Punches, Pivots & Packaging

I went to work for Procter and Gamble selling soap after college in the back rooms of supermarkets, which was another humbling experience, but learned how to sell. Went back to business school in Boston, Harvard, and then after that went into investment banking. Got fired after 10 months for being an asshole because I thought they were looking for assholes, you know, investment bank. I mean, and I missed red the culture. Got my ass kicked. And then next day called my brother and said, "Okay, look, bad news I got fired. Good news. I've been doing this for 10 months. Let's start and invest a bank." I said, "I just need your wife's salary because we don't have any money." So he said, "I'll tell you what instead of sending you money, you send me the bills." And that's how we got started. And did that for two and a half, three years and decided we didn't really like the business. Wanted to make something. Manufacturing was calling. We looked at a lot of industries and we ended up liking this one. A lot. And we wrote to four and fifty box companies around the country. Wanted to visit a couple of dozen and buying a business in Baltimore. Welcome to Breaking Down Boxes. I'm George Pereira with Moe. Hi, I'm Jeff Flini with Fossbra America. Thanksgiving's almost here. That time of year when we gathered with family, eat way too much pie and try not to drop heavy turkey on the kitchen floor. And speaking of heavy lifting, when it comes to packaging the big stuff, you need more than a flimsy box. You need an ox box. Exactly. Oxbox specializes in custom heavy duty packaging with strength you can depend on. Strong enough for your machinery, inventory, overcame to it, lear leftovers for the whole neighborhood. And you don't just bring muscle. They move fast. It's industrial packaging at high speed. So your toughest packaging challenges don't have to linger longer than Thanksgiving dishes in the sink. This holiday season be grateful for peace of mind in your shipping. Visit oxbox.com. Oxbox is strength you can depend on. Okay, George, great to work with you again. I'm super excited about today. Today we have a great business partner, but more importantly a friend Paul Centauri, the CEO of Atlas Container, a great story that I think you'll really enjoy hearing. I think he's going to be able to bring some fun to the conversation as well. So looking forward to that. Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be a good one. Paul, why don't you take a moment and just introduce yourself and maybe give us a little elevator pitch on your business and what you guys do. Yeah, sure. Thanks Jeff. By the way, if you and George could see you have to see it. So I am Paul Centauri. I'm the president CEO of Atlas Container, which makes corrugated boxes. We're located right outside of anapolis in Baltimore in Maryland. My brother and I got into this business on a leverage buyout the end of the decade, bought the business from three owners that I had no place to go. They were retiring and bought it with other people's money. Went to a bank, never been to Baltimore, never been in the box business, never run a company, never been in manufacturing, went to 12 banks to borrow the money to buy business. And how many of those 12 banks do you think said yes? Well, I'm going to say none, but I was going to say one. 10. 10. We put a good business plan in front of them. 10, 20 years later, told me his best business plan is ever seen. But more importantly, he would never have done the deal unless the owners were going to stick around for three years. Right. And they did. They stuck around. But one died before we got the deal done. The other two stuck around for 15 and 25 years, respectively. Until they passed. We love those guys. That's how we get into the business. Wow. And tell me a little bit about the business. What does it look like today? What's your core business? We're a Vince Lombardi block and tackle brown right out the middle. Okay. Now we got some white, great reference. I'm a packer fan though. Yep. Exactly. That's right. We brought that up. Change, change. Business is, you've heard this before, you know, we're sheet plant with a corrugator. Okay. We've bought maybe 20 companies in the last 35 years. Ish. And maybe messed up half of them. People you asked me so it doesn't the economy have a lot to do with how well you guys do in the box business? No. My brother and I will fuck this thing up more than any economy could ever do. We've been taking risks. And you know, you get beaten up, get bloodied. But at the end of the day, just keep going at it every day, every day. And I think we started with about 6 million in business. We'll be over 90 this year. And we keep our money. Right. Wow. Good for you. So we got a backup because he's got, I think, quite the interesting story to get him into ultimately the professional world. And he mentioned beaten up and bloody. So you can tell us off, but he's, he's a very competitive man. But I'd love to hear you tell the audience a little bit about your upbringing, your educational background, your wife and two daughters, a little bit about them. But also that sports connection because you have one hell of a sport. Can I? Glad you that you recognize that. I grew up in Boston. I saw a Boston Wellesley Mass, went to public high school. And then I was recruited to play football at Dartmouth. I was a quarterback. And the 13-quarterbacks showed up for practice. I ended up being the number 30. The guy who turned out to be my best friend in college after I hated him. It was the Ivy League player of the year and became Dartmouth's most winning coach. Wow. And then tragically a couple of years ago he was hit by a truck on his bike. So we lost him. But I went to Dartmouth and then after I quit football, I started fighting. Well, bars, hotels, restaurants. See you and go right to Golden Gloves. Yeah, a little free game warm up there. Yeah. And then I ended up fighting in the Golden Gloves in Lowell Mass. By the way, that's where the movie with Mark Wahlberg, the fighter. What we class were you in? I went between middleweight late heavy. So 160, 65 to 178. Okay. And it was the greatest experience for me. Had a lot of fun. One sum, loss sum, got my ass kicked, which is always good, I think. Keep you humble. And then I went to work for Procter and Gamble selling soap after college in the back rooms of super markets, which was another humbling experience, but learned how to sell. Right. Because they're a phenomenal business. Went back to business school in Boston. Harvard and then after that went into investment banking. Got fired after 10 months for being an asshole because I thought they were looking for assholes. You know, investment bank. I mean, you were in Wall Street? No, I was in Denver. Okay. Without the Denver. Yeah. That's it. That's a good question because in Denver, they weren't looking for pricks like they do on Wall Street. And I missed red the culture. Got my ass kicked. And then next day called my brother and said, okay, look, bad news. I got fired. Good news. Let's start an investment bank. So we did. Really? Yeah. That's a while. I just said, I just need your wife's salary because we don't have any money. Oh. So he said, I'll tell you what instead of sending you money, you send me the bills. And that's how we get started. Okay. Yeah. A lot low tech on skilled labor, fundamentally undermanaged under marketed. That's kind of an overstatement. I don't think it is. But the regional, yeah, mundane product disposable go back to the same customers. And we wrote to four and fifty box companies around the country want to visit a couple of dozen and a buy and a business in Baltimore. So you went from the soap man to the box man. I went from boxing to soap to boxes. There you go. So when you buy this business in Baltimore, where are you living at that time? We were in Denver. You were in Denver. And then we moved to Baltimore. How about your brother Peter? We were living in Denver together in the same zip code. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So your brother is your only sibling? No, we have a younger sister. Okay. Peter is my older brother. Yeah. I was telling Jeff earlier that I'm the older brother in business, but he's the older brother everywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. It tells me what to do. Sure. All the time. Yeah. Since you were little safe. Yeah. Doesn't sound like you listen that often. I wasn't not that good at listening when he tells me something to do, but I listen because it's usually around safety or diet. Right. Exercise. Fun. Life. All good stuff. Did you ever box him when you were a kid? I did. Who and who would win? I think we would trade when we were little kids. Okay. And then I started really doing it. Yeah. He was doing karate. So when we got in the ring, he was trying to kick me in. I hit him a couple of times and I felt bad about it because I hit him hard. Oh, shoot. So we never did it again. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I listen. Boys will be boys though. Right. Growing up. Boys will be boys, man. We had a lot of fun doing a lot of crazy things on the neighborhood. Yeah. We all had the neighborhood. Did you play a lot of sports too? Growing up with my father was a Pulvolter. Right. He grew up in Italy. Okay. And ask what part of Italy? Venice. Nice. Yeah. My mother's family grew up in Ireland, County Slago. But yeah, no, we played them all hockey in the winter on the ponds and water skiing skiing has become a big sport of ours. Yeah. A lot of the successful leaders we meet in this industry and outside of it, sports played a big role in upbringing, but also just in their approach to the team approach to running a business, but the competitive nature. And you're almost when you're interviewing, find that as an advantage. Yeah. So is that transferred for you? Oh my god. I don't know if I would have made it in this business without my experiences in football and other sports. Yeah. Football, you know, I had good years, but I had bad years. And I learned a lot more from the bad years. A lot more. Never give up. Just keep working it. At some point, you got to make a decision which I did. And I pivoted. Just kept going at it. Right. And in spite of the losses, the heavy losses, the victories, I attribute a lot of the success that we've had to that resilience that I got playing games, right, playing tough games. Didn't carry over as much investment banking, but when you get into the box business, it probably was front and center in your approach to the bit. Yeah, I think you're working hard being someone that's willing to outwork the next guy. Yeah. And if you, like you said, if you get knocked down, get back up. You got to get absolutely got to get because you're going to get knocked down. You're going to get knocked out. And when you bought the business and the people that were loaning to the money said, hey, listen, you can buy the business, but we want the current owners to stay on. How important was that or how helpful was that for you coming into a business that you didn't know anything about? Oh, it's huge today. Absolutely huge. My brother nice to walk home. And after the two owners would predict something and then it happens. And we'd walk home and say, how do they do that? How do they do that? How do they do that? And of course, after the time you see things over and over again that you learn that, okay, this is what's going to happen, but they saved our ass a couple of times. The first acquisition that we did was two years after we bought the business was price too high. Okay. And the bank was not interested in doing the deal, but I was working hard to convince the bank. And the two owners pulled me aside and they said, I wouldn't do this deal. I wouldn't do this deal. And I should take you back a year when we were pricing the National Institute of Health and one of the owners of the older of the two and the one who worked on pricing, I said, I want you to bump those three percent because I wouldn't do that. I said, come on, go ahead, just give a shot because I'm telling you. And I said, no, I'm not going to do it. He did it and we lost the business and we never got it back. And I remember thinking, I will never, ever make that mistake again, fast forward two years. We're looking to do in this deal. They didn't want to do it. And I walked out of the office that I got in the car and I went, God damn it. Damn. I can't do that. I can't do it. I've been working on for a year. And when they said no, I remember thinking I will never get myself in this situation again, ever. And they did it. They said it. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to go along with them, but I knew how bad it felt the first time. So I called the guy from the car selling it and he said, I'm sorry, I'm out. It was painful. Two weeks later, call me and he says, okay, look, I won't sell to it. I'll just give it to you. Let me come and work for you. So listening to them was priceless wisdom that I learned the hard way and then profit from it later on. So I was going to follow up maybe just to take us back a little bit more to finish about your family or your lovely wife Elizabeth and two daughters. They've been a big part of this whole journey as well. I don't know when you met Elizabeth in this process, but we'd love to hear a little bit about that. Yeah. I met Elizabeth in Denver in a bar and I knew her mother because she was ahead of an acting school that I was taking lessons in. And Elizabeth was working with her mother at the same place. So I knew who she was. And that was 1987, which is right around the time we started looking for a company to buy because we bought the company almost a little more than a year later. So let's just fit on this wrapped journey pretty much the whole way. Yeah. I was going to say rat race. We're on the same treadmill right from the start. And the girls came along later. Madison is 31 right now. She's a singer songwriter with some game. She's got game. I'm telling you, I'm really impressed. I'll have to, you got to have to ask me and I'll let you hear some of that stuff. It's really good. And because I'm a father, but I can be a hard ass too is a father. Unfortunately, I've witnessed that. We've had some dinners with your daughters there and you were definitely a discipline area. I don't know who's disciplining who whether they're doing it to me or I'm doing it to them, but goes back and forth. My other daughter lives in New Orleans. Madison lived in New York for nine years and just moved back to DC. So we're really happy to have her in the same area. Isabella was went to Lane and she's never moved back. She loves it. But as a dad, obviously I must rather have her around. She started a business as an herbalist. Just had a big show last month on 9/9, September 9th. Yeah. And where she invited all of her vendors and it was a pop-up thing and a beautiful park in the city. And she did a very chic job like her mother would do. Yeah. And it was a lot of fun. So you've been still on to Bernerole's like the approach in your family. I think so. I think they both do. Elizabeth got a little of that in her too, say at least. And Isabella plays in a band as well. Sweet. She plays this. She runs it. We have a musical family. Where'd it come from? Where'd all the music come from? Oh, you're looking at a man. Yeah. Came all from me. You believe that? Grotman. I got I got nothing. Absolutely no game, no skill, nothing. Elizabeth. Yeah. Yeah. And I tell you what, they've threw them a pretty good. Wow. I'm curious being a dad of two girls. Nice. You're blessed. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. I have one boy, three girls. Yep. But I'm curious about the time when maybe they brought home the first boy. What was that moment like as a dad? And how did you respond? Because I'm making an assumption now as a dad. You get rid of them all the George. Yeah. I'm just curious. Prep me. I don't think I ever said anything to any of their friends that would have been intimidating. I tell you Elizabeth ran the roost. Okay. And she would get into some people's faces. Oh, she'd get into parents' faces that she thought the kid was out of line. Okay. My wife. Yeah. And that she'd come out swinging. So family is obviously very important to you. Oh my god. I'm tired of you. Yeah. Like in this role. Yeah. Peter obviously has been with you all along still is. Yep. Your wife spent a very important part of this whole journey. Any other family members involved? Peter and I started 40 years ago. Wow. We had a six year, I should call her about that was around 2010 to 2016 where we just couldn't stand each other. And 2014 he came to me and said, would you buy me out? No. There is absolutely no way. If you get bought out right now, you're going to get totally screwed. You leave when I leave. That's it. That's where it works. No other way. And then we'll do well together. I know he walked away thinking, all right, he's still got my back. He might paint me, but he loves me. Yeah. Like brothers should. As well. Yeah. Yeah. But no, no other family. The money we raised when we bought the business came from a father of a friend of mine in college. A father of a friend of mine in business school. A friend of mine from college and a father and old girlfriend who rode the biggest check. They did okay. Most of them, I think one or two of them are still in, but that's it. They'll get paid off in Iraq. So you had the three original owners, one of them you mentioned, passed away, even before the deal was done. You attributed some mentoring, if you will, to the other two. Any other mentors along your journey or people you met in the industry? I had one of my school professors in business school was a good mentor along this journey, particularly when we first started looking for a company to buy after not too long thereafter, I'd still call them and ask for advice. And he was extremely helpful. He's actually, if you ever heard of a mechanism called the search fund that goes out and buys a lot of these kids that come out of business school, they go out and they raise money from family and friends under promise that they're going to find a company and buy it, search for it, identify and buy it. He started this thing and now we were the third group into it. He owned the Celtics for 20 years, you just sold them. His name is Earl of Grossback. He was a phenomenal mentor at mine, but still around. So you want to dig into a little bit the business side of things. We'd love to hear more about the philosophy, the business model. There's some things you guys, they would open and book with your employees over the years. Just learn a little bit more about that journey and things you brought that may be differentiating to you from other box plants out there. Yeah, thanks. That's an astute question coming from somebody that cares about the customers. So we on a customer level, I want the organization to be can-do towards, can-do. Yes, we can do it. And we're surrounded by can-do in our lives. I want customer calling and say, "Can we do this?" And it's impossible. And I hope our people will say, "Let me get back to it." And they come back with some options. Jeff, by the way, is a can-do. All the way in and out, can-do. Always can-do, which is why we keep going back to them. So that's a huge philosophy. I hope permeates the organization. The second thing I hope, honestly, is that the people think that they want to win. And not just for the company, but for themselves. They like what they're doing. They like coming to work. I'm hoping. And that the number one reason why people leave their job is what? Their boss. So I'm hoping that-and we do. We actually-we will let them do surveys telling us how well they're communicating with their boss and how's that working out. So can you tell us a little bit about those surveys? Several people have talked about them in previous podcasts, trying to really collect anonymous information to help you get better. How do you go about those? So what we'll do is we'll give the surveys of the people on the floor in the office. And we'll ask questions like, is your supervisor a good listener? Is she a good teacher? Do they help you when you need it? What was the last thing you learned from your supervisor? Are they a resource? That kind of thing. Positive questions. Over the years, we've let people go. We've given supervisors a chance. Say, look, this is what they're saying about you. You got to fix this. You want to become a better leader. This is what you've got to do. And if they do, we celebrate it. They get a bump. And they're known for getting better, improving. And if they don't, they're out. We do, by the way, for another one of these surveys. But that's one part of the organization, the soft part that I think is extremely important. That we have to be listening to the people that are working with us. Because they're on the ground every day. The customer again can do. And then suppliers, I like to think with the exception of a few moments every once in a while, when somebody really pisses me off, Jeff, I want to treat them like we treat customers. Yeah. I do. We rely on our supplier. And they do a phenomenal job. And the people that are working with Jeff are extremely competent and they care. Same with our paper suppliers. We and a lot of other small suppliers that we touch. They help us in one way or the other. And if we get the sense that they're really not interested in helping us, we go someplace else. So maybe unpack that even a little bit more because I'm interested when you talk about service and caring for your customers. And I think a lot of businesses say strived to provide an excellent client experience. In your business, what does that look like for a customer? The first and foremost is that we give them the service that they need at competitive price levels. Okay. And then we help solve problems. So if a customer comes in and says, we ran out of boxes, I need this stuff today. Then how do we get it to them? Today, one tomorrow, right? We are catched line is with FedEx or the box office. So delivery side. The other thing is I don't want people to call Atlas. I'm more than twice. I don't want people to go on hold for more than 10 seconds. I don't care if it's a customer or a supplier or a family member. Answer the phone. Get on the phone. So I want them to feel like everybody who calls in is important, especially customers. And they were there for how do you build that culture internally so that everyone understands that's the end game. Regardless of the department, they're working in. I think that like everything else, you got to repeat it over and over again. And that's what happens. It becomes true by its repetitive nature. Do you pose signs in your building anywhere, like your core values? You can see it. Yeah. I'll tell you, I'm not big on that, George, because they usually collect dust. Yeah. I wanted them to live it. And of course, it's good if they see it, but they get used to it. They don't notice it anymore. What I'm looking for, and I want to celebrate when people do these things, when they do heroic, something heroic for the customer, people to hear about it. Did you hear what So-and-so did? The guys on the plant floor were talking it all the time about what you guys did to help this customer and how important that was for that person's business. And then we talk about how important the customer is for us. If that conversation is going on a regular basis, they get it. These guys are blue collar workers that are basic CPAs when they're looking at their paycheck. They know what's important and what isn't important. They get it. And that's pretty much the way it is in every plan around the world. People know. Jeff mentioned earlier something about open book management. We got to get back to this, stop it because of COVID. You can't put a lot of people together in one room. But at the end of every month, we'd go over the financial statements, break down to net profit, bottom line, before tax. And that culture still has survived itself. We have scorecards out there so they know how they're doing on all the machines. And then there's a line of sight between what they do every day and how it connects to the financial statements at the end of the month. We give them good news, we give them bad news. We've lost some people over the years because of the bad news. But we've kept a lot. And we've built a culture where people are in the know. And they like it that way. They feel like there's a ownership there. Absolutely. They feel like part of the business, their actions ultimately trickle down to the bottom line. And you show them how that happens and when it doesn't happen. Imagine playing football on a team and never seeing the score. There's no chance on playing that. The rave is my way to do it this weekend. Wow. That's interesting. The thing that kind of sticks out to me with businesses that started the way your business has started. Obviously you've been in it for now for 40 years. You've learned a lot. At what point in your journey, did you start to maybe shift from the person who's doing a lot of the learning to the person who's doing a lot of the mentoring? There's a lot of employees in your business now that I'm sure been with you for a while that you've had a chance to invest in. What's the biggest or best advice you would give to one of your staff members or maybe someone who's new in the industry looking to break ground like you did many years ago? What would you say to them today if they're trying to dive deep into this wonderful business of ours? Yeah. That's a good question. There are two there. One is shifting from learning to teaching. And the reason why I'm here in Chicago this weekend is these next few days is because I want to learn. That's the only reason why I'm here. I like seeing some guys. That's a good thing. A lot of old friends in this business, but what am I going to learn? What am I going to take it home? Because when I stop learning, we're screwed. As a leader of the company. Now, for young people coming in, I like to think that they are also receptive to learning, which means they're receptive to change, which is not easy for any of us. But I think that's a main mandate for anybody in our organization. They got to want to learn. And by the way, when they're younger, that's the easiest time to learn. Having said that, there is a mandate, but when I taught at Georgetown University on and on for 15 years on and off, I taught entrepreneurship to the undergrad and the MBA students. And I had a lot of fun doing that because those guys learned fast. And they were there. They were paying a lot of money to learn. I enjoyed the undergrad more than the MBAs because the MBAs, first of all, you couldn't intimidate them. I don't know. You're pretty good at that. And there is some intimidation when it comes to learning or teaching because if it's too much, then they're not going to learn anything because you're just scared of it. If there's not enough, they're not going to do the work. That's the MBAs now. The undergrad is different. Smarter, the MBAs, because harder to get in to the undergrad than is the MBA program. But they're also really willing to learn. And they do respond to intimidation. The learning thing has always been big in my life. I fortunately had gone to some of the best schools in the world. My father was a phenomenal learner. First is class in high school, college in med school. My brother and sister were great. My mother was just pure common sense, growing up in a Boston Irish family. I'm really determined to move the organization in a learning way in making an learning organization. Can you speak a little bit then to how AICC has impacted you there? Because obviously some of their significant initiatives are all around being an educational source for the independent box maker, be it on the financial side, be it on the sales side, the machinery side, et cetera. Is that something you've been utilizing? How's that helped you? Yes. Our person in charge of HR has brought in the AICC's resources for learning on the web in webinars and introductions to the industry. And there's a lot of folks that have been through. I like to have more for sure. But the AICC's has done a great job. And I think the industry is unique in that people are willing to share. People like yourself, others are willing to share and participate in those webinars, CEO groups, et cetera, really share concerns, good practices, bad access, et cetera. And AICC, especially for the independent pulls that together and makes it available in a easier way. You asked me a question earlier, which I don't think I answered. But these young kids that come in, how do you assure that they learn? What are you doing to teach them? But they don't want to learn. I don't want to hire, which I think I made that point earlier. But I've had good experiences with these young people. They listen. They're very intent. And they listen actively. They do what I suggest. And that's not just the pleas of me. They know it's good for them. Yeah. And you got an AICC in the background. It's a wealth of information that they can dive into and really learn about the business. And this, by the way, is a great business. I've looked at a lot of different industries and have been in others because of the very nature of it's global, but local makes it a very special place. Yeah. I think of the onset you've described it quite well. And it's an industry of all chosen and have stayed in for a lot of reasons. One of which is the people. Yeah. It's full of a lot of overachievers, journey that is similar to yours in many ways. And they find themselves in a good spot. We encourage it. I have four kids. I got one of the business so far. I heard. Yeah. That's good. That's good stuff. I think it's a good place to be. There's a lot of opportunity. COVID changed the game completely for a lot of us. I said that. And I think we went from what do you do to, oh, wow, that's cool. I really like that. Oh, they're all over the place. So did you have to make any significant adjustments during COVID to run your business apart from the obvious things we did to protect employees and so forth? Yeah. What we did was we bought an MBA that arrived the month after COVID. So when the whole world was getting inundated with these orders, we were ready. And I'm much rather be lucky than smart. Really? You knew it was coming. He was planned well. I saw the tea leaves. No, it's happened now. I get that. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. No, we're blessed to have that happen. How much extra capacity did that purchase give you? Because obviously we all faced a bit of a surge. Yeah. Almost enough. Okay. Almost, I would say. It was by far the most productive machine in the plant besides the corrugator. And it was a Namba flexor, three color flexor, cold to glue, or with a die cutter. And we needed it. I can't tell you if it was a 25% bump or what, but it almost gave us enough. I mean, we were still behind when the whole world was struggling to just keep up. So we didn't lose a lot of business that got taken by competitors that were able to run it. We were tick that guy, who we were taken from other people that could run it. Right. Because we had that extra capacity. So there's a great move on our part. Lucky. You got to be good to get lucky. Sometimes you do. How about one of the more difficult times? I know you alluded to the fact that you get knocked down to get back up. That's one of your strengths. That's one of your flaws. I know it's not always been easy. It hasn't been for our company for sure. Talk a little bit if you were willing on some of the difficult times and what you did to recover. I'll tell you one, it comes to mind, but we've had events since then that are just as difficult. But three years into the business, we got to wake up call. We missed all of our covenants with the bank that we borrowed that money from. And they marched in basically in their black suits. He used to be one of them, right? Exactly. Yeah. So I knew what they were thinking. And the specifics were that we were, it was our fourth acquisition. We were buying a company that was three times bigger than we were called McMillan Blodell. You guys might remember that name. And it was a Canadian company. I had an American division. None of those Canadians just want to say. Oh, man. I agree. Shout out to Canadians. We bought the business. And I figured that it was losing $100,000 a month cash. And I thought we'd turn around at two months. That's the way I had on my pro forma. And papers a lot there for them would actually happen. It took us about 10 months. And we almost lost everything. This is after five years of being in the business. And it turned into being a total nightmare. See, the economy turned to the wrong way. And right after we bought the business and we couldn't make the payments, the bank was pissed off. The seller was pissed off because we didn't buy them up completely. He carried a note. We were losing customers left and right. We moved into another operation where our guys moved in with these other guys. And we clashed. They were union. We broke the union. And we had guys from our operation that did not know how to run their machines. But knew how to run our orders. And we had 100 guys from their operation that could run their machines, but didn't know how to run our orders. So it was a total chishol. And finally, we broke through it after about 10 months, got things organized. But that was the closest I think we've ever been to blowing up the whole thing. And we've done that two or three times since. Don't seem to learn from our mistakes. But yeah, here we are. Yeah, you continue to run away. Yeah, here we are still breathing. So has most of your growth over the years come from acquisition or just from your reps just driving good. No, it's a great question. I would say that most growth came from acquisition up until COVID. Okay. And then COVID came in and almost doubled the size of the business. Have you retained a lot of that surge in new business from COVID? Yeah. A lot of those customers that maybe came to you because their current provider couldn't provide you. Correct. Right. Yeah. And also our customers got busier. That says a lot for your business model. You talked about the extreme service. Yeah, they want to deal with it. Yeah. Absolutely. When you think about acquisitions, basically in our case, with exception, maybe four of them where we actually acquired the building to four, five, most of them were just customer lists. And you hire some of the folks and then take the customers and that's a win. And the other ones were ones that we bought a business that could advocate much like ours and a 200,000 square foot facility broke the union there. But blew up the business. We just couldn't make it work up there. And it was very painful. Set us back years. You went in the loads. That's the game. When you win, it's great. When you lose, you just got to make sure you don't lose everything. Have you ever acquired a business that was really local to your business competitor across the train tracks? Yes. So I was talking to a gentleman actually this morning who's walking through that same journey. And one of the things that came up was how do you manage the new sales team with your existing sales team when there might be some competition or similar customers or similar territories depending on how you map out your sales plan and where they're allowed to go. What would you say to this person who's about to maybe walk down that path? And he's figuring out, man, how am I going to divvy up the mix of business with all these new salespeople and existing salespeople? It's a sticky problem. It is. You got to make sure those sales guys stay. That's what you're buying. Yeah. You got to make them happy. Some of it's horse trading. One on one with each of them. Maybe at some point you get two in a room, but I'd rather not. Okay. One on one. Look, this is what we can do. You got some overlap here. You might even, if there's a different product line, if somebody's selling packaging and somebody's selling boxes, they might even be talking to two different buyers, but it's got to be done very delicately. You have to keep the sales guys. That's it. You just keep period and make it work. Because the business can fade very quickly if those reps leave. I had that happen. Okay. We bought a business with 15 sales guys and 13 of them left on day one. Oh, honestly, it's one of the most amazing parts of the story that you and Peter bring to our industry is you didn't have a sales background in the box industry, which is the most common entrepreneurial branch off that you see. You start with some order. You start with some key accounts. You didn't have that. No. You bought a business and figured out after the fact that you look at guys that are most successful starting cheap plants. Their guys were in sales company. They brought their customers with them. That's the only way you can do it. There was a guy who was really a really good man who was under industry for a long time introduced me to open book management. He was a production guy. Brilliant leader and he left working for us and tried to start a cheap plant and he blew up his nest egg and thing. Whole thing blew up. You got to have the sales. You got to have the sales, right? And that's what he's buying. So that's the thing that he's got to treasure that. Make sure that works. And it's not easy to ask me what the solution is. It's going to be on an individual by an individual basis. It does. But it doesn't take away from the anxiety that's ahead. Because most times when you talk to people, you say you bought a business in Connecticut or Baltimore, those sales reps most likely aren't going to cross mass and cause any issues. But when you're buying another business in the same community, which we did. Then that's going to pose some challenges. And yeah, because these guys might have this equally as strong relationship with one buyer. Yeah. But there's ways. Well, how about we give him a little bit of business break and dive into some other areas of interest here? Yeah. And then his wife Elizabeth or philanthropist. I know they do quite a bit in charity work. Can you just share as much as you're willing? What you guys do? Yeah. Sure. We got involved with a group called Hope for Children that was in Ethiopia. Jeff, were you very generous with us as well? I'd go back to our suppliers. We had a buyer who was a real pro who's semi-retired. Now he's living at home. We're doing his retirement thing, but we still work with him. And he used to get nervous when I talked to suppliers about these charities because I had one supplier. I think he was an ink supplier. And I called them and I said, "Can you help me?" He said, "Paul, we don't really do that." And I said, "Jimmy, do me a favor, Jimmy. Take a look at what we bought last year and give me a call." I mean, I basically mafiaed him. He did it on a video call while we had his boxing gloves. Right. I did it just because of these charities. I want to help the kids. Sure. And then we went to Ethiopia twice. Yeah, 10 and 12. And I'll tell you something. The first day or two that we went to Ethiopia on our first trip, it knocked the wind out of all of us. Right. It was so sad to see how these kids were living. And it gave us some comfort that we were over there helping them, but it's an impossible task. Yeah. And so sad. But why I think my wife will tell you that we helped 900 kids get through school. We provided the tutoring, food, shelter, and medical for a lot of kids. Ethiopia, they had a AIDS fam and that knocked out a lot of parents. So these young kids were all orphaned. And I mean, the mistake of grabbing a bunch of food at the hotel we're staying in. Yep. And I handed it out to these kids on the street. And they got beat up by other people. They wanted the bread. They just, it was like a feeding frenzy. And I never did that again, obviously. But felt what a dumbass. You just wouldn't imagine. Yeah. What it does. These kids have a need forever. We experienced a lot of third world poverty that was beyond anything we've ever seen. I think honestly it was good for all of us. Not just our kids to see that. What was the connection? There's a lot of charities to get behind. There's a lot of good people out there doing great work and helping them marginalize and caring for those that need it. How did you choose to support this organization? My older daughter was one of the teachers in her school had this organization. Okay, who built it and started ran it. And she came home one night and said, "Mommy, I want to go to Ethiopia to help children." And my wife who hates to fly said, "Oh my God, really?" And I said, "I'll go with you." And there's a bell, our younger daughter, by four years ago. I want to go. And my wife looked at the three of us and said, "Guess we're all going." Okay. So that's how that gets started. And we got out there. There's no charity I'm working on right now, which is again for kids who are sick and as you're by John. And we're doing some things. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, Jeff. I think one of the things you can think about is, what do you think you'll leave a mark or an impact, right? Of all the good things I think we've done for our people. Those two charities might have the largest footprint that we leave to help with those kids. Thank you for sharing that. You and so many people on the industry are backing different charities and are really generous. That's another great thing about that. That's cool. It's close up in almost every podcast. Really? It does. You don't expect it sometimes from people, but I think what's really great about our industry is, "Man, we like to have a good time." And definitely that comes out at a lot of these meetings where we come together. But when you get to hear the story behind the people. Yeah. And there's deep care and passion, not just for the business, but for the staff that they employ, the community in which their business is in. And very generous people in this industry. Extremely generous. Beyond what I think many people would expect. Yeah. With time, talent and money, it would generate industry within the industry itself. As I mentioned earlier, the SEC is able to pull it together, but there's so many people willing to help and mentor and be involved and put some of these schools together. Likewise, externally. Our industry has a big footprint in doing good things in the US and around the world with the money that's made. I'm very proud of that. And George's point, just about every podcast, it comes up in some capacity. I was aware of your work and what your family does and it's amazing. That was important to have that. Yeah, and thank you. I appreciate that, man. Hey, Paul, maybe we change gears. We want to talk a little bit about succession planning. You've been in the business for 40 years. You don't have kids in the business at the moment. But if you put any thought into what the next 40 years for this business looks like and where it's going to go. You're right. Our children on both sides are not interested. Which surprises me a little bit because boxes are really cool. Come on. Absolutely. Remember in the graduate plastics? No. Boxes. Yeah. I've been interested in the blue zones around the country around the world. Okay. These are zones where they have a large population of people over a hundred years old. Okay. And they're called by the way they're called centenarians. Yep, centenarians. There's a special on Netflix about it. Yeah, exactly. And they interviewed one woman who was 117 years old and said, what's your secret? She said, I just keep working. I never stop working. I think I've been that pool where there's always a chance we might sell the business. But I'm having fun. I'm having fun. The day to day is more interesting today than it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago for me. Okay. The stakes are higher and you win more. But we can lose more too. But after all this time in the business and getting pretty good at it still screw up. Which drives me crazy to make that same mistake twice. But I like it. I like what I'm doing. I think my brother might be more interested in moving on than I am. But he looks like he's starting to have some fun again too. It goes up and down over 40 years. So I think at this time we don't have a plan for succession. But the plan wouldn't be to stick. Now, if I could figure out a way to work two or three days a week or just work the 12 o'clock and then retire half time and just travel more, do more things but still stay involved. Yeah, that would be good. That would be the best succession I could do. Right. Yeah. For sure. If you figure it out, I'd love to learn about it. Yeah, no kids. Sounds awesome. You know what's interesting. I did talk to a gentleman yesterday. And of course, I forget his name. But it was an interesting business model. I'm seeing these like companies start up where they're like outsourcing a CFO or a CEO on a part time basis. Just whatever you need. So if you need to someone to fill the gap where you work part time. Yeah. You could actually hire someone because you don't want to hire someone full time when you're going to be working part time doing that role. You could actually hire a CEO for just the hours that you're not going to be in that position. Obviously, you need to develop a great amount of trust with that person. Yeah. Of course. But it's kind of a cool business concept. I'm a CEO. I'm looking for business or a CFO. I'm trying to support you. But if you only need me two days a week, I'm good with that. So that was an interesting concept. Do you think that would interest you? No, I think it sounds like a train wreck. To me, however, yeah, if maybe that's where you go to get somebody to replace you, you're still working two or three days. But that guy's got to work 60 hours a week. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. It would be a big disconnect. That person has to be involved all the time. I'll do that if I could. It's an interesting concept. I just don't know where you get the quality of person that would be willing to come in and work part time like that. Somebody that wants to be a true CEO, they don't want to work 20 hours a week. They want to come in and they want to run the business. Have that culture. CFO. CFO, maybe. I haven't seen it done, but it was an interesting concept. Why don't you run half a run half a week? Yeah, exactly. That'll make things really complicated. I thought we're trying to simplify you. We're trying. But hey, Santanaran, you brought that up. And I know you have an extreme commitment to your health. You've done some amazing things. And I've seen you in the gym. And it sounds like you want to live to be a hundred and be on that Netflix documentary as well. Tell us a little bit about if you're willing. What's your day look like? What's your week look? Getting how you take care of yourself. So you can maintain this high level of performance that you have and stress and all the things going on. I love sports. I'm actually going to get an epidural next Monday morning with some other chemicals hormones fixed in there. Because my back, it's inoperable. But I got five bad discs. They're all crushed. I got stenosis, scoliosis. I'm sure I got measles and everything back there. It's a mess. So hopefully that will do it. And I can do more fun stuff. But you know, right now I'd like to play golf. Can't play much because I pay for it for two or three or four days afterwards. And I'm getting worse and worse. In fact, after in the 19th hall, we're having a couple of sips and looking back. I honestly wonder if I ever was an athlete. Because I played so poorly. And when you get to a starting handicap, call me and then we'll start playing. There you go. Exactly. And I think we're in that league right now. But I'd love to be able to do that. And then other things, I'd love to be able to play squash again or maybe try pickle ball. But right now, what I do is all the boring stuff. I'll swim. You're still big. I'll get in on the elliptical. Maybe on the bike. And it's all hit stuff. You're familiar with hit high intensity. Yes. So you get your heart rate up. And I got this guy that is a diet and fitness coach. He's my favorite asshole. And he just gets in your face. Sometimes I got to give him a husband. I got to push him away with it. But he's really helpful. And he's a good man. But so he helps. But I've gone heli skiing for the last 25 years in the Canadian Rockies, right? Beautiful. British Columbia. And I'd hate to stop that. But I had two ankle replacements two years ago. So I'm going to start to help again. You just beat the hell out of my body. And I'm sure there are many out there that are beating their body up as much as I have. But they don't have a genetic predilection for body failure. So mine is. So I'm starting to replace stuff. That's the Irish half. The time has to and fine. Oh, absolutely. I agree with that actually. But the Irish side is more fun. It is for sure. But I've had both ankles replaced. I think the next step would be knees and then shoulders. And then I'm going to look for maybe a new lobe. Get something replaced in my brain. But other than that, things are good. Things are good. I working out now. I try to keep up with my wife. She walks nine and a half to 10 miles every day and never gives up. Brain, snow, heat. She's out doing it. That's a big motivator for me. I've been all the swimming thing. You did the chest. We read something about that. Tell us just a couple of minutes. What was that? You did. It was a four and a half mile swim across Jespeake Bay. Nice. And I did it eight times in one day. Are you wearing anything in case you'd start sinking? No. Why would you do that? Yeah. But yeah, I did it over 10 years. I stopped doing it because I was getting sick and at the either from swallowing the water or from up and down or whatever. And I thought, yeah, this isn't that much fun anymore. But I missed the economy. I can't believe it was ever fun. Four and a half miles across the Jespeake with that. It's a long way. That's a long ride to me. Wow. Anyway, so yeah, try to stay busy, stay active, lifting weights, working on curls. Curls for the girls. There you go. Right. Do you have a routine, a set routine? Yeah. What does that look like? If I stop working, say it's seven o'clock. Yeah. The time I have with my wife, which is treasured. Yes. Right. Until maybe 1030. We'll be up watching some crazy series or movie until 11 o'clock and turn lights on. Right. So my, I'm working out in the afternoon. Okay. Usually. But to get it done early in the morning will be good without a doubt. All right. First of all, getting up early has been hard for me. In general, particularly if you go to bed 11, getting up at six hours. I need more than that. Particularly when I'm working out, you need more sleep. If you're pushing it pretty hard. And then at five o'clock in the morning is still dark out and you're thinking you're going to go kick your own ass right now. Yeah. I'm going back to sleep. Come on. Okay. But yeah. But getting it over with getting up better, I got up at o' dark 30 this morning with you guys and that get on early flight. I wasn't saying to fly out here. Yeah. Right. And I did that because I didn't want to leave my wife last night. Sure. You just love her. You cherish her. I wanted to be around time. I got up early, came out here and I tell you it's a good way to start the day early. But you got to go to bed early because you need to sleep. What's the key to a successful marriage? Oh, I learned that after. It took me 20 years to learn that. Okay. It did 20 years. Just as a man just to which you're told. I figured that was coming. Yeah. That's simple. There's a few reasons for that. Okay. I think most men would agree with me. That is the answer. Most men might not agree with me. Women are smarter than we are. They are. As it relates to matters of the heart and the home, stands down. We're not even the same league. Not even the same league. That kind of intelligence we're dealing with there. So chances are if you just do what you're told and they make all the decisions, you're going to be better off anyway. There you go. It seems pretty basic. I was a math major. That's so I think it makes some sort of area for exactly. Yeah. So how many years are you celebrating? We just celebrated 35. 35. Congratulations. Yeah. Wow. This has been just a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate you making time for us. Yeah. It's like you've been involved at it, Jeff. Honor that you said yes. I learned a lot from you personally. We've been through the ups and downs together. And it's amazing how much we've learned. And from one another, you're one of the true entrepreneurs in our industry. And I'm glad to hear you're not going anywhere anytime soon. No, a true honor to have you here. And I really appreciate you making time for this and that. Thank you. It's a great podcast. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts.