Pretty Wrecked With Tracy Viola

You are listening to the Sarah Fader podcast. I'm Sarah Fader and this is what anxiety feels like. I am here with I feel like my friend I've had in a past life at this point. Tracey Viola. Is it pronounced Viola? Viola, yes you got it. All right. So Tracey Viola, Tracey Viola, Masters in Education is a professional speaker, podcast guest and published author who tells the truth most people avoid. She is funny, direct and unfiltered with a gift for saying what others are thinking but won't say out loud. Audiences just don't just listen. They lean in. After alcohol and drugs led her to homelessness at 19, Tracey committed to recovery one day at a time. That decision made over three decades ago shaped her life, her relationships and her career. Recovery taught her strengths she never expected and perspectives she wouldn't trade as the author of pretty racked confessions of a teen addict and her road to recovery. Tracey combines academic training in counseling psychology with long term recovery to speak from lived experience, not theory. Her message is clear. Change is possible, but there are no shortcuts, only choices. Tracey speaks to teenagers, parents, people in recovery and anyone who knows something in their life that needs change. Her work centers on honesty, effort and owning the decisions we make when no one is watching. She challenges audiences to stop avoiding discomfort and start doing the work. Real change requires action, not intention. She lives in the Philadelphia suburbs with her insanely smart and sexy husband, Mike, her two hilarious teenage daughters, although one is headed off to college in the fall, and her rescue cat Lucky. And then we'll talk about where to find you at the end. But welcome, Tracey. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. We, I do feel like we're like sisters in another life. Yeah, it's so, it's so wild because we have sort of like the generation overlap. Like my brother was born in 75. I'm 79. And like, just reading the book brought me back to such a special place in my childhood. So thank you for that. That was my goal. I'm very, I love that nostalgic stuff. I love 80s and 90s. And I had so much fun working those little details into into the book. In fact, if you look at the cover closely, does it look like something from the, I hold it up? Yes. Does it look like something familiar? A pretty woman. Pretty woman. Exactly. Exactly. The text looks like pretty woman. Also, when you see Tracey's book on Amazon or wherever books are sold, you know, I have to put that in there. It looks like a notebook. And it's got the text that the font that resembles pretty woman. So very, very exciting. So yeah, let's jump into it. I, I listened to the audio book, which actually is a wonderful experience because it feels like you're talking to us and just sitting down and sharing your story in this very authentic way. And I wanted to just give you some feedback to tell you that it felt extremely authentic. So, it's, well, they are real stories with me saying them. And the, I think the trick was, and I did not plan this. It just worked out when I wrote the book, I wrote it all in first person. Like I wrote it as if like it was happening to me right then. Like I was 16 again. I was walking into the house and everything was gone. I was right there. And then I changed it to like past tense. So I did it in like present tense and then changed it to past tense for the book. And I think by maybe verbalizing it in the present tense, it, it helped to make it more feel more real like right in the moment for, for other people. So it just worked out. I didn't, I didn't plan it enough. But I'm glad it was like, it was like a happy mistake, right? As, as no accidents, just happy mistakes as Bob Ross would say. Oh, I love Bob Ross. Happy little tree. You see? Yes. We're just gonna, we're just gonna nostalgia out basically in this entire conversation. So I did want to say that I was, you know, I'll jump around timeline wise because that's I'm not a linear thinker. But no problem. I was going to say, and but you probably are because you're a double tourist, but that's okay. I'm kind of, I'm kind of OCD kind of anal. Yeah. But, but consistent and, and you know, come on. Yeah. Exactly. I think, I think my ADHD and my OCD cancel each other out. So that's how that works. You know, math wise. But, you know, you did mention doing internal family systems. And I feel like the connection in terms of being able to kind of access those memories is so powerful, right? I feel the reason that I think your book is so vivid, probably is because you do that work. Could you speak to that a little bit and tell us about internal family systems? Yes. So I knew I had some trash still in the trash can, you know, we can talk about that metaphor in a little bit. And so I started working with this like coach, I jokingly say she was like a witch. She was like unbelievable. Like, it was like full witchcraft, which she could get out of me in a very coachy style. And she did internal family systems. And I really found myself sitting with 16 year old Tracy a lot and really seeing everything from her eyes and really getting in touch with that. And and when I when I look back at the book, I really do feel like it was almost like 16 year old me wrote the book. Like she had to say her piece and her trauma. And it was there and I didn't know why I had to write the book. I just had to write it. And I didn't know what I was going to do with it. I didn't know what was going to happen. I just was like I have to do this. And I did it. It was not easy. Actually writing it was beautiful writing it was wonderful. Because like maybe it was just like a vomit, like a purge. And then but then of course as, you know, like the editing and the formatting and all the crappy things that go along with publishing. But yeah, internal family systems was the deepest form of therapy. I outside of like doing some really good psychoanalytic work when I was like before I met my husband was absolutely unbelievable. I I will speak so highly of internal family systems for anyone. If you want to like get to work and like cut the bullshit, go find a good person in internal family systems. Yes. And in fact, I remember in my early 30s, I started doing internal family systems with a therapist in New York. And I was like, what the fuck is this sorcery? Like it's crazy, right? It is sorcery. It is absolute. And like you come out of it. Like I did a lot of like closing my eyes, kind of like meditative state, like letting my different people parts talk to me. And I would be like, oh my god. Like I'd come out of it and I'd be like, who what was that? Like it was crazy. But then somehow they start to like once they get like a voice and are seen and are heard, it's like they start to bled. You know, and like it's like they just wanted to be heard. Yes. Exactly. I feel like and as a therapist, you'll probably understand what I mean by this. But I feel like internal family systems and EMDR are like BFFs like their besties. Yes. Yeah. Let's let the healing begin. Exactly. So yeah, in terms of the book, we'll go back into that because of course my ADHD is going to take us all over the place as one does, right? One of the things that you as a metaphor that is consistent throughout the book is the trash can. So tell us what the trash can is. So the trash can is a metaphor to describe just all the shit that happens to you. You know, whether it's the choices that you're personally making or a lot of times when you're younger, right? When you're like a teenager or even in your like tens, I don't know it's a call that age, the stuff that's just happening to you that's out of your control, right? That lack of external locust of control, like whatever your parents are doing, whatever your household is like, wherever you're kind of made to go. And these moments and these like little traumas or memories kind of are like, I think of them as like writing down on like a piece of trash and like throwing it in the trash can. And they really build up, I mean in my situation, right, with the alcoholic father and divorce and then a even worse stepfather and all that then losing our home, all of the things, it was like trash, trash, trash, trash, trash. And what got to the point for me was like this trash can was so full, I'm also, you know, 16 years old, my brain is two-thirds developed. It's also the 90s, right? Like early 90s, we didn't talk about these things. We did not. No, we didn't. We didn't have guidance counselors at every corner, like talked, like openly, talked to me, talked to me. So I just didn't know what to do with all of this, these feelings and this trash and this total feeling out of control. And so for me, once I got exposed to alcohol and drugs, the way that I describe it is it did this magical thing, right? It put a lid on the trash can. I was able to kind of just numb out and close the trash can and not see it or smell it or deal with it. And you know what? That honestly, that worked until it stopped working, right? Not the healthiest way to deal with your trash. But I needed something and that that was there and not the best choice, but I'm so grateful that today we have so many more conversations and resources. But I think I still see people doing that. I see people all the time putting the lid on their trash can and not actually dealing with the trash. And I think for me that's the biggest gift of recovery is taking the lid off the trash can, dealing with all of the trash, and continuing to deal with the trash, right? Like, shit still comes up. Life is not perfect. Life is messy. Things hurt. Things happen. And I have learned how to not let the trash build up. And that is the biggest gift of recovery. Yeah. And it's not easy. I mean, I'm thinking about my own trash can. It's sometimes it's scary to take the lid off and look at that because it smells bad. It feels bad. But then what's the result, right? What's the result when you look at the trash? Would you say a freedom, a lightness, being able to take a full breath of air, you know how like, you know how like when you take that like breath in and like that feeling and that's what it feels like. And it is not easy and it is scary. And I think that's why most people don't look at the trash. And my suggestion would be start with smaller pieces of trash, right? I had, you know, I had a couple pieces of trash in my trash can that I don't think I really looked at until probably like four or five years into recovery. Like I was like, nope, nope, that's guys stay in there, you know, nope, not ready. And so it's not something that happened overnight. This isn't something at like six months of recovery. I was like, and I'm all better. No, it's years. And then secret pieces of trash build up. Like I had, you know, the reason that I met that, that coach and we worked on internal family systems is like, I saw this piece of trash that I was like, wow, I really have not addressed that. And this, I was like 27 years sober when that happened, 26 years sober. So there's, it can hide, right? And but the point is is that you do the best you can on a regular basis to deal with things in the moment, share your feelings, address them. And then this is the thing that I say is, and then move on, right? Do not keep a record of wrongs. And I think that I hate to say women are more likely to do that right. Bring up past our gimmons, bring up past hurts. Move on. Just the decision has been made. The conversation has been had. It's so nice to just close the door on that no more trash. Yeah. And I think also I was just while you were speaking, I was thinking about this analogy. And I think one of the things that we have to be super honest with ourselves about is there will always be trash, right? So even if you take the, you have to continually take the trash out, which IE is like going to therapy or like, you know, being real with your friends, that sort of thing. And I think it's, it's easy, you know, from I love this metaphor, I'm getting deep into it. But it's, it's easy to like ignore the trash and be like, I don't want to take it out. But then the result is you feel shitty. You do, because as you said, it's always continually happening. So then what happens is it builds up. And that's when you make, in my opinion, in my professional, I'm personal opinion, really bad decisions, right? Because then you're like, Oh my God, I don't know what to do. There's just so much stuff there. And then you start to make those choices to numb out or run or hide or, you know, push people away or whatever, because it's just too much. This might have to be a two part podcast. I'm just sad. But I was going to say one of the things that you say in the book, which is like an AA saying is make their next right decision. And that is very much like a big book thing. And it's funny, because I have a friend and recovery who just talked to me about that. He was like very early in recovery. And he's saying like, all I have to do is make the right next right choice. And it, it's so simple, but so true. Right? Yes. Yeah. Like when you were, when you were a teenager and you talk about, and again, I'm jumping around, but you're with Al and I can't remember the other. Jim Allen. Yeah. And you're being very ornery in this group. And you know, what, what clicked for you when you finally realized like, I have to stop like resisting? Yes. So I think I was lucky that when I went into that, that was my second rehab, because why just have one, you know what I mean? Listen, if you're going to do it, you might as well do it all the time. Yeah. Come on. Exactly. First one never works. I know. Exactly. So it's like failing the road test. You know what I mean? Like, like, like, do it again. Just, yeah, just to make sure. So this is in my second rehab. And at this point, I don't want to ruin, I don't want to ruin a big moment in the whole. I know that's what, see that sorry to interject. I know it's okay. I won't ruin it, but there's a lot of loss. Yeah. I was going to say, and we'll get back to this in a second. This is my ADHD will interrupt you. But it's so hard not to ruin the book because there's so many great things that great, great gems. So we'll I'll try hard to not give. No, no, no, it's it's okay. It's okay. So I'll just say regarding that. Yeah. And I thought of you, I was like, when when we had had some of our conversations before, I was like, Oh, she's going to lose her shit when she gets to that. That was that was wild. Like that, that part was to and just no spoilers, guys, but there's a point in the book where this is Tracy's like second-stint in recovery where you're like, whoa, what the fuck just happened? Like it was a very critical turning point in her getting sober that I think you guys are going to freak out about. So yeah. So it was and it really was like a moment. But I think what opened up at that moment that you're talking about for me was the fact that I had become broken enough. My trash can full enough that I realized my way wasn't working. So I think the first the first aha moment was this isn't working anymore. And I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what I wanted to happen. I didn't know what I was going to do about that. I just knew it's not working anymore, right? It was it worked. It numbed. It kept the lid on until it stopped working. And then the worst part of that is I had added a lot more trash to the trash can. So in trying to avoid the trash, I just added more trash on top of it. And then I went to my second rehab. And for whatever reason, this dynamic of Jim and Al, they just worked together. They were so they were so good, you know, kind of good cop, bad cop. And I had this moment. I think the moment for me was really the reality that I was so deeply angry at my experiences, at my traumas and things that had happened to me that my one counselor Owl was like, you're going to die. Like you're you're and got any got up in your face too. Oh yeah. Oh like it's like so close. He was like spitting on me. You know, like you're screaming at somebody in their face and they're like spitting on you. And it was very it was a moment for me that was like, he's right, right? But I had already softened enough with this idea of like, this isn't working. I don't know what I want to do, but this isn't working to like, okay, it's so not working Tracy, you're going to die. Yeah. And and that for me was that like, I don't want to die. I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to feel so angry. And so I said, okay, what do I have to do? And that's when I became willing, right? And it's like that willingness. It's like that moment where you become willing to say, okay, what now? What is the next right decision? Help me. That's and then I just kind of took off from there. And I changed my focus to like drugs alcohol drugs alcohol, you know, put a little in the trash can to like recovery. What do I have to do next? You know, tell me what how to change. So it was like it was like the pendulum just swung to the other side. Yes. And I think it's so it's funny that I'm like, I'm telling you like, oh, when he was up in your face, because it feels to me like such a visceral moment like as a reader, you feel like you're in that room. And you feel like this person is telling you, you're going to die and you're and as a reader, you're watching it. It feels very like you did that so well. Thank you so much. Thank you. It was I really, as I said, I really put myself back in the situation. You familiar with stranger things, of course, yeah. Okay. So I would exact so eight is so good. So I want all of the close all of the close. Yes. So I would literally do like sensory deprivation and and speak into my phone. So I would literally put like ear plugs in, I covers on and tell the story in present tense to and it would like type it up in my front like my my voice. So so that's why sometimes that you're like, you're talking to me. I literally was talking the stories out. And then of course, I'd put them on paper and then I'd edit them and all that stuff. But so it was what was happening. I was literally in the moment with Al his knee on the floor, reaching forward, grabbed me by the shoulders. He's so angry at me. And he was like the nice cop. So it was very like unlike him to be that pissed off. And I think that also what was like so surprising to see him so angry. Yeah, it's jarring, right? To see to see somebody that's typically very you know, even keel get to that level. So switching to a different topic. Yeah. It I want to go back to your college days. So when I which was one of my favorite memories. I was on a lot of drugs. Yeah, a lot of. Yes, exactly. But it first of all was very nostalgic for me because I think we went to college at a similar time. So the one of the characters that stood out Ashley. And you know, talking about these nostalgic times where you instantly connected with this girl, you know, I think you were like vomiting into a sink. And she was like, one does. I was wondering if I'm coming. Yeah, exactly. And she was like, yeah, let's party. And then, you know, ultimately, well, I want, I want you to talk about Ashley a little bit. And I have follow up questions. So yes, who is Ashley? So Ashley was a girl on my floor. She lived a couple of drawers down from me. And we met again, like the first few days of college when I was, I had already found obviously some people to get me some stuff. And I was vomiting in the sink in the bathroom. And she was like, nice, you're my people. And there's something I hate to say this. But there's something about like, I don't know if it's like a drug addict alcoholic thing or it's just a crazy person thing where you can just like you find your people. And I mean this with all respect, but like we are, we are. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, just like you're my people. Yeah, Ashley was my people and not in a healthy way. But, but we also bonded in terms of our personalities and her laughter and her music. So it wasn't just about getting fucked up all the time. It was she was genuinely like just this person that I immediately connected with and you know, and I genuinely have tried to find her like for years. I mean, I've done the whole Facebook thing. I've like gone online and paid like a service to like find me all the addresses and phone numbers that might be related to her. I hate to say it. The only thing I have in check is obituaries. And I did I loved her so much despite us having a very kind of insane relationship. So much that my daughter's name is Ashley. And so that was like the one name in the book that I really couldn't change. I was like it actually has to be in the book and I just thought that she doesn't get pissed that I like wrote this. But I can't find her. So I couldn't ask her. Well, that was that was my follow up question is I was going to say since writing the book have you found her. So you know, and you haven't. And that was what I was rooting for the whole time. I was like I want her to find Ashley because Ashley is so significant to you. Do you still have that tray that you all were using drugs on. Yeah, I can literally I could literally leave and go get it and show to you right now. Literally still have it and it's like you can see the little like slice marks on it from like probably cutting lines and like is very bad very bad behavior. But there's something and if you can still see her last name written in it. And so in recovery, you know, there's this people places things right get rid of all the people that it's like you're reading my mind that was going to be my next question. So there were certain things I really did purge 90% of my things, but there were certain things that I was like I can't have this as part of my life now, but there's something. And I was really personal that I also can't get rid of this and so I kind of put all those things that I were afraid would be a trigger or a problem in a box. And I kind of put them in like my mom's attic type of thing and and was like maybe I can come back to these one day without a trigger. And I could you know, I mean a period of time later, I mean I still have these amazing like vintage grateful dead T shirts, you know and jeans with resin stains on them and I can laugh at that now that's not something I recommend for somebody new and recovery don't do that. But I've had a lot of years behind me now that I can kind of look at them and be like you're an idiot and you know I'm glad I'm not there anymore I'm glad that I survived it and so yeah the tray is one of those things so when I see my kids sometimes like eating like a lunch or whatever watching TV with the tray I'm always like, you know, mommy did a lot of things with that tray. The tray has been reborn into a happy trade totally and I still have her her turtle necklace. I still have you know there's a picture of us together like our faces smushed together smiling that I keep literally next to my bed like it's in my drawer. And for whatever reason there was just a bond that I can't quite explain that happened for us and and I loved her name and I think I just loved her laughter her her laugh was just so deep and beautiful and I don't know there's something about that that I I loved and I named my daughter Ashley and she still has she's the same but they almost look alike which is creepy like if you were to look at Ashley from college and my Ashley they look a lot alike and they have the same deep hilarious laugh and I don't know. I love that universe is weird universe is weird universe is weird do we know Ashley is astrological sign. I don't the Ashley from college yeah yeah I don't I'd have to I'd have to go back into my deprivation tank and like think about when was her birthday when was her birthday. Ashley if you're listening to this we really want to find you so just I do I really do I just you know it's just there's a deepness and I miss I don't I just would love to see her. I know now I know I have a personal vested interest in this after reading the know you know you're I have a lot of people that are like can we start like a hashtag find Ashley like let's do it let's do it come on let's take to like take to the circles I will be the vice president. Like obviously you're the president I'm I keep opening my phone because I have a list on here of things to ask you so exciting so you talk a lot about hookups and drugs right. So your for your first sort of real boyfriend punch was the the gateway to kind of like hooking up and also getting fucked up so tell us about him. So it's so funny so he recently started following me on like Instagram and I was like oh my god it was just a very surreal moment because he was truly like the first like your first love yeah first love and I and you know we were both teenagers and we made some terrible decisions as teenagers do. And the other thing is that I don't he may not have had the like the biological component of addiction for me I had tried alcohol here and there didn't I mean I I liked it but I didn't love it because it just tastes like shit to me but once I tried weed you know once I was exposed to that for me my biology with my father being an alcoholic his mom being an alcohol you know it's just in our families and our blood. I just mean it was right this is it this is it and that for me was this is going to numb me out and I want that so badly so he exposed me to that somebody else would have so it's not like a him thing it was just like you happen to be there and and then when we broke up which was devastating. I was like oh my god I'm going to have to find my own sources because now I really like this stuff and I was exposed to more and more things you know like damn it I know I'm going to find my own dealers yeah so yeah right and that's what I did I had to like work it and I was lucky that I was kind of cute and I knew how to play the game I learned really quick how to manipulate and to see. And to see and steal and you know I became very very good at that to feed my addiction yeah it's it's I and I was also thinking while reading this you know it's not just alcohol and drugs there's all kinds of addictions for me it's like compulsive spending is an issue and I used to think in my head I'm like well you know my mom was an alcoholic my mom had eating disorder issues and I'm like I'm like I'm not going to be a good guy. I'm like I don't have anything why did I not fall into being an addict I'm like nope you have this other thing yeah yeah and it really it is it can be it can come out in multiple ways you know whatever whatever your thing is and I think we all have a thing if we're really being honest you know there's always a maybe some more than others you know yeah maybe some people don't even rehab for their things or let alone to but I think we all have these things and I think for people that have a lot of things and I think for people that have a lot of things that I think are going to be a lot of things. I think for people that have that genetic component which I really believe is a real thing you just have to be much more aware of it and so that's been an interesting feature as being a mother right to two girls teenagers and having those conversations about you know I don't know you my my husband is not does not have addiction in his family whatsoever but I don't know maybe you got the little a versus the big. You just you never know yeah I wrote this down and I think you will appreciate it crack is whack but also not whack and so you say as an aside in the book you're like yeah I had done crack and unfortunately I did kind of like it yes yes and I think that so and this is this is an important thing when I talk to teenagers is I I am completely honest about my experiences on drugs what certain drugs look like feel like because why are we lying to them and please don't like and I'd rather them hear the truth than Google it or God forbid one experience it for themselves so I don't know why we're not being just more honest with and we know I'm just giving our teens the credit that they deserve they're smarter than we think they are anyway that's a side note I loved crack. and I also knew by my reaction to loving it that much that it was gonna take me out. Like there was this like, there's like one brain cell that was like, this is a problem. You probably shouldn't do this. And so I was able to stop pretty quickly because I knew it was gonna take me out. Yeah, and other people are not so lucky. So it's amazing to see you. So it's amazing that you were able to have that experience and still walk away. Well, I think it was all part of the game. I knew that I wouldn't be able to play the game on crack because I was so invested and so out of control that that was gonna mess up my game. And I wouldn't be able to do anything else. I knew that that was gonna ruin all the other stuff for me. Like this, again, the one working brain cell. That was like just so you know. Yeah, no exactly. The other thing I wanted to talk about was the fact that you got sober when you were 20, is that correct? Not well, just before I was trying to get 19. 19. Yeah. That to me was, seems unusual. I mean, I don't know what in terms of statistics but it feels unusual to me as somebody that has active alcoholics in my life, unfortunately. And I remember in the book, it's so hard to not reveal things. But I remember in the book when you say to the older people in AA, like I don't feel like I fit in here. Like I'm young, right? And then somebody says to you, you're not that special. Yes, yes. So there's a pamphlet. So yes, so I was like during a meeting and I was young. I mean, there were very few young people in AA. And AA just alcoholics anonymous is where I found my home in terms of recovery. For me, it was, I still go to AA meetings. I really do like it. But there's lots of different ways for people to get sober. I was like to say that this really was effective for me and millions of other people. And I was the only, I was genuinely like the youngest person there by at least like 15 to 20 years. And I remember sharing and being like, I'm really young. I just don't know if this is my place. I don't know how I fit in here. I just feel different. And after the meeting, this one guy walked over to the table where they have like all these pamphlets and books and AA literature and stuff like that. And he grabbed a pamphlet and he handed it to me. And he goes, I think this is for you. And the pamphlet said, you think you're different. It's just like the funniest shit ever. I was like that. Maybe so. I was like, that's amazing. I love that. I was like, I mean, so I love them. I mean, really, because it was kind of like a slap on the face. Like, you're not bitch. Bitch. You know, you're supposed to, you're not sitting in this chair by accident. You know, like you didn't, you didn't get brought into the room. Because you were winning. Yeah. You weren't winning. Exactly. You're not that, you're not that awesome. Yeah, you're not awesome. You're not that different. I remember the other guy, I don't know if I wrote this part in the book, but I remember one of these guys, older guy, kind of almost annoyed that I was there as so young. And I remember him coming over to me once he goes, I spilled more beer than you drank. Oh, my God. But that would say I wrote that. So we are almost out of time, but there's one more thing I wanted to ask you. And I think this is actually extremely important. You talk about radical honesty. And, you know, one of the things that I think is difficult for people in general is to be authentically honest because of the fear of like, oh, what if I'm judged or, you know, rejection sensitivity and all these things. And because I was thinking about it, it's very interesting. And I will be very radically honest with you. Yesterday I had therapy. And I said to my therapist, I keep lying at work. And the reason I keep lying is because I'm afraid I'll get in trouble. And it's like there's no, there's no like moment. It's just I just lie because I'm like, I will get in trouble because I didn't do this or like I forgot to whatever it is. And I think that it's kind of a natural reaction if you feel cornered to lie, right? How do you embrace radical honesty like when you feel like I don't want to tell the truth? Like how do you, how do you get over that hurdle? One word, practice. You just like, it's like a muscle. Really, like if you think about like working out, you know, and and that first run sucks. And that second run also sucks, but sucks a little less and et cetera, et cetera, right? And then you can lift your lifting weights and then you can lift heavier weights and heavier weights. It's really being in that moment and being like, this is going to suck. And this is really scary. And I'm going to, I'm going to do it anyway. And and then like take a take a minute to recover from that. Like sometimes like if it's if that radical honesty or if that moment of telling the truth that work is so scary, pick the least scary truth to tell. And see what happens and whatever we think is going to happen is almost always way worse than what is actually going to happen, right? Like the stories that, you know, I certainly build up in my head. And it's really about about practice, practicing it. And then you. You just get better at it and you get more comfortable and people. I think really appreciate that ownership. Like I would rather have somebody say to me, hey, listen, I didn't do this. I don't have an excuse. I'm going to get it to tomorrow. And like I apologize. Like, okay. Right? Yes. And actually, so I'll give you two instances that you'll probably find interesting. So the first one was there's a student that asked to go visit his old teacher, right? And then the teacher that I was with was like, did you check with this teacher before you sent him? And I immediately lied. I was like, yes, absolutely. And then, but then I said to myself, no, you know what? I'm going to tell the truth. And so I said to her, I was like, actually, sorry, I didn't. And it was hard to do that. But I was like, I don't want to lie, right? It feels, it feels, there's a slimy feeling. It feels gross. It's gross. And then the second instance was I was, I actually flaked out and I left the classroom like this. I'm a pair of right? And so the teacher was like, watch the class. And then I spaced out and my student like needed something and we left together. And the principal was like, you left the classroom and I was like, oh, fuck, I have no excuse, right? I'm caught. And I said, I did it. It's, you know, this is why, because you know, my student needed something. It's not an excuse, but it's an explanation. That's fair. That's fair. Right. And these are all like learning opportunities. And I think that that's, you know, and I hate that. I remember somebody gave me that sticker like early in recovery, like six months in. And it was like a bumper sticker and it said, oh, no, not another learning opportunity. And it was like, that is what everything feels like. But like, even when you like grow up, there are still tons of learning opportunities. And I think that that was great, right? It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation. And we're back. So we're back after some technological fun times. Yes. So we were talking about honesty. So yes, I think that I mean, my theory about why people don't tell the truth is, is like primarily fear. Like fear of rejection. Why do you think people don't tell the truth? I think, yeah, no, I think it's definitely fear of rejection. I think it's, it's wanting to like save face, you know, especially in this time where everything is filtered. People want to like put on the best filter. And, you know, that's exhausting. Lying is exhausting. And I just feel like it chips, chips something away from your soul. I am a terrible liar, but that's because I've practiced so much. Now, I do have to pause sometimes and think about how I want to say things. Because I am a real shoot from the hip kind of person. And I have to be aware of my audience, like who am I saying this to, right? Like, like both of my daughters are very different personalities. One can kind of like take the hit a little bit more like, okay, got it. Thanks. Yep. I got it. And the other one you have to like, how do I, how do I say this statement in a way that she'll hear it. So I think that the other thing I think that people need to be aware of is, and I wrote about this in the book. It's a chapter called Nobody cares. And that's a good thing. Everybody is so worried about their filter and how they're being perceived and what they're wearing and what they're saying and them, them, them, them. They really do not care about you. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't mean that in like a, a negative way. If anything, I think that should be a very freeing perspective. In that they're not going home thinking about you, they're not going home talking about you, they're not going home. Whatever, worrying about what you wore, what you said or what you didn't say. So like, just be yourself. You, you and, and let the people that love you embrace you for you. And it also just feels really good to take off the filter and, and. be honest and accept the responsibility of whatever that honesty brings. That's the challenge and I think for me personally it's like, first of all, I'm sorry, my brain just glitched because I was thinking about how people say like the kids are like TBA, you're like to be honest and I'm like, "What the fuck see you were lying before?" I know. Like why do you have to preface it like that? Shit. But um. I know, just be honest. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to, there's no like why, just why. But I think the reason that I sometimes tell a white lie at work or whatever the case may be, because I don't do that in like real life. That's the weird thing. It's only like a professional thing, which is so unprofessional to lie. But in any case, I think it is because of like fear of getting fired. Or you know what I mean? Think like consequence-related things. Yeah. So like in real life, I feel like I've learned like whatever. I guess you don't like me. It's fine. And it sucks because the people please are in me is like still there, right? But how. So I guess my question is, you know, coming from that addict perspective of like manipulating and lying and all that stuff. Like did you ever. Were you ever scared of the consequence of telling the truth? Well, definitely during my addiction, oh for shh, like I could never tell the truth. I had to hide everything from. And then like, not only from like my family, but then I had two groups of friends, right? I actually had my real friends who were people that cared about me, who knew me, pre-drugs, right? Pre-drug addict. And then I had my drug addict friends. And it was like I was. So I was manipulating my school, my home, my real friends, and my drug addict friends. So I was always playing a game with everybody to get whatever I wanted. And it's. I said it was exhausting. It was absolutely exhausting. And I was terrified that they were going to figure me out, right? Like find out who I was and what I was doing and that everything was really, really, really bad. I had to hide that from everyone. So I was terrified. But then when I got sober, it was like this radical honesty was this way of, again, like going through the trash and like that relief and that taking a deep breath and that like, just feeling your shoulders relax and not hiding even all the ugly stuff. And I think that the funny thing is like when I met my husband, I mean, he was definitely like, what are you? Like you are so blunt. Like you are so like like he said something and I was like, well, that's your problem. I don't give a shit. And he was like, well, yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you, it makes radical honesty makes for a great marriage because nothing is ever brewing below the surface. You see those, you know, they don't talk about something or they don't address something or they're angry, but they don't say it or they bring up, again, bring up the record of wrongs. Radical honesty in a marriage in my relationship with my kids, it's awesome because there's just nothing, there's just, you don't let the trash build up. And it is scary. I promise, it's like you've just got to practice it. And it's going to suck and then it's going to suck a little less and then it's going to suck a little less. And then it becomes habit, you know, you just, that's what you know to do. So is there in your sober life now, because in the addict life, you know, you were playing this game, you were like, I'm so afraid of these consequences. Do you ever experience that fear being sober of like, if I say this, what will happen, I'm, you know, or do you just say it? I really just say it because if something happens, it was meant to happen because I'm telling, because it's the truth. Now, losing your job like fear of getting fired, that's a very real fear. That's a real thing that you do need to like be aware of. I, you know, run my own company and I do my own thing. And so it's one of those things where I, you know, I can't accept those responsibilities. Like I, if somebody doesn't want me to come speak because I'm so honest, I understand. But I'd rather tell them, hey, listen, I'm going to tell these kids the truth. I am going to curse. I'm going to be honest about, you know, whatever questions they ask. And some schools are like, no, thank you. I'm like, I get it. I understand. I mean, it's a shame you're doing your kids a disservice. I know you're just afraid of like getting phone calls from parents, but like you're, it's a shame that like this is what the kids really need to hear and really relate to. But I also am like not going to tell them I speak one way and then go in and like feel like, listen, fuckers, you know, like, what is this coming from? So it's such an interesting question because I haven't, I've just been like so blatantly honest for so long I have to think back. I mean, it wasn't at first. I definitely was like playing a game in early recovery and, and for a period of time. And even in relationships, right, I love it. Chris Rock has such a great line in one of his standup comedies. He said, you don't meet the person. You meet their representative. So true. It's so true. Like who, who do people, who do I want to be or who do I think people want me to be? Like I'm going to be my representative. And then once you drop that, once you're like, I don't have a representative. This is it. Take it or leave it. It is amazing because then you also like, like when I met my husband, it was like take and or leave it. And he was like, okay, I'm like very curious. This is weird. And, and then same with friends, like my friends are my real friends. Like I have real relationships. So I can't recommend it enough and it is scary. It's like anything else. But remember progress, not perfection. You, like you mentioned earlier, you do the best to make the next right decision. And maybe again, you pick your places where you Sarah are like, you know, maybe I can't really tell the truth in this moment. But I can in the next one, right? And then you, it becomes a, you start to, it starts to get easier. Yeah, I think it's a great way to live because I think, you know, it's kind of like when you're in full addiction, you're lying to yourself and you're lying to everyone else. Everything is a lie. Truly. Yeah. It's the antithesis of that. And I think if we all could like, you know, kind of like be okay with being rejected. I think that's the biggest thing is a lot of people are fixated on this like rejection. That's the company, you know? And I think that that, so then I think you're working, you're working two things at the same time, right? You're working on what is my fear of rejection? Where is that coming from? How do I, how do I build up my self-esteem and know that I'm enough? Yep. And believe that and act like that, right? It's one thing, right? Actually, I'm a very big, don't tell me, show me. Yes. Action, action, action. Yep. And, and be working on these things, right? So I think that you need to be doing both. You need to be working on that self-esteem as well as telling the truth to believe that people are still going to respect you and love you and you're human. We're human. We make mistakes. It's just, that's the way it is. Perfect. One of the, I guess, characters, one of the people that you mentioned in the book and I, it's, I actually, I emailed this to you, a field of texting, but we talked about Brian. So is Brian with an eye or with a why? With an eye, the RIA. Okay, good, because I don't trust the why, it's just saying. So tell us about Brian. So Brian is a good friend of mine from my second college. So I kind of failed out of my first one because of drugs and alcohol. And left, there was, it was very messy and you can read more about that and pretty wrecked. And then when I kind of got my shit together, I went to community college to get my grades back up and then ended up going to Villanova University, which is right near my house here, actually, and so I live in the Philadelphia suburbs. Brian was at Villanova and our story actually began at like an 8 a.m. class where I would always sit in the front because I was not hungover. And he would always sit in the back because he was hungover. And he walked into an AA meeting and I remember seeing him and being like, oh my God, is he here for a class? Because there's like classes, you know, in psychology where you'd have to like attend a 12 step meeting just to like get experience, right? And I was like, I, I'm going to have to be honest, right? And just big nope, I'm here because I'm in recovery. Because I totally thought, don't get me wrong. Like I was thinking like, should I just say, oh yeah, no, I'm totally here for like the class meeting also. But then, you know, people would come up to me after the meeting and be like, oh, hey, Tracy. And here, here goes the radical honesty, right? You had an opportunity to tell a white lie. And I just was like, not you. I'm here and this is me. And he was like, well, that really checks out. Like that makes it. Now I see why you are who you are. And what was really amazing was I shared my story with him that I wrote for pretty wrecked. And I sent it to him. I said, can I, one, can I use your name? And two, I just want you to know that I'm sharing this story because I think it's really a meaningful story. And he said, absolutely. And I want you to know that there's another side of the story that you, that you are not aware of. And I said, write it. And he did. And he did. And it was, I did not realize that. I was kind of the, he calls me at the lighthouse. I did not realize that I was his lighthouse in that moment where he really was thinking about suicide. And that's, you know, it's just you never know what that radical honesty and that putting that hand out and being like, yeah, I struggled too, you know, that like you talk often about, you know, right, breaking the stigma. We've all got trash. It's messy. It's hard. Why can't we talk about it? Why aren't we talking about our trash, right? Like I, that's what saved my life in recovery was people talking about their recovery, right? People talking about their, their stories and how they dealt with them and steps that they took and things that worked for them, right? And that's one thing I love about 12 step meetings for me is like the community, right? Like I get to hear from people that went ahead of me, that went before me, that have more time or have more experience in something and I get to learn from them. And so yeah, I just think that that was amazing to, for Brian to share that moment with me. And we're still friends. I mean, I saw him, we went to LA, he lives in LA, we went to LA, I think it was like two summers ago for a trip and we hung out with him while we were there and he and I text regularly. So it's lasting friendships and he's still in recovery all this time later. So that's awesome. Yeah. So when, when you guys read the book, because there's no if, when you read it, you will see a very interesting anecdote from Tracy and then Brian's response. So it's, it's really, I found that to be a very touching, very, it was really sweet that he said, it was really sweet that he was willing to share that side of him as well, because it's, it's very raw, right? That was a, that was a very raw moment that he shared and I was, I appreciated it so much. And I, again, I didn't even know that side of the story until he shared it with me. No, it was actually, it was cool. I'm really glad that that we decided to do that and that he agreed to do that for the book. 100, 100%. So the last thing I wanted to, to talk about this is a sad one, but you mentioned Jamie and Jamie is somebody who attended AA and she was pregnant. So tell us about Jamie. Yes. So she, we met, she was a young person. So it was funny because after a period of time, maybe a few months, three months, six months, I started to meet some other young people. I mean, there was a handful of us. I want to say like less than 10 people that were like, we'll say 25 and younger and we all start kind of hanging out together. And Jamie came in to recovery and she was pregnant. She came into recovery because she got pregnant when she was on drugs and when she, I think she was taking heroin and she was like, I can't take heroin and be pregnant. So kudos to her and make a long story short, she gave birth to her son and she, she would have moments of time where she would relax. Relax is a real thing in recovery. And I'm very lucky that I did not. I think it was just so scary for me because I just didn't know if I'd ever come back in. So I was just so scared to relapse. And there was one time, I'm trying to think of how old her son was. It's a few years old, a couple years old. And she went out one more time, right? Just that there's always one more time, just this time. And she overdosed and she died. And like that was just an insane phone call to get. And you know, she left her son behind. It's just, it's the reality of addiction. It's yeah, it's, it's, it's so heartbreaking. And as for as many stories as there are heartbreaking, there are, you know, these kind of uplifting ones. And I think, you know, you are for, but I guess the success story, right? Like you, you know, you, you've worked really hard. And I think one of, one of the takeaways to you from the book that I really enjoyed is that you were like, yeah, I have these degrees. And what, and what of it? I'm, you know, like I worked really hard to get them. And I think it's really important, especially as women, for us to be proud of our accomplishments. Completely. Yeah, I worked my ass off. Yep. I worked my ass off for my recovery. I worked my ass off for my, you know, my college degree, my master's degree. I worked full time while I was in college, you know, to pay, to help pay for college. So it was, you know, I did not really get a college experience. I, I like to say that when my husband, he got his MBA, I felt like that was my college experience that I got to like go to like the theme parties and the college stuff. And that was like my experience. But I really didn't have a college experience, mostly also because I had to really keep my head down, right? I wasn't going to fraternity parties. I wasn't doing stuff like that. And I worked hard for it, but it really, like it pays off, right? I mean, I love all things James clear. I could just quote him, like my whole language could be just James clear quotes. And one of his quotes is, I'm going to try to get it right. So it's like the, your, it is your commitment to the process that will determine your progress. Oh, I like that. Yes. It is your commitment to the process that will determine your progress. And it really is, it's just all those little things. It's make the next right decision. It's little by little becomes a lot. I mean, I didn't just like arrive here. Like I started at one day sober and 10 days sober and 30 days sober and, you know, I mean, nine months, like I, and now it's over 30 years, which I still like can't believe that. That's insane. It's so crazy, right? It is. Here's like kind of a scary question. What would you do if you discovered one of your kids was using drugs? It's a great question. I am a true believer in choice. And what I would do is I'd say, here's what we know. Here are the facts. Here are my concerns. I can't tell you no. I'm not going to tell you yes. And you're going to need to make a choice of which direction you want your life to go in. Because I will tell you right now, I made those choices. I know what direction my life went in. And climbing out of that hole is real hard. I mean, really hard to start over. So you need to choose which what life you want for yourself. And I really think, I mean, I'm not, because I, there's nothing I can do. I can't control it, right? Like I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I can't cure it. All I can do is really give the information and say, come down to choice. And when I talk to teenagers, I use this analogy yellow light. I say, listen, I'm not going to say no, because that makes everything really sexy, right? Like saying, no, I was like, if you told me no as a teenager, I'd be like, well, I'm fucking doing that today. You know, like, yes. I'm not going to say yes, because it's illegal. And you shouldn't, right? So I just say, so I say yellow light. This is all I'm asking. I'm asking for a three second pause to think, is this decision going to move me closer to what I want, clover closer to my hopes, my dreams, my expectations for what I think my life is going to be or is this going to move me farther away? So I'm asking for three seconds of a yellow light just pause. And the hope is that you get more decisions right than wrong. And it works. You know, this idea of yellow light, I actually was hanging out with my daughter and her friends a couple weeks ago. And something came up and one of her friends literally said to me, like yellow light. I was like, oh my God. Listen, yes, I love yellow light. I'm going to start using yellow light when I want to make an impulsive choice. Just yellow light. Just pause, right? Does, you don't need to get every decision right. That's impossible. We're human. You just need to get more right than wrong, right? And then it's like a muscle. It's practice. The more decisions you get, right, the better it feels, the more you want that. Did you, did you come up with yellow light? I did. I love it. I love it so much. I have a few different metaphors because I'm a very visual person. So I can like see yellow light in my head and I'm hoping that like teenagers can really see this idea of yellow light. It also gives them choice, right? And if you talk kids yes or no, I mean, I know for me, I wanted to break out of that, right? Well, I'm going to do the opposite of whatever you say because I know better. No, exactly. Choice, choice is so important. I think really for anybody. But especially for teenagers. So I love trash can trash cans a metaphor that they really can see and understand and I start all of my talks by talking about trash can. And I also start all of my talks with teenagers letting them know how sorry I am. And also like, I mean, sometimes I get like emotional saying it and I say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that there's so much trash in there that is not your fault. You know, it is not like almost like good will hunting, right? It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. And I think they just need to hear that. Well, I'm trying to think of who said it best. There's somebody I know that really talked deeply about this, but this idea of fault versus responsibility. They are two different things. And I know for me, once I realized it wasn't my fault, all these things, my father, my stepfather, all this stuff, wasn't my fault, but it was my responsibility to process and to deal with. And I did a really bad job of that early on by turning to drugs and alcohol, right? Putting the lid on the trash can. And then once I decided to take responsibility, not except fault, wasn't my fault, but I'm going to have to deal with it. And I think when you put it like that and just take the fault out of things, it takes the sting away a little bit. And so I do that for teenagers. So yeah, we do yellow light trash can. And then the other analogy I use is. is to be a nerd, N-E-R-D, which means to make the next right decision. So any-- For next r, for right, yeah, be a nerd, be a nerd, make the next right decision. Yeah, that's a good one. It's an easy one to remember. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. This was so much fun. I had so much fun. I had such a great time speaking with you. Yeah. I'm so glad you liked Pretty Racked. It's a piece of my soul. So when people say that, it just brings me such joy. So I'm going to hear me practicing radical honesty, ready? To part. To it. So your publicist sent me the book, right? And I was like, I got to read this. And then I lost it. And then she emailed me. And she's like, did you read it? And I was like, fuck. And I'm like, I bet I would like it. And so then I was like, yeah, connect me with Tracy. I love to interview her on my podcast. And then we connected. And I was like, wait a second. Light bulb moment. This must be an audiobook, right? And I was like, I can get down with audiobooks. And so then we started talking. And I was like, do you have the whatever we start? And I was like, oh, shit, I have Spotify. So I started listening to it on Spotify. And I was like, yay, it doesn't matter that my ADHD self-loss the book, because I still read it. Yay. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, it's available. As you said on Amazon, I think it's also available through other like Barnes and Noble target like other places as well. But yeah, it's available for paperback, hardcover. I recommend hardcover for libraries. The libraries tend to get the hardcover because it lasts longer. Hardcover, like, why did anybody make paperback books? Let's just be honest. Hardcover is the way to go. They really do get ruined. So yeah, for library school libraries and for regular libraries, I live at my local library from being us. And then ebook, Kindle, and then audio book as well, available on Spotify but other platforms. Yeah, so you can get it on, I completely just like diminished all paperback books. So no, no, you can-- yes, you can find pretty racked on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold. We should all be reading books instead of looking at our phones. Let's just get back into like the actual paper. Things come from trees. We like trees. So thank you so much again. And where can we find you online? So tracyviolaauthor.com or prettyrec.com, I think if you go to PrettyRec, that takes you to my website. And then I'm also on Instagram and Facebook at tracyviolaauthor. So my name, TRACY, the IOLA, AUTHOR. Although side note, I am terrible about posting on social media. So just up-- you'll hear from me occasionally, but I'm not a great social media person. Probably healthier for your whole well-being, you know? It really is. I tried early on when the book was first published. And they were like, you have to do social media. My PR person was like, you have to do social media. And I think I got about a year in. And I was like, my soul hurts. I can't. And she was like, well, you have to. And I was like, well, I'm not. So-- You know what I'm saying? Listen, I was completely like a social media addict for some time. Because I think we didn't have it growing up. So it was so kind of like, oh, look at this new thing. And I'm stuck breastfeeding my baby at 3am and have no one to talk to. So I'm just going to look at some stuff. But now I'm just there for the cat pictures. Totally. And yeah, we both have cats. Do we both have tuxedo cats? Yes. I have lucky to tuxedo cats. Oh my god. Yes, I'm all about the tuxedo. I know. She's great. She's got such personality. Yeah, they really do. - Yeah, thank you so much, Tracey. I'm just gonna say. - Thank you so much, sir. - Yes.