Purpose Beyond Prison

Working with children impacted by their mum being in prison is an important part of the work that you do. What kinds of impacts do you see on children in these situations? We know research tells us that when a mum goes to prison a child can experience the same grief as if mum passed away. As a community we know what to do with that. We'll do grief counselling. The community will rarely, people will bring meals. When mum goes to prison it's completely opposite. One little boy that we've been supporting for years, hadn't been invited to a birthday party in seven years. No family that ostracised him, that's pretty rough. This is Life and Faith, a podcast where we seek to elevate the conversation about the things that matter. Or should matter, deeply human questions about meaning, purpose and hope. No matter what you believe, we hope you'll join us exploring the complexities, the struggles and the joys of Life and Faith. Welcome to Life and Faith from CPX, I'm Simon Smart. Around 80 years ago in 1946 a young woman by the name of Myrtle Breene knocked on the door of Pantry Prison in Melbourne to ask if she could visit the women inside. She was allowed in and just spent time with the prisoners listening to their stories and showing them kindness. It had quite an effect and she was invited to return and do it again and it became a thing. She would go back over and over and this became a mission for her and she became the founder of an organisation called Prison Network that has been going into prisons ever since. Today the organisation is going strong, working with women in prison, running programs for them and wraparound services that assist women to break cycles of social disadvantage and other factors that land them back in jail. They assist with finding housing and accommodation and employment. Today we speak with CEO of Prison Network, Amelia Pickering and also Patty Phillips, who is someone who received support from Prison Network when she was incarcerated and now participates herself in the work of the organisation striving for dignity, hope and purpose for women in and beyond prison. Amelia and Patty so good to see you. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. It's great to have you there. Amelia, Prison Network has been around for a long time, 80 years or a bit about. It works with women in prison and also once they're out but tell us about the work and especially what it's trying to achieve. Well we have, yes, we've been around for about 80 years since the days of Pantridge Prison. And I suppose I heritage is that a young woman at Bathierge of 18 who kind of, I think she wanted to be a missionary actually was told she wasn't smart enough, but wanted to do some good somewhere. We went to the doctor on the door of Pantridge Prison and said can I come in and talk to the girls in there and spend some time with them and when she left the matron kind of said well that was, that was pretty good. It feels quite a bit better now. Do you want to come back next week and she didn't we've been doing that for 80 years, bark over it when we couldn't. And so sort of that's the seed of the work. It started being an opportunity to bring humanity into what can be a very dehumanising space. We deliver a number of programs in prison that we call our engagement programs. And that's an opportunity to build trust and rapport and some preconditions for change for women who are incarcerated and then to do the journey with them while they're in prison. So we do, like I said, our engagement programs, what on one support and then the journey from inside to the outside so that through KP's and then helping to do some really practical things like, yes, the rep around support, but also housing employment and recovery programs. So for us it's sort of a one size puts one kind of approach. That's the way we like to think about it. It's a just sort of journey with these women essentially to find a new way forward. Yes. And those different elements of the program are so important. They see you don't just tell people in prison, but then once they're out and that could be a massively challenging time, no doubt. Now the reports and the literature of prison network speak of a cycle of incarceration. Can you paint a bit of a picture of the kind of woman who ends up in prison and what that cycle looks like? I think typically what we know about women particularly in Victorian prisons, research tells us that nine out of ten of them have been victims of family violence or abuse. Many of them have experienced homelessness poverty, so you're dealing with a highly traumatized group of women. That will you know, we'll set them on a trajectory essentially that's going to see them end up in prison. Often it's drug-related crimes, the numbing pain trying to deal with trauma and they'll find themselves in prison. And then they do what society asks them to do essentially and that is serve their time. And when they do they come out with all of those same vulnerabilities, but that is now compounded with a criminal record. So no one's going to give them a job or a home or a chance really and they really are pushed to the edges of society. And so the cycle kind of perpetuates. So I think in Victoria for women specifically, recidivism rates is around 40% so 40% of women who go in prison will go back within a couple of years. The work of prison network has seen that shift. So in terms of the cohort that we work with about 5% will go back. So that's a significant 35% improvement, but it is through doing some really practical things like the housing and employment that we know is going to make a difference every time. But it is also complex and messy and you're dealing with people who have experienced complex trauma. So it is all a bit labor intensive and so it really does take that sort of a nuanced approach. Do you have a feel for some of the parts of your work that are most effective in breaking that cycle that you've talked about? Housing every time. Housing for sure, but the engagement, not just the home in and of itself, the home and then engaging with the supports around that home. And so that's why for us we're quite a unique organization and that we start as early as romance when a woman comes into prison. We're there and we're having those conversations and we do the whole journey all the way through to the end and on the outside. And it kind of only works because we're putting a lot of credits in the bank when it comes to trust like we're showing our time after time. We're doing what we say we're going to do and we really earn a lot of trust that then converts into engagement post release. And I think the engagement with our support post release coupled with those really practical supports like housing is what makes the difference. I bet building trust for some of these women who know that have been let down by many people in their lives. Yeah, important part of that now, Patty, you have been a beneficiary of prison network. Now tell me how it helped you when you needed help when you were in prison. Well, I first connected with prison network when I was incarcerated. And at the time when I felt completely broken, they showed me humanity and what that looked like. Because in my early 20s, I went similar to what Amelia was talking about through some debt trauma. And by the time I came to prison, you know, I had left a trail of destruction in the community to my friends, my colleagues, my family. In fact, no one knew I was going to end up spending over four years in in jail. And it was through that humanity that, you know, really made an impact on me personally and now professionally. For me today, like I work as a peer worker with an organization that are non for profit organization. And I'm also lived experience coordinator with prison network. And I get to walk alongside people during an after incarceration offering that same kind of connection and belief that was once given to me by prison network. Like it hasn't just changed my life. It's changed the lives of so many women that I come into contact with and every day. And I see the ripple effect of that hope in action. So when I was first in prison and I was offered, you know, just even a conversation. I was very, very resistant because I feel like a lot of women and including myself have a distrust of services. They're let down by services. And so I kind of resisted. But they. They kept out that they were very, very persistent. And I'm glad that they did that. And they continue to do that because had I not had that support. I would honestly wouldn't be doing what I'm doing right now. I know wouldn't be in the position that I am because of the wraparound support that they give to people. I'm at it helps as well for people to know you've had this experience as well. At least have some people who know what it's like to have been there. And I got that. I mean, I get to go into prison now as well. Right. As a volunteer with prison network. And I get to speak to the women there. And they can see that there is that hope. And you know, everyone's journey is different so they can end up doing whatever they want to do. And I think it really, really does bring that hope to the women to see like myself and other people coming back into the system. You know, being able to walk back in. Yeah. In there as volunteers. That must be a great source of. It's like you're seeing someone who's been able to get through this and get out the other side and into a good space that must be very powerful. Patty, can I take you back to when you first end up in prison? And there's a whole lot of circumstances that lead up to that and I doubt. But what does it feel like? You've got this stretch of time in front of you. A lot of unknowns. Tell me that feeling you had there and what was going on for you. I mean, I just felt, I guess, humiliated. I felt I let so many people down. I didn't know what my life was going to really look like after my period of incarceration. But for me, like I made the most of it, to be honest, I ended up getting involved in distance education. So I started a bachelor of linguistics, which I ended up changing to criminology because, you know, with the impact that President had on me, I was changing that to criminology because I knew that when I left prison that I wanted to do something with that experience, to do something really, really positive because when I walked out of those gates, the women still inside, you know, I wanted them to never feel forgotten and and know that people out here out in the community are actually advocating for them. And I also engaged in programs, I engaged in work. So I made really, really good use of my time. And I think that's the key to kind of getting through it. But a lot of women are not in that, you know, we have to be realistic to understand that a lot of women are not in that position. So there's a lot of trauma going on. And they're not necessarily getting the help that they need. Now, Patti, I've heard you say, "Prison saved your life." There's a way in which this proved to be a turning point for you. Yeah, you know, I feel that you are, you hear this, but it really did, it actually saved my life. And I needed that time just to reset, to really focus on myself and to do some work around myself. And it wasn't easy. And certainly my time didn't end when I walked out of those gates. And that's certainly another piece of the puzzle that we can talk about. But yeah. No, that's a very important piece, isn't it? So how I'll believe when you're at prison. 45. So it's really late in life. But it wasn't, it wasn't my first date. I'll be upfront and say that I was on a corrections order for nine months. And I kept offending through that order. And I then ended up continuing to offend until I was incarcerated. And that's when things really stopped for me. And I needed, as I said, I needed that time to really reflect and do some work on myself. And Amelia, a very sobering thing I've heard people from prison networks say, and you're alluding to this a moment ago, when you said so many of the women coming into prison are have experienced domestic violence. And I've heard people say that for some of them getting to prison is the only safe place they feel like they can experience. I mean, that's a terrible indictment. That is, it is pretty rough. And, and we do hear it all the time. What's challenging about that is we also know that incarceration is pretty horrendous. Just the nature of incarceration is horrendous. Absolutely. I wasn't trying to paint that as something. No, no, no, no, but I, but I mention it because it is often, you know, we hear it from women all the time that it's the place where they can feel safe. Where they can, as Pate says, take time, you know, depending on what their background is or what the experiences are when they're going in. It may just be a safe place where they're not afraid for their lives. It may be a place where they have a place to sleep, you know, 40% of women who are incarcerated have been homeless. So it's a bed. It's a place to sleep. It's a routine. But it comes with the whole myriad of other challenges. This is Life and Faith and I'm speaking with a Mealier Pickering CEO of Prison Network, an organisation that for 80 years has been working with women in prison in Victoria and helping them when they come out of jail. They also work with the women's families. Also with us today is Patty Phillips, who was helped by Prison Network when she was in jail. And it made a huge difference in her life. She now helps women who are in the same situation. At this point in the conversation, I asked the Mealier to sum up the philosophy behind the work of Prison Network. Here she is. So we are a faith-based organisation. I think Faith drives what we do, this idea that everyone deserves a second chance. And really, I think, reflecting on the teachings of Jesus, which are very much around a vocation of love and acceptance. And visiting the prisoners, right? And he said, when you visit the prisoners, you're visiting me. And him really being an advocate for those who have been pushed to the margins. And those that have been forgotten are left behind. And so us wanting to be the same, wanting to be an advocate, you know, I came from South Africa 25, 26 years ago. And when I moved here initially, obviously, in South Africa, poverty and advantage live side by side. And it's easy to see. I remember moving to Australia, wanting to do good, whatever that look like, and struggling to see where the need is, and struggling to see where the pain and the disadvantages. Because it's kind of hidden in plain sight. And it looks like everyone's okay all of the time. And so it's taken me a while to learn and understand where the people are that we've pushed to the margins of society. And people who have been incarcerated are one of those cohorts that they really have been. And so I think for us to bring them part of place and to say you are deserving of a hope and a future and a purpose. And we're going to walk with you in finding that and uncovering that for yourself is really what drives the work. And having some degree of hope in your situation must be a key thing for people who've gotten to that stage where they ended up in prison. That was your experience. Patty, I imagine is it the one you've seen others have as well. Yeah, I have, but I just wanted to sort of also backtrack on what I said because often there's a misconception in the community that we should, you know, lock up people. Although prison worked for me, it doesn't work for a lot of people. And for many, it's a revolving door that keeps, you know, them stuck in that sort of same cycle because we're really not addressing the issues that actually led them to incarceration. And also the issue around, you know, which Amelia mentioned, which is coming out into homelessness. And I think, yeah, the work that certainly prison network does gives people like a mention, you know, they show humanity, they give them hope. There's that wraparound support, they have programs in prison where I don't know, it's like, is it art class or an art, arts and crafts. And it's a time where people can come into that space and not think about anything else, anything that's happening out in the yard. And so it's a time to sort of sit with the volunteers and have just meaningful conversations and normal conversations that they miss, you know, I think hope comes from the most unlikely places. So my background is social impact background when I joined prison network and looked at the list of programs we ran, I thought, arts and craft probably have to be one of the first things to go. And let's do something with some serious grant that's going to create some change, but it's a program where volunteers come in because they want to and no one's paying them to. Right. Because they like us. That sends a powerful message doesn't it? 100% people there, the women. And in our evaluation that we did recently, that was one of the strongest messages that we sort of knew anecdotally, but I don't think realized the significance of that to the woman. And because when we survey, you know, what is it that you appreciate about prison network? It was this idea that there is this group of women that come in every week. It's sometimes three or four times a week and just sit with us and chat to us like we're normal people. There's no judgment. There's no questions about what you've done and why you're here, but how are your kids and how are you going and did you watch the footy and just sit with them and create that belonging and acceptance. I think that's incredibly powerful. And so our, you know, our craft program is probably one of our biggest most attended. I think half the prison population is going to attend that program just to sit around the table and make who cares what really it's about connecting with each other. And I think there's a lot of hope that's built in those sorts of contexts and the dignity as well. And being called by your first name as opposed to your surname, as simple as that, but it's around that table that really makes such a huge impact. And people, you know, there's lines outside of the leisure center for people to come in because prison network is so loved in that space. Patti, when you're working with people now in prison, it's not all great news stories, right? So you've had it. It's been a very good for you. What are some of the days where you feel like, oh, you know, there must be times where it's frustrating or it gets you down because your people are facing very complex. Yeah, I mean, there's conversations around so many sort of complex issues around, you know, say family connectedness, not having a community to come out to the broken down relationships between, you know, the person that's incarcerated and their family, that's a huge thing. Knowing that someone is sitting there waiting on parole that they don't have an address that, you know, they'll eventually serve out their parole in custody because they don't have an address to go to. And so what ends up happening is they end up going out into homelessness, but also in prison. There's the complexities of being able to access mental health assistance, just even your medication. There's education very limited around that. Not all women want to end up in construction, you know, so there's a lot of things happening because yeah, women may not have worked before. And I think yes, there's an issue around housing, but there's also an issue around employment and connecting back with your children. So there's a lot going on for someone, you know, yeah, and I think sorry, can I just add, I think we said everybody we believe everyone deserves second chances, but I think sometimes it's the end fourth and fifth and sixth chances and that's okay. You know, one of the challenges of some of the funding that's available often government funding, particularly is that you've got a close cases. So, you know, you've got to support someone and then fix them close the case and move on to the next, but we just know that that's not the case. Sometimes it's going to take us a couple of guys to get it right because, like I said, we're dealing with complex trauma. And so it's messy and that's okay. It can be just happening sometimes when you feel like we're hitting on the in the right direction, something will happen. A woman will be doing really well, something will trigger her. And then we're kind of back to where we started. And you see that a lot. And you know that it's probably not going to be the right time for that person and that's okay. So like Emily said, it might be the third or fourth time that they're coming out of custody and that's okay because at that point something will shift for them and we'll be ready for them when they are ready. Paddy, have you experienced the stigma of someone who's spent time in jail as you've tried to get your life back in order? And if so, what was the nature of that? I experienced it all the time. In different forms. I came out into the community and I ended up working in an organisation that didn't know about my background. It wasn't a requirement to mention anything like that, but I tell you what I would go into that job every day thinking is today the day that they're going to find out and I knew in my heart of hearts had they known that I wouldn't be working there. So there's a stigma around you feel like you have to heart like I felt for a very, very long time that I had to hide my criminal record. And doing this sort of peer work or lived working with prison network, I don't have to hide anymore. The person that I was trying to hide is the person that people actually want to hear from now. Hence I'm sitting here with you. But it's around a stigma around just stigma in general like the people that you least expect to react to people experiencing incarceration. Negatively, it just flows me all the time. We're often surprised aren't we? Where we think people get it and they will show empathy. And then you share your experience of incarceration or the work that we do with women who have been impacted by the criminal justice system. And their response, it's just we forget how polarising the work is we assume. But it is a strategy with misunderstanding and misinformation. So I understand that people don't always know who these women are and why they're there. So there is a lack of empathy. But we are often surprised at the reactions that we get like I had like my personal trainer is really cool. She's got like tats. And I'm like, okay, she's going to get this and then one day she said to me, so what do you do for living in? And I thought small steps. I said, I'm a peer worker with this organisation and I support people coming out of custody. And she's like, what? You work with prisoners. And just the reaction was not what I expected. And then I just like grow back into my shell and said nothing following that. But since then I've tried to challenge her and she's just not budging, but I will get her silent. Yeah, I'm sure you will keep working on her personal training going on there. So Amelia, working with children impacted by their mum being in prisons, important parlors, the work that you do, what kinds of impacts do you see on children in this situation? And again, we know research tells us that when a mum goes to prison, a child's going to experience the same level of grief as if mum passed away. And when mum passes away, of course, that's horrendous. But as a community, we know what to do with that in a way. We will do grief, counselling. And the community will rarely, people will bring meals when mum goes to prison, it's completely opposite in terms of that family is ostracised often the child is dressed into living with family or granny and then granny experiences significant stigma and, you know, the carers we talk to they'll talk about how they their friends will often turn their back on them. There's a lot of shame and stigma for them as well. And then all of a sudden, they're a caregiver and this child is trying to navigate how to deal with that. And it's also an ambiguous grief because mum's gone, but she's not really gone. And we don't really have language around it. We don't really know how to talk about its schools. Don't know how to talk about it. There's not a lot of a language or resource that's available in that space. There was an inquiry that was done a couple of years back of children with a parent who's incarcerated. And there is, we don't even really know who these children are and where they are. There's around 7,000 of them in Victoria. And the recommendations from the inquiry were very much around a concerted effort to have a central database. We know what supports are available. Nothing's been done just yet. And so we're all trying to plug holes wherever we can and provide what support we can. For prison network, we have a family support worker. We have one worker that's allocated to children who have a mum in prison. We run a program called Fun with Mum that will go in on a Sunday and really facilitate a session where it's not about us. It's really about finding ways to connect the mums and kids in what is, as you can imagine, a really confronting thing for a child to do. Often the dogs are there doing the sniffs before the kids go in and they're not keeping cuddly. You know, I'll add a touch to them. They just have to smell you. So it's not a fun experience to really intimidating experience going into visit mum in prison. And then tricky for mums because the kids come and have their visit and then what do you talk about? How do you engage? And then the children have to leave and their tears and mums go to go back into her room and sit with the enormity of what's happening for them as a family. And so it's really tricky and complex. So we try and provide support where we can. But in Victoria specifically, it's a really significant issue that we don't have a whole lot of strategies collectively to figure out how we're going to manage it. We're all kind of just trying to do our piece to provide some support. It's a huge challenge. Huge challenge. I think one that we don't think enough about me. It gets a school. What do you parent? What do your mom and dad do? I mean, it's a hundred percent. Mother's Day events. One little boy that we've been supporting for years. We're talking to his care at the end of last year. He hadn't been invited to a birthday party in seven years. No, because families that ostracized him. That's pretty rough. Very rough. Yeah. And then, when I was talking about the party, Amelia was talking about the faith element of prison network. I wonder, your observations of the prisoners as they experience this care and love and commitment. What do they think of that? They're interpreting the faith element, which is really putting meat on the bones of things that Christian so they believe. But this is really, in my mind, at least, a pretty impactful thing. What's the perspective of the prisoners in that regard? I think that. Look, you know, one of the things that I observed. And although it's very much faith-based, it's not thrown. How do I put it? Yeah, it's not posed on anyone or sort of. No, it's done in such a beautiful and gentle way with such care around it in the sense that it's, yeah, like it's not imposed. Perhaps finally, Amelia, what gets you out of bed most of his lives? You think about the work that you go to do each day? I'll tell you something. There are days when it's hard. There are days when it's harder than others. I think the challenges are, you know, fighting for a cause that I think is so vital and so important, particularly around funding and support. What gets me out of bed in the morning are people like Petty and woman like her that I have to tell you, and I'll get emotional just talking about it, I'm so incredibly brave, who have been dealt the crappest blows, but just have this resilience and courage to find a way forward and to do what it takes if they can get up every morning and face whatever lies ahead of them with all of their challenges, and I've got no excuse to get out and do whatever I can to cheer them on. Well, I'd be unfair not to throw the same question to you, Petty. Similar kind of thing, but my heart is always with the women inside, and I get up for them every morning, and I want to do them proud. You know, I believe everybody deserves a chance, and I want to see people succeed, and I want the best forum, so yeah, I wake up thinking about them, and bright and early Simon. Bright and early? Yeah. When the alarm goes, you're bouncing out. I'm bouncing. Well, it's fabulous work, important work, too often for God and work, and it's really a great privilege actually to hear about it today, so thank you for both of you for being with us. Thank you, thank you. [Music] This has been Life and Faith with me, Simon Smart. Amelia Pickering is CEO of Prison Network. You can find out more about that organisation by going to prismnetwork.org.au. Thanks so much to Amelia. Thanks also to Patty Phillips for sharing some of her story today, too. Thank you to our producer, Alan Douthwaite. Please do share this episode with your friends, and help us get Life and Faith out to more people. Now, the grab we used at the end of last episode wasn't the right one, and I apologise for that. It is right for this next episode, though, and it's going to be a cracker. So, here's a taste. Huxley saw it first, I think, where we can live in a degree of comfort, as long as we don't have to be morally disturbed by. Not just people in other places, but people who are proximity to us, people who are close to us, Stanley Kovell calls it, living in a state of soul blindness. Where I see the form of the human being, but I don't really think that human being has a soul.