Pronouns & Preschool

[MUSIC PLAYING] My daughter, Billy, went to what I would consider a pretty regular daycare, politically speaking. It's a business, so it's not affiliated with a university or a college, and the teachers and staff use gendered language like big boy or big girl when talking to the kids. It is a great daycare center, just not a particularly progressive one. So when, at just barely four, Billy corrected her teacher and explained that she is a girl, things could have gone in many directions. I went in one afternoon to pick up Billy, and one of the teachers asked if we could chat for a minute. Now, I always assume that I'm in trouble, so immediately I replied, "Uh-oh." And she said, "Don't worry, it's nothing bad." I wish I could remember verbatim how our conversation went, but unfortunately my memory doesn't work that way. What I do remember from this interaction is that Billy's teacher was sharing that Billy had told her that she was a girl, and so her teacher was checking with me to see if this was news and how Trevor and I wanted to proceed. I also remember that I didn't feel any judgment from her whatsoever. We were both a bit unsure about how to talk about Billy's gender because the experience was new to both of us, but we agreed that we would figure out how to proceed together. A little while later, the daycare staff had a meeting to make sure everyone was on the same page about Billy's gender. The same teacher checked in with me regularly throughout the daycare's adjustment, and the news was always reassuring. The owners, for example, in acknowledging that they hadn't dealt with this before, also recognized that because, you know, some children and families are more equipped with language to navigate the complexities of gender, this would probably come up again. And they were, and are, committed to doing what's best for the kids in their care. We shared some books with them, and they also looked into best practices on their own. To my knowledge, Billy has no idea that there was ever even a discussion about her pronouns. She got to keep being her incredible, exuberant little kid self. She loved going to daycare, and even though she doesn't remember most of the years she spent there, the memories she does share with us are very, very happy. Thanks for letting me share that with you. I'm Marcel Cosman, and you are listening to Gender Playground. Hi everybody, welcome. You are listening to a brand new podcast dedicated to the joys of gender-affirming care for kids. Please say hello to my incredible co-host, longtime friend and absolute gem of a human, Rami Marks. Hi Rami. Hi Marcel. If you're joining us today, we assume you want to do right by the kids in your life, even and especially when the world makes it tricky. So today, Marcel, we're going to talk about navigating the world with a trans, non-binary, genderqueer, or gender expansive child. And Marcel, as you yourself have expressed in each of our previous episodes, it sounds like so far this process has been relatively easy for you. Can you talk a little bit more about what Billy's Daycare Staff did to make the experience positive and smooth? Yes, absolutely. I would love to. Okay, so before I even address that, I think it's important to just really restate for listeners that the state of things in Canada is a lot less scary and intense than it is in many, many states in the US right now. So I'm going to talk about what the daycare did to make this such a positive experience for Billy with the understanding that this is a complicated issue and that it is quite literally dangerous to affirm gender for kids in this way in a lot of places. So like I said in my story, the daycare owners said that this was the first kid that they'd ever had in their daycare to correct them about her gender. So I think that the way that they approached this experience was really admirable, especially considering it was their first time. Here are just some bullet points of the choices that they made that I think were really important. So the very first and most important thing is that they took Billy's statement about her gender seriously. So to my knowledge, they did not correct her. They did not argue with her. They did not try to understand if she was confused. They just followed her lead. That's incredible. Totally. The second thing is that they had a staff meeting to make sure that everyone on staff was aware of how they, as a team and an organization, were going to proceed. They also had a special story time with all the kids in Billy's class where they read a book about a teddy bear who comes out to her human and her human accepts her. No questions asked. I will recommend this in the recommendation section because it is a delight. Thank you in advance. Oh, you're so welcome. And then the last thing is they only gave me positive updates. I kind of got the feeling that there were no negative updates, and the reason why that's important is because if there were any negative updates, the daycare dealt with those issues in such a way that it didn't affect Billy's experience being a kid there, and it didn't affect my experience or Trevor's experience putting our child in the care of this organization. That's beautiful. I also noticed though that you didn't include the fact that they checked in with you right away about Billy's gender or about what Billy brought up to them, and that feels surprising to me. Like, wasn't that important to you? So yeah, I thought about this a lot when I was writing at these bullet points. It was important to me, but as parents, Trevor and I had been sending Billy to daycare in like pink and in dresses from a very young age, so I think it was reasonable for them to assume that they could talk to us about it. And in the context of gender-affirming care, especially in this climate, I would hesitate to assume that all parents would or will respond lovingly to learning that they've been misgendering their child. So while I think it was important for me, I wouldn't say that it was a like an objective crucial step in the process, if that makes sense. It does. And I think part of what I'm hearing is that in some ways, this incredible, smooth, positive experience was also because you and Trevor set that stage, right? You made it clear from the start that maybe you were parents that would receive that information, that you were going to allow your child to be who she was, to express herself, however. And right, it wasn't just that the school did a great job, but it sounds like you did a great job letting them know they could tell you. Okay. Well, that's not the topic of this episode, but when we do have an episode where I talk about all the things that I did right, then we can talk about how scary and stressful it was the first time I sent Billy to daycare and address, but that is a different conversation for a different day. Absolutely. And, you know, I think to your point, like in previous episodes, we've talked about the idea that often a non-parental caregiver might be the safest or most comfortable person around whom a kid can be their authentic selves, right? Some parents maybe don't know or haven't figured this out yet, or that message just hasn't been received and, you know, a teacher, a daycare worker, you know, another trusted adult might actually be the most important or safest or most comfortable person for that child to express this to because either the child or the other caregiver doesn't necessarily know how it will be received by the parents. Yeah. I mean, I wish that that wasn't the case. It would be really awesome to think that all parents will put the well-being of their kids first, but I think that especially given the misinformation that circulates around kids and gender identity. I think a lot of parents might be under the impression that denying their child gender affirming care is the way to love them. And I'm just going to express my hot take here and say that that's wrong. That is incorrect. You know, that is a hot take and I'm on board with it. And I think that, again, this comes back to what it is we are talking about here, which is setting a tone. So today we are talking more to non-parental caregivers and parents or, you know, primary caregivers, if you're listening, you, like Marcel and Trevor, could also set the tone and set the stage for those non-parental caregivers to respond in kind, right? So whoever it is that's receiving this information and presenting this information, it sounds like a big piece of what worked so well for your family, Marcel, was the approach being very calm and sort of normalized, right, like not a big deal, not panicked, really positive, really welcoming. And whoever has the information first can try to set that tone. And remember, it's good news. Exactly. And if you phrase it like bad news, actually, you know what? I know we're going to get into it in the next segment more, but the fact that Billy's teacher, when I was like, "Uh-oh," the fact that right away she was like, "No, no, no, it's nothing bad." Yeah. I think that that really stands out to me. That's like one of the things that I remember really clearly about that interaction. And I think that's really important, that this isn't a bad thing. Might be a hard thing, might be a challenging thing, might involve a lot of adjustments and second guessing the language that you use to talk about somebody, but it's not a bad thing. I think the other piece of why a non-parental caregiver might be the most comfortable person for a child to share this with is also the importance of that primary caregiver relationship. So I can talk about for myself, I always knew that my parents loved me and supported me no matter what. I never worried that my parents would disown me or not support me. I also knew that I appreciated my good relationship with my parents and knew that sharing personal information that they might struggle with, that that could bring tension or could at least change our relationship or impact our relationship. And I think especially for kids, there is the awareness like, "Okay, this is my parent. This is the person that I'm living with. This is the person that I want to or need to maintain a relationship with." And so that's maybe not the person I'm going to start with. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think too, depending on kids at different ages, might feel for any number of reasons, not least of which is their astrological sign, might feel compelled to parent their parents a little bit. And so giving their parents information that they know will be a stressor of some kind, even if like we said, it's not bad news, but it's a change and change stresses some people out. I think, yeah, that's another really solid reason why kids might turn to somebody who they feel close to and who they trust to kind of help them navigate that sort of tricky path. So, Marcelle, last time we talked about the importance of building a loving community for queer and trans and non-binary kiddos. Why do you think it's so important for places like day cares or other caring adults to create those kinds of communities even without the parents' involvement? Yeah. This is so tricky right now because in addition to there being just a lot of transphobic parents out there, there are a lot of new laws being introduced that quite literally prevent gender affirming care. And these things are real and these things are scary. And we have talked previously about how this podcast is a space of joy, and it's a space that is supposed to center joy. And so, without dwelling on the fact that these are real and stressful and scary things, it is important to acknowledge that we are living in a real tricky time. But even if it is a real and tricky time, at the end of the day what's important is letting trans and non-binary kids be kids. So as much as I want my kids to trust me and to feel safe with me, what I want most of all is for them to be safe. So if for any reason, Billy's Daycare doubted that they could talk to me or Trevor about Billy's gender, I feel very strongly that my feelings about that are less important than Billy's feelings about herself. So it feels really important to acknowledge and to honor the work that schools and daycares are doing right now to respect the gender identities of kids in their care, especially given the increasingly hostile climate that's making those actions very dangerous. A big part of what you're talking about is honoring the personhood and the autonomy of children, daycares, schools, other child and youth-focused spaces. I think often one of the expectations and hopes is that that's a space where children can grow and become themselves and figure themselves out and try things and practice and learn, and kids being kids. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was very surprised to learn that some people think that daycares are bad, and maybe they used to be. I don't know, but I just feel so strongly that early childhood education is not my forte, and it was really important to me that Billy got to be around people who had the energy, who had the imagination, who had the education and the training to support her and help her to learn in all of these ways, and so that meant that I got to be her mom. For me, I felt that it was really important that my job as a mom was to snuggle Billy, to read her stories, to create an environment where she felt safe, to ask me questions, and for me to impart my feelings about the world or to bounce ideas around with and stuff like that, but in terms of learning what the names of shapes are and why texture is important. I was never going to be able to do that stuff because I don't... Because you don't know what a square is. I do know what a square is, but there are times when she will use terms like trapezoid and I'm like, how did you learn this? She wasn't going to learn the names of shapes from me, that's for sure, and she also wasn't going to get to spend time playing and figuring stuff out with other kids if she was with me, and so the decision that we made for our family for Billy to go to daycare was one that really focused on what space is going to be best for her to be a kid and to learn through play, and we decided that that was daycare. Now, Raimi, if I can just backtrack a little bit. Oh, please. You used the phrase, let kids be kids, and I know you did that deliberately, and I love that you did that deliberately. You handed it to me on a silver platter, and the reason I want to talk about it is because this is language that the transphobic and fascist movement to criminalize gender-affirming care is, this is language that they are using in order to make it sound dangerous to affirm the gender of children. Yeah, I want to talk about it. I want to talk about why that's wrong. Yeah. Well, I think if we go back to that phrase, let kids be kids, there's underlying assumptions like what does it mean to be a kid, and I think that can go along with play and learning and growing, and I also think one of those underlying messages or one of those implicit messages is often innocence, that kids are supposed to be these blank slates, they haven't messed up like adults yet, and I think you were alluding to there is this message or this idea that allowing kids to explore gender and gender expression, that that is no longer innocent, that that is too adult for kids. And I believe that actually it's very normal, like that is not only a developmentally quite normal part of childhood, it is also just a fact of life sometimes, right? There sometimes are going to be concepts and topics that feel really big or complex or complicated that kids will grapple with. That's just reality, and so letting them be kids is letting that be real, and letting them work through it in their own childlike magical way, right, like pulling dresses out of the dress-up box or whatever it is, playing, you know, rescue the princess, right, like those kinds of things, maybe that's not how an adult explores gender necessarily, but that is a child-appropriate way of thinking about a potentially more complicated concept. Yeah, you know, this is making me think so much about the conversations that we were having when we recorded our episode on gender euphoria and how there are so many ways to feel good in the ways that you decorate your body, you know, and letting kids play with things like crinolines and dresses or night costumes, you know, stuff like that. These modes of play don't necessarily mean that your child will grow up to slay dragons, you know, like we understand that they're playing insofar as we realize that the outfits that kids dress up in, like, does not equal their future career. It also doesn't need to equal their future gender, but also if your kid really likes dressing up as a doctor and then they grow up to be a doctor, it gets to be this really nice story about how your kid always likes dressing up as a doctor. And so, you know what? If your child who was assigned male at birth really likes dressing up in, like, dresses, it can also be a really nice story about how they always knew that they were a girl, you know? Yeah. Or maybe it's a story about how that was how they felt as a young child and, you know, later they still knew they were a girl and hate dresses. Yeah. It's incredible how flexible gender is when we just let people play with it, right? I also, I really like what you just said. The phrase "allowing kids to decorate their bodies" made me think of, like, temporary tattoos. Totally. Like, my guess is most parents are probably not going to allow their young children to get permanent tattoos, you know, that's a pretty big decision for someone to make. And a lot of those same parents will probably let their kids play with temporary tattoos because it, again, temporary, it's in the name, it's not permanent. It is something that can be washed off if it's an issue and it can just be fun, right? It can be a way for a child to, you know, express and try things out and feel like a grown-up in the ways that kids think it is to be a grown-up. Yeah. I don't know many kids that are trying to be, you know, be an adult by, like, doing taxes. Oh, but, you know, Billy really does love math. She can do my taxes then. Okay. Well, you know, Raimi, we're talking about, we're talking about gender-affirming care for kids in a real tricky climate. And... By tricky, do you mean transphobic? Yeah. Let's be specific here. How do you do gender-affirming care for kids in a transphobic climate? Because this is what I think a lot of us are having to grapple with. So before we give maybe some more specific or concrete ideas, I wanted to share, you know, what that question brings to my mind, which is a couple weeks ago on Saturday Night Live. The very first non-binary cast member, Molly Carney, did a segment on Weekend Update specifically really talking to that question and in a lot of ways talking to kids, talking specifically to young people. And the thing that just really stuck with me was, Molly was talking about when people, when society, discusses trans children or trans youth, we somehow forget that the second word is children. We get really fixated on the qualifier of like, "Well, what do we do for trans children?" As opposed to like, "How do we affirm children?" Because that's who we're talking about, right? We're talking about children, about youth, about young people who we want to feel cared for and respected and safe and loved. And I think that feels like the most encompassing answer, it does not at all address the reality of the challenges that can come up in this current climate. And I do think that it feels like a really wonderful sort of guiding light of, "Okay, this is a child, how do we make this child feel affirmed and cared for and respected and safe?" I mean, I think as a guiding principle, you said that it doesn't address the specifics, but I think it kind of could if we think about gender affirming care, and I think we've talked about this before a little bit, but gender affirming care doesn't need to only be for trans and non-binary kids, right? And so like, if we just think of gender affirming care as the umbrella way to embrace all children's gender expressions, whether it's like extremely normative or extremely not normative, I think that that in itself seems like a really great way to start. I love that answer. Okay, well then, let's talk about specifics. Raimi, I've got some ideas. Tell me what you think. Please. Well, I would suggest avoid blanket gendered language to the best of your ability. So I know that I said in my story that Billy's Daycare uses gendered language like good boy, good girl, big boy, big girl, that kind of thing. But I would just throw it there that you could probably avoid gendered language in many cases. I will say that it can be tricky because society has ingrained in us that the only way to like let a kid know that they're doing a good job is to say good boy or good girl. But we do have other words. I confess, I try really hard. It's definitely easier the more years that I've been doing it, but like saying things like good job or thank you for helping or you're such a great helper or like there are lots of things that you can say and it's true that you do need to think a little bit instead of just like quickly instinctively saying good boy or good girl. But I would also as an educator say that good boy and good girl are not very specific and I think that even if they are well-intentioned could be more clear. Thank you for that taking your red pen out on society's language and correcting us. I think some of this hopefully is becoming more common knowledge, but especially if you're talking to groups of people, right, like friends, class, everyone, kids. And you know, I often use that language when I am speaking to any group of people regardless of their age, which also means I think adults often think I'm a little, a little, a little cute friend. I'm a little cute, a little too cute like, hey friends, they're like, I'm not your friend, you know, and you know what, that's fine. I'm okay with that because I'd rather that everyone thinks I'm a little too cutesy, but no one thinks that I'm assuming something about them. What are some other key things that you think all folks can adopt in their... Well done. Thank you. In their embarkment on the gender affirming ship that is life. You know, one example that you gave in your story earlier, Marcelle, was, you know, following the child's lead, if a kid says this is the name I'd like to go by, these are my pronouns, these are words that I do or don't feel good, okay, then use those words or don't use the word, right? Like reflect back, mirror their language, reflect back to the children in your life, what they are asking of you. This is not going to come as news to a lot of people, but it is amazing how important it is to normalize the sharing of your pronouns. I think in my humble opinion, especially if you are a cis person, one, okay, listen, my name is Marcelle and people see my name and they assume that I am a man a lot. And I don't like that. And I have a lot of privilege and I still don't like that. So when I include she and her in my bio or in my email signature or wherever, it helps to tell people how to address me correctly. And if that works for my privileged face, it's going to be very helpful for everybody. I really appreciate you sharing that, that experience of yours, right? Like you said earlier, well, like you said earlier, everything we're talking about is not just for trans or non-binary or gender expansive kiddos, right? This is to create a more affirming world, hopefully, for kids, for people. And when we do a better job of using that sort of inclusive, intentionally validating language, that's generally going to work for more people. And you know, I think something I've, I think I've started to notice is as we've, as a culture gotten a little more used to sharing pronouns and sort of normalizing that practice, I think there's also sometimes a tendency for people to say like, I shared my pronouns, the end, I did it. And I, I think normalizing these practices is really powerful, especially if you are, you know, then respecting what other people are sharing with you. And I think the, the language that we use and normalizing inclusive language is very much a first step, not the step, right? I think saying I am someone who's going to share my pronouns to model to people that that's okay, then means if someone hears that and says, oh, maybe that's someone I can talk to about this, that you are ready to respond affirmatively. Totally. Yeah. Right. So knowing that sharing pronouns, respecting people's names, that practice is important and it can be a really key indicator to someone that you, you could be a safe person. And so my hope for people is that part of that gender affirming care is having done your own work so that you're ready to follow it up, to respond to whatever else comes up. What do you think about the idea that even if a person hasn't, you know, as you say, done the work to, to be the person at the very least having a kind of humility in knowing that they have work to do. So if somebody reaches out and wants them to be that safe person, at least being able to say like, I've got a lot of learning to do, but I'm here to learn with you. Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Great. Wonderful. I appreciate that question Marcel because you're right that even if someone does all the work they could possibly do, that doesn't mean that they are always going to feel fully equipped or ready or know every single thing that could ever come up about gender ever. My goodness. If only right. That's not the expectation. Right. Yeah. I don't know. There are plenty of things I don't know. Right. And so I think you're right that that humility and that willingness to go on the journey with kids, with families, that's a much bigger piece than having the specific correct information. So yeah, so true. One other thing that I have noticed with Billy is that kids are really capable of understanding gender and pronouns much earlier than I think we give them credit for. And certain conversations that I've had with Billy about like, oh, your friend, you know, so and so what pronouns do they use? And Billy will tell me. And so that way I know how to refer to that friend or similarly, and I love, I love this. If I, if I gender someone, Billy will often correct me and say like, mama, you should say they because you don't know if their pronouns are she and her. And I will say, gosh, you are so right about that. I really, I really should have said they. That is a very good point. Getting schooled. Speaking of humility. Yeah. Look, kids are not going to be right about everything. No, they're not. I mean, neither are adults. Oh, oh my goodness. So true. But, but I don't know that they can be right about a lot of things. And I think you're right that probably a lot more than we give them credit for. Yeah, definitely. I think it's, I think it is maybe a lot easier to normalize asking kids what kinds of pronouns they like for themselves. I think, I think that is easier than a lot of the fear mongering would suggest asking a kid what pronouns they like for themselves is not the same thing as telling them that they are wrong about the pronouns that you have been using, but it might be a good chance to learn if, in fact, you have been wrong about the pronouns that you've been using for them. Yeah. This conversation or this part of the conversation is making me think back to many, many moons ago when I worked at an after school program and all boys school of all places. And I was working with kindergartners, okay, cute, and it was very cute. They often had questions about my gender. And most of the time I responded with things like, you know, if they said, are you a boy or a girl? I would say, what do you think? Or does it matter? And sometimes, you know, I would say, what do you think? And they would say, boy or girl and like move on or I'd say, does it matter? And they'd say, oh, I don't know and move on. Never seemed distressed, perfectly happy to go back to beating me in chess. Even back then when I don't think anyone else was speaking to these kids about gender or pronouns or, you know, the fact that there's more than boys and girls. And then my sort of honest response that still didn't give a ton of information. That was fine because I took the question seriously and engaged and then gave some kind of answer and they're like, all right, cool, we can, we can move on now. I really, I really love the idea that you may have been a person who inserted in some of their young developing minds that there are more options than just being a boy or just being a girl. And I think that that's really cool. I love that. And you know, I don't think I ever explicitly said that to them, but I think you're right and that's certainly my hope. We want to make it easier for you to help the kids in your life to be themselves and to see themselves represented lovingly in the world. This is the part of the episode when we share some things that we think make the world a more loving place for kids. So this week, I wanted to tell you about the National Center for Transgender Equality. They are an amazing organization that does extremely important work around the rights of trans folks broadly. They are based in the US. They have a ton of resources and information. And that includes information around children, youth, families and schools. And so I really recommend them as a resource, again, in light of the current climate and the fact that we did not give any great answers to what to do if your community is less welcoming. I think the National Center for Transgender Equality might be an excellent place to look for some more of those answers, both about legal rights as well as just useful information and guidance. Their website is transequality.org. This week, I'm going to tell you about the book that Billie's Daycare read to her class ahead of talking about Billie's pronouns. It's called Introducing Teddy, A Gentle Story About Gender and Friendship. And it's by Jessica Walton. It is so sweet. I really love it. And I can't recommend it enough. Maybe you can do a reading for us later. That'll be the Patreon bonus content is where I read all of these gender-affirming children's books. I love this plan. If you have a queer, trans-inclusive recommendation for us, we want to hear it. Send us an email at [email protected]. Gender Playground is a team effort. Team players include Rami Marks, Hannah Rehak, Rhys Carr, Hannah McGregor, and me, Marcelle Cosman. Our theme song is called Shout It Out by Gabrielle Papill, which you can find on her album, Shout. This episode was sound engineered by Eric Magnus and Malika Gumpankum. Gender Playground is produced by Witch Pleas Productions, distributed through ACAST and supported by you. Yes, you! If you've been following the Gender Playground journey, then you know that our show has been in the works for a long time, and we've relied on community support to keep it in production. Thank you so much to everyone who joined our Patreon at patreon.com/owitchpleas. You showed us that there is an audience for this podcast, and you gave us the means to bring it to life. We've received so many words of encouragement throughout the process from folks like you, and we are thrilled to now launch the podcast to the wider public. How are we doing that, you ask? 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