PTSF 37

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today, Solidarity Fridays. Today on the show, Kyle and I are going to get into some fun news. How are you doing today, Kyle? Good, good. How are you doing? I'm pretty good. I feel like it's been a while with news updates. Yeah, yeah. Got sidetracked. Happens. Yeah, totally, especially in this space. So we wanted to, before we dig in, just mention that we have, in about a little less than a month, kick off our next two cohorts of Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists, eight-week program where we work you through a ton of material and pretty much get you quite fluent. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of fun. I know. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. I know. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. 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They just got approval, I think for phase two for low dose psilocybin treatment for Parkinson's disease. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Phase two B clinical investigation, low dose psychedelics on cognitive and emotional dysfunctions in patients with Parkinson's disease. So yeah, that's really awesome to hear. I feel like we haven't heard too much. I know. I think there's been some research on maybe ayahuasca and Parkinson's. I think it was Ibogaine. Ibogaine. Yeah. So how this feels to me is it's really cool. It's kind of challenging our definition of psychedelics in some ways. So when we're in conversation with Lenny and because of where he's come from in his history, it's like, this is all kind of mental and psychic. But when there are actual physical situations going on in the body, like Parkinson's, you're getting plaques building up and other issues like Alzheimer's and whatnot. There are structural/organic disorders that can be treated that aren't depression or anxiety. There's actual physical problems that can probably get healed. If we're looking at neurogenesis and possibly healing TBI, it's kind of a similar topic. Yeah. So I guess it just challenges that Groffian definition of non-specific amplifier, though I still think that's really helpful. It's just maybe not encompassing enough since there's going to be physical stuff coming. Yeah. Yeah. Here on Parkinson's News Today, the trial will assess safety and efficacy of repeated low doses of psilocybin and LSD. And they're really cool to hear LSD involved here. And there are effects on well-being, emotional and cognitive attention, and biological markers of neuroplasticity, which is the ability of neural networks, the large-scale intertwined circuits that connect nerve cells to one another in the brain to grow and reorganize. Secondly, the goal will include effects of low doses of psychedelics on cognition, performance, measures of memory, and executive functioning, which are commonly impaired. That's awesome. Yeah. As well as emotional regulation and biological markers of well-being. I've said this on the show before, but Parkinson's, you get that really strong shake. Yeah. It's pretty embarrassing for a lot of people in a lot of ways. Allie, my girlfriend, used to actually sell these THC patches. Oh, wow. THC, CBD combo, transdermal patches way back too, people with Parkinson's, and the guys would cry. Why? Because they finally were able to hold their grandkids safely. Wow. That's amazing. And they just used a quarter of this patch. If we can treat this. This is a big deal. I know people with Parkinson's. I think I have some in my family. Perhaps that means I'm in line to get it later. Who knows? But yeah, we need these developments, and it's really just exciting to see this happening. So thank you, Silo Pharma. It's awesome. Yeah, and just cool to see other disorders outside of depression and PTSD to just see what else these could be really effective with. Right. I think the more indications we can treat, or it shows hopeful data that we can treat these things, the less likely the feds are and the international governance groups to come in and try to squash this renaissance. How many people are freaked out about Alzheimer's and Parkinson's? Yeah. I think most people are. More scary than a heart attack is dementia for most people, or even cancer. Cancer at least you know you're going out with your wits. Dementia, it's like, "Good Lord. What is that?" Oh, man. And the impact it has on the families too. Geek. No joke. Yeah. Yeah. So just thankful. Thankful. Thankful. And Therasil. This is really cool. They had a big round of approvals on being able to. Therapists, the medical team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Therapists themselves being able to train to be better therapists by using psilocybin. Therasil is this group in Canada fighting for end of life access to psilocybin for end of life anxiety, whatever that is, and really awesome. We've got to talk to one or two of those team members up there. I think I talked to the guy that kicked it off a while back and we got to meet Angela out of Vancouver, which is really cool. And she was, I think, in one of the first groups doing the work, which is really awesome. So yeah, the fact that they're going to have a legal exemption now, that's amazing. Beyond MAPS, I don't know that other groups are getting that kind of exemption from the government. Right. Yeah. It seems like Canada feels a little bit more progressive at times with some of this stuff. At times. Yeah. Now, totally. It's amazing because they don't have the same kind of baggage we've got. Right. And this is a really. It's a really important thing to consider that we're playing a game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're playing a game in the whole globe here for progress in these medicines and drugs. So if we're just playing in the US, it's like a really different thing where we're fighting against the lobbies. The drug lobbies here are insane relative to in other countries. And thankfully other leading first world developed countries, they're able to play in the same science arena we are here in the States. So States is not the only show in town. It's kind of hard for us as Americans to say. It's hard for us as Americans to see that sometimes. Yeah. There's a whole globe. We might be the third largest country by population, the highest GDP, but there's plenty of other players and plenty of other wealthy countries that can contribute here in skilled ways. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's just important for approving the use for professional training. I know MAPS allows that. It doesn't sound like from some of the updates with Compass, like they're going to allow substance or drug sessions. And so to kind of get this approval for professional training to maybe understand what the experience is like, I don't know, I think that's a big deal. Right, like there's a lot of nervousness around training, I think. Like what constitutes good training? And like not only is it a ton of education, but it's kind of a ton of time. Like, you know, the same way psychoanalysts have to go through psychoanalysis themselves, and therapists have to do therapy themselves. Why is it not the case that psychedelic people need to do the same? You know, I remember talking to Mike Margulies at Horizons last year. He was, this is like his hot issue in 2019 Horizons. And I'm like, you know, cool, like let's work on that. How can you make a compelling argument that convinces regulators? Like, because they're not insiders like us that kind of understand. They understand the why, so yeah, what are those arguments? And I didn't see them necessarily making it. Like the ones against, like, I'm a little stuck on making it mandatory. Because what about people who can't safely do it? Right, yeah. Because there's people who will get sick, that will get, you know, hurt, maybe have to get hospitalized. You know, maybe it's not psilocybin. Maybe it's a bunch of ketamine and whole trip or breath work. You know, maybe it's different drugs or different methods, you know? Like, I know. I know that I feel really qualified and most of my time in was whole trip or breath work. You know, I don't, I don't know how other people feel about that, but. And I guess it's kind of like what does a person embody some of those like core competencies and skill sets and what are those and how could you maybe strengthen that? Yeah, because I think you're right. There are people that won't be able to, you know, maybe take a substance and go through that experiential part, but could also just be really great space holders, right? And maybe. Maybe they don't understand the terrain, but, you know, why exclude them if they could be really great space holders? And I don't know, on the other side, you know, I've definitely argued, like, I think it's important to know the terrain if you're going to be kind of doing this full time and, you know, you want to make a career out of it, like really understand the nuances of transpersonal domains and, you know, some of the stuff that could potentially come up there and knowing that you feel confident enough to maybe help. Somebody while they're experiencing something like that. Right. Yeah. So absolutely. And then like contrasting that with something like American Disabilities Act, where a lot of groups had to modify the structure of their, you know, spaces and like provide different types of materials, like, you know, Braille and, you know, audio when they, when they're blind, you know, that kind of stuff. So like, or like text, like we're trying our best to offer as much text as we can, because we can't necessarily. I mean, we can't really afford to transcribe everything and, you know, that excludes deaf people. Yeah. So like, what do we do? How do we try to be as inclusive as possible and, you know, if a therapist might be an amazing therapist, but they've got a strong disability, should we on purpose disclude them? Right. Or should we figure out how to include them? I think being inclusive has an advantage, but you know, how do we, how do we balance that? You know, all I'm saying is there's an open question here. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's what I'm really thinking of. So I'm glad that you, you brought that up here. Yeah. That's what I mean. Like the safety, like that when it's not safe for them because their blood pressure's all screwy or whatever, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of indications, like you're on bipolar meds. Right. But you're a great therapist. You know, like what, what do you do? Right. So yeah. Inclusivity. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's not just about race and gender. There's a lot of other things. There's a lot, you know, super autistic people like, you know, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably not a fair way to say it, but people that are, you know. On the spectrum. Quite disabled and on the spectrum. Like what, where do they fit in? Yeah. Do they? And this idea of neurotypical is like become really embedded in me because I'm like, who the fuck is neurotypical? Like there's, it's kind of like a tip, like a, like a myth almost. Like I get the point and we should use it, but it's like, hmm, there's something going on there. Cause. Psychies are quite diverse, neurologies are quite diverse, but yeah, like just, you know, food for thought. Yeah. So yeah, just really great. And what's going to be cool about this TheraCell thing is that we're going to have now a whole bunch of therapists with this experience and we can maybe like compare their results to American results or like European results, English results. So like, I think that's going to be really cool and maybe the data is that these therapists are better. They're going to be more focused on performance than elsewhere. You know, it's not about, it's not always about the drug. The drug is a big part of it. The plant is a big part of it, but you know, the skills required and, and you know how good you are in the room definitely plays a part. Yeah. I agree. I think that's a huge part of it. Yeah. Totally. Man. I recorded with Dina Justice again last night about her own, like we finally got into her personal healing story. Mm-hmm. Like blockbuster episode, by the way. Like she talks about her underground, like you know, her sitter that's worked with her and all sorts of interesting stuff and like just hearing it from like that kind of transformation level is going to be really interesting, especially because she's kind of like an insider. Mm. Mm-hmm. Cool. Yeah. So probably not going to see that until February, but it's in the books. Recorded it. We do have a nice healthy backlog, which is nice. Oh my goodness. I need this stuff. I need this stuff recording. So next up is this article about going off the rails. This is a pretty interesting article. I think, was it Roland Griffiths, Kyle, and a few others kind of co-wrote this paper. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So the concern is there's so much happening and so little like centralized control and people doing their own thing, like you and I have heard about some really kooky shit that I don't know how to feel about it. Right. And it's like kind of troubling. And I'm sure these guys do too. These people over at Hopkins or wherever else are like, "I don't know." So I only really read the conclusion there and I was a little, their bias because of who they are is quite medical and I get it. I think that's what they're trying to really argue here is that, could psychedelics, the way that it's being promoted, flaunted at times about being advertised. Sometimes as a panacea or like a cure, they have curative properties and kind of getting ahead of the science could potentially have an impact on the science and kind of come to a halt again and interesting. This new period of psychedelic research ongoing since at least 2006 has lasted for about the same length of time as psychedelic research in the '50s and '60s before it ground to a halt. I thought that was a really interesting sentence. I didn't even really think about that. But yeah, so I think it's really cautioning how people are moving forward and maybe not getting ahead of the science at times and just, it could maybe, I think it is kind of at this fork in the road where science is going one way and now we're having decriminalization initiatives and the spiritual and religious use cases or just the whole microdosing or maybe we want to use the word recreational. And how could that like, you know, start raising more awareness in the political arena that could be like, "Hey, we need to stop this all over again." Or you know, what type of dangers does it possibly raise when people are reading it from this clinical perspective and really trying to find a clinical use out of it and taking it into their own hands and also maybe not getting that, right? Actually having some harmful effect there, harmful outcome. Talking to a lot of people I've heard at times saying, "Hey, I read Paulan's book and I decided to do this on my own or I went to an underground person and you know, either this abuse happened or I had a really horrible experience and I don't really know how to make sense of it now. And I thought it was going to be this really healing thing because that's what I keep reading about." So yeah, I mean, it is something to consider, right? I'll read a little bit here. Right. Because like really. What was it? Art. I forget the guy's name exactly. Linkletter? Art? Letter or something? Like his daughter. He was a big TV personality. His daughter allegedly fell out of a window or jumped out of a window on LSD. I think that's kind of debated if she was or was not on LSD. And that was the main story that got a ton of publicity against psychedelics. And you know, yeah, like thankfully now we've got. Well over, what is it, 70 something years of experience with LSD as a species. And I think we've gotten a lot better at it overall. Like people still make mistakes for sure. But I think it's a lot less than it was in the '60s and '50s. Yeah. We've got movies, we've got books, we've got podcasts and I think all of that together helps reduce the harm and the scary profile of these things. I don't know if I've ever told you this, Kyle, but I've been at two parties. No LSD as far as I know, where people fell off a roof and died. alcohol related or totally. Yeah. It happens. Right. A lot of people do a lot of dumb stuff on alcohol. Right. And like, you know, how, you know, it's, it's not politicized because it's just, you know, alcohol has been with us for so long. Um, hard alcohol, you know, distilled alcohol, kind of a lot more recent. I think I was like 1400s roughly, maybe even a little earlier that that kind of came to Europe. Um, but yeah, like, and that really changed the game with alcohol before it was like maximum 14%. And this stuff was, you know, kind of expensive still, probably, you know, it's not cheap or as, you know, you just put a bunch of shit in a pot and like distill it and you've got hardcore alcohol. Yeah. Um, so yeah, like harms and risks and all this stuff, like, you know, the longer we can go without having like really nasty stories pop up, the better, I think. And, you know, if we can help somebody, we probably should for the movement. Yeah. Like in terms of harm reduction and, you know, consulting therapy, whatnot, like the better outcomes there are, those can hopefully offset negative outcomes that are going to show up. Yeah. Like this is a really, really hard talk track. Cause there are, there is going to be a lot of psychedelic fallout. There has been psychedelic fallout. People have been hurt more than they have been helped as individuals. Yeah. You know, like how bad is HPPD? Like one go at LSD and you've got, you know, your HPPD is going nuts and that's a pretty rare thing, but it's still out there. Yeah. I mean, I think this is the reason why I got interested in this project to begin with. And my interest in psychedelics was my early fallout that really costs, I think sometimes a to some degree and a lot of confusion. And I think we need to be having some of these honest conversations, even if it goes against like, say, you know, our, our mission here at times of wanting to help get these, you know, substances legalized, decriminalized, whatever that track is, and to really kind of talk about the promise of it. And, you know, sometimes maybe we do get idealistic and say, you know, this is going to revolutionize and change the world, but I also have to think back to some of my past experiences and be like, do I want to go through that again? I don't think so. I mean, you know, it pushed me out on the other side and I think made me a stronger person to some degree, but, um, kind of going through what, what I went through for like in those early years. I mean, that was right. It makes you a lot more cautious. Yeah. Um, yeah. So like the caution is there, the cautions real in the, like the harm is real and, you know, we can pretend it doesn't exist, but that doesn't help. Right. Yeah. Like we can pretend climate change doesn't exist, but it's still a pretty big thing that we should be considering. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare anybody off. It's just like, let's understand that there are risks, like the same thing, like you're doing a saline drip on somebody to help them hydrate. There is a risk from the needle. It's an, it's not zero and you know, it's pretty low. It's zero. And like, uh, like Christina Groff, I think she died from like a really minor surgery. Oh, really? I did not know that. I think it was like a blood clot or something and a really minor surgery. Yeah. It's really unfortunate. Right. Cause yeah. Huge influence for us. Yeah. Apparently she does not have a wiki page, which is super weird. If somebody has to draft one up. Yeah. Like her books are great. Like she was the reason I believe that music was brought in to the degree it was to holotropic breathwork. And she had a really strong musical background and you know, thus holotropic breathwork today. Um, like Stan brought in a lot of the other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just kind of coming back to this article, it's just really pneumonia. Sorry. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. But yeah, just really kind of, um, taking into consideration, a lot of the risks where we're at and to, you know, I think this article is really just like cautioning a fast forward movement, which, you know, we've been seeing definitely in the past years. Right. You know, this is something that you and I and Lenny have been getting into to some degree, like why does psychiatry and the medical model have to have so much say over it? And can we say that, you know, religious and spiritual use, um, is important and just as valid. So I don't know, ethical things to consider too, right? Yeah. Like is Burning Man valid? Is Spongle valid? Like are raves okay? Is it okay for a couple to choose one to do MDMA together at home? You know, what, what is okay? What is not okay? And, you know, should people be going to prison? Should we work to release everybody from prison? Who's a, you know, as political prisoners, like probably it's my take, but you know, we're not there yet as a culture. Yeah. Like, is it okay that a lot of these companies are valued at? Not a lot of them. I think there's one that's over a billion and one that's not close behind a billion. Is there like market cap? And like, that's, it's pretty crazy. And there's still people in jail for selling, you know, a couple of hits of LSD. Yeah. Um, and there's people that are like, I think have near life sentences in some States for cannabis. Like there's this, uh, case in Wyoming, Riley caps just commented on this and like the degree to which you can get beat up for having like a pound of cannabis in Wyoming is insane relative to like it barely being a situation here in Colorado. Right. Um, that's terrifying, really terrifying, but Colorado, I believe still has prisoners for cannabis convictions and they haven't released them at all. Wow. I think they released some, but it's like, you know, it's not full on. Like I, I, I think even if somebody was selling 20 pounds a month, they need to be let go. Assuming they didn't do anything violent. Yeah. Like I, yes, they broke the law, but look at all these people making a killing and all the jobs that are in this space. And like those people could probably be great contributors to the cannabis world if they were released from prison and given some sort of, I don't, I don't know what the move is. Like, I remember like, uh, someone told me about California and certain counties in Los Angeles. Like there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a number of, um, folks that got released from prison who had, you know, simple drug possession charges and they were given, some of them were given cannabis dispensary licenses as like, you know, part of their reparations for that. I think that's a big deal. I think it's really helpful. It's huge. Um, you know, and the argument becomes like, why should a huge corporation get them? But all these other people who are paying to incarcerate and like doing harm to their families through multiple generations, like, shouldn't they get something? Yeah. That's the weird thing about, um, the whole legalization and business aspect of when plants are criminalized or drugs are criminalized and it's okay for, you know, certain entities to sell it versus like, you know, and why, why haven't, you know, we released some of those, um, you know, past offenders as, you know, cannabis is becoming legalized in a lot of ways. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and. It's like, no, not at all. Yeah. And I think like if this is all the stuff. So, uh, disclosure, Kyle and I are working on a project around ethics right now with Lenny and it's really interesting one. And we've had a lot of education on what our ethics and, um, yeah, there's, it's going to be an interesting project. You'll hear more about it later, but yeah, this is a lot of the stuff we've been chatting about. Yeah. And this paper, I think like touches on some of the stuff that we have been exploring, right? Like the medicalization and, you know, like here they're talking more kind of around like rule-based ethics versus like, you know, virtue-based ethics and really trying to put some rules around this within psychiatry and medicine versus say, you know, do these have a spiritual and religious use? Um, and does that lead to the good, the community or society? And is it good for the individual as well? And why are these things illegal to begin with? Right. And should they even be considered drugs? And the only, you know, and I think one of Lenny's arguments, you know, the only reason why they're kind of going through this whole process is because they became drugs in the first place. Right. So you need to kind of go through this whole process to legalize them. But like, if the plant just stayed, the plant was never legalized or made illegal, then, you know, would you have to kind of argue it's, it's point and go through this whole process? Maybe, you know, I mean, these new entities pop up like the FDA and when people are using stuff, maybe they catch wind and, and want some, you know, science behind it, but. Yeah. And how about that argument? Like what even are drugs? Right. Like when did that concept become a thing? Like, I love that book drugged by Richard Miller. Um, I think I've gone through it three times now because he like talks about the origins of it and comes out like people were making industrial products and they were like, oh, these chemicals are pretty weird. I wonder if there's other applications like paints and dyes and I think like lubricants and all sorts of stuff like around industrial culture. And then all this other stuff came out as a, as a result, like the Germans had tons of these companies and they, they were kind of leading it for a while. And, uh, yeah, that's how we got a ton of these drugs. It's, um, like the history of drugs is super interesting. Hmm. Yeah. So I recommend that book to folks. Definitely check that one out. Yeah. Uh, what else do we want to chat about Kyle? There was another interesting article here about DeTora at the Pinwheel Cave in California. Yeah. The California article is pretty interesting. What was your read on that? Just that they, you know, found evidence that DeTora was being used. Um, so kind of, um, goes back on, on rock art. So just again, kind of like pointing towards, you know, maybe some sort of historical use of DeTora within, um, you know, kind of these, uh, maybe indigenous or native folks that were in that area, trying to find the date that, uh, they said it goes back to. It was pretty old, but it wasn't like that old. I think it was 2000 years old, maybe. And, you know, it's interesting, right? Like we've, we know that people have relationships to plants and, uh, you're going to find plants in your area and you're going to, you know, useful or not useful. And like over time, we're going to get that. And I think it's pretty natural to assume that people are going to modify their consciousness with plants and other things too. Like the, some of the rituals out there, mind-bogglingly brutal. Yeah. And DeTora is a pretty, pretty intense plant medicine too. Have you done anything with it? No, no, not at all. I've talked to some people that have, and they, they seem to like it. It seems like you got to commit a few days. Which, you know, it's kind of tough to say like, oh, try this thing. It only takes three days where it's like DMT. It's like, you got 15 minutes. And it's like, how do you, like the cell is harder on these other kind of less popular drugs and plants. Right. I had somebody I knew that I went to school with. They, they mentioned that they ate a bunch of seeds when they were younger and they ended up in the hospital. I think thinking like insects were crawling all over them and they said it was just super. Super intense. Yeah, I bet. Sounds rough. Yeah. And I, I think I just read too that Brian Murarescu's book that kind of argues for this ancient drugs theory. It just got awarded like audio book of the year. Oh, wow. Yeah. So really excited about that. Like I'm, you know, he is an attorney. He made, he, I think he did really well in the legal world and finance world. And what I'm noticing is that he's been doing really well in the legal world and finance world. And I think he's And I've been talking to a number of attorneys, like they're really interested in this drug policy game now, like because, you know, regular folks have been able to do stuff like Denver, like Portland, like Seattle, Oregon, like relatively little money spent on these things. And they were able to make it work. What happens when attorneys get together and like work on the project together? Because there are attorneys out there that want this stuff to be more available, less criminalized. Right. Interesting to note is that they're still battling with the same thing that kind of we do, which is like, how do we phase this thing? How do we do, what do we do first? What do we save for last? It's like, I think a lot of our project is like rescheduled. It's like a really long game. Yeah, there's so many different angles to take with this. And I think that's what makes this whole field kind of really interesting and exciting and also really confusing at times, right? It's like, you know, do we take this kind of like slower route through medicalization and, you know, get strong evidence that, you know, these are, you know, safe and effective medicines for certain disorders? On the flip side, you know, we get into the cognitive liberty. Where, you know, that could potentially have a little bit more fallout for people, you know, getting themselves in a little bit more harm or maybe not thinking about sentence setting and thinking about like, you know, drug testing, this and that. And that's where you start to, you know, experience some of those harms and what type of, what type of impact does that have on, you know, community and society at large? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, these are, these are really big questions. And, you know, as things develop. You know, I think we're all trying to figure it out. I mean, I'm just even surprised with some of the decriminalization, how quick that moved. And again, you know, decriminalization doesn't mean legalization, but, you know, I think it also gives a little bit of like okayness to maybe feel a little bit protected in your choices. Being like, okay, I know I'm not going to get a felony possession if it's the lowest priority. And, you know, what type of things come out of that? What type of community support comes out of that? What type of systems? What type of systems start to be developed? Like, I'm sure there's really interesting things going on in like Oakland, right? Like, I remember seeing stuff about like, you know, how do we create these like little co-ops or how do we, you know, provide medicine to the community? What type of like services can they offer? I don't know. Yeah, exactly. It's like rewind the tapes four and a half years, right? When we started this thing, like none of this was really on our map. On our radar. I think like largely we wanted a, you know, an easier drug policy, but we never really expected what played out, played out like, you know, Kevin Matthews with Denver. Like that's unbelievable project. Like really amazing, really exciting to know that he did it and did it with not much money, largely grassroots support. And that's a huge really changed the game. Like that was the thing that opened the floodgates, in my opinion, for what happened in Oakland, Santa Cruz. It's not really a big deal to say that it's like, you know, an obvious statement, but like, how, how could we have ever predicted that? I mean, New Jersey here, they tried to sneak in dropping a felony charge of psilocybin down to a misdemeanor charge. They have a decriminalization bill that was going for cannabis. I think, I forget what it was up to like 16 ounces or something like that. And last minute they snuck in this statement. They snuck in a statement about dropping the possession of an ounce of psilocybin mushrooms down to a misdemeanor, you know, and it kind of had all this stalling at the house and whatnot. And I think right now they're looking at maybe breaking the two bills up because they're like, you know, where the hell did that come from? You know, was it a strategic move to stall the decriminalization bill or is there hope somebody in there was like, hey, look at what's happening across the country. Here's something. We're going to have to do something about this. on Facebook. and uh you know like is that mania is that something else that's going on like it's it's a really creepy thing and we don't have yet the infrastructure required yeah to say like all right fucking absolutely game on for psychiatric use you know do can we say the same thing about burning man maybe maybe not like i don't know at fish shows i see very little fallout there's a lot of lsd going down and there's very little fallout yeah why do you think that is like it's such an up beautiful thing it's like amplifier mental process right or psychic process like you're so up already that you're going to be up even more and you've got this amazing cultural container that accepts it mm-hmm like if you're totally lost in like pretty much naked someone's probably going to help you out and you probably don't have to go to prison you know and you got a justin timberlake concert and you do the same thing you're probably going to jail right right like what is that like it's just a different culture that's been doing this since the 90s early 90s and you know that's kind of a big deal same thing with the dead world like i'm sure there is fallout right i mean i've heard there absolutely is fallout from drug use absolutely if you want to generalize it to drug use in general totally like i'm sure there's fallout from lsd use there's like bad relationship juju going on sometimes like yeah like i've seen some things that weren't great but it's like usually they worked out and in my opinion usually it was in the right direction for them right usually but you know there's some people that's like this is the best thing in the world like i don't want to do anything else so like ambition goes out the window and like you know relationships kind of fall apart and yeah it's a little strange but yeah i'm sure there's fallout from lsd use there's like strange yeah so yeah i just uh education and caution i think is the point here moving forward and to be really honest with yourself too especially if you're and you're in a place that educating folks about psychedelics you know how can you listen to other people's stories and you know maybe hear that maybe they're not always you know light and magic that people do experience a lot of you know fallout from it at times and things can can get worse i mean i've definitely chatted with a lot of people you know seeking help in that and is that fallout going to increase with you know bigger people coming in you know maybe promoting different products and if that market does start to come to fruition you know will there be more fallout in the general public without like parameters set in place so i'd love to see doctors that you can consult before going to a festival or before going to the amazon that would be amazing and like places that you can go to when you're done well yeah we have psychedelic.support we've got the maps integration list like we've got some services but you know it's not at scale enough yet to accommodate the demand but you know people love getting high people have always loved getting high and we need to get ready for that because we you know we can't keep lying to ourselves people don't like getting high and we shouldn't prep for it you know no we should prep for it like people should keep getting educated and keep moving forward yeah cool so uh i think that's about it everybody again check out psychedeliceducationcenter.com for our upcoming eight week training navigating psychedelics for clinicians and therapists i promise you'll love it 40 what is it 45 day money back guarantee if you don't like it yeah so um yeah check it out like you get immediate if you sign up soon you get access to all of our material before we even kick off in january so you can get really ahead of everybody and even have a more educational time the more you put in the more you get out and uh yeah you can read all the testimonials up there check it out psychedeliceducationcenter.com and uh yeah i think we're good all right signing off thanks everybody thanks take care everybody see you next time until next time bye you Thank you. Thank you.