'Privacy, Please!' Lorrie Cranor on why she wrote a privacy book for 4-to-6-year-olds

[Music] Laurie Kraner has long been a leader in the privacy space. As director and Bosch distinguished professor in security and privacy technologies at Carnegie Mellon's SILAB Security and Privacy Institute, Professor Kraner is on the cutting edge of usable privacy and security. Her work has influenced researchers to view privacy as a fundamental design standard, rather than an abstract ideal. And her work has helped reshape the technology field with more than 200 co-authored research papers on online privacy and security. She has also served as chief technologist at the US Federal Trade Commission and co-founded Wombat Security Technologies among many other initiatives. Much of her work has focused on understanding how people interact with digital systems, where those systems failed, but Professor Kraner is also a mom and has raised three children. She has published a new illustrated book called Privacy Please, which is geared for children aged four to six, to help them and their parents understand what privacy means and why it matters. Professor Kraner and I caught up to discuss her new book, What Inspired It, and how this book can help children develop a sense of privacy, autonomy, and expression. We also discussed some of the broader children's privacy issues that are emerging in jurisdictions around the world, including through social media bans and age verification laws. Here's what you have to say. Professor Laurie Kraner, thanks for joining me today. Congratulations on your new book. Thank you. So this is a little bit different from perhaps what we've seen from some of your work before. You are a leading scholar and engineer in the world of privacy and data protection, but this is a book for children, right? A picture book primarily for children ages four to six. Correct, yeah, four to six year olds, and of course, their parents and teachers who read to them. Excellent. It's called Privacy Please, and it's illustrated by Alina Carabach. Did I say that correctly? Yes, yes. Excellent. So tell us a little bit about the book. So the idea for the book was to explain privacy in language that young children would understand and would be actionable to them so that they could actually find privacy in their own lives and spaces and get used to the idea of asking for privacy. Hmm. What was you had done some work? I think it was called the Privacy Illustrated Project, correct? Was that kind of an inspiration for some of this? Yeah, it absolutely was. When I decided I wanted to write a book for young children, which was because I tried to find one and couldn't. Yeah, I wanted to read a book at our local library at a story time. We were actually having a privacy day event last January at our local library and our master students were going to do demos for adults about privacy. And I asked the librarians if I could read books to children and they said, sure, and then I asked them to suggest some privacy books and they didn't know of any. I knew about Dan Solov's great book and they looked at that and they said, well, that's kind of for more like eight-year-olds, not really young children and really couldn't come up with anything. So I thought about it and I said, well, there seems to be a real need here. Maybe I could write one. And I thought about the Privacy Illustrated Project, which I did about a decade ago. And I went around and I had asked people, both adults and children, to draw pictures of privacy. And we have about 500 images on our website. So I went back and looked at the images drawn by young children to see what did they draw, how are they relating to privacy. And I found lots of parties, bathrooms big, adult-straw parties too, though. And I also found this sense of children liking to go to their room or some private space in their home, hiding under blankets, the notion of having privacy, but with friends in a closed clubhouse kind of space. And then of course the biggest threat to privacy when you're four years old is your sibling. And so we see that as well. So that gave me a lot of insights into how children were thinking about privacy. And my first draft of the book was basically a bunch of these images kind of strung together. And okay, what can I do with this and make it into a story. And then it evolved from there. So I think about siblings kind of gives new meaning to big brother is watching, right? >> Exactly. Although usually the complaint is that little brother is the one invading the space. >> So when did you kind of start this and how did this kind of transform into what has become now with privacy please? >> So I think I started thinking about this probably in October or November a year ago, and we started planning for privacy day. And after talking to the librarians, I went home and I started thinking about this. And I put together this very rough draft. And then I was with my family, including my now adult children, over the winter holidays. And I showed them the draft and we had a little family story time. And I was kind of prepared for them to say, oh, mom, this is stupid. Why are you doing this? But they didn't. They said, we really like this, you should finish this. And so then I got very excited and started thinking about, okay, how do I do this? So I iterated a bit myself and I put together a draft that I thought was good enough to read at the library. So on privacy day, I did actually read it to kids. I had it in a three-ring binder. I had a kid tell me it was an okay book, but it wasn't really a book because it didn't have a proper cover. And I talked to parents at the library and got some their feedback. And then I decided I really needed to go to experts on children. And I feel like I'm an expert on privacy and I have three children, now adults, but I know something. But there are people who really know children. So at Carnegie Mellon, we have a preschool on campus. So I went to the preschool and I spent an hour with the teachers at the preschool and shared the book with them, got their feedback. And that was amazing. They gave me a lot of really good insights into how they view children dealing with privacy in a preschool environment where they largely don't have a lot of privacy because they actually have to be supervised at all times. And so that was kind of eye-opening, especially I had a page in the book with parties. And it said, you know, when I go to the bathroom, I close the door. And the teachers pointed to the bathroom and said, actually, in the preschool, bathrooms don't have doors. Oh, wow. And okay, I need to rethink that. So it was really enlightening. So I kept iterating from there and then started looking for a publisher, discovered that it's actually very difficult to publish your first children's book. Publishers don't want to talk to you. They don't care that you've published adult books. And I finally gave up and my friends said just self-publish. And so I decided to self-publish. And I have a good friend who has published a lot of books for adults, self-publishing. And she kind of guided me through that process. Oh, that's great. And I want to ask you about the illustrations, too, but just kind of sticking with what you found, one of the things I was reading about this is written, not just about secrets or personal boundaries, it's kind of finding that space to kind of explore, right, and to express and to kind of be a human, really, right? Yeah, exactly. And deciding what to include, at first I thought a lot about online privacy because that's a lot of the research that I do. But I realized that's not the world that these children are in. I think the youngest child who drew anything digital in my collection was I eight years old. The really young children were not doing that. And when I talked to parents, they said, well, my kid will play games on my phone, but beyond that, the young children aren't really doing anything online. So it was really that personal space and personal relationships that I felt we needed to emphasize here. And letting kids know that it's okay to ask for that space. I think having dealt with young children, they get overstimulated. They do need that space and it gets to a point where they get punished. You're in time out now, right? But if a child knows that they can actually ask for that space before they get punished, I think that's a good thing to recognize that you need that space and you're going to keep needing it even as you grow older. It's not just something that two year olds need. Yeah, true. It's very true. How did you. How did you come across the work of Alina and the illustrations? >> Yeah, so I started looking online in various forums where Children's Book Illustrators put their portfolios. And I found a list of illustrators, I made a list of illustrators that I liked their style and their technique. And then my friend and I reached out to them to see if they were available and interested in the project. And Alina reached out back to me and said she was very interested. And I hired her to draw one image for the book so we could see if we were on the same page. She's actually in the country of Georgia. >> Okay. >> I have never met her. I have not even had a Zoom call with her. It's all been going back and forth via email. And I could see that even with just the email, she was getting it. She understood what I was looking for and would do a great job. And so I hired her to do the whole book. >> That's cool. Did you actually, it sounds like you had similar conceptions, not only just of like Children's Privacy, but I'm always interested in the kind of cultural views of privacy and being in Eastern Europe. Did that come up at all or? >> It didn't really come up. I had, by the time I hired her, I had not only had the book all written, but I had paginated it. And so I had rough AI generated sketches of kind of what concept I had for every page of the book. And so, and I had my very detailed notes. So for example, the narrator in the book is a child and we never see their face. And I had decided that I want this child to be someone that has their privacy. We never see their face. They're always wearing a purple cape. And that cape is also kind of an affordance of privacy for them. And so I described in detail, this is my image for this main character. This is what we're going to see about them. And Alina definitely got that. And we see that in her drawings. And then there were some things where she had questions. So there's some pages that illustrate a preschool classroom. And she said, well, I need you to send me some photos of preschool classrooms. Because I don't know what that looks like to you. So I sent her some pictures and what she drew is exactly what it looks like to me. But they were based on photos that I sent her. >> So if I'm a parent and I'm kind of looking for a book like this, what are some of the takeaways that I might be getting as I kind of read this to my children? >> Yeah, so I hope that parents will take away one that children do need some of the space. And how to give the child the vocabulary to ask for personal space. And we have in the book the main character says, when I need the space, I say, can I have some privacy please? And so that gives the child the tool, but also gives parents something they can suggest to their child. So we start with that. We also talk about certain situations where you might, in particular, where you might need space. So when you're trying to be creative, you don't necessarily want everyone to watch you being creative. But when you're done, it's fun to share. So that concept. We also talk about taking photos and that children may not always want their photo taken, even though their parents are always like, oh, you're so cute, take your picture. So we have that in the book. We have bodily privacy, you can change your clothes, it's behind a wall or curtain. And we have the sibling and asking my sibling to go away. We have a little bit about screen time. We have some go outside and play. And then the book ends with animals. Because that's something I found children really relate to. And I think that's something that parents can discuss with their kids. So, yeah, those are all kind of things. And there's a whole discussion guide on the website that parents can look at to help guide discussions that they have with children. That's cool. You mentioned parents taking photos of their children or people taking photos. I'm always curious. I personally don't have kids, but I know a lot of folks, they like to take photos of their children and post them on social media as they grow up. I'm always curious what people think of that and how kids are as they grow up thinking about that, whether they wanted that or not, that autonomy from their parents or siblings posting about them on social. Yeah. And I think different people have different views of this. And for me, it was always something, as a privacy professional, I kind of wanted to respect my kids' privacy. I also have a lot of camera equipment and it's not just my phone. I get out my good lens and I want to take pictures of my kids and my kids started calling me the mamarazzi. But I definitely want to respect their privacy. And so, first of all, when I post images of my kids on social media, it was on accounts where the people who would see it are people who I know personally. I'm not posting on Twitter where the whole world can see it. So I always thought that that was important. And I also thought it was important to give my kids some agency. So if they said, no, I look terrible today. Don't take my picture or I don't want people to see me doing this thing. I tried to respect that. Now that said, when it was family portrait time and they're like, I don't want to take my picture today. I'm like, Tom Black. We're doing family portraits today. You don't have a sign. Aside from things like that, I did try to give my children agency. That's cool. I'm thinking a lot too. I mean, so your kids grew up maybe hopefully don't mischaracterize as the pre-AI era. Maybe web 2.0, social media era. What are your thoughts about as we talk about these children's privacy issues in this new era that we're in with artificial intelligence and its rapid growth in our kind of everyday lives? Yeah, I think we don't even know yet what the implications are going to be. I think some of the precautions that some of us have been taking for 20 years actually still makes sense. So putting your child's photo in a private space and not in a public space, well, that still makes sense. I also tried to refrain from actually labeling my child on social media. And back then, it was kind of like, well, their face will get into a database, right? Now we know for sure that that absolutely happens and it might happen even if you don't label it, but certainly not labeling it still helps. Yeah, I kind of don't really know what's going to happen in the future, but I do think some of the things that we've been doing all along we should keep doing. Yeah, agreed. Kind of similarly, I saw this come up somewhere too. I mean, how do you know, and I know this isn't necessarily covered by your book, but as children are getting older, when to when the smartphone or when is the giving them access to a smartphone kind of reasonable or safe or responsible? Yeah, I get that question a lot and I put some pointers to different articles about that on the website because I don't think there is one right answer. And so I think parents who are grappling with this should read different opinions on it. And so I think my kids were like the last kids in their class to get a cell phone and they used to come home and say, well, so much more of this cell phone, so much more of this cell phone. I'm the only kid who doesn't have one. And I was like, well, great, you don't need one because whenever you're with them, they have phones and you can use theirs. So it's fine. Yeah, but I think the age at which people are giving their kids phones is getting younger and younger and at the time that my kids had phones at first, the schools didn't know what to do with it. And so it was kind of well, you have a phone, you bring it to school, it's fine. And now a lot of schools are saying, you check your phone at the door, we don't want everybody's cell phones in the classroom. So I think this is a moving target and it will be evolving. But I do encourage parents to think about why they want their kid to have a phone and what activities they want the kid to be doing on the phone and to think about, do they really need that or what boundaries can they put around it? When can they have the phone with them? What should they be allowed to do on the phone and things like that? So of course, we had here in the US, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act going back to 1998. But now, really, especially in this past year, the last two years, we're starting to see more laws around the world, around children's access to social media. I think this week, Australia's social media ban for children under 16 goes into effect. the STSAM regulation being kind of bandied about in the European Union right now, different various states in the US kind of looking at this. Do you have any thoughts on this approach to how lawmakers policy makers are looking at, you know, the intention of protecting children. Do you think social media bands or creating like age assurance, identity verification measures are the way to go? - Yeah, so I think lawmakers are being too heavy-handed and are sometimes making the problem worse in their efforts to make it better. But that said, part of the reason that they're doing that is that I'm not sure the social media companies have taken the responsibility that they should have taken. So yeah, I would rather that social media not be banned, but I would also rather that social media not encourage the kinds of negative behaviors that it seems to encourage. So yeah, if we could clean up social media, we wouldn't need to ban it and that would be my preferred solution there. So yeah, as far as age verification, I think that that actually creates a lot of privacy problems in its current form. I'm actually doing some research with my students and colleagues at CMU about age verification technology. And it's definitely a privacy issue for adults. Like you have to scan your driver's license and hold it up next to your face. That's pretty privacy invasive. So we need better solutions. - What do you think will be a good solution to that too early to tell? - Well, I think we are moving in a direction of having better digital identity solutions. And I think people have been talking about this technology since the 1990s. That's how I remember as a graduate student reading papers that were from basically cryptographers talking about how we could all have digital identities and it would solve all sorts of problems that were currently facing. And they were totally right, but they were, like 30 or 40 years ahead of their time. And I think now we're at a point where the technology has caught up, you know, back then if you wanted to have a cryptographic identity, you'd have to carry a computer around with you to do that. And now you can do that on your phone. So that we've solved that problem. But I think the problems that we haven't fully solved are the public policy issues around it. And the key management kind of issues where I think, you know, we'll get to a point that we all have digital drivers license, digital identity cards. And those could be used in a very privacy invasive way or in a very privacy protective way, depending on the design and the policies around them. And I'm hoping they're designed in a very privacy protective way so that if I need to prove that I'm over 18, I can transmit a signal that proves that I'm over 18. It doesn't have to send my picture, it doesn't have to send my birthday. It just has to send that one bit that yes, she's over 18. And any number of other credentials could be sent in a similar way. - Hopefully we're heading towards that very soon. (laughs) So your book can be found at privacypleasebook.com, is that correct? - That is correct, yes. And it's for sale now so people can (indistinct) - It is. - In time, holiday season. - Yep, yep. I would order it this week, (laughs) or real soon now to get it in time for Christmas if that's your goal. But yes, it is available now on the website and from the major online retailers where you buy books. - Oh, that's right. - And there also, as I said, there's a discussion guide on the website and there's some activities for kids on the website as well. I developed an activity with door hangers. The title of the book is privacyplease and I thought about it and said, "Wait, where have I seen that phrase a lot?" When I go to hotels on the door hanger. So I printed up some door hangers on one side. It says privacy please and the other side it says, "Let's play." And it has pictures from the book. And then I have an activity where kids can draw their own door hangers on a similar vein and put them on their doors. - Oh, that's excellent. Well, you're always so creative and just an amazing amount of work for our field. So thanks for sharing this with us, Lori. And best of luck with the book and all of your endeavors at SILAP. - Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)