Preseason Power Rankings, Part 3 | Group Chat

Hello, welcome group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me in the studio, Rob Mahoney, Jay Kyle Mann. We are here for part three. I don't know what that is. Okay, cool. Or push the walls out. I got it. You got to angle it more. It's true. Yeah, definitely one of those. Part three of the preseason NBA power rankings. I hope you go back and check out parts one and two. We recorded those for Monday and Wednesday. Are you guys ready for another? What? Four hours in this studio together. I'll closely confined, get to know each other on an intimate level. Are we though? What do you mean? I feel like I'm always, you know, trying to ask probing questions, trying to get to the bottom of both of your whole deals. And I just feel we're, I feel rebuffed at every turn. I feel like I want you both of you to let me and our listeners in a little bit more. And I just feel like I feel like I'm being held in an arm's length. I think I'm a chronic oversharer. I don't know. I think Justin, you would be the one. Okay. That is not it. But here's the thing now that you are the local here. We're getting like a preview of like you and your normal habitat. Kyle and I are kind of on vacation life in a different like kind of timeline. That's true. We learned about your style preferences. What your personal stylist has been gifting you your, your taste in poor coffee. Your sugar balance and your beverages. Yeah. You think a personal stylist is picking out my coffees? No. Maybe they should. Specifically. Look, I wish I had a personal stylist. My personal stylist is unfortunately like for many people, the Instagram algorithm. And it has maybe a seven percent success rate. What would you say you're going for here? Sweater? Really? What's wrong with this? I like it. What's your problem? It's okay. It's fine. Okay. Well, yeah, air it out. What are your thoughts? Uh, you know, I think the fit could be a little better. Okay. Wow. Drop a few. Jesus Christ. I don't know what's going on there. Wow. Yeah. Well, we're off to a great start. There you ask for sure. It's very. I take so much back. I was like, I'm the one wearing the denim shirt. I think I'm also wearing a band-toe shirt as well. So, yeah, we've, we've, we've got, we're definitely doing our early 2000s. Indie rock. Maybe I'm just like being who I want to be. And I just have. You know, you know, you're wearing a band shirt that's old to the point where people think it's a brand like people have no clue that it's a band. That's, that's a, that's a fun one. The age yourself. All right. Are you guys ready for this? I guess. All right. Well, first we have to take a quick break. We'll come back, talk about the next five teams. This episode is presented by Sam's Club during the holidays. Everyone's in a club. The last minute gift givers club. The cool aunts club. The food coma club. Whatever holiday club you're in, Sam's club is the club that helps you pull it off. You need to get a meal on the table in under two hours done shopping for the brands they want like Dyson and Lego without blowing your budget. Check and check. Sam's Club helps you make the most of the holidays. Come join us. Sam's Club. All right. We've made it to number 20 on our list. This feels like the teams that like have a shot. You know, we got through the end of the leagues at this point. These feel like the teams that could make a leap at some point. We're you guys and just like these batch of teams we're going to talk about over the next two episodes. I feel like that might be a little charitable. Okay. Maybe a tad. Yeah. A shot at what and in the timeline of when they could have a shot at something I think is what we would need to clarify. I think it's all relative. It's like where these teams are coming from. Some of them have been in the dregs of the NBA for so long that even getting to this kind of like near mediocrity feels great. Some of them have been to the mountaintop several times and being back here being questioned, are you even going to make the playoffs? Sounds like an insult, but it's just kind of reality. Yeah. I can say that because I wanted to be a Charlotte Hornets Optimus for this season. They obviously traded two big pieces over the off-season limelball, miles bridges. And I thought their formula that they kept would at least like lead to a good regular season outcome. Like I wanted to put them much higher than they ultimately were. They landed 20 in our rankings. My first like original question for this was would they win more games than Lamello had averaged games played over his course of his career as a Charlotte Hornet, which was 15 and a half. And I was like I was ready to believe, but yet this was going to be a 50-win team. I just thought that they clearly will talk about Lamello's impact and what they're losing there. But I just thought like they're going to jack a ton of threes. I was a big believer in the con Brandon Miller code jump together this year. I thought they brought in a lot of like steady veterans. I didn't think they were going to fall off so much. And if anything, I thought what they had built already could carry into something beyond just relying on Lamello to drive their offense or so much. Fortunately, media day yet again just pokes a little hole in there because Khan already out with a hamstring injury. Grant Williams also. It sounds like they're going to be back early in the season, but they might miss like a couple games at the very least. And so like that momentum is really tough when you're doing a preseason exercise like this where it's like it's hard to believe in a team when you're best second best player is already not expected to be there. I think it goes deeper than that, though. I mean last season for the Hornets was an incredibly charmed run. Sure. And they won 44 games. And so expecting them to come into this year have to completely rewire their offense without Lamello granted with very capable pieces as you outline Justin. I think it was going to take some time period for them to figure out how they want to play how this works, what the balance of it is in this new world. And thinking that that team is going to make a big wins jump off of last year, I just I just don't think it's very realistic for this group. I think if they're going to be more less in the same place around a 500 team, maybe slightly better than that. That's a pretty good outcome for this group. Yeah. If you look at the trajectory, they've done obviously in the, you know, moving over, they're washing away the the Jordan regime and the in the person, although Brandon Miller is as a holdover here. I guess he was right there at the end there. He was instrumental in the Brandon Miller pick, but it ended up being it looks like it's going to be a big and we'll talk more about him in a minute. But I think in terms of the runway or just the ceiling that this young core was going to have in the way that they played, you reached a point where you were like, are we closer to the end or the middle? And I kind of, it kind of makes you wonder when you look at the, from the outside looking at getting rid of Lamello, we can talk about the impact that he had on their offense and where it'll go from here. It makes you wonder was, was this a financial decision, was this a basketball decision? Was it a culture decision? Was it an even mix of the three? It kind of just makes you wonder, are they pruning a branch off you as the Gardner can speak to if you've had this experience out in your garden, Justin, if you've ever had to kind of prune a branch off of something or a limb off of something, because ultimately you knew that it would pay off because I assume that's the thinking I assume is that they thought that this step backward would help them take more steps forward in the in the near future. You snip a basal plan at a certain spot, gets all bushy, grows even bigger. I'll tell me about it, brother. And I think that's what they did. And so here's the good and bad with Lamello. Obviously fifth overall on offense last year. And a lot of that was just like the second half of the season when they took off. And so like if they just carried that second half and had another half this year, probably would have been, if not the best, then certainly among them this year, Lamello off the court, there was good as the kings last year, offensively. The other side of that is Lamello, as Kyle was kind of alluding to. Not a culture guy. Also, I actually don't entirely agree with that. Okay. I think he's not the kind of culture guy who makes everyone lock in and take everything super seriously, but he is the kind of culture guy who can defuse tension in a room. And so it's like there's there's different kinds of culture guys, right? Like there's ones who set a standard every day with the seriousness by which they work. And then there's culture guys who help everyone else feel more at ease. And you can already see some of that in Minnesota, frankly, where they're going from maybe taking things a little too self-seriously, sometimes in that locker room in certain elements versus having Lamello. I think I think just has an error about him that helps a team relax, maybe too relaxed at times, but it does have its place. That's what I mean. I mean, he's like a bad guy outside of like when he's on the road in Charlotte. Sure. But like, oh, you literally don't. Yeah. I think it's an un-seriousness. They kind of like exercise the Lucy Goosiness with both Miles and him going out there. And I think the pivot they've gotten to is being more of a serious team. And I think that's important for especially young guys that they're trying to rear. And like, you want your best players to be the tone-setters. I think that is a kind of like sports cliche, but it ultimately proves true. And if he was the best player, you're probably getting a trickle-down effect from him. So there's that part of it. Also, they jacked the second most three in the league last year. So they averaged 43 a game. I think that will be the low mark for this team. And I think Nas Reed, like really fits the vision of that. And obviously, Charles Lee coming over from the Celtics. There's a lot of roots in that offense too. And so I think like what they were envisioning worked, but it is obviously going to require some jumps from Khan and Braden Miller, especially his ballhandlers. And so if he's not there, then it just becomes a little trickier. Yeah, I think, look, the Lamella move we've talked about a little bit. We're talking around it in a lot of ways now. I think the availability was the biggest part of it. I think they liked him to a degree as a player. Yeah, maybe not some of the habits, maybe not everything he did on the court. But I think it was more just a calculated assessment of how much can we continue to build around a guy who is only somewhat available. And Lamella's history, especially with angle injuries, is extensive enough now. You have to take that stuff serious. Like it has to be the biggest caveat on any argument about what his basketball value is. And so if you're going to have this intricately webbed offense with him doing a lot and Khan doing a lot of Brandon Miller doing a lot, but the also feels so stylistically reliant on the particular way that Lamello empowers others, it's a tough safety net to lose midseason or for a month at a time. And I think they just wanted to cut bait with that as much as anything. Who are the, well, I was going to say the biomechanics kind of people who like watch the draft classes. I remember them forecasting that Lamello might have some issues because of the way he jumps in the lane. He does a lot of like odd-footed float, like floating forward kinds of things and he's had ankle issues, which yeah, it's been interesting and it turned out to be true, those concerns. But I was wondering, you were talking about him having, I thought this was, that was interesting, which you were saying about him providing levity, chemistry-wise and how that can be value. And I was trying to think of like, who are the all-time like levity chemistry guys in like successful situations? I mean, Clay comes to mind. If it's Steph, Steph is like that, but a different way. That's just like a stability. Yeah, it's like, you can depend on Stephs. It feels a little different. I don't know where it's like. Would it be the goofball group? Well, yeah, in a way that's like helpful. I'm trying to think of, honestly, Dirk is a huge one. Boris Diaz was a nice, a lot of levity guy. I think Cat can be that in good circumstances. Sometimes he gets a little too raw raw. It depends. It's hard to find the guys who are that all the time. Because I think there's an instinct, if you are the jokester, like you want to find a kind of seriousness or you want to be taken seriously at a certain point in your career. I don't think O'Mello has really reached that point yet. He's still just kind of that guy, but we'll see. I don't think he trades someone after probably their best season. If there aren't some, there isn't some stuff. For sure. Well, it kind of brings us to a central question, though. Who will lead this team in this sys? So O'Mello was third in the NBA in his sister's percentage last year. And there's a big ol' gap between him and the next guy in the team I believe Kobe White was, but he only played a couple games toward the end of last season after the trade deadline. Who do we think ultimately gets the lion's share of this duty? I don't really see there being like a huge lead. I don't see anyone carrying like a massive assist load on this team. I really think it's going to be by committee that they're going to continue to do this. And what's interesting is Miller and Khan kind of feel like sides of a coin where they both, you know, they're both movement shooters. They both can get in the paint. I would say that brain is probably a little bit more talented of like an ambidextrous off the dribble passer, but Khan is probably a more steady decision maker. They kind of like fill different buckets. And you kind of have to make a call at some point. I ultimately feel like Miller is probably going to have an offensive jump this season. I predict that that's going to happen if he stays healthy. He's also had those problems. But he leans towards a preference to score a little bit more in my mind. And Khan kind of is just like playing every situation a little bit more evenly. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because Brandon is a really talented shot maker. But I kind of feel like, I kind of feel like Khan will have a slight lead in a by committee kind of approach. Yeah, I think spiritually no one will lead this team and assist like Kyle is kind of alluding to. It will be pretty balanced between the three of them. I think literally it's going to be Kobe White who just in his limited time in Charlotte when Lamello is off the floor did play closer to something akin to a traditional point guard. I think he will have some of that responsibility again. But we'll have to see. I mean, I think it's pretty realistic that all three of those guys could be five assist a game candidates, which would be a slight jump up. But no one's going to be in the Lamello class of, you know, threatening to lead the league. Kobe career high 5.1. Yeah. Do you think he'll eclipse that? I think I think he'll be just under maybe like 4.8, 4.7, something like that. That's where he's hovered. Yeah. Oh, the crazy thing is they lose Lamello. And I don't have much of a concern about the offense. See, I don't, I don't get that really. So right now, you think this team, which is again, a lot of players we like, you think they're going to be a top 5 offense again. Not necessarily to the heights of last year, but I think they're going to be a top 10 offense. And I think it's going to be very good. They have too much firepower and it's all developing talent. Like the fact that Miller still has more to gain. He's already like jacking like eight threes a game at like high level. He's taking 10. Like he should. There's still more growth there for a lot of these like highly talented guys. And so there's just, I mean, there's good veterans off the bench. Like I don't think the offense is going to be a problem. I think defense is going to be a big concern. Sure. But I don't know. I think this is going to be, let's say eighth, eighth best offense in the week over under. I would take the under maybe slightly. I think they might come around 10. And which again, like we're not far off really. But I think the difference between being a team that can be explosive enough to be the number one offense for even months at a time. Going from that to one that's like comfortably in the eight to 10 range is a very different way to live, right? It's going from blowing the doors off every opponent you play and your defense can kind of try to keep up to now there is pressure on that defense. It's not just a matter of do they have the personnel to do it. But if you're not going to be truly, truly elite scoring, you have to have that like and that creates different incentives in terms of who plays. It changes the shape of your rotation. It creates it forces you to make stylistic concessions if you're charlesly. I just think the downstream effects of going from one of the best offenses in the league to a pretty good offense are going to have really tangible implications that are not super fun for the Hornets. I think we could see an interesting thing. When you look at the player types here what I was saying, like putting con and Brandon next to each other with Kobe out there, we might see a little bit of a stylistic shift where we see a little more cutting where it's not necessarily as much about the like path like the making creating advantage and then hitting the open guy as much as they might get a little bit more cutting offense with this because with the absence of Lamella they might have not as much of a choice but to play that way. But the thing that kind of concerns me a little bit is if you look at like the downhilt like the driving numbers and the points and the paint and things like that. I mean Lamella was the lone beacon of light for them until Kobe came along which makes me think that there's going to be a lot on Kobe to be like a consistently good productive driver. Overall, I do think that they're going to feel Lamella's absence in that sense because he really bolstered them in that area. I just think that there are enough willing good passers on this team that the flow is going to be there and Kobe White has played like directly in that offense with lesser talent and has done a good job playing this exact role. And so like maybe they won't hit the heights of Lamella but I still think this is going to be a good team. It's just really to what extent. Yeah. I think they're going to be really good. I think I mean the three-point volume and reliance is going to be one of the stories of their season and some of that is not just because of who they lost but who they're bringing in like adding Grayson Allen and Roy so Neil Nas as we talked about. These are really good shooters. And guys who are inclined to like Nas can be a really good cutter is honestly a better ball handler than Miles Bridges too in terms of like his ability to attack and kind of get into space but he also wants to spot up and shoot. And so it's like I think they could fall into some of those rhythms where they're just kind of chucking and chucking and chucking and it's going to work a lot of nights but also might get them in trouble. I think that's a natural place for an offense that is that gifted from the perimeter and that reliant on young playmakers. It's just going to happen sometimes. Well, we think they're really good but with a they've regressed. I mean they were playing last year. I mean we I just want to make sure we're consistent or do you think they're taking a step back or do you think they're taking a side step or I think they're taking a slight step back. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like the most likely outcome. I think a big part of it is like what's going to happen at center. I think Musa Diabate was a revelation but clearly they sacrifice some stuff by going to that specific type of center. Obviously they brought in our guy Hunz Steinbach. Monster Rebounder which I like as an offensive like just get tractor beam hands. Yeah. Just get the rebound. Kick it back out like there's like a certain synergy there but obviously rim protection is going to be an issue outside of clockbrenner. Yeah. And how I think how they manage those like four or five combos because Nas can play four or five. Musa can play four or five. It seems like Honest might be able to kind of work with both of those guys. Maybe he's more so with Nas frankly. And so like who you want to play and how you want to talk of that rotation is interesting. I also am on the lookout personally for I hope Musa starts because I want to see him and Nas play together as much as possible. And I'm in the market for a duo nickname for the two of them. I think you know like Bash Brothers miss like we can do better than the basic stuff. Musa and Nas and the moose is a little too drivetime radio. So like it's like moose on. What can what can we do with these? We don't have to we have to find a resolution today but I want to open the conversation. Well what specific trait are you looking to really drill down on? Is it the names themselves? Is it the physicality? Well here's the thing maybe maybe this is like where you know if you like adopt a pet and you don't want to give them a name right off the bat because you need to get an understanding of their personality. Right. It's like what am I really naming here? Who are they going to be together? I expect they're going to be fun and agile and super athletic and dynamic and they're just going to be all over the place in the way that both Nas and Musa debaugh taken be. If we can capture that that's great but maybe they try not to be something else entirely. You guys own Moose hats? Not yet. Can we ask the hornets? I would wear one. Absolutely. They clearly like address this knee because this team was 27th in well I mean they'd shot a lot of threes. I mean the points in the paint was a small part of their offense. They weren't great on the offensive glass. A ton of that was depending on Diabate. Talkbrinter jumped out early and was productive. Remember we talked about them on the show but he kind of regressed the season went on. They just need more avenues to get easy offense like that. Life is a little bit hard and uphill and pressured and teams got in them. We saw in that playing games where the magic just punk them. Yeah. And I think at some point you can't just be like a wispy shooting threes uphill team. You can't just I think I said this you want to you can't just stand on the bank. If you're going to fish all the time you got to get in you got to get a line in the water and you mock me for saying that but I think it's sometimes the Kentucky just oozes out of you. It's you know it's okay. Was that was that in a crick or what are you thinking? I had cricks ponds. No that's why I think the cutting thing is going to become a thing for them because I just don't I think it's obvious. It's there for the them because they just have these two great six seven six eight movement shooters that you have to jump to the level and that's cutting game comes from that. So I expect to see that. I think it's healthy and good to think of the Hornets right now and the Lamello trade especially as the precursor to what they're going to become. And we want to see what Brandon Miller can do and how he can pop. We want to see the arc of Tom's career, which is really exciting. But also, they are now a team that over the next seven years, they have three swaps, they have five extra firsts, including the 2033 unprotected from both Minnesota and Phoenix. They've so much to work with that the future like leader of this team might not be on it. And that's okay because everyone else feels like a great piece, a great potential supporting part. There aren't any players on the Hornets honestly that feel like they close doors. And so it's a really exciting place to be where you feel like you're playing good basketball. You're starting to string some things together season to season. And yet there's still a lot of doors open to you. Yeah, if we're doing actions over words to steal a Brian Windhorstism, that trade signal that their future is in the future, right? They didn't usually is for now. Far away future. They're thinking big view, not short-term view, which is what the walls were doing by getting Lamello. Any guys of things, we didn't want to talk about con much. I didn't want to draw your attention to this Reddit headline that I saw yesterday, which was a video from the local Milwaukee news channel. I just love the way someone wrote this, which is Khan Knipple spends the offseason playing basketball with his devout younger brothers, Kager, Kingston, Cash and Kidman at his home court, which is called the Complex, named after his father, Big Khan. So it's, sorry, it's called the Conplex. Okay. Oh, and that's fucking rules. Yeah, I was out on Kager, but I'm back in on Conplex. But the crazy thing is it's not like this NBA player, millionaire bought this whole enormous, great court for them. It's just like outside their house that they grew up in. It's just like a court. I mean, we talked about this before, but the naming conventions with stuff like this. I do have, you know, I'm conflicted about cash, mommy blogger naming style. She did like eight kids with similarly phrase names and starting names. Yeah, it's tough. It can't be it, but at least Con rose to the top, you know. I met the, I met the Knipples in Vegas, and I have to say they were quite lovely. So I'm going to sing. Sorry guys. Look, it's nothing about that. I will say K, Kager, his younger, the devout younger brother's part. It's Kager. I think so. Yeah. Kager Kager. He plays for team hero. And so there's a whole Milwaukee mafia kind of seen up there. His brother built completely differently. He's like spinly sinewy, like, like a Pippini type body. He's a brand of gun. Con is like so stout and everything. The devout part. I was like devout to who? To about to con about to the all just about. Con was awesome last year. We should say that. Yeah. One of the thing that happened with the Hornets is they acquired Rob Dillingham and waived Rob Dillingham. Yeah. And we kind of alluded to this on a previous pod, but I want to take you to down a bit of a trivial lane. Yeah. Drafted at number eight. Wave just two seasons later. The fastest that a top 10 pick has ever been cut by a team. Rob Dillingham is the second fastest that a top 10 pick has ever been cut. Who do you think is number one? Papa Yannis was really fast, but he was 13. He was just outside the range. Yeah. It's not me. It's actually someone who's come up weirdly enough on another trivia question on a previous preseason power ring. Yeah. I guess Anthony Bennett. Anthony Bennett. 818 days. Of course, the number one pick by far the bullet. The other names on this list in recent memory. Joe Alexander, Thomas Robinson, Johnny Davis. I mean, just a whiff of all whiffs. But it's just like on the one hand, the fact that they punted on Rob Dillingham does and Ryan Nemhard, we should say, who they cut and the nuggets picked up does feel like a vote of confidence in Christian Anderson, right? That he might be able to give them something potentially, at least some spot minutes as a shooter and certainly in Dennis shooter, who's a part of this team and rotation as well. But man, like the Rob Dillingham Odyssey and Journey is just depressing as hell. I think should be a reality check around a lot of smaller wispy guards, especially ones who don't have a defined and marketable NBA skill that will surpass all of the difficulty that they're going to find with the size and athleticism of the league. Also, it just feels like they're really falling in the footsteps of the Celtics and trying to be a more democratic. Everyone does a little bit of everything sort of thing where they don't need a de facto point guard. If you're going to go that approach, you don't want more small guys there. Obviously, Kobe's not the biggest guy. Dennis Shooter's coming off the bench. And so like, if you're going to empower your wings, like, do you need small guards? Just like not playing defense. So Dillingham didn't make much sense there. He did not. He never really developed a super power. And I'll admit, I mean, that was a bad draft. I expected Rob to kind of figure it out because he's just such a creative, I mean, his creativity and his, he had so many boxes that were full of just craft. And he was, you know, really creative with a live dribble. And just the shooting never really got high enough to justify the difference between him and Christian Anderson and Christian Anderson's and a lead shooter. Yeah. He should fit into the Hornets philosophy pretty quickly. And he's a pretty talented or you all thinking of Hans Christian Anderson. I literally was taking with hot with honest and Christian Anderson. There's a joke here somewhere. I just don't know what it is. I was just thinking they might take 63s a game because we've said with every player this guy just get him up. Well, yeah, it's interesting. You all keep kind of, I mean, we circled around this talking about like criticizing the tray Helio model with the small guard. It's just kind of like going back to the conductor insulator thing. Like they have a lot of guys that the electricity at the ball can move through. And that's kind of like you were saying that's it. It's a formula. It's a good way to build a roster because it's harder to shut your water off if that's the case. I mean, just look at the Celtics. I will talk about them later. Like it's basically top five in both ends. Like this works. We'll get to the like the high end works if you have a top five defense, you know, or in Jason Tatum. Yeah. And those things do tend to benefit you just trying to summon Bill Simmons. No. All right. Next one. Number 19. Ah, they golden state warriors. This is just such sad shit. I looked over the roster and I was like, this is it? This is what we're doing, guys said. I am shocked there this high. And I looked back through the spreadsheets. I was like, how did this happen? I did not have them this high. It's respect. No, I found our culprit. It's Jay Kyle made. Oh, what did I do? So when we file our individual ballots for where these teams were going to rank out, Kyle had them as the 15th best team in the league. It's pretty high. And whereas me and Justin are more like 21. Yeah. Six spots. They're two. They're two bad spots is a lot. They're too bad to be good and they're too good to be bad. No, they're going to be bad. Well, I just I have so much respect for the binary star of Dremond and stuff that like that is a baseline of communication culture. The problem is are we launching into it? What are we doing here? Uh, Rob and I were talking about this yesterday. This is a team that is built on off-ball offense and cutting and things like that. Like the Hornets might graduate into or they if they follow that template, I think they should. But they also have like prompted more off-ball switching than any team in the league. And in the past, that off-ball switching could be punished with talent that was around Steph. And whether or not that's like punishing a mismatch. And when they brought in Jimmy Butler, that was that was a great alternative. If they screen with Steph and Jimmy, Jimmy could just ISO whoever it was to death. You don't really have that at this point. You don't really have the shooting quality has come down. You don't have supplementary playmakers beyond Dremond and Steph. Um, the options for how to help Steph or have things like ripple out from the gravity that he provides are just not there. And then defensively, how good are they going to be? Jimmy's not going to be back. It's just it's a myriad of concerns. So I understand the pessimism. Yeah, they just seem like a team that looks really shallow. And frankly, kind of cursed at this point because yeah, like Jimmy Butler was a perfect warrior and he's going to miss the majority. If not all of the season, if he does play, he's not going to be fully Jimmy Butler. And that's just the start of their injury problems. And those are just the present injury problems. Because then you look at the rest of this roster. And it's a lot of guys who seasons need to be managed because they're older guys who have chronic injury concerns across the rotation. Steph himself played like 40 something games last year. I just I really don't know where it's going to come together for this group. And it's a bit of a bummer and it is sad. And of course, like I do believe in Steph and Jamal, they've earned every benefit of the doubt. I just don't trust almost any other rotation spot as far as like what we expect from what they're going to get out of their wings, what they're going to get out of their other bigs. It's just so hard to predict when everything feels like a moving target. Feels like a Jimmy Butler waiting game. And whether or not he comes back earlier, it's probably going to dictate whether or not they even make the playing at this stage. I just think like they can't even trade him if they wanted to because the way their books are set up is Steph and Jimmy make a ton of money. I think they both make over 50 million. And then it's like dream on making like a reasonable amount like 20 something million. And so like if you wanted to do anything, you'd have to trade Jimmy, but they seem reluctant to do that. And if you wanted to make any other move, you have to completely gut your roster of just bodies that you wouldn't be able to fill on the fly in the middle of a season. And so they're stuck. Basically, the Jimmy Butler trade even though have reenergized them for a short bid, basically trapped them into their situation there. And now to the point where like, Christopps would have been intriguing like, well, let's see what he could do. He played a little bit last year, but then this off season weird thing shows up again. Like, I have to put it where I don't want to make jokes about it because something something might just be wrong with Christopps, where it's just like this might keep him from playing consistently throughout his career. No, like it's not anything worth taking shots at. It's more just that they signed him expecting him to play. He was a full go until all of a sudden one day he wasn't. Yeah. And so, yeah, we have no idea what's going on with that. We don't know when he's going to be available at this point. It's just everything is kind of up for grabs. And so I'm left looking at this rotation. looking at this collection of players and just wondering, not how are they going to be good, but how are they going to make ends meet? How are they going to fill minutes for 82 games with this group without just dramatically overtaxing stuff? And GoldenSays clearly trying to reinvent the wheel in some ways. Steve Curry has talked about they're going to be changing their spacing this year. They're changing like the flow of their ball movement a little bit. They're trying to diversify what they do to grasp at something that isn't so nailed down. But when you do that, you also make it harder for Steph and Dremont who are ingrained playing a certain way. And so it's like, how much can you even rely on the parts of your team that work when everything else? How many times are we going to do this? They always go back to the same stuff that always works because that's just like the heart of their entire thing. There's three guys who've been there throughout. That's the one thing that they've always settled on. Steph, Dremont, and then then Curry. And so they're not going to change anything. If you think about like though on like a night tonight, you got to think about the two NBAs that exist. And the one, the one NBA is the night-to-night preparation thing. Granted, the familiarity of the Warriors has passed into a, this is not surprising anyone. But on a night-to-night basis, like preparing for them, it's a little strange. They play differently than anybody else. And it's kind of like, that's good for a certain number of, like a certain amount of success. And Steph has shown that he can still turn it on and spurt. But like, when teams have time to prepare for them, it's just, it's a different story. We're Zingas. Postural, orthostatic, tacky, cardia syndrome. I don't even know what that is. It has to do with, I mean, it's, it's, it has to do with his heart. I mean, I don't know what it should do. But it's like, I am actually. Oh, yeah. Scary shit. No, no, no. Yeah, I have a lot of time in my hands in the summer. But he was diagnosed with this in Boston. So it's kind of like, they signed up for this. They signed up for older players. They took a lot of risk to thread the needle and try to extend Steph's window. And the story is changing. It's a different type of story. If you could expect Steph to be there for 70 plus games, then we're talking about maybe shooting over even these low expectations, probably modestly so. But then he isn't, is available anymore. And then if he isn't available, Dremont starts worrying about outlining his podcast for the day and not showing up as regularly. So I just, I just don't see a pathway for them to be like anything beyond mediocre this season. Yeah, I would believe it clearly if Jimmy Butler was healthy, this would change everything. And even if Jimmy Butler wasn't, but like Moses Moody was available, it might even change their outlook a little bit. But we don't know if we're going to see Moody until probably after the calendar year turn. And so then it's like, yeah, what are you getting at a poor thing? Is what are you getting at a Hall, Alhorford? Is this a season where Anthony Melton will be healthy or not? Even someone like Charles Bassi, who Bassi, sorry, quickly. Well, let me put, let me just like, to me, he's like emblematic of a thing here, which is that the warriors are grasping at so many straws for like, oh, can this player in some way fit our style that they have under indexed on, is this a guy who usually can play games? And Charles Bassi, like if he makes this, find this actual roster is a cool thing for a guy who has had major knee injuries, basically every year for five years. But like, you need guys who can play. Can we get the young guys, the two way guys? Can we get guys who are eligible to play games most of the time? Here's the thing. The warriors aren't making enough moves to make players like Charles Bassi not matter. I think there's been a weird like overthought complacency about, oh, we only have so many assets with this current version of the team with use them so carefully that it kind of freezes Golden States front office sometimes. And this, this offseason is a great example where, yeah, you draft the Axel Lindembourg. He's going to be really helpful for this team. I guess you brought in George Nien who now has to play. What else was supposed to happen here? Like, you knew about some of these injuries going in. You know where Steph is in his career. He's certainly signing up via extension to be a part of this for a little longer. But where is the help supposed to come from? Like, I think the Charles Bassi thing, yes, I'm overstating, but like, you need to sign players who can play games. And I weirdly enough, I don't think Golden State is doing that. The bass master is right. Wow, I love it. He's ready to go. We have a new mentioned Brandon Pagimpski, though, is that it's a guy that they, I don't know that they expected to be in the position to be defending, depending on his development. Yes. Kind of integrity, but I mean, he's taken on more responsibility. And if you listen to been our, our God, been crews talk about it. It's like any passive aggressive comment in the media that Steve Kerr makes. Crucial Texas would be like, he's talking about pods. Yeah. So that's, it's just adds to the erraticness, but I don't know. Is, is there any kind of a, he said he wants to be his goodest staff? Do we have any kind of like optimism that he's going to make a big lead? He's one of the most reliable warriors. And I mean, that like derogatory, you know, like, this is the thing. He becomes such a weird lightning rod player because this team needs so much more than what he's able to give most nights. But Brandon Pagimpski's pretty good. I think that's totally fine. He just should be the sixth or seventh or eighth man on a team. And instead, he's a second cider essential personnel. Captain, you don't, yeah, if you're living in dying by, I mean, his like efficiencies across the board. It's just like, yeah, when the defense is like looking at all eyes on him, it's you need him to be in that role. And it's he's kind of miscast if he's being asked to do. I think there's a lot of those problems here where like they brought in Brandon Williams this summer where a golden state team four years ago brings in a guy like Brandon Williams, like, great. A ball handler score who can actually spell stuff who can like help some of this stuff keep moving when when Curry isn't on the ball. That would seem super useful. It's just if you're missing so many of the intermediate pieces, adding stuff on the bottom doesn't really change a lot. All right. You mentioned Yaxel Lindenborg. I think before or after Charles Bass, yeah, I lost sight of what happened there. But you Lindenborg did a get out the gate on the breakout. You got to know the Lindenborg. Can we leave this in that we're I want to counter for how many times we hear Lindenborg season, not from Justin. It's going to be chronic. It's going to be a lot of stuff. The sad thing is I saw you guys laugh and I was like, oh, they really like my nasty joke. It's like nearly nailed that one. But we're going to talk about Yaxel Lindenborg. When I point at you. No, you can do. Think about it. Linden's Star Trek mind. You're you're you're loaning a Borg some money. Lindenborg. There you go. Lindenborg. There you go. I tried. We're going to we're going to get into their new lottery pick with the help of our friends from Sam's Club because this next segment is brought to you by Sam's Club during the holidays. The cool aunts club. The not socks this year club. The food coma club. But every season, there's a team that earns its way into a club. Nobody expected. So this segment is about the newest members of the club. Stop lighting a team's newest offseason edition. Obviously, Yaxel fits the bill there. What's like a good expectation for him? It seems like they might rely on him more than a team with aspirations you would expect, right? Yaxel Lindenborg is a guy who is older. I think everybody kind of knows about that, but now because he had such a strange path to get to where he was. So he's going to come in a little bit more physically mature. He but embassableized he's rounded out his skill set in the past few years to the point where he's very matured ready to contribute in a lot of different ways. And I think that he is I would I would just prepare warriors fans for he's a pretty clever connective passer. He's going to be a solid catch and shoot player. I don't know that you're going to want him shooting like movement threes. He can get to the basket. The other thing too is that he's a very, very versatile. He's going to be a not totally vivid facsimile of what Jimmy would give you. Sure. I'm not going to say he's going to he's going to just it's going to be will that piece of gum hold the water pressure for an amount of time. And I really think that Yaxel does enough things and he is so confident that he's ready to come in like I think that he's going to fit into the Warriors culture in a good way. I think that means a lot that you're not done to play with these guys for like a franchise with this kind of reputation in this style that a lot of young players have really struggled with. But everything about Yaxel's DNA as a player in his skill set scream golden state. And I think the idea that even if he is not Jimmy Butler that you can have a player in flow who can do more than one thing. Golden State hasn't had a lot of those guys in these role playing spots over the years. They have specialists, they have shooters, maybe the you know the Gary Payton, Cutter and Defender types who really only offer you one thing on offense. When Yaxel in the board catches the ball, there's going to be options open. And I think that alone is going to really broaden out what Golden State can do. Right now, Guy Santos is penciled in as the starter, at least according to those depth chart that I just pulled up. How long until Yaxel takes that? What's the overrunner? Why are we throwing key under the bus? I don't know if he has to take it. I feel like those two together could because Guy offers a lot. He's an eye-energy player like he does a lot of things. I think what? This is true. I know. It's just I feel like we're talking about like 10 day guys like they're well guess what? What half your roster is you support a player? Well players. This is how we talk about you. You nailed it with the decision tree thing though. It's like when we were when I was alluding to the not alluding to we're talking about like what happens whenever teams respond to Steph, that is a decision tree that comes down. And when you don't have talent around Steph, it's just dead end. And when you have like a Yaxel who was a very productive post-player individual one, he ended up being a great pick and roll operator. He just the decision making tree is not a dead end when you have a talented virtual player like Yaxel. Let's think about it the other way too, which is not when will Yaxel in a book take the starting spot. But how much value is there and bring him off the bench where he can also be a reasonable Dremond alternate in a lot of these actions. You know, he can do things that the other supporting warriors can't. And so if you need a secondary playmaker, another facilitator in some of those lineups, he's going to be your man. All right. Any other guys or things? I mean, can we actually talk about Guy Santos for a second? Sure. - I just think for a team in Golden State's position, getting him on an extension for three years, 15 million is like a low key super important. Their books are absolutely cooked. They're a mess. They have so much high in salary to get. He was fourth in minutes on last year's team. Weirdly important to everything Golden State has going on and is like ballast for this lineup and rotation. Just keeping him around, a guy who is active and useful. Again, the bar is low, but-- - Ballast, one of Rob's favorite words. - It is. - Put it in there, sound me up. - Sorry. - But, Gisanto's good. The warrior's keeping him around for all the flack that front office takes. A weirdly essential piece of business for them. Every breakout squad has to earn its spot and during the holiday, Sam's Club is the club that helps you earn yours. Whether you're a part of the deal hunters club or the last minute gift givers club, Sam's Club has the name brands you want without blowing your budget. Come join us, Sam's Club. Why don't we take a quick break? We'll come back and do the rest of these teams. - Absolutely not. We have one more bit of business. - Okay. - I'm just, I'm looking at Golden State's rotation, right? - You're real, you're going for something today. - Was it the sweater, comment, it did it, man. - You did it, you did it, you did it. I didn't see him ever since then. I'm just trying to rest control this podcast back from you. No, I'm just, look, Christophe or Zingas, who knows what's going on with him health wise. Al Horford, his season's gonna have to be managed, right? George and Yang, eh. Like, we'll see kind of how much he ends up being part of this team draws. Bassy, look, I already talked about it. Our nation, once again, turns its lonely eyes to Malphite Leons. I'm just saying he's on this team. - Great. - I'm looking at who's gonna be playing Minutes. I really don't see a way he's not playing consistent Minutes for the Golden State Warriors. Do you think Steve Kerr has it in him to bury? My guy may be our guy, Malphite Leons. - So, they're both on train tracks. Charles Bassy, Malphite Leons, two different ones. Who are you saving? - I mean Leons obviously. - Okay. - You know, let's go. - The oddity, it just is, it intrigues me. You stick with the one who brought you. - Who brung you? - Yeah, there you go. - This has been one of your champion things that you've done over the years, and I support you. - I just think if he's on a team, we have to at least mention it. - Yeah, okay. - All right, now we're actually gonna take a quick break. We come back, we'll talk about these other three teams. - This episode is brought to you by Sam's Club. During the holidays, everyone's in a club. The cool aunts club, the food coma club. Whenever a holiday club you're in, Sam's Club is the club that helps you pull it off. You need to get a meal on the table in under two hours, done. Shopping for the brands they want, like Aura Ring and Kitchen Aid, without blowing your budget, check and check. - All right, number 18, the Portland Trail Blazers, and the people of Portland have spoken. They heard our calls to have me throw out a first pitch, something that I just thought of in the moment as we were talking on a previous podcast. And the Portland Pickles actually reached out, confirmed that there are real thing on like Rob was suggesting. - I just had questions. - And they wanna have me throw out a first pitch at a future game. How about that? - How's that gonna go? Can you throw a baseball? - Great. - Yeah, how's your form? Why are you questioning this? - I don't know, man. - No, I've seen you play basketball. - Have you? - Have you really? - A long time ago. - A very long time ago. - Very quite long time ago. - I have been working on my game. You don't know what, I know those drop steps that I have been. - What's in my car, man? - Mechanics. - You know, I see a lot of like this with Justin G. - I insulted Rob, I'm just, I just. - Mechanically sound, just not a lot of much there. - I would say a guy running around out there, but there also wouldn't a lot of running around out there. You know? - Okay. - I see a lot of kind of flailing finishes. I don't know. - He was in the mix too. - Yeah. - I didn't really play, so I was just, I was getting some cardio. - Yeah. - Got that. - Doing his thing. - But we need to know about the throw. - Okay, is there any minor league baseball team asking you to throw out the first pitch? - I'm available. - Okay, well, don't do that. Okay, no, teams out there, don't ask Rob because this is a special thing for me. - You're right, you're right, you're right. - We're running, we're running for it. - And in fact, I mean, if it all possible, I would love for Kyle and I to be able to attend. I would love to, we can't go. - No, no. - But they did send us hats. - Wow, I was hoping that we could all wear them together for the segment, unfortunately, they sent them after I had already lost. - Los Angeles, but I'll get them to you guys eventually. I'm gonna be wearing mine regularly 'cause I'm a pickle diehard now. - Writer die? - Pickler. - What's the league that they're in again? - It's a. - I think it's in the American league. - No, somebody said the name, I just didn't know what it was. - Yeah, they're in a great fruit league. - Okay. - Sure. - We're not gonna do the name three guys on the pickles. - Are you into you, don't worry. - Are you gonna be able to throw a strike? Is this like, are you gonna be like 9/11 George Bush? - Yeah, he's gonna say about their like W. - I'm gonna be throwing slurves out there, man, you know? - Okay. - I got a bag. All right, well if we're not allowed to go, we at least need to see video. - I mean, you could come if you want, but I'm not gonna get you free tickets. - I wouldn't ask it for him, you know? - The bitterness is incredible. - Why? - You just didn't believe in me as a first-pitch guy or the pickles, why would we invite you to lovely Portland? - We just wanted to know what was in your repertoire, you know? - Okay. - Well, I look forward to that happening and wearing a pickle on a future podcast. But the Portland Trailblazers, unfortunately, don't have as much hope for surprising. I was actually one spot lower than you guys on the blazers this year. I mean, we've talked about it a bunch. I just, the momentum that they had last year I thought the plan should have been to carry that on, allowed Denny, empowered Denny, bringing Dame, maybe bring in some more shooting, and just go from there, especially considering like, Denny only has about two years on his contract left. They can't really negotiate and extend him because they don't have the money to do so now. So he's just gonna be a big ol' free agent two years and so I feel like this is the time you really want to be like, tailing Denny, like, you are the future. They bring in Ja, things just become way more complicated for a lot of reasons we're gonna talk about. And so I think they'll be good. I think the defense probably won't be as good as it could be yet again. And so that's why I had them kind of in this morass of West teams who could be decent playin' and if things go right, maybe a little above that. - Yeah, it just feels like everything is gonna have a trade-off to it. And so you're bringing a more talent, you are adding in theory some more shooting, like having Dame back in a Blazer's uniform on the court is gonna be such a cool thing. But then you're making defensive concessions, you're making spacing concessions otherwise. You're having to trade off in your rotation, who you're playing as you're supporting parts. I just, I think they're gonna be in a similar place in the grand scheme of how their season turns out, which is probably mid-off, fodder yet again, kind of like right in that mix. It's just hard to see how they're gonna chart away out of that with this group. 'Cause even if things go super well, you're gonna then commit to John Morant as like a giant part of this team moving forward. Like, what does that mean? I have many, many questions about the Portland Trail Blazers. - Yeah, I'm a little surprised. Normally you're like chugging the Portland Pickle brine and you usually, you know, - I would say, I was appropriately measured considering that they were pretty good last year. - Okay, that was all over it. - You were all over. - Well, I think you've just chosen to kind of like, turn to particular corners of the roster. - The timber of your voice, when we bring up the name Donovan Klingin changes. - It jumps across. - I still think it probably will in this conversation. That's probably one of the bright spots. But I mean, you have a coaching change here, obviously. So the synergy between we talked about, like, you know, Tiago, I don't know how much or little he was instrumental in the Denny, the Denna Sons. What, was that ever used Denna Sons? - You just did it. - Yeah, there we go. But, yeah, Rob, I think you nailed it. I think in courting the talent that they did and then bringing back Dame, which feel good story. It's the concessions, I think, are gonna be an interesting thing in the guard. The dissonance among the guard group is gonna be, I could foresee that being a pretty frustrating storyline for Blizzard fans. - Yeah, why don't we just get into the essential question now, which is, I asked you guys to rank these four guards based on your projection of overall impact at season's end. So it's Dame, Ja, Drew, Scoot, Shiden Sharp, not available at the stage because of the injury that he had, which is unfortunate because, you know, he's making modest progress. I think there was a very big season for him with the blazers to see where he really fit into the future, not gonna be around for a very long time. So those four guards, where would you guys, how would you rank them based on what you see in the future? What do you think, Kyle? - I thought about this, this is a good question. - I could be proud of it. - Thank you. - Because I kept just being like, man, and second guessing and I'm still gonna second guess it. Overall, like, holistically what he adds in both directions, we're talking about the concessions and things. The only player that really has the potential to answer both of those and can see very little is Drew. - Yeah. - Drew, you know, 36 years old. He kind of started to decline. Maybe that's a result of the just assemblage of defensive talent that Boston had put him in a great situation. Comes to Portland, asked to do a little bit more, asked to be a little bit more of a decision, like a heavy load decision guy. I put him just in totality. I thought that he would end up at number one. I'll zag a little bit here. Predictively zag, I don't know how you all are gonna feel, but I think we might see a little bit of a jaw resurgence. - Okay. - He's still young. We're heading into the prime years. The frustration, I mean, obviously he was off the court for a number of reasons with the Grizzlies and we kind of forgot and he forgot. So it seemed or just chose to forget about what made him successful. He was driving the ball less. The shooting fell off of a cliff. I think that we could get something out of him with this team, with the paint touches and things defensively. It's gonna be a question. Third, I think, Dame's impact is similar to Drew's in that it's holistic to me. I have him at three. If he is willing to buy into being kind of not a purely on ball guy in a way that's harmful to their guys developing or eating into Denny and he's bought into being like an off ball mover as a shooter, he's still an elite shooter and I think that he could help the team. And then fourth, just by like, as a victim of consequence, a casualty of the situation, I think it could be scoot. - Yeah. - And the hard part about this is that like, scoot might be ready to do more and just not get the chance. So I haven't met for it. - So I went Drew, John, Dame, Scoot. Justin, where do you kind of prioritize these in terms of who you think is gonna have the biggest impact? - I have Drew, Dame, Scoot, John. - Wow. - Okay. - So I have John last. - Well, let's go through the job part. 'Cause I'm with Kyle that I don't know that I see over surgeons, but I think his individual production is gonna be pretty significant. Like he's John Merant. - I think he has to be just because of the way he plays. They've already started talking about him getting more catch and shoot opportunities, which he's more comfortable for him, but like, I don't set the public on fire. - Exactly. - But that's where you're at, right? You have to do something with him when he's off the ball. Otherwise, he needs to be on the ball a lot. Danny wants the ball, Dame wants the ball. And so like, I think that sort of overlap is gonna naturally lead to him just like only having a certain utility, which is why I have drew up front for the same reasons Kyle did. It's just like, I think he's gonna be more essential. They also don't have a ton of wings. So they're gonna rely on him to play and guard up more than he was even last year. And he did a lot of that. I just think injuries are just such a lesser story about him because it gets lost in the mix of all the other stuff going on off the court. It's just like, he just isn't available. He's a wispy guard who just wants to play recklessly. And when he's not doing that, he's just not playing at the same level that he needs to be. So I think the unfortunate truth is that one of these guys, Damien or Josh, probably gonna get hurt. And it's just gonna clarify things for that reason. And Josh is probably the most likely subject there. - I mean, Dame is pretty likely too. I'm not trying to wish this on anybody. I genuinely cannot wait to see Dame back on the floor. But he is a 36 year old guard coming off of an Achilles tear. - Yep. - So he likes to have the ball in his hands. Even when he doesn't, is a good mover without it. That's been a huge part of his game for a long time. And so he's not gonna be the Damien Lillard that we know and love. It's gonna be a different version of that guy. And that player is gonna have to be managed throughout the season. - I also think though that Dame's biggest asset to this team is just as emotional like you. - Absolutely. - So like his leadership abilities. And so I think if anyone's going to take it back, see, be more willing to allow guys to have the ball to play a less like physically impactful style that might wear on you more would be Dame. And so for that reason, I think he's gonna be, they're gonna have to pay some, they're gonna be conscious of it. But they just need him to shoot. Like if he just puts up shots, like that is gonna have a certain value to this. - And when we're ranking the value of these guards, I mean, the number one thing you can do if you're any of these guys is play well with the other guards. And so that's why we have drew number one, right? There's no if-ans or butts about what he contributes. Less as like a lead ball handler more like alongside jaw, alongside Dame, alongside school. Like he makes sense with all those guys. Dame shooting does open up those avenues. And that's one area where jaw for all of the good parts of his game and how great a driver he can be, he does limit you to a certain style, he does take certain things off the table as those are looking to the top. He does kind of change who you want around him because you do have to be very conscious about the fit and the spacing. - A couple or three just sort of like stealthy subplots here for this team that are new variables. One thing that's beneficial here and you see this sometimes when coaches change teams is that Mike and Nori has prepared for jaw extensively. - Yes, deep familiarity with him. That could be helpful in some way and I could see them finding some, that could be helpful. And then there's a couple of just basketball elements here that I think they're adding to this team that they didn't have in the past. Number one is that jaw, win bought in, win invested, win focused is an elite paint touch creative kick out guy. They don't have anybody like that. Like not even remotely close. So that's something that they could weaponize. And then pick up point. One thing that Dame still has is he is one of the best deep shooters of all time. That pick up point threat is going to pull defense out of the center zone of the transition offense. And I think that's gonna be helpful to their long athletes. And then when he has the ball in his hands it's gonna change the geometry of the floor. Is he the same Dame of the past? No, but I think that you could get creative. I mean, we'll see, I guess I can't say that for certain, but statistically we'll say he will. But I think those are elements that they could use and tinker with that they didn't have life. - Well, we've seen the impact that that kind of space in that like four point line spacing for lack of a better term can have, even if one guy is a real threat from out there. And so yeah, parking Dame can be a real pull on a defense. I think that can help. I'm also very curious to see the effect that Jon might have on the team's turnovers. Like the Blazers were absolutely sloppy. Like one of the sloppiest teams in the league in terms of their ability to spray the ball around to share it to get into flow on offense. They said no cohesive dissed all of that went. Jon's best Grizzlies teams were really low turnover teams. And they had more shooting. They had a slightly different build. But a lot of it was the creative kind of kick out that you're talking about Kyle where he was such a good driver. He's such a good improviser mid-air. And some of that needs to change as his body changes over time. But if he can bring their turnovers down to just like a slightly more reasonable level by having the ball in his hands, I think their offense can get much closer to league average from where it was last season. - I think the case for Jon is not only did they not pay anything for him, it was just Jeremy Grant and Chris Murray. They didn't even attach to pick to him, which is crazy to think if we were to flash back three years or two years ago with Jon, just like considering his trajectory he was on. The other part of it is like what they actually needed was the type of thing that you only get from superstar players, which is what they need to paint touches. They need a guy who drives the ball, but also is able to shoot. Like they needed a superstar creator. And it's just like those guys aren't just growing on trees. And so they had to really like thread the needle on the type of guy they were getting. I think if you also want to be an optimist, you would say this team was very prone to shoot. They just did not shoot successfully last season. And I think you could see some internal growth from some of those guys. I think Denny in particular. So he spent the first half of his season just basically being the entire team. And then the second half of the season hit dealt with the back injury, didn't get many up and when he did they looked awful. I didn't even think he was going to make it in the playing game, but he actually started to kind of rebound into form as-- - Rebound. - Regain form? What would you say? - I like rebound. - He rebounded. - He rebounded. So like there's that. Tumani's always going to be, you know, touching go there. They did, I mean, Vick Kreechi, we should mention, we're going to the guys and things. - I feel like I've mentioned him too much already. The crazy thing is like, if he's done anything throughout his career, it's shoot, right? And shoot successfully. He gets the Portland, can't make a goddamn thing. And so you would hope history would win out there and he would finally be able to give him exactly what they traded for last deadline. - Yeah. - And so there's enough there that's workable. It's just how do you deal with the overlap without sacrificing your biggest asset, which is your defense. So they finished 12, defensively last year. I think they could have been way better. They never really like clicked in a way that I think that where they found a groove and they were dominating there. Like the start of the season when they were going all wings with thigh bowl and all those guys, Jeremy Grant, it's like, there is something workable here. That could be your identity. They never really got there. And if anything, you're sacrificing that by trying to work with these small guards. - Yeah, there's going to be too much either or in the rotation decisions around those guys. And that's one area where I hope Denny can change shape a little bit in a positive way. - I think the reality is with Damon Ja on this team, Denny Abdi is not going to be an all-star again. Like that's just probably not in the cards. He's not going to have the numbers, the production, the drive of the offense in the way that he did to draw all that attention to get awards consideration. - Literal drive. - Yes. - He's going to be really good. And I think you identified something really important, J.V., which is like his shooting numbers. I just fully expect to go back to where they were over previous seasons. Not just because hopefully he'll be healthier, but he's a good catch and shoot player. He's just not a great pull-up shooter. And so if you can put him in more off-ball situations where he's attacking weak sides, but also just getting clean or three-point looks, that'll help. And then as it relates to kind of tying the team together, Denny Abdi was also like quite a good defensive player. And when you're asking him to carry the offense, you just can't also expect that he's going to do full-board defensive assignments all the time. And so if he's sharing the ball, maybe more of his energy goes towards defense again, and you can find some balance that way. - I thought what Nori was saying at the preseason press conferences was interesting on one hand, we won't change what Thiago did with Denny because what he did was successful, he would be crazy to do that. On the other hand, he didn't make a point being like, we need to get him defending in the way that he used to back in the Wizard's days. And he's right because he definitely fell off considerably on that end. And so if there's like a middle ground there where he still gets his Denny time to circle back to like the Bosch time of years ago, like where he could be the empowered main guy, plus be the defensive kind of stitching the things together. Sort of guy that he was previously, like that seems like an idea, but that's not an all-star. And like if you've seen that you could be that player to go back to that is a really hard step. - Yeah. - It takes a physical toll on you to play the way that he played at or down here that he was, let's see, first in the league and drives per 100 possession, and third in the league and personal fouls on drive. So he's getting hit a lot. We were talking about the Blazers just, they could get to the door but they just couldn't walk through it and so many different, you're talking about the decision making tree. They were, this is a wild stat. They were fourth in the league and presented to the time that they got paint touches, 66.6, and they were 30th in the league in points per chance when they got to the paint. So this is a team that relied on ramming their heads into the wall and creating offense that way. And you're getting into some of these playoff teams, it's just an inevitability in a reality that when you see a Victor Windman Yama or whoever it is, like we're Chad Holmgren, those are the questions you have to answer if you want to level up and be serious. The grifting is going to be an all time high, which is what kind of was basically implying that Danny got pretty bad at it. It was hard for him. It was tough to walk sometimes. If you're getting called out in public by other NBA players on a frequent basis, I mean, these guys are all trying to protect their livelihoods on that. - Do we want to talk about the rule thing that was tweeted? - Why not? - Do you see how much does that affect any, I mean, to speak to this, detailed that the NBA tweeted out with a great presentation of clips, that they were gonna cut back on arm-barring in the paint, which is chronic among superstars. I mean, they mysteriously omitted one person from this silent reel of examples. - Well, do we want to name names? I would say this is Shae. - Shae's not in it. - Danny Shae, Jalen Brown. - Jalen, Jalen wasn't in it. - Well, I'm just saying as far as the prime culprits. - Shae wasn't in the video. - Not at all. - Wow. (laughing) I love Shae, but come on, man. - Pretty interesting. - It is pretty interesting. - And I love Shae, but what, I mean, do we have anything to say about that? - I mean, it could have a tangible impact on his play. I just think, like, referring points of emphasis, too often we have seen, they are called that way for one month, and then everyone forgets and moves on. So, let's check in, come December, and see if this is still a thing. - What's your point of emphasis at the beginning of every season that you say, we're cutting back on this, that in like a month's time, you're back. - Oh, it's a great quote. - I mean, honestly, take out. - What's the game start like? (laughing) - It's true. I'm so focused on doing push ups and stuff in the morning when the season starts. - Yeah, I'm so focused right now, you know? - But how healthy will you be? Can we sustain it? - You should just on the pickle diet right now, yeah. - That's right. I do think some of the grifting from Denny will be counterbalanced probably from the dark arts of the superstar calls from Dame and Joss, so perhaps there's like some balance there. But I will say, like, in addition, like some of the other moves they made this off scene, I thought they were all, like, golf claps, like, oh, I like that guy, like Michael Potter, too. - Brandon Carlson, a guy whose name I will never be able to say, because I always think it's braiding Carlson or Brandon Carlson. - We're just, we're just students, namely guys at this point. That are these, do you have, are those real factors? These are guys and things. - I kind of think Michael Potter should play. - Especially with the stretch. - That's the thing. When they get into those real, like, mud slide games, and they're just, they cannot get anything going, and they just start taking bigs off the floor, Michael Potter can, I'm not gonna say he's a great five, but you can plausibly put him out there for a couple of minutes and not get absolutely roasted. And so I would be shocked if he doesn't factor in it's like a change of pace player for them. - Sure. I think they have one of the best big man rotations in the league, because not only did they bring Rob Williams back, who's probably, if not, along the best backup centers in the league. - That's rewind. You think they have one of the best big man rotations in the league? - Yeah. - Donovan, Kling and Rob Williams, Michael Potter, Young Hanson? - Well, Carlson, too. - And Carlson. - That's why the best big man rotations in the league. - I was specifically referring to Kling and Rob, because Rob is the backup center in the league. Kling and Rob are the best. - You hate Kling and. - Kling is a good player. And when you stop talking about it, you guys are just so polarized. - I mean, I can't tell you how many advanced stats, like tweets I've seen just being like, "Domin and Kling and best player in the league." Like dominating on both ends, like perfect shot diet of threes and just at the basket, because you can't take any other shots. - You realize some teams have like, Victor Webinyama on that, right? - That's automatically the best. - Victor Webinyama, Luke Ornette is better than this. I don't know what to tell you. - Even if it's like me instead of Luke Ornette. - That's why I qualified it as rotations. - Not voting. (laughing) - I'm working. - Don't worry, I got it. - I'm worked up. Rob's getting me going to say. - Kling, Kong! - If we were just saying to the best center in the league, I would not bring up Don and Kling. - That's, that's restraint. Which is why I said rotations, which is a different call. - I appreciate it. Don and Kling, it's good. Rob Williams is good. I like who they have there and who they can kind of toggle between and rotate between. They're good options to have for the Blazers. - Would you rather have Rudy Gober and Yo on Barron J? Or Rudy Gober and Yo on Barron J? - That felt like a distance. - It's close because Barron J are reassuries. - It's who we think he is. - Everyone's gotten over their skis on Barron J. He seems like a really interesting prospect. We'll see if he comes in as a good NBA player. - Oh no, it's really not close because Rudy Gober is a very good player. - Again, we're just focusing on one player. We're talking about two guys. - I think if you're a center who's playing 30. - The cumulative points, you know, if Rudy has a hundred and Barron J has two, that's 102. - Right, but you might not get to the same points total of Rob and Klingon if they're both like 60. - I don't think that's how it works. - Yeah it is, it's cumulative. I said rotation out player. - Yeah, you jerk. - If Rudy Gober is playing 30 to 35 minutes. - The nuggets in a rotation. - Also pretty good. - That's still not all of the minutes in a game. - So what you're saying is that the Blazers have one of the best backup centers in the league. - Yes, center rotations in the league. - I think that's incredibly generous to database. - You're now just nitpicking the specific verbiage in the game. - That's what we do here. Is it not? - No, that's what you do. - I mean, also fair. - Anything about the Blazers? - One, let's bring the temperature down. - You started shouting. - Actually, you know what? Let's not bring the temperature down. Let's redirect it somewhere else. I think that's the important thing here. Mike and Norey very famously brought in as the head coach of the Blazers with one guaranteed year under contract. Absolute dog shit stuff as far as hiring a coach goes. But more than that, hiring a coach with one guaranteed year to coach a John Merrant Damien Lillard reformed team on the fly, I just think it's like a real tough ask for. Like I can see, I'm not trying to take Mike and Norey's legs out from under him, but like getting to lame duck status with one guaranteed year is a really fast path. And I hope Mike and Norey gets a real chance to do this. I hope everyone is kind of on board and trying to be their best selves in a part of this team. But there's a version of the Blazer season that goes absolutely sideways. And he's the one who ends up taking a fall for it. And I don't think that's particularly fair. - The head coaching swipes and opportunities are just really hard to get. - Yeah. - You know, he saw this and saw it as a chance to bet on himself, I guess, but you're right. I mean, it's a, it's a tall mountain despite the pieces that they do have. - We don't need to get into the ownership stuff, but yes, obviously. - Yeah, it's, it's not great. - Better than it was, but it's not great, right? Or is it just that they placated him? So, baby's not crying anymore? Is that kind of what you're saying? - Yeah, as, as we're recording this, I would say the temperature has turned down considerably. Mostly because they're doing all these negotiations and private and thus they're being more careful about putting a positive spin on that when they give statements about it. They did come out during media day. Their team president basically say that they wanted to be in Portland. So they're saying the right things now, which is a step in the right direction. - Sure. - They're actively throwing the city under the bus. So, the deadline is in December to come up with the deal. They gave them a whole ton of public money in order to rehabilitate a totally fine arena. And so, I would be surprised even if like, from a business standpoint, he didn't just take the deal because it's a pretty sweet deal and it seems all he cares about is just bleeding money out of his loyal taxpayers. - So, they still got that old monitor up there, that big jumbo-tron that you pointed to. You were like, look at this piece of shit. That's still in there. - I remember saying that, but they did change that last year. - I thought that had a charm to it. I don't even like the older arenas. - I think as character, but I guess if you're trying to core sponsors and people in suites, like, that's not what they're looking for. - We're also obsessed with analogue now. Why not just have a huge cathode ray up there? - It seems just a big record player. Why are we even messing around? - Prime time was totally in 4-3 and like, down. Why not, let's do it. - And they just complain about like, oh, you won't get like touring music, that has nothing to do with the blazers who are renting from the city now, 'cause the city owns the, it doesn't make any sense. Anyway, all right, number 17, the Atlanta Hawks. Probably the biggest benefactor from the O.K.C. trickle down effect that we've seen. The Hornets had a little run there with Meachage and Tray Man, but the Hawks basically just got two really good rotation players for virtually nothing. I do like the conspiracy theory that the Thunder specifically sought out the Hawks because the Hawks give their pick to the Spurs and they're just like, we wanna take the Spurs down a peg. Can't imagine it's true at all because the Hawks played this way and they prioritized defensive minded wings and so like a guy like Lou Dork makes a ton of sense. But I think it worked out pretty well for both parties. - Yeah, I mean, just being able to scoop up some of these guys for a team that was already pretty deep. A great coup for the Hawks. They're gonna be a really solid team. I don't know that they've addressed kind of their fundamental issues though. Like they were lacking for half court like star level shot creation when CJ McCallum wasn't walking on water. And they still are kind of in that place. I think they're waiting for Ken Jalen Johnson to take a jump in that way. And he doesn't particularly seem like that kind of player but sometimes guys just kind of turn over a new leaf as far as like a little bit of a mid-range one-on-one game. - Yeah, this team's gonna continue to be just a colossal pain in the ass when I give you a ball and learn the ease. The switchability on this team is gonna be holy smokes, we're adding door to Dyson Daniels, one of the best. I mean, we can talk about him more, but adding that to him. And then, but Jalen, yeah. - But not just him, like Nikkeel Kings and Flamings, like they got dogs out there. - Yeah, and I mean, they tried to address some of the half court stuff with like all the guys that they passed that they affordions looked there. That they drafted and brought in Henry Vesar. The guy that they picked up later in the second round in the Taurus ACL, so he'll be out. But they can all pass the ball. I think the big thing is, we saw in the playoffs that the Nix kind of figured them out. Once OG just kind of started picking up Jalen Full Court and just kind of forcing him into traffic. He's got a lot of things. His arc, to me, is similar to Busellis where he needs to get a little bit lower with the ball on traffic, he's gonna have to add more pull-up game that's dependable. Shot it decently on catching shoots. I guess a big question is just like how ready is Kingston Flamings to come in and be a part of this team? Because I think he's probably the most clever aside from CJ, like on-ball processor in the heck worth that they have, which is, I don't know if it's a compliment to the existing roster, but it's gonna be a helpful thing for them depending on how ready he is. - Well, there's been a little more speculation than I would have thought about who starts for this team, especially at point guard. Like do you start CJ, as he was in the playoff run? Do you start and heal there, which lets you put even more defensive wings on the floor, maybe Lou Dorrett first among them? And you could, to start Kingston Flamings out of the gate. If you feel like he's ready to be fast-tracked in that kind of way. Because it depends on can you count on Fleming's for the offensive side there because at the very least you can count on CJ to have a steady hand in an offense and it just doesn't feel like there is at this stage someone to turn to beyond him. Like you need a conductor for all these wing heavy guys because Jalen Johnson just feels like he needs someone there to at the very least like ride the little car in next to him and like make sure he's like pointing him in the right direction sidecar. Yeah the sidecar. But you could also wonder has the magic worn off from for CJ? I mean like I thought last year was a pretty miraculous turn of events considering where he is at the stage of his career. I thought he was done when he got traded by the Wizards but they brought him back and in the hopes that he could at the very least try to reprise what happened in the playoffs. I'm not so sure but they have a lot of options and I wouldn't be surprised if they turned to them very quickly. Yeah I think the options they have as far as juggling basically every part of the rotation is what makes the hawk so exciting. Like if you want Lou Dorit to be your primary starting defender against the superstars of the league you could do that but you already have Dyson Daniels and so do you bring Lou Dorit off the bench does that mitigate what he does well? Does it open up some other part of his game or something else in the rotation? I just think there's there's so many choices that have to be made in a way that honestly it's like kind of dizzying like this depth can sort of cut both ways where it gives you a lot to work with but it also means every game out you have to make so many active decisions about how to manage this group to the best possible effect. Well let's get to the question I hand here which I have down is one is a land of the deepest team in the east and two I'm wondering how much that matters as the top of the east becomes better more star driven like will depth matter as much if the quality of the teams are going up against his will deeper I think about it less in terms of the end game and more about how do we get there and so I would say that the hawks depth insulates them from the kind of like disaster or near debt disaster scenarios that would take one of these eastern conference contenders and just like knock them out of the race they're going to be there like the hawks I feel I feel more certain about the hawks placement and I think we all do because this is one of the few teams we were in complete agreement on in terms of our ranking that like we know where they're going to be and we know where they're going to be because even if CJ misses time even if the keel misses time even if jalen johnson misses time they have so many pieces where they're going to get through the regular season I just don't think it's going to help them beat the nicks and the sixers and the Celtics and the pace like some of these other like really the even the heat at that point who they are in the playoffs to me is a very different question but they're going to be so rock solid in the regular season that to me is a tribute to their depth yeah I think they're going to be in a in a good kind of middle because of that depth because we're talking about all the it's interesting we talking about all the solid kind of choices that they're going to have but also still a lot of questions to be answered if they answer those questions in the short term it'll be interesting to see how this year goes but I think we're all kind of in the same spot where it's like the star power isn't quite there but I think that they're probably going to be in a similar position that they were in last year where they just kind of scared the nicks and forced the nicks to kind of figure out their shit maybe they credit them for that I don't know but I kind of expect because they were so easily solvable like I was saying it's like the and I was like revisiting some of those games in the playoffs against the nicks it was like once they solve them yeah those were some of the ugliest way out games I've ever seen so we'll see if they get handcuffed CJ in the basement and that was really it was just like there's no there are no utilities in this house anymore yeah yeah I mean we see it time and time again it's just like team that just have waves of guys they could just withstand more in a regular season it's just like it's been a truism about the NBA for a very long time at the regular season the playoffs are a different style of basketball but now it just feels like a completely different game and the divide is growing seemingly by the year and so I guess my question ultimately is like we think they're going to be rock solid but then can they take a pacer's like leap where they take that strength and turn it into the sort of thing that overwhelms some of the star power that's forming at the top of the east like if they're going against a team like the raptors for instance who all of a sudden has a lot of horses up top but maybe don't have the depth like can you dominate the minutes where they're going to their their second units and that just becomes such an overwhelming advantage at the very least like you're getting farther than people would have expected maybe not the finals maybe it's the second round maybe even the eastern compromise I think the variable there that they don't have is Tyros Halberd like they don't have that high-end catalyzing style like setting kind of player I'm gonna dig in here I'll let you finish no no let's hear it I'd like that you said that the more I've been just sitting here and thinking about it I'm just gonna put my money where my mouth is I think I think that flimmings is a force multiplier like I love that I think I really have a lot of confidence in that kid because he's very bright he plays a style that is extremely early point five like sort of yeah it's a taste I'm sniftering because it's just the thing in basketball you're a rookie sommelier well as soon as we start really getting into it's it's the thing in basketball that I love the most is like that that early point five sensibility where guys just and and he was such a tactic he was the best guard at summer league in terms of like his half-core tactician brain and I think that he's going to be mature enough to come in and like he doesn't need to score a ton of points but it's very Halberd and he I've said it a lot about him that I I really think that he's going to impress people and I think he's going to help this team in the short term I can't I didn't even didn't mean to step on no no I would love that outcome for them and that's kind of again the wildcard element that they're missing the guys that they're picking up from the thunder the other elements of this rotation yeah Jalen Johnson is popping off Nikhil Alexander is still growing Alexander Walker still growing but it's like we know who Aaron Wiggins is we know who Ludo Dort is and so what is the mystery element here that could take them to the kind of different level or outcome you're describing just and I think I hope it's Kingston Flummings that would be that'd be really awesome to see the flip side of this if Flummings doesn't become that player they're obviously suited to swinging for a star trade if it does become available it seems like that's happening less and less these days like we had a very active offseason but like in the midst of a season like guys who are like gonna change the impact of like the trajectory of the title race just doesn't seem like it's happening as much and so I'd be surprised but like they seem suited for it all those wings that they get from the thunder they could just package together here short-term deals players that will get you by and then we'll just give you some prospects and picks and like we'll go from there I don't know I don't know if that's the way the league works anymore and I think that's the flip side of this where it's like teams that are successful build more like the Hawks than they do like the big three he and so maybe the model is to just find a guy in lower in the draft and all of a sudden you just made the right pick it's just to pick well rather than to attract a guy to a certain market yeah so I don't know any other guys are things we just talk about Nikkeel yeah we probably need to talk about some of these core guys more than we get into the kind of the deeper cuts I mean Nikkeel even the fact that we're talking about him as the potential starting point guard of this team but also can be a wingstopper also is an incredible off-ball mover he he is kind of the rosetta stone that makes a lot of this possible like Jalen Johnson is incredibly versatile and we talk about that as a playmaker and a defender and kind of a shooter and kind of a slasher but Nikkeel moving around the floor and all the capacities that he can't especially on offense I think it's what makes like it like allows you to talk about Kingston Fleming's in a very realistic way as a starter allows you to cover up what some of CJ doesn't do well what they found in him I'm like stunned by even still like seeing it was just one of the great development stories in the NBA year over year over year and a guy I love watching on a nightly basis yeah just an incredible shooting leave I mean one of the best that we've seen in recent memory I guess the question is gonna be like is what it was that a momentary spike or does it continue I think it will other thing we should talk about is Dyson Daniel speaking of shooting anything like this guy gonna contribute offensively can we count on him to to be able to shoot the ball see I think this is one of those things it's like it's so glaring when it happens but on balance I don't know that I buy it like I think he's I think their offense is fine when he's out there and he does a lot of in-between stuff but it does I would like I would like him to shoot yes to take shots whether that's little runners in the lane or three I tried that I know that I know that our first took over he was like give him the green light it just but it's it's the only option I guess refusing to take them is not an option and so I I think it's one of those conversations we get into a lot because when it gets picked on it really gets picked on but by and large I'm just not as sold the Dyson Daniels is like a huge huge negative on an offense I think he's a fine acceptable palatable piece that you can work around for the most part but that depends on on on yaka acongo being a real deal continued shooter continued factor like you can't have multiple of those guys 20.7 on catching two threes last year for Dyson Daniels he's not a shooter yeah the problem is now that if they have options and if you're getting into more high leverage situations if you're getting to the playoffs it's like you're more likely to pull the plug in those sorts of situations like he's a totally fine in between sort of guy but like we're leveling up the hawks and they need to make the most progress offensively all right last team on the list here number 16 the Utah Jazz I would say we're coming off the fumes of the post deer and Peterson summer league we're like jazz about to win the West you know I think we got a little over skis and we're all culprits in that the trade for Walker Kessler I would probably do 99 times out of 100 they just got completely bold over with a package that I don't think you could say no for for a player wasn't available and really hadn't played to the level that the Lakers are assuming he's going to this year having said that big olvoid on their defense at center and I just don't know how they plugged that unless they like make some more moves in order to do so obviously Jeren Jackson is going to help there, but you're counting on use of Nirkitsch as your starting center. And as fun as the use of Nirkitsch triple double, like that helps your offense, which I don't think they're going to have problems with considering how much juice they have on that end. The defense is probably going to be pretty good. Well, I think this is another thing I'm kind of reaching for a term to describe this very specific feeling of you're talking up this under the radar thing that's happening. And then all of a sudden that player gets cast in a way too important role and nothing feels good anymore. This is just too much use of Nirkitsch, like I'm feeling real like bloggers remorse over this whole situation. Yeah. Yeah. The use of usage is going way through the roof. And so you're right. Like they probably were planning for Walker Kessler to still be the starting center on this team, even if the extension talks were a little dicey or whatever it was looking like at this time, but you get bold over by that offer, you make it. And now, even though this is the year where the guard rails kind of come off as far as the jazz being a competitive team, they do have huge considerations on defense that they now have to manage and mitigate and figure out how you're going to do this. Like Jared Jackson Jr. cannot be a full-time defensive five. Like that's not really in his, I think more than his rebounding skill set to do as much as anything. And so use of Nirkitsch is going to play. It's going to play a lot. Where will that leave Utah's defense overall? I'm really not too bullish on it, but I still am so excited about this season. Yeah. I mean, you just assume that they're going to bow a lot and have a lot and like play more for deflection because I mean, I mean, Jared naturally has always struggled with that, but he's going to be away from the rim. He split his time over the, he's always kind of split it a little bit and leaning towards the fore and played some five, but like you were saying full-time five, offensively, that's going to be amazing for them. I mean, they're going to just, I guess, lean towards outscoring people a lot of the time. I really have enjoyed the social clips where maniacally Will Hardy is like not, did you see this where he's not allowing them to see the, he sets the clock in a practice if people have never been to like a college or a pro practice or even a high school practice coaches do this. They'll set a clock for every individual task, be like, all right, we're working on a shell defense for 20 minutes. He kept resetting the clock like so that they didn't know when the drill was going to end basically. So to control their effort, which there was just a little thing. Should we do that on this pod? I can't know just this of how long we've been podcasting. There's no end. So don't, there's no phoning it in or winding it down, whatever, but they're going to score a lot of points, man. I mean, it's going to be, it's going to be fascinating. And like I said, if they, if they do approach, you know, rekindling some of the like Nurgic fulcrum action kind of magic that he had with Damon C.J. having him on the floor is going to be pretty good. Well, they're already doing that with Kiontail. Like they're already tapping into some of, some of that part of his skill set, which has been quite useful for the Jess. We say that we're tempering our expectations and yet everything we've said is just mostly glowingly positive, especially because like as we're looking at the rankings, we have them 16th in the NBA coming off of like a pretty disastrous run here. Not just last season, but the past couple of years have been really bad. That puts them seventh in the West, which still feels that the awesome, pretty high. Yeah. Kyle had them even higher. You had them 13th overall, which is just slightly higher than we had them. Yeah. It's just hard not to like what they have. I mean, it's just like so much fun, dynamic, skilled offensive players. Yeah. There's the individual player elements was just like, I want to watch Darren Peterson play. I can't wait to see what Darren is with this particular group. We just don't get to see enough Lowry Marken and anymore because they've been kind of holding him back from selective injuries and slow rehabs and all this stuff. That's what it is, I think, is the jazz have been so bad and they've been worse than they had to be. And so this year as much as anything is Will Hardy taking some of those guardrails away. And this is just like, let's see how good these guys are. Let's see. The offense has been like schematically interesting for a long time. Defensively, I think it really has depended on the group that they had this year. I expect to have its own problems, but it's a team that's been consciously holding itself back for so long. And I just want to see the jazz kind to go for it for once and that alone will be worth the price of admission. I would, I would extend the defensive thing. You talking about their concerns, even further, it's that the bookends of this defense are going to be rough potentially because you're talking about the room protection. I don't even worry so much about that as I worry about this team guarding the ball in a real way. In a Western conference, it's full of talent to ball intelligence going in a league. That's one of my biggest concerns for them and that could just have like a cascading critical effect on their defense. I mean, on ball defense, I think Markin and his their best on ball defender is at least in the starting lineup. And then when you get into the bench, it's probably like Josh and Kogi or something like that. Like Keonte, I guess one of attack, Darren Peterson, even Collier, right, sensible like these guys, some of them will try harder than others, but nobody is really stopping anyone in that group. Yeah, they brought in Josh green and the trade with the wolves, but that was always my concern with this team is that like, yeah, this could be scintillating like scorcher eyebrows on every possession with the two guards there, but like who is going to be playing? They don't have that typical 3 and D guy and I don't know where that's going to come from. This probably feels like another like step up before we make the giant leap forward, but just to put like a pin in like how long it's been in this wilderness where you're like, oh, they could be good if they wanted to if they just tried, which like God forbid, a fucking NBA franchise, one of the 30 tries playing competitive basketball. That's going to be fun. It was four years ago when Laurie Merkin and made the jump made his first all start team. Yeah. Four years. And we basically been saying like, oh, he's great. But like they have to put him on ice. We have to come up with injuries like just like that must suck as someone who was like ready to like play competitive basketball and be one of the best players in league, just like kind of having to play a waiting game. Yeah. I mean, some of that's the decisions that they make, right? We're talking about that with Devon Booker about what you are signing up for as a player. Right. Right. Laurie did sign up for more of this. And so maybe it's longer than he expected, but he did opt in. I think Laurie's going to be in the locker room with his headphones, I, it's my love. He does seem like a mid-late bodjovey kind of guy. I'm not going to play for real. Well, brings us to our question, not the singing, but Laurie is the big lead if you want. Yeah, please. A couple of other bars, maybe your bridge. Will the jazz have an all-star this season? And if so, who? I don't think so. No. You won't win enough? I think Mark and in is going to be good, and it's like inconceivable that he could make it. But I think they're going to be one of these teams that's pretty good, and they're going to have several kind of candidates who are going to hedge against each other. But also when you look at the West, it's like the thunder and spurs are probably going to have like three guys in play a piece. Maybe some of them will make maybe two more firm than others, but three in play. The wolves are going to have Aunt and Lamello, who's going to get a big fan vote in addition to however good the wolves are this season. Bookage, Luca Katie, I assume those guys are going to be there if they're healthy enough, Steph will be there if he's healthy enough. The game is in Phoenix, I believe, so I would think Devon Booker will probably make this team. I think he'll probably deserve it anyway. He thought a lot about this. Well, then you get into like the, I mean, I try to do my homework. I'll, you know, we'll try to try and answer the prompt. I think you hit the thing there where it's like, yeah, the thunder and the spurs might have three guys who qualify, will they ever, we'll both get three guys very rarely. And obviously they can be for the same sort of voting. And so I would say if they play well, if you, if they are, let's say the seventh seed around the time that all start voting happens, I could see them getting one like you, I could see it, especially the coaches like to have a representative for a team that is exceeding expectations. I think the question is if it comes down to these teams are all in the same range. Let's say Dallas, Utah, Portland, are they going to pick marketing over John Moran? Are they going to pick marketing over Cooper Flag? Like, you know, who are, who is the fan vote and the player vote and the coach vote kind of tilting toward, I guess it's coach only for reserves, really, who are they tilting toward at that point in time. I feel like the coaches honestly do till when they vote, you would think they would vote for the well-rounded players, the supporting players, the defensive guys. I feel like more often than not, they pick offensive drivers. And so I think someone like jaw, if he's having a pretty decent John Moran season, would probably make it over someone like Mark and almost they all hate him. Maybe this is a possibility. Do you think him, Silver, is going to win with an injury, replace him and be like, "John Moran, I know we haven't talked in a while, John, last I heard you were doing rehab, right? I'm going to go." What an incredible turn of events that would be. So I can see, I think the heart of the question is ultimately, will they have a player playing at that level? It sounds like we think approximately. If not Laurie, I think the big question is like, "Chante, seem like he was like knocking on the door of that level of offensive player." If this is an offensive tilt to team, which I think it will be, I mean, I just don't know that the primacy is going to be there necessarily for Keonte or I mean, I guess another question would be just like, is Peterson also going to have the oxygen to be a factor in the, you know, what's he going to have to do, be rookie to your conversation? We didn't talk about Jaren. You didn't have a bounce back here? Definitely could. Could get buried among some of the other offensive leaning guys, but if they're like, if they're really like top four West good at the stage of the season, they might want to get to. And maybe that's the case, right? I think what we're saying is that the jazz are going to have good players who are maybe in need of a narrative to get into the award's conversations. And that's why we're here. That's not only why we're here, but let's say by some stroke of whatever the Utah jazz are the eighth to tenth best defense in the league by the time voting is rolling around. And Jaren Jackson, Jr. is racking up blocks, looking like his old self defensive player in the year form, that's a case I could see kind of cementing and starting to get some momentum behind it. I also could see him as foul problem being exacerbated by the fact that they can't guard the ball. Of course. Anything else you want to mention with the jazz? We haven't talked about Ace Bailey who is kind of buried by circumstance, but one of the things that I love most about this jazz team is just the that they have a cross a bunch of different positions. What they do with that length is kind of an open question. And that's sort of the story of Ace's career too. It's like, are you, are you a bigger wing who's going to play like a bigger wing? Are you a bigger wing who's just going to shoot over the top of people, which is cool, but has its limits? I think Ace has the potential to be one of the better and more interesting bench players in the league with this lineup with this group, kind of plugging a lot of holes if he decides to kind of work into those ways. I just don't know what kind of player he is yet, even after a somewhat impressive season last year. Defensive Bayern's going to be huge for him because he has the potential to be like ad, like helpside rim protection. He gets to the freaking moon off of like zero. I mean, he just, oh yeah, great athlete super, super long and slinky. It's just like his investment and that's out of the balls of place where he could like really, really win over that coaching staff, I think, and get a lot more run and be more central because the shots are going to be like we said, it's even from last year this year for him. I mean, they're probably going to be tougher to come by. The cruel irony of landing on a team where, like, after wanting to have your own team and be the guy, he's the one who would make the most sense being forced into a role and being like, you have to fit around what we've got to establish, which is unfortunate. I still think we've maybe not talked enough about Darren Peterson because we're so excited about these other pieces, but how seriously should we be thinking about him as a rookie of the year candidate? What do we think he's going to be capable of in year one? What do we think he's going to be asked to do in year one? I don't think he'll get enough opportunities in order to be rookie of the year, which is accounting staff award. And so if Dante's already in that role, I mean, it's going to be hard for Peterson. This is my concern overall for them just as a back court do it. We've talked about this in the past. Do we see too offensive, just like spark plug, scores coexist in the same back court in the way that they are? I have overlapping skills, but it is incumbent on them to make sure that they do round out their games in order to allow for this other guy to have his one of you heard, but Darren Peterson's a point guard makes it, he makes it very clear that he is a point guard. Okay. I don't know what I don't, is that the role that he played last season? I think that I think that preference and circumstance might be at odds a little bit here because I absolutely think he thinks of himself as a center of the offense, everything ripples from me. Oh, I believe that. Yes. I think on this particular team, they might be most efficient similar to Charlotte. I think they might be most efficient to play through the bigs a little bit more just because the downhill stuff. It has been a question with him as it's been with Keonte. Keonte has like a dress with those things. What's going to be interesting is that Darren's pursuit like bucket lust has always sort of run the risk of flowing over into wastefulness. He is a brilliant shot maker for his days. He's got a lot of different tools. It's going to be interesting to see how they negotiate the margins of like hunt in a little too much because he can be brilliant. He'll probably have like a 40 point game. I wouldn't be shocked if that happens in his rookie year. It's just kind of negotiating those two things. It's going to be a challenge for I think for Will Hardy. That's that. I think that could be super fun to watch because I think one of the most undercover part of Keonte George's pop was, yes, he's had a ton of pick and roll usage over the first couple of years in his career. I think really what made him sing last year was curling off the ball all the variety of actions that the jazz were tapping into to put him in positions to score. It was not just like top of the floor, high pick and roll over and over and over. He was flying around and he's such a good shooter and he's turned into like such a good balanced player working off the dribble that if Darren Petersen slots into that same thing and has the shooting pedigree that we've been talking about, he should be a flame thrower for them. All right, let's wrap it there. That's it for part three of the preseason power rankings. How are you guys feeling? Exhausted. No, I'm alive. What are we talking about? This has been our liveliest episode yet somehow. Talk a little shit to Rob and he's off and running. There you go. There we go. All right. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. Thank you to Ben Cruz. We'll be back with part four on Monday. We'll talk to you then.