Preseason Power Rankings, Part 6 (feat. Chris Ryan) | Group Chat

Hey everyone, Justin Verrier from Group Chat. Before we get to the show, I wanted to remind everyone that Group Chat, that's me, Rob Mahoney, Jay, Kyle, man, are coming to Minnesota for a live show. We'll be at the Varsity Theater in Minneapolis on Tuesday, October 27th at 8pm. Tickets are on sale now over at theringer.com slash events or click the link in the description of this episode. Thanks. Hope to see you there. Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, Jay, Kyle, man, drumming for some reason. Everyone is excited because this is the final edition of the 2026-2027 NBA Preseason Power Rankings. Now I feel under-equipped, Scott. I was coming with the drums. I thought I was supposed to be slapping the bass. I thought we had something going here. I air drum a lot. It's just kind of my, I keep myself in a nice groove. Well, I find that you keep the time for this podcast. I don't often know what time signature you're doing, but you do keep it. I was going to say that's not true. It's free jazz if it's that. It is quite. Well, I think you can probably tell if you're listening to this that we've been through a lot in this journey. Probably what, like seven or eight hours of content going through every team, about half hour at least, on every single team, even teams that shouldn't be in the NBA, that should be relegated like the Kings. Oh, I was going to say, which ones do you think that is? Just the Kings? Just the Kings right now. Okay. Where do you want to move them? Are they Vegas? Are they Seattle? Or are we going somewhere else? What if the Portland Pickles got a basketball team, you know? Turn them into a full sports complex. Really embrace the European model. Portland, two NBA town. And so, like, we have New York, we have LA. Yep. Portland. Portland. Yeah. I have no argument against it. Is that Bend? Would Bend, Oregon be able to support? Or would Beaverton, what's the, we can just give it like a lesser. Yeah, they're called Portland, but it's the arena's way out there. The Bend Granolas, perhaps. Okay. The Bend Hikers. None of these are really inspiring. Not yet, but look. Slack lines. We're just throwing names up on the board. This is the beginning of that process, and I guess we're moving to Sacramento Kings. That's right. Sorry, Sacramento. But, on today's docket, the top five teams, according to our aggregate rankings for this exercise, had a little bit of help in this one for the Philadelphia 76ers. We're just bringing in all the celebrities from Los Angeles. We had Bill in a previous episode. Chris Ryan joins us to talk about the Sixers. Otherwise, we're just powering through the rest of the teams on a docket. And this is, I would say, the highest stakes podcasting of maybe our entire lives. Okay. You know, these are great teams. They deserve our utmost respect and attention, and we need to get into, not just the superstar-level analysis, but the absolute minutiae of, you know, who is the third-string center on this team. What better way to go through power rankings than to power through them? That's right. We'll get to just that right after the break. This episode is presented by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club. The last-minute gift-givers club, the cool aunts club, the food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. Need to get a meal on the table in under two hours? Done. Shopping for the brands they want, like Dyson and Lego, without blowing your budget? Check and check. Sam's Club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us. Sam's Club. All right. Number five. A team that, had you asked me going into this whole exercise if they would be on this final episode, I would have guessed definitely not. But as you go through it, I think you convince yourself pretty quickly of the Minnesota Timber Wolves. It's only, as we mentioned in previous episodes, after the top three, it's kind of just like the beholder. And so, I think the newness of the Wolves, Lomel getting in there, the excitement of what a re-energizing Anthony Edwards could be, I've dubbed them the new car smell champions of the NBA. Oh, I like that. The Timberwolves. Before this, there's this. As you celebrate the New Year's Eve, you're going to get a new car. Take a deeper look at its roots. The people grow in the grass, pave in the lots, weld in the goalposts, inspecting every football. The hardworking people that make every Sunday possible. Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game. Visit carhartt.com slash join the trades to learn more. I mean, I hesitate to give Lomel any car-related paraphernalia of any kind. Sure. Different smells there. Keep him away. Yes. I was shocked. I was shocked to see them here. But I am not appalled to see them here. I think it's exciting. I think there's a lot about the Wolves we're bought in on. I have some questions, to say the least. We're also not, I'll be clear, pandering because we are doing a live show in Minneapolis. This has all happened before we knew we were going to Minnesota for that show. And so, does it help? Certainly. Then I'll be welcome like a king because, wait a minute here, what other pressurization happened because I had them, well, a spot ahead of JV and several spots ahead of you. Yeah, I think, but we had all of these teams, a discrepancy between them, juggling them about. As Justin was saying, it's so much a matter of taste. I had the Celtics much lower than you guys. I think you had the Nuggets much higher than us. And so, I think the Timberwolves were just kind of the most solid of the bunch where we all thought they would be three to six, basically. So, where do you want to start with the Wolves? Do you want to start with Lomelo? I think so. I have written down Lomelo, the brain rot point god. Is that a thing? Okay. I'm a spitball in here. I'm just trying to understand his place in the universe as I often am. I'm a Lomelo ball guy. You are. Clearly. I always love this about you because it seems like a real odd couple situation where everything about your preference for NBA players would seem to cut against Lomelo. Yeah. It's almost as if like Mr. Belding and Gene Simmons were best friends. RIP, by the way. That's right. Which one am I? Gene Simmons, for sure. I just want to make sure. Yeah. I mean, it's just the ingenuity. Like, I love players. And I think, look, anytime you're watching as much basketball as we're watching, you love the people who surprise you. You love the people who come not through the front door or the back door, but somehow through the roof, just like bounding in on the action. It's like Santa. I mean, sometimes it is. Sometimes it feels that way with Lomelo. But he's obviously going to do things that infuriate fans. He's going to do things that are going to drive Chris Finch to the brink of madness at moments. He's also going to come up with plays that I think just boggle the mind and defile the logic and sometimes imagination. But he sees and experiences the game in such a unique way. How can you not get swept up in that? We're going to end up with like a Werner Herzog, like slowly pushing in on Chris Finch's face to the brink of madness. That was a very bad, impromptu Herzog. But I mean, to speak to the core reason why he's here, I mean, a byproduct of the growth and the brilliance of Anthony Edwards, who has been insanely productive before age 25. I had it. Written down here that Anthony Edwards, 12 players in NBA history have hit 10,000 points, 500 assists before their 25th birthday. And he's on the list. He's one of 12 guys. And him growing has necessitated that they find a major pressure release valve because last season he was one of the most blitz players in the NBA, almost 15% of his pick and roll possession. So you need somebody to come in and take the pressure off of him and make his life a little bit easier. And we saw as he, you know, he picked up some kind of nagging injuries towards the end of the year, and that just made life a lot harder for him. And Lomelo should add definitely a colorfulness and unpredictability to their offense. But we'll see if that's chaotic good or chaotic bad. I think this season marks the year when Anthony Edwards went electric, whereas they tried previously with the Timberwolves to insulate him with just like steady floor razors. I think Gobert is the prime example of that. He just solidified the defense and everything else kind of came from there. Mike Conley was the steady veteran in the backcourt holding his hand through some of these tense moments. And now all bets are off. I think they've been slowly walking this up to getting rid of Cat, bringing in Julius Randle to do supplementary ball handling, but not like take it fully away from Ant. And now it's like, obviously Lomelo is going to empower him, but there's just a certain like charge and supercharge about this team where there's just like, it feels like they saw what Io DeSumo brought to them last year and like, let's just do this in abundance. I think the flip side of that would be, it seems like they are turning the page on their identity. They're not the big physical team that's going to smash you in the teeth. That might be something intrinsic in their play style, but if anything, this is going to be the fun blistering, like, like melt your face sort of team because the offense is just like, there's just so much going on here. Just a totally different open court premise for the Wolves. I mean, they were middle of the pack in terms of pace, middle of the pack in terms of drives. Like they're just not a team that was leveraging Ant's athleticism to the maximum possible effect. They were in the half court because he had to bust out of so many actions and make things happen for them. But to me, it's not even really a question of Lomelo and Ant and can they work together? It's more comprehensively is what the Wolves are about to do a style of play that just makes life easier for the most important member of the entire organization. And if you can do that for Ant with the pressure release of having another playmaker with a faster paced style with something that's just like a little more free and loose, that might be worth a move like this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's not direct. directly cause causational whatever you want to say but um causal uh the emergence of the spurs i think they just kind of ran up against the wall with the bully stuff and i think the ball pressure and the switchability of the top two teams i think they just had to kind of pivot a little bit and get a little bit more you know optionality variability like we were saying and you know lamella's gonna add that they also added a little more chaos that another spot will get to sure but lamella's one of the most creative players in the world i mean he makes difficult things look easy i was going through and just kind of watching um you know hornets possessions last year where he was you know comparing him to ant ant is a creative ball handler but lamella was just on another level in terms of just like what he can siphon out of a possession that looks dead um he can just create shots because he's just one of the most talented ball handler passers in the world do you think this time was a good time to take this sort of risk because on the one hand lamella is a certain type of creative counterbalance to anthony edwards that he's never had and just getting that talent in the building is an opportunity unto itself but obviously the injury history we talked about this with the charlotte hornets it's a big part of what's going on there i think you have to be pretty worried that the hornets were ready to get off of him as soon as he proved like he had a good stretch and they immediately traded him that's always going to worry you if you're the other team or the other team's fans did it feel like considering the trajectory of the wolves coming off of yet another playoffs where like they had an awesome first round series jane mcdaniels looked incredible basically won that toward the end of the night and then they were like oh my god i'm gonna win this game series by himself do you feel like now was a good time like this was like they were ready for this sort of pivot or does this feel risky it's both but i do feel like it's a good time i feel like it was a good time because the julius randall stuff specifically had run its course yeah and if you want to zoom out it's like the last three four years the wolves have just been a constant state of flux it's like you know first they're trying to make cat and rudy work then they're trying to make julius and rudy work they're trying to make like this jumbo size lineup all these pieces and is there in the middle of it jayden is there in the middle of it those guys are trying to grow up on the job the idea of okay in theory we could just change julius randall's spot now and try to address some of these other issues later you're just kicking the can down the road and demanding another period of change going into yet another season potentially so i kind of like that they did both at once you know losing nazarite is tough it's a really cool really important member of this team but let's do the lamello thing now and they're replacing the julius randall thing now and just get all the way to the end of the season and then we'll see what happens next of the training wheels on at the same time this kind of brings us to the essential question we have down here which is clearly they've added this new fun dimension with the mellow uh and i think it trickles down to how the rest of the lineup shapes up clearly this was a front court not driven team but certainly like the identity lied in the physicality and just the beef and just the the kind of like approach where we get into a series like this is going to be a bare knuckle fight but like that's a problem for you not us it does open up a hole in the starting lineup at least to start with we assume i was going to be a big part of this team but like it's basically rudy in a bunch of wing size adjacent players jayden's like just like incredibly long and whatnot so he's like kind of in this in between thing but like did they lose too much heft i think is the big question in the front core in order to build this new dimension they lost a lot yeah i think it's going to hit them in a bunch of different ways you know they were already a pretty iffy rebounding team lamello in theory actually helps offset that a little bit one of the better defensive rebounding guards in the entire league which triggers things yes that gets you on the break that gets you into your stuff and your style that's all great but i just think a lot of the lines are going to be really really small and they're going to have to find ways to make up for that i think there's like there's the effect of that that's just like do you have a good matchup for nicola yokich or the rockets front line that's a very specific kind of concern yeah then there's like the comprehensive do you have enough size at every position to make victor webb and yama's like that's a very specific kind of concern yeah then there's like the comprehensive do you have to have defenders who are literally big enough that he actually sees them and it's like that's not a one position job that's like where is the help coming from how much collective size do you have on the floor i don't know that they're ever gonna have that that much um i suspect jonathan coming is gonna play a lot it seems like he's probably gonna start for this group i just don't know that him at the four is quite the level of size you want to paper over all the potential problems that come with that but he does fit into this run and gun style he does fit into a more balanced set of aims than the wolves of old did and you you know we mentioned the the brute force thing you know randall obviously a pretty dubious shooter over the course of his career but like kaminga versus nas in terms of shooting dependability is it is a trade-off like nas is an insanely skilled for as big as he is and the things that he added as a driver at his size very talented ball handler uh much more dependable shooter than kaminga also just one of the fastest releases for a stretch big in the league which when you're trying to make room and make space is a huge deal and can bounce it a few times and it's a huge deal and it's a huge deal and it's a get to that release too also losing mike and nori who was a dependable hand uh on the coaching staff there on the broadcast him him chipping in like doing little bits coming out of the second quarter timeout or whatever i'm gonna miss it so it just feels like a new experience there and so i'm excited to see it but i do always worry about the trade-off the dependability for something reaching for something a little bit new yeah i think that is epitomized in the center rotation where the dependability is rudy gobert uh historically he's just a top 10 defense i don't know if this is a defense first team anymore we're gonna have to see kind of what this group of players is able to muster together around rudy if they give him the support that he needs which he's not young spry utah rudy gobert anymore he's gonna need a little bit more resistance than that you're getting it from jade mcdaniel certainly you're getting it from ant at the best of times jonathan kaminga and lamella ball really is a shrug depending on the night tonight um but that's the dependable version and then you go behind gobert and yohan baron j is stepping up stepping in i i think he is look he is so so young yeah i think he's still 19 at this point uh he is promising enough i feel good about giving him this crack at backup minutes and seeing what he could do he might fall in his face i think he's gonna make a ton of mistakes i think he also might drive chris finch to the brink of madness at various points but he's the kind of gamble the wolf should be making in this same light like if you're running up against the wall in all these different ways like what's going to happen to you if you're getting these elements to your team that you didn't have before and i think the youth and what he brings in terms of his mobility is just very different from rudy i think this there is a very obvious shift in defensive personality philosophy where we're shifting from containment wall up rim protection to this is going to be a lot more deflection i i would imagine their deflection game is going to be a lot stronger because you know like lamella not a contained defender but he can get his hands in passing lanes jayden jayden obviously pretty versatile in that sense but baron jay is that type of dude like a lanky chases block shots he's just isaiah evans another rookie that they added is another guy who just fits that sinewy lanky body type so they definitely have shifted that direction and i think moving away from having naz and randall you're you're gonna you know speaking to jayden again is he earned a little bit more trust as an on-ball threat so i i just think you're kind of shifting some of that that those touches and responsibilities down the the food that down the line down the connective chain of their lineups um it's interesting with rudy though it's like i don't know that since i guess conley i'm trying to think of the best we were talking about luca with with walker kessler and just like who the who can spoon feed the best in the league rudy catching lamello's lobs i think might have an adjustment yeah i mean rudy has a pretty narrow band of what he thinks an offensive basketball play should look like and flow like sometimes like he he expects very particular things and lamello is not a very particular creator and so yeah i think there's going to be a learning curve i hope they can get on the same page though because lamello is a good lob passer but you have to be open to the fact that it could come at any time from any direction do you see he's a goatee guy now like real like meaty like all here sort of a goatee guy i think we all become that over rudy is bald goatee looks like a like a super villain in a movie or something you gotta embrace it you know you think that's the lamello in i think it's the frenchman in him okay i'm curious if it's like it's easier to downsize in the front court now because if you're the wolves and you think your biggest obstacles are going to be the spurs and the thunder obviously they have big hulking guys especially the spurs in the middle but like they're a little more wing dependent i wonder if is it this the way the league is going where like if you're saying these are the biggest teams in the west like we don't have to be as conscious about it because there still are teams with size but they're now i think a little bit further down the pecking order yeah well i mean especially if you think that oklahoma city's defense and by extension san antonio's too are the things you need to be able to crack the spurs showed us that the way to beat okc is that you have to have a lot of very reliable decision makers on the floor right you really can't afford multiple spots where guys are getting clammed up and julius randall can bully a lot of people we've seen him have like honestly a pretty tremendous amount of playoff success given the right matchup also can stop the ball and so if jonathan kaminga comes in and plays frankly the way jonathan kaminga has historically played that's not gonna work but if he is a free moving get off of it cut active engaged member of a free-flowing offense that's a player who could actually help them be good defenses i'm skeptical i mean uh there's a lot i just listed seven adjectives that he's never been in his life so maybe he can be a couple of them i just don't think jonathan kaminga will ultimately matter to the bottom line of this team much in the same way he did to the two previous teams that he played for but can they afford to not play together - Well, I think that's where the IO move, I think, kind of went under the radar because it happened at the deadline and they brought him back over the offseason like I think that is a new dimension overall for this franchise that I think they're going to rely on more than Kaminga obviously he builds upon a strength more than he adds a new dimension and so maybe they have to turn to Kaminga in certain situations but I imagine they close with Io I think he fit incredibly well he had real deal playoff moments and so maybe they'll pick up bench guys along the way there are like a couple interesting younger guys on this team but for me the team's best five is with Io in it and that's a pretty scary lineup that I think other teams are going to have to match up rather than vice versa yeah I like that group for sure I think a lot of the concerns about the front court are depth related yeah right it's if you if you're not going to play Jonathan Kaminga or you're not going to play in meaningful minutes then yeah you're sliding up Jaden you're playing a lot of guards together and then you have to get back on minutes from somewhere like are you looking at Trey Lyles or Cody Williams like is one Terrence Shannon playing up a position or two like I don't know how realistic those things are yeah I mean it'll be it'll be like a call back to I mean Jaden's earlier years in Minnesota he definitely straddled the 3-4 and tilted four more I feel like him him going more three was just them pursuing this just big bulky imposing physical thing this just this might be a return to the way that he positionally kind of and played earlier on in his time in Minnesota and if they play that way that might be a way to sort of wingify them more in a way that's one of those teams it's just the teams at the top are really big and really long I think that's the other condition of the Wolves taking this form and we've kind of talked about it and around it with a couple ways with Jaden but like him having the playoff run and really the season that he did is a huge part I think of what emboldened emboldened them to go this route the fact that he has become a real attacker off the dribble a guy can get into his mid-range game who can drive all the way to the rim who's become a true knockdown shooter from where he started an incredible player development story like if you're gonna create all this space and pace you need guys who can do stuff with it and Jaden McDaniels has turned from a 3 and D role player into someone who can actually make things happen when he's given the opportunity yes how many of these guys have come around where they have the archetypical like athlete have the dimensions could maybe shoot down the road and ultimately settled into that like good rotation player solid starter Jaden's like one of the few who's taken to the next level like we talked about Tari Eason in the past it's like like this is a completely different player and the offensive development he showed last year stepping up when all those guys were out in the playoff series and going toe-to-toe with yokich and like not batting an eye that like that was real deal to the point where like he seems foundational he always was a big part of their future but like now he seems like like that's like you can't get rid of this guy like he's an integral to what they're doing um speaking to the frontcourt specifically not to go like blogger too quickly but like I like the Cody Williams swap for Josh Green if only because like he fits what the need is more the offense is an adventure but we're not talking about a lot like if we're saying they close a little smaller regardless like you just need defensive minutes you need 15 minutes a game uh and he showed progress defensively and that's I I think that's what you need from that spot and so for me like the cominga thing just feels like found money if he plays better great if he doesn't like let's just move him down the line yeah I I feel like for me I'm looking at the balance of this roster where he seems more important than that yeah but I mean really it depends on what how Chris Finch feels about it if if he can find enough ways to make Jonathan cominga an interchangeable part the Wolves are going to be better for it he's yet another one of these guys who the more you rely on him the more dangerous your team build becomes yeah and one of the bigger but one of the and I hate to keep he could be awesome I could totally live to be you know proven wrong on this but there's a zoom out sort of him being there broader you know contracts him looking at the next few years of his career as he goes into his Prime I'm just kind of curious like what is cominga looking to uncork in this situation out there like what is it what is it about this situation that he expects to sort of like turn over a new leaf and and show and is that going to align with the way that the Wolves want to play is he going to be able to balance like the playing within the flow things his buy-in to those things I think is way more likely to improve his his value in the league because I just I don't I don't see him as the the spread ball screen guy that he seems to kind of have the ambition to be well the like the structure of his contract tells you what the motivations are like you signed the one plus one so that you audition as a starter you show the league what you can do when it seems like all these other teams doubt you but yeah do you take that to mean I'm playing good team basketball or I'm putting up the the biggest numbers I possibly can or I'm going to show I have a one-on-one game or whatever it is and a little of all those things I honestly think it's fine like it's just a matter of finding some workable balance that's taking heat off of Anton lamello but not totally sidetracking the offense in the process yeah I just like as we're going to the conversation I just feel like Jaden ultimately becomes the like the skeleton key to be able to play without having a traditional four in there because you're just looking at specific matchups so you mentioned the two teams I think you have to worry about Nuggets and Rockets Rockets like you're going to do double big against this team and have Adams or shangoon Chase and JD McDaniels around the perimeter like I think that's an advantage for the wolves I think Aaron Gordon is a specific piece he has been for years now but as we talked about in a previous episode always injured and so like if I'm making a calculated risk like that feels pretty good to me because like the Thunder and the Spurs are just so talented but I'm not worried about Jaden getting like lost in the shuffle there we can't play smaller because of their like yeah chat home run despite the fact that he gained two pounds like I don't think they're quaking in their boots just yet probably not I I think the issue with teams like that have that kind of size again is how many guards you're also putting in that mix it's not just like how does Jaden stress out opposing bigs but like do you have enough perimeter size to contest with like the Thunder gonna have lineups where j-dub is the small forward right and like I think I would feel a little differently in a lot of ways if Dante were healthy and Dante Dave and Chinzo is probably going to miss the majority if not all of this season which is a huge bummer because he would fit this style so well like the open court free-flowing thing like he would lock into that playing bigger too exactly he's like one of those guards who I think rebounds a little better than his size at least in big games not across the board and then can guard up and so it's like who who are you finding on this roster that's gonna guard up I think Jalen Clark can clearly do it here and there but then you get into like very wispy I like Io bones Highland kind of territory that I I just I don't know how much Flex how much give there is in the backcourt as far as cross-matching goes anything else with this team I mean this is like very deep in the weeds but if we're talking about Yohan Baron J as a variable which he is a teenager who's going to play a meaningful role what's happening behind him is even more more perilous and I say that because zakursky Enrique Freeman I these are these are the open questions I'm trying to ask because Baron J is going to get in foul trouble Rudy gobert has been uncharacteristically healthy for a big like very lock steady does show up does play a ton of games if God forbid he misses a month like who plays then backup Center for this team and so that's where again I guess you're going really small in those situations because I just don't think many of their other Center alternatives really make sense is there a dark horse and MVP run this year let's say everything goes right and they're second in the West let's say are we like ready for that moment or is this point like it's going to be the all the same characters because they just have such a stranglehold over the top three spots I think narratively if everything goes right it's going to be a huge lamello story too and so that makes it harder to make the ant case not that he wouldn't deserve it but I think as far as like where the attention goes it wouldn't be all ant focused which it I think is a harder sell yeah see highest he's had two seventh MVP voting finishes um is there going to be enough just production productive like offense or oxygen for him to like Huff in this like with the presence of yeah I would it would make you wonder is like this lamello becomes such a respectable alternative that teams you know respect him and then that opens and up to kind of kind of go harder or is it it just kind of makes you want to have the production shakes out I would I I kind of feel like it's probably going to hover in this zone of like third to fifth in MVP voting just a function but that's just a function of the talent playing during this era he's been an incredible but I would love if this turns out to be like a true unlocking season for the Wolves you know like not quite you know Steve Nash in 2005 going to the suns but like more about what that did for Sean Marion and Amari stoudemire it's like a world in which ant gets four downhill possessions a game that he didn't otherwise have like that's a dramatically different outcome as far as his production what it does to the offense and you could say the same thing about Jaden with a couple here and there IO here and there just like a little bit of give in that offense I think could really really help them if if he's not getting blitzed like four or five times a game that alone there it is I mean you've already spelled out where it's going to be because if they got all those respectable shooters out there I mean there it is one more thing before we turn the page here uh I know Nike hasn't done a lot well for the uniforms going on here especially because well here's the thing they they hit on certain things but they cycle through them so quickly it's true we can't really appreciate what they've done it seems like they're bringing back some of the classics and one of them is the purple rain one yeah uh an amazing idea amazing Jersey I'm excited to see also fits where the team is going like real like we're in Technicolor now thing happening with the wolves so uh I like it can we have that moment for every team let's put up on the board the seven City Edition franchises or like identity whatever the they're called put them up for vote you pick one and that's now our official Alternate for the foreseeable future. We've had so many cracks at this. I just don't need any more like, oh, the lining of this is tracing this river that's our state's. I'm done. Let's pick one. This is our state bird. And here's the thing. To your point, almost every team has had one or two really good options. And they just have moved past them so fast that they've been buried. They've done a lot of good. They've just also done a lot of bad. I don't think the bad outdrown. There's just too many. There's too much optionality. The wolves have some sick ones, though. I mean, you get into the pine tree. How do we feel about the trees? Oh, majorly pro tree. Yes. I've always been a little more partial to the bright blue-green J.R. Ryder look. That they're bringing back this year. I like that one. Oh, you're talking 90s bright blue. Yes, older, older. Yeah. I miss the Kevin Garnett ones. They made a pivot to reclaim some of the past, which was nice. I think it's better than what they currently had. But I wish it was more black. And, like, the fierce wolf. Go back to that guy rather than the one who's just, like, docile and howling. You know? The satin. I was telling you guys off here. The satin jacket with the purple rain. If somebody wants to send me one of those for free, I don't want to pay for it because they're way too expensive. But that's a sick coat. That's a coat I would wear to the coffee shop. Well, all of the, like, starter style jackets for the wolves in particular are just metal as hell. They look great. Well, another good one they're bringing back. It seems like the black Sixers jerseys from the A.I. era are back because LeBron basically molded into existence. Yeah. So let's talk about the Sixers. And since they're such a big deal this season, we're going to bring in an established hand to do that. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. All right. We're spending this whole podcast trying to figure out what we actually believe about this NBA season. Who's winning the title? Which teams are going over? And which prediction are we going to pretend we never made by February? And FanDuel has a reward stack built for exactly this. You get a stack of rewards to use on NBA Futures. So what? While we're sitting here talking ourselves into teams the rest of the show, you can make your future picks on FanDuel. Put your reward stack to work on NBA Futures with FanDuel. Check it out in the FanDuel app and make this your most rewarding season ever. 21 plus select states or 18 plus D.C. or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777. Or visit ccpg.com. Org slash chat in Connecticut. So number four on the power rankings are the Philadelphia 76ers. And as soon as we started talking about them, the helicopters started to go up top of the roof and Chris Ryan appeared. I appeared from my Malibu manch. Yeah. And I was like, somebody somewhere is talking about LeBaron Phil and I got to be there for it. Thanks for having me. Of course. Guys, very curious to see. I'd like to know the director's cut of what you guys would have said about this team were I not here. So I almost want to go last when we start talking about this team. Well, I'm going to guess it's going to be more or less the same glowingly or at least curiously positive version of what we're about to say, because we all rank this team super highly, as you can tell by them being fourth. I would say beyond the three teams we're going to talk about, it's not a mystery who they are. I just feel so dizzied by the possibilities. Like, I have to pinch myself to remind myself that this team, in fact, exists. The LeBron and Joel Embiid and Tyrese Maxey and Jalen Brown are, in fact, teammates somehow. What the fuck is this? This is crazy. This is crazy. And the vibes, guys, the vibes are good. Well, here's the thing, too. Whenever these teams assemble, whenever superstars come together, we always wring our hands like, there's only one ball. How is this going to work? And we've done this so many times. We've done this so many times at The Ringer on so many podcasts. At a certain point, if the guys want it to work, it will work. And now that is a big question, the motivation of it all. It's like us on this pod. That's right. We can just add another superstar. But, like, as you're listening to these. I think the one concern would have been Jalen Brown. But you listen to him. It almost seems like because he got so much backlash because of his, like, preferences and wanting his own team, or we assumed that, it almost seems like he wants to prove people wrong by fitting in with this team. Yeah. I thought he probably had the not the roughest or rockiest media day, but the one with the most scrutiny. Because I think, if anything, he might be the dude who's just like, I'm a very unique character. And I am going to say my honest response. Or maybe not my honest response, but an interesting, grabbable response to every question. So his next question about who's the alpha on this team was a notable headline from Media Day. I saw some people trying to make hay out of it. In context, it wasn't that weird. I think he's been really awesome so far as a Sixer. He's already done all the stuff Bill always used to preach about with, like, impacting the community stuff. Like his first press conference taking place in, like, a Southwest Philly rec center. Was pornography. It was just like, this guy gets it, and he gets what gets people in Philly excited about athletes. And I think that, what do we usually react to when these super teams come together, if that's what you want to call it, for lack of a better phrase. It's usually like clash of personalities. It's like dudes who are in various, what stage are they in, what, how do they see themselves somehow, some way. Like. Yeah. I don't see that as being a huge issue on this team. In each guy, you could be like, well, what happens if this happens, and then this happens? But at least initially, they all seem to be singing from the same hymn book. Yeah. And, you know, I will say that I have thought long and hard about the LeBron arrival, and I'm starting to think it's the greatest free agent signing in the history of the league. Okay. Because of how little he's making? Or just. Where they are in their trajectory, or what? Both. Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's not coming with this $40 million a year, $50 million a year, $60 million a year tag. There is no, you're being held hostage on a one-on-one, and immediately he has to be, like, delighted with the situation or have full personnel control. It's like, look, man, this is probably the last stop. If it's not, if he wants to go play with Bronny one more year in Cleveland or something down the line, like, whatever. Yeah. But this is, like, he came here by choice. I mean, the Knicks thing aside, which, honestly, like, I just don't care. I don't care about the Knicks thing. I don't care about the New York, like, living in New York thing. I'm just so excited that I am going to get to cheer for LeBron James. Nobody ever, like, only a few fan bases get to do that. That's true. Have you reconciled with the fact that he is now the greatest player to ever wear a Sixers uniform, or soon will be? I'm sorry. It's just, it's a thing we got to throw out there. You know, Vijay Edgecombe exists. I think that that is going to be a little bit of, there's going to be an initial shock of, like, this is happening. Like, he just finished a fast break, or, you know, he just shot a three, and it went in, and the Wells Fargo exploded. Like, there's going to be that. And then there is going to be the, he gave a weird answer after a two-game losing streak or three-game losing streak or whatever. And it's going to be like, oh, this is how it feels when he. He kind of plants something and then walks away from it. But I just don't see a ton of downside on it yet. I could be wrong. I also feel like it's different than a lot of other super teams in the past in that, like, you know, this team hasn't gotten past the second round of the playoffs since 2001. Do people talk about that? A little bit. It comes up. So, really, even if it went super bad, it's not that much worse than where we are. You know what I mean? This is a team that's been. Talked about way more than they've performed over the last decade or so. So, I feel like I'm throwing a lot of topics out there. Well, I just think the motivations all align. Not only with Brown, but, like, LeBron is now the ultimate ring chaser. It just so happens that he's chasing a ring after single-handedly getting rid of the Rockets in the first round of the playoffs. Yeah. Like, a couple months ago. But, clearly, all his career is set up to go chase this next opportunity, this next ring. And for Embiid, he's already poking fun at him, being like, oh, I didn't come here not just to live the fuck around. Like, we need to win something. And Embiid, if there's one thing left on his plate, it is that. But I think that's probably the big question. It's, like, it's motivation, ultimately, with these super teams. But it's also just injuries. Like, look at the Nets with Kyrie and Harden and KD. Like, that team was awesome. When they played together, they just didn't really play together. And a lot of that was injury. A lot of it was Kyrie just being a weird guy. But, also, I think the big question is, like, Embiid won. And, like, how do they cobble together a defense when Embiid isn't there? Because it's a lot of older guys or guys who are a little bit more reluctant. Or, Kyrie. Max, he's a little bit, like, smaller. So, like, that's my one concern. But it's obviously at a lower level. Yeah, the defense thing is, like, a separate conversation we can have. But I think the glass half empty, glass half full thing here is that you could look at it, like, pessimistically. Like, okay, there's not enough balls to go around. Oh, the worry. Whatever. But when I look at this, I see, like, kind of mini rosters within, like, mini builds within one roster. We were trying to just cobble together one linear thing with branches that you could, like, see. Like, react and respond in a playoff series, like, with the Miami Heat or whatever it is. This, and I think that the buy-in is going to be the peddling that kind of propels this thing on throughout the season. Is that we have the potential VJ Edgecombe leap that could come and sort of, like, just kind of spackles our favorite word on this show. Just kind of, you know, sprinkle that over the calendar and the season. We have Tyrese could step into the, like, he was fucking fringe MVP kind of things going on. Those things, I think, are going to sustain you. And then Jalen Brown trying to prove something. Those are going to just. propel you through the season as you kind of try to figure out like is and be it's not going to all be on and be to kind of be the god and savior i think i think they were too straightforward in the form that they had it was one answer to almost every question and it had to be this one way this one structure this one format i think every one of these stars now has some version of exactly what they need if you thought about a joel and b team it's like what do you need guys who are consistently available for the games that he's not guys who can help carry that workload guys who can help get him the ball in opportune spots he has all those things tyrese maxi what does he need a facilitating kind of big or wing oh my god let me give you the best one in the history of the league to do what you can't do from a playmaking perspective jalen brown kind of said like you all these guys are helping each other navigate the floor and the challenges of every game in a way that it's not the perfect skill to skill fit but within the four i think you're right about the sub rosters and sub combinations like there's versions of the sixers that solve all those problems i think there's a pretty stout defensive lineup among all these guys i mean i may be overrating kcp at this point in his career but a kcp vj wade brown lineup can defend you know i mean there's a lot of reputational defending going on there maybe more than actual like hey watch the tape this guy this guy falls asleep off ball or whatever it might you might want to say but i think they can defend like to your point about brooklyn those years ago that was it could be the greatest offense we've ever but i have no idea what happens when any one of those guys is off the floor and they don't have any defense like i think that when it matters this team will be able to rise to a suitable defensive level is that level spurs thunder nicks probably not you know and i i'm not getting ahead of myself where i'm like planning the parade but i am excited to see this team compete in a way that i don't think they've had the the roster to do so in the last couple years i mean i think the best thing they have going for in bead is they don't need him in the regular season this team can just pace out a bunch of wins and he could just be on ice i guess the question is even if you get into a playoff series as we saw last year like he could be available then all of a sudden it just completely bottoms out from there but it is funny the team that they've assembled because as we're listing out the name and the potential and all this other stuff it's like it reminds me a little of like the warriors coming together and like obviously on a different level but another star team all there and everyone's talking about like we're just going to find some of these guys and we're going to find some of these guys and we're going to find them and we're going to find some of these guys and we're going to find some of these guys and the beauty of basketball and all this other stuff there's a real fucking pragmatism with this team that i like where everyone seems dialed in where it's like no we're just awesome we have a ton of talent and we're just going to steamroll when we need to and that seems like their approach like i if you were to match up a series right now in the preseason with the knicks i would give the edge to the knicks just because we've seen the flow that they can create from all their different parts but you put these guys in a series you have the problem solvers as we're going to find out how to solve things on the fly when you've come into situations that you're not expecting and so i don't know it's it's i guess it's a regular season and playoff questions but like they ultimately have something that you just like feel confident in from the jump which is odd to say because i had a lot of questions about previous superstars like joining forces in the past but you don't have to be inspiring like when you could be fucking stacked and just just that kind of talented i think the pragmatism informs not just the basketball part of it like how these guys came together in the first place like trading for trading paul george for the first place for jalen brown is a strictly pragmatic move no matter what any detractors would tell you like that is an opportunistic what does that say i mean they're conflicted it depends on which stats you consult but like and lebron same thing like i he is chasing a ring in a way but it's like this is the best chance for lebron to be lebron on a team that is contending at the highest possible levels and so that marriage for him alone i think it makes it worth his time and everybody's time do you guys detect or feel any for yourselves like aha hostility towards this collection of players the way maybe other super teams have garnered like you know people being like god damn it like where do these guys get off you know all joining forces and like this is such horseshit you know like i i've definitely been on that side of things um probably more for like the nets thing than anything else for no real reason i liked all those guys like as players um maybe not as public health officials but like i liked them you know like uh but it's just kind of like interesting to watch this one come together because i feel like everybody is like they just watched like a season of 24 and they're like wait what what happened like you guys got lebron like i gotta is that real that happened like it's weird because it doesn't it doesn't i think the willful choosing to like align your prime with another superstar makes it feel a little more cringy with that like that that feels like a difference but then it also doesn't feel like 2004 lakersy to me either it's like it doesn't because lebron is still so i don't we don't have to go into that i mean malone and peyton both were like a little bit better than people remember but it's like lebron's still pretty good it just feels different i think just because he's not quite what he was even though he's still really good and then in bead isn't quite what he is all the time right i think there's a real sweet spot there where yeah they're not superstars in the prime of their careers who are choosing to make things very easy for themselves but they're also not superstars in the prime of their careers who are choosing to make things very easy for themselves but they're also like all at least the majority coming off of like acquitting themselves pretty well like lebron had a good playoff yeah right and so like coming off of a relative triumph into this and the sixers coming off of that first round win into this where it's like no one was desperate here like like there are teams who are taking the opportunities ahead of them and players who are taking the best chance that they've got but everyone is playing well enough but not so well that it feels overwhelming the gist that i get is i almost wonder if people expected like are reading it as the process got a government bailout because they they spent so much time meticulously like crafting the perfect environment and sending in bead overseas and doing all this stuff to finally get the greatest team assembled and ultimately what is perhaps going to push them over the top is a trade that people thought was a bit of a ripoff with jalen brown that the silt just needed to get rid of them and the sixers didn't pay a ton to get him and then they got lebron for free and so i get that i don't align with that but i could see where people arrived kind of the i was thinking a lot about um the now doomed clippers assembly of of kawaii and then kawaii saying like the price to get me is is you guys also have to go get paul george yeah now i don't that didn't happen with the sixers but it changed like you said lebron's acquisition changes the jalen brown acquisition um i also look at it you say government bailout i'll say um the government doesn't work that way anymore not really but i would say that there was something different about the government bailout and the government bailout and the government bailout about how for as much as maury daryl maury obviously set the sixers up for this kind of success and even though he made moves i think a lot of people disagreed with and sometimes as it's been like kind of a characteristic of his tenure in houston and philly like made decisions that made sense in an excel sheet but not in a locker room or on a court necessarily this is actually like fully narrativized like this is a relationships team if the relationship don't work on this team that will be the end of the team you know if the guys can't get along they will not play well if they do i think they'll play quite quite good because i think a bunch of guys on this team vj and lebron especially have already self-identified as being like i'm a swiss army knife like i'm excited i get to tell my kids when they grow up that i played with lebron james so i'm already bought in lebron is not like what i need to do is make all nba you know i don't have to trigger some contract thing you know what i mean he's like i am i am just happy to experience basketball with a guy these younger guys that i like with these established pros that i really respect and jalen and joe joelle it almost feels kind of weirdly sentimental and it's like if this is going to work it's going to be because nurse puts each guy in the right position to succeed and they agree to do so and they they express themselves like it is i i can't even predict what this is i think a team of jalen vj tyrese and dean wade could probably make the playoffs they're not that deep but i think that they could at least get to the play-in that team if you have lebron james and joelle and bead added to that and joelle and bead is anything is anything like i think you you start to climb up the eastern conference standings pretty fast and then like you said when you get into series basketball i wouldn't want to play those guys yeah before this there's this as you celebrate the game take a deeper look at its roots the people grow in the grass paving the lots welding the goalposts inspecting every football the hard-working people that make every sunday possible carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game visit carhartt.com join the trades to learn more well i think i find myself more optimistic about joelle than i think i have been at any time in recent memory in part because they just rely on him less in the way you mentioned but also if anyone's life by the way i bet he did look trimmed as has been simmons as is as is everybody somewhere markel folds burying threes shanghai yeah yeah but like one of the problems with joelle is that nobody can tell him shit like he's been a pillar for this team for good and ill it's been very hard to pierce that in any way and so i think that's a really important thing to think about and i think that's a really important the voice of anyone get through to this kind of franchise player if you still want to consider him that way i just think it's such a meaningful thing i really don't know how else you would expect the joel situation to change in any way whatsoever unless you have the kind of relationship that you alluded to chris yeah well another big relationship was just it seems like a big draw for lebron was just to go play with maxi and obviously the clutch connection there is is pretty strong like you talk about relationships forming this team like that seems to be the critical relationship it's almost like it was a team formed not by like the math of mori but almost like the backdoor hollywood shenanigans of like knowing the right people it's almost like this network effect i but i do think that there's some sincerity to it he didn't choose luca you know like he did not choose to play with luca donchic he wasn't like please trade ad for luca that's great i feel like he probably thought he was like clearly being replaced with luca and that that they were explicitly saying like we're moving on he could have signed with the lakers for the same money as he got with the sixers if i'm reading cap sheets right like there's no reason why he couldn't be a minimum player on the lakers and fill out that roster so he has chosen of the blockbuster could have been to go to play with the warriors um say going to going to the knicks and getting to play in the garden 40 times a year uh anything go go to chicago and resurrect the the bulls after after jordan and rose like do what do any number of storybook finales he chose philly that must mean he really likes these guys like he must really like maxi i mean unless he's just flying blind and he's just like this seems good i threw a dart at the board philadelphia they could use me he found out the oil wells in dallas this is the thing y'all are used to the proximity of being here in studio we can go through that door and wheel in the rich whiteboard right now maxi top of the list if i remember correctly how much could i get for that whiteboard you know let's find out on the street is it that whiteboard or the whiteboard with all the fake names for the ringer that we had there we go i just think the basketball still think chase the night.com there you go potential there still i just i i've thought this the whole way through like leading up to his choice was just the basketball fit of it made just so so much sense and i you know the the you know the relationships and everything i think are a nice icing that that are going to help but like you know lebron playing in like a really helio focused type of game and i think that's going to be a really good game and i think that's going to i just didn't i never saw that being attractive i never saw him like wanting to play off of harden who's like really roll rigid luca obviously has his way that he wants to play this just seems to pull feed into the things that make him so distinct historically from anybody that's ever played the fact that he can kind of shape shift in all these high level ways and the absence of like what you were saying of like he no longer has this like i gotta be i gotta be like 2013 lebron who's like putting up 29 10 and whatever it is like he's willing to do that at this so it's just a nice alignment of the things that make him distinct all time and and uh where he is in his career there's usually a guy that makes it all work though which brings us to the question at hand at the end of the season i have down here we'll say that this guy was the linchpin the guy that made it all work not necessarily the best player or even the guy like who's going to step up the most in the playoffs or the best role player anything like that just the guy will be like that was the linchpin that got this team all on the same page who comes to mind for you than lebron could be lebron too anybody i think if i'll there you could choose almost any guy yeah i'm gonna go with edge comb because edge comb is still in his rookie deal and because edge comb is got a ceiling i don't know where it is i'm not saying he's dwayne wade i'm not saying like it's that big of a deal but like i do think that this is a time in a guy's career where he would be like so i get more shots next year and i play in more crucial moments and i have the ball and more end of game situations and like i want to start getting trusted as a leader on this team and all these things and now all of a sudden he's got arguably the greatest player of all time and jalen brown who talked his way out of boston probably because he wanted his own team in the first place and so where does he fall in in that pecking order can he bring defensive intensity on a nightly basis and do all the crazy awesome connective tissue stuff that he did last season that i think was such a breath of fresh air for him to be able to do that and i think that's where it was like finally a guy who doesn't feel like he's on the downturn of his career but is on the upswing and does he feel like this is the only is there only one ball guy it's not because i think he's going to have a bad attitude about it i think if he winds up scoring 11 points a game and and it's on a 52 win seat team i think he's going to be pretty satisfied with that but i think that his young legs his attitude his kind of effervescence and his willingness to sacrifice when he's probably got the most financially at risk not risk but to to risk in this situation i think it's a pretty big deal um there's you could pick almost every guy but i for some reason like his attitude at media day and all the guys kind of being like vj like was correcting lebron and telling him like where to be i was like this is this is pretty heady stuff yeah that's pretty awesome i i mean i think the tell of any championship team is like how many guys are overqualified for what they're asked to do and there's a lot of people who are overqualified there's a point at which that becomes a problem but if you have vj in this kind of role but then when you need him to he has a 25.9 like cat right exactly like that's the stuff that title winning teams are made of and in that vein i think maxi would be my pick for this because he can do the most and also has the most give to what he does where i mean i just think tyrus maxi is straight up one of the best shooters in the world and if you're that player and one of the fastest players in the league and certainly on the court on a given night he's the guy who's going to be asked to toggle it off and on depending on the situation and he's going to be asked to toggle it off and on who's available who's got it going who needs to be set up like a lot is going to be asked of him but i just think he can handle all of it and calibrate what he does so well i was going to say vj too for a lot of reasons just because like a lot of his role is going to be like go space the floor go do all the dirty work there has to be one guy or a handful of guys doing these things to stitch together all the superstar talents the only guy on the floor who's going to crash crash in from the three-point line and go for a follow-up dunk like really like on and he did that constantly like and you talked about this when he came out of the draft like just the energy he plays with the reckless abandoned like sort of mindset it almost seems like this is a nice little role for him if he's willing to accept it for a time i mean yeah like the personality intel on him was just off the charts and i think you see you're going to see that this year it is a question of who's going to be the measure of how much somebody is willing to compress i mean i've always seen a lot of derrick white qualities in vj and i kind of feel like that's like duane wade more as a concept well that's cool he's a way better athlete than derrick white but i just mean in his culture that is duane wade shut up but uh i mean honestly it might be jaylen honestly because i think jaylen is the guy who has the most like vj we know his career could go a number of ways jaylen's career has gone a certain way and he's got to the point where he got you know got the supermax it's kind of those types of deals imply a certain type of production and we know jaylen is pretty hard-headed in the way that he likes to play that's what led us to this live streams hit different and then every and depending on how he i think a lot hinges on how he reacts to what's going to go on here but if you're right and he's in like if you prove it mode lebron is going to maybe this all kind of the question is for me is like what does revenge look like for that guy is revenge beating the celtics in the playoffs or getting you know like going further than the celtics in the postseason lifting a trophy in a second city whatever it might be or is revenge being like i told you i was 28 a game you know like i'm not going to be like i'm not going to be like i'm not going to and i don't know i i don't know enough about him and i don't i think he's misunderstood in a lot of ways i even thought he was misunderstood in boston like i think that like we've like always got it at like basically paste narratives and storylines on the guys to make basketball make sense to us and it's like well this guy obviously wants this and that's why he can't have that but i don't know why he really left that team and i don't know what he's going to bring to philly and i don't know what he's going to bring to philly and i don't know and i think if he is just chill and is like this is a once in a career opportunity to play with like this particular roster and it's not going to last for the rest of my career i think it could really benefit him if he's like this is not what i signed up for um then i think it could be problematic and then you get into the whole nick nurse we have not tested nick nurse in several years you know like on one hand i'm i'm kind of confident like with what he did in 19 big mid-season additions to that team unimpeachable kawaii obviously not the the most manageable person figured out a way to like get the best out of him had like a a rabid fan base that had a lot of sentimental attachments to rosen who was out like you know just a lot of moving pieces but i haven't really seen nick nurse get like i don't know what the magnifying glass result is for nick first round victory which i you know possibly was related to was possibly related to like the fact that like tatum wasn't really at full strength yet i don't know what nick nurse does against eric spolstra or you know um i was going to say mike brown but like i mean like any top-notch eastern conference coach in a playoff series i think i haven't seen it a lot if you talk to the hardcore tactician nerds, the stuff that he did after 19, mean people are more obsessed with like the the the you mentioned them against the celtics like the raptor celtic series i know that chess match between him and brad stevens is like legendary among the like really crusty dorks yeah see i don't even feel like he gets that spolstra rep like that you know like that rep of like oh he's he's he's the goat with like the whiteboard yeah like i didn't know but you know and are the guys gonna listen to him is he got an idea of how he wants him to play that doesn't sync with how they want to play or is this like a you guys are pros like do this and like i'll set up the defense i have no idea i think he's pretty qualified to coach all of the versions of the sixers which is really the important thing and like that we talked about all the star pairings but i think one of the biggest questions if we want to like pour a little water on this is like is are we positive there's enough joelle insurance here because it's one thing to say oh they they have lebron and jalen brown and maxi that's great like we get very quickly into a dumb bona is one of the most important players in the rotation or very quickly into like i guess ariel hook porty is playing playoff minutes yes or lebron is playing the five or dominic barlow is back in the mix like i think those are the things that he's gonna have to mitigate over the course of the year and kind of establishing not just that they can work but the team's confidence that they can work i think nurse's impulse usually is to just play his best players 40 minutes a game and i think that will ultimately be the solution for a lot of this and like honestly they drop dead like they can't some of these guys can't do that but that's kind of the advantage of building toward this moment it's like all these guys are bought in and wanting to take advantage of what is going on right so i i think it plays to their strengths that we even mentioned like anthony's like there's the icing on the cake guys and it makes you for all the superlatives that we pointed out i do wonder about like about the five spot like you were saying like if joelle's not there and some of the teams that they're going to deal with i brought this up over and over again like i think miami is going to be a weird pain in the ass for this group because they have hyper strengths in some of the weak spots for this this is as excited as i've been about eastern conference basketball in my adult life yeah i think i can't remember another time where i've been like on any given night in the eastern conference down to like washington it's going to be exciting and it's going to be like at least in those first few weeks you're just going to be like oh okay so this is happening like you know what i mean like i'm just so thrilled i'm even like kind of like what the hell are the bucks gonna look like like i know probably not good but so many teams are either it's like new coach or almost entirely new roster or a new superstar on the roster and there's a lot more established talent in the eastern conference i don't think there's going to be a lot of nights off no in that conference so then you get into like you want to get your ass kicked by the knicks and and the celtics on you know multiple like nights in a week like how are you like people are going to have to be more engaged with the regular season i think because i don't think there's going to be a lot of coasting and i don't think i don't see a ton of like oh this guy's not playing i'm not watching tonight it's like no there's a there's like four guys on washington i want to watch tonight i want to watch tonight i want to watch tonight i want to watch tonight yeah the nuts are trying this year you actually have to be engaged so we have the the sixers at four before you go just would you do you feel like that's fair would you pitch them higher or lower no i think that's probably right i think if you put if you go spurs thunder knicks in some combination i i can't make an argument to get higher than that i think there's a little bit for me like rankings aside prove it like i want to see i want to see these guys like together and i want to see the culture and what does that look like and what does that mean um so we will have we will know that the sixers have proven it when we tune into a jalen brown live stream and you are one of the guys behind him that's right that's right i can't wait that's right it's a good career pivot for you uh thank you guys so much for having me of course this is awesome i'll see you guys man this episode is brought to you by sam's club during the holidays everyone's in a club the last minute gift givers club the cool aunts club the food coma club whatever holiday club you're in the last minute gift givers club the cool aunts club the food coma club whatever sam's club is the club that helps you pull it off need to get a meal on the table in under two hours done shopping for the brands they want like aura ring and kitchen aid without blowing your budget check and check sam's club helps you make the most of the holidays come join us sam's club all right we've hit number three we're on the home stretch here three teams to go number three i think it shouldn't be much of a surprise but the new york knicks that could be a surprise the world champion new york knicks are number three excuse me you're doing the real thing and kyle's doing the fake thing making fun of what you're saying that's what i'm saying i don't i don't think it's worth mocking well here's the thing i just i i didn't want to put the knicks so high when we started doing this because i think the idea of repeating is just it's so tough brutal right now and we're on a stretch of what is it eight in a row new champions adam silver says it every single time he gets on a deus if only to trumpet all the things that he's been doing deus slowly slowly pushing aside all the the really unsavory stuff happening in the ownership ranks but that's a whole nother story uh happy to get into that whenever you'd like honestly use your podcast i think so i namely i think if you were to ask me if they're going to repeat i would say no just for that sheer reason um but not only in the east but overall it just feels like there's a lot more volatility they all of a sudden feel like a short thing yet again the only thing that really changes for the team is back up center yeah uh and here's the thing on top of that is that the team is not there's this one tweet from ian begley going around in the preseason i want to read it to you because i think it really kind of opened my mind to the possibilities for the next season uh asked about nick nick's offense and what may look different over the course of the season mike brown cites more carl anthony towns at the elbow and as a facilitator more pick and roll opportunities for og and mikhail bridges and more in a nobie minutes at backup center and it's like oh there's more here you know like something moved when i read that i'm just like i used to have this thing where i go and i would advise i i had this conversation with a friend who was like sort of a basketball fan and she was going to be going to like a party where they were going to be watching a game and she was like i don't know how to talk about basketball and i was like just what you should do i said is pick a small forward for one of the teams and look on your phone and see who it is and just say they should play him at the five and i said and just watch as the people in the room look at you like does she what the because it's one of the it's one of the like on it's just michael k grill chris oh yeah ben simmons before he officially became a center it's a story tradition there's something it is it is definitely a form of like nerd basketball conversation see alice where it's just kind of like everybody and all the guys in the room are like what wow yeah yeah it does get everybody going especially og i was about to say of that class probably the one of the best to ever do it as far as small forwards who could play center go and then when you think about what the alternatives are you mentioned it just as the biggest change in the rotation they lose mitchell robinson who was an important part of their playoff formula they're replacing with andre drummond i would say the difference between those two guys is like a guy who rebounds versus a guy whose rebounds actually matter and that's that's a tough fall off like andre drummond is gonna i think perform okay in some games but not every matchup is for him i think overall the box store kind of overstates what he actually contributes whereas i kind of like mitch breaks teams and they're gonna miss that for sure where do you see the delineation between meaningless rebounds and meaningful rebounds do you think for those two guys specific well some of it is just like are these contested or not are you just like the big guy who's nearest around while two teammates who could also get this rebound stand by and i think andre drummond has some of that like look historically he's pulled down a ton of rebounds i don't think anyone's like clamoring for andre drummond to be in the hall of fame and i think there's a reason for that which is some of it's like when you like the on offs as far as team rebounding when you're on the floor historically andre drummond isn't having a massive impact on that stuff and so yes he's getting a lot individually but is he making a his team a better rebounding team and the answer is usually no yeah i will say it's like the one spot though and when i saw that there was much more wrinkles to explore with this lineup it did remind me of the fact that mike brown was this first year last year and there are still a lot of guys who could still do more and if anything that was one of our concerns when this team came together is that it felt like especially og i remember in particular like wanted to expand his offensive game and that was always kind of the tension with him was like they really shouldn't do that man but now we're at a point where like they have a little bit of success they have a little bit more breathing room i think you could be a little bit more creative and if anything that might be a way to counterbalance some of the more chemistry based contractual stuff that i think might seep into this team like the disease of more is like literally the the when it comes to the finances of this team is like ultimately if they don't make it is the second apron the primary culprit not because they had to get rid of mitchell robinson which is like a factor yeah but also because we're starting to see the signs of it filtering into guys wanting extensions and so cat is currently eligible for one seems like they're at odds as we're recording this uh the reporting suggests like they're nowhere close i think josh hart also eligible like guys want to get paid for having the success and this is where the second apron comes in it's like no you're not doing that this is your team and you're not doing that and if you if they want to go elsewhere to get the money that's what's going to happen i would say look if there's a reason that the knicks don't get to the finals or don't repeat there's a bunch of stuff that could happen for one there's just like a lot of really good teams in the east this year and it's plausible that one of them is just a little better than the knicks this time that's in play i also just would not blame the second apron for any of this and i think it's it's not a disease of more to me it is a disease of jim dolan he is the one who drew the line there is literally no mechanism preventing him from paying Carl. the towns as much as he possibly wants up to the max josh hart whatever josh hart is asking for the knicks could pay him agree to that right now with no actual penalty it's one of these things where the second apron is designed to prevent teams from adding players yeah the knicks have a championship team in their prime they don't need to add players they don't really even need to replace that many players other than mitchell robinson which they've already tried to do and one of the biggest penalties is what it does to your draft pick so it freezes the farthest away one and if you're still over it after multiple years like then it goes back to the end of the first round they literally punted out of the first round this past year because they didn't want to add the finances of a first round they were trying to trade to like 31 they were trying to get a spot later they are inviting some of the penalties of the second apron already willingly signing up for it when i'm just going to take the radical stance that if you have a championship team and the players are all still really good you're going to be able to get a spot in the second apron you pay and keep them and that should be that like why you're trying to antagonize some of the most beloved players now in nick's franchise history josh hart is now on record saying if this doesn't get done by february we might have a problem like i just don't know why you would court that kind of disaster coming off of the high point in the history of the new york knicks there's no history of him courting disaster literally in the finals he brought trump to the game yeah there's no history of that no of course not it's miraculous that they got it done and i'm so happy for new york fans but it's also kind of funny to like zoom out and be like there's there's the hilarious like tim robinson banana suit like we're looking for who who did this second apron thing it's like hiding behind this boogeyman uh especially with his spinning history it's like deeply deeply comical and it just kind of goes to show you that no matter how good the vibes are when it comes down to like taking care of your families it's kind of like you know at some point no vibe is strong enough definitely not i just i get why teams like the nuggets are trying to navigate the second apron in a particular way they have a lot of needs they need to address the knicks have a complete team like they are ready to roll and contend right this second all they have to do is keep these guys on the same page and mike brown has shown if you if you have everybody feel like they're taken care of then they're willing to do that and they have the skill and the talent to do it yeah or go into it for one year like show that you're willing to bring things back to give it another try and when it fails then you can start selling off pieces i guess the counter would be that it becomes more difficult when you're over the second apron to match contracts to sign someone to an extension and then trade them later that whole like push it down the road becomes more difficult but why are we worrying about what's four years down the line when we're talking about our title defense this is where like i feel myself getting worked up about this because we both got worked up i mean i shouted i'm okay yeah i like i think it has really been a privilege to watch this next team become this next team and it is felt like a multi-year organic kind of process where you saw all of these pieces falling into place and they fucking did it like they did everything that we doubted they could do in the regular season that we did not see for this team and to come off of the high of that and in the hangover be like well i guess we're just not going to pay carl anthony towns after he helped win us the nba finals his tweak was the pivot point that caused it to click into place we're talking about in the it's easy to forget that you know in the first round they had a crisis come to jesus moment that he was the pivot point that they had completely and then had like a game winning deflection like came up with big play after big play after big play and you're getting cheap with this guy the other thing is how much money did they print just in new york let alone globally from winning that title yep like they could pay 20 carl anthony towns easily with the amount of money that they're probably driving right now and so i agree with you overall the owners helped out other owners with that it was for no one other than other owners to get out of the to have a built-in excuse to not pay past a um but i guess the question becomes like with the team that they have assembled do we think that's gonna like affect things enough like do we think that's going to impact carl's play a guy who's like emotional i would say he has prone to swings was much better about that last year just seemed really dialed in so like maybe he can like lean back on that sort of experience but it just feels like an unnecessary wrench in the works when this team needs everything in concert to work because when the flow and the blunder is going like that is their strength yes and because because of that emotion with carl and other players on this team like they can be a little dramatic in the middle of the season we've seen them almost every year have some weird like players only meeting some bizarre skids a moment where they are not together and so just like throwing a stick of dynamite in and just like adding that on to everything else like they were already going to have a moment in this season where even after the title guys are frustrated guys aren't feeling like they're being utilized correctly like maybe they tap into some of those new developments that mike brown was talking about but the other ones get backburnered and og or mikhail feel a way about it like that's all normal basketball stuff i just want there to be normal basketball stuff of the players that we've kind of talked around is there one you guys find most intrigued by maybe stepping out from their previous role like really expanding into something else in a significant way or even just like a minor way and in like a like a nice little wrinkle that they've added i would think it would be minor honestly because this frame work is just so locked in and you mentioned prime and i've brought this up on other shows that it's just highly unusual to have an entire top nine in their primes like so the huge variation no i i think that is it og that's most primed to like you were talking about playing at the five i'm trying to just think of where the openings are really i don't see a ton honestly for like significant shift i i think what i would be interested in is less like the micro oh i want to see og do this or mikhail do that i want to know how the knicks would approach a season like this if the slate were clean and everything felt like it was taken care of right like mike brown having those kinds of initiatives on the mind is a good sign but it's like for a next team that always felt like it was trying to prove something or put out fires coming off of a title with all of that pressure relief like what are your priorities in 82 games it's a question for every title team the answer is usually get through it alive so you can get back to april but i think this group is you know they're going to have a lot of pressure and they're going to have a lot of pressure and uniquely positioned to try on a lot of different hats and to enable guys in different ways and i think the cat example is a great one about using him at the elbow because that was the tweak that opened up their playoff run it barely saw any momentum or time or usage whatsoever in the regular season and so give me 82 games of iterating on that and see what cat can come up with and how the other guys get used to reacting off of it even more that's where the openings are i mean i agree with mike brown uh i think you know i think that that's where the it's going to be less operating with the ball in your hands and it's going to be more like where can i carve out value in response to that kind of frontier of offense that that they've discovered and they have a lot of mind there i think there's a lot a lot more uh depth to that i think i think the flip side of their kind of iffy regular season is just that like maybe they figured something out and that was just the flip that got switched and all of a sudden this is a steamroll type of team like we realized the way to play in order to just like kind of trounce whatever else teams are building in the east and we could just do that and we could just do that and we could just do that and we could dominate i think it's a little more complicated because of all the things you mentioned also i don't know how they feel about jalen brunson becoming a song and dance man uh clearly he has a second career just building now that he's an snl host did you guys watch i've seen clips same he's a natural he's fine he is naturally funny yeah it didn't it didn't quite it didn't quite feel right it's tough it's tough for the true celebrity like non-native acting host to sell that okay but he did he did his best he didn't enter the athlete snl pantheon i don't i don't i'd have to go through the names i think bill did this already it's peyton manning i think it's probably at the top yeah barkley was also barkley was really good i mean the barkley nirvana photos are legendary amazing stuff we're clearly ready to discuss this well i mean in light of whether the knicks are equipped to just like absolutely work some of these other eastern conference teams with the best that they bring to the table sixers knicks i mean we get it opening night we get it twice in the first 10 days of the season and then it kind of goes on ice for a while we don't see it again until february and then we get it twice in the first 10 days of the season and then it kind of goes on ice for a while we don't see it again until february i'm fucking locked in on on this matchup specifically i just i cannot wait to see it i can't wait to see what these two teams do with each other because you would think a team that has mikhail and og and josh hart has kind of all the options you might theoretically need to put the clamps on the sixers very uniquely suited to do so and at the same time if joel and beat is healthy is just like a living target for jalen brunson in the pick and roll in ways that would be very fun to watch like i really want to see the burden of proof is on the sixers to show that they can hang with the knicks the next one the title they deserve that yeah but i kind of want to see if the knicks can big boy them a little bit too and and show them that it's great that you got all this talent this is a real cute thing you've assembled but this this machine we got is something else one last thing before we get out here uh less chalamet this year i think would be good for everyone i just i feel like i've seen him way too much i got bad news we're heading into dune three season you know he's gonna be out there he's gonna be moving all right yeah i mean spike has earned it i think some of the guys who have been around for a while ben siller or whatnot like they've earned the stripes in a way that like i feel like chalamet has become the spike almost like peer and i just feel like i would have need years spent on the baseline not just being a knicks fan i know the photo with lindry fields is like an all-timer and all that like i'm not questioning his credibility as a knicks fan more just like like play your way into significant minutes and then we could talk it's just like play your way into significant minutes yeah he was he was traveling with the team he was there the whole playoff run i just i don't I don't think you can knock any of his sicko status. I mean, if I were in his position, I would 100% just walk in there and I wouldn't be doing the exact same thing. Chalamet, Mariska Hargitay, like, they're minted. Like, they're there. Too much Chalamet all at once, you know? It happened during the Marty Supreme run. I feel like Marty hurt you is what it is. I actually didn't mind Marty. Okay. It's just been a lot of Chalamet the past few years. I need variety in my life. I need the spice of life. I'll see you for doing three day one at IMAX. Okay. I'll be there. All right. Top two teams in the preseason power rankings. Rob and I had the same number one. You had the Spurs number one. And they end up, as a result, at number two. So I was looking back at last year and specifically at some of the over-unders because it might be hard to remember at this stage. But people were expecting the Spurs to be like a spunky upstart going into last season. Yeah. Their over-under was, in preseason, 44 and a half games. How'd they do? They won 62, were second in the West, beat the Thunder in the Western Conference Finals, and went to the Finals. That preseason over-under ranked them 13th in the NBA. And it's so head-spinning how fast this has all changed. And so for that reason, I've questioned my pick of the Thunder. Obviously, Rob and I picked them to be number one because that was the start of things. This is still an incredibly young team playing beyond its years. And maybe they just. Everyone just gets a little bit better. And then all of a sudden, we're talking about some historic shit. I think, ultimately, it came down to just looking back at that series. And I was just like, if Jalen Williams is healthy, would things have been different? And that leaned me to the Thunder by a little bit of a hair. Where did you guys fall in this one-two debate? I mean, this is impossible. What made you favor the Spurs? I think that they uncovered a lot of things in the playoffs. I think they have ascended stars. I think they have. Another potential first-team All-NBA guy who is literally, like. I mean, just lightly. What's less than. I think he's. Ooh, there's a weird clip for me to have out there. He's Dylan Harper. Hansy Kyle, man. What am I saying? Yeah, there we go. Strike that from the record. I think they have the best basketball player in the world on their team that is still figuring things out. Who had a very invaluable playoff experience. And he is absolutely the, like, die-hard sicko type of person who would go to the lab and look at what teams threw at him. Sure. And try to solve those things. Victor Wimonyama last year, like, among players who. I had this pulled up from another one that we were just doing that guarded over 1,000 pick-and-roll possessions. He is the lowest points per possession by a mile. And I think he's going to continue to get better. I think they answered their stuff at the four spot. I just think that for a team that is special like OKC, they just are running into a. I don't even think generational covers it. I think he's a. He is a once-in-history type of basketball. He's a basketball player that they just happen to be running alongside of. I want to talk. We'll table kind of the thunder part of that conversation. Because I think the bottom line is they have room to grow to, levels to go to, especially with their stars. And I mean, certainly with some of the young role players as well. The Spurs are right here. Like, if it's anything but these two teams in the Western Conference Finals, I'd be pretty surprised, assuming health. I do wonder a little bit about the scar tissue of the ways in which the Spurs lost. There's a version where. They have those, like, brutal turnovers, terrible misses, the De'Aaron Fox layup, and it's just, like, a thing they overcome and they learn from and they crystallize and they become an even more stable and solid and hardened version of themselves. And then there's the one where it's, like, when that moment comes up again, it's in the back of everybody's mind in a nagging way. And, like, we just don't know. They're too young. We're going to have to see when they're put through their paces, when they're put in really high leverage situations again. And I hate saying this because they're not going to happen until May. You know, it's like a regular season game that's a little tight is not the NBA Finals in a two-possession game. It's just not the same thing. And so we're just going to have to wait on a lot of this stuff. But how everyone reacts to being a little too wild when you needed to be incredibly careful, that's really all I have my eye on with the Spurs team that otherwise is great at basically everything. I think the other thing is just the De'Aaron Fox, Dylan Harper stuff, which is the type of thing it feels like is relegated to first take. And so you want to, like, wave your. You want to wave your hand at it because it's such red meat, like, who will start, who's the more important, who's the alpha, that sort of, like, vein of question. But I think it's an important one. And Dylan Harper made that incredibly clear in an interview recently with GQ where he. Well, somewhat clear because then he walked it back, sort of. Well, I think we know where he stands on that. I think he wants to start. Sure. Which means that they're starting three guards. It's funny because I think we went into this whole thing expecting, well, they start Champagny over. Or Tobias Harris. And now I think the question is, do they have to start the three guards with Vassell and Wemby? And it's just, like, a little bit of messiness that I think, like, adds a different element to this. And so as meticulously plotted out, as good as they've been at nailing draft picks recently and assembling this team, like, yeah. I mean, certain guys want certain things. Like, it just comes down to, like, a human element. I mean, I think there's a lot of, like, have to there that isn't have to. Like, you can bring De'Aaron Fox off the bench. It signals something very particular. And that seems way more complicated. I don't know how he'll take it. And, like, Devin Vassell is also a guy who I don't, like, I'm sure he wants to start. I'm sure it's important to him to start. Would be a great bench player if you can pull that off and manage the egos involved. I would, I still think Dylan Harper is going to start the season coming off the bench. I, I'm not, like, 100% confident in that. I just feel like they're going to continue to try to make it work for a little while. And maybe even just that gesture can help pacify some of the people involved. But it is. It's one of the higher wire acts they've had to navigate so far interpersonally. Like, this has been a pretty charmed start as far as, like, the people and their sense of personal pride have been concerned with the Spurs. There have been random blood clots and injuries and other things happening. But these are a lot of guys who have their heads screwed on straight. And if the Spurs treat them with that respect, I still think there's room here for everyone to fall into a pretty natural role. It just may not be what they are right now. And it's the lame thing of, like, saying whenever a series goes 4-1. Or whatever it is, when it's lopsided in terms of the final tally. It's like, if you watch those games in the finals, it was clear that they just were very close in terms of, like, they were losing the second unit minutes. That was, like, a huge thing. They would just surge out in front. Like, in most, I think every single game followed, like, the same script. And then they would just kind of, they didn't have the stability. And a lot of the things, if you were going to argue against the Spurs, hypothetically, we'll do it here. Because I had them number one. Obviously, I'm not doing that. They had hierarchy issues, I think, that were ultimately what caused. A lot of those late game things of just, like. And you saw it throughout the playoffs. It was just like, okay, we've got a last possession here. Wimby, who's bringing the ball up? Dylan Harper doesn't just drive the ball when he has an advantage. He pitches it back to who he thinks he should. I think that those things they're going to have to sort of over the course of the season figure out. And then with the second unit thing, I think they brought in enough guys that they can build up more credible second units. So that those problems are a little more answered by the end of the season. Also, Brian and Billy Donovan joined the staff. We should mention that, too. That's a nice bolster. It's just kind of organizationally, you've got a lot of mature minds in an already kind of mature, stable organization. I would bet on them figuring it out. I just think Vic is such a stable center of the organization that people will kind of just lockstep to whatever he does. And this could be the sort of thing where Harper has been vocalizing this stuff internally. It just got out publicly, and they've been able to manage it thus far. Maybe they're already ahead of this and have been talking about this. But on paper, it seems like what they did. What they did is add a complete rocket ship of a team and added exactly what they needed with front court help, getting two draft picks in there. One who might not even play and one to soak up minutes in the interim, plus Tobias Harris. And so it's like, whatever we needed, we fixed. Plus, we have this awesome team. It all works. But I do wonder if these sorts of fine-tuned human elements might undercut everything like this. It feels like, I want to call it the let's stay together for the kids theory, where it's like, in theory, that sounds great. We'll suppress all these mounting issues in order to wait a couple of years until they're out of the nest. But looking back on it, maybe you caused some undue trauma by staying together. And so I think that is potentially what they're up against with the Fox Harper thing. Can I ask you a question? Who are the kids? Is the winning the kids? I didn't think this through. In a lot of ways, they themselves are the kids. I think it's like the younger core left behind. If we're assuming that Fox is eventually. going to age out of this era of team and there will be another level to this team, it's just like, what happens with Harper long-term with his faith in the franchise? That's completely hypothetical. If that's the decision, is how De'Aaron Fox feels versus how Dylan Harper, who seems like he's going to be one of the most important members of the Spurs for the foreseeable future, feels like that's not really an issue. That choice is already made. And I say that knowing Dylan Harper, who we rave about on this podcast all the time, does not know how to run a team in the slightest way. That's not in his skill set right now. He is a buzzsaw attacker, and he's one of the best guard finishers that we have in the league right now. All of that stuff is super impressive. He is mostly operating in straight lines. And running a team, especially one that's this talented, that's this loaded, that's this young, that requires a more elliptical approach that is just not within him at the moment. Yeah, I mean, we saw it in the playoffs in the moments where the Knicks were loaded up and ready for him. Those were different situations. then, right? running those straight lines that you were talking about but we also saw in the moments where he hit gigantic shots he's got gigantic brass balls in big situations and we saw over and over again some of the best biggest longest switchiest defenders in the league look absolutely helpless trying to guard him so i i just kind of wonder i kind of wonder if if you're we also didn't mention carter bryant is another guy who has potential there's there's a lot of stuff there to answer it's like if you did decide at some point like maybe fox shouldn't be here did they answer the backup five question is cornet going to continue because that ended up being against some of the best teams in the league they were losing those minutes and that he was kind of the center of a lot the literal center position and the center of those problems well can i propose something to you a la uh fox fox for gaffer just make carter bryant your backup let's just throw him out there i mean it's funny because when i saw that first round series against the blazers they were throwing small ball lineups out of necessity and i was like these are pretty interesting because there's some like carter bryant's like for being so young i just marvel at like what a big boy he is like he marvels at what a big boy he is yes oh we're gonna get arrested um well i mean even in last regular you see how this looks jesus christ um even in last regular season they were like okay we'll play harrison barnes as a small ball five sometimes like they they want to build in those looks i don't know that they quite have the personnel for it just yet but maybe we'll see tobias there sometimes like i don't know it's just the rebounding is a tough one to manage and that's where you would really need the help of like stefan castle rebounding overdrive for those minutes or something like that to make ends meet what does progress look like for castle like what's like number one on your list of things you want to see from him 15 less offensive chaos 15 more defensive chaos i like it uh really the one thing the spurs don't do and it's a stylistic choice is they don't force a lot of turnovers and that's like again they're playing into wimby they're playing contain it all makes total sense but you can contain and still be super aggressive chasing from behind and i think castle if he can find a way to turn that up without fouling too much that could be a real weapon that is like really speeding opponents up as they try to get into their stuff foul trouble did end i was trying to jog my memory he did have some situations in the playoffs if i'm not mistaken right where the foul trouble kind of ate into how he was playing and he was trying to get into his stuff how he was his style of play he runs into it and then he gets a little tentative early in the season though i remember us talking about i'd like to see the review it just their style i feel like they were very aggressive because they had wimby behind them if i'm not mistaken but i'd have to look that up did you get the sense that they backed off of that oh just by the end of the year i mean they were if i remember kind of like one of the bottom teams in the league in terms of forcing turnovers so that's another bit of intrigue i think the big one that we're kind of keeping in the pocket here i think he's not already in the betting odds i think he should be uh the mvp favorite at this stage i'm curious for you guys like how does he make that leap i think there's a credible case that he just plays like he did last year and just plays enough minutes and he's already probably on the ballot if not number one but like what are we hoping that he kind of adds here in order to round things out i mean go-to offense is the one like easily dialed up mid-range specifically offense that he can access that's hard to take away it's really the one thing they didn't have and i think when you're talking about those moments that kyle brought up of guards trying to defer to the maybe the wrong guy at the wrong time or trying to figure out if it's their turn to attack a lot of that stuff gets settled if victor webb and yama has a reliable turnaround jumper or an elbow jumper he feels comfortable getting to and taking on a consistent basis yeah i think that's it he has such a wide buffet of things that are kind of like this oh i could i could do this i could do this it's just a little too wide it's a little too wide and a little and the depth isn't quite what you would want i think it's just a little too wide and a little too wide and a little too wide i think he needs to kind of shrink it deepen some of those basic things i mean i've loved the idea of him just like operating at the slot like a la kind of katie dirk type stuff um and then just kind of finding ways it's it's just we saw him too whenever he would get tired whenever the knicks would get physical with him it's just his first instinct in those situations is all right i'm going to take this you know i'm just going to like revert back to taking like pull-up jumpers when he does that the nights when they're going in you're just like all right we're just in the presence of god uh but the nights where when but then when he starts to kind of miss those it's kind of it's a it's a oh my god like i mean early when he was a rookie i remember i wrote about this i thought that that like highlight scoop that he was doing to his left hand it was like unstoppable and i feel like he's kind of stopped going to that as much it's just he has so many options i think it's it's it's narrowing it circling back to that yeah it's it's the offensive repertoire but it's also like how long he's being able to stay on the court and we saw that certainly in the nba final but like this is a guy hearkening back to like how much progress there still is with this team with these key figures didn't average over 30 minutes a game last year in the regular season and so like if he's just on the court more and i am the prime candidate to get sucked in by the off-season workout photos you see him just like with a tan for france he looks taller all of a sudden like we're talking about everyone growing two inches without ever growing two inches like it seems like he could be like seven six at this stage yeah and we wouldn't be able to do that we wouldn't know and he's like he's definitely filled out there's muscular definition and so like he seems like the guy who takes who would take the rejection of the final seriously and if he just like makes little improvements here with the offensive game but also just like his physicality wasn't able to do that last off off season because the blood clot like that could matter a lot we talked about the second unit being a huge issue if he's just on the court a little bit more that mitigates that some i think a lot of what needs to change are like very subtle hosted just things to make it feel more official and like like the 30 minutes a game thing is one of those things like it's so stupid but the fact that if he plays 30.2 minutes per game instead of 29.2 minutes per game i actually think it will make a voting difference for for mvp yeah what is that over the course of 70 games three there just like literally there's something about the 29 that i think people like oh my like he's not playing enough minutes like when you compare him to Shea or Jokic or Luka or whoever and I also think in this in a similar vein them beating the thunder affirmed a candidacy going into this year of course it's a regular season award it's only based on this season that's what it should be that's the framing but when you were talking to voters last time around and trying to understand the state of the race there was a lot of like oh what Wemby's doing is awesome and unbelievable but like is it as real as what Shea is as Jokic is like there's I think the reason he was getting bumped on that pecking order is because he was a young player who hadn't proven it on the highest possible stages yet and after his run through the playoffs like that is gone like that argument has disappeared now he is a peer with the other greats in the NBA and if you're just looking box score to box score impact to impact you're not going to find many guys who really compete with him and they weathered a lot I mean it wasn't fluky it was they they got a lot of good information from that run because those series if we we forget that like he was in and out I mean it was just a real odyssey getting through the like with the elbow and him hitting his head and the it was just yeah the woman who turns the pigs the people in the yeah they that one time yeah that Luke Cornette got turned into a pig that was wild it was yeah it was uh they had to endure a whole lot I just yeah I think it's the minutes thing like the clear like line of demarcation there but it's also like the minutes he's playing but he's completely worn down it's just like you saw that like everything just crater in those finals games where all of a sudden you could see him just not giving as much because he was just so tired and then things just fell apart from that he just means so much to the Spurs he means so much to the NBA at this stage like and so if he's just like if he's he's able to weather a little bit more if he's just able to make natural progression like yeah it means just so much but also I don't know how much of that is realistic like so much of our conversation has been okay Wemby should do this we need him to develop the go-to offense I mean Stephon Castell has to be a better table setter as well as far as getting them into stuff or De'Aaron Fox has to be a bit like for the steady hand he had his errant moments to be sure and so if you're trying to find ways to make Wemby a better conditioned athlete sure if you're trying to find ways to get him through games in one piece and in better like have his wind about him having other guys actually do things in a way where it doesn't feel like he has to bail it out that's going to go a long way too like it's just the list of guys who can be your number one offensive option and your number one defender with a bullet and are over seven feet tall historically that list is extremely short just just him rolling as an offense in and of itself and we saw that over and over again but that's a ton of effort that takes a physical toll against against a team like the Knicks against a team like the Thunder like you can you just can only do that so often and so much book is going to be out too I think teams if they weren't already they're going to be targeting trying to wear him down every single possession this is his Kareem era thing they did the exact same thing with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar where they just started beating the shit out of him so I think we're going to see an interesting response from him this year anybody else you want to talk about here we didn't talk as much about the front court guys especially the ones that they've added we talked a lot about to buy his hairs and other pods it's surprisingly enough well I mean let's go just to that spot I mean if you let's say they're going to keep two guards whether it's Fox and Castle or Harper and Castle uh Vassell would you want to start Tobias Harris or would you want to continue to start Julian champagne like or Carter Bryant like who do you like in that four spot I like champagne now I like Harris later in games I like Carter Bryant for the future yeah is how I would stagger it I think champagne it earned the right to do it and I think the one criticism we've had about him is just his consistency I think when he's on he could be in fuego dare I say yeah like drug testable like this guy's hitting too many threes right suspicious right and i think twice harris is the problem solver is the veteran you want there when you need to turn to a steady hand i think car brian is like that guy's the future man yeah uh like there's something he has something and i could see him i mean how much they're going to be able to play him with so many guys and so many options is a big question but like that guy earned spots as a rookie i can't imagine what he's going to do in year two but he also made a ton of minimal stuff it's a longer game for him i think for sure and just i think you're just kind of claw machining what tobias did late clock for the pistons yeah and bringing it over to uh to the spurs i think he's just gonna and when we're talking about like the hierarchy of like where's the ball going you know it's fox like over pursuing it at times just trying to figure out like whose whose line is it anyway at this late stage in the game i think that tobias is going to bring a little bit more certainty in kind of a contained situation where even like harrison barnes was like not ready to do definitely what the crazy thing is the guy that we didn't mention in this shuffle or just at all is the reigning sixth man of the year kelton johnson who might be on the outside looking in of some of these discussions i assume he's going to play but like his role seems to be winnowing well certainly undercut somewhat by especially if tobias is coming off the bench that's eating into kelton's opportunity but i mean he's still part of the reason i like a lot of the second unit i think the combination of kelton carter bryant dylan harper assuming he's still coming off the bench or whichever guard is there or vassell i mean i like mclaughlin fine i'm not gonna go crazy with it but basically luke cornett and the center spot are kind of its own question all the other backup spots feel like they have really good options there anything else with the spurs i think we just about covered it we named a lot of guys they they brought in i don't know how much these dudes are going to play but they just the dudes who are going to just chip in minutes um with you know they brought in your yukon rookie guy with taris reed and quaint so i think you were alluding to him you might not even play with him but they're just the dudes who are going to this year he's just kind of a longer term bet probably with with bryant there's a lot to like here so i get putting them number one rob and i ultimately went with the thunder um rob what's the case for you uh the thunder gave away three guys and they might be more talented somehow right i just think we we know who the stars are we know what they do well we know the like how tenacious this defense is and how it can just smother teams and choke the life out of them and what we don't know is what a lot of guys are doing and what we don't know is what they're doing and what they're any of these young guys they're going to incorporate are going to be able to do when you get into like the nicola tobich the thomas sorber either the rookies if they're going to play and be a part of this rotation healthy j-dub mixed with healthy aj mitchell we really haven't seen and so we're building playmaker on playmaker on playmaker role player on role player on role player what for what was already the most accomplished team in the western conference last regular season and a defending champion with the reigning mvp on it so seems pretty good you would think that they like lost the net by giving away three rotation players but if anything like the net just like moved up an inch because they just still have this depth of talent it's a little bit younger and probably less reliable and some of these young players haven't played before topich hasn't played sorber hasn't played they're already like slowly bringing them back even in the training camp situation so we'll see how much they even play for this team but it does feel like now we're at a point where they're doing their own version of like the superstars are getting more it just so happens that their superstars are like particularly good at the game potentially their sixth man or jalen williams coming back and playing i think williams would have mattered a lot in the series against the spurs i also think like he's going to matter more for this team because he is one of the few real hefty wings that they have left over that used to be the loot door spot he had the barrel chest was able to guard up a little bit more more physical they want to turn things over to case and wallace and i think the time has come for that and certainly case and wallace thinks the time has come for that and san preste has been very open about this being an opportunity for him so we'll see but it's like you're opening up opportunity for guys who've already proven things and still have a lot of upper like stuff to get to and so i get it it's just i guess it's a little less margin for error but like if you're the deepest team in recent history if sacrificing three guys really like losing much margin for error it's it's interesting because you're right people's eyes dart to the trade-off of the aaron wiggins isaiah joe thing and then they look at the you know the jared mccain and the uh and and aj mitchell's but really wallace is the guy that often gets lost in the shuffle because he's a quiet guy he's understated he kind of just moves with the flow of what they do and he's just a good soldier for the okc style and the way they go but yeah i mean he was one of the dudes who in the playoffs was just rock steady fearless making big shots um it'll be interesting to see and i've kind of posited this before that shay's miles i have wondered if this is a year where they come to an inflection point where they're like you know he's going to be a good guy and he's going to be a good guy and he's got the two mvps they've had to ride him pretty hard in terms of his isolation offense being the center of what they do and they have this ascendant creator talent which is a really unique situation to be in when you get rid of guys who were part of a championship team you have these unproven creator guys that could just chip in and maybe make his life easier in a way where they don't have to tax shay so hard during the regular season i've just kind of wondered if that's going to be an opening for case and to sort of audition a little bit aj to take on a little bit more responsibility um and then yeah uh case it's it's a really really unique situation to me i would put j-dub in that group too it just feels like a natural point for especially case in or sorry especially aj and j-dub to do even more creation even more caring of the offense and i i hope topich can be a part of that i think it's going to be a little meager maybe out of the gate but maybe by the end of the season he can have his own kind of aj mitchell ascendance we'll for the thunder to be so much more dynamic even still and you get a taste of it just like by dropping jared mccain in there and what that does to the flow of the offense and it got disguised when j-dub had to leave the lineup and everything simplified a little bit but you put everyone back out there and shay who can be the best isolation player in the league but also maybe you're freeing him up off the ball a little more with these other guys getting involved the variety of ways in which j-dub can attack and especially if you can get to being a really high level three-point shooter that's going to help too and then chet we're just kind of waiting on um and maybe we will be waiting forever like maybe he's never going to be the offensive punch that we're desperate for him to become i'm not writing it off yet though i think there's still enough kind of like mid-range offense into like one and two step and dribble moves that he can make to really be a force for this team and i just think there's so many distracting things happening around him that he's going to have lots of opportunity to do it real evan mobley 2.0 situation with him going on very different temperament though certainly it's just he played he'd be he's one of the best two-way players in the world that we've talked about he just happens to play when wimpy's playing i think he's he's really really i try not to get too dramatic i've talked to tyler about this your temptation to feel like we're in crisis mode it's just like chet is the answer in most situations yes but he it's just this is the time he plays but that's like if you're the alien from science and you're like i guess i came to the planet that's 75 percent water you know it's like you're the alien from science and you're like i guess i came to the planet that's it's just it's unfortunate just might be what it is this is honestly it's becoming my least favorite conversation because i agree with what you guys are saying but i also think it's perfectly acceptable to set a higher bar than just like being what he is right now because he has the potential to be so much more yeah and so like i i get just like if this is what it's gonna be then it's what it will be whatever will be will be um but like chet has so much more offensive juice in his life and he's not gonna be able to tap into it's just like it's not just the wemby thing it's that he doesn't really step into an offensive role when he's afforded there was plenty of opportunity when the injury struck last season and oftentimes it was like more case in wallace who was like taking it by the reins and seeing that as his time i just maybe it never comes because of like his specifics maybe like just body type just like can't add weight in the way that he needs to in order to bang with certain players who he's gonna come up against i just i actually think it's a cop-out to be like chet's amazing and we should leave him alone i think actually chet's amazing but i want him to be one of the five best players in the league where do we want him to facilitate more it's the question though well it depends on the matchup right i think there's two core situations we're talking about the bulk of random regular season mixed opponent action in which he could be a bigger creator in the way justin's talking about the wemby matchup though is not about shot creation it's about like can you make this defense take you seriously in literally any way like they were not guarding him as a shooter as a ducking guy as a cutter they had no regard for him on the floor whatsoever there's lots of ways that chet holmgren can get involved in that and and some like a lot of them boil down to ways to be more physical which is such a loose gaseous kind of thing to lob at a player but it does come down to that he does have to find ways to carve out space inside to box out more effectively to be a factor on the offensive glass when wimby lunges out at people to challenge shots like i think a lot of it is court awareness which is usually i would say one of chet's strengths but something about that matchup really messes with him and you don't want to just being about the spurs but we talk about all the it's about the end of the season that's what this is about it's like uh you know and i i wanted i wanted to just sidestep again just for a moment to the jada part of it of this he's so critical because the spurs are bigger than them it like a lot of we're talking about these guys who might step in and give more creation and it's just like other than fox it's like you think about like vassell harper you know it's it's it's a big group in castle and a big physical group so uh jada is the one guy that i think is going to be i think chet doing more yes those two guys just doing more i think is probably the most important part of this season how it goes so jado can challenge a lot of those guys physically and with his quickness on defense he can also if you get switched into wemby is strong enough to bump him all the way through the lane which is really important and just like how many how many wings can actually pull that off at this point i mean let's simplify it like who guards jado on the spurs we're matching up with them the cell is about the only i mean i could see them like trying stefan castle i could see them going after that and seeing if it works yeah but then who's guarding i know you know we go down the chain he is he seems like a real skeleton key for that matchup and which is why i think i ultimately lean with thunder just to put a bow on chet my thing is like i think it's a wemby thing and i think like i honestly the bar starts at doing anything i think it's like just showing up offensively like making modest progress i'm not asking a lot here and then it's also in the other matchups just like doing more like in the regular season being more of a factor offensively like we're not asking a lot of chet he's already very good i just want to see like it didn't seem like he made a ton of progress offensively yeah he's great defensively i feel like in some of the earlier seasons you could almost see it in real time like game to maybe not game to game but week to week month to month like the speed of his spin move would kind of accelerate if you kind of charted it over the course of the season you could seem like getting more confident in the moves he was making and then something over the course of last season i wonder if maybe it started with some of the regular season matchups against the spurs and then just got worse and worse as it went where there was a weird crisis of confidence there that i think maybe had some carryover effect too and so i'm with you like a version of chet that finds more ways to tap into consistent and replicable offense is so clearly something that the thunder need and also like is he ever going to be a player who can play full-time five against that team and if he can't as a hartenstein now has to be super important which means all of the offensive limitations that go around hartenstein for as capable as he is have to be factored in it's like we're talking about the thunder in this way because the spurs are really one of the only lenses for them that matter because they're going to dominate almost anybody else they're going to beat and overwhelm almost anyone else in a series and i hope we get this again i feel like we're owed this again i would love the rematch yeah it becomes living on a push shot very quickly right well they lived for a long time on that push shot it went a lot better than i thought it was fucking but there were games where it was like the first seven of the first eight possessions were hartenstein push i know we talked about just the way that wimby impacted the way that they play it was just so unique it's just such a unique scenario in like basketball history had to be too dorky about it but it's just wimby just was such an interesting base to the the acidity of the way that they played and and just neutralized it to the point where we ended up with 10 push shots and you're just like i remember some of those games it was like are they gonna beat them on this push shot it's like he just went six for eight like what is going on it's like those old lou dork games where it's like oh lou dork's just gonna beat the rockets and get them out of the playoffs because he hit seven threes i really just can't wait to see them play each other again and i can't wait to see you know you give mark dagnall by the end of the season a year to stew on this stuff and you give the thunder months and months to work on it what they're gonna do if these teams meet in the playoffs again like that that kind of time is clearly invaluable and it's going to be the way they create those inroads aj and jaylen both for the just for the benefit of the doubt both missed significant time in those playoffs so that's something also and you know and the jared mccain thing they were just that was on they were figuring that out on the fly and i do think it's important too to mention that jared mccain to give the thunder their credit here is that he adds a new wrinkle to the way that they play i mentioned this before i get sorry he keeps the offseason stuff is just like going in a circle in a loop right now but it's like jared plays an on off style that is is pretty unique too that could add another wrinkle to them but they're not even to get if we're going to give the knicks credit for things that have been discovered and that could be mined and explored further that is another one to me that is mccain's style of play can we can we talk about your essential question for this reason yes sure this essential question is three long time thunderers a word that i just made up were second apron sacrifices who makes the biggest leap as a result i think jared mccain is the natural guy because in theory you know that yeah they would be trying to find minutes for isaiah joe here and there maybe there's an aaron wiggins matchup like obviously lou dorat was a big part of this team for a long time jared mccain is now a default member of the organization going to be in the rotation every night he's so explosive he's such a great movement player and kyle laid it out like he gives them especially when they go when she comes off the floor so much used to fall on j-dub's shoulders now to triangulate those minutes between j-dub and aj and jared mccain flying around who's not just an isaiah joe shooter but also a ball handler also attack an attacker in his own way i just think he is really gonna pop now that they know what they have and know what to do with them yeah i mean he has the potential to be one of the more effective relocating movement shooters in the league and i think that's an interesting situation for him to be in as opposed to the way that like philly was playing more i think okc has the framework in place with like the hard steins the way that check can pass it a little bit just the way that that is going to be a unique thing to throw at teams we're talking about off speed pitches a lot in this thing just the isolation thing um it's a weird situation for them to just a great move daryl morey to just give them to give him to the thunder a team that is already swimming in money to just throw them this really interesting thing that they could use in so many different ways one other guy we haven't talked about is aj mitchell and we're going to do that just now with the help of our friends one last time at sam's club because this next segment is brought to you by sam's club during the holidays everyone's in a club the cool aunts club the not socks this year club the food coma club but every season there's a team that earns its way into a club nobody expected so this is about the newest members of the club not a new member aj mitchell but potentially stepping into a new role i mean when you have pretty impressive playoff minutes and you're able to have a dramatic swing and almost force your way into a team that is already so top heavy uh i think it demands attention so what's like a reasonable expectation for aj mitchell this season in terms of role in terms of impact because i'm ready to just like be over the hill for finals mvp okay yeah that's reasonable i think no i like we are clearly in the bag we are in the club for aj mitchell um i all of that is having seen him for like 50 odd games and not even finishing his season he's just he showed so much so fast and i think i have particular respect for guys who assert roles under these sorts of circumstances every factor with what was going on with the thunder says this guy probably should not even play this team is loaded they have the highest level aspirations they have everything going for them aj mitchell's just a guy in the mix and he took every opportunity and ran with it so aggressively and so consistently and this is one of those things as we're trying to figure out what are the supporting pieces among the thunder roster that you have another level yet to go or can help this team stabilize in ways that at it's just only its most dire moments in the playoffs they've kind of struggled with aj mitchell plays with an incredible calm and i think has a pace to his game that not only works well when you're thinking about shea and kind of the format the thunder are used to playing in but gives them a second side presence that is equally calm equally demonstrative and just like can get anywhere it needs to go second side with their great lineups and then he has the potential to just be the full-blown where the captain's hat with the second unit because he can run pick and roll he's incredible in transition he can make skip passes he's just a tough bucket getter he's a physical driver he just has all the different things that you want and i mean he's going to audition for a bigger contract probably with one of the better second unit maestros i think in the league uh it's it's a i keep saying this over and over again it's a unique situation to be in to have all the ascending talent that they have but aj mitchell man um he's he's going to be very very very tough to deal with with your second units if you're in the west already on the sixth man of the year ballot last year probably going to be among the front runners again this year held back maybe only because the thunder will also be super deep and have other really good players coming off the bench there could be four guys yeah for the thunder on that ballot i think he's going to be a really good player i think he's going to be a really good player i think he has such a high q rating one because he's like the real like digging in the crates hidden gem that you find and so you have guys who liked him in the draft all of a sudden be like yeah i fucking got that right but also like there's such a natural leveling up progression that he had that i think everyone can like really appreciate like he got a little bit of opportunity in the preseason and like oh he like he handled some defensive assignments well and slowly but surely just like kept adding stuff played in the finals then went into summer league and played minutes then he comes back and all of a sudden is like a critical role player and now he's like now we're talking about him as a future like maybe starter for another team like it is a real like just give this guy another bit of duty and like oh he does that well let's give him something else give a mouse a cookie right and that i also think it's a real credit to the thunder that much like with aj's progression we don't even bat an eye at the fact that they might just like work in two rookies on the fly here i think we could have the discussion about like well will those guys butt up against like the the depth of this team are there enough reps for x y and z but we don't really believe it anymore because they do such a good job throughout the course of the regular season pacing opportunities and it's built into their system where it's just like they just throw guys out there just to to give them minutes but also to throw other teams off to try some stuff they've really perfected the art of being a like 12 deep team and it just works to their benefit in so many ways and it speaks to just like the culture and just the logistical like acumen of this whole franchise we're going to do a 10 minute podcast segment on bennett sturtz at some point it's just going to happen in the middle of the season he's going to have like a good 10 days and we're going to have to talk about it because this is what the thunder do they just turn up these guys they have a time they definitely have a time it starts Thirds is one of them, for sure. Well, with every breakout squad, you have to earn your spot. And during the holidays, Sam's Club is the club that helps you earn yours. Whether you're part of the Deal Hunters Club or the Last Minute Gift Givers Club, Sam's Club has the name brands you want without blowing your budget. Come join us, Sam's Club. Anything else you guys want to get to here? A lot of names, a lot of guys we didn't talk about. Alex Caruso. We talked around Case and Wallace. I just think that if there is a fly in the ointment, it is going to be him. And I haven't seen Presti since, like, this team was built. Like, once they turned the page on the previous iteration and we got this big three assembled. Like, be so meticulous about carving out, like, a situation for a guy as they have with Wallace. He's up for an extension. Like, he was explicit that we moved Lou to signal something to Wallace, which I think is notable. Absolutely. I think it's notable in a couple ways. One, over the course of last season, Case and Wallace had pretty clearly eclipsed Lou Dorian. As a perimeter defender. Like, had just kind of taken that mantle as far as the assignments he was getting, his importance to the Thunder. He was that guy. And so, I'm sure Case and Wallace has aspirations as a player. I'm sure there's a part of his brain that's like, maybe I could run a team as a point. Maybe these games where Shea is out and I'm running the offense, like, maybe those do mean something. Maybe I could do this if I went to Sacramento or wherever. But this is such a— Sacramento would be so lucky. I mean, genuinely any team would be so lucky. But this is such a great opportunity. And I think— Yeah. I think removing him from timeshare perimeter defender with Lou Dorian and giving him those reigns, it doesn't just signal something. It's just like, he has to be on the floor now. The minutes are guaranteed. The role is guaranteed. There's no night where Mark Dagnall doesn't think you have it and you flex out of the lineup. Like, he's going to be in the mix. And I think that guarantee does mean something for a player who's trying to prove himself as he levels up. Yeah. For these rookies, so Sturtz and Mara, if we're looking at the playoff series, like, which guys do you think might be the best? Which guys might get on the floor? Is it Sturtz because he has such a clear role? I think he's a little older, right? Yeah. Mara, though, has a pretty defined skill, which is he's fucking massive. And can you see a situation where, like, he gets into the game just because they need a curveball, playing a big team, he's a big body, we'll throw him out there? Like, which one can you see being in line for that sort of role? Mara being on this team was kind of— I always assumed— I'm just doing draft talking points now here. But, like, I always assumed that— I thought that they might take a look at Zach Eadie. Zach Eadie to just give them, like, a completely different look because he is going to just add something that they've never really had before. I mean, he's—I don't want to jump—your first assumption is, like, 7-3 guy. You're like, oh, wow, okay, a little bit of Wimby. It's sort of the Hulkbuster kind of idea. Like, this guy's going to come in. I'm not ready to see that. I think Mara is a little bit of a ways away from being ready to, like, play on a playoff floor for them. He's a really good passer. Like you said, the offense is, like, super, super raw within 10 feet of the basket. Not really. Not really a shooter. I think we'll probably see him playing with the blue quite a bit this year. But we didn't even talk about Thomas Sorber as another guy that hasn't played for them at all. Just figuring out how to get these guys time is going to be a big challenge. I mean, I think part of what's standing in Sorber's way and Adai Mara's way is, like, other Jalen Williams is probably the most overqualified 9th or 10th man in the entire league. Like, just a rock-solid guy making a meager contract because he wants to be a part of this. And he's really good at doing it. And we saw Gaines. He's really good at doing it. He's going to be a 4 his entire career. If he plays 5, it's more of, like, an off-speed pitch. Then we see that as his future. And I think if so long as that is the case, he needs to show more skill in the way that you've been prescribing. Like, you can't be a 4 in the modern NBA and just play like a big. You've got to have other stuff you're bringing to the table. It's interesting because when I think back about their playoff run and even in that Spurs series, so much of my memory of that run was defined by guys just spackling. Like, guys like Caruso. Caruso. The ball just ending up in Caruso. Caruso's hands and him, like, punching above what we expect to be his. Or Jalen Williams. Like, it's a lot of those types of situations. And I guess, and you'll see, I don't know if you all agree with that or your memory is the same as mine, but I guess that kind of speaks to the real need for Wallace to step in and assume more of that mantle and the real need for Chet to do the same. All right. That's 30 teams. That's probably 10 hours of content. Felt like 30. We did it, guys. Do you want to hold hands? Don't touch me. We'll do that off mic then. All right. Well, thank you very much for everyone who's followed us along in this entire journey. Thank you to our production team, Victoria Valencia, Ben Cruz, Isaiah Blakely, everyone in the booth. Victoria Valencia has put up with just an extraordinary amount of our bullshit. Talk about a stockpile of talent, for sure. I can smell what's going on in this room. We have to re-close the doors and air tight. Saved all of our careers multiple times by not including things in this podcast. So, thank you to Victoria. Just for you. It's mainly been Justin, actually. I would never. But, yeah. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll be back on a regular schedule next week. We'll talk to you then. 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in D.C. or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-GAMBLER. 800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7868. 6-7. Before this. There's this. As you celebrate the game, take a deeper look at its roots. The people growing the grass, paving the lots, welding the goalposts, inspecting every football. Visit carhartt.com slash jointhetrades to learn more. The Mosquito Bowl is the incredible true story of four college football stars who walked away from NFL careers after Pearl Harbor to enlist in the Marines. From Friday Night Lights director Peter Berg and starring Nicholas Galatine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis comes a story of brotherhood and sacrifice. Four. Four men who traded the gridiron for the battlefield. The Mosquito Bowl in theaters October 30th.