Quiet Quitting: Why Women Are Emotionally Checking Out of Their Marriage

Modern women, millennial women, are quiet quitting their marriages. These women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave. So why did this concept resonate with so many women? The term quietly quitting gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing. The mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids, I feel like I'm treated like I'm Google. You're speaking for a lot of women right now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking all the women are saying, aren't we managing everything? Yeah. For the longest time, I was like, do you even like me? Wow. I'm getting emotional. Women in midlife are saying to their husbands, you haven't changed, and I'm evolving. You're not growing, so this relationship's not growing. They're stuck in stasis, and the women are ready for their second act. Look at all the amens. Hello there, and welcome to the Oprah podcast. I'm so glad to be with you all. So last fall. Maybe you saw this article, or your friend, or your sister may have forwarded it to you. Everybody was forwarding this article to everybody else. It was called The Women Quietly Quitting Their Husbands. It was in New York Magazine's The Cut, and it just ricocheted across the internet, hitting a real nerve for many women. It was about women who are over the age of 40 who, instead of going through the drama, the expense, and the ordeal of divorce, have started to just walk away, back away emotionally, but did stay in their marriages. They quietly quit their husbands. And I remember reading this and thinking, I know a lot of women who are doing this. Watch this. Women are quietly quitting their marriages. That's the headline of the Big Cut article. That's got everybody talking. So I just learned about quietly quitting your marriage. That is a new term to me, but I do understand it, because there is something significant that is happening once women turn 40 and up, that they're like, enough is enough. Did you see that article about women quiet quitting their husbands? So instead of getting a divorce, they're just like emotionally checking out of the marriage and keeping the rest of their life intact. It is genuinely shocking how many men are so passive and just like self-consuming, that they don't even register when she has totally withdrawn. I've seen a lot of talk on this app about women of a certain age who are quietly quitting their marriages. They're staying married, but basically they're like, forget you, I'm doing me. Well, that's the summary. Monica Corcoran Harrell is the journalist who wrote that article for The Cut. Monica's here. Where did the idea come from? It was so interesting. I was on a call with my editor, and she said, we're doing a package. We're doing a package on midlife divorce. Do you have any ideas like people fighting over custody or how you preserve your money? And I actually whispered to her, what about women who are divorced but not divorced? And she said, what are you talking about? They're secretly filing for divorce? And I said, no, they're acting like they're divorced, but they're staying married. Because I had heard women, you know, I'd go out for a girls' night, and nobody was in a rush to get home. Or women were saying, I'm going away on vacation. And I'd say, what about your husband? He's not coming. Or I just found that husbands weren't coming up as often in conversation. And I realized these couples were almost like it reminded me of toddlers when they're in parallel play. They're playing with toys next to each other, but they're not engaging. Yeah. And you wrote about this. I was so struck in the article when you wrote that your mother didn't speak to your father for a year, and he didn't notice. It's so shocking. And I was a kid, and I remember sitting at the dinner table, and my mom would nudge me past the salt. My mom uses a lot of salt. Her blood pressure is through the roof. Yeah. And I was like 10 years old, and I would pass it to her. And I understood that something was going on, that they weren't getting along. But I didn't realize that they hadn't talked in so long. And she would ask your father if he wants his shirts to go to the cleaners. Yes. And you would ask your father, and then he would give you the shirts and never think anything of it. You know, I was 10 years old, but I recently talked to her about it. And she said, after a year, my dad said, is something wrong? He hadn't even noticed. The other thing that struck me in that article, you said that you could see the rage in your mother's narrowed eyes and her gazing at him sometimes from behind, and you could feel it in her chicken cacciatore. Yes. Yes. What did you mean by that? I just knew she was angry. I mean, as a kid, you can pick up on emotions. Yeah. It's interesting. I talked to her the other night, and she said, you know, I was hurt, and then the hurt turned to hate. Wow. So I probably missed out on the hurt. Maybe I didn't recognize that, but I definitely saw the hate. Yeah. Or certainly resentment. Yes. Certainly resentment. Well, the reason the cacciatore line struck me so is that it reminded me, and I think everyone who read that article, that even when you think you're hiding it, it comes through in other ways. You know, you felt it, but you didn't know what you were feeling. So what has been the reaction from readers? The reaction has been very emotional. The reaction has been, we're doing this podcast about it. Yeah. Yeah. I still get messages from women every day. In fact, I just heard from a woman who told me that she set up a private Instagram account so that she could find community. And she said she was so ashamed because she's a psychologist. And she said, I should not be quietly quitting, but I need to meet other women. So the reaction, it continues. It hasn't stopped. If anything, it seems to have grown. Yeah. And how do you feel being? The woman who unleashed this for us. I feel great about it. I really do. I knew I was opening a Pandora's box, but when Pandora opened that box, what she left in the box was hope. And I like to think that this is maybe going to hearken some change. And I also want to say, I feel like as a kid, I couldn't do anything for my mom. And in writing this article, it felt like I made up for not being there for her. But isn't it true, too, that husbands are quiet quitting within the marriage also? Yes. I think in a lot of cases, they're reacting. I don't know that they're initiating. And I think some men just live quietly quitting. Mm-hmm. They're just not as engaged in their relationships. Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist. You've seen her here on the Oprah podcast several times before. She's a New York Times bestselling author. And relationship expert. Her brand new book is The Balancing Act. Welcome back to the podcast, Nedra. And Julie Monano is a therapist and the bestselling author of Secure Love, Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime. We welcome you, Julie. Okay. What do you think this idea of quiet quitting, why is it now just resonating in such a way that we haven't been able to, formally articulate before? Well, most people don't quietly quit their partners. They quietly quit emotional disconnection. So I like to think of emotional disconnection as the disease, and quiet quitting as the late-stage symptom of the disease. And when I say emotional disconnection, I also mean just the pain of continuing to reach for something and still ending up feeling hurt and alone. There's a quote I love, a Sue Johnson quote, that the only thing couples are ever really asking, each other, is, "Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?" And when the answer to that question is no enough of the time, and it can be over, you know, small things like needing comfort after a long day and just getting distracted responses or sharing something important and feeling dismissed, these little small things accumulate over time, and they can actually do as much damage to a relationship as big things like affairs. So repeat that question, because I know that, that, that resonated with a lot of people. The only question you're ever asking in your marriage is, "Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?" Hmm. Emotionally. Would you agree with that, Nedra? Yes. And I'd say that the term "quietly quitting" gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing. I don't know if my grandparents had that term and many other couples that we know who shared separate bedrooms or separate lifestyles. We didn't have a term for it, but now, now that we do, it's like, "Oh, yeah, it's me. It's this other person." It's, you know, we can think of so many people that this applies to, and as we're seeing, people are connecting with it. Yeah, people were just checked out. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because they weren't getting what they want. And what do you think that women are not getting from their spouses that leads them to actually quiet quit? It's the support. It is the emotional connection. It is the, "Do you like me?" It's, "Do you care?" No, "Do you even see me?" "Do you even see me? Do you like me? Do you hear what I'm saying?" We often, in relationships, think about how it was in the beginning when someone was courting us, and there were all these signs that they were interested, and five, ten years later, we don't see any of that. Yeah. And so now, people are like, "Am I even here for you? Do you see me? Where is this relationship? What is it now?" Yeah, well, you know what that is? I used to say this all the time that I found, in every guest, that, you know, you're like, "What's going on?" the experience of people wanting to know, do you see me? do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? And I think that that is a fundamental issue in every relationship. Do you see me? Do you hear me? And does what I say mean anything? And I think if you're in a relationship with somebody and you no longer feel seen or heard, it means you also don't feel validated or valued. And that's sort of it, right? What's happening. Would you say? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Everything I do begins with intention. You become exactly what you believe is possible. Especially the Oprah podcast. You're doing good, Aiden. I believe when people share their personal journeys with authenticity. Never thought of it like that. I love that you've never thought of it that way before. And with intention, something beautiful happens. We recognize pieces of our own lives in theirs. We realize that actually helps, right? We are not alone. Life is a journey and how we navigate it matters. That's why I am so excited to welcome our friends at GEICO as the official insurance partner for the Oprah podcast. For 90 years, GEICO has been there for the highs and the lows with people through life's exciting moments and supporting them when the road takes an unexpected turn. GEICO's protection has given customers the peace of mind to keep moving forward. And that support matters at every point along the way. A first car, a new home, a teenager learning to drive, a delay, a breakdown, a claim. These are the moments that remind us why it matters to feel protected before life changes course. And GEICO is there to make the journey more manageable, to help guide you with insurance designed to keep you covered through it all. Because life happens in ways we can't always predict. And with the right support, we keep driving forward. And that, dear listener, is everything. So I want to bring in some of our audience members who are going through this right now. So, Handy, how are you? Hi. I'm doing well. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. You look pretty in that green dress. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So what's going on? Well, I am here. I can relate to every single thing that was said here. Because? I've been married to my husband for 19 years. We have two teenage daughters, a senior in high school and a junior in high school. And I saw a quote a while back and it said, do you want to be loved like this for the rest of your life? And the answer is no. And so for the past three years, I've been on this journey of tapping into me, healing me and going within the stillness and silence within. And the more I grow, the more I'm getting pushback from my husband. And the more I express, I want to be emotionally connected to you. This is what I desire. This is what I need from a partner. It is a dismissal, a denying that I'm doing that or a twist. And how does a dismissal work? How does a dismissal show itself or manifest itself? Does he say you're lying or I don't see what you're saying? You have a cush life. You have a good life. I'm here. I said, yes, you're physically here, but you don't know anything that's going on in my life. We've slept in separate bedrooms for years. It started out because of snoring. And it was a grief for me because my husband, I felt like that time at night, like we could come together and talk. And that was a real grief for me. So I've reached kind of the end of this chapter with my girls soon to go off to college. And I want to connect with my husband. And he says things like, why can't you just coexist and be married? Why does everything have to be a Disney movie? And I'm not wanting Disney. I'm wanting connection. Yeah. All right. Well, you know what? I was just thinking, and as I was preparing for the show today, I was just thinking, I was just thinking, I was just thinking, I was all of you who are speaking about your personal relationships. I often wonder this. What happens when you go home? First of all, I think it's really courageous of you, brave of you, bold of you to share this with the world. And so many other women in particular, and also men listening are seeing themselves in your story. But what happens when you go home after you shared this with all of us? Well, everything I'm saying here, I've said before, I've said before, I've said before. And one thing I want to be clear about is that I love my husband so much. And I see with a little bit of effort how we could connect and be that stable family for our girls. But I cannot do it alone. So I have to speak my truth because I just need more. Are you and your friends talking about this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. The way Monica described in the article, are you all talking about it? Yes, especially in my age group. I'm 44. And our kids are, you know, flying the nest to go off to college. And so we're about to be in this next chapter. And it's an uneasy thing. Like, what does that look like? So what's your question for our experts, for Nedra or Julie? I have just tried every approach possible. And it's always met with a block, with glimmers of showing up and that there's love, there, and that he wants the same thing. But unless I'm happy handy, things, if I'm not happy handy, things get wobbly. And I just want to know for me, what can I do that perhaps I haven't said or tried before? You know, maybe my approach is wrong. You know, you asked the question, do I want to be loved like this? And I was hearing a different question. Am I being loved? Right. Am I being cared for? What does care look like in this relationship? Has there been any conversations, not about love, because he's saying, I love you. Look, you have a home. You have these things. What you're talking about is the care. Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel connected. I don't feel attuned. I don't feel cared for. Here are things that would make me feel cared for in this relationship. And Nedra also, isn't the important question, am I being loved? Because your point is, from his point of view, he may say, I'm showing you, I love you because look, I pay the bills or you have a house or you are living this cushy life. But isn't the question, am I being in the love? Am I being loved the way I need? I need. And that can evolve in a, in a 19 year marriage. You know, I've been married 16 years and the things that I've needed over the years have shifted during different periods of time. And so, yeah, in relationships and friendships, like we grow and change. And so the things that make you feel loved and cared for maybe 10 years ago, like that security, that was really important at one point. But what you need now is this emotional part that's not being met. So having more conversations about that. And also it sounds like you've done a lot. And I wonder if there is space for, do I want to continue in this way and be patient with him growing? Or is there something else that I need to consider here? Right. Yeah, I feel that Elizabeth Winkler says we don't ever step in the same river twice. So we are ever evolving. And I say growth is essential in a relationship. And I think that you sang being patient with, and I think that's a beautiful thing. And, you know, we have this window left before our youngest goes off to school. So that's really beautiful. Thank you. Julie? Yeah. So the goal here, the end game is emotional connection. That's what needs to happen for the relationship to work. And so now we have to work backward from there and say, well, what's getting in the way? And 100% of the time when I'm working with couples, the very same thing is getting in the way. And it's these negative communication cycles they're getting stuck in when they try to talk about the problem. So you bring the problem to him and you're like, look, I'm dying over here, I'm alone, help me out. And then he hears criticism, that taps into his shame. And he doesn't know how to talk about that 'cause he never learned how. And so what he does is he says something to push you away, blames you, whatever, then you feel dismissed. So we've got to get you guys out of that cycle. And what needs to happen first is he's got to be open to learning how to start talking, to start speaking vulnerably. And what if he isn't? If he isn't, then we have to go, okay, where do we go from there? So the first thing is, you know, there are a few different things you can try. One is what can really help, and it's not a guarantee, of course, there's no relationship advice out there that's a guarantee, is instead of sending the message, here's what you're getting wrong, here's what you're getting wrong, you don't want to get help, you don't want to get help, lean into the resistance, lean in and say, "Listen, I understand you must have really good reasons for not wanting to get help. Something is threatening about that. I don't know what it is, but I'm willing to hold that with you and try to understand it even when I disagree." 'Cause of course you disagree. You and I both know that you need help for this to work, right? But sometimes when you can just kind of lean in is you're wanting more validation, right? Around things that he doesn't see eye to eye with you on. So if we can do that and model that and say, "You know what? When I'm willing to understand more about what is so scary for you about getting help, help me understand." That's basically you saying, "Look, I'm here with you. Let's do this as a team." And a lot of times when people feel that understanding and validation, their nervous systems do start to feel safer and open up. - I'm not thinking he's gonna open up about that, but okay. I'm not thinking that somebody who says enjoy your cushy life is willing to now share with you what his fears are about. - I've seen it a thousand times. I do this, yeah. - You know more than we all do. So there you go. - You know it. I'm telling you. What I have found over and over is that when couples learn to do vulnerability, the relationship symptoms do start to ease up. - Okay. I'm hoping that does. Okay. Thank you. Keisha's here. You're living this in real time, right? - Yes, very much so. - And posting on TikTok, trying to help other women going through it. - Yeah, absolutely. - Tell us what's happening with you. - Yeah, well, about back in May, I think I like to say the pyramid pause came and tapped me on the shoulder. And said, "Keisha, marriage-" - Well, that's what pyramid pause is to do. - It will. It'll tap you on the shoulder. - Yeah. - And it said, "Keisha, marriage shouldn't feel this way." - Yeah. - So for 16 years, I had been bridging the emotional gap in our relationship. If a hard conversation needed to be had, I was the one facilitating it. If repair needed to be made, I was usually the one to start the repair, even if it wasn't my fault. And I came to him with that and talked about my grievances. 'Cause this even extended into how we operated in our home. If something in our home needed a decision, it was me making that decision. So I came to him with that. And for the most part, he didn't disagree. But the main thing I got from him was, "I don't know how to fix it." So I asked him if he'd be open to moving into separate rooms. 'Cause I needed time to center myself and figure out what this was gonna look like. And he agreed with that. My hope was in that time period that he would come to me, that he would, you know, bridge the gap. You know, I had spent 16 years bridging the gap. I wanted him to, I don't know why I thought this, but be my knight in shining armor and say, "Hey, I'm gonna fight for this. "I'm gonna fight for you. "Here's what I'm gonna do. "These are the things that I've started." And in the time period after we separated, I got primarily silence, avoidance. - Separated within the same house? - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah. So we separated, went into another room. And he. - Yeah. - He did not bridge that gap. And so, it got to a point where I realized that I needed to emotionally separate. I needed, I was, 'cause I was devastated. I was grieving what I thought my marriage was. I was waking up crying, going to sleep crying, starting all over everything. I was just fully just devastated. So- - In grief. In grief of that. - In grief. - In grief of that. So something you said that struck me, I don't know if you resonated with you all too, and you all listening to us right now, you said, "I wanted him to be my knight in shining armor." And I'm wondering if that's part of the problem, is that everyone has this vision, or a lot of people have this vision of the knight in shining armor that we have an idea of who should be in this, this person should be in this relationship. - Yeah, I heard a little bit of rom-com love, right? - Yeah, rom-com. - Yeah, I want this problem. And then he swoops in and he figures it out. And he saves the day. And we see that over and over on TV. - Yeah. - But in real life, people don't figure things out without us telling them. Sometimes the separation that we encourage pushes us further apart. And what could be more helpful is being really clear with people. It sounds like you reached a place of burnout, right? When you're carrying a relationship for so many years, and it's like, okay. When are you gonna jump in? And this person is like, you've been doing it. So you're 100% and they're zero, or you're 90 and they're 10. You know, they're like, what's wrong? I've been doing 10% all along. And you're like, nope, I'm going to 20. So it's, you're at 10 and I'm at 20, now what? - That's essentially what happened. - Yeah, yeah. - Are you still grieving within the relationship? Are you still grieving? - Not as much. I feel like I've successfully detached to some degree. Of course, I have moments where I kind of mourn things. At the end of the day, I don't think this is gonna work 'cause I can't be in a marriage by myself. - Everybody went. Amen, Keisha, amen, amen, amen, amen to that. Yes, you wanted to say, Julie. - Well, I mean, there's a lot of layers here. I think that to, first of all, I think you're doing the absolute best job you can with what you have, you know? And the grief is basically your nervous system saying there's been a death here, and the death is the loss of what I had hoped this relationship would be. And, you know, there is, it's hard, you know that, but there is a lot of empowerment on the other side of that because being in a situation where you're reaching for something over and over and not getting it is very disempowering. And so I just, you know, I'm happy that you are able to get through the painful part. - Absolutely. Disempowering is a great word because for the longest time I was like, do you even like me? - Yeah. - You know, why would you let me carry all of this on my own? And I think it was just, he was just ill-equipped. Honestly, he was just not taught. - He wasn't taught, yeah. - And how does he learn if he has no practice? - That's true, but how does he learn if he doesn't try? There doesn't seem to be willingness there. - They have to be open to learning. - Right. - That's the deal breaker. - Right. - You know. - Does he have the capacity? - That part. - I don't think so. I really don't. - That's a whole 'nother thing. - Yeah. - Yeah. That's a whole 'nother thing. If the person actually doesn't have the capacity to learn or to want to learn or to want to try or to, yeah. - Yeah, so can I ask my question? - Yeah, please do. Go, go. - I really wanna know. - No, go for it. - So we have 15-year-old twins and we've been cohabitating in this way for about, about a year. The plan is eventually to separate completely, but I don't know, I'm getting emotional. I don't know if I'm hurting them by us being in this household together. And they're watching us and we're cordial with one another. There's no animosity, but us being in this house in this way am I hurting my kids by doing it this way? - Yeah, so I, when someone asks me, you know, is this healthy or is this not healthy? The question I always ask is what is your nervous system? How does it stay? So if you're walking around, you know, and your kids are walking around feeling anxious or tense a lot of the time, then that, that is a sign that maybe it's time to consider some other options. You guys seem like you're, you know, in somewhat of an easy environment and things are working. So I think this is a season of your life and you're doing a fantastic job with what you have. - Thank you. - Yeah. - Thank you. - You're welcome. - I do feel that way. - Okay, good. - We've been pretty transparent with them. - Yeah. - For the most part. They're like, look, mom, we just started high school. We're sorry y'all are going through that. But that's really the sentiment. - And you know what? That's a testament to you that your children aren't wanting to take care of you. So you're, you're doing a fantastic job. - Thank you. - Yeah. - Thank you. - I just saw you nod though, Monica, 'cause you were in a household where your mother didn't speak to your dad for a year. And how do you think that impacted you? - So interesting. I got married at 38 and I never thought about this, but the reason I got married so late is because my mom would have left my dad if she had had the financial resources, if she'd been autonomous, she didn't go to college. So without thinking of it, I delayed my marriage until I was fully independent. Having said that, my parents didn't talk at all. And it sounds like you and your husband are really, have it out in the open and your kids, you have a discussion about it. My mom never talked to me about it. So I just had to make my own conclusions. - So that age appropriate communication is valuable. - I just want to share this because this thought just came into my mind as you were speaking. I remember doing an interview with Adele and she was talking about leaving her marriage. And she said, you know, nothing was really wrong. I was just unhappy and he had done nothing. I had done nothing. I was just unhappy. And I wanted my son to have a happy mother. And so I think there's some value in that. I mean, she's Adele, she can leave, she's independent and can do whatever she wants. But I think that there is also some value in showing your children a happy mother. What would you say to that, Nedra? - Saying your parents happy is a gift that some of us do not get to experience, especially happily in love with not even their other parent, but someone. Just that model of what a life is, what a loving home can look like. say for you, it does sound like you're in an amicable situation. So it's not stressful to the kids and it's beautiful that you're having that open communication and also them seeing you happy matters. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Jess, I hear you are feeling like you're tired of managing everything too. Exhausted. I think that the mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids and knowing where everybody has to be at every moment alone, didn't really, I didn't realize I was doing it until maybe the last few years. And now he'll ask a question like, where is practice or what are we? And I'm thinking it's the same place every Tuesday for the last six years. How do we not know yet? Come on. I feel like I'm treated like I'm Google. Where is it? How do I get it? You know, and there's this weaponized and competence behind it. You're better at it, so you'll do it. You always do it, so you'll do it. And so I think for me, it's not so much about quiet quitting, maybe the marriage as it is like the role I have in it. I don't, my kids are 19 and 17. Yeah. As you're saying this, I'm thinking, I mean, all the women are saying, aren't we managing everything? Yeah. You know, I just feel like now maybe there's a little bit of time to figure myself out and I'm realizing, wait, I'm not as much of these two and I'm realizing, you know, I'm doing it over here too. You know, this isn't new. People are calling this a phenomenon, but this isn't new because women have been doing this for years. As you were saying earlier, we're just calling it something different. But what feels different about it is that such modern women, millennial women like yourselves are quiet quitting. That's the point of the cut story. Correct, Monica? Yes. These women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave, you know, financially. They have careers. They're staying for their kids. What I found really interesting, and this pertains to modern women, you know, in the past you would say to a boyfriend, you've changed. You're not the person I met. And now women in midlife are saying to their husbands, you haven't changed and I'm evolving. You're not growing. So this relationship's not growing. So that's, I think, one of the biggest challenges in midlife marriage for modern women and husbands. Is that the women have grown. Yes. And in many cases, the men have not. Yes. Yes. They're stuck in stasis and the women are ready for their second act. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Okay. What is your question for Nedra or Julie? My question is, am I withdrawing because we're in an unhealthy spot and something needs to change? Or is it because I've given up doing any vulnerable work? You know, it makes me think of what is your role in other relationships, even outside of this, because I'm hearing a lot of responsibility and taking on duty. So is that your role in the family, your role at work, your role in friendships? Like, how do you step back in a way where you can preserve self in a lot of scenarios? And it sounds like there's been a lot of overgiving at home to the point that people are like, I don't even know, like, what should we do here? Because you've taught people how to treat you. Yeah. Yeah. Hyper independence. It's killed me. Yeah. Yeah. And your kids are 19 and 17 now, you know, 19 and 17, you're working yourself out of that parenting role. So they should pretty much be able to figure out where their own soccer is. Yeah. Right. And sometimes for people to learn the things that we already know, we have to just leave them. When I work with couples, especially with younger kids and the mom is like, oh my gosh, I have to do all these things before he takes the kid. Let him leave the house with a ill-equipped diaper bag. And that's how he learns how many diapers to pack. Yeah. We have to let people fail, drive to the wrong location and let those kids redirect you. And then you'll figure out where soccer is. You'll figure out the entrance, turn your phone off, and you'll figure out where soccer is. You'll figure out where soccer is. You'll figure it out. It's good advice. Drive to the wrong location, really. Don't get there late. It'll be fine. I know. I know. I know you're just, you're thinking, I can't do that. I can't. I can't do that. I really can't. Okay. So Nedra, in your book, The Balancing Act, you write, you say, yes, independence is healthy. It's strength, but hyper independence isn't a strength. Too little dependence on others leaves us feeling alone in our deepest struggles and crises. And this is, this is, this is calling your name, is it not? Totally. Is it also calling your name too? Yeah. All of you. A hundred percent. Yeah. So what do you want to say about that? Hyper independence? Step back. Step back. Get out of the way. It's hard. It is hard. It's hard to let them go to the wrong location when you know the right one. It's hard, but it also, it also lessens the resentment that people won't help you. Well, they can't. True. So true. No one can help you cook a meal if you're like doing everything and you know how to cut this right. And you know, let people mess up, let them figure it out. Get out of the way. If you have to leave the house, if you have to turn your phone off, what, whatever needs to be done for you to allow people to practice the things you already know. Yeah. So give them more things to do without you being in the middle of it. Julie. Yeah. So that I couldn't agree more. We got to get you stepping back. So now we have to figure out, well, what's the block to stepping back. The block is the pain you're going to have to feel temporarily when you jump off that cliff and you're going to have to feel feelings. It's scary, right? You're going to have to feel out of control. Things might go wrong. How are you going to feel? What's the fear in that? You know, what's it going to be like to think your child is, you know, sitting there at soccer for 30 minutes when your husband can't find them. That's terrible feeling. I mean, it'll probably work itself out, but it's probably a fear also, but we got to sit with that. We got to go, okay, hold on. Let me just take a breath here. What, what is this urge about? That's making me want to just jump in and micromanage here and make sure that he's getting everything right. Well, I'm scared of the consequences. I'm scared of my daughter feeling alone and feel some of that pain because you've probably felt that pain in life before your body knows what it's like to feel alone and stranded. You don't want your child to feel that way. Right? And so it's about learning to sit with those emotions and process them. So you don't just have to, you know, try to stuff them down and keep going forward. Agreed. Thank you. My producers in preparing for this show spoke to a number of husbands who said there's another side to the story that they too feel emotionally disconnected because they've been ignored by their wives for the children. They feel disconnected and they feel lonely because all the attention goes to everything except them. So what do you want to say to women about what their partners might be feeling? We have more jobs than we thought. We thought the job was taking care of the kids, but it's also remaining a partner. And sometimes when the kids come along, we put so much energy because there are these beings that need so much of us that we do forget about our partners. And we have to not manage both equally, but we have to pull each other together. And we have to acknowledge that this is a stressful new situation. And we have to continue to prioritize the connection and the marriage and not just parent. And I think part of the issue is that the modern woman, you lovely women in your 40s are asking the question, well, why do I have to do it all? Oh, yeah. Is that what you're finding? Yes. And I just want to say, I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage, but in my reporting. But you already have. What I found was that. Now you're trying to moonwalk it back. After you wrote the article that went viral, but now like, I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage, but. All of the men felt blindsided. And I spoke with many therapists who echoed this, and divorce courts, coaches, and men. They were shocked. And they didn't act until women took action. So talking and talking, men didn't hear it. They heard wah, wah, wah, wah. And then when they saw the suitcases, whether they were yours or his, it was all of a sudden, well, what can we do? I don't want this to happen. Again, I just, this was a common theme. I was shocked that these men were blindsided, but so was my dad. He didn't realize that my mom felt this way. The thought you asking him to wear suits, go to the cleaners, never occurred to him that that was a problem because that's the way you all communicated in the house. You actually started the article talking about the kind of woman your mother is now. Yeah, that's right. When you see her, that she's got the loud, describe what happened to your mother when she finally got out. When my mom finally left my dad, she had such a renaissance. I mean, it was like her life started again. And it's been so great to watch. It was tough for her, but the other side was magical. She really got to be who she always wanted to be. And in fact, she told me that had she not been with my dad, she would have been an artist living in the West Village painting. I think you started saying you could tell NOTICE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE her jewelry from a block away. My mom is a loud woman, and she's from Brooklyn, but in that marriage she was quiet, and now she's loud again. Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you feel yourself being repressed, too, in the marriage at all? Yeah, I did. I had to shrink myself to accommodate this marriage. And now that I've had this platform, I've seen myself emerging into this woman that I never knew that I could be. Wow. Jess, same thing? I don't feel like I've shrunk myself. I feel like I've just needed to take over, and so I'm so busy doing all the things. I don't have time to be small, because stuff needs done. Right, because you're managing everything. Because I'm managing everything, yes. Yes, yeah. So one of the things, Julie, you say in your book, you write that emotional validation, along with understanding, is arguably the single most important element of a truly satisfying relationship. Emotional validation. So how can women get emotional validation from their husbands, especially those who are feeling that they've tried this without success? Yeah, you know, first of all, some people don't want to validate, because they think that if I emotionally validate you, then I'm going to give up my own needs, or give up my own perspective here, where I have to agree with whatever it is that you're saying. And that's not what validation is. Validation is, hey, even when we don't see eye to eye, I'm still willing to step in and kind of understand your feelings. So I think when men can learn that there's success in this, it doesn't mean giving your own needs. And actually, it takes way less time to validate someone than it does to get in an argument for an hour because you're not feeling validated. Right. You know what's going to be validating? Thank you all for listening to this podcast. I know throughout the land there are people watching and listening to us who are feeling very validated from just hearing this. I think being able to articulate it and put a name on it, that it is quite quitting, that other women throughout the world also feel this makes people feel like they are seen or heard and that you're not the only ones, right? And I'm sure you discovered this when you started your TikTok. Oh, absolutely. I had no expectation that anyone would watch them. I was just, I'm a purger. I like to get it out. And I. Well, let's take a look at one of the things you did on the TikTok. Take a look. I want to talk to the woman. In a long-term relationship, she knows it isn't working, but she feels stuck. Where you at, friend? Come to the front. I see you in the comments. I've been with him 30 years. This is just my life now. I can't support myself. I don't even know how I'd leave. And then somebody always says, just leave. Let's be serious. It's easy to say that when you're not the one who has to rebuild your whole damn life. Yeah. And what's been the response, Keisha? Just women coming out of the woodwork, telling me that I've given them words to something that they've been feeling for so long. Validation. There's just so many women who think that they're alone. I keep hearing, I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one. And it's been incredible, the outpouring of just support for my own situation. Yeah. As I started the show, this podcast, I was saying, I think there are probably more people in this situation that are actually getting divorce. Because the divorce. The divorce rate for women in their 40s has, you know, leveled. It's women over 50 and over 65 that the divorce rate has gone up so severely. But I think for women in you all's age range, a lot of people are just pulling back and waiting to see what the next move is going to be. Yep. Yep. Well, thank you. Thank you all so much for being a part of this conversation. And thank you to Julie and her book, Secure Love, is available. Wherever books are sold. She's also the creator of The Secure Relationship. It's an online platform that reaches millions. And thank you again to Nedra. Her brand new book is called The Balancing Act. Available everywhere also. And thank you, Monica. You started all this here. For sparking this conversation. And to all of you for coming and sharing your stories. I hope this episode will do exactly what we're talking about. That it will allow you to know that you're not alone in your marriage. And my hope is that you find some some peace and contentment no matter what path you choose for yourself. We'll meet up next time. Go well, everybody. Thank you. If you could relate to our guest stories today and feel like you have also quietly quit your marriage, I encourage you to check out Julie Bonanno's book, Secure Love, and Nedra Glover Tawab's book, The Balancing Act. Their books might just help you understand what isn't working in your relationship and help you find a new way forward. You can buy each book right now by scanning the QR codes on your screen. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button. And that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.