Quitting the PhD

[Music] Hello and welcome to today's episode of Chances and Challenges, the BDHS Podcast. I'm your host, Zabinusheva. Today we are dealing with a somewhat delicate topic of graduate training, that is quitting the PhD. Not to finish the PhD is sometimes seen as a failure. I'd like to put it in a different way though. Quitting the PhD can very well be a most thoughtful and reasonable decision. If we're looking at the BGHS, we see that about 28% of BGHS members don't complete their dissertations in the BGHS for different reasons. We can sort them roughly into three groups. A small group of Doctorary researchers leaves Bielfeld University and the BGHS to complete the PhD at a different university. Perhaps the supervisor changes the university and takes the doctoral researcher with them. All the doctoral researchers themselves get a job at a different university and continue the PhD there. Another group never really starts the PhD. They apply for a study place in the doctoral program and are admitted by the doctoral committee of the faculty, but maybe they don't get funding for the PhD or they get a job outside university and so actually they don't really start doing the research. This is also a rather small group. The people of the largest group however quit doing the PhD at some point in the doctoral process. Again, there are very different reasons for that. Perhaps the PhD funding comes to an end and they start to work elsewhere. Or doing research or the topic itself don't seem to make sense to them any longer. And this is the group today's episode of chances and challenges is mainly dealing with. And I have a guest who's kind of an expert in this topic because she's done it herself. Marisa Matis, a former member of the BGHS who's willing to share her experiences with the quitting process as I will call it. Hello Marisa, thanks for being here. Hi Zavina, thanks for having me. Marisa started the PhD about four years ago and she managed to get a scholarship of the Huntsburg Foundation. Quite recently she quit the PhD at Bielefeld University and started to work in the International Office at the University of Siegen. Marisa, what exactly is your job in Siegen? Yeah, so my job is to take care of international students, so to say. The exchange students that go to Siegen, they have to go for a very bureaucratic process and that's why I'm there for them. So before they arrive, we plan also event for our orientation. We also help them find place to stay or some documents, like also with our standard we heard them, exchange. Yeah, the office for immigrants, I guess. We have to do a lot with this. So everything that involves the exchange students here, that's what I do. Okay, yeah, thank you. So when you look back some four years, how did it come that you started the PhD? Yeah, I guess so because my motives were a bit like different from most people because I wanted to come to Germany. That was my main goal. And I did my master's in Brazil where I come from and it was quite good. I have to say it wasn't very like research focused was more because my background is economics also, so it was more analysis, more economic analysis and that's what I really like doing. But I want to come to Germany and I thought the best way or the easiest way many many. It was to do a PhD because yeah, that was my thought back then. And I have to say that I come from an academic family. So I thought, okay, yeah, that's my path, so to say. So I start researching PhDs in Germany. I also apply for some positions in economics. And then I start to think what I want to research about and then I want to do something with gender studies. And then I start researching literally gender studies Germany research something like that. And then the best came up, okay. Because they just started a new research project at TIFF, the global concentrations of women's and gender rights or something like that, where my former supervisor was a PI. And I went there. I bought a ticket on one way ticket to Germany. That was 2020 like me. The pandemic was still like, well, it's it. And then I bought a ticket here and then I went there. Then I introduced myself and then I asked her if she could supervise me. She was like, yeah, we can talk about it. She never had a super a page these students before. Okay. Yeah. So it was very nice. We went in contact and I sent my project to her and she revealed. And then we had a lot of Zoom meetings by then because there was already 2021 beginning of 2021 and we were in lockdown. And yeah. And then she accepted me and then I applied for big guys and then I was also accepting 2021 October 2021. And I was like, okay, I'm doing my PhD yet now. Okay. Yeah. This is a really quite unusual. Yeah. But I guess that's also explains why I am not doing PhD anymore. Yeah. And when you when you started your PhD, you also started to find the funding, right? Yes. So there was also something unusual because, well, I didn't have any funding. I didn't have a position. And I really didn't know how this works because in Brazil, you mostly do with a scholarship. So I didn't really know that it was this option of working here. But anyway, so I start working at outside of the university and that didn't give me much time of doing my first year. I was just doing some courses, some seminars and I was not leaving Bidafeds. Also, it was a very complex, a lot of things going on this first year. So I had to commute to Bidafeds and then I was making not making too much money. So the, yeah, situation was not ideal. And that's why I applied for my scholarship one year later. I actually applied in the middle of the year, but the process takes a while and I had to also do some changes on my project. And then finally, I actually, in October 2022, I got a scholarship from the university for five or six months, the COVID. It's the same year. Yeah. And then while I was having this, I got my office here and then that's why I really started because I moved to Bidafeds and then I really started working here on my project, so to say. And then one year later, 2023, October, I got my high school degree. Yeah. And then I was like, yeah, now I'm doing this. Yeah. But then, well, I did. I had fun with other parts of the university process, not the research itself. Yeah. Yeah. So when did you first get a head doubts about doing the PhD? To be honest, I always had doubts. Okay. Yeah. That was not because that's what I said. My goal was to be in Germany. Was not really to have a doctor title or something. It was not my, I really wanted, like when I see my career, I really wanted to be a professor because as I said, my parents are professing and I really like this part of the university job, so to say. But research was never my thing. I'm not sure if because I was come from economic, economic spread ground and then I was in sociology and there was also kind of challenging for me. Yeah. Because well, it was my second language. It was another topic. It was another country. It was so many things going on. And I always had this doubt. But I always thought, okay, but my goal is to be a professor. So I'm going to stay. And then I realized how hard is to be a professor in Germany? Yeah. And then I started like rethinking what was my idea because I was like, okay, to be a professor here, you have to do your habilitations, which is another research after four year of research. And I was like, well, not sure if I'm really sure I don't want to do that. So I started like, okay, so what can I do to not do this PhD or like what were my alternatives that don't that I do not have necessarily to have a PhD. And then I guess also was when I realized that in Germany, you don't need to have to have a PhD, to have a good job or to work in an institution or a non-profit institution or at universities also as, I don't know, a member of the administration also at the faculties, depending on what your tests are. And I was like, well, now we are talking. Now I am seeing a way out of this. And also what really helped was that I was very engaged in other activities at university and not in the research. So as a doctorate representative of BGIS, I started doing another activities and text that was really, really, really much, much more fun for me. And when I started like thinking more seriously about quitting, I started searching for jobs. And then I saw jobs that I could do that was like really close to what I did as a doctor, doctor representative. And I was, oh, that's a possibility for me then. Because, well, I'm telling the story as was this line. It wasn't. There was times that I was like, I'm quitting this. I cannot do this anymore. And there was days that I was like, no, this is my goal. I wanted to be here. And then there was very ups and downs. There was days that really, oh, this makes sense. I really like doing this. There was days that were, I was like, okay, I cannot do this anymore. So it was a very, yeah, a super struggle process. And I was in doubt. And I talked a lot about with my friends, which was very nice. But yeah, that's my question. Who supported you in this quitting process? Yeah, most of my friends, which is also, I have to explain, most of my friends I did in the university. And my, all my support group comes from here. So I was also struggling with the idea that I wouldn't have them every day. Because when you're, especially here in Vegas, we, I shared office with my friends and we had lunch every day. And I met my partner at the big, at the big area. So it was everything my life was here literally. And that was one of my main struggles. Like how to this identity as academic will impact in my personal relationships. Yeah, which was very, very, very strongly connected with the university. And then I, I, I talked to them about it. I was like, one part of me is quite sure that this is not my way. But the other part is quite scared because that's all I know in Germany, actually, you know. And they were like very supportive and very, they assured me that this was not, wasn't going to change how, how we, our friendship or how they, they see me because I think this is very quite a thing. Like when you're in academic, you are, yeah, your identity is very much, how can you say, share it in this environment and you kind of doubt yourself, like, no, what we're do, who am I without those people? We'll be friends if I'm not here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine. This is a hot struggle. Yeah. And then, but what I did, I guess I started like a little bit slowly. I was here before every day. And then I was like, three times a week and two times a week. And to see like, I mean, I don't know, but for some people, a cut must be like very sharp. And then you just, oh, yeah, today I'm here, today I'm not here, but for me, I needed some time to, yeah, to, um, yeah, and then I, yeah, and then I started talking to my friends and then we were, they were saying like that I shoot, that I shouldn't worry about it, that they would also support me a lot. And then I talked to my parents, which was a very also hard. Part because, well, they were not very supportive because they were, for them is quite, as I say, obviously you would finish this, you know, and, but then I was like, yeah, sorry, it's not my thing. But then we like, of course, they saw that I wasn't having to make no sense to continue something that was not make me happy, but it was very hard. I have enjoyed it. That was the hardest part, I guess. Yeah, yeah, so you were really a bit between the chairs, let's say, yeah, yeah, it was, yeah. And how did you proceed with this decision-making? As I said, it was slow, very slow. I actually decided at the beginning of last year, I guess. Oh, yeah, I mean, the idea came at the 2024. But as I said, this ups and downs, I want to do it. I don't want to do it. And then I start looking for jobs very slowly to see what was there and how can I, how would I go in my first interviews also? Well, because German is not my first language and I had to do everything German. So it was quite a process of, okay, so I'm doing this. I have to have a plan. So I started also doing more German classes here at the university. Not really like the courses, but also like writing, academic writing, German. Some, some things that will make me more prepared, so to speak of this. And then I start going to interviews. And I was like, okay, that was not too good. But I mean, I'm being called for interviews. So I start like going, being more confident in the process too. But I still apply for the, I still renovate, not renovate, but my semester for the summer semesters. I couldn't just leave. Yeah, I was like, I wasn't here anymore in the summer semester. I wasn't not working on my project, but I couldn't just leave your university. So, so quickly, yeah, so you were still enrolled. I was still enrolled in the summer semester, but I was mainly doing the German course, as I said, and applying for jobs. But I still like to have this as a, I don't know, safe point or something. And, yeah, and then I finally got my job in the middle of summer. Awesome. And in the winter semesters, actually, I just, just now for two months, or, yeah, I didn't enroll back in. It was so hard. I don't know, I was already working. And then I have to ask for my ex-metrical, and I was like, oh, I couldn't do it. I was like, oh, I need this so weird. Because, yeah, it was a very, most of my time in Germany. I was here in this university. Yeah. It was really like a, like a cut. Yeah, it was like a good breakup. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that this is hard. If you stick so close to the people here at the university, I mean, for us Germans, it's a bit different because we have our people here. But you got the people in Germany, you got to know here at the university. And, yeah, so this was not only university, but also kind of life. Yeah, it's still, it's still many of parts of my life as well. My best friends, I still here. And it's still, I mean, I am connected, but not too much. So, but if they tell me something, oh, something happened, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you know, remember this, this, and this. I can still relate it, but not relate it anymore because this every day, part of the university, I'm not here anymore. But if you are thinking about Quentin, I can just say that friends, they are staying now. And then we keep our, although I change seats, it's actually, but I still have here, beautiful, that's my main point, so. Yeah. But I mean, a lot of people are living like that. Yeah. So a lot of people are commuting and so on. So this is a very normal city in life. Yeah. And Germany is a quite small country too. Commute. It's not like Brazil. So everything's fine. That's right. Yeah. Looking back at this complete process, what did you learn about yourself? That's a very interesting and important question because I guess the whole process was a learning process. And I learned to really look at what I wanted and how I wanted things and not to look at what other people were, people were thinking. Because this whole PhD thing and being a PhD student, there is some status behind it. And it's also hard to, to, was, for me, a little bit hard to try to make people understand why I didn't want to be this anymore, or maybe to convince people that this might be not my thing. And it's not because it's wrong, it's just because it's not mine. And also it was very important for me to learn is that it's never too late. Because I was quite in the, yeah, middle, also phase of my PhD. And I also thought about like, okay, I also wrote something. I already did my interviews. Like, what I, I'm just leaving everything behind, but it's not, I didn't leave anything behind. This whole four years here, I learned a lot as not only academic, but also professional, like personally growth, I also had. So this also, I take with me whatever, whenever I go. So it's not a waste of time. No, not at all, not at all. I hear, I mean, I was, I present my research as some research class. I present my research in German in some Hunsbroker meetings. So this also brings, like taught me a lot. And then I, I was, I had this role as doctor representative. So I had to learn how to speak with groups of people or different groups of people. And that's really helped in my job also now, because I had very different groups of students that I had to take care of. And yeah, so, yeah. Well, I think this is kind of a relief, right? Yeah, of course. I guess when I look back, when I was in the middle of the storm, so to say, I had very hard time, time, trying to picture this moment right now, where everything is like, yeah, I got the job. And then I'm not at the university anymore. And everything's fine. And it was very hard for me to picture this time. But well, now it's here. And then you see that the struggle was, yeah, now worth it, because I don't think any struggle is worth it. But it was, it made, we had, it had a, it makes sense now. Yeah. Yeah. So what you need is that you develop a new vision for your life. Yes, in a way. Yes, you have to really understand what you like and what you don't like. And what you want to do. And where do you see yourself doing every day? Because this is very important. And if it is something that is not so prestigious as a PhD, you have to go for it. And then don't, don't, don't listen to people. Like, oh, you're already in academia, academia and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it is not for everyone. Yeah. That's also where I learn too. It's not for everyone. And it's okay. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you're worth less than those people. Yeah. It's not a failure or something like that. No, but it's a process and it's a learning process. Yes. Everything. And it simply takes a different path. Yeah. And I think that's very normal. The people with, there's some people like straight after the master knows that they want to do it. But there's some people who want to experiment something. I have never had, I have never worked with international students before. Biggest, so how would I know that I want to work with those kind of group with those groups? How I was always in one bubble and how can I know that it was like the other bubble was much more interested in me. Yeah. Yeah. My experience is the other way around. So to say, I never had any funding for my PhD, well, it's really a lot of years ago, but I never had any funding. So I worked at university, but rather in science management. And there were times and also outside of university. And there were times when I had the offer to have a job. And I really thought about, and this was not a fixed term job, but it was really a job for, you know, for life. And I really thought about that. And I decided differently because I knew if I take the job outside university, I would not be able to finish my PhD. And I really wanted that. So this was quite the other way around. But both ways valuable and both ways can simply be right for the person. Yes. Yeah. And I never, I don't say I would never do my PhD anymore. I mean, I don't know. I for one and a half years ago, I didn't expect to be in Zigen working with international students. And I don't know how life would be in two years or three years. What I know is that at this decision, I had to make now. It makes sense now. And I cannot just not do it because someone, like people are saying, you have to continue your PhD. This is the path you have to go. This is the right path or not. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is an issue all the time, I think, because people have the idea that a career goes in a straight way up. Yeah. You start at some point and it goes straight away up. But most careers don't work like that. They are going in circles. And, you know, so you follow a path and there are a lot of options. Yes. There are also obstacles, but there are also a lot of options. And it is always a question which option you take and which option you don't take. Yeah. What is, what makes most sense for you in the moment? Yeah. And I think this is also one lesson about life. Everything you won't have. I mean, everything you cannot have. And sometimes it's about making choices and decisions that, yeah, they have to make sense for you because that's the life you are leaving. And then I cannot, I just couldn't just try to adjust for something that it wasn't for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps it was also the topic of the dissertation or the way to work on that or something like that. And perhaps you find something else. Yeah. I guess this different background, I guess, in different disciplines was also, I didn't thought at the beginning, but was really a point that I was really struggling because, well, I learned something differently. And then that's, yeah, to learn, to de-learn it. So to say, it was kind of a struggle. And for me, something really didn't make sense because I knew it in another way. And I wanted to keep in that way, but this wasn't the way the sociologist maybe. Yeah. Yeah. It is the different disciplinary cultures, but also the different national science culture. And so you had to deal with a lot of issues. Yeah. And new things. And sometimes, yeah, some people might learn easily and fast. And before other people is especially, I guess, international researchers. So you come here and then you have to learn a new language. And then you have to do your research in a different language. And new country, new people, new educational system. And yeah, it was a lot. And then, but yeah, it's never, it's never lost learning. That's for sure. It's something that you really, you take for, yeah, you take for your life and choose what you do with what you learn. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So what would you recommend to someone who has doubts about continuing the PhD? Yeah. I would definitely recommend that you look to yourself and not try to close a little bit for what people are saying. And then really look and be honest with you. Like, this is why you, why are you doing this for? This is really for you, because you really believe in your project or in your career path. And this is, and regardless of the difficulties, you would do it. Yeah. I mean, or you're doing this just because you started, then you have to go to the end. And at the beginning, it can be very hard, but don't, don't let go. I mean, if you really don't want to do it, then just, yeah, go for it. And then it's not going to be in your first job interview that you're going to find a job. Not every day is going to be, not every day is going to be easy. But if it is the real or the right decision for you, then you just have to believe in it and then go for it and really try to focus on yourself and not really listen to the outside. Yeah. Yeah. And anyway, you have to accept that there are ups and downs. Yeah. This is life. This is life. And sometimes it's not the first job you're going to get. It's not going to be the best job of your life or the dream job. But it's, yeah, it's a way for the path that you want to go. Now, and if the PG is not this path, I mean, because for me, well, it didn't make sense to finish this and then find a job because I knew this wasn't my path. Yeah. So for me, it was like, okay, so I still stick with it for two more years. And then I have to go through this journey again. Or so, yeah, I mean, just ask yourself, okay, if I'm finishing, then what would I do? Would you like go for an NGO and do a job that didn't require a PhD in the first place? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Dear Marisa, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and giving insights into your own quitting process. I wish you all the best for the future. And I'm absolutely convinced that you will find a very, very good way. Thank you. And I hope I helped everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No doubt. No doubt. Thank you. For me, it was great to talk to Marisa. And I hope you liked it as much. I think Marisa showed very impressively that quitting the PhD might be a good thing if you realize that doing a PhD doesn't satisfy or make you happy. And I think she gave some real good advice. If you have doubts about continuing the PhD, have a deep look inside and try to find out why you're doing it. Look out for good friends or other people to reflect the doubts and help you get through the struggle. And don't worry, your friends and family will still love you if we're or without a PhD. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with your colleagues and friends. And as always, we'd like to hear about your thoughts. If you have any questions, comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at bgs@uni/bilifeld.de. Thank you for tuning in. And until next time, optimism. Have faith in yourself and make the best of the chances and challenges on your academic journey.