moon? Is that the plan then? Probably, maybe. I mean-- It's a little bit too far out to-- The problem is the speed. I mean, by the time you get a tragedy, boom, that's the problem. But maybe for some calculations, for maybe training models, you might be able to do that. But not for the inference. That wouldn't work. But I ask my family. I ask my family, OK, say, Elon's going to the Moon. Would you want to go? I mean, honestly, we're talking about space tourism becoming-- And my son, immediate, said, yeah, of course. I mean, duh. And my wife and our daughter said, no. I mean, my wife said, there is no way I want to go there. I mean, it's going to be probably still super expensive. And why? You can't go outside. Why would you go there? So I thought it's really interesting. So Steve, we-- Well, the Chinese are going to be on the moon. Well, Steve and Pascal, Elon gives you an opportunity. It's like $250,000. I mean, would you go? I would love to go. If it's available, if it's safe, I mean, of course, I would love to stand on the moon and look at our planet. I think that must be insane. Yeah, Pascal? Well, if I can visit the Chinese on the moon, I'm definitely going to-- Or start the Chinese colony. It's like the first Chinese-- Chinese colony. [LAUGHTER] We need to be dark side of the moon. Don't tell us. Yeah, they do. They do. Yeah, that's why. I wonder how the visa policy on the moon will work. Yeah. When we're at a passport, do you need to go to the board? I don't know. I don't know. Imagine coming there and you have to pass US immigration first. Yeah. Why are you coming here? Yeah. Why are you coming to the reflection? When are you going back? We saw something on your social media. This is not OK for them. We're going to put you on the first rocket back. Yeah. But I think we're true. Our news. Yeah. And maybe an announcement, Stephen, is we're also going to do a special one with our good friend, Jeremiah Ouyang soon. Because one of the things that everybody is talking about now is the most book thing where all the agents have their own social network, which some people say it's the most interesting thing ever happened in the world of technology. Some people say it's just complete AI theater. It's just a show. But it is funny to watch. I mean, agents talking about building their own religion. And it's just really cool that my favorite part-- They started their own tabloids to gossip about each other. So you can see that they are trained on human behavior. Starting a religion, starting a tabloid is fun. My favorite is-- Something's off. I heard the story that one of the agents found a bug in software and has now adopted that as its pet. I mean, I love the fact that agents adopt a software bug. And they have a name for it. They call it, oh, it's our glitches. They're a little software bug pet, which I think it's really funny. Even if it's AI theater, I think it's really funny. But we're going to talk about that with Jeremiah in one of the upcoming shows. That's going to be really-- Yeah, that's an extra episode that we're going to record in two weeks from now. So it should be live beginning of March. And then, final thing, we have our never-normal masterclass coming up as Stephen. True. Yeah. April 20th. April 20th. And it's-- Engend. Engend, yeah, absolutely. Engend, yeah. I always make the mistake. It's going to be looking-- I know. --through and forward into the future. It's going to be-- And it's really challenging. I mean, what is the world going to look like in 2040? And I will talk about strategy and technology. You're going to talk about what customers are going to look at. I'm still going to have customers in 2040, Stephen. Yeah, customers. And then we have Yitzk-Kramit. who will talk about talent and people in 2040 and we have Rick Feta to do our workshops around each of the topics. So our goal is to look far into the future but also make sure that you have something concrete to take home and land back in 2026. Half of our seats are sold in two weeks time. So we got more than 80 people now joining us. So if you want to be part of this unique moment, we will only do this once the 2040 master class so feel free to join on April 20th. In? Yes. Absolutely. Does it include a ticket to the moon in 2040? That's the price that we're going to give to one of the participants. Exactly. But you spoiled it now. How are we going to find something here? Sorry. Maybe it's okay. Like karaoke bar. Yeah, karaoke bar on the moon. Steve's karaoke bar on the moon. That's what we all started. I'll do the drone. Yeah, you did the drone show. We only serve Peter Spaghetti in the karaoke bar on the moon. All right. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining this episode to our audience. Thank you for listening. Thank you for all the nice compliments that we hear from you. Month after month. Feel free to share it on your social media, talk to your friends and family and colleagues about our podcast. We would love to grow our community and you can help us with that. So thank you very much and we'll see each other soon with a special episode with Jeremiah Ouyang, the world's specialist on AI agents. See you then. Bye-bye. Cheers, guys. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Radar by Nexworks. If you enjoyed the show, please tell your friends and colleagues about it and don't forget to give us a review score which really helps to boost this podcast. We'll be back with a new episode of Radar next month. Meanwhile, to stay in touch, please follow our podcast and go to our website nexworks.com to subscribe to our newsletter. Take care.