¿Qué es la interseccionalidad?

Hello and welcome to Mama Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the 15th of April. I'm Holly Wayne Wright. I'm Amelia Lester. And I'm Claire Steven. And I'm Gidey. Gidey with excitement. I know. Because one of the things that's made our agenda today is an update on what looks like a royal tour, what tastes like a royal tour, what smells like a royal tour, but it's not actually a royal tour. We have some insider gossip from the Harry and Meghaness of it all. Plus, I've got some very practical advice. For how to deal with sexist comments on and off the internet. And we all know that the best kind of gossip is podcast gossip. And so there is a viral Alex feud and I've developed a PhD in it. They look exactly the same. Double Alex to explain it to you. Alex squared. Two people who look the same are having a fight about podcasting. But first, we are on day two of Harry and Meghan's visit to Australia. It is a royal tour. It just is, right? It's giving royal tour. It's definitely giving royal tour. Oh, and today I did have a chat to our daily news podcast that's quickie about the not so royal tour and all the background. Quick recap. They arrived in Melbourne yesterday, 6.30 a.m. They were on a commercial quantus flight. First class. Yeah. I did hear a little bit of a tidbit. Oh, good. From someone on the flight who said they were super friendly around the toilet area. Oh, there you go. So they also hang around the toilet area during long haul flights because they're flying from LA. How long does that take, Amelia? 14 hours. That's a long time, right? I assume they're in first class because I saw reports that their seat number, their seat row was three. That pointy end of the plane, none of my business, but I hear that that is first class. They got changed super fast and went straight to the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. Megs was wearing a designer dress. Now in the day that would have sold out immediately. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. I haven't seen that, but she was wearing an Australian dress, an Australian designer by a designer called Karen G. And they went straight to the hospital. And when I say I wasn't there, I definitely wasn't there. But the out louders have been sending me so many pictures. It's so cute. And what kind of things have you seen in the picture? Well, it's so a lot of out loud as it turns out, were at the Children's Hospital yesterday for other reasons. Like they were working there, or they were with their sick children there, or they were visiting relatives there. And then suddenly, as if from nowhere, incomes Harry, incomes Megs, small talk is on. They are very good at that. They are showing all of their small talk prowess. Harry's been training for that his entire life. And they everybody said lovely, lovely, how lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely. I liked there was a kid who had a sign and Harry said how long did that take you? And the kid said five to six minutes. (laughing) That's why I'm Children. And also because they would have been like, quick, and some royal people are coming, some what? Some royal people. Okay, quick, well, Megaside, that's so funny. Watching them do that reminds you that that's what Royal's job. That's what the Royal job is, right? William and Kate are so very good at this. You go to a hospital or a football club or a whatever and you make people feel good with your small talk and your exceptional beauty. That's the way that it works. Today between the two of them they have five events across Melbourne and Canberra. Then it's Camaron Sydney tomorrow, then it's Sydney for the rest of the time. Then it's the Besties event to which I'm definitely and I cannot stress this enough, not welcome. Oh. Not invited, not welcome. They've banned media, right? They, yes, so they've done, there's a media ban on that event because that is the event where Megan is talking to Gemaron Neal at the, who's the host of the Her Best Life podcast. And it's attracted all kinds of controversy for a lot of complicated and and quite silly reasons. But it's a very, it's probably the most Megan forward event. And so they're being very tight with their access, which I totally understand. And apparently I even know I am team, royal correspondent from Columbia out loud, not, not going. But we want to on the record that if you were there, you would just be there as a fan. I would like you wouldn't even be trying to get gossip. I would be bringing my flower sprinkles for a signature. Exactly. That's what I would be trying. Actually, that's probably not the right thing to do. Will you sign my jar of flowers? As ever flowers. No, please somebody remove this woman from the room. I've got a dilemma about this actually. Is this school holidays? I don't live in Sydney. We know this right. Do I just go home as normal? Or do I creepily hang around Sydney for the next few days? In case I bump into them. Or do I go and hang out with my children? What's what's what's better use of my time? I've you brought this up earlier and I've been thinking a lot about it. And my advice to you is you should go home and be with your children. And if there is an opportunity, don't worry, I'll be there. I'm fair. I live nearby. I'm ready to step in if you're needed. I have to ask, do you feel like any, does any part of you feel a bit weird about the sort of like royal tour, but not royal tour of it all? Because it's like for profit royals. Is that a little? I want to know what you think about this right? Because my take on this watching them, because nobody really knew what to expect. Apart from the Besties event and a couple of other things that have popped up, the itinerary of this trip has been kept very closely held. And what was apparent yesterday when they landed a Wednesday at the hospital is that this was very much like the royal tour they did in 2018, which we talked about on Monday. That tour was seen as one of the catalysts for everything going wrong because they were so good at it, that Pacific tour, that the other royals got jealous. That is not speculation. That is in Harry's book. That is in spare. He says, the seeing Megan, new to the family, do such a good job. Upside everybody and it started the bad blood. The thing that's really interesting is they are now doing exactly what they wanted to do when they were trying to negotiate the exit. So there was this thing called the Sandringham Summit in, I think it was 2020. They wanted to collaborate with the Queen. Yes. And they wanted the Queen. The Queen. Yes. The Queen. The Queen. The Chaggol Liddy Club. Liddy X Mega. Yeah, that's exactly right. They wanted to literally do that to amplify reach. But they proposed a sort of half in, half out arrangement, which was that they got to be royal, but they got to live in America and they got to also pursue private business deals. Now the Queen was like, that is not what's going to happen. And that is all on the record also in spare. The thing is that is exactly what they're doing. So in a way, this is watching them do this and watching them sprinkle their star power around and ride the waves of the criticism and whatever. It's bullsy. They are just going, I know that we're not officially on a royal tour. Because the point of a royal tour, in case you want to drink, you're like, what is this? Is it supposed to be about tightening relations between the monarchy and therefore Britain and whichever host country? So that's the purpose of it. And since Charles and Camilla are headed to Washington DC soon on such a tour. Exactly. So what is the point of a semi royal tour? Who are we tightening bounds between what are we tightening ties? What am I trying to say there? We're amplifying brand. Yeah. So that's really interesting because they are doing exactly what they wanted to do. semi royal, semi shining spotlight on charities and causes. They care about semi making money. Feelings. That's why I feel weird about it. Look, I think there has been a lot of as usual with Megan sexist and racist commentary around her visit. I read an article on the weekend in the Australian press. I won't mention where, which said that Harry and Megan are using Australia as an ATM. And I didn't love that formulation because really that's what's called making a living. And I don't have a problem with people trying to make a living. But I guess I do feel weird about they must think it's weird that they're sort of touring the world going to hospitals, spreading joy. But on behalf of who and to what ends, I guess the reason they're going to the hospital to spread joy is both to spread joy, but also to eventually sell more flour sprinkles, right? Well, here's the thing. I think this is just such evidence of the fact that it takes very little to make Australia feel special. And it's because we are so far away and we feel a little bit neglected by the world sometimes. And so I saw that headline that you're referencing and I, my first response was very like no, no, no, I don't agree with that. And just very cynical. And I might come on. We need some joy. There's a lot happening in the world. We need some joy. But the fact that now that Harry and Megan are here, I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But I'm so obsessed. I'm getting so much joy. And I know I've had that's what some of the out louders who sent me pictures from the hospital and stuff said is like, I mean, I know what you say this about everything now. The world is hard. Everything's bad news. This just seemed nice. And she's wearing lovely clothes and lovely shoes and Harry and Harry and his small talk and it's also gorgeous. And we get all the little tidbit. We love, I love that our newspapers right now are saturated with photos of everyday people who have had miniscule interactions with them and that's the news. And that's exactly what happened last time. But Australia has always had this funny thing of we really, I think we lose it a little bit about celebrities and fame because we are so far away and we're not used to it. It's interesting. Anyway, we do have, as I've said, I may hang around Sydney just in case I get to bump into Harry at the harbor or around Kujee. I used to live there. Surely I could give him some tips about where to get coffee. Anyway, I'm picturing you walking around Kujee in a trench, caught with sunglasses and a notebook. Ready to produce by flowers, pink ones at any moment. But someone who had a legit closing counter with Prince Harry this morning is Mama Meers associate editor Amy Clark. You might have heard her sometimes on new beauty. She's excellent in every way. She lives in Melbourne. She went to the November event this morning where Harry was appearing at the Western Bulldogs Football Club. And of course, we have to call it, get all the gossip. Amy Clark, you have just been in the same room as Prince Harry. Tell us. I have. What does he smell like? I was only two seats away from Prince Harry, but unfortunately I wasn't able to get a whiff. Oh, my. But it was there was definitely some aura in the room when he walked in. Did he seem jet-launched? No, but what was really actually very surprising was just how low key the entire thing it was, you know, very little security came in from a side entrance, kind of gave a wave, said hi to some kids, you know, said hello to a baby. And then just really sat down and was like, hey, everyone, like so chill. Were people acting normal? Like I wouldn't have acted normal if I was sitting where you were sitting. Claire, what would you have started under for your son? I think I would have. I would have done a bit of. I would have got some tips of how to say hello to babies because Royals are really good at that. So we actually weren't allowed to film or take photos. I was only two seats away and he. Oh, sorry, I completely forgot what your question was. My question was like, what? Like what did you do? Like he came out and did you lose it? Yes. Yes. I mean, I always was losing my share because I can hardly speak right now. Yeah. But everyone was very nonchalant about the prince Harryness of it. I think actually there was more fanfare for the Wiggles. The Wiggles were in attendance. I think I had a turquoise. Including the hot wiggle hot John. He was there. Yes. Oh my god. I would have played. Very excited. Okay, because I guess it's a good comparison because you've got Locky and John Wiggles there as well. Did Harry compare to them compared to other people in the room? Does he have presence? Does he have risk? He's got to have risk, right? Amy. He certainly has a, he certainly has a presence. Very relaxed in his way of speaking. He was kind of dressed, you know, dressed very casually. Just a black skinny Jane. I was skinny. Yeah. Not like a faded black skinny. No rips. I think that's kind of like a ball. Like faded black skinny. Do you have some eye liner to do? No, he's just a dad guys. He's just a dad there talking about, you know, you know, the struggles of fatherhood and early mental health, which was the whole reason why, you know, he was there was to talk about with the MoVeber Institute. But yeah, I would say he does have risk. Okay. Did he say anything good? He said a few really great things, paraphrasing because obviously we weren't allowed to reward or transcribe, but he did talk a little bit about the advice that his therapist gave him before becoming a father. So he was told that, you know, you've got to be aware of how you're feeling because the baby's born and it's all very exciting, but after that the days, the weeks, the months, where you're going to be sitting there going like, what do I do? What can I do? And he's, he said if he couldn't help Archie, he would be helping mum over offering, you know, that's was kind of the best advice that he got from his therapist. Can I just interrupt? Did he say mum or mom? That's kind of important. Ah, he's still very British, very like mum, mum, mum. He's not a mummy. Mumma. No, he also spoke about that, he spoke a lot about mental health as the royals often do, but interestingly I thought that he said, and his words actually, he says, the more shit that he gets about speaking about mental health and being open, the more it just makes him want to speak more. So he will not be, he will not stop talking about, you know, vulnerability, mental health, you know, talking to your male friends, all of that jazz. That's why he knows who Brane Brown is. Yes, he quoted, he quoted, I didn't, I don't know what quote it was, I mean, I'm sure she's got, she's got many fabulous quotes, but he quoted Brane Brown, he's, they're talking about therapy. He also was at pains to point out to the room that, you know, yes, we're talking about men's mental health and early fatherhood, but that, you know, women are women are awesome. Those, that was the quote. Okay, women are awesome. Did he go outside and kick the footy around? Have I seen that? He did. And can the prince kick an AFL ball? He can, he can kick. He did nothing he can't do. No, he did a bit of a clanger that went far over the small child's head. And he turned around and looked a bit chubby about that, but he mastered the hand part. Better than into the small child's head. Yeah, remember when Scott Morrison tackled back in about to be pretzari got in for a high tackle. No, no tackling. It was all very kind of rudimentary skills. I heard he might have got upstaged by some other celebrities who were there though. Correct. So while Harry was kicking the footy, we had an incredible acoustic performance by the Wiggles. That was going on. That was drawing a lot of attention, specifically hot wiggle. That's John Pierce. John, yeah. Hot John. And also he was competing with the actual Western Bulldogs football players. So it was a tough gig. The arms on those boys. Yes. Not the Wiggles. I don't know about that. Not if I business. No, Wiggles, Wiggles arms were covered. So, Harry spent the morning getting upstaged by Wiggles. That is the headline here. Something I love about Australian culture is that are we impressed by the Royals a little bit? Who we more impressed by? The Wiggles. The Wiggles. I have one more question. Did people bow to him? No. No bowing. No bowing. And shaking. Yes, he was referred to and was referred to throughout as the Duke. Not to be confused with another Duke that we love in pop culture. Of course, Bridgeton. But he was referred to the Duke, the Duke, the Duke. So very much still has the royal vibe. The whole thing is probably given Duke's more risk than they had previously. Yeah, it sounds sexy. Amy, that's an exceptional account of your royal morning. Thank you for going there for us. You're welcome. Someone had to do it. I hope you did. Love your work as always. See you. Bye. In a moment, not everyone on the internet approves of women kicking goals. And so we're going to talk about what to do about it. Want to feel good more often in 2026? Hi, where are you for? Move by Mama Mia helps you fit movement into your everyday, giving you more of me time whenever you need it. From strength and cardio to yoga and Pilates, with workout plans that fit every space, everybody, and whether you've got 10 minutes or 40. Start 2026 with enjoyable movement from just $9.99 a month. Mama Mia subscribers get unlimited access, head to move.mama Mia.com.au and use MoveMey to get $20 off in annual subscription. A milestone for Australian women this week. Susan Coil is the new chief of the army. She is the first woman to lead a branch of the Defence Force. She joined the army reserve as a soldier in 1987 and she moved up the ranks from there. When I was reading about this appointment, I was kind of shocked to learn up until fairly recently. It was very difficult for a woman to ever imagine getting into any kind of senior role in the army. Apparently in the 1950s, women had to leave service in the women's army core when they got married. And then later that got changed to when they were pregnant. I love to watch Jennifer Parker, who's a Defence and National Security expert, had to say about this in a newspaper I've had this week. She wrote the appointment of Australia's first female service chief is not just about one individual, but the cumulative effect of those who were constrained by policy limited by expectation or passed over despite their capability. And then she said it is in many respects over to you. Holly, I know you mentioned to me that we have a number of out louders who serve in the Australian Defence Force. And we thank them all for their service. And I hope that they're taking joy and pride in this just as the rest of Australia should be. So Susan Coil is a trailblazer. But she's also really uniquely qualified for the role. She's the first service chief to come from a leadership role, which involves emerging technologies like space and cyber and lots of complicated things that Australia needs to be on top of. So she's very much an army chief for the future. But then that's why I guess I was so distressed when you told me, Holly, that not everyone on the internet is pleased about this appointment. No, this is one of the reasons why we're talking about this, is because an out louder, and I'm going to respect her privacy beyond the group, beyond our out louders group by not naming her. But she posted in the out louders group, so I'm going to read out what the post said. It said, "I have to be honest, I'm genuinely shocked. I wasn't prepared for what I've been seeing across social media, and I can't scroll past it anymore without saying something." The volume of sex is degrading and just playing in appropriate comments directed at the left-tenant general Susan Coil has been staggering. Hundreds and hundreds of them, and it's not just men, it's women too. That part has hit me harder than I expected. This is a woman who has worked her way to the very top of a field, and it's never, that has never been made easy for us. And rather than pausing to acknowledge what that takes, the years that sacrificed the performance, people are tearing her apart for being there for doing her job. I work under her leadership. This out louder says she is outstanding. One of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is the next bit, in particular, of what our out louder says. She says that she works under Coil and that her leadership is outstanding. As I say, she says, "When I joined the Defence Force, I wouldn't have dared imagine reaching that level as a woman, seeing someone get there and then watching this response is gutting." I'm curious whether other women are feeling this too, or whether I'm just in my feelings about it, because right now I'm genuinely blindsided by how ugly it's gotten. I tell my daughter that she can do anything, but look what she gets to see when other women get to the top. One of the reasons why this really resonated is because my daughter and I, and our family had this exact conversation on the weekend, but about a different woman. Christina Cook, the first woman to travel around the moon on Artemis II. We were talking about Artemis last week. My daughter was really distressed by coverage that she'd seen, and like collections that were on social media and everything, of the awful trolling and abuse that Cook had attracted for being in this presumably once very male role. So we had a conversation about how much to focus on that, rather than on the incredibly positive imagery coming out, of like Cook with her team crew mates, who are in that amazing camaraderie between them, about the largely female team leading from the ground, at NASA, like how much to focus on the hate, rather than the great stuff that was happening. So what I'm genuinely torn about is what our out loudest says there, about how we tell our daughters they can do anything, but then they see this happening. Do we go, as my partner did, what we were talking about on the weekend, we were talking about Christina Koch. His view is very much just ignore it. He's like, it's sort of, you know, these are just idiots. That's the vibe, you know, that's not the men and some women, but mostly men making these comments are just idiots on the internet and people on the internet will be idiots. But my issue with the just ignore advice when it gets to a certain point is are we then like not acknowledging the level of pressure and abuse, like the higher price of entry, if you like, that women have if they rise through the ranks in a male profession. If we say just ignore it, don't look at it and we don't talk about it, or we kind of pretending the world's a place that it isn't. Because then focusing on it feels really heavy, really depressing. We know there is a lot of progress and there are more women in all kinds of fields and we want to celebrate that. But as another out loudest wrote on that post about Susan Kors, she said, I've had to stop myself from looking. I'm getting way too angry and it starts to affect real life around me and my moods. I keep telling myself is that's fine, let them comment, it won't change the fact that she's made it or the decision. So just let the old man embarrass themselves. What do we think about this dichotomy of acknowledging the trolls, ignoring the trolls when it comes to this? Before we get to that, can I just ask about the comments? Because I don't know anything about them. Is it abuse? Is it like disparaging comments saying that they're not qualified or something? Klaes has some examples. Yeah, for I'm very across, because when I saw that in the out loudest group, and this is what I'm torn about, as you say, Holly, I didn't know there had been negative commentary. And when I saw that called out, I then went looking for it. And I am really disturbed as well. So there was a lot of arguments about how it's DEI, basically diversity and inclusion that she's been chosen for that role, how she actually fired a rifle. I'd be interested to know if her peers think she's the right person for the job. A lot of like this, I found really, really annoying. People saying the question is, is there anyone else who is more experienced and better qualified for the position? And it's like, you don't ask that. If that was just a man, you wouldn't ask that question. That's the respectful kind of commentary even in a way. Because then this was from a woman. Great. When she gets menopausal, the real fun starts from a woman. She was asking, can someone tell me what her medals are that she's wearing? Are they just participation medals that everyone gets these days? And basically, it was a mixture of you belong in the kitchen make a sandwich. And she's not qualified. With the female astronaut, I wasn't across that. What kind of stuff did your daughter say? A lot of the same things. A lot of things about like, I hope she's just there. To clean up, make sandwiches. She's only there because they had to have a woman in there. What does she like? So obviously, there's more toxic abuse in that. That's about the way these women look. Or, you know, like, whether or not they should be allowed to be in the, like a lot of that as well. Yeah. And I'm sure that the black astronaut Victor Glover was also getting a lot of purification on the way. And so this is the thing. Is do you focus on that? Because do you focus on that? The fact that any woman or person who does not fit central casting? For these kind of roles, whether that's the background, their age, their ethnicity, their gender. Like, do you focus on the fact that they also have to wade through all the shit? Or do we go, let's not give it oxygen? It's very difficult to read this kind of commentary and not get furious about it, as I route louder mentions. But is that part of the problem? Do we have to just ignore it and march on regardless? I can't decide. It feels gas-lidy. Because I think a lot of these, the tricky part is a lot of these comments are people trying to stoke stuff and trying to, trying to start shit basically and provoke people. They're just basic trolls who seem to, if it was about anything, they'd post the contrarian opinion just to rev people up. And I do think if we are paying them attention, that's exactly what they want. Because they, I think they think it's funny. They think that there is something really powerful and really comical about kind of swaying the conversation. So on the one hand, I think just ignore it. But on the other hand, I did really like when you saw these comments and people, it was often women, responding and defending her and saying, I work under her and she is incredible. And she's got 40 years of experience. And when they questioned particular things about does she have combat experience? And people would say the last two chiefs didn't have combat experience. So I have a lot of respect for the people who engage with it in order to make sure that it isn't a one-dimensional narrative. But it just makes me think that I really hope that these women that Susan Quail and also Christina Cook are not looking at this stuff. Because I mean, Christina Cook, thank goodness when a lot of it was happening, she was in space. She was very far from it. I hope the life I was seeing. But here's what I wonder. And this is what I'd love to hear from you about Amelia, is that so these are very particular, extraordinary, obvious, like, you know, a woman who can lead Australia's defence forces, a woman who can literally fly around the moon. They seem like very extreme examples. But I think one of the reasons why the women reading the comments gets so upset is because in lots of little ways women are still dealing with this, whether they're sitting at a meeting table in a corporate environment, whether they're dealing with a male superior work, not all the time. And of course, like, things have never been better in so many ways. And a lot of the out louders in this comment thread, by the way, said, "My husband's in the ADF. He's deeply impressed by left-handed coil." Like all that. So definitely not, you know, it's not a universal experience. But women do still come up across this in their everyday life all the time if they're not going to the moon. How do we handle it, Amelia? Yeah, it's complicated. By the way, I just want to say that part of what's happening here is that a lot of these comments may not be even human at this point. That's interesting. AI has really supercharged the ability of bot farms to flood comments sections. And I had to stop reading, I read a lot of Reddit for a while. And I had to stop reading it because increasingly Reddit, which was regarded as one of the last bastions of the internet where humans were talking to humans, you could tell that a lot of the most inflammatory and the most extreme comments and there were particular topics on which they were like lightning rods for bots. The most of We're not coming from humans and you could just tell because they were pushing the same line again and again. And a lot of these bot farms in places like Russia are deliberately stoking division within societies. So I just want to say at the outset that a lot of these comments may not even be from living breathing humans, which is not to say that I don't think that sexism and misogyny don't still very much exist. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people, both men and women who do have these thoughts on the inside of their heads about DEI and whether these women were qualified for their roles. But in the past, we didn't have to hear them say it. And that's the problem with the internet. It amplifies our worst inner thoughts and our worst kind of secret prejudices. Do you think though that's so like for my, not necessarily my daughter, but the generation who's only grown up with internet commentary? Do you worry that it inhibits them? Like, why would you try for anything when you know you're just going to get this? I really struggle. It's a good question. And I guess that's why I really struggle with whether or not we should talk about this today. Because I think where I came down on it and why I decided that, yes, I agreed with you that we should talk about it, is that women are still dealing with this in real life. So yes, there are the bot farms. Yes, there's the amplification of people's worst thoughts. But just today in the nine newspapers, there's a God a minute column, which is like workplace advice. And there was a letter which read, "I'm the only woman in our senior management team. During a meeting about a vacant role at work, one of the men asked who had been a successful candidate." Another man said, "We chose the one with the large chest, which drew laughter around the table." All right, Jerry, sign fell very funny. Yes, that's hilarious. Well, the good news is though that Kristen Ferguson, who answers the advice column, she pointed out that managers can't just brush this kind of comment off anymore. If there is a complaint of which this woman had about this comment, there are laws that were passed in 2022 that say that employers actually have a duty to prevent harassment and sexist conduct in the workplace. She told this letter writer, "Your manager has to take this seriously. They have to show you what they are doing to stop this kind of sexist behaviour from happening." And that really cheered me up. It means that in real life, there are now consequences for saying these kinds of casually sexist things. I think the world is changing. Okay, along with pictures of Harry and Meghan, which in a non-creepy way, keep them coming out louders, and tips for my new veggie bed, there is one other piece of gossip that I am being sent a lot in my DMs. And that is because JLo, who I don't know if you saw her at Coachella. Did you see she popped up in a guest role at Coachella? What was she wearing? The most extraordinary front dental floss thong. Oh, wow. She had these thick dancer tights on, but she had this tiny little sparkly cod piece and she was caressing it in the very jail. JLo, great. Oh, good on you, JLo. It's not about that. Allegedly she has been hooking up with Brett Goldstein. If that name means nothing to you, then you have not been sending this to me because this is not your special interest area of Ted Lasso times JLo. Because Brett Goldstein was Roy Kent, who's like the breakout one. The eyebrow guy. The grumpy, his full-life. Because the other Ted Lasso guy is now on the new Steve Carell HBO show. Yes, that's true, right? So, yes, the one who plays the other footballer, Jemie. Yes, yes, yes, he is. I've been watching that school, right? Anyway, we digress. Roy, Brett Goldstein was Roy Kent and not only is he a breakout star for that, but he went on to co-write shrinking. Co-wrote shrinking. With Jason Segal, he's a big deal. He's a writer, producer, and Hollywood now. And he has also created a rom-com, specifically for JLo, called Office Romance. That show is about to go into its promo cycle before it streams on Netflix in June, which makes this bit of gossip especially scorrelous because we all know what happens there. But there have been some pap photographs of them looking cozy and then this kind of commentary in tabloid newspapers. During the rap party and inside a told son, they were all over each other during the dinner and drinks with the rest of the cast. They had a lot of fun while shooting. It was just what Jen needed after Ben Affleck. He really put a smile on her face in September 2024. So that's way back when he would have been wearing her for this part. Yeah. The duo was spotted at a Broadway show together. And after filming completed, Jennifer told Andy Cohen on the watch, what happens live show that Brett was her favorite on-screen kiss. I'm gonna say I just did a movie with Brett Goldstein and I would say he's the best kisser she says. No, I'm not buying this, Holly. Why not? Because it's just publicity. Amelia, how dare you. Publicity, only publicity. I mean, JLo wouldn't be going out with Brett Goldstein. Did you also see that JLo's having a good time at the moment because Ben Affleck apparently gifted her his share of their $60 million Beverly Hills mansion. Just recently too. So she's got great. She's got luck in real estate. She's apparently got Brett Goldstein on speed dial. The Brett Goldstein doesn't look unlike Ben Affleck. And that's true. And that's what makes me slightly believe this. I feel like they're both herstute. Maybe she likes a herstute. Yeah. And I also think JLo isn't known for being particularly covert with her romance. Oh, with anything really. No. See, cod piece of cod show. If this were anyone else, you might think, OK, yeah, yeah, it's just publicity because the whole narrative that basically had a massive crush on JLo and so wrote a Netflix movie for her to star in. And he's so gushy. He's like, we just wanted to write something funny and smart enough to be worthy of her saying, yes, like, I just, I love it. I would think with anybody else that it was just great publicity. But with JLo, I don't know. I think she's on the prowl and I think she's found love. I do. Do you think Ben is doing that thing where he stands outside of building, taking an exhale from his cigarette and just looking up at the sky looking and despairing? It's a team of me, JLo. Yeah. And it's like, sir, you have fumbled this so many times you don't get to grieve anymore. After the break, the podcast drama we are way too invested in. Quick question. Are you tired of the news? Do you want a podcast that isn't self-improvement? Come get unleashed. It's funny. I also think that underwear is sort of almost like a new marriage. Like it starts off, it gives you the best of what it offers at the beginning. It's unhinged. I have a bit of a thing for my friend's husband, Salami. Hello. It's not here to teach you anything. I need to make sure he looks at me. One side, I'm going to make a sign. This is what I married because I didn't meet you in time. Yeah, right. The other side was pointing to my son, who's 12. Look what we could have had Lewis. [LAUGHTER] I love it. It's a good time for Gen X. So search unleashed wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Tuesday. Two blonde women who could easily be mistaken for one another, which I can't criticize. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I have a blonde count of bars. Is this not about you and Jesse Feuding? Feuding. I wish. I mean, we should start a podcast feud. But they are currently fighting on the internet, and I just needed to get to the bottom of it. So I think we can do it as a group. You need to talk me through it, like, how to tell the difference between the two of them and why they're feuding. These are the questions. They've made things particularly complicated. They're both named Alex. I know. One with an E and one with an I. Am I correct? Yep. That's Alex Cooper, host of Call Her Daddy. I very much know who she is. That's one of the biggest podcasts in the world. She's very good. Yep. Most listened to podcast by women, second to us. Who wins? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Her recent guests have included Nikki Glazer, Kerry Washington, Jeanette McCurdy, Anna Kendrick. She's into it like she's-- Queen has been on that show. The Kardashians are always on that show. Exactly. It's one of the biggest podcasts in the world. She also owns the media company Unwell. The other is Alex with an I. And Alex Earl is a social media personality who I discovered on TikTok. And I think a lot of people discovered when she was doing Get Ready With Me videos. And she's just beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And she had a podcast called Hot Mess with Alex Earl, which no longer exists, which we'll get to. But that was with Unwell. Right. So it's like-- It's like Alex Cooper owns the network. And she was like, hey girl, because that's how these people talk. Hey girl, come do a show for me. Yes. And Alex Earl said, love to girl. And then she started doing it. And then something something happened to her. Exactly. So let's start with what's happened very, very recently. And then we'll go back. I'm scrolling through TikTok yesterday in the office on work time. It was Monday in the US, because the US doesn't make sense. But I see this video from Alex Cooper. Hey guys, you guys know I don't usually address this kind of stuff because-- When the thing starts with I don't usually address this kind of stuff. There's nothing to participate in this. But I am obviously-- seeing the videos, I'm getting tagged, I see the DMs, I see the comments. So at this point, it just feels long overdue. Alex Earl, hey girl. - Hey girl. - The passive aggressive reposts and the likes and the commenting on things. I gotta call you out here. You're gonna need to get specific and just say what you gotta say about me. - I love that. - I love that. - 'Cause it's taken me as a Gen X or a while to realize that you can have a complete feud with someone just through into the likes. - Like that. - But that has taken me a while to figure that out. And I love that she's just like the likes and the DMs. - And the reposts. - We're not having it like, okay, shots fired. - So when she says NDS, she's talking about why the podcast didn't work out. - Yes, yes. - She's like, none of this is under an NDA, you can talk about. - Tell us why the podcast didn't work out. - Well, well, well. So the podcast Alex Earl signed in 2023 with Alex Cooper on this unwell network. And then last year it was only last year, the podcast was no longer with the network. And nobody could kind of understand why. There was clearly some kind of falling out. And there's been lots and lots of rumors. And I've been kind of aware in those eye-guys of the rumors, but not fully across them. Luckily, my friend David Portnoy, who, I'll get to who he is, but he has weighed in and that's really clarified things. Now, David Portnoy is the owner/founder of Bastel Sports, which was the network that call her daddy was on originally. - I guess very complicated here. - It does. So call her daddy was on Bastel Sports, started in like 2018. And this is just interesting behind the scenes business costs. So obviously call her daddy blows up. It's Alex Cooper and it is her very good friend who is co-hosting it with her at the time. So fear Franklin. So it's the two of them. And the podcast is doing really well yet. They are on a salary of $75,000 a year. Because it was all owned by Bastel Sports, David Portnoy. There's then in 2020 a very public dispute going on between the call her daddy podcast and Bastel Sports where they stop publishing episodes. David Portnoy jumps in the feed and doesn't have a soda to update people on their business. - That's when I became aware of call her daddy. - Yes. - It's so interesting because like just culturally podcasts have now become celebrity gossip in a way that they never were. And I think this was one of those moments where now suddenly like what's happening in podcast world? That God that's not in Australia. I do not encourage it. But what's happening in podcast world is like as salacious as like whether JLo is flashing a cod piece at Brett Goldstein. - And it is. And so basically there's this big dispute. So fear Franklin leaves the show. Cooper starts hosting it alone. And then in 2021, so only the year after, she signs a deal with Spotify for 60 million and she gets the rights and all of that. So then Alex Cooper starts this unwell network. She gets Alex Earl on and they have this falling out. David Portnoy was on a podcast yesterday morning and he weighed in on this and I feel like he would know. So he said Alex Cooper and Alex Earl, the biggest kind of rumor about what the feud was was a Carl's Jr commercial. At the Super Bowl in 2025, there was this commercial and apparently both of them were up for it and they have the same manager, which has got to be a conflict of interest. - You can't manage two people called Alex. - You can't. - And they look the same and they'd be up for the same thing. - Really confusing. I bet their manager just gets mixed up all the time and says I thought it was that Alex doing the Carl's Jr burger. - Yeah. - And the burger to the Alex. - Jesus. - Alex Earl got the commercial. But apparently according to our mate David, Alex Cooper said, even if you offered me $10 million, I wouldn't have done that commercial. So he's like, that's not where the drama is. And I'm like, well thank you 'cause I didn't even know that that was a rumor about where the drama started. Apparently. - I'll do the commercial. - Yeah, I'll do the commercial. - Me too. A lot of burgers for $10 million. - And then another rumor was that Alex Cooper was annoyed that Alex Earl got a cameo in Happy Gilmore 2 with Adam Sandler. And I'm like, - Thanks someone which Travis Kelsey is in. - I'm bad buddy. - Oh, well, oh maybe it, 'cause I was gonna say, I don't think anyone wanted me to be in that. - No, I think it was Tigger Buddy. - Yeah, it sounds like bad buddy. - That buddy was in it. I would have gone in, I would have been anything in that. - Oh wow. - Okay. - Everyone wants to work with Adam Sandler. He's like the nicest man in Hollywood. - Yeah, he does seem really nice. Yeah, I just thought Happy Gilmore had had his moment. - Becly, like not. - Clearly not. - So. - You hit a nerve there. (laughing) - David Portnoy was like, wasn't either of these things. And it's like, okay, so what was it like? - Oh, I thought it was a sad part. - So he said, go ahead. - This is why men's podcast are three hours long. - Exactly. - So he said that he didn't know exactly what Alex Earls contract looked like, but he reckons it was a contract issue. And he said, Alex Cooper, one time I saw her and she was like, I wanna apologize for the way we were with call her daddy. Now that I'm managing talent, I can see how hard it can be. - Oh, this is one of those classic cases when you become the boss and suddenly you recognize all the shit that the boss has to put up. - Yeah, yeah. And so he seems to think it's definitely not a publicity stunt. There is something going on. There's some kind of tension. And Alex Cooper has always said that Alex Earls still owned the rights, the IP to her hot mess podcast and she could have done it. Like she could have gone off and done it on her own. And so she, I think when she says there's no NDA talk about it, talk about whatever your mad about, that's what she's saying is there actually was, I wasn't stopping you from doing it yourself. The best part of all of this is that when Alex Cooper posted her video saying, hey, girl, Alex Earls commented beneath it and she said, on it. So it's like, come on, where is it? Where is it? - So this is one of those cases where we like women fighting. So this is a business deal, gone sour. But because it's between two blonde Alex's, both of whom have significant social media followings and like to say, hey, girl, a lot, we are much more invested than if this was just two dudes in a suit. - I'm gonna start saying, hey, girl, I think I can pull it off. - I think every time there's just a little bit of tension on the show, we should sit down and I'll just look at Amelia and be like, hey, girl. - Hey girl. - No, I'm aware I'm a broken record, but there are some people on the internet who were saying this is not real, but this might be all a little bit of a pierced on. - Because the thing about Alex Cooper that call her daddy has become known for is that when she teases a guest for her podcast, the teases are incredible. She always has a really creative clever way of teasing it. - She had Sarah Jessica Parker on, for example, and she was like walking around in her outfits for ages, her iconic sex in the city outfits for ages. - Yeah, she kind of drops clues and everybody loses their minds about who the guest could be. It would be weird though, 'cause Alex has already been on call her daddy. She was on in 2023. I guess she could have her on again. They could have a fight on Mike. I don't mind. - Why do you think that podcast drama is suddenly like what people on the internet talk about? - I really like people fighting. I really like people fighting and I like working out what side I'm on. - Yeah, so that brings me to the question, which side are you on? - Well, the thing is that Alex Cooper has obviously also had a falling out with her ex call her daddy co-host. - Yeah. - And my thing in these things is always, are you the type of person who just falls out with everybody? 'Cause then you're the problem. But then I don't know, it was you're tossing up between $75,000 a year versus like a $60 million contract. I don't know. Is that worth a friendship, maybe? - It's worth about 10 friendships. - No, we're friends. - Maybe. - You could have all my friends. I'll put them all, send them all to you in a Gwyneth gift basket. - But the older I get. - No, at the friends, that wouldn't, that's my friend. (laughing) - That's clever. You're always more than $60 million. - We're all like, we would cut each other for you. - Yeah, I totally agree. - I certainly agree. - I'll put it that way. - But I do reckon as with anything, there are always two sides. And there is always, as you said, Holly, age-old story of what it's like to be the person who's being managed versus being the manager. - And you know what, we get a tiny taste of this sometimes when something changes, people are like, "There must be drama there." And often there is no drama there. Like often it's just literally, this is work and things change at work sometimes and like deal with it. But I think, when you go live, when you go live on several platforms at once with the words, "I never normally comment on this kind of stuff." [BLANK_AUDIO] - I'm not so surprised that someone who had a podcast called Hot Mess turns out to be a bit messy. - I know, I know. - Well, we'll keep you updated on our own podcast gossip as the week goes on out louders, but I think that is all we have time for this week. - You'll know that there's drama when I start saying, hey, go to Molly. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, it's so good. - You can do the accent and everything. - All right, I think that's it, friends. I think we've come to the end of a very exciting episode. I'm off to Lightly Stalk. - I was gonna say, if you see us in the back of "Pup Shot" - Yes, I'm in Megan. No, you didn't. - No, you didn't. - You definitely did. - Thank you to all of you for listening. Thank you to our amazing team for putting this show together. We'll see you on Friday. - Bye. - Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've recorded this podcast.