Public Sector vs Private Sector - - DT130.5

[Music] Next week you don't go to Canada two weeks. Next week. Sunday. Okay. What do I think? I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I go to Canada on Sunday. I have been wrong about those things before, but I'm pretty sure. Okay. Canada. Here I come. Yeah, I guess so. Fort McBrughery. Then Calgary. Then Cranbrook. British Columbia. I just had a calendar thing of the podcast, but you had canceled on it for some reason, but it was still on my calendar. That makes more sense. Okay. I move into my new house a week from tomorrow. A week from tomorrow's what's tomorrow Wednesday. Oh, next Wednesday. Oh, that's great. I'll be in Canada. Yeah, you're going to be in Canada. I don't have to worry about me. I'll sign off of your day off. Thank you. Yeah. I will say that the timing is immaculate. And maybe I feel that way every time you go out of town. And I don't, I don't mean it in a negative way. Oh, that's such a nice. I really, I really mean it very positively. Yes, you've gone again. Well, my schedule is awfully often dictated by your schedule, which is fine. I think plenty of people who work at Build With are their schedules are dictated by your schedule. My schedule is dictated by my schedule. Sure. Yeah. Your personal schedule is dictated by your work schedule. And, but so when you're gone, it's a little easier to like work in my life into my work and my work into my life a little bit more. Which I understand that that's a little bit of like a privileged place to be because plenty of people don't have that kind of flexibility. But so I'm glad that when you're going to be gone, I can work in working with the moving process and vice versa. See, the funny thing is when I'm gone, I'm working more than when I'm here. You are. So, but it's also, it's also a different approach to live. You're kind of like, do you feel like when you come back from a trip, you're getting to things you've neglected? I don't think you're not like, you know, it's just this weird, it's like I, it's like I didn't go in the trip. It's like I just go to my other job. Yeah. So it's not like when I'm traveling, I'm missing out on my day job. There are some things that I need to do. I mean, I'm very frequently on my computer on the hood of rental car. Sure. Very frequently. But I try to cut out as much as I can while I'm traveling just because I'm traveling some on planes or whatever it is. So, no, talking on planes, my cell service, all the time sucks. I'm in a coal mine and I don't want to be talking to somebody when I'm in a coal mine. I got to be present. So it's more cool to look at a coal mine than to be looking at your phone at a coal mine. Yes. Yeah. So I, I look at it almost like two completely different jobs. Well, and that's what everybody wants. Two full-time jobs. It's awesome. Yeah, it's, it's when I, I tell people, yeah, I live a very unsustainable life. They think I'm joking. I'm not joking. Well, yeah, and you, you're going to have a bit. I can't do this forever. I'm going to go right now. I'm fine. I'm fine. Everybody is the, I'm not upset. I'm not upset. Is the vibe, is the vibe at the office any different when I'm gone? I don't think so. I want to steal more fear. I want people to be fearful. It is interesting when I come into the office and their boots. If, if we don't have a podcast scheduled and I come in, I do find myself almost like trying to locate you. I don't know if it's just, if I know Aaron's here, does that change something about what I'm going to do? I can't even speak to that. But I do find myself, if we don't have a podcast scheduled, I'll almost walk the long way to my desk. It's to be like, if Aaron's here, you might want to talk about, I don't know. I can't explain why, but I almost always do that. Yeah. If we do have a podcast, I know you're here, so I'm never going to go find you. Correct. If I'm in town and I'm here too, I typically don't leave the office and I'll be here from 630. I typically leave around 334. You're getting here that early? Work a little bit. Yeah, I'm here in town. Yeah, 630 every morning. Because I'll cook breakfast. Oh, that's right. I'll do a little work. You do some life stuff here. Then I'll cook my breakfast. That's when I go back to work. Nice. I don't work that hard. Come on. Come on. It's be serious. Yeah. But it's, yeah, I try to limit any kind of having to go anywhere else when I'm in town. Because I need all the hours I can get in the office working on office stuff. If you're in town for like a full seven day period, how many hours do you think you're spending at the office? I mean, a full day every day. Every day when you're in. Yeah. I'm in every day. I'm here. Every day I'm in town in an office. I do think that kind of makes sense more than, you know, that's obviously not the expectation for anybody else who works here and build it. But because there is such like a personal connection for the space for you, I mean, obviously you put so much actual thought and planning and strategy into the space too. Like it is going to feel a little bit more like yours in an exciting place to be in and say other people who were just like, where they work. Well, I want to, I built it to be a place that I want to be at. Yeah. Right. So, so here we are. You built it for other people to enjoy, but also you really want to enjoy it. Yeah. And I mean, that's why I'm here all the time. I just like being here. Yeah. And I like being with the people that we have here. And on the weekends, I'm here a little less now than I was before when I, since I moved because I really like where I live now. Yeah, places sweet. So I'll hang out at home a lot more too. Well, and I think kind of the way your new place looks, it kind of looks like a baby building office a little bit. It's all great. Yeah. Old building. That's just my job. Yeah. You can't, you can't replace it. You can't, you can't get that with new construction. You can try. And I've seen people get close, but if you, if you, to get close, you have to be really focused on the details and do it right. And most people will do it right. Well, I mean, in Germantown, where we are, there's that big, more than, I mean, I'm like the word. I'm like a bunch of them. Yeah. It's a bunch of different buildings, but they're all really old. They all kind of connect a little bit. I mean, those are high demand places to live because of your really old and cool. Yeah. You just can't get that with anything. Because the damn apartment developers came in and wrecked everything in town because they're like, you know what? We're just not going to get the dollars per square foot. We need to go build new garbage. Well, they built new garbage. And they've built a lot of new garbage. They overcharge for it. And people pay for it. Yeah. Yeah. The rental market in Nashville is not ideal for those needing to rent a place. No. But that's what you get when you're living in a happening place. I would agree. I see everybody complains about economic growth because all the traffic or this and that. But it's like, I didn't see you complaining about your home going up twice in value. Like, you know, I'm speaking generally. You know, you're specifically. But yeah, but there's, it's like, you've benefited plenty. Yeah. And you're just glossing over all of that, focusing on the downsides when I, like, you've made out pretty well here too. So I get it. I get the frustration. But also it's not like you didn't get anything. Well, you get most people. Some people don't matter. There are people who, and I guess who I think of in that case or you are the folks who essentially get priced out of where they live because like the next round of rent or whatever, it's like, well, the market is so much higher now. So it costs this much to live here now. And it's, if you are an owner, I mean, obviously you just don't see that same kind of value growth. That's just part of it. But I'm sure it's very frustrating. Mm-hmm. Folks. Anyway, we don't need to debate the ethics of land lordship of your on dirt talk. Rent control. Yeah. We just don't have to. It's not rent control talk. It's dirt talk. I fall off fake entrepreneurship page that just makes fun of entrepreneurship pages. Oh, love it. It's so funny. Okay. What's it called? Because now I need to know. It's like, entrepreneurship. Like, you can send it to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's entrepreneur is about wrong. Oh, I love it. It's, it's, it's really stupid. But I, I appreciate it. Mm-hmm. And one of the running jokes is make sure you tip your landlord for how much they do for you. I don't know why that's so stupid, but also kind of funny. There's an East Nashville page. And every once in a while, somebody will post something that's like, you don't understand how hardly landlords have it. And they just get roasted. And it's just so much sarcasm. A lot of comments on like, but what about the landlords? It's like, okay. Like you clearly did not read the room when you made this post on here because they get killed every time. Yeah. Make sure you tip your landlord. Make sure to tip your landlord. Yeah. That's great. Let me live there. They're doing the Lord's work. Mm-hmm. Any hill. Dirt talk. Dirt talk. Build it. Build it. Dirt stuff. Dirt talk studio. Welcome back. I'm Alex Horton, I'm Taren Witt. Yeah. So to go to Canada next week, Canada should be pretty cool. I'm, we fly into Fort McMurray. Uh, some place I've always wanted to visit. Mm-hmm. Not high up on the, if you look at like the top 10 places to visit in Canada, I'd be pretty surprised if Fort McMurray made it on that list. Sure. If, if at all, like, on any, anyways. Yeah, yeah, there's just, no, not the place. However, one of my top places I've wanted to visit in Canada, because it's one of the biggest mining markets in the world. Mm-hmm. So what kind of mining do they do there? Oil sands. Mm-hmm. So the primary product is heavy Canadian crude oil. Then to get it, it's not by drilling, it's by mining, because the oil is within the sand. So they mine the sand, they wash the sand, and the water separates the oil from the sand, they discard the sand, reclaim the land, and they get oil as a result. That's a much heavier crude oil than a lot of other places in the world. Obviously you've simplified the process for the sake of the conversation. Yes. But that's, even sounds more simple than maybe other ways of getting oil. Yeah, yeah, it's much simplified, but other oil, you don't have to mine it, you drill. You drill for it. And you fracture. Which is, I mean, the drilling and fracturing process today is widely advanced. It's amazing what they're doing. They're drilling way down in the earth vertically, and then they go horizontally even further. And then they deliberately break the line, using charges to bust it open, and then they flush water and sand and a little bit of lubricant down in there at really, really high pressure, and it fractures the rock, and then outcomes the gas and oil. It's a wild process. This is just big troubles, big trucks. Move and dirt. Yeah, it's kind of like a nice way, I think, like an alternative. No, I'm not talking about the environment or anything like that. I'm just talking trucks move and dirt. Yeah, it's my speed. I just want to see it. I want to see what it really looks like. It doesn't historically have the best. The environmental groups haven't been super stoked about it. So it has a pretty bad, it has a black eye, which is unfortunate because then the mining companies have just forbidden any kind of press whatsoever. Sure. And so no one knows. Because it's not worth it. Yeah. And now, like in the hiring problem up there, gnarly. Crazy what these companies have to do to hire people up there right now. And it is all just a wage war and the wages are ridiculously, it is, it is wacky. And especially with oil on my top, they're like, because you're a little limited on oil production when it comes to drilling. Because you don't just bring wells online overnight. You have to go drill them, you have to go fracture them, you have to build the infrastructure. Whereas with mining, it's a little bit different. The more material move, the more oil you can produce in theory. So there's a lot of years and this is such a capital intensive oil production process that they need the barrel of oil to be, I don't know, it's like maybe, and I'm speaking on my ass right now, but roughly like $60 barrel, which is way higher than West Texas typically needs it to make money. So they have hemorrhaged money, hemorrhaged money years prior. Because they've invested so much into these operations, it's more expensive to shut them down than to keep them running at a loss. So they've run at a loss for quite a few years. Now they are printing money, hand over fist. So it's like, you want to get as much material through the plant as you possibly can because that means more dollars in your pocket. Nobody's pocket. Somebody's pocket, not my pocket, but somehow my pocket. Typically, soulless investors. Sure. Well, you know, if you're making money, you're the bad guy. That's what this is. Yes. So Fort McMurray, really, really excited about that. Really cool. Then we go to Calgary, see some work in Calgary. We're going to see FeningCat. So the cat dealer up there, which I'm really excited about. Then we go over up into the Rockies, down into Cranbrook through BAMF to see our friends at McKay. BAMF. Ugly place. Not even worth really enjoying my there. Going by the way. We'll just be driving. Hey, my mind stopped. That is one of the best places you drive through. That's for sure. Someone's going to do it. Someone's got to do it. BAMF has been on my to do list, we'd say, in terms of a place I would like to travel. My friends went up there three years ago, and I was supposed to go with them, but I was working, go figure. I dare you. People could make the truck to Canada, which was a little sad, but here I am going for work. Yeah, now your work pace for it. Your boss. Yeah. Yeah, now my boss is taking for it. Yeah, it's, which travels a perk, man. I have it so good. I do have a good, but I do have a good, but also it's hard. It's also running joke. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to see the vlog content that's going to come out of this one. I think it'll be a good one. It's actually a good one. I don't, I don't really know how it's going to end up. I don't like going to Europe earlier this year. We're going to the Middle East earlier this year. I knew going into it. Yeah, this is going to be pretty damn good. Pretty damn good. This one. I'm, I'm optimistic that it's going to be pretty damn good, but I have no idea. It's more of, it's more of an exploratory visit. Hello, Canadians. What you got? Built with us here. Show us your dirt. Well, I feel like there has been a lot of interest both from people wanting, build with folks to come to Canada as well as people are saying, like you should go see this stuff in Canada. Yeah. I, we have a lot of Canada that was into this podcast. Yeah. That follow us online that have said, come up to Canada, man. There is a lot of dirt up here. So here I am. I'm on my way. We'll see you guys soon. Meet in Greek. Meet in Greek. Yeah. Meet in Greek. This week, Wednesday. The Calgary Tim Hortons. We mark there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Tim Hortons. They probably have chilies up there. They probably have chilies. They probably do. If they had red lobster in Dubai. That's how it's going to say for sure of chilies in Calgary. The Texas Roadhouse in Dubai. Right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Red lobster in Texas Roadhouse. They probably have a chilies in, I'm sure they have a chilies in Dubai too. Yeah. Good for chilies. International brand. International brand on the market. That's buildwood, baby. Buildwood. International. Worldwide. What is it? What do you have to do to be an international company? I haven't figured that one out yet. Do you have to have employees in multiple countries or just do work in multiple countries? I think we just do work. Well, then I think we're an international company. So yeah, we've done work internationally from a photography video standpoint. And now, buildwood training, our software product is in-- Certainly in multiple countries. Yes, in multiple countries. I think Australia. I'm sure. Canada for sure. And maybe another country. So we're in it. At least three countries. We're in interest with the UK. I don't know where we are at the end. Maybe New Zealand. Yeah. All good places. Oh, yeah. Do I need to send some teams out to those places? You know? Well, this time. Australia, I hope to go out to early next year. So nice. Because they're on the whole opposite season game. So winter will be summer work. We'll be there. Summer work. And I've heard summer in Australia is just gorgeous. Greg, I've heard it's the worst time to go. Very narrowly. I'll be there anyway. Yeah. Because I love to-- I'm a glutton for punishment. And you're good friend Jimmy Starbuck lives there. Yeah, it's a go see Jimmy. Because he visited me this year. So it's only right if I go visit Jimmy next year. The problem-- the problem with Canada and Australia and all these other countries. The more you see, the more there is to see. So you go-- I start looking at what I want to go see in Canada and start to realize, oh, my word. I can't hit all this. There is a big place. Yeah. And there's a lot of cool stuff here. So the reality is it's going to be a lot of trips to actually see what we're hoping to see. Well, that's like when you go on a trip that's multiple cities. And when you-- when you get back and you're telling somebody about it, it's like, yeah, I could have done that whole trip just in the city A. You know what I mean? Yes. And I think that's pretty typical, not even just with our work, but I think specifically to our work. That's the trouble. That's the most frustrating thing about my life is I want to-- like all these people reach out, hey, come to my job say, hey, come to-- I want to go to my job. You're like, that would be amazing. I can't. I would love to go see you in your backhoe. Yeah. And I'm not being sarcastic. I would love to hang out with you in your backhoe. I wouldn't want nothing more than that. First to chat about here in the Dirt Talk Studio today. Right, ready for it? - Yeah. - Joo, Joo, Joo. The theme for today is public work versus private. Ooh. - That's so fun. - That's a good one. - So we've had on the Dirt Talk podcast, plenty of folks who focus on only doing public work. We've had plenty of folks who only do private work, private projects. So I guess the most broad question that comes to mind for me is why should. No, actually before that, do companies typically do both or is it mostly you kind of pick one or the other? - Most companies do both. - They do both. - Okay. - Most. - Okay. - Yeah. - I do, when we're talking to CW Matthews, do they mostly do public works? - They do all public work. - All public work. - Okay. - When you go up, so the way it typically breaks down is, if you are way up a big, big, big company, a lot of times you're typically more public work because that's where the multi-billion dollar projects are. - Yeah. - You're not gonna go build a billion dollar driveway. - No, I mean, see what has changed the game a little bit are all these manufacturing plants. So like the TSMC semiconductor plant, now that's a $15, $16, $17 billion project in Phoenix, Arizona. - And that's private. - That's private. - Well, the government is shacking in a lot of that. They're not writing a $17 billion dollar check, but don't worry about that. It's lots of jobs, don't worry about it. - Yeah. - You tax bear, you're getting screwed, but don't worry about it, don't worry about it. But that's technically, yes, private work. So that has tilted the scales a little bit, and it seems like it's only picking up, especially prompted by COVID, because people have started to recognize, we should probably build stuff in our country, because when trade routes get shut down, and other countries get shut down, that really screws us over. Yeah, newsflash. - Turns out. - So we are ramping up our own production capacity. I think it's overstated. All these plants are fantastic, but it's the manufacturing capacity here is nowhere even close to what it should. You can't make a dent in that yet. No, so general rule of thumb, the much, much, much bigger infrastructure companies are typically public works. - Okay. - That's where the multi-billion dollar contracts are. On the other side, the smaller companies are typically private, as that is the natural place to start out. - Kind of like an easier club to get into. - Residential construction. Yeah, you don't need the resume. There's not all the paperwork and overhead required and bonding to go get into public sphere. And then you start to get a little bit bigger, and then the natural progression is typically you start to do both. And most companies, a lot of companies in the middle, they end up with a blend of both. Sometimes they're all private, sometimes they're all public. The ones that are all private are the ones that are, it's really good when it's really good, but that is a tricky place to be in at the same time, because then you get a little dependent on the market. So when the market goes down, if you're just working for residential, for example, that one. So the reason why a lot of companies in the middle split between public and private is because they're essentially hedging. No matter where the market is, they'll always have work. - They'll always have work. - Yeah, correct. 'Cause your backlog with the government, all of that has been appropriated. The budget's there, so it's not like the government. I mean, sometimes the government can say, well, we're not gonna do this right now, but that's rare. That's for design changes or permitting, whatever it is. So your backlog from your private sector, or public sector is pretty strong. Private, it's pretty strong with the good companies, but in theory, a private company could pause their work at any one time. - Yeah. - And maybe they can't do that, maybe that ends up in litigation or whatever it is, but now you're litigating, it's Amazon or whoever it is. So we're a big, - We want to do that. - Yeah, do you are Horton, or I don't know who that would be, but. So that's kind of your spread. - Okay. - So then typically, the benefits of getting into public work, are just that the projects are typically bigger. They're typically bigger. There's always public work. Say the market goes down. - It's government's suspending. - Yeah, my mom works for a county engineer and nothing changed with what they were. - Yeah, so it's a little bit more stable. - Mm-hmm. - It's just good, consistent work. - Okay. - And there's no right formula. Like a CW Matthews, they're 100% public work. - 'Cause it just works out for them. - Yeah, we know companies that are 100% private work. - Great, it's working out from great. - Okay, awesome. - What are the downsides then of getting into public work? - It's way, it's the margins sometimes aren't as good. It's sometimes more competitive. I don't know if that's necessarily true or not. The administrative burden is a lot more. 'Cause you need to manage all the paperwork and the pay apps and the permitting and there's a lot more there. Typically, in public work, you're dealing with the public. A lot of times. So if you're building a highway, you see a lot of the public, there's cars and there's a lot more there. So it's, there's a lot of hoops that jump through. You don't get paid as quickly, typically. So sometimes you're carrying work for 30, 60, 90 days a lot of times, pretty often. - Yeah, you gotta fund your own work. - Yeah, yeah, you have to bond your projects so you need significant bonding capacity if you're bidding larger work. A lot of it's alternative delivery, while not a lot of it, but some of it now is alternative delivery, so you need a resume to even get in the door. You're competing with much bigger companies. A lot of times, like a keywit, or a floor or somebody with much deeper pockets than you. - And you're gonna floor it a smaller margin in the first place, right? - Yeah, they're designed, like the companies are equipped to go build a job like that, build a billion dollar job. - And so then, but then there are certainly some companies who would be like, I just wanna avoid that racket, not for us. - Maybe they have a good thing going in the residential construction work, for example. They're just gonna blow and go. - I, again, every single company has a different formula. - Okay. - There's no one formula. Oh, if I were a contractor, I would do this. It is, it's all over the board, but typically it's a blend. It's typically, it's like a 6040 blend in one of two directions. - Like I can get some of this work this way, and that works for me, and I can get some of this kind of work this way, and that also works for me. And that's just what we do. - Yeah. - Okay. - That's interesting to me. You know, I feel like, obviously CW Matthews is one that I thought of when Dan Garcia, who was on the dirt talk podcast, go listen to that episode, when he was talking about, you know, it is all public work. And I think I just had never really put together that like, well, at a certain level, most private projects just are not going to be as lucrative as larger public works. Just because. - Well, but you have to look at it, and a revenue does not equal profit. So sure, there's a lot more potential revenue on the public side of things, but the profit's not there. - Well, it costs so much to do it in the first place. - And it's almost, it's almost always low bid. - Yeah. - And so it's, and there's, again, there's a more administrative burden there. And the government's not necessarily going to be working with you if things go wrong. So it's just, it's a different kind of work. It's a different kind of owner. And then, you know, the world that CW Matthews lives in, they're in a DOT space. So that's kind of the big government. - Yeah. - But you could go work for a small municipality, you know, doing waterline repairs, you know, small, like a $20,000 job for the government, or you could be doing job order contracting for the government, where hey, we're going to guarantee you $500,000 worth of work this year. And whenever the government calls you, you go out and fix stuff. You just go do it. There's all different, there's, there's, there's a spectrum of government work, or you can just work for the Army Corps, or you can just work for the water district, or it just worked for the power company. There's, there's different tiers to even government work. - Yeah. - When you're talking about low bid, basically in public work, it's, and you're saying it's almost, almost always low bid or is low bid straight up. - Almost always, except for the really bigger complex projects now, the really bigger complex projects will typically have a design build or construction manager at risk, or something else that kind of make a proposal process. So it is, you are, a price, the price is factored into it, but there's also, it's also a qualification space, but most private work is low bid. So here's this road, it's the engineer's estimate is $20 million to go build this road, and here are the plans. Okay, everybody, we're opening the bid on this date. So have it in at this time, this date, and then, You submit the bid sheet and you do week's worth of work, you know, maybe six weeks worth of work, eight weeks worth of work and Eight other people submit their bids and the low bid out of eight is 23 million dollars. Great. So that whoever that contractor is 23 million dollars, you get the job Straight up. Yep, and everybody else loses Is there with public work? Is there a law that sets the low bid thing? Yeah It's it's stipulated. Is that federal law? No, I mean for federal projects. Yes. Yeah. Again, you have state projects, your federal projects, sometimes state projects are funded federally. Yeah, it's okay. There is no It's different every every state every county every city every everywhere is different. Okay Thanks for talking about that. That's interesting to me. I don't know if I was at all helpful. Yeah, just kind of reciting very Basic information is probably all completely wrong. Well, but I think that I like when we talk about a variety of Tears of information here on the podcast Because you and I are not The experts but we do bring in a lot of really smart people to the podcast and so I think you know our Thursday episodes It's people who are like typically like right in it Have a lot of like that that high level experience and high level information to share But I also I find it interesting to have maybe a little lower conversations where people who are just getting into this Better kind of want to learn about you know what others and other moving pieces of the dirt world Well, even I live in a really unique place because I get to see both sides of it I can see the work and I get to see the how the work comes to be on the other other side of things. Yeah But a lot of people out in the field don't understand how The work originates what the bidding process actually looks like how long contractors have to carry most of the costs of a project Yeah, it's wild you're playing banker the whole time sometimes tens hundreds of millions of dollars And then you get into litigation and then there's you know, oh well the you said the soil was this But we started digging and it was actually it's not that yeah and so who's responsible for this and There are so many there are so many issues and Things to consider and hey, we have to go put our road in here, but the power company won't get their damn polls out of the way Can you call the power company? Okay power company's coming in a month you're like a month So what the hell do we do for a month and now you're sitting on your hand. It's just Non-stop issues non-stop issues non-stop coordination non-stop meetings the joys emails and documentation and Then you have to take a picture of everything, you know in case something does end up in litigation and some lady does walk out her house And say after you're all the done you cracked my damn sidewalk what the hell and then now you have to go dig through the footage of I hope we have a picture of this damn sidewalk to prove that it was cracked before we got here. Yeah That kind of stuff. That's just crazy And it's just one of the things you gotta think about Yeah, that's why you gotta have a lot of people doing a lot of different things for projects like that a lot It takes a lot of people to make a project go Well, well, thanks for talking about that the public work first private stuff interesting to me. Yeah, we got two questions for you Okay, first one's Christopher It's a very broad question We don't have to answer all the all the pieces What are the pros and cons of joining a union? I don't know this is this is one this time and worth getting into if you're in a union area go join the union That's just how to not a union area. Don't join the union Like that's really as simple as it as it is like if you're in Chicago Yeah, you're gonna go join 150 if you're in Phoenix, Arizona You're gonna be non-union like that's just it's just how it is that's how it is and if there's both Go talk to people in both make that decision for you What's best for you and then go run with it and if one hey? This isn't right. I actually want to go join union. Okay, great. Hey, the union's not for me. I'm actually gonna go non-union great I don't the the us versus them mentality only screws the industry and I am to the point now where it's like Why even talk about what is better because it isn't one versus the other we're all in the dirt world We're all together. Yes, and there's the reality that yes The unions are very strong and some areas. Yes, unions are fantastic in some areas There's other areas where unions don't exist and that's fine Everybody seems to be doing just fine. Yeah So you know, you can you can look at the benefits of union and the and the apprenticeship and the training and You're gonna have work or so on and so forth So there are benefits to being union there again, there are benefits to being non-union Sure Just weigh the pros and cons and what works for you what you need if you even have the option which a lot of people don't It's typically predetermined for you based on your area But if you have the option weigh the options talk to some people make the decision if works out great doesn't work out Going the other direction. It's all the dirt world at the end of the day. Yeah When you're talking about like Chicago for instance like you you basically just can't get a job Doing that kind of work if you're not in the union Well Chicago's a great example of just a really strong union part of the country. Mm-hmm They have 150 they have a few other unions there that are just a rock salt with with their monster unions with tens of thousands of members big training facilities and And Although I've talked to a lot of those guys there. They love it. It's fantastic It's a great value and they're really cared for they're paid very well They have they have you know this great pension and there's some really really phenomenal benefits to it So and going non-union, I mean you can try to go non-union in Chicago But it's not even worth it because the unions are so strong there. Mm-hmm It just limits kind of what you can do outside of the union. Yeah, okay Yeah, but again, I'm just I'm tired of of of this or that it's it's they want it to be binary They want it to be fighting amongst ourselves, but that's not that's missing the point that only screws the industry We're trying to develop the workforce. We all need to be on the same damn team union and on union It shouldn't matter if you move dirt you move dirt and if you're part of union great like that's fantastic And if you want to be proud about it great that's one thing union has done really well the pride is unmatched But it's just not worth getting into what's better than the other because in reality you can't make that distinction for everybody Everybody's different because we eat what's better for you isn't better for me everybody's different everybody's in a different area So it's a case by case mm-hmm That's interesting to me Okay, well, thank you. Thanks for appreciate it I got one last question this question kind of maybe laugh a little bit From Joey says has Aaron ever given any thought to holding any offices in government local municipal city state federal etc No, I wouldn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole, but I we've started If we're actually going to go develop the workforce, we're going to need to get into government So there will eventually be hires made to focus on the government side of our business here from a policy standpoint And if you're talking what's in the strategic interest of a state or federal government? Infrastructure is as strategic as it gets and No one has a No one has a grip on this workforce problem So I think what we're bringing to the marketplace is going to be of great strategic importance and interest to local governments to state governments to the federal government and We're going to start to push on that, but we need to get into a position of strength We need to have some traction before we move further in that direction So are we going to get involved in government? Absolutely. I think that's the only way we solve this problem And I think everybody is again involved in government right now because it is yeah messed up But at the same time I would are we going to run any candidates probably not yeah Is there any kind of lobbying be being done For infrastructure like I don't even really understand. Oh much. Yeah, what do you think the infrastructure bill was? You think that just magically appeared? No, but I guess I guess my oh no curiosity is That Any of the lobbying that's currently being done for Infrastructure for like things that directly affect the door world as we talk about it Who is really like to benefit In the current model of like you know who's lobbying. Can you speak to that at all? I just like wonder like with the infrastructure bill obviously like If it was truly all just infrastructure That benefits the door road, but like a lot of it is not directly infrastructure first and foremost politicians And then the lobbyists they're the ones that benefit the most frankly. Yeah, it's I I can't I can't stand that part of the government It's it's just so so frustrating And then the contractors get in the contracts and then the local and you know and then the people yeah The recipients of the infrastructure because that's what infrastructure should be for it should be for the well-being of the communities not for self-serving interest The problem is all like we could spend as much as we want an infrastructure, but we don't have the capacity to build the infrastructure So all all of this is is what's good to spend more spend more spend more spend more But that's not the problem right now you have DOTs causing billions of dollars in infrastructure spending because they're not comfortable the work is actually going to get done. - Did I have anywhere to spend the money in a way that they know it will work? - But they have the money to spend, but they're just great. If we put this out to bid, somebody's going to bid on it, but you need multiple contractors bidding on it, but the multiple contractors can't. They don't have the capacity right now. They have record high backlog, and they're slogging through it right now. So we need to think more critically from a policy standpoint on how we develop the work force because if we don't figure this out, the whole country, the whole country is screwed, the whole country, everybody, everybody, everybody. Last time I checked, all politicians like to take shit and like to have go away. That doesn't happen without the. - They like to flip those lights on when they want to. - They like to flip the lights on. They like to use the internet. They like to drive places, fly places. None of that happens without infrastructure. We're messing around right now. And there needs to be something seriously put in place from a policy standpoint to start reversing that direction. The reason why the colleges are so strong is because of the federal, federal, eight program. That was an unlimited tap that was turned on to the college higher education industry, and they've taken full advantage of it. I don't blame them. - As I should. - How long does that go on for? Trillions of dollars in debt that's just completely outstanding with no plan for it on how it's actually going to get repaid. You can never discharge it. You only kind of debt you can never get rid of, which is wild. So you just have all of this potential debt probably never going to get. At what point does that get solved? Like at what point do we actually incentivize people to go get trades, go pursue trades and go create real skills? And even just like even the scales a little bit because it's so favored in that one direction because the federal government has backed the student loan system. And that's not the whole reason. I'm way painting with a very broad brush here, but you offer a trillion dollars in money while no shit you're going to start to completely sway things in that direction. - Well, a lot of government talk on this episode of Derrick Talk. The government is the industry's biggest customer. Which I think is great. I want the government building the roads. - Yeah, should be spending a lot on infrastructure. - Yeah, I don't want to have to pay every time I have to drive out of my driveway. Nope, sorry. - Yeah, if it's all at the end of your drive, that's why I put your card to go into this road. I like that it is a public. Utilities should be public. They should be a public service. But it's also really broken and really flawed. And there's a lot of corruption. - Well, like you said, to make the dirt road a better place, that's certainly a place that we will enter into in the future. But we're focused on what we're doing right now too. - Yeah, but we don't make the dirt road a better place without getting involved in government. It's just not going to happen. - Well said. - Well, thanks Joy for that short answer. Aaron is not going to run for office. Your whole life's already on the internet anyway. The vetting process would be easy. - Yeah. - Vetting in the opposite direction. - Oh shoot, we do not want this going. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It turns out we actually know all we need and we do not want him. Big oof. - Got it. Well, I think that is a dirt talk podcast, my friend. - Okay. Everybody, thanks for listening. If you have topics, send them on over to dirttalkabiltwood.com. If you haven't checked out the bill at FLOG, search Aaronwood on YouTube. Full bore. - dirt talk podcast. - There's a new vlog podcast. - There's a new vlog. - There's a new vlog published today about, oh it's about a speaking gig. - Oh yeah. - But I just saw one. They're working on writing anthracite. Just out there. 60/20, drag line. All kinds of things. - It stays cool. It stays good. - So with that, thanks for listening. Thanks for listening everybody. See you on the next one. Stay dirty. [BLANK_AUDIO]