Privacy as a Premium: Building Trust in a Cookieless World

Introducing Privacy as a Premium: Building Trust The Pod Network Entertainment. 0:06 Speaker 2 Listen to insights, strategies, and the latest trends in digital marketing. This is Next Monday, a podcast brought to you by the Digital Marketing Association of the Philippines and the POD Network. Each episode dives into key topics like ecommerce, branding, digital transformation, and more, offering practical advice from industry experts. 0:25 Then you can start applying these insights Next Monday when you get back to work. Stay ahead in the fast-paced digital world with Next Monday, created by the Digital Marketing Association of the Philippines and the POD Network. 0:40 Speaker 3 Deck and AI are changing the rules, platforms and creators are rewriting the playbook. But you still need to ship work on Monday. This is a Next Monday podcast brought to you by the Digital Marketing Association of the Philippines. For marketers that just don't have time for theory and need to get things done right away. 1:02 Every episode. One question, what is it that you can do differently next Monday? Not next quarter, not in the next 5 years, but actually next Monday. This is via live and I'm your host for today and we are going to talk about a very important topic on privacy. 1:19 Not just any type of privacy, but privacy as a premium building trust in a world of democratised data. And we have a guest today that is just absolutely perfect for what we need to talk about, not only because he is the managing partner over at David and Goliath, but also the president of the Digital Marketing Association of the Philippines. 1:43 And he also sits on the board of the Ad Standards Council. And he is Mr. Cheese Smith himself. So we need to talk about privacy in the world of Christmas. Hi, Mico. 1:54 Speaker 4 Hey. Hey, Villas, Thank you for inviting us here today and hopefully we can share more truthful information. Didn't dismiss stuff. So yeah. 2:04 Speaker 3 Truthful information in a world of democratised data that actually already came from Miko because we do live in this world of just really fast tech. Like everything's changing, Miko. But also that push for privacy is so important now, but a lot of people also get intimidated by it, right? 2:20 So we just really want to talk about what it means for us marketers. So you're the perfect person to talk about this. And the first thing that our listeners actually want to know, it's what's happening on ground. Like, you know, what's the reality check? 2:35 Navigating the Cookieless World and AI's Impact And my first question probably Miko would be remember that there was this time that we were all as marketers really, you know, there was fear mongering about a cookieless world. Like where are we? Are we in that world already? 2:50 And what's happening? 2:52 Speaker 4 About five years, six years back now, they Google started talking about removing all these cookies and people were now building everything on 1st party data. No, but you know, things changed. I remember a time though that literally we were doing workshops for clients of what they should do to build on these, I would say modes of data that they can, you know, manage with, right? 3:18 But it has since been abandoned, quote UN quote. When I say abandoned, but I'm not 1 completely. I think what, what the likes of Google did and the others is that yes, we will do a lot of work on privacy and keeping up that standard without having to necessarily remove all of these third party cookies, you know, out there in the world. 3:39 So a bit of crisis averted, you know, but I think there's new developments now happening in this world we live in. And I, I just find that every quarter there's new platforms that are now built, which have a lot more data it collects. 4:00 We're all very aware of the things that are happening with AI and the fact that people upload things over to these platforms that I think it's something you have to be careful with. But at the same time, it's a lot of opportunities for marketers as well, right, to be able to make good use of these things that they were sitting on for the longest time. 4:20 So, so I guess yes, it's a shift already, but or it's crisis averted. But we, we're now looking at a new horizon though, especially in the very, very, very near future. Like now. Literally now. 4:34 Speaker 3 Yes. 4:35 How AI Transforms Internal Data for Marketers So in the now world, in this now horizon, Mika, what does it mean for marketers given AI and exactly what you mentioned, like we're uploading all of these things and you said that there is a lot to gain, but are there also things that we lose in this new horizon? 4:52 Speaker 4 Well, okay, let's go back to what marketers have, right? So they have your platforms like beta, Google, TikTok, any first party data that you get on your forums, your ecommerce figures, No. So these things have been there, right? And what, what 810 years ago you started seeing these data visualization platforms, right? 5:14 That people using Tableau, Power BI and what not to really visualise these things. But I think with AI that it got progressively smarter and that you can now house things internally within your own computers or servers. You can now start to process these things. 5:30 And you don't necessarily have to have, um, I wouldn't say you wouldn't have to have data scientists, but I think marketers now can ask some questions and get some form of insight, not from their, their large pool of information that has been sitting there in their computers, their, their servers now. 5:50 So for me, that has really allowed more flexibility. It's just that I feel that marketers need to know, Hey, what are we have this type of breakdown within our system, you know, just to share, you know, whenever we have these client projects, the first thing I asked him is to see the report. 6:10 Can I see a report? So the level of reporting will already tell me some indicator of how they've used their internal data. And then #2 I would go and say show me the dashboard or where it came from, okay? Then they show it. And then the next thing I asked him is show me an export. When you show the export, it doesn't necessarily show everything that the report contained. 6:32 And from what I, what I see, then I say, okay, I think we can use AI to, to process these things so that you don't have to spend on connecting so many Excel sheets. You don't have to put them into one large single view. You can have these things talk to one another, you know, So I think that's what marketers now have in that in that place now. 6:53 And I think for marketers have been on the job for years and consistently working on previous projects or from the work of their predecessors, assuming that they have, assuming they have the consent of their users to keep their data for for years now. 7:12 But because of you have all of that historical knowledge, then you can see a time series of how things change. Are we seeing less consumption of this over time or are we seeing a change of demographic of our products or are we seeing new geographies happening overtime? 7:28 So that's what I feel people have now, right? But yes, they've been collecting the data. Yes, they have this access. But with technology, you can now do these things that really enhance the way you do your prediction or the way you do your strategy moving forward. 7:47 Because again, there's a time series aspect of. 7:50 Demystifying Data Collection and the 'Creepy Factor' It Speaking of predictions and using your platforms and the like, I just have a very curious question on the creepy factor. Like, you know, like a lot of people have, you know, started saying that they have a creepy thing with, you know what, what's going on? 8:06 Like they talk about something and suddenly they're served an ad. Yeah. Or they searched. You know, this is basic. We've known this for years. You search something and then the ad keeps popping out, like in all the other websites that you go through. But what do you think are the platforms doing with that, with the creepy factor? 8:23 Now that things are changing? Are there changes? 8:28 Speaker 4 GDPR and data privacy as standards and the standards vary per country, by the way, I just say that the vary per country because we had a situation where a Japanese company was so um was very adamant about how things are done and then we were explaining, but that's not applied in South East Asia, by the way, if you compare anyway, sorry. 8:51 Speaker 3 But that's important actually, that that's really. 8:53 Speaker 4 Important anyway, so. 8:56 Speaker 3 Ohh that's so creepy factor. 8:58 Speaker 4 Yeah, creepy factor, sorry. So no, I think you have to understand that every single platform has different things that they collect. So earlier I mentioned about databases, right? So the database will store all the fields that are collected, right? 9:13 Whether it's a timestamp, the browser history, or the actions done by the person. But when you look at platforms like Meta, Google, TikTok or the rest, no, they have these wider things that they also collect to understand behaviour of users. 9:29 I was sharing, you know, not many people know about my activity Google com And if you if you're logged into Google account, I would recommend take a look at it and it has a full list of every single thing that you open that you watched on YouTube, what you searched for on Google. 9:47 If you're an Android, every single thing that you, what's every single app that you open? I mean, not the one details inside the app now, but what app you open, what time, what places on Google Maps you were at and even your GPS and that has other equivalents in other platforms. 10:03 And when you start looking at these quote UN quote creepy factors, it's only creepy if you don't understand the context of why it's being utilised, right? So I think when we get served an ad, it's because of these multiple dimensions. Now, hey, this person is really in the market of looking for a vacation in a place or it's because they're really in the market, they're buying dog straps, things like that now. 10:26 So, um, and it's multiple signals combined just from one point of view. So I, I would say the creepy part is that, well, first, have a good understanding of what the apps that you have there and what could be the possible things that they do collect. 10:42 Sometimes the privacy policies sometimes of the platforms do share that what what what you do know, but but other opposite and the stationary, but the the fields that they ask you for adds to that factor. So think of it like, um, I'm at a gas station and the loyalty app asked for my birthday. 11:04 So it has context of the demographic of the person, how frequently I I gas up my car and where I've been gassing up and how much I've been spending. So things like that add context not but when you take a look at the app and other things it collects as it open your camera, open the microphone. 11:21 It depends. So the creepy factor will be highly dependent on the objective of the company or the app or the platform in relation to, you know, the normal behaviour of a person. 11:33 Speaker 3 Yeah. And it's also the responsibility of the person to check those privacy policies, right? 11:40 Speaker 4 It's tough no, I mean like every single thing you have to double check well, to be fair in mind, but if you take all these privacy policies or the what the app does know, iOS is a little bit more stringent. So when you take a look at it okay, not bad Wild West. 11:58 I remember this discussion in the past where it's a flashlight app, you know, but then why does the flashlight app need to access it, say my, my photo album, Megan Owen, you know, but so again, I think you can take a lot of these privacy policies, but you know, we just want to use a flashlight app. 12:17 You just want to make it simple in life and. 12:20 Speaker 3 You know, it's hard, you're right. 12:22 Flipping Data Privacy from Compliance to Advantage Okay, so let's talk about compliance as well as competitive advantage. So we know that data privacy is, you know, it's something that is important and it is needed across the board. But sometimes we tend to look at data privacy as part of a compliance checkbox, right? 12:38 Right. But we also know that data privacy can be an advantage. How can a brand flip the script, Miko, from just, you know, okay, it's a compliance thing versus hey, let's use this data privacy to our advantage to actually get our customers to like us. 12:54 Speaker 4 Now I think there are some platforms where, um, they really collect a lot of things from you, right? They, they know your behaviour, what you shop for all these things. You guys, you can imagine all the big apps that you're using, but I think if you demonstrate that you take care of the data and if you interact with one platform and then suddenly you don't get all of these messages and calls now that you have not subscribed for that actually reinforces your, your, your preference and trust for the brand, especially if they're doing a good job, but you know, maintaining things. 13:30 I think there could be situations where it's opposite. I tried using a service, a brand, an app or anything. Then as a result of that, but I got compromised or I started receiving unwanted marketing messages and all these other things. 13:45 Then you kind of start to look back and say, okay, this is not such a very good perception. No, that's one. I think the other aspect I'd also think of would be like when companies really take care of your data and does not use it for other things that, that, that, um, what's the word I want to use? 14:07 There's a there's a a silent agreement, you know, between you and the brand. Um, if they really stick to using that for delivering a great service or a great product and keeping it that only diva to what you've kind of agreed with, then arrange Anisha, you really end up reinforcing that that trust that you establish with that that type of brand, you know, so, yeah. 14:33 Understanding and Leveraging Your First-Party Data Assets Okay, so you talked about a lot about first party data already, right? Mika, what does it actually look like being able to build first party data for a company? Can you walk us? 14:44 Speaker 4 Through many first party data would also be your parent personal identifiable information, your name, mobile number, e-mail address. These are the most common things. Then together with that, you'd probably add your address and other identifiable information. 14:59 It could be like your driver's license or whatever. No, of course, there are no access, right? When I say no, one says because my real name is different from my nickname, right? So when that's recorded across multiple platforms, is it the same person? So what you would do is that let's use the mobile number, but people may have two mobile numbers or how they record it, like 09 dot dot dot cinnamon +63. 15:24 So those things could be other aspects. Now it's not just having these personal identifiable information that's there, but first party data can also be let's say the customer ID associated with these PII. 15:40 So for other companies you have customer 134. So the question is whether I change my number. I had a different address. Did this customer ID 1234 show up in other places, do other things and what not? 15:55 No. So I think that's the core thing. Yeah, but you have some some core information, then you have other things attached to it and then you start to observe and behave. Now, um, sometimes I get so surprised that people do not realise how much first party data they actually have. 16:12 I'll tell you about the project from nine years ago, OK. OK, So this is a large company. They have 7 distinct business divisions, right? Marketing team, IT team, customer service team, you name it. 16:27 Um, So what what we did is that we took a look at the the data sets of every single division, what they had and didn't have no, the output of one division is the input needed of the other division. OK, So see the customer service, No, they're already in serving the order and what not. 16:50 So they have the name, the contact details of the person. So when you have things like that because you're you're serving the product, you would get all of that and pass it over to the marketing team. So that marketing team do not sell them anymore products. There currently are customers are not going to go buy anything in the next three months because our product is something you don't avail of every day. 17:11 But sometimes there are these silos that happen, or sometimes they don't realise that. See, this output Bala is the input of the other team though. And that happens widely as well in a conglomerate setting where you have multiple divisions that are all part of one larger group and there are data sharing agreements between all of them. 17:31 But then they don't necessarily realise that, hey, the person asking this is the same person who will need this later. So that's still enough, that's still out there. And that's what you can really do with your first party data in reality. 17:43 Strategies for Earning Consumer Trust for Data Sharing So how, Mikos marketers, can we actually get our consumers to hand over this first party data and actually build a genuine relationship out of it? I mean, because especially now where people are a little bit more protective. 18:01 Speaker 4 See, there's a lot of scams. No, I think there's another a lot of brands that um, that have been around for a long time and have demonstrated building trust with the Filipino people, right? Yeah. And they have been there and it's because they are either conservative in a good way or at least they're very protective of handling their, their customers information. 18:24 So I think that's good. In fact, I remember a time where I talked to an owner of a company and that you can feel nano our data are data you will never get that and that's great. I really respect things like that. No, that's one dimension. 18:39 But the opposite side is that even though you've built trust over a long period of time, you still need to pattern only get what is absolutely necessary. There is a tendency for marketers to know everything about the customer, but terrible example, credit card forms from I don't know like 10 years ago, they will ask you 5 pages of information. 19:04 I know before 10 years ago, 15 years ago, but now it's like, okay, leave shortened the fields, the well, but it's enough to to deliver the service and it doesn't have a bad experience with a person. 19:20 And then later Hindi Sharang your, you're just trying to get as much data period now. So I think that type of blood is very, very important for marketers to exercise to consumers so that you you still have that that area of trust that you can exercise. 19:36 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. So my next question actually, Miko, is, is there a way to do like a values exchange when you're trying to build that relationship? So where yes, I need your data so that we can serve you better, but also you don't feel, you feel safe and secure with us and you don't feel spied on. 19:54 I mean going back to the P factor. 19:57 Speaker 4 Just just collect as much as you really need, you know, I mean, if you do get more than what you need for what you originally need as a baseline, then the question is what you do after. So for example if for example there's just one company where they have for example name, mobile number. 20:15 Birthday, I mean, just standard customer member information, things like that. And then the transaction histories that they have now, but they're clearly missing 1 component, right? So one suggestion was, hey, conduct marketing campaigns so that you can ask them to fill in this piece of detail. 20:34 Um, Shempre, there has to be a reason why you're asking for that. Is it because you want to serve more complementary services along that additional piece that you're asking for? Do you have children? It's a field that you can ask, but if if the reason is that, yes, I have children, then allow me to make services for you that cater to that, cater to that. 20:58 So that's why you always make it a bit optional as well. Yeah, there will be challenges to really get it completely, you know. But that said that that's you asking from them. But are there other marketing partners that have access to that data already that you can partner with Meganon? 21:18 There's a whole, I wouldn't say marketplace there whole universe of these things not. 21:23 Speaker 3 So ecosystem. 21:24 Speaker 4 Correct, correct. So leave Dynastat theme, they have permission to collect the data, they have the the consent of the customer to share certain data points. So you'll be surprised. So a perfect example of this would be, let's say G cash. 21:43 They were all the transactions that you make to the person where you're paying for a pet store, paying for a restaurant or coffee shop. That's all recorded. Diba Um, if you take on G loans, your creditworthiness is also there. Or if you pay do transactions overseas, that means you also travel, things like that now. 22:01 So that all adds to context of even the banks, right? Just even the credit cards or what you shopped for, where you went at what point in time. But if there are data sharing agreements, then you necessarily have to ask that from the customer. 22:17 But do you work with a partner to enhance that? No. So there are there are ways to do that really in a very privacy centered manner. 22:25 Managing UX, Red Flags, and Operational Data Security Yes, we're still protecting the consumer truly, right, because that's what we, I think we all need. Well, we are marketers, but we're also consumers, right? And so it's like, yes, we need data, but then at the same time, because you are a consumer, you're also, well, now we're also a little bit more conscious about the data that we provide, right? 22:44 And in giving consent on like whether we, we give our data or not. And Speaking of consent, I'm actually also very curious, Mika, about your thoughts on, you know, nowadays when you just go to a website, especially on your mobile, actually, it's more on your mobile phone where suddenly this data privacy thing pops up and it takes over your entire screen, right? 23:05 Of whether you're going to accept all or manage your preferences. And sometimes it's just so hard. So you just tend to accept all, but then think, hey, did I just give away all of my stuff? But anyway, like, yeah, how do we actually like from a UX dilemma standpoint, Like how can we make sure that they know that we're collecting their data, but then at the same time not, you know, be two, you know, but I'm not to give a bad experience on a digital standpoint. 23:34 Speaker 4 Well, okay, some caveat. No, before we become mega privacy, uh, paranoid folks anyway. So, uh, before we come to that, that type of person, I think there's certain things that they do collect, right? 23:52 What you click on. And again, when you read the privacy policy, they really try to describe what's the purpose, right? Look where we collect the following things to help serve your customers and gain marketing partners, even if it's the the general interface along the website, no problem. 24:12 I think what I do like in some other companies is that you do have a choice whether you want to receive communication or not. There are certain things, no. And whenever you get to opt out of these things, great, because when you look at cookies, it's still third party, is still anonymized. 24:27 There's still some layer of not sharing any information. But I think if others demand are really forcing you to submit some fields that are not necessary, then, well, I guess you can always take it up. No to them, the Philippines is not like other countries that really write and make, you know, compel the companies not to collect things. 24:52 I think we're generally okay with some of the dimensions that they collect the. 24:55 Speaker 3 Man, you know, Yeah, yeah, okay. Because I think we just live in the world where they're already trust issues. So yeah. 25:03 Speaker 4 I think I read a red flags go up in a certain situation. Stock say we can just have so many scams here in the country so. 25:12 Speaker 3 It's very unfortunate actually, because it really contributes to the paranoia and data privacy. 25:19 Speaker 4 Actually, if I can just jump on that note, I, I think when, when we have cookies being asked of us and it's a website that we know and we know what we are supposed to do on this website, no problem. But I think the moment that any platform, website or anything asks you for your personal information, your e-mail, your address, your mobile number, your name, then I think that's where you're ready flag should all go up, you know, or anything that is like, yeah, like even your credit card, things like that, right? 25:50 So I think that's where the red flag you should button quote, UN quote, okay to be aware and sensitive for these things, but definitely keep your red flags radar alerted during these times. 26:04 Speaker 3 You know, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And and it is a test of that red flag reader now because we're, you know, we well, we just had the cyber security talk just last week, right? There's so many of the, the vishing, the fishing, the squishing and all of those things. 26:19 So now it's, I think as consumers, we really, there is a test for how alert our red flags are. But at the same time, it's challenging us marketers to still be able to do our job right without raising this red flags. 26:33 Speaker 4 You know, it's funny, No, we talked about examples for the cookies, right? But I think what they liked about that cyber security discussion was that, you know, there are certain things in the operations of how you handle information, where it's stored, who has access to it, and when people leave the organization, do these access points also get removed, though? 26:55 And I think if you're a small company, right, and you're, you're, you're thinking about so many things, it may be possible to have these lapses, you know, that happen. So unless you have a really great process put into place, then, you know, not your, let's say if you're an agency, no. 27:16 But if you're handling companies data, right, as a supplier, as a partner vendor, yeah, then that's where the the mistakes can really happen. You know, sometimes I remember this situation. 27:32 I was given access to a YouTube channel, you know, OK, a few years back. And when I saw it like, ohh, my gosh, I'm still the admin of this channel, you know, things like that. Yeah. So and of course, the people on the opposite side, on the brand side have also changed already. 27:47 So I was like, I just want to get rid of this. I mean, I don't want to be subjected to this because that was not. They should have revoked it from their side. So you have, I have to now reach out and say, hey, by the way, no, you have to also, um, fix these loose ends. 28:03 Quote UN quote no. 28:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, and I think also Mika's, the challenge there is that so many things happen #1 already, and then they happen by fast pace that sometimes we lose track of that. 28:13 Speaker 4 Yeah, right. Sorry. When Speaking of like these scams and problems, can I just say something? Though this is also to happen during holidays and long weekends. So I think if you're not protective of your brand data, your client data, everything though, when people are out, that's when the problem will start to set in and then no one is there to recover it and what not. 28:38 Speaker 3 So to be there when you need them so. 28:41 Speaker 4 Would have so many horror stories like that. So I think not to scare people, but I think it's just good that it's just like leaving the house on a long weekend. Just make sure that the things are turned off or no gas, correct? Yeah, same banana. So just you have that on a regular basis of taking sure that any data that you have is intact and what not. 29:05 But of course, in certain periods you also make sure that the doors are locked. 29:09 Speaker 3 Absolutely. 29:10 Measuring ROI in a Changing Data Landscape So Mika, going back to everything that we talked about the, the crisis averted and the Coquilles world, right? It has changed, right? So there's still cookies, but the cookie stays different, maybe like that. And then we have the push for first party data trust being a huge factor. 29:27 And then of course, the paranoia around our data privacy, like as a marketer also and of course as our data guy, you know what, this ROI, what does the ROI conversation look like now with all of these things changing will change in the near future horizon that you were talking about? 29:48 Speaker 4 Well, honestly, um, there are somethings that people still haven't figured out. Okay, we, we, we hear this a lot. Are they, do my R articles translate to sales Deva or do influencers translate to sales or are my billboards translating to sales? 30:07 So things like that. Even social media, man. So everything they want to tie it back if it's not paid that links. No, but my general take is that people are trying to solve this problem. They're finding ways to, to do attribution a bit better. So when we talk about ROI of these initiatives for collecting enough data to attribute things together or for example, to link, let's say, customer information with let's say, uh, initiatives down the line though, um, then these things will start to, um, uh, have more weight and shape. 30:40 You know, sometimes I ask people, hey, can I ask about the setup of how you did things so young? They have a link there, but then you can put a tracking link on a specific person that you can attribute back, make it on the back. 30:56 They've taken it a bit more complex. There's a stool no called Rocket Link. What I liked about it is that it works like your Bitly link, but then you can attach pixels to it. So if people scan a QR code or click on a link, the pixel gets saved. 31:14 And then that gives you context later of what had happened though. And that can be done for a multitude of different use cases. So again, these are things that are still evolving. When our Thai counterparts came here to Manila, someone I was showing a solution around that and asked him, hey, if you can solve that and make it very practical, I think many people really get into it, you know? 31:39 So, yeah, so those are some things that I feel that we're still watching out for, you know, because every single company has a different use case, really different different channels, different assets, different contexts, different audiences, Yeah. And that's why the mechanisms that they have to put will have to adapt to all of those such use cases. 31:57 Effective Communication for Cross-Functional Data Alignment Yeah, Mika, from a marketing operation standpoint, right, Because of course we're learning about what these new platforms are doing or if there are new things that are happening. And like what you said, the the conversation around RI is changing. Like how do we make sure people are aligned in our companies now when it comes to data? 32:18 Because of course, everybody has different thoughts about it and what they want to get from it. But you know, given all of these new things like what are the things that we can do to make sure everybody's aligned with how we can use this data or what we can do? 32:33 Speaker 4 Um, let me tell you my personal opinion on this. OK? Sometimes the knee jerk reaction would be to tell people how the technicality is run, right? But I feel that the way to get people on board is to translate it to the to the way that each stakeholder thinks. 32:56 So, for example, for the young folks, okay, this is this is the master aspect to it. But the decision makers, they don't need to know that all the dimensions of the data, but they just need to understand, look, we have these things and this is what you are able to do with it, correct? 33:13 How does it work roughly master classes? No, it's not an overview, it's not a dumb down version, but it's a masterclass to help them focus on what it really does appreciate. Okay, so I think when you have different stakeholders who where the context is operationalized to each of them, it matters that they understand then collectively when you now bring the mall to a certain direction, hey, we should do this collectively and then they're aligned because they're very much understanding and problem because that you understand it. 33:44 The opposite side does not or like we have two different levels of understanding, right? So Hindi I do and they don't. It's like, no, it's only until this. No, you have to really explain it and as, as the Champions of that, we have to, um, we have to listen, listen to what the, what the challenges are, what things are looking for so that we can package and communicate it as well as possible. 34:11 You know, so sometimes in our line of work, no, in a Q&A session with, let's say, key decision makers or some departments, you could feel the, the apprehension or walls going up. 34:28 And then, you know, on the flipside, champagne, you're not trying to defend it. You're, you're also trying to understand. So sometimes that's where I used the avenue to ask questions. And I think that's a great point. What are you, what's the challenge? 34:43 So they explain it though. And for me, it's not to say that no, this is the direction. It's also like, if that's the case, what if we put up this mechanism then that way they don't feel that their data is getting collected or they're not putting a bad experience. 35:00 The consumers, the Tory ask all these things. So there there is some form of compromise. Now when you do these types of communications stuff, it's not like one way, but you adapt it and then you also listen to what kind of things we have to change. 35:13 Speaker 3 And what they need so that we can speak their language right? 35:17 Speaker 4 And then it's funny now legacy, when we say speak their language, I've had to change presentations from English to Tagalog to using simpler words for certain things or non jargon or for example even the manner I speak slowly, or even to make it to have interactive examples. 35:38 I realised these are all different ways to communicate that point. You know, I remember a few things. One is that I literally showed a diagram. Diagrams are easy to understand for people. The next thing is that I remember showing, let's say a dashboard or what the output looks like about what it can look like. 35:58 Or I remember showing something like. These are the challenges all outlined though? And then of course, you can always have the copy to read it after. So these are all ways that can I guess get the opposite side to always understand and get them aligned to where we need to go. 36:18 Speaker 3 And get their bite in. Yes, correct. Do they feel like they're part of the conversation and the solution so that they feel, well, when you're part of the solution, you feel aligned? Yeah. 36:30 Is Data Privacy Limiting or Fueling Marketing Creativity? Okay, Mika, so I have a sort of controversial question, like what's your hot take do you feel, because we're talking about privacy as a premium, right, as a competitive advantage, but what's your hot take on data privacy actually holding back marketers from being as creative as they can because of this, because of the need or is it challenge? 36:53 Speaker 4 We believe in the whole context of personalization at scale. Yeah, right. But there's a, there's a line that you have to draw about going too far. Yes, we can look at people from multiple facets and dimensions, right? 37:09 But we still have to, unless we've earned their trust, then we have to take a step back and put a little bit of boundary up until where our customers are comfortable with. No, definitely we can have personalization at scale. 37:26 We can really contextualist, make it easier for people put it to a language they understand and everything. No, pero, we cannot go publicly and flash Bay's name on a billboard, just like in Minority Report or whatever. We can't because they may not be comfortable with that, right? 37:42 So I think that's the an extreme example, but we really have to play that balance. 37:48 Speaker 3 Really true because I mean because the consumers again right now especially in this age of there's a lot of trust issues, you need to make sure that you're tumour feels comfortable maybe. 37:57 Speaker 4 Just to jump on that long though, I think it's not, I just want to say Luna, it's not just what we think. Maybe we have to ask, you know, true so far, for example, okay, we plan the following things, but yeah, let's do test, let's talk to consumers across different age segments or age ranges or whatever, but whatever they mention. 38:17 And then you then you truly realise, you know what, um, across the board, they don't like it or this segment is particular, but if you fashion it this way, they're okay. So I think that's, um, that's where a little bit of market research, you know, inciting communications with, you know, end users in that process of just not just delivering what is technologically possible or what I can think of as ideas still talk to the consumers that, hey, what do you think about? 38:44 Speaker 3 This stuff that builds trust going back to what you shared like, you know building trust because if you're able to bring it back to them and asking them about things and they feel like they are being seen, being heard, being. 38:55 Speaker 4 But that's great in the grand scheme of things that you have time and money to do the but let's just say no, it's still a master initiative. Let's still add the customer. Yeah, I mean, the worst case scenario, we cannot get a panel of how many people to say something. But okay, let me have a few chats just so that I have a sense. 39:13 No. And you keep that in mind as you execute it. 39:16 Summarizing Privacy Policies and Episode Key Takeaways Absolutely. I mean, let's not box out the consumer, let them be part of this process because it is their data after all. Okay, Miko, as we wrap up our conversation on the Next Monday podcast, we have to talk about what we're going to do this Monday. Yeah, right. 39:32 So here's my question for you. The plain English rewrite. Okay, okay, because privacy policies are usually written by lawyers for lawyers. So how can we as creatives, whether you're copywriters, creatives, teams, Strath team, you know, whichever, how can we make data practices transparent to our consumers for that that's easily understandable, but that they can relate to and also creative and fun. 40:05 Speaker 4 I always believe that we should always be able to summarise it in two sentences or in three points or anything. So if you want to put anything in plain English, summarise in two sentences, key sentence and then supporting sentence or three points, that's it. 40:22 So I think when you take a look at data privacy, things that we collect, things that we do sometimes when we communicate to our creatives or any stakeholder guys, these are just the things you need to know that encapsulates everything in that forces you as the person to, to have a good grasp of the situation. 40:39 True. So, um, to translate that, okay, we have so, so much information. Look, guys, it's just really these three things there, who they really are, how they behave and one more dimension and that that really synthesises things. 40:56 Of course it's not it's, it's a bit more complex than that, Pedro, at least from the opposite side. They they follow these same Prince 3 principles or two concern somebodies and then they they act on that to apply levels of creativity, rig or innovation and all these things you know. 41:14 Speaker 3 That's true. Thank you so much Miko for being a part of our chat on why privacy is actually a huge premium and a competitive advantage in a world where truly there is democratised. 41:25 Speaker 4 So much, so much data. 41:27 Speaker 3 You know, absolutely. And like what you said, we also live in a world where trust is a huge factor. And so it's good for us to know also as marketers how to tread this new horizon or new waters and have fun with it in the process like, you know, also not. 41:43 Speaker 4 Feeling it's a lot of fun I would say, but. 41:45 Speaker 3 Because we're trying to get, we're trying to put solutions to these challenges, right. 41:49 Speaker 4 Yeah, a lot of fun. But as we have fun, let's make sure that it's a safe environment. 41:55 Speaker 3 I love it. Okay, let's have fun, but in a safe and awesome way as well. Thank you very much Miko for being part of the Next Monday podcast. Remember team, what Mika said? Let's summarise everything in two sentences or three key points. 42:11 This is Baya and Miko signing off from the Next Monday podcast. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Miko. 42:19 Speaker 4 Thanks, Mia. 42:21 Speaker 2 Thanks for tuning in to Next Monday, brought to you by the Digital Marketing Association of the Philippines and the POD Network. We hope today's expert insights and strategies will help you level up your digital marketing efforts by next Monday. Don't forget to subscribe for more actionable advice from industry leaders. 42:38 This is next Monday where expert advice turns into practical application. 42:44 Speaker 5 You know, we couldn't be able to do this the next Monday podcast without the help of a lot of great people and maybe let's say thank you to. 42:54 Speaker 3 Them yes, thank you very much to our friends from AD Spark and M360 Avian Global Invictus, pH Future 1st talents channel factory add Scholars Team Asia Pack works and of course, our friends from the pod network. 43:11 Thank you so much guys. 43:12 Speaker 5 Thank you. 43:14 Speaker 1 The opinions of podcast creators, hosts and guests are not necessarily reflective of the official stance of the pod, net or entertainment, its hosts, or other network programs. The content created by the people behind the podcast is personal and not meant to harm any religion, ethnicity, group, organization, company or individual.