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There's been wave after wave of bad news about the ocean, warming temperatures over fishing, acidification, coral bleaching, the list goes on. But in the last few years, there's also been some big wins for the big blue and a kind of narrative shift in which the ocean itself has almost become its own larger-than-life character in conservation conversations. So how should we think about the future of the seas and how do the stories we tell about the ocean shape how we think about it? Dr. Helen Scales is a marine biologist and author of What the Wild Sea Can Be, The Future of the World's Ocean, which is Science Friday's Book Club Pick of the Month. Helen, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to join you guys. Thanks. We're so excited to have you. Let me start with this one. Helen, the oceans. How cooked are they? Oh, on a scale of raw to done, well, ate a flambé. It's a good question. Yeah. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, to Brulee. You know, they're not there yet. I think that's a really important message to get across. Like, we're not done. I was reading just today a piece in the Australian press talking about, "Oh, the great barrier reef is not dead yet." You know, we kind of never said that it's dying in that sort of, you know, all or nothing way. And what we're talking about is really big changes that are happening across the ocean, but it's not like, and we're done, you know, and that's it. We're still on this, in this kind of mid-ground, I would say, of understanding what's going on and seeing those effects play out. On the subject of understanding where we are, I mean, I think we've, you know, on this show, we've talked about some of the issues a lot, climate change, plastic pollution, acidification, but is there anything else I need to add to my worry list? Well, I'd hate to, you know, add that to your anxiety, because I know that is also, you know, such a big part of how we deal with the news these days is like, oh, great, another thing to worry about. But, yeah, I mean, I really see that kind of the ocean threats do come in those main categories, which I think you've touched on, so over-affishing pollution and climate change. You know, and there are kind of nuances within that, so we could talk about deep-sea mining, for instance, which isn't happening yet, but it's like a big threat that's coming up. So I say, yeah, that is something to pay attention to, because also we have a chance to push back on that. And that would bring pollution, it would bring habitat destruction, it would bring species extinction, it would really kind of cover many of those bigger issues. If we did indeed begin opening up, basically one of the last great wildernesses on our planet to industrial extraction and exploitation. So yeah, I worry about that, I definitely worry that deep-sea mining could go ahead. And I think there's always, yeah, there's always new things within those bigger pictures, but I would say, you know, on the whole, those are the ways in which humans are affecting the seas in a really profound way. It's what we're taking out, and it's what we're putting back in. And yeah, new things might come along, but essentially it's that same story of this kind of assumption that the ocean is so big, we can't break it, and it's also so big that we can't fix it. And neither of those things are true. I mean, is it resilient as a system, or does it break or bend in the same way as ecosystems on land, or is it a sort of a different beast? It is a bit of a different beast. I think you have hit on something, there are different things going on in the ocean. There are different processes whereby recolonisation and recovery can take place. Just for instance, look at the way that sea creatures reproduce themselves. You know, you shore plants scatter their seeds to the wind, and that's great, but animals on land don't tend to do that so much. Whereas it's really normal in the ocean, for essentially most things to have eggs and larvae, which can, you know, they get sent out into the ocean, and just, you know, they can move to a greater or lesser distance away from the parents. You know, and that I think gives us that ability to say, well, look, if we protect this piece of ocean, this other bit further away will benefit from that in a really, you know, in a really clear way, and we're seeing that happen. So I think there is a different way of thinking about how the ocean is protected, how it works, how it can help itself to recover, because of that fluidity. I think it's kind of obvious the ocean is fluid, but it really does, it really does affect how things live, how they reproduce, and how ecosystems can kind of keep going. If someone somewhere out there is doing okay, can you give me an example of a comeback that gives you hope? Oh, for sure. I mean, my mind, when people ask me, you know, where does the hope come from, it often, I often drift to some of the really big iconic species in the ocean that are amazingly doing better. Things like the Great Wales, you know, they were an industrial resource, only a few decades ago, on the whole, they were considered, you know, to be something to use. They were just, yeah, they were just big bags of oil basically swimming around the ocean that could be used. An industrial wailing was, was, was huge, middle of the 20th century, it was enormous, but they shifted. I think the thing, the story of the Wales that gives me hope on, on two grounds, really, on two, for two reasons. One is that people, humanity in a very general sense, changed their minds about Wales. And it was thanks to the campaigns, the Save the Whale campaigns, the conservationists who, who really hit this home. This message that Wales are incredible, beautiful, complex animals that sing to each other and raise their babies, and we can really relate to them as, as animals and see them as treasured wildlife and not just as something to use. You know, and that campaign really worked. And that's storytelling. Right? Right. That's just really good storytelling. Yeah. Exactly. You know, absolutely. And it worked, and that's why I hold that quite close to my heart, to be like, remind myself that we can change our minds about, we, I mean that in a very, very general sense, but humans can change their minds about things. And then the other side of the story that also brings me hope with the Wales is that, yeah, they are recovering now. It's taken a long time, because these are really big, the biggest animals that exist. They take decades to reach maturity and to have their babies, and they only have one or maybe two at a time, or mostly one at a time, I think. But scientists are seeing them coming back now, they're hearing them coming back. Their songs are returning to the ocean. So I just, you know, if we can bring the Wales back, I think we can do the same with so many other species. And we are. You know, I could talk about Bluffin tuna, I could talk about, mangroves re-growing. So these stories turn around, and that's what gives me hope, yeah. You know, I want to share this with you, we asked our listeners to call in with stories about the ocean. And as long as we're talking about Wales, so many listeners had these profound whale encounters. And I want to play one of them. This is from Todd and Winstead, Connecticut, who was on a boat, and the captain saw a pod of whales nearby, and Todd will pick it up from here. I grabbed a mask and jumped in. And that's when I had a fully grown, right whale pass, maybe 20 feet below me, swimming upside down, white belly facing me. Below the whale was blackness, void. It was absolutely unforgettable. Wow. Wow. Why do you think these moments are so moving to us? Oh gosh, and I've had so many. Like my mind, initially I was going to say, well, because whales are so big, and that is part of it, I think they're so big, you know, like it's true, it's like it's hard to believe. Yeah. I think there's something about the human mind and what we can wrap our minds about in terms of scale and size, like we can't really imagine the tiny small, very easily and also the really big. And I think whales are obviously on that, that just kind of huge beast side of things. But then I've had plenty of equally transformational encounters with really small things too. So I don't think it's just size. I don't know, maybe it's that feeling of I am here and you are here. That is the animal, the whale. In this one moment, and we've come together and it's such a fleeting, unlikely encounter, but yeah, here we are. And we're sharing this moment. And to have that moment in the ocean with a creature that lives in such a different environment that's so different to us, everything, land, walking humans is so, it just goes really deep to have that feeling of recognition, I love it. You know, and it's not only just our connection with animals, right? Like the way that we're thinking about the ocean as a whole is different. Tell us about the Scottish Association for Marine Science. and what they just did. So this is really incredible. It's just recently the announcement came out that this this this long-standing institution in Scotland that's been around for more than a century. It's a research institution. It's got a really important educational role. They do huge amounts of research into the ocean. And the people in charge basically decided to appoint the ocean as one of their trustees. So now every time any decision is made somebody in the room is is basically going to take the voice of the ocean and put forward the view that the ocean would have about these decisions that are being made and it's already from what I've heard it's already really transforming conversations you know and people are hearing discussions even just over you over coffee of like well what would the ocean think and you know what would they say about what we're thinking of doing. And I think it could really lead the way to more you know organizations, to more institutions, more commercial bodies as well thinking okay maybe we could do something similar. So these come back so pointing the oceans of voice do you feel like the tides turning like they're sort of an acceleration of ocean conservation initiatives happening now? Absolutely yeah I really do actually I mean I just have to look across my own lifespan of a few decades and and see how different I as an individual feel now to when I was a kid at school who I really felt like I was the only one. And as I've carried on being a marine biologist and writing and thinking about the ocean I do really feel like there's more and more people coming into this into this world and really identifying with this kind of core feeling of being a human that belongs to an ocean planet like this you know we are ocean people we all belong it's a part of our lives even if you live nowhere near the ocean you know the ocean is there making our planet livable. And I do think there's more people more individuals more organizations there's just there is a growing movement it's still I think we're still on a path towards where we need to be in terms of things that getting the ocean recognized within discussions on the climate you know but that is happening and I think it's thanks to this yeah this growing club of people who are realizing just how amazing the ocean is how important it is and how relevant it is to the health of our entire planet I want to dip into some cool recent ocean discoveries after the break so don't swim away WNYC Studios is supported by Mutual of Omaha Peter the Grizzly Bear eats way more vegetation than most people realize. Ray this is not the right time. Flow you're right time to go I'll tell you what's really interesting Peter the Grizzly Bear was once on the verge of extinction but not anymore now that is interesting and they're not the only species out there to make a comeback. I'm wildlife expert Peter Gross and I'm Dr. Ray Wynne Grant from Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom this is back from the brink stories of species pulled back from the edge subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome I'm Rachel your banker in Dallas I'm proud to wear the green of Huntington Bank a bank that has been building communities for 160 years one relationship at a time come see us and let's get more from money Huntington Bank. With Cricket Wireless you can count on reliable nationwide 5G because Cricket Wireless is on the AT&T network which means you can start listening to that new album that just dropped at home while running errands and at the gym without any hiccups buying plans with unlimited data for every lifestyle and price point switch to Cricket today. Looking for the best of Verbo? 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You know one thing that amazes me is that we're still making big discoveries in the ocean I just saw news about dark oxygen please tell me about it oh my gosh this is so weird it's like if I had read this in a sci-fi book I'd be like oh sure okay that's uh-huh fine but you know it's it's not it's real so what they are finding is this is down in the deep sea and it's very relevant to these discussions about deep sea mining what a lot of the mining companies are after are these rocks sitting around on the seabed on the abyssal plains they look kind of like lumps of coal if you've ever seen such an outdated thing as a lump of black coal but they they formed over millions of years from chemicals in the water they begin maybe is it like a shark tooth millions of years ago dropped to the seabed and it creeps like a gumball like one of those sweets in layers and it takes out millions of years for these things to form and they're full of metals and that's why the mining companies are interested in them and some of those you know critical metals that we're talking about so much right now but what these scientists just found out just within the last year or so is that these things are not inert they're not just sitting there on the seabed they actually seem to be acting like little batteries creating producing oxygen and putting it into the water and this is a crazy discovery it's a huge deal because up until that point it was always like the big assumption was oxygen comes from plants right it comes from photosynthesis yes and that's the only way you know nature makes oxygen all the oxygen we breathe right and yet here we are well actually maybe that's not the case life we think may well have started in the depotion there's various ideas of where that could have happened but if there's oxygen production in these abyssal plains maybe that played a part in it we just don't know so at this point it just feels even more important to me that we look after this part of the planet that we we are only just beginning to understand and such big things are coming out of these these the scientific research that is definitely not the time to be going in there and scraping it all up and taking it away and you know removing it basically permanently these things are not going to grow back these nodules you know not in just going to take millions of years so we have to be really careful about what goes on down there but yeah I crazy big discoveries about life on earth are still being made and they're being made in the ocean yes well speaking of discoveries I want to play you another call here's Becky from Boston I got to see a deep sea turtle he looked right at me he was just a few feet away and then he slowly raises head up above the water the whole time keeping this eye contact with me with these amazing deep enduring eyes and I knew for a fact that I was a deep sea turtle in my best life and I know that sounds crazy but my own life is very hectic and modern and technical and ever since I saw that deep sea turtle I have this place to go I can go back and remember what it was like seeing his unbelievable green and blue body in the water and that eye contact is if he understood exactly who I was oh man I can totally identify with that again the eye contact thing I'm feeling that they were looking at you I love the idea of believing that you're a turtle in a past life I couldn't tell you what I think I was in a past life I could be all sorts of things but but carrying that moment with you I could absolutely identify with that I do that I have a mandatory encounter that I go to when I'm feeling when I'm feeling depressed and sad basically because I was on a dive I was on a dive in Palau a few years ago and I and I had such an incredible like it was such a beautiful place to be the corals the fish were big and old and it was just it felt like how the ocean to me should be just full of life but I had to I had to go home I didn't live there I don't live there so this was a visit and I was kind of sad to leave and I was honestly just so kind of grumpy I was grumpy I'm not gonna lie I was grumpy about being on this final dive in Palau and I literally sat on the sand and I think I cried I actually cried salty tears into my dive mask I was so grumpy and then I looked across and there was this maturday um within what feels to me like it was an arms reach away looking at me I think it was looking at me I don't know if you were sad but it's definitely stopped me feeling sad um but those moments you hold on to them tightly right I mean these feel like very small moments but do you do you feel like they have deeper significance or fit with this story that we're trying you know this conversation we're having today about the future of the oceans I think so I mean I feel like it is a huge privilege to be able to go to the ocean and spend time looking and being there yourself and not everyone's going to get to do that um but if you can then obviously you know it does create this bond I think to the the ocean that never really goes away that doesn't fade um maybe those connections maybe they reach further and I think they do they reach out from that moment you had with that turtle you know with that whale and it kind of ripples out from you you know we talked about how institutions are beginning to bring the ocean as a as an idea into their boardrooms and their discussions and decision making and I guess we can all be those voices too right we can you know tell our family and friends about these times we had in and hopefully they can you know understand where that came from and perhaps feel themselves a little bit more connected. Dr Helen Scales is a marine biologist and author of several books including what the Wild Sea can be the future of the world's ocean which is science varieties book club [BLANK_AUDIO] of the month. To read along with us head to ScienceFriday.com/bookclub. This episode was produced by Russia Aready and to keep our little podcast afloat, please consider leaving us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice, but actually only if you love the show. Thank you for listening, I'm Flora Lichtman.