Product Management with B. Pagels-Minor

Welcome to Line of Work, a show about people who actually like their jobs. I'm your host Sarah Olson, and each week I interview a notable professional from a different industry. Together we deep dive into their professional journey, the decisions behind it, and what keeps them excited to go to work every single day. Look, the world in the job market has turned upside down this year, and if you're like me, you might be feeling a little lost. If so, listen on. Line of Work is here to explore just how many paths there are to finding fulfillment and what you do for a living. In this episode, I'm joined by Bee Pagels-Miner, a thought leader on product and culture development within technology companies. We talk about their experience graduating into a recession, which is very topical right now, why they chose to return to school multiple times, and what they love most about product management. I had a wonderful time talking with Bee, and I can't wait to share it with you guys. So let's dive in. Hey Bee, thanks so much for coming on the show. Could you take a quick moment to introduce yourself and explain a little bit about what you do for a living as of right now? Yes, I'm Bee Pagels-Miner, so a few important facts about me. So first and foremost, I identify as trans-nobinary lesbian, which means my pronouns are they them there. I am a proud, nor flustered, well-cat alum. I promote them all the time. I've been married to my wife for five years, and even though I now live in the Bay Area, hence my background, I actually am originally from the Mississippi Tennessee area, so I consider myself a son of a through and through. Now in terms of what I do for a living, so I am a senior data product manager for a large media tech company. And so what's really interesting about that is I kind of feel like there's, I have to give two definitions when I say this is what I am, right? Because there's one definition which is like what is a product manager? And so one, like, easy way to think about a product manager is that we generally own some kind of book of business for a company. And so that book of business can look like, you know, let's say if I was working for Apple, I could be the person who manages the iPhone and kind of makes a decision on what buttons or what features the iPhone should have. And the case of what my current company does, I'm actually a data product manager. And what that means is that I own a lot of the internal data systems that we actually produce. And so those systems can be anything from, you know, a team that a, you know, planning team uses, or it could be something that our CFO uses to report data to Wall Street. So it's very complex in that sense. I'm curious how you sort of got your start in the world of product management and what initially drew you to it. Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. So one thing to note about me is that I graduated in 2008. And so 2008 was kind of the last economic downturn before we, you know, before COVID, right? And so I actually started off like a lot of graduates from my college, you know, going into management consulting and actually lost my job as a management consultant. They just, you know, kind of were just like three months in. So if they were just like, peace, we don't have any business, you can go home now. I feel like that's happening right now. Yeah, tons. I feel like management consultants are going through a similar thing right now. Exactly. So like, hey, if you're going through that, there's sunshine on the other side of the tunnel at some point. And actually what I actually ended up doing is I ended up doing a lot of ad hoc work. I was the barista, Tvana, like, you know, my matcha, Mocha, like T was like the best. I also, so I was doing like handyman, like I was doing everything. And then I finally got a job at Target as a store manager. And it's actually really funny because my store manager was like, you're actually really bad at this. And I was just like, I agree, because like, you know, when you were like a young graduate going out into the workforce, especially that type of workforce where you're dealing with like very diverse people who have very different backgrounds, right? Like so, for instance, you know, I'm come, I just gone from this like, I really type education where I was with a whole bunch of snobby people who are very homogeneous. Exactly. And then I went to these folks who were just like, you know, this $12 an hour is changing my family's life, right? And so like, I had to learn a lot from that. But also what was really great about doing that work is that I found out I was a good people manager, but I wasn't, you know, obviously my passion wasn't retail management. And between my coat, my team members and my, you know, manager, they're like, well, the thing that you seem to be most moved by is technology. Like that's all you talk about. Like you want to hang out electronic section. Like why don't you figure out how to go do that? And there's like, there's a local university in Chicago called Robert Morris University. So I was like, just googling like master's programs because also my student loans were coming up soon. So I was just like, okay, so everyone's telling me that like I should go do this other thing. Plus I'm going to have to pay this bill and I really can't afford it. What should I do? And so Robert Morris had this really great like dual program where if you, like if you did their master of information systems, so it's basically managing technology teams degree, they put you through their program. And then there was like this really special scholarship. So it was basically free. And then you'd only have to take like six more classes to get your MBA. And I was like, wait, this is like the best deal ever. And it locks down my student loans for three years. So like no matter what, I'm winning in this situation. Wow. But it was actually through that program. One of their requirements is that you actually have to go out and interview and actually try to figure out what you want to do in technology, which A plus, right? Like most programs just like you go there, you like get dedication, but they don't force you into actually kind of defining what you want to do. Right. And so it was really great for them to like require that of me because at my very first job fair, I met this company called Cherisel. And it was just so funny because this startup, I honestly had no idea what they did. It was like performance marketing, which is essentially, you know, you know, you as a podcaster might have a website and you might put a merchant's link on your website and say, you know, recommend to your, you know, to the people who listens to click that link to buy that item. Right. And so that's what we actually did. So our whole system was just monitoring those relationships and paying out on those transactions. Oh, cool. So it was a really very interesting business. And what was really great about it is that, you know, I started off in, you know, very low level customer service. So like literally people calling in saying, you know, how do I control, like how do I copy a link? Like because we would say you have to copy a link. And so I had to explain to people how to do control C or command C depending on which computer they had. And also didn't like really blow their minds and say you can also do control V to paste it. Yeah. Not everyone is a technology native. Exactly. Exactly. But what was really great about that work is that, you know, the owner of the company was just like, well, you know, all of you are hearing all this information constantly about what people like and don't like. Like if you start putting that together, like we'll create like an FAQ section. And then maybe like if you guys come up with really great ideas, we'll build that. And so that's really where product management came from. Is that like I started looking at what we were doing, like when we were collecting that information. And you know, this is, you know, user information. And in some senses, even like, you know, if my CEO said, you know, ask people if they would like this thing, then we were doing like a version of user surveys. And so as I started doing more and more of this work and getting more interested in it, I started doing a lot of research on it. And so then I found books like, you know, how to scrum and like a lot of like really, you know, big product minds who had all this information that's available. And I was just like, you know, I want to be a product manager. Right. And so that was like 2012. I was just like, you know, it's been four years of me kind of going all over the place, getting the right degrees, like setting myself up for success. But the reality is is that everything that it says a product manager needs, which is like someone who like has a deep interest in technology, someone who has a deep interest in business, someone who has lots of customer empathy, I have all those qualities. These are the things like literally every time. I open an app or I use a device. I go, this is what I would have done differently. Wow. And these are like the actual questions and some of these product books that they've discussed. They're like, these are the things that interest you. Then this might be the career for you. And I was like, I check every single box. I don't need an aptitude test. Let me figure out how to do it. And so then I spent, really, I've spent the, you know, every single day since 2012, pretty much working my way, you know, from the traditional business analysts to social product manager to product manager, senior product manager, which now the senior data product manager. So would you say that you got sort of that first business analyst job directly from Robert Morris? Like, how did that transition go? Because it sounds like you decided when you were there, that's what she wanted to do. So actually it was from my relationship with share ourselves. So share ourselves, I got to do a lot of different work, right? So that's right. You know, starting off in very low level customer support, you know, going to the agency relationship management and managing pretty much like their largest book of clients and then kind of going to the pseudo product world by like generating information from that, those clients to actually build. Because these are like our largest book of business. It was very important for me to advocate very loudly for them. That became a huge part of my role was just doing that work. So one of the clients that I had actually was this company called 'A Solvation Partners' which you know if you don't follow Bob Blazer, LinkedIn and some other places you're missing out. Okay. Good to know. I don't normally like skinny white guys but like this guy. Like he just says like Bob will put something out there and I'm just like holy crap. That just makes sense. Right. And he's another person I learned a lot about leadership from. But you know his company needed a business analyst slash like DBA to run a lot of their reports and they wanted to create this cloud-based solution. They just basically were doing performance marketing in a way that no one else was and so they really wanted someone who had a lot of technical acumen but also who understood the industry. So one of the easiest ways to get into product management is to be a subject-managed expert on the topic that the person is looking for. Right. So I got to go in there and work with them as a business analyst and get that experience of actually working through the process of working with engineering teams. Like there was an engineering team I managed that was based in Israel where I was like giving them all all the different user stories and the different examples of what we needed from this cloud-based solution, while also working on my technical skills by doing these buildings, my SQL databases, creating these sophisticated reports they could provide to clients. And so that was actually what I actually use as a basis when I ended up applying for my next job that was gonna be an associate product manager job. I was able to use all of those examples as like, hey, FYI, I can do all of this because I'm literally doing it. I know it's not the social product manager title that you guys are gonna be hiring me for, but this is really my opportunity to kind of like, leap into that because that's one of the key points about product management too. Obviously, it's much better now than it was then, but a lot of times you end up doing a version of product management under lots of different titles, right? So, business analyst, social product manager, project manager, program manager, and so you have a lot of responsibilities of product management but we'll find the title. And so it was so important to me to get to that title and actually really be able to be super successful because I knew product managers also have this ability to have outsized influence on what the company does. And that's something that really drives me like I hate working at companies where I don't really have this opportunity to raise my hand and say, I think we could do this other thing better too. Like I know this is my area of responsibility, but like we could also do this other thing better. Totally. And so it was very important to me to get that title and have the ability to be in front of leadership and kind of encourage them to help build a product and build an environment that I thought would make us all more successful. - Over the course of your career as a product manager, obviously it's different with every product you work on, but how technical would you say your job is versus like people focused or is it really a 50/50 mix? - Yeah, it really, really depends, right? So like in my current company, it's much more technical than let's say my last company, right? But the company before that was more technical than this company, right? So it really just depends. And that's why I say it's like so important. So especially the product manager is really important to get a sense of the team, right? Because a lot of times you know, you'll kind of get into this situation where you get the job and you get in there and you're just like, wait, this isn't exactly what I thought it was gonna be. And that could be the concept of like how technical or not technical you have to be or how people oriented or how not people oriented you are. For me, like I am technical enough that I can get by pretty much all environments, but really my secret sauce is being a people person. - Yeah. - I really focus on like creating like very collaborative, very successful teams. I try to imbue everyone with kind of like that product at human and product thinking because I do think that if all of us have that certain bit of like lens to that we put on things, it makes us all more successful on how we think about building something. So for instance, when I'm working with an engineer, I don't want them just to build the thing and I've told them to build to my specifications. I want to give them all the context of like what the user said, why the user said that? Because this creates a much more holistic approach. And again, it's gonna create a greater ROI for both us and for our end users. - I wanna circle back quickly and touch again on graduating into a recession. What advice might you have for those folks who are graduating this year and maybe next year who are graduating into a really tough market once again and who maybe have had offers rescinded, have been recently laid off or there are just no prospects currently. - So I used to say one thing, but then I actually heard Tim Cook talk about the subject. So Tim Cook talked about the fact that he absolutely whenever have said that he was gonna end up being CEO of Apple. Like it's not something that he, you know, inspired to be, it's not something that he really even contemplated. Instead, when he was in undergrad and grad school, he just had this intense focus on preparing. He's like, I just wanted to be prepared if opportunity came to me that I could take it. And so he's like, you know, so a lot of times I might take an elective course because he prepared me better. You know, a lot of times I might go to this lecture because it prepared me better. And ultimately, every single opportunity has had in his life. He was able to readily accept it because he was prepared. And so that's what I would suggest is to prepare. And so preparation might look a little confusing when you're 18, 19, 20, 21, 20, 20, 20, 20, like whatever. - And don't know what you're preparing for, right? - Right, yeah. So what I like to say is start being curious, right? So start pursuing things that are of interest to you. Even then it's like COVID time, I've started doing a lot more reading on like Asian issues, right? Because there's been a lot of hostility towards Asian folks and Asian American folks and like, I just wanna be more knowledgeable about what that looks like and where the hostility comes from. You know, I also have started doing a lot more research just generally about like management, right? Because you know, I'm finally at my career, where I was very clear that like I'm gonna kind of continue to have to like manage more and more people and be like much more decisive in my management style. So I'm already going to start preparing for that, right? So, but let's pretend like it's a very foundation of your journey. You think, okay, I want like your basin, I don't know, New York. And you're like, I really know that I don't wanna work in New York after all this is over. Start researching other areas of the country. You know, start researching like what industries might be successful in those areas of the country. So for instance, when I think about Chicago, they have like a lot of financial, a lot of automotive, a lot of ed tech type companies. So maybe I would start thinking, okay, well, if I wanna move to Chicago, let me start researching those types of industries to see if any of those peak my interest and if one of those does peak my interest then let me go deeper and do a deeper dive on that particular industry. Because like I said, one of the key points, especially from product management, or really any type of company, is that if you seem to have a greater knowledge or skill in that area, it's gonna be much easier for people to believe that you could actually do that work, right? Also, in this particular time, start trying to figure out how to make connections. And so, Issa Rae said this really really well, 'cause Issa Rae like used to talk about people and how they would always like try to navigate up, right? So whenever they would go out, they would be like, I only wanna talk to the people who are above me in my career. And Issa Rae is like actually the majority of the people that I've had who've helped me in my career are actually my peers. So actually start figuring out how to create real deep relationships with your peers. Start asking them what they're curious about, what they're thinking about, the types of information they're taking in because that's gonna help peak your curiosity and help you grow in terms of the knowledge and things that are going on. I remember when I, in 2008, because all of us were struggling to find jobs and we all were like, trying to figure out what was going on. A lot of the stuff we talked about really was about location. We were like, okay, so FYI, it looks like this area is already starting to recover. In that case, it was Chicago. And that time, 'cause Chicago didn't really go through the same economic downturn in some other places. And so like, for instance, my friends were like, don't leave Chicago, just find it a really good job in Chicago. And there's a couple of companies that we've heard about. These are companies that are being incubated and things like that. So for instance, we signed up for crunch space. So all of us could, we were all be scouring it every day and be like, oh, it looks like this company just got seeding. Oh, and this person works here. Like let's go, I created a relationship, let's do this thing, like, whatever. It's all about this crowd sourcing because it also is too immense. So it's really weird is that even though we're saying that this feels like there's less opportunities, there actually still are so many opportunities. It's really more about like having the right skill set for that opportunity. - Absolutely. And I really resonate with what you said about location too because I feel like that's so prevalent given COVID-19 as well. I mean, in some ways it's not because you can work from wherever and be remote, but in some ways like, you can't leave where you are. So you better like where you live. - Exactly. - Yeah. So I know you talked about getting your masters and also an MBA and then you also went to law school. It sounds like. - Yeah. - You talked a bit about what went into your decision to go back to school. The first time, but I'd love to hear about the second time and any other times you've considered higher education and what went into that decision. - So from a very young age, I decided I was gonna be clear-hustible, right? So I was just like, okay, so clear. Has the amazing family, her kids are great, her husband's cool, and that shoes are attorney, especially in terms of black culture. And so actually, I'm gonna get on my soapbox for one second because I do think it's like very important to talk about this. - Please do, yeah. - In black culture they talk about what they consider to be like valid jobs or careers. So like for instance, it was like be a lawyer, be a doctor, being a service person in the military or the police or fire department or a government job or all things that made sense. And so it was very easy to try to have this idea of being the model minority and following that path. And my career was going well, right? But I was just like, I think that what this is really telling me is that I need to go to law school. And so I decided to go to law school and I was in law school and it was going well. I was doing my thing and you know what I figured out in law school is that it's like really boring, right? And like ultimately, like there's only two areas of law that I was very interested in. So I was interested in intellectual property law or I was interested in like civil rights law 'cause I wouldn't have changed the world. - Yeah. - And so in intellectual property law, I was just like, well one, I can influence intellectual property from a technology perspective. And two, from a civil rights perspective, I was like, wait, like I can do a law civil rights work for ever being an attorney. And then at that point, it also was very clear to me that even after 2008 economic downturn, the legal profession had not come back to its same economic opportunity. - Oh, huh. - And so I did like a full like pros and cons list. - Love a pros and cons list. - Exactly. And so just when I was like, okay, like I need to make a decision, I got this like amazing job offer that was like so much money. And I was just like, well this is like the final knell in the coffin. Like I'm literally getting paid a great amount of money. I do not have to continue law school if I don't want to. And fortunately, I got a scholarship law school. So I really hadn't gone to debt for law school either. So I decided to leave law school because it just didn't make sense. And one of the things that was hard is that, you know, that had been a part of my path, you know, since I was a child, right? You know, it's this idea that like I was going to go to school, I was going to do everything I was supposed to do. And I was going to go to law school. And I was going to become an attorney. And I was going to be clear-huxable. But the reality is, is that Claire, like she's my sister, she's my aunt, she's a mentor. But she's not who I am. Like I am B. And you know, the path that makes most senses for B. I know, at least I've heard sort of among my class and my colleagues and friends, divorcing yourself from the stories that you told yourself as a kid. And maybe the narratives that you were told by people older than you, that's a really difficult transition. And I know a lot of people have been talking about how they feel so lost is because they, you know, no longer have that dangling in front of them. And it's and it's hard to sort of go find what actually brings you joy. So I really appreciate you saying that. Do you have any sort of like recommendations, more advice thoughts for people who are considering higher education, masters, law, whatever it might be? Yeah. So one mixture is economically valuable. You know, so I was able to basically go get a lot more education for little to nothing. Right. Yeah. And that's a huge deal. That meant that it really wasn't a hardship for me to either opt in or opt out. Like it really made it simple for me. So one, really check your options out there. Like it's surprising to me. Like for instance, I was mentoring someone. They were like, well, I'm only going to go to either like Harvard Business School or New York, Western Business School or Yale Business School. And I was like, what are you thinking of the like the head of the Community of Scholarship to anyone of those three schools? Money, money, money. Exactly. And they were like, well, probably not. And I was just like, well, what do you think the economic likelihood is that you're going to get a job immediately? There's going to pay for that that school. And they were like, well, there's no guarantee. And I was like, exactly. So one money is important. Like don't let it rule everything that you do. But make sure that you really run those numbers and make sure you feel very comfortable. Because once you get out, like, you know, you're just stuck. Yeah. Secondly, make sure the institution has a lot of support for folks around it. Right. I was really, really pleasantly surprised at my experience at Robert Morris because at every single level, they were constantly connecting with people, constantly encouraging me to go out and get the skills necessary. So I could actually, you know, as soon as I graduated, go into my chosen career field and be successful. So like half people who are going to be on you, like your mama would be on it basically. Yeah. And then third, make sure you do all the research, right? So like if you do decide you want to get an MBA, what do you actually think you're going to do with that? Right. So you need to think about like, so what company, like what is my job and like track back from the job that you think you're going to get to exactly what you think the requirements are for that job? Right. Work backwards. Exactly. And then there's something that I say to people all the time because even after part of management, there are some part of the manager companies and jobs that you really do have to have an MBA, like they're very, very specific. However, there's also so many companies that have product managers that there's definitely going to be a product manager job that exists where you don't have to have an MBA. So you have to be strategic and think about like again, what areas and what companies are actually interested in and then what types of careers do they have and then what types of degrees do I have to have to be successful with that particular company? Did you ever consider anything else beyond product management once you got into that field? So now that I'm getting to the point of my career where you know, it gets, it gets a little bit more clear. So once you become a senior product manager and above, you know, there's, there's just less roles at that. Right. Like, you know, you could be a manager of product managers. You know, you could be a director of product management, the P.O. product management. But then the question becomes like, do you want to be a C.P.O. And actually I was having a conversation with one of my mentors, I was just like, I'm actually starting to think that maybe I want to be a C.O. Oh, right. And I think that, you know, as I learn more and more about the companies and how the companies operate, what I really find is that the product space is just one small aspect of it, but really see me the co-company as a product. Yeah. And if you can make the whole company align better and be more thoughtful and be more strategic in how we operate in every single aspect of our business, then that's really the secret sauce to really make it something really, really amazing. And it also probably doesn't hurt that, you know, Tim Cook is one of the people by my most and he went from the C.O. to C.O. as well. I'm curious what keeps you coming back to product management and maybe tech as a whole if you eventually transition every single day. Like what is it about the field that keeps you coming back for more? I will start with tech. So tech is really challenging. There's no one answer and also changes constantly. So it's really interesting about my legal background is that it's, it's led to me having a lot of opportunities to do a lot of compliance work. And so also I think from the perspective of countries and, you know, industries trying to regulate themselves. There's a lot of complexity that's going to come with that. And so there's like a certain amount of curiosity that I have to be a part of that conversation. So I think that's why I keep coming back to tech. When it comes to product, it's just really again, it always comes back to this ability to have outsize influence on the company. Like when you think about it, a product person, the decisions that we make every given day, impact, you know, let's say if you're a small sort of like share or sell at least a few thousand people right between the customers they had and their employees. But then we think of like companies like Apple. It's like I probably impact a millions of people every day with my decisions, right? Yeah. It's just this really wonderful experience when you do something really great. And you know, you create a great experience for your customers and also you create so much more financial security for your company and for your team members. And it's like there's something really powerful about that and something that makes me proud every day. Yeah, being able to see that impact is something that I certainly know I would like from my career. I also want would love to hear you speak a little bit about how your identity as a trans non binary lesbian has affected or influenced your career through tech and through being a product manager. Yeah, it's actually so funny because like my life is like in these little sections, right? So I came out as a lesbian in my freshman year of college, but I didn't come out as non binary until 2014 and I didn't kind of come out as trans non binary until 2016, 2017. So it's like all these different chunks, right? So being a lesbian and of itself, like I got along really well with the guys. Although I had to still say I'm also still a Southern bell. Yes. Okay. Of course I don't like those curse words. I don't like those curse words. I don't like any disrespect to the ladies guys. But I will say that, you know, for me, the biggest change came when I came out as non binary and then trans non binary. One of the things I will say about being trans and I think that whatever flavor of trans you are, like you're basically redefining something for someone, right? And the thing is, is that that's very difficult for people. Like it's very difficult for people to have everything that they've ever considered to be challenged. And whether it's right or wrong, the ways in which that they react to those things are very, very not great usually for the person who is a trans person. You know, for the most part, most people are great. They still misgender sure, but like it also is because of like literally the cognitive dissonance of being taught one thing your entire life and being told now that I really need you to say they them. And then also like why my name is still legally Bethany. Like my name is B and like I need you to respect that. But I've also had, you know, people who have really thought that they were being helpful to me, explain to me that they think I should not do those things. So people who should be my advocates, other people who are minorities even, who are very specifically said very damaging and hurtful things because they were like, well, but I'm telling you this because like, you know, I think it would be easier if you just went by she or her pronouns. You can do the they them at home. And I was like, okay, so you you only want me to be myself at home, right? Right. What? And again, we know like all of the operational like experts, they say the same thing. The best way to build a successful team is to create psychological safety within that team. And so that means whether you're in tech or health care or any industry, like in order to be successful at that work, you have to bring your whole self. You have to be comfortable bringing your whole self to that work. And so those are those are the types of challenges I've had. And so one of the things that kind of sucks about that is that, you know, well, actually, it sucks about it, but it also works that I'm a product manager. Right. So I'm already used to having like this outsized voice in my companies is that I have to advocate in every single space that I'm in to the point that like I have, like a cheat sheet when I started a company where I'm like, oh, FY, this is the things I need you to do before I get there. Like you need to introduce me to people. I don't want to do that. All right. We need to go ahead and set the like the specific boundaries of our relationship and how they'll respect me and how I respect them. And so then all my day and one, I get to hold people accountable. I don't have to explain my existence or justify my existence. I just get to start doing my work and saying, I'm B Pagos minor. These are my pronouns and I expect you to do the same. Yeah. Those are the difficult things. But again, I'm very fortunate, especially as my career is going on. I've worked at gradually, you know, larger and more successful companies where they had the luxury of really spending a lot of time and energy and trying to get that right. So it's become less of an issue. But it also still this thing that I know that I have to be very loud about because when my team members leave our company and go to that next company, they kind of keep that same mindset. So the next person doesn't have to do that work as well. That's so interesting. Thank you very much for sharing that. I appreciate it. Speaking of advocacy, I know that you hold leadership positions at multiple nonprofit organizations here in Chicago and beyond, including a fantastic organization called Howard Brown Health, which if anyone listening has not heard of, I seriously encourage you to Google it right now, unless you're in the car or something. How did you get involved in the nonprofit sector and how has that shaped your career? So when I first moved to Chicago to get a North Luster, I was looking for internships. Right. that we just pass the views. in terms of this possible. And one of my professors, which just like you should go intern at this place called Howard Brown Health, like they would really, well actually, this was actually the lesbian community care project, which was a division of Howard Brown Health. And then they focused on like the L part of LGBTQ plus. Well actually the L and the B. And so I was an intern there. And then eventually obviously, I learned more about Howard Brown services and I became a patient. And then five years ago, I became a board member of Howard Brown Health. And again, talking about this idea of like, how to prepare yourself, especially when I didn't have a job and I was looking for work in the 2008-2009 period, I actually did a lot of stuff for Howard Brown. And Howard Brown would actually give me like these opportunities to do these complex projects where I'd have to manage volunteers, I'd have to manage data or something like that. And so my philanthropy started out of one, like a need to just like make sure I have all my boxes checked. But it actually ended up being this really great resource to actually give me a lot of different skills. And I also think being someone who's very diverse, but then also who has like all this class privilege, right? From economic empowerment, it just really became clear to me as I've done older that the two main things that separate everyone from success or education and healthcare, right? And so that's why Howard Brown Health especially is such a big deal to me because like the goal is to eliminate disparities in care for LGBTQ+ people. You add on YWCA with that, the YWCA of metropolitan Chicago, their goal is to eliminate racism and also empower women and children, right? Because they realized that the number one building blocks you families are women who are successful, right? And so the two of those things put together to me are my kind of thought process of how I can actually make a real impact in this world because they're focusing on how healthcare and also educating and empowering women to be very successful. - Thank you. We're coming to the end of our time here, but I like to finish all my interviews with the same question. Do you think that people should be passionate about what they do for a living? - For most of my life, I will tell you that the work that I do with the non-profits is actually my passion, but it doesn't pay the bills. So that's why I have a separate job. But what I will say is that, especially with a past two or three years, I actually realize that my passion is just helping people. - Yeah. - And so as a product manager, I really get to help people in like a very specific way, but it's still helping them constantly. And so I actually do think that you have to have a certain amount of passion for it, even if you're like a milkman, right? So my local male dude, back when I was a kid, then he loved it. Like I remember him telling me, he was just like, well, I know when I deliver the mail, like I deliver people's paychecks, I deliver people's benefits. If I don't deliver this, like they will not eat. I remember laughing him at the time, but like, - It's true that I was like, no, but he's like, I'm ready to say right. Like if he doesn't do what he's supposed to do, people suffer, right? And he was so passionate about that. So I do think there has to be a passion in it. The addition of aspects of work, no matter what work you do, like the similarity is, is that you may not be passionate of all aspects of your job at all the time, but the high level, what value added, provide, you probably need to be a little passionate about that in order to be successful at it. - Absolutely, because that makes up for the other times that are just this log. - Exactly. - Awesome. Well, I wanna give you the floor, in case you wanna say anything before we wrap up here, if there's anything we didn't cover, or anything that you wanna say to a group of, you know, soon to be graduates, or have just graduated, or truly anyone who's feeling a little bit lost in their professional life right now. - Three things to highlight. It's gonna probably take a while, but the ride is really, really nice. - That's reassuring. - Yes. People are really freaking awesome, and so really investing people, because if nothing else, you're gonna have those people, and they're prepare, prepare, prepare. - Well, thank you so much, Bee, to those who are listening out there, check out their website, and check them out on LinkedIn. They always have incredible things to say, and that is it. Thanks so much for listening. New episodes from season one are out every week on Wednesdays, wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)