Speaker 1President Zelensky, how are you doing?
Speaker 2Well, it's hard. I'll be honest, I don't sleep. It's a huge, terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Speaker 1I can see the tears in your eyes.
Speaker 2Yeah. The war started February 24th of 22. I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion. I was with my family, told my wife to the kids, the war has started. I love you, I'll call you. And ran out.
Speaker 1Satellite imagery captured a massive 64-kilometer-long Russian military convoy leaving to Kiev.
Speaker 2And just imagine, 200,000 people are coming at you. It's simply impossible to defend. Missiles were raining down on your head. Those were absolutely horrifying moments. And I was in the bunker, built right inside my office. Biden called me, we are ready to help you. What did you say to Biden? I need ammunition, not a ride. They expected people to run and me. I couldn't abandon the people. And then people showed up as volunteers. And our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. Day after day, we pushed back harder.
Speaker 1What was your hardest day through the last four years?
Speaker 2We liberated Bucha. I went there. Dead bodies lying everywhere. Kids, adults, elderly people. Chopped meat. Butchered them. Hands tied, tortured, and then buried in pits. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the U.S. or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, how do you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise, well, you can't just forgive everything like that.
Speaker 1Is there a realistic path to the end of this war? President Zelenskyy, sometimes the question I'm about to ask you, we answer it flippantly when people ask. But I really want you to answer it in the fullest, honest context you possibly can. How are you doing? Well, it's hard.
Speaker 2Hard because it's like I'm surviving along with my country and with the people. And it's like really a question like, will tomorrow come or not? And the answer to that is, yes, it will. You can't answer it any other way because I am, that means my family, my relatives, my country. I'm an inseparable part of it. And so how do I feel? Hard, but with understanding the difficult reality, with optimism, because I still believe good wins. I believe in that, truly.
Speaker 1Is it a bit of a roller coaster on a human level for you? Are there days where there's more hope and days where there's less hope?
Speaker 2You can't live without hope. I understand sometimes inside, you know, you can be shattered inside, especially during wartime, especially families, who, you know, lose someone close in their family, a child, God forbid, or a wife, a husband, a mother. That is, it's just an internal breakdown. It's very hard. And it's much harder for them, I believe. Just so much harder than it is for me with all these challenges.
Speaker 1The weight of all of this sits often on your shoulders. And when someone does lose a child or a loved one or a wife or a sister or a daughter, I imagine, as I've seen from, you know, some of these photos I have here of you, I mean, this photo in particular stands out to me.
Speaker 2Oh, that's a terrible story. It's just a terrible story. That was, that's when a missile hit a playground. And the missile speed was such that the siren didn't help at all. So it was a matter of seconds. And the missile struck and children were killed. And both children were killed there, mostly. And adults, just adults, right there. A couple, I remember, they were just out walking, passing by. And because they were walking by and were killed. Parents, you know, like right on this side, on this side. There are homes too. And parents there, they, some of them saw through the window. Do you understand what it's like to see through a window one of your children just torn apart? And toys, just such a, during such a tragedy, it's a tradition to bring flowers for adults and toys for children. I went there. It's pain, I'll say it again, my pain can't, it's not even 10% of the parents' pain. It's terrifying. Just terrifying. A missile that cut short the life of a child who had seen nothing yet. Imagine, by the way. And there are children, a lot of them, among the fallen as well, who never lived in peace. I mean, we lived in a different time. We understand what it's like to live when, there are no sirens, no shelling and so on. But there are kids, every night they go down to the bomb shelter when the alarm goes off and the alarm goes off every night, then they come back up and some of them have died. And just imagine, there are children who never knew what peace was. That's horrifying. Absolutely.
Speaker 1You said at the start of this invasion, this war, that you weren't sleeping. You said early in this invasion, you said you've not earned the right to sleep and I'm really curious about the sort of human toll that all of this has taken on you over the last four or five years, because it never stops, it never ends. And you are a human being, just like all the rest of us. You have a family, you have kids, but you have the burden of this kind of horrific incident taking place in your country all the time. What is the sort of human burden there? And are you sleeping?
Speaker 2I'm a responsible person. I have different traits, good ones, not so good ones. Like every person, nobody's perfect. Yeah. And every night I speak with our air defense operators, with our guys who run the air defense. Every night we talk. Well, yeah, thanks to modern technology, it's very easy. And we text back and forth what's needed right now. Let's pull some over from another region. So it's an active defense. It's a big discussion, which obviously, well, doesn't let you sleep. Yeah. You know, getting eight hours of sleep like that is something totally new to me during these years, almost five years of war. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining at all. And that's how I live. The burden, the strongest emotion, I once answered this honestly. There's a moment when I present awards. And there's this moment when I award, and personally, the hero of Ukraine, it's the highest honor. When I present this award to parents who lost a child, yeah, a boy or a girl, soldiers. That feeling, you know, well, how I cease to exist in that moment. I'm just, well, it's not pain. It's something terrible. I look at these people. I look at their eyes, at what they say. Many of them say something. And there are people who just ask for a hug. Imagine you give an award to a father whose very strong hand you can feel. He's, you know, a strong man. You feel his strong hand, and he just quietly says to you, can we hug? So they, well, you know, they're gone. Gone as people anymore. Well, for a time. Then strong people try to survive. And these moments, on the one hand, I respect them. I do it. But on the other hand, it's hard to bear. I understand them. And it's a huge, terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone. What these parents feel, having lost a child, a soldier. These parents didn't lose a child on a playground. They lost a soldier. They knew that could happen. But knowing and losing are completely different things.
Speaker 1I can see the tears in your eyes as you describe this.
Speaker 3I'm a human being.
Speaker 2I'm not ashamed to be who I am. I'm not the strongest man in the world. I try to set an example,
Speaker 3but I'm definitely not a perfect person.
Speaker 1Yeah. Is there anything that you do? Because this is it. This is a lot to deal with. You know, I, I hear you recounting the stories of dealing with these parents. Is there anything. that you you do to take care of yourself
Speaker 3what is it that keeps you strong my kids my kids i i just you know i have
Speaker 2to be an example i told myself maybe i don't have to but that's what i told myself i have to set an example for my kids this is the way that is not and you have to set an example be strong be as brave as possible but don't don't hide the pain if you have it you shouldn't say i don't feel anything because human beings by nature they're alive and that's their weakness but it's also where a person's strength lies that really is where our strength is and so my kids keep me grounded very much so i want to set an example i want them to be proud of me
Speaker 1we'll talk about that later but there's um there's one big outstanding question which is who is president zielinski and i've been through hundreds and hundreds of photos and stories from your childhood i've got some some wonderful photos here of your earliest uh days and yeah and this is a beautiful one if your wonderful mother is
Speaker 3wrong that's my mom yeah mom was very beautiful well she still is
Speaker 2but she's gotten older can you take me in
Speaker 1to your earliest context just so i can get a sort of a view of what childhood was like for you what's the context in which you grew up and really i want to understand how that context and early experience fed into the man you are today the perspective you have the values that you cherish i'm from the
Speaker 2generation that straddled uh two uh let's say two different lives meaning i was born in the soviet union when ukraine was part of the soviet union and i grew up in an independent ukraine and i've always said that my kids they're lucky because they were born in an independent country without all these you know shades of gray this is gray that's something else no it's black and white totally clear they're patriots they love their country and their country is ukraine while we were born in the soviet union we were born in the soviet union we were born in the soviet union and you know we were kids from a fairly let's say not i don't want to offend anyone so my dad doesn't get upset well from a regular very ordinary family not not very well off let's put it that way yeah let's put it that way well that's and i think it's totally clear from the photos i was born in krivi rih an academic family in soviet union era ukraine wasn't um not not like you know in europe or in the united states an academic family with everything provided usually our academics didn't make a lot uh of money but again i'm not complaining i respect my father an honest man a professor well values again and again i got an education and i got raised right and my parents love me and i love my family and i love my family i think those three things are enough to be grateful to your parents i'm not sure people find this interesting so let's move on
Speaker 1um when you were a young boy in those photos when you're under the age of 10 had i asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up what what would you have answered
Speaker 2because and to be honest i changed like the wind honestly there was a time when i really wanted to be a diplomat wanted to be a border guard yeah and then uh i went to law school graduated from law faculty and while studying i realized that i was more interested in media so i got out and started working that exact field i
Speaker 1mean at 17 years old you became interested in comedy yeah and you joined a comedy group and you from what i read you you did that up until the age of about 26 years old so you were a comedian you were a comedian you were a comedian you were a comedian up until the age of 26 years old before starting a
Speaker 2media company i yeah but i was more i enjoyed i was a script writer and so sometimes as a writer i also did um a little acting i i enjoyed it yeah until i was 26 and then um at 26 i got my own company there's some
Speaker 1interesting stats i found 28 years old you won ukraine's dancing with the stars yeah yeah so you can dance i think yes i'm not sure that now i can and later you voiced paddington bear in the ukrainian
Speaker 2language film yeah i really really loved i think paddington is a very cool thing really right and for the people i'm not sure all of it is just for kids to be honest but nonetheless that character resonated deeply with me and i i even after i became president the next paddington installment was coming out and all this was before the war and they were sending me signals would you consider voicing another paddington movie i said well i'd really love to but i didn't yeah
Speaker 1no um and then between 34 years old and 37 years old you appeared in a bunch of different feature films and most interestingly you starred as one particular character a school teacher who accidentally becomes president in the satirical tv series called servant of of the people the people i think i have a photo yeah teacher of history you've got to explain the context here because people can't believe that this is true they can't believe that you actually acted as an actor who accidentally becomes president and you must find this bizarre that you then became president because presumably at that time you weren't expecting to become president when you became an actor pretending to be
Speaker 2president absolutely i definitely didn't expect it absolutely and this idea this this idea was about 10 to 12 years old once um this idea came to me and i thought about it i lived with this idea for a long time i love doing that and at some point i was like oh my god it's a great idea and at some point the feeling was that the world is changing ukraine is changing and right now this idea is relevant it will resonate and people will like it what was the idea
Speaker 1when you say the
Speaker 2idea the person from the people without any uh history without any political background becomes
Speaker 3president and that's how it turned out to be honest
Speaker 1so you were playing a character in a tv series called servant of the people and the character was pretending to be the president and you and you realize that actually the idea of there being a sort of servant of the people party or president was probably quite a good idea based on what was going on in ukraine at that time and because of the government instability at the time you actually registered servant of the people as a real political party in ukraine and you were playing a
Speaker 2part of that uh well that sounds basically like a pretty good uh script uh yeah but it wasn't honestly calculated like that uh the series was very popular in parallel there were a few other projects we had a political satire uh project uh it was very popular it was even before that series so i already had my bearings in politics anyway the point was that indeed um i decided to try my hand in this direction i really wanted after the occupation of crimea after the occupation of donbass this whole situation changed us and you and and you started to feel like something something was going wrong here and it's war but there still wasn't wasn't that feeling yet because it wasn't a full-scale war and so i didn't want to we were doing business with belarus and with kazakhstan and with russia as well we had offices and projects that we were filming and so on so life changed i i wanted to drop it all and this this sense of betrayal by russia well all of that happened and that's why and you change this whole period she changed you as well and so it's not like it was some calculated plan the tv show comes out and then a political party i know about that i know about that some people might think that and that's fine that's normal people have their own opinions that's normal it coincided the mood in society coincided with my inner mood and with my determination and desire so it's a coincidence of so it's a coincidence that it was a coincidence that it was a coincidence that it was a coincidence
Speaker 1guys i've got a favor to ask the algorithm if you follow a show will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed so when we have our best episodes on this show the most shared episodes the most rated episodes i would love you to know and the simple way for you to know that is to hit that that follow button. But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. So you talked about how it was really sort of a change in the climate in Ukraine that caused you to move closer to politics, because everything that was going on at the time, Russia invaded Crimea here in 2014, the annexed Crimea. And so four years after this point, you announced that you're going to run for president. Is this really when the war began, in your view? Because there's been lots of people that have posited when the war began. Some people say the war began a thousand years ago. And they talk about the old Crimea and everything that took place there with the Rus. Some people say it began in 2014. And some people say it began in 2022. In your mind, when did the war begin?
Speaker 2I think for many people, that time really is different. But if we take the new Ukraine that regained its independence in 1991, in the 20th century, then I think that in 2014, all of us just couldn't believe it, that this kind of occupation was happening. The war really started with the occupation of Crimea. That's true. It's just that it was slow, that occupation. It didn't look much like a war. Why? Well, because Ukraine wasn't fighting back at that point. Meaning when they occupied Crimea, there were shots fired there, of course. But for a very long time, Russia wouldn't admit these were its people. They looked like regular people. They even called them little green men. That's what they called them. Because you couldn't tell what that uniform was. Meaning these are people carrying some kind of weapons on the peninsula. And the problem was that there were no clear orders from the Ukrainian authorities that you need to defend your land, that someone violated your borders with weapons and is seizing, seizing, gradually seizing Crimea. So it was really that kind of creeping occupation. Looking at that time today, not back in 2014. Not in 2015. But today, you realize that that's when the war really began. Our mistake was not pushing them back. And of course, if there had been an order, an order to defend the country, I'm sure that I think a full scale war in the form it has today wouldn't have happened. Well, at least that's how it seems to me.
Speaker 1Your great grandfather and his grandfather's four brothers were killed by the Nazis and his grandfather was the only brother to survive the war. And I wondered how that experience of having that in your family tree has changed how you think about this moment in time when you're facing a war with Russia. My
Speaker 2grandfather went through World War Two from start to finish. My grandfather, my father's dad. And he was Yeah, from a family where there were several brothers and all of them were killed by the Nazis. I have very few relatives in general, on both sides of my family on my father's and my mother's. Many relatives were killed by the fascists. And that's all. That's why it always sounded so bizarre when Russia accused us Ukraine of supposedly having Nazis. It's bizarre and completely wild. If people all knew even a little bit of history, they would realize that fascists in Ukraine, fascism as such doesn't exist. Why? Because Ukraine understands deep in its roots what it means to be under the fascists. Because during World War Two, Ukraine was occupied 100% completely, completely, totally. Whereas Russia, you Ukraine, Belarus was occupied Ukraine, and Nazi Germany, it lost a huge number of its soldiers who died specifically in Belarus, Ukraine, because we all well, because our countries or our lands, they stood and fought. Russia was not occupied. And that is also very important to understand. That's why all of our people in Ukraine saw it. Well, you know, as barbaric and an outrage when Putin attacked us and said we have fascism, and he's liberating Ukraine from fascists. I mean, it's absurd. We fought against the fascists. We were the ones liberating.
Speaker 1A lot of people don't have the historical context on how this all began. If I was a 16 year old, and I had no understanding of geopolitics, and I asked you, President, I said, Could you explain to me the background context that I need to understand to understand what the hell is going on at the moment? Why? Why are Russians going into Crimea? What is Vladimir Putin's perspective? Why does he think that that's okay? Why does he think that he can invade Ukraine? What is the historical context explained in the simplest terms to a 16 year old? Okay, what the hell is going on here?
Speaker 3And
Speaker 1I'm going to give
Speaker 3you all the time in the world to inform me.
Speaker 2There
Speaker 3was an empire called
Speaker 2the Soviet Union. And that empire, it included a large number of what are now independent states. It's always like that with empires. Without getting into the historical context, everyone will understand this. Empires exist for a while. And then they collapse. Because you can only hold everything together through autocracy, a territory like that so many people through tyranny, through feudalism, through slavery, through certainly not through freedom. Empires don't survive on freedom. And this is very important. Why do empires fall apart? Because people want to be free. Because people compare their lives in an empire with life in other countries, even small ones. They see how things develop there. They see how things develop there, how they live, walk freely, choose any partner they want, whatever hair color you like, music, clothes, and so on. While the Soviet Union, these empires, like everyone always said, the iron curtain. Why an iron curtain? So you wouldn't see what's out there in the West, in Europe, in the United States of America, in Britain, or anywhere in Asia. So people couldn't see. In terms of information, an empire is hold, control everything, right? So a complete information vacuum. There, you don't exist. Nothing exists. No internet, nothing. Television that you run and control, and people get the information. People live like fish in a fish tank. That's all it is. The fish tank can be massive like the Soviet Union, but it's still a fish tank. North Korea is a smaller fish tank, but it's a fish tank. And that's what happened with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union fell apart. Countries were happy. Countries became independent, smaller. Ukraine is one of those countries. And when identity emerges, you have your own language, your own music, your own clothes, and so on. What exists all around the world, it's great. Tourism. You travel to Asia. You travel to Thailand. You travel to Japan. You travel to the United States. Different culture, different music, food, people, and everyone lives freely. And it's really cool to soak in another culture. That's the diversity. Why does an empire fall apart? Because it's made up of these kinds of people, nations, that want to have their own thing. The Soviet Union fell apart, but nostalgia for the Soviet Union stayed with people. Putin was the president of Russia, and he set a goal for himself, and he's a purely Soviet man, a very Soviet man. He was an intelligence officer. He worked in the KGB in Germany and so on. He said, and this is his very first. He said, and this is his very famous phrase, that the greatest collapse of the 20th century in the world was the fall of the Soviet Union. And all of that shows that Russia just wasn't enough for him, and he had the ambition to go back to that, to bring back the empire, to bring back the Soviet Union, because he believes that another major country is to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which one? The United States of America. They're enemies. The Soviet Union and the United States of America, they were allies during World War II. And after that, you know, they're enemies, the Cold War and so on. So it's very simple. Putin wanted to bring back the Soviet Union. And what is the Soviet Union? It is above all Ukraine. Ukraine. It's Ukraine. Ukraine is country number two. called the Soviet Union a forge of talent. in Ukraine there were so many people who later led had that kind of education because there were many scientists many engineers many universities a huge intelligentsia that's what they said that for the Soviet Union Ukraine was the forge of talent in other words in other words many people who came from Ukraine who then ran various institutions ministries in the Soviet Union and so on meaning it's the intellectual part of the Soviet Union Ukraine was always rock the biggest rocket manufacturing was here nuclear weapons which Ukraine handed over a lot of things were made in Ukraine and what's the problem for Russia if Ukraine becomes part of Europe and without the Soviet Union Ukraine started taking gradual steps in the other direction you meaning if Ukraine becomes part of Europe then Russia will collapse it will fall apart there are many different peoples different religions entirely and simply different nations into many different countries and Putin decided to piece this whole empire back together this ambition where do you start piecing it together he started the war in Chechnya he occupied Chechnya a small country that is now part of Russia he destroyed it completely everything that's happening in eastern Ukraine it's the very same commanders military commanders who fought in Chechnya who destroyed Chechnya completely there was nothing left no buildings nothing people were killed killed a huge number of people by the way were killed in Chechnya and he occupied it and then he decided to bring back the empire starting with Ukraine with a free state one that wants to be in the European Union one that is smart intellectual other countries too but here here's what it is well and the start there always has to be a pretext to start an occupation what pretext it's always a pretext the pretext is always language and he starts with Crimea he starts the occupation with Crimea why in Crimea there were a lot of Russian speaking people Russian speaking Ukrainians but to understand this and in Crimea there was deportation there was more than one deportation expulsion of the Tatars in other words Crimea has indigenous peoples and it's a multi-ethnic peninsula but what happened is he started the occupation with Crimea and with Domba with the east why because he divided society unleashed this war based on language because language is always such an issue a painful issue and when you want to divide society it's totally unfair it's totally despicable toward the people you start bringing up the language issue so he brought it up said that I'm protecting Russian speaking people which wasn't true nobody took anything from anyone yeah but it was just easier the East of the country borders with the Russian Federation days
Speaker 1before I think it was the day before Vladimir Putin ordered troops to invade Ukraine he did a statement where he said modern Ukraine was entirely and completely created by Russia more precisely Bolshevik communist Russia this process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution Soviet Ukraine is the result of Bolshevik policy and can rightly be called Vladimir Putin. Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood so he's very much denying that Ukraine is a nation why did he choose to invade February 24th why did he choose then to invade if he had invaded Crimea in 2014 why was in your view that the moment where he decided to cross the border and try and by the looks of it take control of the whole of Ukraine first
Speaker 2of all notice he talks about the Soviet revolution. the revolution of 1917 that's ridiculous to anyone your country's history can't start in 1917 in Ukraine there are churches everyone knows we have very beautiful churches that are a thousand years old Ukrainian churches painted by Ukrainians total master professionals a thousand years old Ukraine is it's the air to keep on Bruce a great state that was very well known. in Europe on the European continent at least with an advanced civilization it really with with its own art with its own traditions and so on Russia wasn't even close to existing Russia came after Ukraine already existed but he cuts all that out starts with the revolution why from the October revolution of 1917 because he's talking about the history of the Soviet Union not about the history of Russia and not about the history of Ukraine. the Soviet Union why because he's signaling to people who are in Russia who honestly the kids they get information in schools and they take it they don't go any deeper he's signaling to them that their life is the Soviet Union and that's where we're heading back to that's what he's doing he started a full scale war the war started 24th 24th of 22. February 24th missile strikes were launched immediately from the territory it was flying from every every side troops were also entering from the territory of Belarus right from here because it's the closest route to the capital they were advancing on Kiev and also came from all directions they the main goal was to to seize the capital of Ukraine that was their main goal naturally they were counting on the tough guys who were both Russian and the separatists already in the occupied in the occupied territory of Donbass why why in February
Speaker 12022 why not later why not sooner why was that the moment what had happened then you know because I part of the reason I asked this question is because President Donald Trump what had happened then you know because I part of the reason I asked this question is because President Donald Trump often blames Joe Biden for being weak and that giving Vladimir Putin an opportunity to invade because he
Speaker 2didn't respect President Biden
Speaker 1that's what's
Speaker 2claimed is there truth in that I'll explain I think that it was a little bit earlier in 21 there was a summit I don't remember when anymore I think I don't remember there was a Biden Putin summit remember that famous summit we didn't we didn't have all the details they came out and started talking about something publicly and so on then rumors started that they discussed the issue of a possible escalation against Ukraine and we kept bringing up this issue over the next few months we kept bringing it up with the Americans and this could really happen and they were saying well it could happen we asked them then please give us what we need to defend ourselves if there are such risks that some kind of occupation could start we couldn't imagine though that full scale invasion would start because we saw what Russian occupation looked like with Crimea and with Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts so you imagined it differently you couldn't imagine that overnight missiles would just start flying nobody had ever seen anything like that why were kids screaming why were people fleeing why was they're absolute chaos those were horror absolutely horrifying moments because missiles are literally flying at you nowadays a thousand drones fly in and we shoot them down we fight but back then right around four in the morning missiles were raining down on your head everyone was in shock so he did it in February because that's what he wanted to do that was his his plan I think he told Biden a whole lot of things I remember unfortunately I think unfortunately President Biden stepped in later in the first minutes or days of the war I had a call with him back then when he offered to evacuate me back back then a lot of people offered me help I said give us weapons help us defend the country and I think they realize that it's impossible to occupy us that's what I think think happened I think that the United States back then I don't know maybe they did consider that it could turn out that there'd be a conflict and we might be occupied but nobody counted on us holding out for sure I remember that I think a day before God that was so long ago I forgotten so much already a day before the invasion the Europeans who knew less than the Americans who knew less than the Americans they were talking with Putin and Putin promised them they would be an invasion. Oh, he lied to all of them back then. He knew there would be an invasion. He knew everything.
Speaker 1When did you first get a phone call telling you that Russia were planning to invade Ukraine? How many days before it happened did you get that call? And who was the call from? It was never direct,
Speaker 2like Russia plans an invasion on such and such day and there will be a full scale war like this and that. It was never like that. These were very cautious diplomatic signals and so on. And this, how can I put it? We kept bringing up this issue. Why? Because people were worried and people were worried. That affected the economy and affected the currency and the stability of the national currency started to drop, which affected the country's economy. And we asked the Americans, give us a clear signal. If you believe this is war, then give us weapons urgently. Everything you can give because, well, that's what our dialogue was like. Yeah, well, but nobody would give anything. And I asked, impose sanctions. That's something everybody in Europe knew about. They knew. I asked President Biden, impose sanctions on Russia now, preemptively. If you know there could be an invasion. Impose sanctions. And then he won't go in if he's really decided to. But President Biden said, we'll impose sanctions if there's an invasion. Post factum, not preemptive sanctions, but post factum. I'm not God to judge a president, but I believe that was a mistake in my view.
Speaker 1Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, but in October 2021, the director of national intelligence and CIA director briefed US leadership and top NATO allies that Putin was making concrete plans for a multi-front invasion. And European media published satellite imagery showing 100,000 Russian troops, tanks and field hospitals that had started to emerge. And CIA director flew to Moscow to warn Putin directly against invading in November 2021. Then in December 2021, the US government took the rare step of declassifying intelligent maps and troop estimates, predicting an invasion force of up to 175,000 troops to prevent Russia from using a false flag operation as a pretext. And then in late January, early February 2021, the US National Security Advisor publicly warned that an invasion could begin at any time, urging foreign citizens to evacuate Ukraine. And then on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched the full-scale invasion. And they launched the invasion from multiple sides. Yes. Really with the focus on Kiev. Yes. Can you remember where you were when you realized that they had crossed multiple borders of Ukraine at the same time? I want to, if I was a fly on the wall, in whatever room you were in, wherever you were, what would I have seen? Where were you? How did you find out?
Speaker 2First of all, I'd like you to know that in Belarus, the Russians were conducting drills, training. These were annual drills. That's very important because when we talked to our partners and they briefed, like you're saying, folks from NATO and so on, nobody fully believed it. Why? Because everybody said they were just saber rattling. Putin was intentionally trying to scare everyone. He wouldn't launch an invasion. What I just told you. European leaders called him. He said, I won't invade. He had exercises in Belarus, military exercises. On top of that, our defense minister was invited there to these exercises. And he was there, just so you understand. Imagine that. He went there, came back, and so on. And then the full-scale invasion started from multiple directions. And what the Europeans said, echoing my messages, was impose sanctions and give weapons to the Ukrainians if you know an invasion is coming. Americans didn't do that. They didn't give them and didn't impose sanctions. And that's why everyone had doubts. Everyone thought the Russians were just bluffing. Why? Because he wanted to push us into the Minsk agreements and so on so that we'd give them Donbass and recognize Donbass as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. In other words, that was the format of pressure. But what happened, happened. What did you believe? full-scale invasion, and so on, so that we give them Donbass and recognize as not Ukraine, and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. I didn't think so, because I believe that if people know there's going to be a full-scale invasion, partners and so on, and they don't take preemptive steps, don't sit him down at the table, don't tell him, are you out of your mind? Have you lost your mind to wage war in the 20th century to kill people? You're completely unhinged. But even so, a full-scale invasion happened, and they approached Kiev very quickly, like really quickly. I mean, it was just, it was, well, an avalanche, and I was with my family. And I was with my family. I got a call from the office saying that before that, during the night, missiles were flying, missiles. I got ready, told my wife, told the kids, told them the war has started. And I went to the office. I arrived at the office. I was the first or second, the second person, I think, in the office, and I called everyone in, and we started. Started the workday, such a terrible
Speaker 3workday, the first one during the full-scale war. What did your wife say? I don't remember. It was very fast. Everything happened so fast. I told my wife, wake up quickly. The war has started. I love you. I'll call you, and ran out. And life has not been the same since? Absolutely. It's just a different life. Everything is different. Everything's different. A hundred
Speaker 1percent. When I was doing my research on that day when Russia invaded, what I couldn't believe is just the volume of troops that rolled across the border. I read one thing that said there was 65 kilometers of armored vehicles and troops on one particular road as they traveled across the border. I read one thing that said there was 65 kilometers of armored vehicles and troops on one particular road as they tried to take Kiev. I want to talk about that, but I really want to also get an answer to this sort of outstanding question in my head, which is Trump has repeatedly said probably a hundred times now that this never would have begun, it never would have happened if he was president. Do you believe
Speaker 3that? I think that nobody knows the answer, honestly. The fact remains that this happened during Biden's presidency.
Speaker 2That's a fact.
Speaker 3It's a fact that this didn't happen under Trump, a fact. But it's also a fact that Putin chose the moment for a full occupation. That's also a fact. That's also a fact. That's also a fact.
Speaker 2And Putin still wouldn't have been able to change his main goal, the occupation of Ukraine. So I think that, honestly, it doesn't matter who the president is, as long as Putin is there.
Speaker 1On February the 24th, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it is reported that they sent, there's different numbers, but some of the numbers go up to 200,000 troops that were assembled across the Ukrainian border. It varies between 150,000, 190,000. And when I look at the total active number of troops in Ukraine at the time, it's almost the same number. So it's almost as if Russia deployed the full size of the number of active duty personnel you had into Ukraine to attack Ukraine and specifically to take Kiev. Can you just explain to me in simple terms how they staged that attack? You said that some troops came in from Belarus. There was support that came in trying to take Kiev as well.
Speaker 2I think. They knew that our main forces, our main forces were in the east of our. country, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Yes, Donetsk-Luhansk region. Why were Donetsk-Luhansk regions where our main units were? Look, there is Kharkiv, which was also their target. Look, all this whole part. Mariupol, which was very important to them. Donetsk, which was already occupied and so on. So, what was the bottom line? Because when part of it was occupied, when Donetsk was occupied, look, Makiivka, Yanakiivka, all of that was after the occupation of Crimea. Look, all of this was occupied, this entire part. Very strong troops were stationed here. Strong, both in terms of numbers and strength. And the separatists, and they were fighting against us. Meaning, you have to understand, these are people, who considered Donetsk their homeland. These aren't just Russians, these are separatists. So, there were both separatists and Russians here. So, this was their strongest grouping. And our strongest grouping was stationed right here. And that was constantly, they were here, they were stationed right here. Why were they stationed here? Because they were holding back the strongest Russian grouping, so it wouldn't break through. And nobody expected, that they would go through Belarus and advance on the capital. And that's why we didn't have any strong troops here. That is an absolute fact. We simply didn't have that kind of army. The entire Ukrainian army was, well, excuse me, it was later I changed the law to make it 200,000 plus, up to 250. But before that, it was an even smaller force. Well, it's simply impossible to defend. You need an army like the one we have today, 800,000, which was actually the main problem for the Russian troops. When they couldn't take our capital,
Speaker 3we held out and destroyed them. They didn't have enough troops to hold the occupied territories here.
Speaker 2And they had to pull back. We were hitting them and they were pulling back. And that's how we fully took back Kyiv region, Chernihiv region, and that whole front. We completely restored it and pushed them out entirely. So, it's completely obvious. They just didn't have enough troops. Just like at first, when they pushed in, we didn't have a strong army here. We didn't have enough troops. And later, the same happened to them. Naturally, when the full-scale invasion started, there was mobilization. And people, there were lines. People showed up as volunteers. And our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000, while the Russian presence was around, by the way, the Russian presence was around 700,000, probably at that moment, around 700,000 across all directions on Ukrainian territory. Meaning this was a massive onslaught coming in, a massive onslaught.
Speaker 1There's an, in late February, satellite imagery, captured a massive 64 kilometer, which is 40 mile long Russian military convoy. Yeah, it was terrifying footage. Yeah, all of that. Backed up along a single highway leading to Kyiv. And when you see 64 kilometers of military, military vehicles and armored vehicles heading to one city, and then you hear that they failed to take that city, the question like, how, how?
Speaker 2Um, they captured, by the way, the Chernobyl nuclear plant where the disaster happened, all of that was occupied. That whole route was occupied. They occupied it and blockaded Kyiv. How did we, people stepped up? People went to mobilize. Yes, a huge number on the first day we, we left, uh, left the country headed toward Western Ukraine, the Western part of our country, they left, but a lot of people stayed. They stabilized. And we, we brought up our troops and started fighting them day after day. We pushed back harder. They cut off our food, cut off our water, cut everything off completely. So that was their, that was their mission. They expected people to run and me and certain people came to me and they said, Kyiv is cut off and Kyiv is surrounded and the Russians are suggesting you hand over your powers and, and that's it. Meaning Kyiv must surrender. Uh, naturally I told those people where to go. Uh, let's put it that way. Uh, out of my office. And then as you know, uh, leaders were calling offering to evacuate before all the roads were blocked, uh, to get out of Kyiv.
Speaker 1Who called you and asked you if you wanted to be evacuated and did they make you an offer to evacuate you themselves? Joe Biden. Joe Biden asked you if you wanted to be evacuated?
Speaker 2He was the first, the first.
Speaker 1What did he say?
Speaker 2We are ready to help you evacuate because, uh, naturally, well, the invasion, Kyiv is surrounded and you, we are ready to help you, you and your family, uh, likewise. Many Europeans offered me that later. Several Europeans, uh, and people, uh, around me as well. Let's say people around me from our political circle also suggested,
Speaker 3yeah, doing all that.
Speaker 1I, I need
Speaker 3ammunition, not a ride. Did you tell your wife and your family to leave? Um, they all, um, nobody could go anywhere because that was a choice.
Speaker 2Uh, that was, uh, the families and there's, uh, uh, naturally they weren't in the office with me or the security detail took them and they went. Uh, to, to, to another location. Yeah. Well, because it was clear that, that, uh, there was just shoot, there was shooting right around the president's office and it was obvious how this could all end. And they asked me to go down to the bunker down there. I had, uh, it was very deep underground built right inside my office. And in that bunker, I started working. That's where Biden called me. Uh, all around my office was secured by snipers, various guys of ours, special services. And I was in the bunker, uh, down there. I had communications and I spoke with all the leaders from there. That's where I first did a video call with the Europeans pleading with them to unite, help Ukraine, not abandon us. And it worked. Yeah. And I continued, uh, being there, going out. Going to the street, talking to, to the people showing myself because there were so many in those first few days, there were so, so many, uh, narratives. Russia was putting out a lot of information claiming I had fled. So basically their whole idea was for people to run and people would run if they saw that their leader abandoned them. Well, I mean, excuse me, if the leader abandoned the Capitol, well, then everyone has to, uh, survive on their own. So that was, that was the whole story they wanted me to run and for them, for them, that was, yeah, obviously that was their goal. I couldn't abandon Kyiv, the office, the people. It's just impossible. That would be betrayal, betrayal, my human decency and the constitution of Ukraine. So I couldn't, uh, do that. Well, and, and that's it. That's it. And then, and they put the Russians constantly pushed information that I wanted them to do. I wasn't there then that I was spotted at the border, then that I was seen, uh, somewhere else than in other countries. And all of that forced me to go out into the street all the time, two, three times a day. I made a decision to constantly communicate, constantly say something to people. So people could see that I was in the office on Bankova, that I hadn't fled anywhere. Hadn't run away. That was important for the military to later on with time, the military told me that it meant a lot to them. They stood strong, fought, defended and liberated Kyiv because they believed they were liberating their capital, their home and their president, meaning that he didn't abandon us, that he stayed with us. That's what they said. Well, it was my duty. I don't see it as some kind of, uh, very special choice of mine.
Speaker 3I believe that this was the only way I could act.
Speaker 1What were you scared? Because if I, you have a nuclear power, one of the biggest militaries in the world, that have 64 miles of. of military equipment heading towards where you are and you have them invading also by air firing missiles into the cities that you're in and your family are in you've made the decision you're
Speaker 3going to stay were you scared scared it's a different feeling it's not about
Speaker 2fear it's about being well being laser focused on what needs to be done right now we were working at such speed i can't even tell you i was just running around the office i was running making decisions calling leaders i just had no breaks i had i don't know dozens of calls with leaders every single day every hour every second i'd run outside come back talk to the military come back so i just didn't have time for that i only realized it all about 20 days into the war i just realized that something happened something terrible and and the speed you know when the speed slightly slightly began to shift you started to realize my god well this is war this is and it's without it a doubt a horrible war yeah but at first i i was just working honestly uh i have this trait i don't even think it's just me people have this trait to pull yourself together when you know shock people around you are in shock and you see it in their eyes you see that they you know well they're in shock and you realize that you need to act right now just act act every second draw conclusions kiev is blockaded open it up tell the military open the road we need food to get in water and so on that is that's what crisis management is and in tough situations basically that's usually how i i act in tough situations and it's not like i'm uh again the bravest person is just when this kind of thing hits i see people around me falling apart you know falling apart well because it's a terrible war i pull myself together completely and only later relate once you've relaxed you realized that a terrible tragedy
Speaker 3occurred a war and and it's just immense grief pretty much like that when when did
Speaker 1things slow down enough for you to realize the severity and the impact of the tragedy that had taken place in the lives that were lost was there a particular
Speaker 2moment the first few days i didn't sleep at all the first few days we just worked i was sleeping about yeah 15 minutes sleeping 15 minutes because i had my entire job was communication i was talking in circles with every leader deliver this over there do that there we set up flawless logistics uh for weapons we we were able uh i was talking at night with poland with andre duda there was a warehouse there we were waking leaders up meaning in the middle of the night so it was well it's improper to say this today you shouldn't treat people like that but that's how it was and about 20 days later into the war everything started coming together into some steps that needed to be taken into some kind of well like the realization that
Speaker 3well a war had begun war tragedy
Speaker 2and we have to move forward and well that's about how it was at first it was crisis management unblock bring back troops break the siege of kiev strike back at them and definitely the most crucial things were communications food water the population so many cities were cut off it wasn't just the banking system cards making sure cards worked i mean we're a pretty digitalized country so a lot of things were done a lot of things were done in those first weeks we were faster than the russians they broke through quickly toward kiev and once we stopped them at kiev we became much faster in the information space and so on we shattered their whole their whole way of working and we broke them down step by step
Speaker 3step by step until they realized that they lost the capital to us and and then
Speaker 2it became clear that we had to push harder our partners helped our partners realized that we wouldn't give up and they started helping that was definitely it i remember how it happened
Speaker 1it is often said that vladimir putin believed he would be able to take kiev and ukraine in just a number of days and actually captured russian assault units carried only three to ten days of combat rations alongside formal dress uniforms meant for a victory victory parade while state media accidentally released a pre-scheduled victory declaration on day three although putin never never publicly uttered the phrase three days or said a sort of time frame himself there are top russian state media figures who openly bragged that the conquest would take only a few days what is it that they miss underestimated about ukraine
Speaker 2that's right exactly what you started with today that ukraine is not russia that's his problem refusing to recognize a separate nation refusing to recognize a separate country that's what did him in he still doesn't understand that he looks at ukraine as russia as part of his own country and he still doesn't that i'll march in with an army we'll have hundreds of thousands of men he'll slam his fist on the table the president will run away people will hide and the ukrainian flag will be swapped for the russian flag and that's it three days we showed a military operation that was supposed to take three days that's how it is when our guys hit their tanks and stuff we found parade uniforms it's true they found parade uniforms in their various military vehicles they were literally marching to a parade they specifically wanted to capture kiev in three days and symbolically hold some well some kind of uh regular spectacle uh of pseudo victory on kreschatyk on independent square well i mean that's the most important thing he still doesn't understand and doesn't want to admit that this is a different nation a different people
Speaker 1just 12 hours ago trump weighed in on what he believed happened with kiev and why vladimir putin wasn't able to take kiev this is what he said i'll throw it up on the screen for the listeners
Speaker 4but then it was supposed to be a very much you know very quick war right and if you remember the tanks going up the highway right into kiev had the general who was obviously not a very good general not made a right turn into farmland which was soaked and soaking wet from the heaviest rain in 10 years they say he went right up into the mud and it was like quicksand and those tanks so they got i guess i don't know if you call it lucky or not lucky frankly because it's been five years and ukraine has lost a tremendous you know ukraine has lost so many of its men number one had they not taken the right turn onto dirt instead of going up a concrete highway it would have ended in one
Speaker 1day so trump says that it was a russian mistake taking a wrong turn that stopped this war being over in a day
Speaker 2no they surrounded kiev they they reached kiev they occupied towns on the way to kiev uh some they didn't occupy towns fought back they bypassed them no if someone took a wrong turn i don't know what president trump is talking about it's overall it doesn't matter with all the armor they lost near kiev hostimal and so on in other words dozens hundreds of armored vehicles burned they just they just trapped us and then we started hammering them and they didn't know what to do about it because they didn't know what to do some of their armor breached into kiev right into the capital armored vehicles drove through the streets and people burned it all down they were especially shocked when they drove toward the capital and people were just throwing burning debris i mean people were setting their armor on fire it wasn't a matter of some general being an idiot i believe the one who gave the order just didn't fully realize what was happening didn't really get what was happening what it would take and that's the main point they needed around thousands thousands i think three to four hundred thousand to take kiev they needed twice as many men why because taking kiev what does taking kiev mean when you've taken those towns on the on the way to kiev you have to leave troops behind to hold those towns and that takes a huge number of people it's a pretty large territory and it's a pretty large territory and it's a pretty large territory and you can avoid leaving many troops there only if there's no resistance but if the people inside offer resistance then you you need an army to hold every town that was that was their mistake. They didn't estimate, right? Didn't estimate. They didn't even realize there would be resistance.
Speaker 3That's it. That was their main mistake. And then that's it.
Speaker 2That's all. For example, if you take that operation back in 2014, when they went in and seized Crimea, then, pardon me, in
Speaker 3Crimea, there are 3 million people. And Kiev had 3 million people. Dozens of people entered Crimea, at most hundreds. And here, hundreds of thousands.
Speaker 2It's not about the operation. The difference is people defended it, stood up and fought. And the difference is no one fought back. Which is why I said, when dozens of people showed up here, where Trump is right, is that if Crimea hadn't been allowed to fall, there would be no war. On this, I agree with President Trump. Not because I'm blaming anyone. No. It's just that dozens of people went into Crimea. Dozens. For a country like this, that's zero. That's nothing. We handled hundreds of thousands.
Speaker 3Here's what happened.
Speaker 2And if they'd been smacked in the head back then, the Russians, those people wearing uniforms, meaning the Russians would have even said, they were already saying, that's not our army. Look at the uniforms. You can't tell us the Russian army. And if they'd been hit back then, well, it wouldn't have happened. Well, at least there wouldn't have been a chance of a full-scale war. Why? Because Putin would have known there would be a blow. There would be a response. But what was his mistake here? First of all, when he saw how Crimea was seized so easily, so easily, that's why he thought he could seize Kyiv just as easily. That was his experience.
Speaker 1And there's quite a famous battle that took place to secure the Anitonov airport.
Speaker 2Rostomel. Rostomel-Antonov. That's what I just told you. That's a battle. There's a terrible battle in Rostomel. A brutal battle. The airport in Rostomel.
Speaker 1Can you explain that to me? Because I watched a documentary on this a couple of months ago, and it feels like it was a really pivotal moment in defending Kyiv. What were Russia trying to do?
Speaker 2For them, it was crucial to seize the airports. Rostomel is one of the airports where a massive landing force could land and so on. So here's how a takeover works. Block Kyiv, capture the airports, basically, TV towers, and so forth. In other words, seize information, logistics, and cut off supplies of food, weapons, and so on. That's basically the plan. And you need the leader to run because no leader means chaos, no chain of command. That's what they were doing. There was a terrible battle in Rostomel. Our people burned them there and they had very tough. Combat units. They couldn't land a large force there. They were destroyed. Rostomel was taken back. Our troops controlled it. That was one of the striking battles. A terrible battle. One of the most striking battles. So we did everything possible not to let them capture us and seize
Speaker 1our logistics. They flew in with paratroopers. So they parachuted people into that airport to try and claim it. And they originally did seize the airport. That's right. And then there was an immediate counterattack where Ukrainian National Guard units and special
Speaker 2forces. Yes, our National Guard.
Speaker 1You shelled and destroyed the runway yourself. You destroyed your own runway while air defense units forces shot down several Russian transport helicopters. And from what I understood, you know, you took the airport back. They fought. You took it back. Yeah, it's constant. That's right. That's right.
Speaker 2Rostomel changed hands back and forth. That's how it was.
Speaker 1And if they had been able to seize that airport, how would that have changed the situation?
Speaker 2Likely they could have. They could have taken most of the capital. They could have broken through and captured it. That's true. That's true. That was an utterly heroic battle.
Speaker 3When you hear these stories.
Speaker 1You realize that the future of Ukraine comes down to both heroism, but also several small battles, some big battles, but also several small moments. When you reflect on that, that month, that moment, what are, is there any other sort of small moments that you think really defined the future of Ukraine in this regard? Well, just so you know, today, places
Speaker 2like Ukraine, you know, you know, you know, you have places like Rostomel, then further up Moshun, and several small towns around Kyiv. There was a desperate battle for every single one of those towns. Why the National Guard? Because back then, the full army couldn't reach it yet. But the National Guard are internal troops. So they were there and brought in army units, and so on. But nonetheless, that's why it was an utterly heroic battle. There was Bucha. You know, right, that they occupied it. It was terrible. It was a genocide recognized by everyone. They buried hundreds of people. They tortured people. I mean, tortured them. And hundreds of people were in a mass grave. They found the grave. There were, I believe, around 500 people, half a thousand people in the grave like that. Just imagine, hands tied, tortured, and then buried in pits. That's what was happening.
Speaker 3People, you know, you're a soldier, you're a soldier, you're a soldier, you're a soldier, you're a soldier, seeing all this, this looked nothing like a war.
Speaker 2It looked, it was definitely pure looting when they occupied those towns on the way to Kyiv, and around Kyiv. They collapsed, they just went into homes, just killed, took microwaves, some refrigerators, TVs. They acted like just, well, I can't even describe it. Well, they're just scavengers. And all these people, they tied their hands, tortured them. There was sexual violence, everything. And they buried people right in the yard, dumped people, and so on. When we liberated those towns, there emerged this, you know, this kind of, such hatred for the Russians. Right at that moment, not even at the moment when they started the full-scale war. Back then, nobody understood what it really was yet. People understood what this war was, and what Putin did personally, when we found those mass graves of tortured adults, children. I mean, they didn't just kill
Speaker 3them, they tortured and killed them. Children. That's right. That's right. And then you realize just imagine what
Speaker 2they went through. Well, there's no, no, you can't even compare what all these people lived through. Why Bucha is so horrifying, and why the Russians immediately started saying, it's a staged performance, we brought in journalists, the entire world press was there, they saw the bodies. I deliberately, when we liberated Bucha, I went there. Once I saw it, I said, bring every journalist here. Don't touch anything. Just bring the journalists. The whole world simply has to see this. And they brought the journalists. People were literally lying on the pavement. Kids, adults, elderly people, and so on. Witnesses who had stayed behind in Bucha, an old man, an elderly man, this was a very famous story there. It's one of those moments you're talking about. This elderly man, he lived, survived the occupation of this town, the town of Bucha, during World War II. And he said the fascists never treated people like that. Yes, they were enemies. Yes, occupiers. But they didn't torture people like that. This is absolute reality. And this, there are testimonies, there's evidence, there are criminal cases. And how after all this, we, it's just that it was already a long time ago in the first year of the full scale war. And sometimes people need to be reminded. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, adults, kids, dogs, animals shot dead. I mean, they held hunting sprees there. From military vehicles, people were running, they were shooting, just hunting, playing games. The whole time they were blockading Kiev, right up until the moment we liberated it, they. There were people in those villages and so on. They literally just just played with people, like slavery. Imagine that. So how after this can you listen to Putin and how after this can you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says, we need to find a compromise, and believe me, we live with this, a ceasefire. And sitting down at the negotiating table, there's a huge compromise. It is a huge compromise. Nobody can step into the shoes of all these people and the relatives whose children were tortured. Nobody wants to forgive them for anything. Nobody wants to forgive anything. And you can't force people to forgive. How can you force them? When their child was tortured, how do you forgive? Well, it's impossible. But that's why we say a ceasefire is the only step because people have such hatred, it's not going away. That hate. That hatred isn't going anywhere. It takes time and justice. And that's why it's a huge compromise. I've always really wanted, I've tried many times to tell the President of the United States, just understand us. This is a huge compromise. Just to hold the lines where we are.
Speaker 3Well, look, that's what it feels like.
Speaker 1What's the day that, you know, will live long in your brain, your mind, your memory?
Speaker 2Bucha, what I just told you, that was a terrible day because I stood there, I had never seen people's bodies just scattered on the street in my entire life. I had simply never seen anything like that in my life. And after that, everything changed completely. And once again, everything changed in life. Everything has changed?
Speaker 3Absolutely. In what way? In what way? Well, you want, you want revenge. I had never had it where I couldn't forgive someone.
Speaker 2And by and large, I think people make mistakes. This is about something else. Evil like that, you know, a devil like that just came in like that,
Speaker 3did that to people like, like chopped meat, butchered them, you know? I mean, that's what it looks like.
Speaker 2And you just can't fathom how that's possible. And you want to find these people who aren't human. You want to find them and you want to, you just want to, you want to kill them. I mean, I had never wanted to kill a single human. Being, I had never felt anything like that. Pure revenge. With time, you can't forget that. And in moments like this, and our conversation brings back moments like that. And you have to be president and you have to calm down and be more, how to put it?
Speaker 3Diplomatic. Yeah. Well, you can't forgive, just forgive. You can't forgive everything like that and say, well, sorry, that's Putin, a powerful country.
Speaker 2Let's just forget everything. Let's forgive everything. And somehow, well, we'll buy and sell gas or diesel or whatever. That's difficult. You understand?
Speaker 1Do you ever worry about how this experience has changed you? Because you have been irreversibly changed by this. I can tell both from meeting you, looking at how you used to be three, four, five years ago. You've been irreversibly changed. And you're a father and you're a husband. And at some point, this war will be over, you know, God willing. But do you ever think about how you're irreversibly changed?
Speaker 3You can't bring it back. It's just, it's two different worlds.
Speaker 2A re-evaluation of values. My only dream is to end this war. I desperately want justice. I just really want, I know so many people had their hearts ripped out. And there won't be a new heart. You have to give them at least something. So, some trial, some justice, you know. At least some moral solace is an absolute must. You can't just leave it. Because that hole inside them, it won't heal. And there will be revenge, like I told you. And. And the revenge of so many people who lost everything. That naturally brings risks of some kind of ongoing military or combat actions, you know, and so forth. So, it's not that simple. It doesn't just end like that. Why do we talk about a just peace? Some people ask, well, what is a just peace? Well, somehow there has to be justice. The guilty must be punished. At the very least, you have to show. Just to show a path that it will happen. Maybe not right now, but that it will happen. It's just totally impossible to simply forgive. And that, and you realize that you want to be with your kids, with your wife. Generally, you just want to end the war and get a little bit of a life.
Speaker 3But if I asked
Speaker 1Alina, your wife, how you have changed on a human level because of all of this, what might she say to me? I don't know.
Speaker 3She'd definitely say I've changed a lot. Yeah, she tells me sometimes. Yeah, well. What is she saying? Well, you know how it is. She focuses on different things, you know, different values. You just want somehow. You want to hold onto something, the people close to you. You really crave that warmth. You want to break through this. In a war, you fight and you're
Speaker 2lonely, you know. In life before this war, you're definitely not lonely because you have friends, company, business, then maybe politics. But you're not lonely. I run a country and this is about something completely different right now. But when you hug your family, it's just like that.
Speaker 3Well, it means there are people who love you. That matters. Do you miss them? Very much. Very much. Pointless sentimentality. Maybe that's it. Okay. That's how it is. Years have passed, you know.
Speaker 2Between this and this, years, years, years. I really miss them constantly. And it feels like that even when they're right next to me. It's just this habit.
Speaker 3This habit of doing work and focusing exclusively on work. Even when they're near, I miss them sometimes. Meaning, well, again, I don't like to complain
Speaker 2and I'm not complaining. I chose my own path. And, of course, I didn't choose the war, but I chose this path. Well, this war, it fell on my
Speaker 3lifetime and on the lifetime of our generation.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful wife and beautiful kids.
Speaker 1Your daughter, she's not a child anymore. Yeah. They've all grown up in the last four years. She's a young lady now.
Speaker 2Very much so. She really has, yeah. Grown up. Yes. And all the children of Ukraine, and it's true. I've said this. The children of Ukraine grew up during the war. Totally true. They are all so grown up. And it's so sad. I mean, childhood passed during a war. Well, but nonetheless, we believe in peace. Peace will prevail anyway, 100%. And my daughter and I are really great friends. She's grown up now. And, well, her English is better.
Speaker 1Do you get to spend a lot of time with the kids?
Speaker 2When there's time, I try to be with them, to call. We talk. These days, there are plenty. There are plenty of options. We talk online. We talk in different ways. That's how it is.
Speaker 1Is it possible, you know, gosh, I've spent, since I was 18 years old, been running businesses and, you know, running a startup, I thought, you know, was a challenge. But it is incomparable from, you know, and I say this because I think about how that pulled me away from the people in my life, my relationships, being so obsessed with business. But it's just totally incomparable to think about what that must be like to try and maintain. I mean, those important relationships, especially with children, when you're country is being invaded and you are the leader of that country i i almost can't fathom how you can find moments of presence with them like true presence i understand how one might be able to like fake presence for a short period of time but true sort of intellectual presence is it is it possible differently but
Speaker 2differently now absolutely but yes that presence matters and those moments you mentioned you've been in business since you were 18 and some i imagine of your relationships become secondary probably while business always consumes your whole life well at least it was that way for me and this re-evaluation from this war and these images and these horrific moments definitely shows me that business is secondary everything is secondary these people right here
Speaker 3that's what matters most now that you
Speaker 2can't get back these years slip away and in these intense moments you remember
Speaker 3these people it's important and your wife
Speaker 1alina has been your rock through it all i've heard you say she's been your stability throughout all of this all of these crazy crazy times yes well we
Speaker 3support each other that's true we um we i think that
Speaker 2i have
Speaker 3a very um
Speaker 2smart uh wife and she is so real we have real we have real feelings we we have love and respect and respect i think that's very important um to respect each other and you know how should i put it people should find each other interesting i think that's the most important thing i think that's the most important thing i think people need to find each other interesting yeah and we find each other very interesting we feel good we feel very good the other um very
Speaker 1important woman in your life your parents are still here but your mother yeah i heard she calls you uh almost every day still the single day every day every single day right every day where does she she's living in ukraine still yeah when your mother calls you what does she say every day what
Speaker 3is she asking you her first question is did did you actually pick up
Speaker 2she's already like that because i so often she i look god 12 missed calls mom i'm working i tell her 12 calls how can you call someone so many times and she keeps dialing she'll call you all day long until i pick up so we make sure to speak once a day she
Speaker 3asks how i'm feeling and is she worried about you oh yeah yeah yeah how are you how are you feeling how are the kids tell me right
Speaker 2when is um putin going to uh end the war and i say mom we're doing everything we can and as things stand
Speaker 1at the moment for that people don't understand what's actually going on in the on the ground in ukraine where the russian troops currently are what life is like on a day-to-day basis if you're a ukrainian can you explain to me which parts of ukraine are currently occupied and generally what life is like for ukrainians at the moment
Speaker 3um occupied uh occupied was krimia then they took the azov
Speaker 2that's an inland uh sea of ours and that's our sea they made it yes they turned it into an inland sea they took mariupol they took mariupol they took berdyansk all of the azov kerch is a city on the black sea they made it so we can't get out next day oleshki is where right now uh people and children are trapped without food without anything they won't let them through they won't let them through they won't let them through right now we are working to unblock it there were 2500 people left kherson we fought to take back the major city of kherson we reclaimed it uh kherson is split by the dnipro river our people live on one bank the enemy is on the other bank and that's why they shell kherson and zaporozhia she's also on this under our control so they took krimia donetsk region uh lugansk region they couldn't take like uh you can call i have her son this part this part is ours so upside the map is just upside down uh from kharkiv here this is what they call luhansk oblast right here this is our kramatorsk like this right here they took yanaki as i took mativta donetsk oblast right here zaporozhia is ours so basically people can see that all of this is all
Speaker 3of this is um this is roughly roughly sorry i'm not very good at drawing
Speaker 2uh all of this is all of this
Speaker 3is roughly 18 18 to 19 percent of our territory that's roughly roughly
Speaker 2it roughly because their maps are one thing to be honest they sell uh one story to the people we have different maps we believe we're right well naturally they have their own their own approach to talking with society and presenting information but roughly that's what it is
Speaker 1and they're attacking via missiles and drones other parts of ukraine constantly right completely yes yes see they're focused on well
Speaker 2honestly you could point everywhere here they've already started today right here they kill people in lutsk that's the western part of our country right here a missile struck and they're hitting kiev uh perlucci right here we went with the british secretary saw 23 people killed zhitomir is under constant shelling uh well rivne has fewer strikes uh lviv
Speaker 3this part fewer strikes here this part to be honest all of
Speaker 2this part is far away from uh the line of occupation from the contact line and from the russian federation so obviously the distance is great which is why there are no massive strikes there yes well that's roughly it what are they trying to do with it i don't know i don't know i
Speaker 1they trying to accomplish
Speaker 2odessa is being shelled before life what do they want to pull out of out of the east of our country so that putin and the east is here's what he wants he wants basically he wants to take the city of zaparisia but he can't that's a target for him zaparisia and herson and mikolayev all targets but he doesn't say that he doesn't say it but after all we liberated those we liberated her song and but
Speaker 1have you heard directly from them right as to what their demands are what they say that they want to to stop launching missiles
Speaker 3yes they basically say right here this entire piece
Speaker 2they want to
Speaker 1take pretty much the east
Speaker 2of uk they want yes the east that means they want uh sloviansk well these are key sloviansk kramatorsk uh drushkivka and that leads right out into the dnipropetrovsk region into uh pavlorad dnipropetrovsk these are the most kriviri is my hometown nikopol is an industrial hub an engineering hub a manufacturing hub it's the economy uh of our country and so it's very dangerous because if you surrender this part to them and this is this is heavily reinforced defense of our nation right here like this and if we hand these cities of ours over to them then the risk is huge if he wants to keep going he could seize a huge number of our cities if he pushes further and the risk is real nobody guarantees anything you understand everyone talks about security guarantees and we're open we're completely open to that we say well okay security guarantees let's do nato well nato you know the russians well again they keep sending signals to the russians because you have to give security guarantees on top of that like i told you the biggest compromise with so many dead the biggest compromise we're already making is a ceasefire let's just stop this war but they want us to pull out even further and if we pull out where are the security guarantees aside from the fact that it's unfair you know
Speaker 1you talked about the barbaric nature of how they've treated ukrainians are you at all concerned that they might escalate to using more horrific weapons like nuclear weapons at any point has that ever crossed your mind
Speaker 2well it crosses everyone's mind after what they've done that they might do something worse but As of today, well, I don't think they'll take the risk of using nuclear weapons because then I think they won't, definitely, I'm sure they won't have any allies left, including countries like America, China. Well, excuse me, but that's far too dangerous even for nuclear powers. That means if one country can do it, then if there's a conflict somewhere else on another continent in another theater, I don't know, the Middle East, whatever, that means if a nuclear weapon is used once, it might be used a second and a third time. So I don't think Putin will risk nuclear weapons. But then again, we're dealing with, look, we're dealing with a man and with a system that until the end of his days. We'll hold on to him and he to it because only when his life ends, will he leave the Kremlin and hand over, well, physically hand over, naturally transfer power. I'm more than certain of that.
Speaker 1Regarding the current situation this week with Trump, with Russia and this deal that's been done, from my understanding, because there's an energy crisis globally, Trump has now done a deal with Russia. He's done a deal with Russia, but he's done a deal with Russia, but he's done a deal with Russia. For diesel. Well, I look at it differently.
Speaker 5Zelensky could have settled this war many times. He chooses not to. Very difficult. It's a war that should have never been started. If I were president, if the election weren't rigged, I would have been president, and that war would have never started. We said you can do whatever you want to Russia, don't hit the refineries, because that's a world problem that's caused. And he wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranchers. With diesel. With diesel fuel. Because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world. And we told him, do whatever you want, but don't hit the diesel fuel, because it's a big problem. And what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel fuel. Do what you want, don't hit refineries. There's plenty of target. And he went out and he hit. And he's not going to affect our farmers, and he's not going to affect our ranchers, and he's not going to affect the rest of the world. So he's better damn well stopped.
Speaker 1And in that, he says that he thinks the Ukraine needs a new president. No. First of all, diesel exports
Speaker 2have no impact. The volume of diesel exports is so negligible from Russia that it has zero impact on prices in the United States of America. That is totally false information. That's first. Second, it makes no sense for us to strike Russia's energy infrastructure. We retaliate because they strike our energy. infrastructure. We've spoken a lot about this. The Russians hit our energy grid. Our people live without power. We don't have oil, gas, diesel, and so on. That hurts them. What hurts us is electricity. They hit our electricity. We strike back at their diesel. They make money on diesel and spend it on weapons. My offer, excuse me, but I don't need this. I've always told President Trump, broker an energy ceasefire. At least on energy. At least let's give people light. And good for the Russians. They'll sell their oil if they want to, if that's what you need. But President Trump can't reach an agreement with Putin on this. Putin refuses him an energy ceasefire. And so the president decided to pin this problem not on Putin, but on me, explaining to his people that because of this, diesel prices in America are going up. That is completely untrue. And I don't know. I don't understand. I have a good relationship with him, with Trump. And I think it's wrong and unacceptable that he pins Russia's aggression and Russia's killings on me. He is shifting the context. And that's not fair. And that's why I honestly said, that's unfair. Ceasefire. He says, it's not what they can't work it out. Well, if you can't work it out, but you need diesel, though, again, I think this is just deflecting the focus away from Iran from what's happening in the Middle East, the entire volume. That's exactly where nothing is working out. Energy, the Strait of Hormuz is blocked. That's the root of the problem. But everything gets shifted onto us. And I made the target as the leader of our country. So I said, okay, you can't force Putin to stop the war and make an energy truce. Give me air defense missiles. I won't fire at anyone. I'll protect our energy sector. So where am I being unfair? In what way? I asked him, give us missiles, not for free. Again, not even for free. Europeans are funding this funding all of it. There's an agreement. But he but they won't give them to us. They say we can't. They give and have given everything to the Middle East. Look, it's just kind of well, it's just like, like, well, it's unfair to the Middle East. Patriot missiles. With Putin, a diesel deal. I'm expected not to respond to an energy attack on inside Ukraine. And diesel prices are rising in America because of that. But it's unfair. And you need a different president. Well, diesel prices, I guarantee you 100% diesel prices don't depend on the volume that Russia sells. They just don't.
Speaker 1And about 76% of Ukrainians say they wouldn't want an election. Now, according to some recent, surveys as well. My last question to you, Mr. President is, is there a realistic path to the end of this war? And what does that look like? A realistic path?
Speaker 3Trump can bring Putin to the negotiating table very easily. Because he needs to the way he talks about me.
Speaker 2President Trump, he needs to adopt that kind of rhetoric about Putin. why do you think he's not i don't know honestly i don't know he's got sanctions on his desk it wasn't him voting congress voted for strong sanctions he can do it he could i don't know why maybe they have a special relationship maybe something else i can't tell you i don't know everything i can only guess some economic deals and so on an old rely i
Speaker 1don't know i don't want to the midterms are coming up and i think you might be a little bit concerned about energy prices in america more so than maybe ukraine yeah well uh look
Speaker 3diesel prices i give you a 100
Speaker 2diesel prices don't depend on the volume russia sells they don't americans export energy resources americans energy exports aren't banned for americans american companies export it's interesting why do american companies export energy well because how can the president of the united states ban private sector exports well i don't think he can and why would he it sells and
Speaker 3money comes in well just well you know how life time you know all all secrets all mysteries and mysteries
Speaker 2and mysteries and mysteries and mysteries always come to light it just takes time time is definitely on the side of those who are open and ready for honest dialogue and fight yes which means time will be on our side
Speaker 1what are your last words to our audience you know i hope that it's not last words last words for today last words today you know half of our audience are in
Speaker 2america i wish america which finds itself in a very tough situation i believe because the world has gone crazy what's happening with the russians with iran the fact that people want blood people want wars i wish america would stay a great nation be strong be strong and be a great nation and i wish america would stay a great nation and be peaceful have the chance someone works someone wants to be home with the kids pray have a family a family dinner i wish america tranquility peace and we're grateful for everything america
Speaker 3has done for ukraine we won't forget this president thank you so much thank you so much i know you've had a
Speaker 1really rough week and it's been very tough so i really appreciate you taking the time i've had everything going on with starlink and the internet and all the challenges so normal yeah thank you so much and we really do wish you the best we really wish you the best
Speaker 6yes and i was happy to hear to see you and to have a dialogue we had good dialogue i think i think we spoke very good so thank you so much thank you so much all the best thank you so
Speaker 1much thank you thank you so much Bye. I'll see you next time.
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